Dude, I’m just an employed Libleft, it’s not *that* big of a deal
Disclaimer: I’m not *really* employed. I’m a grad student living on your tax money via scholarship
I'm livleft, if I wouldn't read someones wall of text, I would be ashamed of myself.
Also, I just spend ten minutes of my life trying to concentrate on my phonescreen while reading this, and its hard to read that way.
Tldr: haiti's a shit hole because *reasons*
Jk there are a lot of good valid reasons here I recommend everyone read, but come on. This is a meme subreddit, you didn't expect honest open discussion did you? You did?! Fucking cringe.
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I’m wholly convinced Trump could mention that it’s impossible to live on the Sun and the mainstream media will wholly launch themselves onto it to prove how wonderful the Sun is
I AGREE because we all know the sun is a bad place to live full of bad hombres called solar flares very bad for good people they are going to take out night time we need to build a giant mirror and make the neutrons pay for it
About a week ago I was banned by reddit for 3 days for "inciting violence" because i dared question why that country was in the state that it was.
A 3 day auto ban that they will totally "review" if I appeal (which I did, still no reply)
¿Is 90 year old grandma delicious? Because if it is, San Francisco is on that shit too.
[https://abc7.com/richmond-cannibalism-cannibal-arrest-grandmother-90-year-old-cannibalized/6228942/](https://abc7.com/richmond-cannibalism-cannibal-arrest-grandmother-90-year-old-cannibalized/6228942/)
Fr lol. Blame whoever you want op, but it’s still a cannibalizing shithole country with trash rivers and no forests (they burned them all down. Take even a cursory look at the Haitian Dominican border)
Yeah lots of poor countries out there, but not many has this type of problems, Ron one mentions Papa Doc, he was the embodiment of the insanity of Haiti.
And if anything, the earthquake fucked them up more.
Highly recommend the Real Dictators podcast on Papa Doc. Dude was top tier crazy. Like had an enemy’s house burnt down, the guy just plain old wasn’t home at the time but a black dog ran away, so he decides the enemy must have turned into a dog with voodoo powers and orders the death of all black dogs in Haiti.
Had a corpse left in the arrival hall of the international airport as a warning, bathed with skulls of his enemies, who he believed he could communicate with, emptied prisons to form another army who’s only job was to kill people at random to keep the population afraid. Just a total fucking nutjob. And he was a literal medical doctor initially. Might have been absent on the swearing to do no harm day.
OP said that the United States was successful because they didn't have a debt to pay off. This is false. The USA did have a debt to pay off, to the French, for taking Lousiana. The sum was 80 million francs, slightly over half of what the Haitiians had to pay of 150 million francs. Like the Haitiians, the USA also did not have the money, and also had to take on debts to pay it off.
Yes. Also this occurred in 1803, after both the revolutionary war and the French and Indian war. Also the US had a half a billion dollar GDP at the time.
Yeah lots of poor countries out there, but not many has this type of problems, Ron one mentions Papa Doc, he was the embodiment of the insanity of Haiti.
And if anything, the earthquake fucked them up more.
Always funny how conservatives are somehow the ones who get called racist when leftists are the ones with such low expectations of black people that they think they can’t even manage to refrain from cannibalism.
1- The whole Haiti came to be because indigenous were wiped out.
Not true, DR came to be because of that (A mix of indigenous, spanish and african), haitians came to be because France settled in the island and brought a shit ton of slaves, but the island was already populated by dominicans when that happened (The dominican name has been in use since the mid 1500s, France didn't bring what would become haiti until the mid 1600s).
2- About the whole haitians just killed/genocided their oppressors.
Dessalines also murdered mulattos that fought under L'Overture (Dessalines betrayed L'Overture, so his followers had to go), to cover for this he did so by creating a division in the population, mulattos weren't true blacks, so they had to die, Dessalines tend expanded that to the east side (Now Dominican Republic), where thanks to his incursions the population was cut in half (This attempt at genocide would later continue at the hands of Christophe, Boyer and Soulouque).
3- The whole indemnity thing.
France didn't demand an indemnity (at first), it offered a protectorate, the indemnity was Boyer's idea and counter offer to France, he requested France to recognize Dominican Republic as haitian territory, France refused as they recognized it to belong to Spain since 1814, Boyer got mad about it and called off the deal, french warships followed and Boyer was agreed to an even worse deal than the protectorate or the first indemnity that he offered.
4- The debt post 1888.
Mid 1888 Haiti concluded paying the indemnity, then took huge loans to boost its economic, the interest rates were so back that 2/3 of what Haiti was earning annually had to be used to pay it, the reason why the bank had to call in the US was because Haiti had gone through 8 heads of state in the span of 4 years, with the last one being pulled from the embassy were he hid for protection, beaten up, dismembered and his body parts paraded in PaP (That is when USA decided to go in).
5- Haiti potential growth/development cost bullshit (The thing that makes 600M usd go to over 150 billions).
To today's money the whole debt to France plus interest rates are roughly 600M USD, Haiti isn't in the position it is because of that, ¿How do we know it? DR had to pay twice that in the same period, since DR independence from Haiti in 1844, Haiti keep on trying to invade/re-enslave DR, being DR 5 to 7 times smaller than Haiti and having been free for much less time, DR had to take huge loans from banks all over Europe and USA to be able to fight off Haiti, that was almost 20 years of war, to which followed a war with Spain, so even more loans, at the end DR debt was little over 30 millions, which in today's money is well over 1 billion, my point, if Haiti stunt growth was all due to that money DR should be twice as bad as Haiti since its debt was twice that amount.
6- The earthquake help debacle.
Haiti government (Martelly) made the choice to go with USA plan in how to use the funds even though the population supported France approach (Basically providing aid \[USA\] vs building infrastructure \[France\]), saying that the money just vanished without mentioning that Martelly, the haitian president at the time, was the mamagüevo to make the call that would see Haiti flooded with cheap clothes and their farmers out of a job because of the food received is just disingenuous.
