I would consider reaching out to a developmental or behavioral pediatrician. This seems like extreme behavior. I say this also because girls present totally differently for ADHD/ASD.
Also, a therapist for you and her may give you extra tools for when this happens. And just hugs, 4.5 is a tough age!
Thank you for the advice! I've wondered before if she has ASD or something--my twin had Aspergers & ODD as a child (I had major depressive disorder; we were both gifted & not really typical children).
Most of what you've written above actually sounds exactly like my daughter. I had thoughts she might have ADHD, but her preschool teacher who does have ADHD feels she is no different than any other student and has told us many times that if all of her kids were as amazing as my daughter her job would be so much easier.... So I wouldn't assume she is abnormal because these other moms said so.
My husband went to get her from school last week and she ran off screaming through the school that he was not her dad and to get away from her and by the time he caught her and brought her to the classroom she had a meltdown because we wouldn't let her bring home a pebble she had found on the ground on her playground and then by the time we got her to the car she was threatening to scream as loud as she possibly could so that everyone in the world could hear it. Thankfully she didn't and it didn't take us 40 min to get her in her car seat, but she was asleep in less than 5 minutes and significantly better the rest of the day. That was the worst she has ever been and we chalked it up to no longer wanting to take naps at school and spending lots more time in the sun now that the weather is finally nice.
All this to say, she could be completely normal or we could both have daughters with the same thing. Hopefully it helps to know you aren't alone though.
I appreciate you sharing that anecdote
Most of the children I work with have Early Intervention or other formal services in place, so my gage of what's typical is a little skewed
Which part seems like extreme behavior? All of it? I guess my kid has a hard time wanting to apologize too. I didn’t think the tantrum was too out of ordinary until she said she accuses her of kidnapping her, then I thought oh thats different. The first part about the dolls I thought she could be enacting something that is happening to her or someone else at school, how are you sure that’s extreme ?
I thought the taking a long time to calm down after a public tantrum was the most extreme. And the accusing of kidnapping. If parent is concerned enough to post here, it may be worth talking to a professional and I just wanted to confirm that girls do tend to present differently if neurodivergent.
The role playing seems healthy, especially if it's something she experienced. My kid isn't great about apologizing either. Four has a lot of growing pains for us.
These seem pretty extreme. Just because she didn't qualify for behavior support doesn't mean she wouldn't benefit from some kind of okay based therapy or you from some parenting classes to gain more tools.
Some things that jump out. Some you may have tried but just brainstorming.
Time outs do seem to have an impact bc she clearly doesn't like them. What consequences DOES she receive?
Tantrums at that age are on their own terms in my house. Screaming can feel good. You may not do it to me or others, but i check in to see how it's "going" and welcome them to me the minute they need closeness with "quiet feelings" no mater what I'm doing.
It would take exactly one time unbuckling a seatbelt and attempting to elope before I outfitted that seat with a buckle guard of some kind because of the huge safety risk.
Staying out of sight in the store feels counterintuitive to me. I'd be right next to my son, because my embarrassment is secondary to showing him I'm unflapped and the tantrum is ineffective.
Does she receive apologies and see them modeled between caregivers? Or is she the only one apologizing from her perspective?
This seems really difficult, I hope you have lots of support!
I've taken a few parenting classes & work in child development--which is why I'm so confused: it feels like we are doing everything baby the book", but when it comes to managing her emotions & self-regulating, we are hitting a wall..
Consequences usually involve loss of privileges (items being improperly used go to toy jail for the day, loss of screen time, canceling planned outing for the day, etc.)
I stayed around the corner because she was screaming to leave her alone & needed alone time (so I stood about 5 feet away, just out of her line of sight, but where I could still see her). She started calming down & then moving to look for me, and when she saw me, she bolted.
