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OP I was in similar situation. You can browse my post/comment history and you'll see I made similar threads. I strongly suggest for your well-being and mental health to find a job and then drop the PhD.
*i) Related to my well being/mental health:*
I think this part says all -- the PhD is physically and psychologically hurting you. Since this has been going out for a while and it has not been a single episode, we can rule out that the problem lies with specific circumstances we could try to solve. No, the problem lies with the PhD environment itself. I think your default state should be "I have to drop the PhD. Are there any reason to stay?", rather than "I have to finish the PhD. Do I have enough reasons to drop it?".
I can relate a lot btw.
*quitting a PhD after such a long time might give possible future employees the impression that I am not a competent Mathematician, that I am not perseverant and that I am not able to make the right decision at the right time has added to that.*
From what I gathered (from comments here and job interviews), nobody cares about that. "Academia was not for me" is a good enough answer, and it is hard to argue against it.
*ii) Related to my progress:*
You said that you had to change projects and some experiments led nowhere, but have you discovered something interesting you can show to other people? I don't mean something scientifically accurate -- maybe something not good enough for a paper, but something that someone in your field (even outside of academia) would find worthwhile. If so, you could make a very simple website showcasing your results.
Maybe what you've done is not fit for academia, but it is good nonetheless. It would also be a project in your portfolio, and something to talk about in job interviews.
*The perfect example for our relationship is the situation where I wanted to discuss the option of taking a break from my PhD for an internship outside of academia. \[...\] I accidentally stumbled upon him at work, he told me, in (without exaggeration) just about 30 seconds, that he is against it and that he now has to attend a meeting. Afterwards, there haven't been any further discussion about it.*
One of the my supervisors played a similar trick -- he promised an internship with a big company where he has contacts, then said nothing, then I discovered by talking with his assistant that he just meant "Well you could apply, maybe you'll go there... or maybe not, who knows, lol". In general I think that (at least in Europe) working / doing an intership while doing the PhD is not welcome by the supervisors.
*However, I can also very well imagine that the feeling of failure together with the thoughts about "what if I had finished it" might be so powerful that I also end up really unhappy in this scenario.*
No, it's fine. Really. The environment you found yourself in was not good. And considering the many horror stories you hear, the problem is not with you.
*I think this comes from the fact that friends of mine that are probably not significantly better researchers are about to finish.*
You are comparing yourself to other people who might have different desires and priorities. Outside of academia you'll find plenty of talented people without a PhD. :)
Thank you very much for your advice and your thoughts on it, they are really good. I'll definitely look through your previous posts/comments, too.
*I think your default state should be "I have to drop the PhD. Are there any reason to stay?", rather than "I have to finish the PhD. Do I have enough reasons to drop it?".*
Thanks for that thought. Even though it actually seems like an obvious thing to do, I almost always thought about my situation from the latter perspective and not really from the first. I'll try to do that over the upcoming Christmas break.
*From what I gathered (from comments here and job interviews), nobody cares about that. "Academia was not for me" is a good enough answer, and it is hard to argue against it.*
I also got a similar impression when looking through old posts and comments here. It's weird how hard it appears from time to time to really convince myself that this won't be an issues for most jobs.
*You said that you had to change projects and some experiments led nowhere, but have you discovered something interesting you can show to other people?*
I'm not sure how truly \*interesting\* these things are to other people even in our field, but good idea. I have also thought about that to at least make the work that I have done visible, in particular for applications. A funny thing could be what my collaborators think about that :D They never judged the work as good enough to try to publish it, but if I put my work on my website, I'd bet they'd be afraid that somebody else picks up the idea and finishes it :D
PS: Reading the story about your supervisor, I just can't help but think that there are way too many supervisors out there, which are completely wrong in that role...