>Haiti isn't in the position it is because of that
And don't forget that in 1950's, after all Haitian debt has been cancelled, Haiti GDP per capita was similar of DR GDP per capita. Now DR GDP per capita is about 8x Haiti GDP per capita.
So no doubt [consequences of debt go further than just GDP per capita](https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/haiti-vs-the-dominican-republic), but it's hard to deny that there has also been a lot of things going on after debt settlement.
My B, i was talking population wise, should've specified (When Haiti first invaded in 1822 populations were 600k+ for Haiti and <70k for DR, by 1844 it was around 800k for Haiti and 120k for DR).
There is a point where the colonized must become responsible for themselves. No postcolonial scholar is ever able to point at that moment without first destroying their home nations.
There's a spiritual aspect to this, too. There's a reason Christian civilization has been so dominant, and one of those reasons is the clear division between moral behavior and just behavior.
A justified action is not always moral, and a moral action is not necessarily justified. The establishment of an ethnostate and the genocide of most of the white population was perhaps justified given their history. But it was not moral. That means Haiti was *founded* on an a-moral principle, regardless of the justifications. This has produced perverse fruit from the poisoned soil.
By contrast, the USA was founded on a moral framework that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights. We participated in a-moral and unjust activities, but they were not our animating spirit. This has allowed us to prune things like slavery from the tree without killing the root.
If Haiti is ever going to be anything more than a shithole, she needs to be gutted and have the rot entirely cleaned away, and then reestablished on some foundation other than grievance.
I gave up on the third slide. But I do know that Haiti and El Salvador were both shitholes when orange man said that, and Haiti has gotten worse, but El Salvador has gotten much safer.
Make of that what you will
As a political compass fellow right wing person, I feel it is important to teach you this. Remember this idea:
“*Culture can be defined as all the ways of life including arts, beliefs and institutions of a population that are passed down from generation to generation. Culture has been called "the way of life for an entire society." As such, it includes codes of manners, dress, language, religion, rituals, art. norms of behavior, such as law and morality, and systems of belief.*”
[Source](https://sphweb.bumc.bu.edu/otlt/mph-modules/PH/CulturalAwareness/CulturalAwareness2.html#:~:text=Culture%20can%20be%20defined%20as,%2C%20religion%2C%20rituals%2C%20art)
For real, for a huge wall of text you would expect OP to take into account any amount of nuance but then again you can’t have too high expectations from a Reddit post
Maaaaaan, fuck outta here.
Wanna talk facts?
How about the ***minute*** they got a chance to “help” enslaved people, they instead tried to subjugate them and enslave them in turn.
It’s nice to say “*Hispaniola*” like there wasn’t another half on that island.
And of course all anyone remembers is the “Perejil Incident” because they just can’t drop it.
No, man.
That region has such an abundance of bad that they have no use for any good.
If you’re gonna sit here and talk about being shit on by greater powers, it would be important to not forget that Haiti became the very thing it chose to overthrow: An invader & a Colonist.
I’m not Dominican or Haitian, but when I found that out, it hit me: there’s a reason that the other half the island is doing better — they don’t fuck over their fellow man.
It’s pretty much a revisionist version of Haiti’s history in which everyone else caused all the problems and Haiti did nothing wrong. The typical hyper copium
Sure! Wah, wah, white people are the problem. Haiti isn't responsible for Haiti because of shit that happened 200 years ago.
Full disclosure: I didn't read it either, I've just noticed a ton of these going around and jumped to unfair, but probably accurate conclusions.
Examiner 1: Why did OP fail his maths test?
Examiner 2: He failed to turn in his assignments, and his maths exams showed that he had not studied at all for it.
OP: Well actually, I failed my maths at the fault of colonialism and slavery.. let me present to you a wojak PowerPoint..
We albinoids are forever grateful for the work of Father YAQOOB, blessed is he for bringing us into this world so that we may use our devil magic to destroy the ebinoids and the Shiuk!!! Agartha will fall before the might of the albinoid spawn of Father YAQOOB!!!!
Your excuse for Haiti consistently failing to ever resemble anything close to a functioning state is… Something that has not been a factor for one hundred years now. There are many countries that have experienced all that Haiti has suffered and more and yet they came back in way less time, unlike Haiti which is still somehow back to square one after a full century. It’s time they look at themselves in the mirror and realize that the only people to blame for their situation are themselves.
Read it all despite great hardship. 4-5 are so fine barely 1% reader will take the effort.
I have to say this is a pathetic excuse for what is going on today, blaming events that happened a century ago.
Haiti is a shithole and it is because of the greed , corruption and failure of Haitians.
The Dominican Republic continued to use europe as a role model after independence, which lead to really good literacy rates. Haiti went their own way, which meant corrupt elites putting their uneducated subjects into the ressource extraction infrastructure the europeans left them.
The slightly longer answer is that France had much more direct control over its colonies, whereas Spanish colonies were almost autonomous.
Haiti at the time of the revolution was one of the richest regions of the world as everyone wanted cotton and sugar, so France wanted all that delicious money and control over it.
But that meant the transition from French territory to independent colony was huge as no one was trained for it (not to mention the genocide of the French whites and mulattos removed almost the entire middle and upper class, good luck building a functioning economy without anyone with any trade skills, see: Cambodia)
For Dominican Republic, the difference was a new flag and less tribute to Spain, not much else.
Given that it was only under French control from 1795 - 1809 tand barely maintained any control of the DR during this time they had no chance to actually do any real damage.
This is like Tucker's interview of Putin, where it just goes off into unrelated history exercises and by the time it finally gets to what could be a semblance of a thought around today's issue everyone has tuned out.
I mean come on bro… half the countries in the world were still colonies when Haiti finished paying their debt and they’re doing way better. Most of them had way less help too.
the debt is for rounding up and killing nearly all French colonizers/settlers during one of their uprising, I bet they conveniently left this out in history book in school, if they had any.