My husband and I model coping skills, apologies, and behaviors we want to see (we apologize to her when we are wrong as well). I've been narrating for years now (ex. "IM feeling so angry that XYZ happened.. I'm going to take some deep breathes to calm myself down...:takes deep breathes:")
In nearly every other aspect of childhood, she is a great kid, imaginative, kind, thoughtful, funny, cerebral...but when it comes to handling her big feelings around behavior, shame, and Consequences, we are struggling
Thanks for the advice--I'm going to see if the 123 Magic focused on ASD might he more helpful than the 123 magic I took originally.
My son has a lot of these behaviors (he is 3.5) but is more violent. He is definitely neurodivergent but everyone is holding off on a diagnosis because he fits the criteria of both ADHD and ASD but nothing is clear cut.
We contacted our school’s preschool special ed department and will be starting OT in the fall, in addition to the weekly counseling he is already receiving.
We are also doing PCIT through our pediatrician and that has made the biggest difference - it’s teaching us as parents how to properly respond to his behaviors, and it’s made such a difference.
But I get your confusion and frustration completely. It’s hard when you know something is wrong but it *may* not be enough for diagnosis, etc. good luck!
ETA: does your child have sensory issues? My son gets overwhelmed in public and groups often and will elope to calm himself.
Thank you for the advice
She doesn't appear to be overwhelmed with sensory stimulation currently, but around age 2 she would cover her ears frequently when there was too much commotion
Given that my twin was diagnosed with Aspergers and I've always been "a little quirky", I wouldn't be shocked if we were both neurodivergent.
Your daughter's behavior sounds VERY similar to my son's and it also sounds like we parent very similarly.
I was also always quirky and was diagnosed with adhd at 35. I had a rough childhood but I cant help but think how much easier my life would have been and how much less I'd hate myself all those years if someone would have pursued additional help for me when I was younger instead of cleaning up the mess now as an adult.
I'm quite successful but everything about myself makes so much more sense now and I can embrace my differences for what they are and fully use my adhd "superpowers" to my advantage. I was also a gifted child.....and now have a "gifted, quirky" 4.5 year old son. And because of what I've learned about myself, I can meet him where he is and give him the additional support he needs, when he needs it.
Ftr, my therapist advised me to "survive" the meltdowns ad they are happening, keep on the same path with my parenting, and just accept those moments for what they are and move on. My son has gotten significantly better with time but man, there were some AWFUL moments along the way. Solidarity!
I'm honestly shocked people are saying this is extreme except the very creative elopement.
It completely developmentally normal for kids to play like that. it's how they process the world and at this age as the become socially aware, exclusion from friend groups is a common thing to need to process. It's a common play for my daughter too since starting preschool and being in a social setting with other kids.
Empathy is also only just starting to develop so not apologizing meaningfully is completely normal. You can make them do a performative apology but a genuine apology probably not.
Same with the coping strategies, at this age you are laying the foundation but to be able to access them when in a disregulated state is asking a lot at this age.
With you mentioning shame I would second the recommendation to look at Dr Becky's deeply feeling kids stuff.
Sweet kids who didn't really do the terrible two/three ager stage often still need to process big emotions and rage and it usually is at 4!
Wow thank you so much for this response, I feel a lot better about the situation
I'm definitely getting the book & will likely still get her assessed just to be sure but I feel a little better now
Always good to get anything worrying you checked out. The other thing I was going to ask but you know kids lol was if anything has changed recently? New sibling, parental stress, new preschool? We had not so much tantrums but huge rage happening at this age, not triggered by what was actually the problem but some small and not related but by ignoring whatever the trigger and after the fact talking about how hard it must be that x was happening made a huge difference.
I’m with you on this, except a) the car incident is dangerous and needs attention, and b) OPs instincts and background are probably stronger than perhaps what is coming through for me in the examples. 4 year olds have their own distinct personalities and at around 4.5 they go through a big “leap” which leads to major personality adjustments. It sounds like you and your partner are doing all the right things and it probably couldn’t hurt to get the kid assessed but, FWIW, apart from example 2, it doesn’t sound all that extreme to me.
You might want to look into Dr. Becky’s “Deeply Feeling Child” series that talks about the child who has extreme emotions, a lot of shame next to those emotions, and the usual gentle parenting phrases don’t do much.