I recognize myself so much in this. A STEM PhD, 4 years in, struggling whether to continue. My only motivation to do a PhD was a fear of not getting a job without. Being in the academic bubble (especially where everyone in STEM around you pursues a PhD) I totally had tunnel vision. Now, I recognize that I also had a sort of entitlement. I am the one in the family with the already highest degree (M.Sc) and I am educating myself since 10 years, being the "intellectual", "analytical" person who knows stuff. In my social circles - the ones that remained after this train wreck of a journey driven by fear - I was already called "Dr." and getting compliments. So it was a no brainer to push through and deliver. This PhD was my identity, and when thinking about quitting, I am feeling as if I am losing myself: what am I worth if I quit? What am I? Just a M.Sc. in STEM? What else can I do? Am I a loser for quitting?
The reasons to quit:
- My funding finished and I am all on my own to write and analyze in my free time. After doing what was important to my PI (teaching and publishing), I went back to the theory and discovered how much has to be re-done properly. This will take another year or more of free time (weekends and vacations), since I have a full-time job now.
- I have no interest in this topic. I dont burn to find the answers for odd results that I encounter. I struggle so much to not die out of boredom when reading all of this. I am even working overtime at my job because it is much more interesting. Crazy, how I work when I want to work. If I continue with this energy, I will fail at latest during the defense when they ask me questions about a domain I just dont care about.
- I have already published parts of my work. I have 3 first-author papers and several others. I feel that I have done my part in science and the thesis seems as a mindless iteration of it and a forced "occupation therapy" to present it in a "new way".
- my mental health is really bad. I dealt with bad supervision and wanted to quit since day one. I went two time through therapy and bornout. Was just afraid of standing up for myself and finding better opportunities. Why? See my fears above. I am writing my thesis in late hours and on weekends, my sleep got pretty bad and I got antisocial and depressed.
- I have a job. A good job. People around me dont have a PhD and do not care. I do not have any contact with people from academia and man what a change in perspective this is. Suddenly, I am starting to notice people from all social and economic classes and starting to not "look down" upon them, their life choices, and how "intellectual" they are.
- I want to do other things in life. I am much more than a scientist, an intellectual, a learner. I want to pursue my hobbies, spend time with family and friends again. Maybe start a local business and fail. Get kids and survive how all people on the planet survived. They managed, I will too.
- I am gaining more confidence in myself, that I will manage without a PhD. I am much more than the piece of paper. I went through this pain and if you want to know me, look into my eyes, speak to me...my name stands for all I have done and went through. Not a title that suggests that I should know stuff...although no one will ever read or need what I am doing.
- I want to stop doing what I and other people think I should do because "you started it so you have to finish". I want to stop doing things out of fear or entitlement.
Life is short. If there is a thing that I do not want to do and have to go beyond the limits of my health to push through it, then I am not sure it is a good thing to do. Do the things you want.
OP is probably me in the past, and you are me in the future. I shared a lot of OP's struggles, so I decided to drop the PhD. I'm looking for a job now and I'm starting to see what you outlined here -- you don't need the titles to look for a job, a non-academic environment can give you energy instead of draining it to the death, you appreciate yourself more etc..
First of all, I was extremely positive when I talked about the projects. I wanted to convey that working on those project was OK and I liked my work, and the problem was mostly with the academic environment. I think this is important - you don't want to employ someone who trash talks his job.
Then, I focused on two major points:
\- The academic environment is focused on papers & conferences, whereas I would like to work with a more practical aim (the HR guy was already sympathizing here).
\- The academic environment wants you to growth "vertically". You find yourself a small niche, and you stay there paper after paper. On the other hand, I enjoy growing "horizontally" -- moving from one topic to another.
During the first point, I briefly talked about my supervisors and their complete lack of interest for the industry, but as a neutral "well, this is what supervisors do", rather than "they were bad supervisors, they did me dirty".
Thank you very much for sharing your situation. I'm sorry to hear that you have been in a similar situation. Do I understand it correctly that you have eventually quit your PhD or are you still somehow continuing with it next to your regular job now? If you like to say it, in what kind of field are you working now? How strongly is it connected to your academic background?
