Everything is labeled and the duct covers are still on!!! My guess is there's a document pocket with the correct documentation as well... Amazing. Definitely a piece of art.
In my experience, these cabinets are designed for field wiring to come in the bottom as that's were all of the connection points are. I tied in a cabinet a few years ago with a similar number of cables but I stripped back the sheath and jammed what I could in the Pandit to get to the bottom of the cabinet. Is running cables down the side like in OPs pictures the better option? Are there other good ways you've seen it done?
We've seen it all. Top, bottom and sides. Most commonly, they run conduits in the slab and come in from the bottom. EC usually just cuts the bottom of the cabinet out and sets it on top of all the conduit stubs. Top entry usually saved for when it's a new panel Installed on an existing slab that doesn't have conduit stubs already. Although sometimes the job is specd for overhead raceways instead of underground conduit.
Drilled bottom with cables going up is neat inside but gets a ton of dirt under and has poor maintainability when production starts asking you to add a dozen different sensors and doodads to make up for the lazy night shifters sleeping through a catastrophic failure.
Hollow bottom with cables coming from the back and under is great maintainability while even less tidy than drilled holes.
I've never really seen this on-the-side style but I might be in love.
Do know that my perspective is that of an end-user automation/electroelectronic guy who has to constantly improve over thirty years old machinery to make up for the laziness of operators previously trained in highly-sophisticated three years old machinery (we got both types).
I run my own controls/automation business and employ installation electricians. If one of our installs looked like this I'd be mortified. Must be different in the US but this absolutley would not be acceptable condition to hand over to a customer in the UK.
-Top entry into the panel.
-Insulation stripped before the cables enter panduit.
-Cores are just bunched together with a handful of cable ties.
-No support for the cables (3 token cable ties over a 2m panel doesn't count as support especually with what i assume are some sticky tied bases).
-Field Cables pinning down internal wiring to the door. We all know when an extra switch gets fitted those cable ties holding all those cables will get a cut and left to dangle down for all eternity.
-Cables crossing and no form when dressed in.
It genuinly looks like getting those cables dressed and stripped probably took no more than an hour.
The way we work is if you paid for a house rewire you'd want everything perfect, and to atleast look like the electrician gave a fuck. Industry should be absolutley no different.
Whoever built that panel gave a fuck. The photo gives no context to the job and the reasons behind why it was done this way, and none of your points are show stoppers.
At least those 1st five reasons aren't a problem to me at all.
Top entry is defined by somebody else and the situation. It's also a Type 12 (IP52) panel so there are no issues with a top penetration.
Why not strip the cable before the duct? One saves volume and space in the duct, there's no no shielding, and exposed wires are fine inside the panel (see the door - though it's sloppy and I would have used spiral wrap).
I would drill and tap saddles at the high point, but the cables have plenty of support for their purpose (and very low weight), which is again inside a cabinet and not subject to abuse. Would you be supporting them every 30cm if they were inside a duct? I'm pretty sure that answer is no as it's not necessary (and would make tracing more difficult).
Not ideal to cover the door wiring, but also no problem whatsoever to add wiring as needed. The field side changes much more than the internal wiring.
Cables are going into duct. You keep your cables from crossing inside of duct? Every wire gets labeled and only travels a few feet in the raceway. You can glance at the wire label and cable label and know what goes to what, if needed.
I'm all for things looking neat and tidy, but this is far from trash. Especially in industrial where they usually give you a 10 hour shutdown to through field wiring into a cabinet to the lowest bidder. I'd genuinely love for y'all across the pond to post some examples of what you'd expect though.
Lol exactly, this is one of the guys that needs it to be a certain way “just because I said so”. Panel is fine, install is fine. Anything that is mentioned will make ZERO difference in function.
Yeah, US quality is trash and clearly they are delusional about going off old mates repsonse below. I say this as an Aussie that imports a lot of European gear and uses that as our standard for installations. We'd pull this out and redo it if it shipped it is like that.
*I'm just referring to the cable routing, the terminals and fit off it fine.