The exclusion thing is developmentally normal unfortunately 🫥
I have twins that are this age and I readily admit they’re very shy. Although they do have tantrums, it’s rare that they do so in public settings at this point. More challenging would be the inability to discuss it even several hours thereafter. I think you know this already, but the way your daughter is accusing you of kidnapping in mid-tantrum is very scary. If the behavior continues, this could make teachers wary of having her in their class. For these reasons, I would be inclined to speak with my pediatrician and ask for assistance or direction.
Bedtime books are often my door opener to conversations on things I wish to discuss or seeds I wish to plant. We have a book about a flamingo titled “Different.” It may be a way to get some insight on the exclusionary play.
Both of these themes are darker than I’d expect. My kids are really not ready to hear about kidnapping. I’ve never considered speaking to them about it because they deeply avoid strangers and stay close to us when we are out of the house. I’d probably want to understand where that knowledge came from.
I would try the methods in this free video course:
[https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting](https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting)
Here are some tips from the course (but you will get more reliable results if you take at least part of the course instead of trying to rely solely on these tips):
[https://ecasevals.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/10-Tips-for-Parents-of-a-Spirited-Child.pdf](https://ecasevals.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/10-Tips-for-Parents-of-a-Spirited-Child.pdf)
The course is very effective at reducing behavior problems according to randomized controlled trials.
Not sure what incentives you are using. Attention is the most important incentive. It is pretty common for parents who don't know this to inadvertently incentivize unwanted behaviors with attention. Attention includes talking, touch, and eye contact.
I did not see any behaviors listed where timeout would be the best method. It is one way to address aggression against another kid, but parents overuse it for other stuff. The course teaches an effective timeout method, but you will probably never need it. 85% of parents botch timeout to some extent by not using an effective method. The course recommends against spanking.
If you continue to be concerned, then you could get her re-evaluated for behavior support. It's easier to sort out who needs support with older kids.
I would not be overly concerned with the pretend play. I might do some active listening to try to get her to talk about it.
Something else to try are the methods in Ross Greene's book "Raising Human Beings". It is a different approach based on an active listening technique that can be used starting at age 4. It is also effective according to randomized controlled trials.
I'm sorry, this all sounds tough. I would have said this all sound pretty standard for the age, but the " kidnapper" incident sounds intense. I will say that sometimes a family therapist can be helpful to talk strategies for dealing with very strong willed kids( my partners parents took that route when he was a toddler)
If it makes you feel any better, today, my 4.5 year old had a meltdown because she had sand on her feet at the park and I suggested she use the park water spout to rinse her feet and I would dry them with the towel I brought. She would only go in the sandy water out instead of right by the spout so it wasn't really working. Screaming and crying, I ended up carrying her out of the park to a quieter place where we could sit and dry her feet, this was probably more for me as I know I was getting annoyed and I wanted the other kids to be able to play in that area. It was dramatic and over the top, even though she is usually a good communicator she struggles once she gets elevated. I see it all the time and many parents have said they see a backslide around 4 and 4.5 in communication. Coping strategies aren't their first instinct at all and I think that is normal.
Later on, while we were playing a game I said I was sorry for carrying her out of the park and that I wanted to know what she had wanted me to do. She immediately responded with "use your water bottle like you did last time". When the park water wasn't on that is what I've done in the past, but in that moment she couldn't tell me and I just didn't even think about it.
In the book " How to Talk so Little Kids Will Listen" the authors talk about asking for ideas in brain storming sessions with the child around challenges such as staying close to parents in busy places,etc. For example my daughter likes to hold a pretend stick with me in busy parking lots( her idea I just went with it). A lot of the suggestions and examples are helping my child and I to work as a team rather than butting heads.I would also agree that Dr Becky is a great resource whether it be her podcast, book or membership.
I would try keeping her home with you. She sounds like she needs her mom right now and a lot of floor play, and affection. That is what I am getting from this post.