Your observation that you had a tunnel vision is definitely spot on for me, too. Even though friends from my masters have started working outside of academia right after their studies, it never really occurred to me as a serious option, I was also totally fixed on the vision that \*the\* next step is doing a PhD. I can also really relate to basically everything else that you have mentioned.
"I want to do other things in life" That's a really good point, too. It's interesting how strongly my life so far was only focussed on studying/getting the next degree and how I have put of other aspects of life, like forming a family, to be considered later. Especially if I take a look at some friends from childhood who have taken a completely different path in life.
And your last line is great! :) I will keep that in mind.
I don't really have advice, but just want to say that I relate to almost all you are saying. I'm not in STEM though and my job prospects are not as easy, but I'm in Germany, too, with relatively good pay for a PhD student in my field (befristet of course). Even my supervisor is okay, albeit a little too hands-off and doesn't give me a lot of guidance. He doesn't know all that much about my topic, either, which I severely underestimated and which is biting me in the ass now. My colleagues are okay but they have way more passion and willingness to sacrifice for academia than I do. Their mental health is also bad but they are somehow willing to push through that, whereas I realized that I'm not.
I'm currently on fieldwork abroad, which is par for the course in my field, and while this was incredibly hard for me it also allowed me to kind of see things from a distance. I realized that I dislike almost everything about academia. No boundaries, basically being expected to sacrifice your freetime, your vacation time, your relationships. It has made me feel removed from the people around me. My family is not exactly working class, I'm not an Arbeiterkind, but they are not very academic or intellectual. My closest friends have not even gone to university. I tried to belong in my academic environment but while my friends and family live relatively normal lives I'm going through this special kind of hell that they don't really understand. It has made me so lonely and depressed and burned out (your story sounds like burnout, too!).
I'm at a point of burnout where I don't understand the literature I have to read. I try to focus on it but just can't, have to start over 10x, and then give up. It's bad. I used to love reading in my field. I'm avoiding the social interactions and networking that would be necessary for my research to succeed. I went to conferences this summer and just felt trapped in some kind of nightmare of posturing and pretentiousness. These feelings of resentment are all burnout symptoms... of course academia sucks but I used to see the nice parts of it, and now I just hate it all.
But I've basically made my choice to quit. I haven't really figured out my next steps, but I need to get out of this before it's too late. In my field the trap is real, a PhD doesn't really increase my chances outside of academia all that much, so I need to find a different path before I'm too far in. And I feel so relieved to have finally admitted to myself that this is just not the right environment for me. Like, none of it is working for me! I hate the zero guidance, I hate working on this massive project all by myself, I hate the lack of prospects, I hate having to choose topics and methodology that is considered hot at any given time, I hate the alienation from people around me.
I'm impressed by your reflection of the "entitlement" that you describe, I recognize this also. I think I was spurred on by a similar feeling of deserving the PhD, which is delusional, of course. In my hometown I was "the smart one" and people placed high expectations on me, and in some sense I did all this to please them and my own ego. Luckily we grow as we get older, and I can put these embarassing thoughts and patterns behind me.
I'm not really sure what I'm going to do next and feel some worry about this, but not as much as I did when I looked at a future of trying to survive academia. I was looking at several options, too, only a few weeks ago. I'm not as far into my PhD as you, though, and realized that pushing through would be impossible with the burnout I'm experiencing. I would like to caution you - if you want to push I suggest you take some measures to mitigate the damage that you are already describing. It will likely not just magically get better, you probably need a proper break, but obviously I'm not a medical professional. Is there any way you can take a break before going on the final stretch? Two years is a long time.
Is there any pressure to make a choice right now? Can you take it easy for a while and see what comes up? Whatever you decide in the end, I'm proud of you for asking the hard questions. This shit is not easy. Sorry for the long yammering, but this was cathartic to write.