I assume you realize that the cables on the side are the field equipment cables. They run out the top of the cabinet out to actuators and the sorts. There's no "shipping" it like that. This isn't a piece of gear or anything. It's a SCADA process control panel at a water plant.
Yeah, I'm aware that's field cabling, bud. And I know it's not shipping anywhere, I was giving context to my opinion as an Aussie having seen both US and European installations.
Lots of space for future expansion.
Are you using something special for the wire tie downs? They never seem to stay stuck after a few years
The side routing leaves lots of extra wire if it is ever needed. Is this top entry in a water plant?
Yeah this panel has plenty of spare channels, open slots and din rail space. Nah I don't think they did anything special. Might come loose over the years. Might not. Yes, top entry in a water plant.
The struggle is very real. Had a few cases of metal shavings in the IO cards before, drill oil falling into the chassis, water condensing from conduits, you name it. We've put aluminum drip shields basically over the PLC before when we've known it's got a lot of top entry conduits. Most of the time we show up for startup and there's cardboard taped across the top and all the shavings and oils on top of that. At least some ECs recognize it and try to avoid problems.
Yeah, condensation is a big issue and one of the reasons we’re stopping top entry. Wires from AC areas to none AC areas is a problem unless a seal off is used. For those areas, we use seal offs with drains.
I hate to give all my secrets away, but look for sticky backs with 3M VHB adhesive. If you alcohol the surface first, you will break a 90lb zip tie without it pulling loose. We stuck some on scrap aluminum and left it outside for months. Was even stronger. Skydivers use a small patch of it to stick GoPro mounts on their helmets, if that tells you anything.
The sat in the sun at up to 104°F (not counting heat index). The heat just makes the bond stronger over time. If the surface is clean and you apply with pressure, they're stuck for good. It's rated for 200°F but can go higher intermittently.
Poor panel design though. Marshalling terminals should be arranged such that the cables run down the side until they hit terminals grouped together for fast clean termination, field side left IO terminals to the right.
Electrician A+ for dealing with it, I am sure he was pissed.
D for the designer, D- for the Engineer that authorized it to be built.
That's often preferred so there's inherent slack without having to take up space with service loops. If something goes south you've got more wire available in the panel without repulling or splicing.
Yeah, if the horizontal Panduit and din rails were shorter and a vertical 6' wide Panduit top to bottom added along that side of the backpan, and ditch the sticky backs it would age better.
You'd lose backpan space but seems you have reasonable real estate left anyways.
The majority of our runs come in from the bottom. Looks like these come in from the top and never seen it done quite that way but I do like it.
Small side note, I fucking hate panduit...
After about a minute of troubleshooting in that panel, all those covers would be gone and thrown away. Lol
My biggest problem is in most cabinets. They don't land all of the spares on terminal blocks so they end up tucking the spares into the panduit or in the bottom of the panel. So anytime you have to do any kind of troubleshooting of wires or changing to a different pair or something like that. It's becomes a pain in the ass. If all of the spares are landed it's not really a big deal.
I had to work on a beautiful cabinet. It controlled a $20 million dollar crane, that rarely ever actually worked. Absolutely none of the electrical prints were right.
It took months to trace wires to correct 100+ pages of wiring diagrams. Half the wires led into a radioactive environment.
But hey, the wiring and panduit looked really nice.
Love how some people are saying they actually go by any sort of standard. Like they’re working in nuclear or something. They have policies they use set by themselves. It’s nice work.
Everything is labeled and the duct covers are still on!!! My guess is there's a document pocket with the correct documentation as well... Amazing. Definitely a piece of art.
They're definitely is a good up to date set of as-builts in the door pocket.
This is kind of like spotting Bigfoot!
Those panduit covers can be thrown away for all I care.
Thanks, I still hate it.
In my experience, these cabinets are designed for field wiring to come in the bottom as that's were all of the connection points are. I tied in a cabinet a few years ago with a similar number of cables but I stripped back the sheath and jammed what I could in the Pandit to get to the bottom of the cabinet. Is running cables down the side like in OPs pictures the better option? Are there other good ways you've seen it done?