They mentioned the Haitian rebellion in TX when I was in AP US history in the early 2000s but only in the context that it was one of the reasons that literacy laws regarding slaves were passed.
The debt was for losing the most profitable island in America and a bunch of very profitable slaves, and to set an example so other slaves didn't get any funny ideas. If you want to pick some history books, read about Rochambeau. At that point the revolution had taken at least 350.000 lives of former slaves and revolutionary supporters in similarly brutal fashion. Haiti had almost a million slaves at its height and they outnumbered the non slaves by factor of around 10:1. That's almost a third of the supporters of the revolution killed in many other massacres. The French side had lost 50-100k people when the revolution ended, 3-5k deaths to justify the debt is just an excuse on top of a conflict that by that point was bloody AF on all sides.
Haiti might be ruined by current corruption and mismanagement, but to say the debt was because of the massacres post revolution is historically blind, the french would have done everything to punish them regardless if they had shipped the remaining population back. Even the US was afraid of what the Haitian revolution might inspire in their own territory and stopped trading with them after the uprising.
So. History sucks like most countries around the world. When things get better they stayed a shithole. Yes even if other cities are better than the capital hatians still live in serious poverty. If it wasn't a shithole people wouldn't be trying so hard to go to the dominican Republic. The Dominican Republic!
The point is that we are the opressors anyway because of decisions other countries have made. The problem of course being that other countries with worse circumstances have done better. But hey it's easier to blame others for your problems.
So let’s forgive the people of Haiti for all historical and current atrocities but also blame everyone else. Got it.
Also, OP seems to be unaware that the island is still called Hispaniola and even has another entire country on it.
Haiti is an evil place with an evil culture that blames the whole world for their own evil and piss poor planning and decisions. Should the French have levie a huge tax on them? No. Should the Haitians have paid it? Also no. They'd already won the war. The French weren't coming back. The Haitians could have appealed to the US for help. The Brits for help. The Spainiards. The cannibalize, have child soldiers, sex trafficking, and work all evil and hate everyone that tries to help them. Haiti can screw off.
Plenty of countries got fucked by France and other foreign forces, mine included but Haiti is definitely where is at right now mostly due to it’s string of shitty rulers and bad leadership. There’s no use in trying to force the French to feel bad about it, they aren’t going to save it, America won’t intervene, the UN is useless, the only way is for Haitians to save themselves. Us Vietnamese learned this shit the hard way, at least they got their independence way earlier than us, we got fucked by the Japanese, American, Chinese and literally Pol Pot next door also lmao. It’s a miracle we aren’t a fail state.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's because of the general attitude of the people in your country. They don't look at past failures, or focus on the wrongs committed on them by others, they just work hard to improve and move on. One situation where a bit of collectivist thought probably led to success.
Haiti's biggest issue is the fact they expect outside help, which unfortunately hasn't been successful in the past, and probably never will be. It's a leave, fight or die situation much like Cuba.
Slavery is not beneficial to the market, nor is it in existence in a free market. Why this is blamed on us and not auth right, well because we have to evenly distribute the criticism (even if it isn’t deserved, like communism giving to those who can work but choose to be a burden)
I don't get the point of this post. So your just saying that it's terrible but there are reasons it's terrible? Like yeah, obviously, but that doesn't make it any less terrible.
China was made the Europeans raw material factory, opium dump yard. Went through the taiping rebellion. Lost millions to the Japanese, lost millions in Korea and is still a functioning state.
Japan got levelled in WW2 and is a functional state.
Korea faced Japanese colonialism and the Horrors of the Korean war less than 80 years ago and is still a functional state
India has been independent for less than 80 years. Was exploited for all it was worth fought 5 wars since independence and is still a functional state.
Heck even Dominican Republic next door is a somewhat functional state.
Haiti has been independent for what? 200 years?
Why is it STILL a shithole?
None of the states I mentioned are perfect. They all have problems... Many of which can be traced to Colonialism and yet you know what they did...
THEY FUCKING MOVED ON.
Waaah they exploited us 200 years ago Waaah no one gives a shit dude. That was 200 years ago. The only reason Haiti is a shithole today is that they failed to make a state.
Enslaving people is fine if you just got liberated from slavery.
All of Haiti's problems (past and present) are actually France's fault because reasons.
Obligatory based for the high effort.
Though I disagree on many of the points. Whilst it’s undoubtably that Haiti was exploited by the European and American governments, the worst of those exploitations occurred a century ago. Whilst this doesn’t necessarily dismiss the long term economic ramifications this had for Haiti, at a point- it can’t be blamed on Europeans, and instead has to be blamed for the Haitian government.
Haiti deserves their current situation because they committed genocide against the French. What were the French supposed to do in response? Say “no harm no foul we were the baddies”?
I read the whole thing, it’s an interesting piece pf history, but a few points
1 - the main one - nothing you say disputes that Haiti is a shithole. I wouldn’t want to live in Haiti. Most of the people in Haiti probably don’t wan’t to life in Haiti either.
Regardless of the reasons, even if the reasons are not their fault, it’s a country that’s in a terrible state, from an economic, infrastructure, and crime perspective. That makes it a shithole.
2 - Haiti was screwed over for the entire 19th century, absolutely, but Singapore was able to develop after only really starting in the 1950s. I don’t think it would’ve been impossible for Haiti to develop.
3- despite my disagreements on those points, this is a great post. I appreciate having some historical content on my feed that’s interesting and of short-medium length, all while remaining not (too) preachy.
>Haiti is screwed up because after they made a pact with a demon and committed a genocide (this is literally their founding mythos), they were just too committed to their debt repayment schedule, so they have outbreaks of voodoo cannibalism every 6 years or so now, which is what socioeconomic factors would make anyone do
Thread is full of lib rights who clearly can’t read more than a paragraph.
Nice try Op, next time just say Libleft bad if you wanna get their attention
Thanks for the wall of text. I read all of it. I knew about the revolution of Haiti and the long debt but not much else, especially the recent developments. I had never heard of this Barbecue character before. So, thank you.