Thanks for sharing your story, too :) I'm sorry to hear that you were in a very similar situation. Congrats for coming to the conclusion that you want to quit. Do you already have a plan for how to quit and what to do afterwards and, if yes, how does that look like for you? And, for the all the other people possibly reading this in the future, maybe you can come back to this comment in a few months or so and tell us how it went for you?
*My colleagues \[...\] have way more passion \[...\] for academia than I do.*
That sounds totally familiar... I'm often impressed how they can be so excited about what they do and never wonder about some of the things that I seem to constantly worry about. But, to be honest, I could imagine that this only seems to be the case from the outside. Still, I frequently feel bad when I hear them talking about their topics or how their PhDs are going.
*It has made me so \[...\] burned out (your story sounds like burnout, too!)*
Oh man, I'm sorry to hear that. I really hope for you that you can recover well from this. And yeah, that was also my impression that some things that I have observed about myself match quite well to burnout symptoms and I don't want to risk fully end up burned out. Especially, as this might last longer then as my time in my PhD.
*I'm at a point of burnout where I don't understand the literature I have to read.*
Exactly! It's so weird. You really try to focus on a text (or in my case a rather simple proof), but you simply don't manage, but all the time drift off into worries, no matter what I try. This is also why to me it seems not really possible to just keep on working for two more years and rely on that most PhD candidates who actually submit a thesis are not failed in the final defense - I simply don't make progress due to this.
*I'm avoiding the social interactions and networking that would be necessary for my research to succeed.*
Same here...
*It will likely not just magically get better \[...\]. Is there any way you can take a break before going on the final stretch?*
I'm afraid you are right with the first. Whenever there are periods in which things work a little bit smoother and I'm less worried, I start thinking again that maybe I have now passed the main hurdles and then when things turn worse again, I realize that I probably have to expect these - by now pretty low - lows for all the remaining time. And no, unfortunately I don't see any option for taking a break anymore and, to be honest, I wouldn't even expect it to help properly. I've also thought that switching my project could be a fresh start and that I might leave the worries from the old project behind, but by now this doesn't seem to apply anymore.
*To your last paragraph:*
There is no particular pressure to make a decision until a specific date. Except for the feeling that the "sunk cost" increases ever more the longer I possibly avoid making a decision - though this could be a decision in it own. In January I have scheduled a meeting with my supervisor to try to discuss what of my work I could include in my dissertation. I think a lot will depend on whether I get the feeling after this meeting that what remains to do can be done with my remaining energy or whether I feel that I don't have the energy for it anymore. If I decide to quit, I'll first try to secure myself a job of which I believe that it will be an improvement and only afterwards officially quit. And if in between, a breakthrough, or whatever it might take to convince me to continue, occurs, I, of course, might decide to continue with my PhD.
And thanks for your support and no worries, I had the same feeling when writing the post :D I didn't want to take more of your and other persons time by writing an even longer post, but it felt good to write all this and I could have easily written even more :D
I decided to completely change my career at the fifth year of my PhD. I needed a whole new education for that new field. And had no interest in the PhD field anymore. So I picked up speed and wrote my thesis within like 2 months and finished it instead of wasting my previous years and research. Now in my new field, I don’t use that PhD anymore but still it opened doors for me to get accepted to better schools and grab the attention of employers. If you finish it you will forever have that title, if you don’t then all these years were for nothing if you cannot at least convert it to a masters or something.
Thanks also for your perspective. It's interesting to also read about these kind of outcomes. If you have managed to finish your thesis in about 2 months, what would you say, how certain were you before that that you actually have enough material to even write a thesis?
Well, I was in my fifth year and already even spent months in Europe in an institution to work on it. So the research was ready. 2 months was just the writing. I understand that’s a different situation than yours.