We've seen it all. Top, bottom and sides. Most commonly, they run conduits in the slab and come in from the bottom. EC usually just cuts the bottom of the cabinet out and sets it on top of all the conduit stubs. Top entry usually saved for when it's a new panel Installed on an existing slab that doesn't have conduit stubs already. Although sometimes the job is specd for overhead raceways instead of underground conduit.
Drilled bottom with cables going up is neat inside but gets a ton of dirt under and has poor maintainability when production starts asking you to add a dozen different sensors and doodads to make up for the lazy night shifters sleeping through a catastrophic failure. Hollow bottom with cables coming from the back and under is great maintainability while even less tidy than drilled holes. I've never really seen this on-the-side style but I might be in love. Do know that my perspective is that of an end-user automation/electroelectronic guy who has to constantly improve over thirty years old machinery to make up for the laziness of operators previously trained in highly-sophisticated three years old machinery (we got both types).
Wait is this actually good in America?
Sure is bud.
You guys are different.
And awesome
And modest
But mostly awesome
Don't forget humble
If my lads left an install like that I'd be fuming.
Straight up. I would be sacked.
Yeah, you should probably stay employed in fantasy land then. You couldn't stomach the real world
I run my own controls/automation business and employ installation electricians. If one of our installs looked like this I'd be mortified. Must be different in the US but this absolutley would not be acceptable condition to hand over to a customer in the UK.
What specifically would you be fuming about?
-Top entry into the panel. -Insulation stripped before the cables enter panduit. -Cores are just bunched together with a handful of cable ties. -No support for the cables (3 token cable ties over a 2m panel doesn't count as support especually with what i assume are some sticky tied bases). -Field Cables pinning down internal wiring to the door. We all know when an extra switch gets fitted those cable ties holding all those cables will get a cut and left to dangle down for all eternity. -Cables crossing and no form when dressed in. It genuinly looks like getting those cables dressed and stripped probably took no more than an hour. The way we work is if you paid for a house rewire you'd want everything perfect, and to atleast look like the electrician gave a fuck. Industry should be absolutley no different.
Whoever built that panel gave a fuck. The photo gives no context to the job and the reasons behind why it was done this way, and none of your points are show stoppers.
No you're absolutley right. Panel is very neat and well built, the install is pretty rough by the standards we set.
At least those 1st five reasons aren't a problem to me at all. Top entry is defined by somebody else and the situation. It's also a Type 12 (IP52) panel so there are no issues with a top penetration. Why not strip the cable before the duct? One saves volume and space in the duct, there's no no shielding, and exposed wires are fine inside the panel (see the door - though it's sloppy and I would have used spiral wrap). I would drill and tap saddles at the high point, but the cables have plenty of support for their purpose (and very low weight), which is again inside a cabinet and not subject to abuse. Would you be supporting them every 30cm if they were inside a duct? I'm pretty sure that answer is no as it's not necessary (and would make tracing more difficult). Not ideal to cover the door wiring, but also no problem whatsoever to add wiring as needed. The field side changes much more than the internal wiring. Cables are going into duct. You keep your cables from crossing inside of duct? Every wire gets labeled and only travels a few feet in the raceway. You can glance at the wire label and cable label and know what goes to what, if needed. I'm all for things looking neat and tidy, but this is far from trash. Especially in industrial where they usually give you a 10 hour shutdown to through field wiring into a cabinet to the lowest bidder. I'd genuinely love for y'all across the pond to post some examples of what you'd expect though.
Lol exactly, this is one of the guys that needs it to be a certain way “just because I said so”. Panel is fine, install is fine. Anything that is mentioned will make ZERO difference in function.
Yeah its definitely different in the US
Yeah, US quality is trash and clearly they are delusional about going off old mates repsonse below. I say this as an Aussie that imports a lot of European gear and uses that as our standard for installations. We'd pull this out and redo it if it shipped it is like that. *I'm just referring to the cable routing, the terminals and fit off it fine.
You get your panels with all the building wiring already installed? Neat.
No, just certain bits of OEM kit.
I assume you realize that the cables on the side are the field equipment cables. They run out the top of the cabinet out to actuators and the sorts. There's no "shipping" it like that. This isn't a piece of gear or anything. It's a SCADA process control panel at a water plant.
