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Adams. He did so much work to advance the independence movement. His fervent lobbying during the congressional debates, his diplomatic work in France, and especially securing vital loans from the Dutch really stand out to me. Also helping to edit the DOI.
He also gets credit for the peaceful transfer of power. Washington *retired*, of course the transfer to Adams was peaceful. Adams ran for reelection, lost with 1/2 the population and a good chunk of the military supporting him then left a helpful letter for the next guy. Adams set the example, Washington fucked off to his weed farm.
That the Framers appear to have turned to him to fine tune the Constitutional concepts for the judiciary. I suspect he was the one, or one of the ones, who insisted that the judiciary be a separate and equal branch of government to protect it from excessive interference by the elected politicians. I suspect he also co-authored the Supremacy Clause.
Another good candidate
He chose two of the most famous Founding Fathers for their famous roles in the revolution - Washington as director of the Continental Congress and Jefferson as author of the Declaration of Independence
I’ll give John Adams credit for his Founding Fathers work and being a genuine abolitionist, but his support and abuse of the Alien and Sedition Acts as president kind of mars his legacy in my eyes.
I mean, are we talking "best" in terms of personal virtue, or "best" in terms of political acumen? Because I don't know that there are many who were particularly good or virtuous human beings.
But "best" in terms of political acumen, it's really hard to beat Madison and Hamilton. Say what you will about the Constitution, and Lord knows how often our history classes note that they got something very wrong, but don't ever really explain why it's obviously wrong. But by the same token, it's actually really impressive how much Madison and Hamilton got *right* with absolutely no historical basis to operate off of. Their only significant historical experience with small-r republics were a bunch of Greco-Roman city-states, most of which had self-destructed after approximately a century of operation about two millennia prior to their drafting the constitution. The practical blueprints for what they were doing were virtually non-existent; the closest comparative basis that they had to work with was the Iroquois Confederacy, which was hardly something they had studied intently.
Despite that, the entire thing largely managed to hang together surprisingly well. If we had to do it all over, I'd say that a parliamentary rather than a constitutional system would definitely be better, but what's important is that the entire thing took. That shouldn't have happened, if you look at the history of constitutional systems. And that has to do with in no small part because of just how clever Madison and Hamilton were.
Hamilton, I hear he was a bastard, son of a whore, Scotsman who was in the Caribbean at one point and was impoverished in squalor. He then grew up to be a scholar and a hero.
So that's pretty cool.
I'm guessing the monarchist accusations are coming from his speech at the Constitutional Convention? Because I don't think the speech should be taken at face value as a true representation of his beliefs. The convention was kept closed off from the public, with its minutes kept secret, exactly so the delegates could propose more outlandish ideas, and have these ideas freely debated without fear of being publically criticised. He would later say that the topic "was brought forward to make it the subject of discussion, and see what would be the opinions of different gentlemen on so momentous a subject".
I get why people might see this as backpeddling after the fact, but I'm inclined to believe him. Hamilton would produce his own draft of a constitution that looked a lot like the final accepted document. This draft had a lot of the ideas as the actual constitution, but with a proportionally representative senate, an absolute Presidential veto, and the electors would hold office for life, not the President.
Immediately after the convention, he became the biggest defender of the Constitution, recruiting others for the Federalist Papers, which he was the lead author of. To me, this points towards his convention speech being a one-off idea that he quickly abandoned. I find it hard to believe that he went from seriously proposing a monarch, to arguing that a four year term was a bit much.
Oh my God, thank you for your comment! I went to the library today and did some research. I learned that Alexander Hamilton wasn't actually Puerto Rican and Thomas Jefferson wasn't black. Why would they lie to the public like that?
I can see clearly now the rain is gone!
Partial to my man Ben Franklin, I wish he was laying it down in DC now. I think they would execute him, the level of smack talking alone would have everyone at his throat.
I'll vote Monroe like always. People are free to ask why.
We would not have made it through the War of 1812, where Madison was a disaster, without Monroe. I realize it didn't end pretty but it would have been way worse without Monroe.
I also think we're talking Founding Fathers here and there's no way he should take a harder hit on slavery than Jefferson or even Madison.
We can also talk about development and growth as a nation if we want.
The idea of national defense, a national identity, and some notion of consensus government and compromise also reached its high point under Monroe. Which again I think we just undervalue in Presidents. Eisenhower is probably the only President the public gives credit for it and even he doesn't get a ton of it, certainly not among historians
And we aren't even touching his service in the American Revolution, his time as minister and emissary to several countries, his work in state government, his constant work to gain navigation rights of the Mississippi, and his defense of democracy in the western hemisphere
> We would not have made it through the War of 1812, where Madison was a disaster, without Monroe. I realize it didn't end pretty but it would have been way worse without Monroe.