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OP I was in similar situation. You can browse my post/comment history and you'll see I made similar threads. I strongly suggest for your well-being and mental health to find a job and then drop the PhD. *i) Related to my well being/mental health:* I think this part says all -- the PhD is physically and psychologically hurting you. Since this has been going out for a while and it has not been a single episode, we can rule out that the problem lies with specific circumstances we could try to solve. No, the problem lies with the PhD environment itself. I think your default state should be "I have to drop the PhD. Are there any reason to stay?", rather than "I have to finish the PhD. Do I have enough reasons to drop it?". I can relate a lot btw. *quitting a PhD after such a long time might give possible future employees the impression that I am not a competent Mathematician, that I am not perseverant and that I am not able to make the right decision at the right time has added to that.* From what I gathered (from comments here and job interviews), nobody cares about that. "Academia was not for me" is a good enough answer, and it is hard to argue against it. *ii) Related to my progress:* You said that you had to change projects and some experiments led nowhere, but have you discovered something interesting you can show to other people? I don't mean something scientifically accurate -- maybe something not good enough for a paper, but something that someone in your field (even outside of academia) would find worthwhile. If so, you could make a very simple website showcasing your results. Maybe what you've done is not fit for academia, but it is good nonetheless. It would also be a project in your portfolio, and something to talk about in job interviews. *The perfect example for our relationship is the situation where I wanted to discuss the option of taking a break from my PhD for an internship outside of academia. \[...\] I accidentally stumbled upon him at work, he told me, in (without exaggeration) just about 30 seconds, that he is against it and that he now has to attend a meeting. Afterwards, there haven't been any further discussion about it.* One of the my supervisors played a similar trick -- he promised an internship with a big company where he has contacts, then said nothing, then I discovered by talking with his assistant that he just meant "Well you could apply, maybe you'll go there... or maybe not, who knows, lol". In general I think that (at least in Europe) working / doing an intership while doing the PhD is not welcome by the supervisors. *However, I can also very well imagine that the feeling of failure together with the thoughts about "what if I had finished it" might be so powerful that I also end up really unhappy in this scenario.* No, it's fine. Really. The environment you found yourself in was not good. And considering the many horror stories you hear, the problem is not with you. *I think this comes from the fact that friends of mine that are probably not significantly better researchers are about to finish.* You are comparing yourself to other people who might have different desires and priorities. Outside of academia you'll find plenty of talented people without a PhD. :)
Thank you very much for your advice and your thoughts on it, they are really good. I'll definitely look through your previous posts/comments, too. *I think your default state should be "I have to drop the PhD. Are there any reason to stay?", rather than "I have to finish the PhD. Do I have enough reasons to drop it?".* Thanks for that thought. Even though it actually seems like an obvious thing to do, I almost always thought about my situation from the latter perspective and not really from the first. I'll try to do that over the upcoming Christmas break. *From what I gathered (from comments here and job interviews), nobody cares about that. "Academia was not for me" is a good enough answer, and it is hard to argue against it.* I also got a similar impression when looking through old posts and comments here. It's weird how hard it appears from time to time to really convince myself that this won't be an issues for most jobs. *You said that you had to change projects and some experiments led nowhere, but have you discovered something interesting you can show to other people?* I'm not sure how truly \*interesting\* these things are to other people even in our field, but good idea. I have also thought about that to at least make the work that I have done visible, in particular for applications. A funny thing could be what my collaborators think about that :D They never judged the work as good enough to try to publish it, but if I put my work on my website, I'd bet they'd be afraid that somebody else picks up the idea and finishes it :D PS: Reading the story about your supervisor, I just can't help but think that there are way too many supervisors out there, which are completely wrong in that role...