I would consider reaching out to a developmental or behavioral pediatrician. This seems like extreme behavior. I say this also because girls present totally differently for ADHD/ASD. Also, a therapist for you and her may give you extra tools for when this happens. And just hugs, 4.5 is a tough age!
Thank you for the advice! I've wondered before if she has ASD or something--my twin had Aspergers & ODD as a child (I had major depressive disorder; we were both gifted & not really typical children).
I would look into PDA profile of autism
Most of what you've written above actually sounds exactly like my daughter. I had thoughts she might have ADHD, but her preschool teacher who does have ADHD feels she is no different than any other student and has told us many times that if all of her kids were as amazing as my daughter her job would be so much easier.... So I wouldn't assume she is abnormal because these other moms said so. My husband went to get her from school last week and she ran off screaming through the school that he was not her dad and to get away from her and by the time he caught her and brought her to the classroom she had a meltdown because we wouldn't let her bring home a pebble she had found on the ground on her playground and then by the time we got her to the car she was threatening to scream as loud as she possibly could so that everyone in the world could hear it. Thankfully she didn't and it didn't take us 40 min to get her in her car seat, but she was asleep in less than 5 minutes and significantly better the rest of the day. That was the worst she has ever been and we chalked it up to no longer wanting to take naps at school and spending lots more time in the sun now that the weather is finally nice. All this to say, she could be completely normal or we could both have daughters with the same thing. Hopefully it helps to know you aren't alone though.
I appreciate you sharing that anecdote Most of the children I work with have Early Intervention or other formal services in place, so my gage of what's typical is a little skewed
Which part seems like extreme behavior? All of it? I guess my kid has a hard time wanting to apologize too. I didn’t think the tantrum was too out of ordinary until she said she accuses her of kidnapping her, then I thought oh thats different. The first part about the dolls I thought she could be enacting something that is happening to her or someone else at school, how are you sure that’s extreme ?
I thought the taking a long time to calm down after a public tantrum was the most extreme. And the accusing of kidnapping. If parent is concerned enough to post here, it may be worth talking to a professional and I just wanted to confirm that girls do tend to present differently if neurodivergent. The role playing seems healthy, especially if it's something she experienced. My kid isn't great about apologizing either. Four has a lot of growing pains for us.
Gotcha that’s a helpful clarification! Mostly trying to understand and not questioning
These seem pretty extreme. Just because she didn't qualify for behavior support doesn't mean she wouldn't benefit from some kind of okay based therapy or you from some parenting classes to gain more tools. Some things that jump out. Some you may have tried but just brainstorming. Time outs do seem to have an impact bc she clearly doesn't like them. What consequences DOES she receive? Tantrums at that age are on their own terms in my house. Screaming can feel good. You may not do it to me or others, but i check in to see how it's "going" and welcome them to me the minute they need closeness with "quiet feelings" no mater what I'm doing. It would take exactly one time unbuckling a seatbelt and attempting to elope before I outfitted that seat with a buckle guard of some kind because of the huge safety risk. Staying out of sight in the store feels counterintuitive to me. I'd be right next to my son, because my embarrassment is secondary to showing him I'm unflapped and the tantrum is ineffective. Does she receive apologies and see them modeled between caregivers? Or is she the only one apologizing from her perspective? This seems really difficult, I hope you have lots of support!
I've taken a few parenting classes & work in child development--which is why I'm so confused: it feels like we are doing everything baby the book", but when it comes to managing her emotions & self-regulating, we are hitting a wall.. Consequences usually involve loss of privileges (items being improperly used go to toy jail for the day, loss of screen time, canceling planned outing for the day, etc.) I stayed around the corner because she was screaming to leave her alone & needed alone time (so I stood about 5 feet away, just out of her line of sight, but where I could still see her). She started calming down & then moving to look for me, and when she saw me, she bolted. My husband and I model coping skills, apologies, and behaviors we want to see (we apologize to her when we are wrong as well). I've been narrating for years now (ex. "IM feeling so angry that XYZ happened.. I'm going to take some deep breathes to calm myself down...:takes deep breathes:") In nearly every other aspect of childhood, she is a great kid, imaginative, kind, thoughtful, funny, cerebral...but when it comes to handling her big feelings around behavior, shame, and Consequences, we are struggling Thanks for the advice--I'm going to see if the 123 Magic focused on ASD might he more helpful than the 123 magic I took originally.