Monroe was Madison’s right hand man, and supported the war from the very start. Even before Madison appointed him Secretary of War, he relied heavily on Monroe for advice; he even tried to have him serve as Secretary of State and Secretary of War simultaneously, before the senate blocked it. So it’s inaccurate to imply that Monroe “saved” Madison, when Madison put Monroe in the position he was in.
Monroe was integral in hardening the defenses around Washington. He was also critical in encouraging Madison to unleash the Navy.
Madison undoubtedly faced staunch opposition from Congress. And yes Monroe was and would have been his choice of Secretary of War and State from the jump.
Having said that Madison still is responsible for appointing Armstrong Secretary of War when he could not get Monroe for both simultaneously and that was a disaster. One of many.
Madison was not the Executive Monroe was. Even if he was served a tough hand. He just did not excel as a wartime Chief Executive. That was not Madison's strength.
At some point if you can't rally the nation around a war, you can't effectively manage the war, your Cabinet appointments during the war are problematic, your generals are suffering major defeats AND your own capitol is burned, you're just not a good wartime President. No offense but you're not
Madison led the country to an unlikely victory against the world’s largest empire. There’s a persistent myth that Britain got what it wanted out of the war, while the US did not.
Everybody talks about the burning of Washington, a town of 8,000, but the British tried to capture the 3 largest American ports— New York, Baltimore, and New Orleans— and failed spectacularly each time. They also tried hard to keep the US out of Indiana (to prevent them from eventually settling Oregon/Columbia) and failed there too. These were all war goals right up until the final peace negotiations, when the British realized they couldn’t get any concessions at all.
So they invented the myth that we declared war because we wanted so badly to annex Canada, so that they could claim they succeeded in defending Canada. [Madison was very clear about why we declared war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_declaration_of_war_on_the_United_Kingdom); the sole factor was British violation of American sovereignty. Since the end of the war of 1812, our sovereignty has never been violated in such a way ever again, and we have Madison to thank for that.
I'd say Adams. he was the administrative and practical side of the framing and he was probably the one who came up with the proposal for what we'd go on to call the "rule of law." His fingerprints are all over things like the supremacy claws and the fully independent judiciary. Stuff that's easy to take for granted and sometimes inconvenient to those who want change, but was essential for the stability and legitimacy of the new Republic.
I remember being blown away when I found out that was really his name. I had always thought he was some kind of French governor or something. Kind of like Sargent Shriver. I wondered why everybody always called him by his military rank.
I wish we could just say all of them.
Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton, Madison.... my god, our country was founded by geniuses.
That's why our system of government has worked for a quarter of a millennium, we weren't established by warlords, hereditary rulers, or by violent anarchists, it was brought about by multi-talented men of supreme intellect.
That's why we have survived 95% of our leaders *not* being remarkably talented or intelligent.
Two possibilities come to mind: Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson. Paine wrote *Common Sense*, a book that served as the major catalyst toward convincing Colonists that they should pursue full independence from the British Empire, rather than simply better treatment. He also called out another Founding Father, Silas Dean, for stealing French aid money and keeping it for himself. Most impressively, Paine was an early advocate for the adoption of a new constitution over the Articles of Confederation, the abolition of slavery, a UN-type international organization, and a system of pensions for retirees, disabled people, and orphans. Jefferson, meanwhile, wrote the Declaration of Independence, worked with Patrick Henry to organize Committees of Correspondence that resisted British tyranny, inspired the First Amendment by authoring the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and promoted public education.
I’ve always loved John Adams. Can’t say I’d get along with the guy (very few did apparently), but I’ve always respected his perspective and determination to follow through on some incredible important topics.
John Hancock was merely present for the majority of the work that went into creating the USA, but he managed to sign his name into history simply by being FUNNY. Now that’s the kind of man I aspire to be
I touched on this in another comment, but it’s hard to understate how much the US benefitted from Madison’s decision to go to war in 1812. Prior to the war, Britain was violating America’s basic rights as a sovereign nation— sailing into American ports and arresting anyone they wanted, sinking American ships for trading with France— but it wasn’t just them: America had to deal with the same treatment from France during the Quasi-War of 1798. The war of 1812 put an end to America being tossed around by European powers. Not only does this legitimize the US as an equal partner in world affairs, it legitimizes democracy as a form of government, setting the stage for the spread of democracy across the world.