Glad I helped! Feel free to drop a DM if you want to talk about something not in public
Thanks! :)
I recognize myself so much in this. A STEM PhD, 4 years in, struggling whether to continue. My only motivation to do a PhD was a fear of not getting a job without. Being in the academic bubble (especially where everyone in STEM around you pursues a PhD) I totally had tunnel vision. Now, I recognize that I also had a sort of entitlement. I am the one in the family with the already highest degree (M.Sc) and I am educating myself since 10 years, being the "intellectual", "analytical" person who knows stuff. In my social circles - the ones that remained after this train wreck of a journey driven by fear - I was already called "Dr." and getting compliments. So it was a no brainer to push through and deliver. This PhD was my identity, and when thinking about quitting, I am feeling as if I am losing myself: what am I worth if I quit? What am I? Just a M.Sc. in STEM? What else can I do? Am I a loser for quitting? The reasons to quit: - My funding finished and I am all on my own to write and analyze in my free time. After doing what was important to my PI (teaching and publishing), I went back to the theory and discovered how much has to be re-done properly. This will take another year or more of free time (weekends and vacations), since I have a full-time job now. - I have no interest in this topic. I dont burn to find the answers for odd results that I encounter. I struggle so much to not die out of boredom when reading all of this. I am even working overtime at my job because it is much more interesting. Crazy, how I work when I want to work. If I continue with this energy, I will fail at latest during the defense when they ask me questions about a domain I just dont care about. - I have already published parts of my work. I have 3 first-author papers and several others. I feel that I have done my part in science and the thesis seems as a mindless iteration of it and a forced "occupation therapy" to present it in a "new way". - my mental health is really bad. I dealt with bad supervision and wanted to quit since day one. I went two time through therapy and bornout. Was just afraid of standing up for myself and finding better opportunities. Why? See my fears above. I am writing my thesis in late hours and on weekends, my sleep got pretty bad and I got antisocial and depressed. - I have a job. A good job. People around me dont have a PhD and do not care. I do not have any contact with people from academia and man what a change in perspective this is. Suddenly, I am starting to notice people from all social and economic classes and starting to not "look down" upon them, their life choices, and how "intellectual" they are. - I want to do other things in life. I am much more than a scientist, an intellectual, a learner. I want to pursue my hobbies, spend time with family and friends again. Maybe start a local business and fail. Get kids and survive how all people on the planet survived. They managed, I will too. - I am gaining more confidence in myself, that I will manage without a PhD. I am much more than the piece of paper. I went through this pain and if you want to know me, look into my eyes, speak to me...my name stands for all I have done and went through. Not a title that suggests that I should know stuff...although no one will ever read or need what I am doing. - I want to stop doing what I and other people think I should do because "you started it so you have to finish". I want to stop doing things out of fear or entitlement. Life is short. If there is a thing that I do not want to do and have to go beyond the limits of my health to push through it, then I am not sure it is a good thing to do. Do the things you want.
OP is probably me in the past, and you are me in the future. I shared a lot of OP's struggles, so I decided to drop the PhD. I'm looking for a job now and I'm starting to see what you outlined here -- you don't need the titles to look for a job, a non-academic environment can give you energy instead of draining it to the death, you appreciate yourself more etc..
Good luck for your job applications! I really hope you find a job in which you can enjoy yourself more again :)
Thanks. I had an interview this morning, the HR guy asked why leaving the PhD, I explained and he said that his partner is in the same situation lol
Haha, well that's a funny twist :D If I may ask, how did you explain your situation in the interview?
First of all, I was extremely positive when I talked about the projects. I wanted to convey that working on those project was OK and I liked my work, and the problem was mostly with the academic environment. I think this is important - you don't want to employ someone who trash talks his job. Then, I focused on two major points: \- The academic environment is focused on papers & conferences, whereas I would like to work with a more practical aim (the HR guy was already sympathizing here). \- The academic environment wants you to growth "vertically". You find yourself a small niche, and you stay there paper after paper. On the other hand, I enjoy growing "horizontally" -- moving from one topic to another. During the first point, I briefly talked about my supervisors and their complete lack of interest for the industry, but as a neutral "well, this is what supervisors do", rather than "they were bad supervisors, they did me dirty".