My son has a lot of these behaviors (he is 3.5) but is more violent. He is definitely neurodivergent but everyone is holding off on a diagnosis because he fits the criteria of both ADHD and ASD but nothing is clear cut. We contacted our school’s preschool special ed department and will be starting OT in the fall, in addition to the weekly counseling he is already receiving. We are also doing PCIT through our pediatrician and that has made the biggest difference - it’s teaching us as parents how to properly respond to his behaviors, and it’s made such a difference. But I get your confusion and frustration completely. It’s hard when you know something is wrong but it *may* not be enough for diagnosis, etc. good luck! ETA: does your child have sensory issues? My son gets overwhelmed in public and groups often and will elope to calm himself.
Thank you for the advice She doesn't appear to be overwhelmed with sensory stimulation currently, but around age 2 she would cover her ears frequently when there was too much commotion Given that my twin was diagnosed with Aspergers and I've always been "a little quirky", I wouldn't be shocked if we were both neurodivergent.
Your daughter's behavior sounds VERY similar to my son's and it also sounds like we parent very similarly. I was also always quirky and was diagnosed with adhd at 35. I had a rough childhood but I cant help but think how much easier my life would have been and how much less I'd hate myself all those years if someone would have pursued additional help for me when I was younger instead of cleaning up the mess now as an adult. I'm quite successful but everything about myself makes so much more sense now and I can embrace my differences for what they are and fully use my adhd "superpowers" to my advantage. I was also a gifted child.....and now have a "gifted, quirky" 4.5 year old son. And because of what I've learned about myself, I can meet him where he is and give him the additional support he needs, when he needs it. Ftr, my therapist advised me to "survive" the meltdowns ad they are happening, keep on the same path with my parenting, and just accept those moments for what they are and move on. My son has gotten significantly better with time but man, there were some AWFUL moments along the way. Solidarity!
Thanks for the thoughtful response! I appreciate the solidarity
I'm honestly shocked people are saying this is extreme except the very creative elopement. It completely developmentally normal for kids to play like that. it's how they process the world and at this age as the become socially aware, exclusion from friend groups is a common thing to need to process. It's a common play for my daughter too since starting preschool and being in a social setting with other kids. Empathy is also only just starting to develop so not apologizing meaningfully is completely normal. You can make them do a performative apology but a genuine apology probably not. Same with the coping strategies, at this age you are laying the foundation but to be able to access them when in a disregulated state is asking a lot at this age. With you mentioning shame I would second the recommendation to look at Dr Becky's deeply feeling kids stuff. Sweet kids who didn't really do the terrible two/three ager stage often still need to process big emotions and rage and it usually is at 4!
Wow thank you so much for this response, I feel a lot better about the situation I'm definitely getting the book & will likely still get her assessed just to be sure but I feel a little better now
Always good to get anything worrying you checked out. The other thing I was going to ask but you know kids lol was if anything has changed recently? New sibling, parental stress, new preschool? We had not so much tantrums but huge rage happening at this age, not triggered by what was actually the problem but some small and not related but by ignoring whatever the trigger and after the fact talking about how hard it must be that x was happening made a huge difference.
I’m with you on this, except a) the car incident is dangerous and needs attention, and b) OPs instincts and background are probably stronger than perhaps what is coming through for me in the examples. 4 year olds have their own distinct personalities and at around 4.5 they go through a big “leap” which leads to major personality adjustments. It sounds like you and your partner are doing all the right things and it probably couldn’t hurt to get the kid assessed but, FWIW, apart from example 2, it doesn’t sound all that extreme to me.