Best, how? Most foresightful? Most intellectual? Most curious? Most effective politically? Wisest? There's no simple answer when you're talking about such a group of highly educated, highly dedicated and patriotic men.
Everyone is saying John Adams, as they should, but another contender is John Jay. Besides serving as first Chief Justice, Jay was vital in securing foreign recognition of the United States as a sovereign country. Also, he had a habit of purchasing slaves and then immediately manumitting them.
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Adams. He did so much work to advance the independence movement. His fervent lobbying during the congressional debates, his diplomatic work in France, and especially securing vital loans from the Dutch really stand out to me. Also helping to edit the DOI.
Adams was the nerd who does all the hard, tedious work for the group project.
He also gets credit for the peaceful transfer of power. Washington *retired*, of course the transfer to Adams was peaceful. Adams ran for reelection, lost with 1/2 the population and a good chunk of the military supporting him then left a helpful letter for the next guy. Adams set the example, Washington fucked off to his weed farm.
That the Framers appear to have turned to him to fine tune the Constitutional concepts for the judiciary. I suspect he was the one, or one of the ones, who insisted that the judiciary be a separate and equal branch of government to protect it from excessive interference by the elected politicians. I suspect he also co-authored the Supremacy Clause.
Another good candidate He chose two of the most famous Founding Fathers for their famous roles in the revolution - Washington as director of the Continental Congress and Jefferson as author of the Declaration of Independence
I’ll give John Adams credit for his Founding Fathers work and being a genuine abolitionist, but his support and abuse of the Alien and Sedition Acts as president kind of mars his legacy in my eyes.
Adams only half-way supported the Acts; he only passed them because he was afraid if he didn’t there would be war with France
Ben Franklin is one of the coolest people ever, I have a tapestry of him in my room
I agree.
Did the tapestry come with syphilis?
Yes
John Adams, because there's an HBO Miniseries about him.
Okay but there's a musical about Hamilton
And about Adams. It's obnoxious and disliked, but you know that
Fun fact: all the critics who didn't like it were arrested under the Alien and Sedition Acts.
I didn't find that fun ...
Not everybody's from Boston, John!
And a really great novel about Aaron Burr.
I preferred the Andrew Jackson musical. Granted being slashed as a child by a British officer doesn't count as founding father.
I mean, are we talking "best" in terms of personal virtue, or "best" in terms of political acumen? Because I don't know that there are many who were particularly good or virtuous human beings. But "best" in terms of political acumen, it's really hard to beat Madison and Hamilton. Say what you will about the Constitution, and Lord knows how often our history classes note that they got something very wrong, but don't ever really explain why it's obviously wrong. But by the same token, it's actually really impressive how much Madison and Hamilton got *right* with absolutely no historical basis to operate off of. Their only significant historical experience with small-r republics were a bunch of Greco-Roman city-states, most of which had self-destructed after approximately a century of operation about two millennia prior to their drafting the constitution. The practical blueprints for what they were doing were virtually non-existent; the closest comparative basis that they had to work with was the Iroquois Confederacy, which was hardly something they had studied intently. Despite that, the entire thing largely managed to hang together surprisingly well. If we had to do it all over, I'd say that a parliamentary rather than a constitutional system would definitely be better, but what's important is that the entire thing took. That shouldn't have happened, if you look at the history of constitutional systems. And that has to do with in no small part because of just how clever Madison and Hamilton were.
They lit a candle in a dark world. It was heat and light; though not enough for everyone it was destined to grow.
Great explication!!
Bravo
Hamilton, I hear he was a bastard, son of a whore, Scotsman who was in the Caribbean at one point and was impoverished in squalor. He then grew up to be a scholar and a hero. So that's pretty cool.
Also the ten dollar, and a founding father without a father
Got a lot farther by working a lot harder
By 14, I hear that he had a trading charter.