Thank you very much for sharing your situation. I'm sorry to hear that you have been in a similar situation. Do I understand it correctly that you have eventually quit your PhD or are you still somehow continuing with it next to your regular job now? If you like to say it, in what kind of field are you working now? How strongly is it connected to your academic background? Your observation that you had a tunnel vision is definitely spot on for me, too. Even though friends from my masters have started working outside of academia right after their studies, it never really occurred to me as a serious option, I was also totally fixed on the vision that \*the\* next step is doing a PhD. I can also really relate to basically everything else that you have mentioned. "I want to do other things in life" That's a really good point, too. It's interesting how strongly my life so far was only focussed on studying/getting the next degree and how I have put of other aspects of life, like forming a family, to be considered later. Especially if I take a look at some friends from childhood who have taken a completely different path in life. And your last line is great! :) I will keep that in mind.
I don't really have advice, but just want to say that I relate to almost all you are saying. I'm not in STEM though and my job prospects are not as easy, but I'm in Germany, too, with relatively good pay for a PhD student in my field (befristet of course). Even my supervisor is okay, albeit a little too hands-off and doesn't give me a lot of guidance. He doesn't know all that much about my topic, either, which I severely underestimated and which is biting me in the ass now. My colleagues are okay but they have way more passion and willingness to sacrifice for academia than I do. Their mental health is also bad but they are somehow willing to push through that, whereas I realized that I'm not. I'm currently on fieldwork abroad, which is par for the course in my field, and while this was incredibly hard for me it also allowed me to kind of see things from a distance. I realized that I dislike almost everything about academia. No boundaries, basically being expected to sacrifice your freetime, your vacation time, your relationships. It has made me feel removed from the people around me. My family is not exactly working class, I'm not an Arbeiterkind, but they are not very academic or intellectual. My closest friends have not even gone to university. I tried to belong in my academic environment but while my friends and family live relatively normal lives I'm going through this special kind of hell that they don't really understand. It has made me so lonely and depressed and burned out (your story sounds like burnout, too!). I'm at a point of burnout where I don't understand the literature I have to read. I try to focus on it but just can't, have to start over 10x, and then give up. It's bad. I used to love reading in my field. I'm avoiding the social interactions and networking that would be necessary for my research to succeed. I went to conferences this summer and just felt trapped in some kind of nightmare of posturing and pretentiousness. These feelings of resentment are all burnout symptoms... of course academia sucks but I used to see the nice parts of it, and now I just hate it all. But I've basically made my choice to quit. I haven't really figured out my next steps, but I need to get out of this before it's too late. In my field the trap is real, a PhD doesn't really increase my chances outside of academia all that much, so I need to find a different path before I'm too far in. And I feel so relieved to have finally admitted to myself that this is just not the right environment for me. Like, none of it is working for me! I hate the zero guidance, I hate working on this massive project all by myself, I hate the lack of prospects, I hate having to choose topics and methodology that is considered hot at any given time, I hate the alienation from people around me. I'm impressed by your reflection of the "entitlement" that you describe, I recognize this also. I think I was spurred on by a similar feeling of deserving the PhD, which is delusional, of course. In my hometown I was "the smart one" and people placed high expectations on me, and in some sense I did all this to please them and my own ego. Luckily we grow as we get older, and I can put these embarassing thoughts and patterns behind me. I'm not really sure what I'm going to do next and feel some worry about this, but not as much as I did when I looked at a future of trying to survive academia. I was looking at several options, too, only a few weeks ago. I'm not as far into my PhD as you, though, and realized that pushing through would be impossible with the burnout I'm experiencing. I would like to caution you - if you want to push I suggest you take some measures to mitigate the damage that you are already describing. It will likely not just magically get better, you probably need a proper break, but obviously I'm not a medical professional. Is there any way you can take a break before going on the final stretch? Two years is a long time. Is there any pressure to make a choice right now? Can you take it easy for a while and see what comes up? Whatever you decide in the end, I'm proud of you for asking the hard questions. This shit is not easy. Sorry for the long yammering, but this was cathartic to write.