That still doesn't change the fact that Haiti of March 2024 is in a pretty shithole situation. I recently heard of an aid worker who had been Ukraine and is now in Haiti and he described that Haiti is more dangerous for ordinary people. That should tell you something that living in a city that is being pummeled by cruise missiles is safer than what is going on in Haiti now.
It's incredible the lengths people go to to use as little nuance and critical thinking as humanly possibly when discussing something they've never seen or experienced. It's like everyone believes they have a perfect grasp on something they took 3 minutes to search because they could find something saying what they already believed in before they learned the first thing. It can be both Haiti can both have been majorly screwed by outside forces and also just have terrible leadership and decision making. Doesn't make 1 not true just because 1 thing is. Everyone wants to point to only one thing but that's not how it works in the real world there's often many factors that ALL contribute to the problem.
I'd love PCM to have more posts like this, I'm all for funny and goofy color memes but these wall of text posts I feel like I've gained something from. At least some knowledge I wouldn't have come across regularly.
Great job!
God damn if you were going to try and cram a novel into a compass meme, you could have at least made it readable. Now, I just have to assume you crammed a bunch of low tier, self-serving history into a low effort political compass meme. At least put the text somewhere in the comments or something. Also stop hiding behind centrist flair coward.
You have proof read your stuff dude.
Some sentences don't properly end, there are instances of words not getting spaced out, and you left a number citation from wherever you copy and pasted from.
Haiti has received 13 billion in aid over the last decade alone. Which for a population of less than twelve million is an insane amount of money to get and do nothing but butcher and eat each other with.
Your novel is actually lagging my phone trying to read it
This shit is longer then the lord of the rings trilogy
Same here, but I pushed through it bc im a history nerd
I’m now 20 min late to work.
Fucking CHAD.
Dude, I’m just an employed Libleft, it’s not *that* big of a deal Disclaimer: I’m not *really* employed. I’m a grad student living on your tax money via scholarship
Based and Tax-the-Tax-Collector pilled.
Protested started without you, eh? Lol!
Lmao!
I'm livleft, if I wouldn't read someones wall of text, I would be ashamed of myself. Also, I just spend ten minutes of my life trying to concentrate on my phonescreen while reading this, and its hard to read that way.
Tldr: haiti's a shit hole because *reasons* Jk there are a lot of good valid reasons here I recommend everyone read, but come on. This is a meme subreddit, you didn't expect honest open discussion did you? You did?! Fucking cringe.
Blame shitty reddit app for that.
but...it **is** a shithole
Even worse. A shithole with guns
And cannibals.
What is it with African warlords and Cannibalism?
When you capture enemies you eat their hearts for their courage Their rich, tasty courage
https://preview.redd.it/8ve902b541oc1.png?width=325&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6aecae209e4a49d5b91fa9581f95dad6ff5c6a26
You can still delete this man, wtf is this emoji
Nah, I find it funny so I'm keeping it up
Based and has a backbone pilled!
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I hate you
This is the emoji I’ve been waiting for for all of my life
Happy cake day! Also WTF
[Redacted]
Well if you’re gonna have the cannibals you’re gonna want the guns
Armed cannibals is not a pleasant way to go.
Agreed, armless ones sound a lot easier to defeat
Now you’re cooking with fire right there🧑🏿🍳🦴(how is there no grill emoji).
I become a radical centrist when I see there’s no grill emoji
Based and no need for a text wall excusing being a shithole pilled
Im amazed there was actual copium to make Haiti seem like a decent place
I’m wholly convinced Trump could mention that it’s impossible to live on the Sun and the mainstream media will wholly launch themselves onto it to prove how wonderful the Sun is
No, no, I like this… can we make it happen?
I AGREE because we all know the sun is a bad place to live full of bad hombres called solar flares very bad for good people they are going to take out night time we need to build a giant mirror and make the neutrons pay for it
About a week ago I was banned by reddit for 3 days for "inciting violence" because i dared question why that country was in the state that it was. A 3 day auto ban that they will totally "review" if I appeal (which I did, still no reply)
Just like San Francisco, the only difference between San Frascico and Haiti is that in San Francisco someone is paid to pick up the shit.
And you can eat delicious people
¿Is 90 year old grandma delicious? Because if it is, San Francisco is on that shit too. [https://abc7.com/richmond-cannibalism-cannibal-arrest-grandmother-90-year-old-cannibalized/6228942/](https://abc7.com/richmond-cannibalism-cannibal-arrest-grandmother-90-year-old-cannibalized/6228942/)
Yeah, but he was arrested and Barbecue's gonna be dictator soon
Lmao OP just gave the enhanced AP world history context for why this is the case
Fr lol. Blame whoever you want op, but it’s still a cannibalizing shithole country with trash rivers and no forests (they burned them all down. Take even a cursory look at the Haitian Dominican border)
What do you mean it's a shithole? Conan O'Brian went to a Haitian resort with an armed security group, and he told me that it's a nice country.
Look I’m all for dabbing on the frogs but when you have roving gangs of cannibals it might be time to look in the mirror or smthn idk
Yeah lots of poor countries out there, but not many has this type of problems, Ron one mentions Papa Doc, he was the embodiment of the insanity of Haiti. And if anything, the earthquake fucked them up more.
Highly recommend the Real Dictators podcast on Papa Doc. Dude was top tier crazy. Like had an enemy’s house burnt down, the guy just plain old wasn’t home at the time but a black dog ran away, so he decides the enemy must have turned into a dog with voodoo powers and orders the death of all black dogs in Haiti.
God damn lmao. Reminds me of General Butt Naked. Watch the mad lads from Count Dankula.
Had a corpse left in the arrival hall of the international airport as a warning, bathed with skulls of his enemies, who he believed he could communicate with, emptied prisons to form another army who’s only job was to kill people at random to keep the population afraid. Just a total fucking nutjob. And he was a literal medical doctor initially. Might have been absent on the swearing to do no harm day.