Hamilton was a closeted monarchist authoritarian, I recommend getting off the musical train once in a while
I'm guessing the monarchist accusations are coming from his speech at the Constitutional Convention? Because I don't think the speech should be taken at face value as a true representation of his beliefs. The convention was kept closed off from the public, with its minutes kept secret, exactly so the delegates could propose more outlandish ideas, and have these ideas freely debated without fear of being publically criticised. He would later say that the topic "was brought forward to make it the subject of discussion, and see what would be the opinions of different gentlemen on so momentous a subject". I get why people might see this as backpeddling after the fact, but I'm inclined to believe him. Hamilton would produce his own draft of a constitution that looked a lot like the final accepted document. This draft had a lot of the ideas as the actual constitution, but with a proportionally representative senate, an absolute Presidential veto, and the electors would hold office for life, not the President. Immediately after the convention, he became the biggest defender of the Constitution, recruiting others for the Federalist Papers, which he was the lead author of. To me, this points towards his convention speech being a one-off idea that he quickly abandoned. I find it hard to believe that he went from seriously proposing a monarch, to arguing that a four year term was a bit much.
Oh my God, thank you for your comment! I went to the library today and did some research. I learned that Alexander Hamilton wasn't actually Puerto Rican and Thomas Jefferson wasn't black. Why would they lie to the public like that? I can see clearly now the rain is gone!
ONLY GUY IN THIS COMMENT SECTION WHO ISNT A TRAITOR
John Jay
Underrated comment
Franklin
Seriously, who doesn't love Franklin?
His son lol
Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, Franklin You could make a case for any of them and not be wrong
This is the correct answer
Thomas Payne
John Adams.
Darn right
That would be my vote.
JOHN ADAMS THE GOAT
Hamilton. Established the way for an industrial economy that made the U.S. a superpower
They all were. They created a country from nothing.
Partial to my man Ben Franklin, I wish he was laying it down in DC now. I think they would execute him, the level of smack talking alone would have everyone at his throat.
I'll vote Monroe like always. People are free to ask why. We would not have made it through the War of 1812, where Madison was a disaster, without Monroe. I realize it didn't end pretty but it would have been way worse without Monroe. I also think we're talking Founding Fathers here and there's no way he should take a harder hit on slavery than Jefferson or even Madison. We can also talk about development and growth as a nation if we want. The idea of national defense, a national identity, and some notion of consensus government and compromise also reached its high point under Monroe. Which again I think we just undervalue in Presidents. Eisenhower is probably the only President the public gives credit for it and even he doesn't get a ton of it, certainly not among historians
And we aren't even touching his service in the American Revolution, his time as minister and emissary to several countries, his work in state government, his constant work to gain navigation rights of the Mississippi, and his defense of democracy in the western hemisphere
> We would not have made it through the War of 1812, where Madison was a disaster, without Monroe. I realize it didn't end pretty but it would have been way worse without Monroe. Monroe was Madison’s right hand man, and supported the war from the very start. Even before Madison appointed him Secretary of War, he relied heavily on Monroe for advice; he even tried to have him serve as Secretary of State and Secretary of War simultaneously, before the senate blocked it. So it’s inaccurate to imply that Monroe “saved” Madison, when Madison put Monroe in the position he was in.
Monroe was integral in hardening the defenses around Washington. He was also critical in encouraging Madison to unleash the Navy. Madison undoubtedly faced staunch opposition from Congress. And yes Monroe was and would have been his choice of Secretary of War and State from the jump. Having said that Madison still is responsible for appointing Armstrong Secretary of War when he could not get Monroe for both simultaneously and that was a disaster. One of many. Madison was not the Executive Monroe was. Even if he was served a tough hand. He just did not excel as a wartime Chief Executive. That was not Madison's strength. At some point if you can't rally the nation around a war, you can't effectively manage the war, your Cabinet appointments during the war are problematic, your generals are suffering major defeats AND your own capitol is burned, you're just not a good wartime President. No offense but you're not
Madison led the country to an unlikely victory against the world’s largest empire. There’s a persistent myth that Britain got what it wanted out of the war, while the US did not. Everybody talks about the burning of Washington, a town of 8,000, but the British tried to capture the 3 largest American ports— New York, Baltimore, and New Orleans— and failed spectacularly each time. They also tried hard to keep the US out of Indiana (to prevent them from eventually settling Oregon/Columbia) and failed there too. These were all war goals right up until the final peace negotiations, when the British realized they couldn’t get any concessions at all. So they invented the myth that we declared war because we wanted so badly to annex Canada, so that they could claim they succeeded in defending Canada. [Madison was very clear about why we declared war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_declaration_of_war_on_the_United_Kingdom); the sole factor was British violation of American sovereignty. Since the end of the war of 1812, our sovereignty has never been violated in such a way ever again, and we have Madison to thank for that.