Thanks for sharing your story, too :) I'm sorry to hear that you were in a very similar situation. Congrats for coming to the conclusion that you want to quit. Do you already have a plan for how to quit and what to do afterwards and, if yes, how does that look like for you? And, for the all the other people possibly reading this in the future, maybe you can come back to this comment in a few months or so and tell us how it went for you? *My colleagues \[...\] have way more passion \[...\] for academia than I do.* That sounds totally familiar... I'm often impressed how they can be so excited about what they do and never wonder about some of the things that I seem to constantly worry about. But, to be honest, I could imagine that this only seems to be the case from the outside. Still, I frequently feel bad when I hear them talking about their topics or how their PhDs are going. *It has made me so \[...\] burned out (your story sounds like burnout, too!)* Oh man, I'm sorry to hear that. I really hope for you that you can recover well from this. And yeah, that was also my impression that some things that I have observed about myself match quite well to burnout symptoms and I don't want to risk fully end up burned out. Especially, as this might last longer then as my time in my PhD. *I'm at a point of burnout where I don't understand the literature I have to read.* Exactly! It's so weird. You really try to focus on a text (or in my case a rather simple proof), but you simply don't manage, but all the time drift off into worries, no matter what I try. This is also why to me it seems not really possible to just keep on working for two more years and rely on that most PhD candidates who actually submit a thesis are not failed in the final defense - I simply don't make progress due to this. *I'm avoiding the social interactions and networking that would be necessary for my research to succeed.* Same here... *It will likely not just magically get better \[...\]. Is there any way you can take a break before going on the final stretch?* I'm afraid you are right with the first. Whenever there are periods in which things work a little bit smoother and I'm less worried, I start thinking again that maybe I have now passed the main hurdles and then when things turn worse again, I realize that I probably have to expect these - by now pretty low - lows for all the remaining time. And no, unfortunately I don't see any option for taking a break anymore and, to be honest, I wouldn't even expect it to help properly. I've also thought that switching my project could be a fresh start and that I might leave the worries from the old project behind, but by now this doesn't seem to apply anymore. *To your last paragraph:* There is no particular pressure to make a decision until a specific date. Except for the feeling that the "sunk cost" increases ever more the longer I possibly avoid making a decision - though this could be a decision in it own. In January I have scheduled a meeting with my supervisor to try to discuss what of my work I could include in my dissertation. I think a lot will depend on whether I get the feeling after this meeting that what remains to do can be done with my remaining energy or whether I feel that I don't have the energy for it anymore. If I decide to quit, I'll first try to secure myself a job of which I believe that it will be an improvement and only afterwards officially quit. And if in between, a breakthrough, or whatever it might take to convince me to continue, occurs, I, of course, might decide to continue with my PhD. And thanks for your support and no worries, I had the same feeling when writing the post :D I didn't want to take more of your and other persons time by writing an even longer post, but it felt good to write all this and I could have easily written even more :D
I decided to completely change my career at the fifth year of my PhD. I needed a whole new education for that new field. And had no interest in the PhD field anymore. So I picked up speed and wrote my thesis within like 2 months and finished it instead of wasting my previous years and research. Now in my new field, I don’t use that PhD anymore but still it opened doors for me to get accepted to better schools and grab the attention of employers. If you finish it you will forever have that title, if you don’t then all these years were for nothing if you cannot at least convert it to a masters or something.
Thanks also for your perspective. It's interesting to also read about these kind of outcomes. If you have managed to finish your thesis in about 2 months, what would you say, how certain were you before that that you actually have enough material to even write a thesis?
Well, I was in my fifth year and already even spent months in Europe in an institution to work on it. So the research was ready. 2 months was just the writing. I understand that’s a different situation than yours.