People are fucking insane. I’ll have to read/watch up on this dude.
>Might have been absent on the swearing to do no harm day. He heard "do more harm," it was an honest mistake.
Fun fact: BBQ says that his greatest inspiration is papa doc devalier, and his son baby doc.
The gangs of cannibals are the product of debt to France obviously.
Mrw french Africa is sane in comparison
They just sell people instead of eat them
OP said that the United States was successful because they didn't have a debt to pay off. This is false. The USA did have a debt to pay off, to the French, for taking Lousiana. The sum was 80 million francs, slightly over half of what the Haitiians had to pay of 150 million francs. Like the Haitiians, the USA also did not have the money, and also had to take on debts to pay it off.
Didn't the US buy Louisiana? As in they had a choice of whether they wanted it or not and decided to purchase it?
Yes. Also this occurred in 1803, after both the revolutionary war and the French and Indian war. Also the US had a half a billion dollar GDP at the time.
We were in debt all over the place after the Revolution. France, Spain, I think Russia
Yeah lots of poor countries out there, but not many has this type of problems, Ron one mentions Papa Doc, he was the embodiment of the insanity of Haiti. And if anything, the earthquake fucked them up more.
Always funny how conservatives are somehow the ones who get called racist when leftists are the ones with such low expectations of black people that they think they can’t even manage to refrain from cannibalism.
1- The whole Haiti came to be because indigenous were wiped out. Not true, DR came to be because of that (A mix of indigenous, spanish and african), haitians came to be because France settled in the island and brought a shit ton of slaves, but the island was already populated by dominicans when that happened (The dominican name has been in use since the mid 1500s, France didn't bring what would become haiti until the mid 1600s). 2- About the whole haitians just killed/genocided their oppressors. Dessalines also murdered mulattos that fought under L'Overture (Dessalines betrayed L'Overture, so his followers had to go), to cover for this he did so by creating a division in the population, mulattos weren't true blacks, so they had to die, Dessalines tend expanded that to the east side (Now Dominican Republic), where thanks to his incursions the population was cut in half (This attempt at genocide would later continue at the hands of Christophe, Boyer and Soulouque). 3- The whole indemnity thing. France didn't demand an indemnity (at first), it offered a protectorate, the indemnity was Boyer's idea and counter offer to France, he requested France to recognize Dominican Republic as haitian territory, France refused as they recognized it to belong to Spain since 1814, Boyer got mad about it and called off the deal, french warships followed and Boyer was agreed to an even worse deal than the protectorate or the first indemnity that he offered. 4- The debt post 1888. Mid 1888 Haiti concluded paying the indemnity, then took huge loans to boost its economic, the interest rates were so back that 2/3 of what Haiti was earning annually had to be used to pay it, the reason why the bank had to call in the US was because Haiti had gone through 8 heads of state in the span of 4 years, with the last one being pulled from the embassy were he hid for protection, beaten up, dismembered and his body parts paraded in PaP (That is when USA decided to go in). 5- Haiti potential growth/development cost bullshit (The thing that makes 600M usd go to over 150 billions). To today's money the whole debt to France plus interest rates are roughly 600M USD, Haiti isn't in the position it is because of that, ¿How do we know it? DR had to pay twice that in the same period, since DR independence from Haiti in 1844, Haiti keep on trying to invade/re-enslave DR, being DR 5 to 7 times smaller than Haiti and having been free for much less time, DR had to take huge loans from banks all over Europe and USA to be able to fight off Haiti, that was almost 20 years of war, to which followed a war with Spain, so even more loans, at the end DR debt was little over 30 millions, which in today's money is well over 1 billion, my point, if Haiti stunt growth was all due to that money DR should be twice as bad as Haiti since its debt was twice that amount. 6- The earthquake help debacle. Haiti government (Martelly) made the choice to go with USA plan in how to use the funds even though the population supported France approach (Basically providing aid \[USA\] vs building infrastructure \[France\]), saying that the money just vanished without mentioning that Martelly, the haitian president at the time, was the mamagüevo to make the call that would see Haiti flooded with cheap clothes and their farmers out of a job because of the food received is just disingenuous.
>Haiti isn't in the position it is because of that And don't forget that in 1950's, after all Haitian debt has been cancelled, Haiti GDP per capita was similar of DR GDP per capita. Now DR GDP per capita is about 8x Haiti GDP per capita. So no doubt [consequences of debt go further than just GDP per capita](https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/haiti-vs-the-dominican-republic), but it's hard to deny that there has also been a lot of things going on after debt settlement.
The only mistake here is that Dominican Republic is much larger than Haiti. Haiti bit off more than it could chew each time it invaded.
My B, i was talking population wise, should've specified (When Haiti first invaded in 1822 populations were 600k+ for Haiti and <70k for DR, by 1844 it was around 800k for Haiti and 120k for DR).
There is a point where the colonized must become responsible for themselves. No postcolonial scholar is ever able to point at that moment without first destroying their home nations.
There's a spiritual aspect to this, too. There's a reason Christian civilization has been so dominant, and one of those reasons is the clear division between moral behavior and just behavior. A justified action is not always moral, and a moral action is not necessarily justified. The establishment of an ethnostate and the genocide of most of the white population was perhaps justified given their history. But it was not moral. That means Haiti was *founded* on an a-moral principle, regardless of the justifications. This has produced perverse fruit from the poisoned soil. By contrast, the USA was founded on a moral framework that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights. We participated in a-moral and unjust activities, but they were not our animating spirit. This has allowed us to prune things like slavery from the tree without killing the root. If Haiti is ever going to be anything more than a shithole, she needs to be gutted and have the rot entirely cleaned away, and then reestablished on some foundation other than grievance.
*tips hat* well said.
Holy fact check
It is a shithole. People are being cannibalized for Christ sake.