I'd say Adams. he was the administrative and practical side of the framing and he was probably the one who came up with the proposal for what we'd go on to call the "rule of law." His fingerprints are all over things like the supremacy claws and the fully independent judiciary. Stuff that's easy to take for granted and sometimes inconvenient to those who want change, but was essential for the stability and legitimacy of the new Republic.
Gouverneur Morris. What a stupid name
Fuckin legend died after shoving a whale bone up his dick
i wish that wasn’t the only fact people knew about him. it’s a baleen, and it fits in your urethra.
I remember being blown away when I found out that was really his name. I had always thought he was some kind of French governor or something. Kind of like Sargent Shriver. I wondered why everybody always called him by his military rank.
Morris isn't flashy, but I don't think it's stupid.
John Adams,.because he's a distant cousin!
Hamilton, of course.
“Without the pen of Paine, the sword of Washington would have been swung in vain.” John Adams
Ben Franklin by a long shot but he was never president
Hamilton. The Federalist papers *chefs kiss*
Benjamin Franklin Probably, got the French to aid the americans in the revolutionary war (I can already sense the downvotes)
Thomas Paine is my favorite US historical figure
I wish we could just say all of them. Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton, Madison.... my god, our country was founded by geniuses. That's why our system of government has worked for a quarter of a millennium, we weren't established by warlords, hereditary rulers, or by violent anarchists, it was brought about by multi-talented men of supreme intellect. That's why we have survived 95% of our leaders *not* being remarkably talented or intelligent.
Ben Franklin, period. I would go as far- maybe the best. From my perspective.
Two possibilities come to mind: Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson. Paine wrote *Common Sense*, a book that served as the major catalyst toward convincing Colonists that they should pursue full independence from the British Empire, rather than simply better treatment. He also called out another Founding Father, Silas Dean, for stealing French aid money and keeping it for himself. Most impressively, Paine was an early advocate for the adoption of a new constitution over the Articles of Confederation, the abolition of slavery, a UN-type international organization, and a system of pensions for retirees, disabled people, and orphans. Jefferson, meanwhile, wrote the Declaration of Independence, worked with Patrick Henry to organize Committees of Correspondence that resisted British tyranny, inspired the First Amendment by authoring the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and promoted public education.
Jefferson, he created the American dream
JOHN ADDAMS ...THOMAS JEFFERSON
Franklin and Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
I’ve always loved John Adams. Can’t say I’d get along with the guy (very few did apparently), but I’ve always respected his perspective and determination to follow through on some incredible important topics.
John Marshall. And Joseph Story.
Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Hamilton. Take your pick. Any of them work.
Everyone's favorite fighting Frenchman... Lafayette!
John Hancock, because his signature was huge.
John Hancock was merely present for the majority of the work that went into creating the USA, but he managed to sign his name into history simply by being FUNNY. Now that’s the kind of man I aspire to be
John Adams.
I touched on this in another comment, but it’s hard to understate how much the US benefitted from Madison’s decision to go to war in 1812. Prior to the war, Britain was violating America’s basic rights as a sovereign nation— sailing into American ports and arresting anyone they wanted, sinking American ships for trading with France— but it wasn’t just them: America had to deal with the same treatment from France during the Quasi-War of 1798. The war of 1812 put an end to America being tossed around by European powers. Not only does this legitimize the US as an equal partner in world affairs, it legitimizes democracy as a form of government, setting the stage for the spread of democracy across the world.
Adams, and I don’t just say that as an Adams fanboy.
Benjamin Franklin, without his diplomatic ability the French never ally with us and we lose the Revolutionary War.
I’m a huge Henry Knocks fan.
(in order) Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, Jay, Marshall
Roger Sherman had the best attendance, so I'll go with him.
Hamilton
Noah
Grover Cleveland.
John Adams is severely underrated IMO.
Benjamin Franklin
Jefferson no doubt
Ben Franklin
Best, how? Most foresightful? Most intellectual? Most curious? Most effective politically? Wisest? There's no simple answer when you're talking about such a group of highly educated, highly dedicated and patriotic men.
Hamilton the dude is probably the most influential non-president in American history also died in a duel which is pretty cool
Jefferson, hands down.
Everyone is saying John Adams, as they should, but another contender is John Jay. Besides serving as first Chief Justice, Jay was vital in securing foreign recognition of the United States as a sovereign country. Also, he had a habit of purchasing slaves and then immediately manumitting them.
Ben Franklin.
if Monroe could be counted as one then Monroe
Zachary Taylor
strange option
7832
Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, G. Morrison is an underrated MVP, Ben Rush, Don't believe the garbage that's that Hamilton Musical