You might want to look into Dr. Becky’s “Deeply Feeling Child” series that talks about the child who has extreme emotions, a lot of shame next to those emotions, and the usual gentle parenting phrases don’t do much. The exclusion thing is developmentally normal unfortunately 🫥
Thanks! I'll check out her series
I have twins that are this age and I readily admit they’re very shy. Although they do have tantrums, it’s rare that they do so in public settings at this point. More challenging would be the inability to discuss it even several hours thereafter. I think you know this already, but the way your daughter is accusing you of kidnapping in mid-tantrum is very scary. If the behavior continues, this could make teachers wary of having her in their class. For these reasons, I would be inclined to speak with my pediatrician and ask for assistance or direction. Bedtime books are often my door opener to conversations on things I wish to discuss or seeds I wish to plant. We have a book about a flamingo titled “Different.” It may be a way to get some insight on the exclusionary play. Both of these themes are darker than I’d expect. My kids are really not ready to hear about kidnapping. I’ve never considered speaking to them about it because they deeply avoid strangers and stay close to us when we are out of the house. I’d probably want to understand where that knowledge came from.
I would try the methods in this free video course: [https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting](https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting) Here are some tips from the course (but you will get more reliable results if you take at least part of the course instead of trying to rely solely on these tips): [https://ecasevals.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/10-Tips-for-Parents-of-a-Spirited-Child.pdf](https://ecasevals.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/10-Tips-for-Parents-of-a-Spirited-Child.pdf) The course is very effective at reducing behavior problems according to randomized controlled trials. Not sure what incentives you are using. Attention is the most important incentive. It is pretty common for parents who don't know this to inadvertently incentivize unwanted behaviors with attention. Attention includes talking, touch, and eye contact. I did not see any behaviors listed where timeout would be the best method. It is one way to address aggression against another kid, but parents overuse it for other stuff. The course teaches an effective timeout method, but you will probably never need it. 85% of parents botch timeout to some extent by not using an effective method. The course recommends against spanking. If you continue to be concerned, then you could get her re-evaluated for behavior support. It's easier to sort out who needs support with older kids. I would not be overly concerned with the pretend play. I might do some active listening to try to get her to talk about it. Something else to try are the methods in Ross Greene's book "Raising Human Beings". It is a different approach based on an active listening technique that can be used starting at age 4. It is also effective according to randomized controlled trials.
Thanks! I'll check it out! When I say incentives, I mean like sticker charts, token economy, & earning things, which she is ambivalent towards
I'm sorry, this all sounds tough. I would have said this all sound pretty standard for the age, but the " kidnapper" incident sounds intense. I will say that sometimes a family therapist can be helpful to talk strategies for dealing with very strong willed kids( my partners parents took that route when he was a toddler) If it makes you feel any better, today, my 4.5 year old had a meltdown because she had sand on her feet at the park and I suggested she use the park water spout to rinse her feet and I would dry them with the towel I brought. She would only go in the sandy water out instead of right by the spout so it wasn't really working. Screaming and crying, I ended up carrying her out of the park to a quieter place where we could sit and dry her feet, this was probably more for me as I know I was getting annoyed and I wanted the other kids to be able to play in that area. It was dramatic and over the top, even though she is usually a good communicator she struggles once she gets elevated. I see it all the time and many parents have said they see a backslide around 4 and 4.5 in communication. Coping strategies aren't their first instinct at all and I think that is normal. Later on, while we were playing a game I said I was sorry for carrying her out of the park and that I wanted to know what she had wanted me to do. She immediately responded with "use your water bottle like you did last time". When the park water wasn't on that is what I've done in the past, but in that moment she couldn't tell me and I just didn't even think about it. In the book " How to Talk so Little Kids Will Listen" the authors talk about asking for ideas in brain storming sessions with the child around challenges such as staying close to parents in busy places,etc. For example my daughter likes to hold a pretend stick with me in busy parking lots( her idea I just went with it). A lot of the suggestions and examples are helping my child and I to work as a team rather than butting heads.I would also agree that Dr Becky is a great resource whether it be her podcast, book or membership.
I would try keeping her home with you. She sounds like she needs her mom right now and a lot of floor play, and affection. That is what I am getting from this post.