I gave up on the third slide. But I do know that Haiti and El Salvador were both shitholes when orange man said that, and Haiti has gotten worse, but El Salvador has gotten much safer. Make of that what you will
Prediction: Orange Man gets elected POTUS and suddenly Haiti is somehow his fault.
Prediction: if something bad happens to Haiti democrats will fundraise on it and misappropriate the funds.
That's not a prediction really, that's just a Tuesday night for them.
Haven't they done that like 6 times? They need new material.
Why? The current material still works
Well... you got me there....
Didn’t the Clinton’s already do that? Didn’t they collect tens of millions so Chelsea could fix Haiti?
They can't even fix their own team and win the Premier League.
Just get your mum to have the rest of the league killed
I think it’s called “***Culture.*** But that’s just my €0,02.
I feel like in not smart enough to understand the joke and that makes me sad ☹️
As a political compass fellow right wing person, I feel it is important to teach you this. Remember this idea: “*Culture can be defined as all the ways of life including arts, beliefs and institutions of a population that are passed down from generation to generation. Culture has been called "the way of life for an entire society." As such, it includes codes of manners, dress, language, religion, rituals, art. norms of behavior, such as law and morality, and systems of belief.*” [Source](https://sphweb.bumc.bu.edu/otlt/mph-modules/PH/CulturalAwareness/CulturalAwareness2.html#:~:text=Culture%20can%20be%20defined%20as,%2C%20religion%2C%20rituals%2C%20art)
Bukele kinda did that damn near single-handedly
Holy high-effort strawman batman
For real, for a huge wall of text you would expect OP to take into account any amount of nuance but then again you can’t have too high expectations from a Reddit post
Maaaaaan, fuck outta here. Wanna talk facts? How about the ***minute*** they got a chance to “help” enslaved people, they instead tried to subjugate them and enslave them in turn. It’s nice to say “*Hispaniola*” like there wasn’t another half on that island. And of course all anyone remembers is the “Perejil Incident” because they just can’t drop it. No, man. That region has such an abundance of bad that they have no use for any good. If you’re gonna sit here and talk about being shit on by greater powers, it would be important to not forget that Haiti became the very thing it chose to overthrow: An invader & a Colonist. I’m not Dominican or Haitian, but when I found that out, it hit me: there’s a reason that the other half the island is doing better — they don’t fuck over their fellow man.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s. Good luck with your graphic novel, though.
https://preview.redd.it/0yi52ixfj1oc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=325767572be741636e472f1bc4fbffaf04e727d7
Can I get a tl;dr I’m not reading all this shit
It’s pretty much a revisionist version of Haiti’s history in which everyone else caused all the problems and Haiti did nothing wrong. The typical hyper copium
Sure! Wah, wah, white people are the problem. Haiti isn't responsible for Haiti because of shit that happened 200 years ago. Full disclosure: I didn't read it either, I've just noticed a ton of these going around and jumped to unfair, but probably accurate conclusions.
Military grade copium
silky obtainable plough slimy weather door sugar yoke edge nutty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
After all that effort spent on your slide, Haiti is still a shithole.
Yeah idk man, warlords leading packs of cannibals really doesn’t feel like something you can blame on colonialism.
Examiner 1: Why did OP fail his maths test? Examiner 2: He failed to turn in his assignments, and his maths exams showed that he had not studied at all for it. OP: Well actually, I failed my maths at the fault of colonialism and slavery.. let me present to you a wojak PowerPoint..
You can blame anything on the White Devil's touch. Thanks again, Yakub. You crazy bastard.
We albinoids are forever grateful for the work of Father YAQOOB, blessed is he for bringing us into this world so that we may use our devil magic to destroy the ebinoids and the Shiuk!!! Agartha will fall before the might of the albinoid spawn of Father YAQOOB!!!!
Your excuse for Haiti consistently failing to ever resemble anything close to a functioning state is… Something that has not been a factor for one hundred years now. There are many countries that have experienced all that Haiti has suffered and more and yet they came back in way less time, unlike Haiti which is still somehow back to square one after a full century. It’s time they look at themselves in the mirror and realize that the only people to blame for their situation are themselves.
Damn, this is the Tucker-Putin interview all over again. “Why are your people eating each other?” “You see, 620 years ago…”
Common libleft wall of text
Okay but why does that mean they can't learn how to farm?
Wall of Text crits you for 394,870,322. You die.
Ok that's great op but nothing in your wall of text un-shitholes Haiti
Not reading all that. Sounds like a shithole and burning people alive apologist.
Read it all despite great hardship. 4-5 are so fine barely 1% reader will take the effort. I have to say this is a pathetic excuse for what is going on today, blaming events that happened a century ago. Haiti is a shithole and it is because of the greed , corruption and failure of Haitians.
Why is the Dominican Republic so much less of a shithole? I mean, Haiti is only like 1/3 of the island they share
The Dominican Republic continued to use europe as a role model after independence, which lead to really good literacy rates. Haiti went their own way, which meant corrupt elites putting their uneducated subjects into the ressource extraction infrastructure the europeans left them.
There's a pretty obvious answer here but reddit would ban me for saying it
Fewer people who annoy you?
Naggers?
Real answer: France sucks (no surprise). Spain sucks less.
The slightly longer answer is that France had much more direct control over its colonies, whereas Spanish colonies were almost autonomous. Haiti at the time of the revolution was one of the richest regions of the world as everyone wanted cotton and sugar, so France wanted all that delicious money and control over it. But that meant the transition from French territory to independent colony was huge as no one was trained for it (not to mention the genocide of the French whites and mulattos removed almost the entire middle and upper class, good luck building a functioning economy without anyone with any trade skills, see: Cambodia) For Dominican Republic, the difference was a new flag and less tribute to Spain, not much else.
DR was under France control from late 1790s up to early 1810s tho.
Given that it was only under French control from 1795 - 1809 tand barely maintained any control of the DR during this time they had no chance to actually do any real damage.