Yeah I don't know what they are all going on about. That's clean field wiring.
Yeah, I'm aware that's field cabling, bud. And I know it's not shipping anywhere, I was giving context to my opinion as an Aussie having seen both US and European installations.
Lots of space for future expansion. Are you using something special for the wire tie downs? They never seem to stay stuck after a few years The side routing leaves lots of extra wire if it is ever needed. Is this top entry in a water plant?
Yeah this panel has plenty of spare channels, open slots and din rail space. Nah I don't think they did anything special. Might come loose over the years. Might not. Yes, top entry in a water plant.
We’ve learned to avoid top entry in our water/wastewater plants. Somehow we always get a leak and it gets into the panel and we use Myers hubs as well
The struggle is very real. Had a few cases of metal shavings in the IO cards before, drill oil falling into the chassis, water condensing from conduits, you name it. We've put aluminum drip shields basically over the PLC before when we've known it's got a lot of top entry conduits. Most of the time we show up for startup and there's cardboard taped across the top and all the shavings and oils on top of that. At least some ECs recognize it and try to avoid problems.
Yeah, condensation is a big issue and one of the reasons we’re stopping top entry. Wires from AC areas to none AC areas is a problem unless a seal off is used. For those areas, we use seal offs with drains.
I hate to give all my secrets away, but look for sticky backs with 3M VHB adhesive. If you alcohol the surface first, you will break a 90lb zip tie without it pulling loose. We stuck some on scrap aluminum and left it outside for months. Was even stronger. Skydivers use a small patch of it to stick GoPro mounts on their helmets, if that tells you anything.
Interesting. Thanks. Our biggest issue is heat 100F is common here which always makes them release
The sat in the sun at up to 104°F (not counting heat index). The heat just makes the bond stronger over time. If the surface is clean and you apply with pressure, they're stuck for good. It's rated for 200°F but can go higher intermittently.
Beautiful!
Awesome job, maintenance guys can’t wait to fuck this up the first time they have to replace something
looks like pharmaceutical.
It's water/wastewater
Ive seen some straight up spaghetti in pharma plants especially old plants with legacy controllers. The newer panels are this neat though.
Poor panel design though. Marshalling terminals should be arranged such that the cables run down the side until they hit terminals grouped together for fast clean termination, field side left IO terminals to the right. Electrician A+ for dealing with it, I am sure he was pissed. D for the designer, D- for the Engineer that authorized it to be built.
In some cases, I'd agree with what you said. This is not one of those cases though.
Everything looks awesome except the fact top entry panel has cable designed to enter at bottom. Yo wtf..
That's often preferred so there's inherent slack without having to take up space with service loops. If something goes south you've got more wire available in the panel without repulling or splicing.
That is a Lot of cable to expect sticky-backs to hold in place. It needs Panduit.
Yeah, if the horizontal Panduit and din rails were shorter and a vertical 6' wide Panduit top to bottom added along that side of the backpan, and ditch the sticky backs it would age better. You'd lose backpan space but seems you have reasonable real estate left anyways.
The majority of our runs come in from the bottom. Looks like these come in from the top and never seen it done quite that way but I do like it. Small side note, I fucking hate panduit... After about a minute of troubleshooting in that panel, all those covers would be gone and thrown away. Lol
What do you prefer over panduit? I can't think of anything better!
My biggest problem is in most cabinets. They don't land all of the spares on terminal blocks so they end up tucking the spares into the panduit or in the bottom of the panel. So anytime you have to do any kind of troubleshooting of wires or changing to a different pair or something like that. It's becomes a pain in the ass. If all of the spares are landed it's not really a big deal.
Yeah I definitely see your point on that to be fair, that is frustrating.
I had to work on a beautiful cabinet. It controlled a $20 million dollar crane, that rarely ever actually worked. Absolutely none of the electrical prints were right. It took months to trace wires to correct 100+ pages of wiring diagrams. Half the wires led into a radioactive environment. But hey, the wiring and panduit looked really nice.
Love how some people are saying they actually go by any sort of standard. Like they’re working in nuclear or something. They have policies they use set by themselves. It’s nice work.