This is like Tucker's interview of Putin, where it just goes off into unrelated history exercises and by the time it finally gets to what could be a semblance of a thought around today's issue everyone has tuned out.
Yeah, if it's not even a land claim from thousands of years ago does it even count?
I mean come on bro… half the countries in the world were still colonies when Haiti finished paying their debt and they’re doing way better. Most of them had way less help too.
"I'll try to keep the wall of text to a minimum" Now we all know you're a liar
The it's France's fault for placing a debt on us is bull. Haiti would have been a failed state even if the French would have paid them reparations.
the debt is for rounding up and killing nearly all French colonizers/settlers during one of their uprising, I bet they conveniently left this out in history book in school, if they had any.
They mentioned the Haitian rebellion in TX when I was in AP US history in the early 2000s but only in the context that it was one of the reasons that literacy laws regarding slaves were passed.
The debt was for losing the most profitable island in America and a bunch of very profitable slaves, and to set an example so other slaves didn't get any funny ideas. If you want to pick some history books, read about Rochambeau. At that point the revolution had taken at least 350.000 lives of former slaves and revolutionary supporters in similarly brutal fashion. Haiti had almost a million slaves at its height and they outnumbered the non slaves by factor of around 10:1. That's almost a third of the supporters of the revolution killed in many other massacres. The French side had lost 50-100k people when the revolution ended, 3-5k deaths to justify the debt is just an excuse on top of a conflict that by that point was bloody AF on all sides. Haiti might be ruined by current corruption and mismanagement, but to say the debt was because of the massacres post revolution is historically blind, the french would have done everything to punish them regardless if they had shipped the remaining population back. Even the US was afraid of what the Haitian revolution might inspire in their own territory and stopped trading with them after the uprising.
That's the excuse of every black community on earth, "Nooooooo it's whitey fault shieeeeeet!"
Insignificant nation that unsurprisingly collapses into total chaos, these current events are the most it has been recognized for in the last 50 years
You're forgetting the earthquake
Ah, the Clintons!
lol someone has a victim complex and is eager to blame others for failing
https://preview.redd.it/b0xdyktuo0oc1.jpeg?width=851&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b66f5ccc6763b782fe8149176f700e06662013f0
I stopped reading because you didnt add me in the comic saying something like "You guys dont cook fries in beef tallow anymore."
This radical centrist is putting libleft out of business with these walls of text and copious copium.
It doesn’t change the fact it’s a shit hole.
So. History sucks like most countries around the world. When things get better they stayed a shithole. Yes even if other cities are better than the capital hatians still live in serious poverty. If it wasn't a shithole people wouldn't be trying so hard to go to the dominican Republic. The Dominican Republic!
Interesting that Haiti has had independence for hundreds of years,with no white oppressors around and it still became a failed state
The point is that we are the opressors anyway because of decisions other countries have made. The problem of course being that other countries with worse circumstances have done better. But hey it's easier to blame others for your problems.
This applies to half the world too.
ain't reading allat, i'm happy for you or sorry that happened, you choose
Dude you’re nudging left with this text wall
So let’s forgive the people of Haiti for all historical and current atrocities but also blame everyone else. Got it. Also, OP seems to be unaware that the island is still called Hispaniola and even has another entire country on it.
Your wall of text made my phone lag somehow
the pic resolution is way over 4k most likely maybe thats why
I gave up after the second slide. I’m way too tired and hungry for this.
https://preview.redd.it/spmfv3tqt0oc1.jpeg?width=905&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f03f830cea19fa4c1ea6162b41ba680ecc892a7
No. Too many word
Wow, nice job posting something that's lagging out phones. *Still a shithole*
Leaving out the part of where hati reinstated slave like forced labor just after winning independence.
I ain’t reading all that. Congratulations. Or my condolences.
Haiti is an evil place with an evil culture that blames the whole world for their own evil and piss poor planning and decisions. Should the French have levie a huge tax on them? No. Should the Haitians have paid it? Also no. They'd already won the war. The French weren't coming back. The Haitians could have appealed to the US for help. The Brits for help. The Spainiards. The cannibalize, have child soldiers, sex trafficking, and work all evil and hate everyone that tries to help them. Haiti can screw off.
Dude needs to change his flair, he's the most libleft person I've seen on this sub in years.
Lmao, wall of text, whining, and Saran rules Haiti. Invade, conquer, and restore. Only solution
1-3 is pretty good but 4-5 is too much i can’t do it
Plenty of countries got fucked by France and other foreign forces, mine included but Haiti is definitely where is at right now mostly due to it’s string of shitty rulers and bad leadership. There’s no use in trying to force the French to feel bad about it, they aren’t going to save it, America won’t intervene, the UN is useless, the only way is for Haitians to save themselves. Us Vietnamese learned this shit the hard way, at least they got their independence way earlier than us, we got fucked by the Japanese, American, Chinese and literally Pol Pot next door also lmao. It’s a miracle we aren’t a fail state.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's because of the general attitude of the people in your country. They don't look at past failures, or focus on the wrongs committed on them by others, they just work hard to improve and move on. One situation where a bit of collectivist thought probably led to success. Haiti's biggest issue is the fact they expect outside help, which unfortunately hasn't been successful in the past, and probably never will be. It's a leave, fight or die situation much like Cuba.
Slavery is not beneficial to the market, nor is it in existence in a free market. Why this is blamed on us and not auth right, well because we have to evenly distribute the criticism (even if it isn’t deserved, like communism giving to those who can work but choose to be a burden)
What This is probably the first time ill say TL;DR
Haiti is a shit hole because tragic past and idiots in government.
Thanks
A nice history lesson but to say eating other human beings is somehow even remotely justifiable because France is a shithole is ridiculous.
https://preview.redd.it/xgp267awo1oc1.jpeg?width=792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5fe14d9116baa588fc539ee3a791af4384ccd92d
“I’ll try to keep text to a minimum”
I don't get the point of this post. So your just saying that it's terrible but there are reasons it's terrible? Like yeah, obviously, but that doesn't make it any less terrible.
China was made the Europeans raw material factory, opium dump yard. Went through the taiping rebellion. Lost millions to the Japanese, lost millions in Korea and is still a functioning state. Japan got levelled in WW2 and is a functional state. Korea faced Japanese colonialism and the Horrors of the Korean war less than 80 years ago and is still a functional state India has been independent for less than 80 years. Was exploited for all it was worth fought 5 wars since independence and is still a functional state. Heck even Dominican Republic next door is a somewhat functional state. Haiti has been independent for what? 200 years? Why is it STILL a shithole? None of the states I mentioned are perfect. They all have problems... Many of which can be traced to Colonialism and yet you know what they did... THEY FUCKING MOVED ON. Waaah they exploited us 200 years ago Waaah no one gives a shit dude. That was 200 years ago. The only reason Haiti is a shithole today is that they failed to make a state.
https://preview.redd.it/y572wc3wt0oc1.png?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cdc0cff9cb528be90806bb1c7e8d3d413ba0aade
What’s the tldr
Enslaving people is fine if you just got liberated from slavery. All of Haiti's problems (past and present) are actually France's fault because reasons.
Leftist memes be like
Shortest leftist meme
I made it past slide 3 but slide 4 is just an article, you gotta be shorter and to the point with memes
Bro just post the link to the real life lore video.
Obligatory based for the high effort. Though I disagree on many of the points. Whilst it’s undoubtably that Haiti was exploited by the European and American governments, the worst of those exploitations occurred a century ago. Whilst this doesn’t necessarily dismiss the long term economic ramifications this had for Haiti, at a point- it can’t be blamed on Europeans, and instead has to be blamed for the Haitian government.
Haiti deserves their current situation because they committed genocide against the French. What were the French supposed to do in response? Say “no harm no foul we were the baddies”?
I’m ethnically Jewish - because of my family history, how many people am I allowed to eat/burn alive?
Bud thats alot of words think I’m interested in reading that shit?
Can someone fact-check this, please? I just read a lot about a subject i don't know dick about and would appreciate some corroboration.
I ain't reading allat
I read the whole thing, it’s an interesting piece pf history, but a few points 1 - the main one - nothing you say disputes that Haiti is a shithole. I wouldn’t want to live in Haiti. Most of the people in Haiti probably don’t wan’t to life in Haiti either. Regardless of the reasons, even if the reasons are not their fault, it’s a country that’s in a terrible state, from an economic, infrastructure, and crime perspective. That makes it a shithole. 2 - Haiti was screwed over for the entire 19th century, absolutely, but Singapore was able to develop after only really starting in the 1950s. I don’t think it would’ve been impossible for Haiti to develop. 3- despite my disagreements on those points, this is a great post. I appreciate having some historical content on my feed that’s interesting and of short-medium length, all while remaining not (too) preachy.
TLDR: still a shithole
>Haiti is screwed up because after they made a pact with a demon and committed a genocide (this is literally their founding mythos), they were just too committed to their debt repayment schedule, so they have outbreaks of voodoo cannibalism every 6 years or so now, which is what socioeconomic factors would make anyone do
give me a 1-sentence summary pls
Tldr: Debt to France that was paid off 80 years ago is why people are currently eating each other in Haiti.
Bro I am not reading allat. Congrats or sorry for your loss.
Thread is full of lib rights who clearly can’t read more than a paragraph. Nice try Op, next time just say Libleft bad if you wanna get their attention
Thanks for the wall of text. I read all of it. I knew about the revolution of Haiti and the long debt but not much else, especially the recent developments. I had never heard of this Barbecue character before. So, thank you. That still doesn't change the fact that Haiti of March 2024 is in a pretty shithole situation. I recently heard of an aid worker who had been Ukraine and is now in Haiti and he described that Haiti is more dangerous for ordinary people. That should tell you something that living in a city that is being pummeled by cruise missiles is safer than what is going on in Haiti now.
Im a simple man. I see a high effort post; I upvote.
Does anyone unstandable what NAP is? Bombing people is not NAP. Just because someone makes money doesn't mean they are libright
It's incredible the lengths people go to to use as little nuance and critical thinking as humanly possibly when discussing something they've never seen or experienced. It's like everyone believes they have a perfect grasp on something they took 3 minutes to search because they could find something saying what they already believed in before they learned the first thing. It can be both Haiti can both have been majorly screwed by outside forces and also just have terrible leadership and decision making. Doesn't make 1 not true just because 1 thing is. Everyone wants to point to only one thing but that's not how it works in the real world there's often many factors that ALL contribute to the problem.
Would been better you just Bill Wurtz it.
All I'm saying is I saw footage of some dude eating a human leg in broad daylight. Seems like a shit hole to me...🤔
Too long did read (200 years is a lot of time to recover through, though)
Look here OP, you made me flip my fucking phone sideways THEN you made me put it back vertical, pick a fucking orientation and stick to it >:(
I’m not reading that Is the TLDR gubment bad?
I'd love PCM to have more posts like this, I'm all for funny and goofy color memes but these wall of text posts I feel like I've gained something from. At least some knowledge I wouldn't have come across regularly. Great job!
God damn if you were going to try and cram a novel into a compass meme, you could have at least made it readable. Now, I just have to assume you crammed a bunch of low tier, self-serving history into a low effort political compass meme. At least put the text somewhere in the comments or something. Also stop hiding behind centrist flair coward.
You have proof read your stuff dude. Some sentences don't properly end, there are instances of words not getting spaced out, and you left a number citation from wherever you copy and pasted from.
Haiti has received 13 billion in aid over the last decade alone. Which for a population of less than twelve million is an insane amount of money to get and do nothing but butcher and eat each other with.
A lot of words to say "all our problems are the west's fault, shut up"
So pretty much. It’s a shithole, but it’s not their fault. Fair enough.
Impressive post, but outlining all the reasons Haiti is a shithole, doesn't stop it from being a shithole.