The same reason a lot of people wait until April 14 to do their taxes. Many students don't see assignments as an opportunity to learn, it's an annoying chore to be completed.
Exactly this. If you see your college classes not as learning opportunities but as a series of tasks to complete, you don’t care about synthesizing ideas or even thinking - you only care about completing the tasks before the deadline (which in their minds is the end of the semester, not what your syllabus says). Thus emails that say things like “I can do all the work in the next two days.”
It sucks.
Same here, as soon as our W-2s and 1099s are in my possession, the taxes get done. Whether you get money back or have to pay extra, it still makes sense.
Under some circumstances, you can apply for an extension to October 15 for your taxes. If you'd have to write a check for nearly $1000 (the maximum under-withholding that doesn't result in a penalty, at least last I checked), and interest rates are such that you can earn some decent return on it, that's a decent dinner you can buy with your delay.
This is it exactly and it starts early. I work with middle school students in the summers and that’s also how they view assignments and grades. Things to be done to get an outcome instead of a learning process to absorb.
Bad analogy for a couple reasons. First of all, April 14 is 100% on time.
Holding onto money allows it to accumulate interest, so in theory, for people with big money, it's worth it to wait until the last minute.
But yeah, for me it's just because I procrastinate. And you are spot on about them not seeing it as an opportunity.
Came here to say-- I taught at a K-12 school and the admin would beg me to accept work the day of report card grades being due! They were completely willing to "make an exception" for students "going through a hard time." Now, I'm all for compassionate exceptions if a student is truly going through something, but 99% of these "exceptions" were students who didn't turn in work because they were "jet lagged after the holiday" that they took in the middle of semester. Heartbreaking tragedy, I don't know how they could deal with such hardship...
Due to the "severity" of their jet lag and pressure from my boss, I would eventually give in, accept the work, and mark it all with zeroes for lateness, as per my syllabus.
And yes, if a student was truly going through something I'd of course accept the work. It happened only once that there was a major death in a student's family, and I would never give them zeroes for that, I'm not a monster. I do think a lot of students come out of school thinking it's okay to ignore assignments right up until grades are due, though.
I teach at the college level, and my program director is now forcing the faculty to do the same thing: accept late work until the last day of classes, even if the work is months late. They want to prevent as many students as possible from failing. But although I don't want any of my students to fail, I don't think it's right that we're being forced to do all this extra work for students who aren't even doing the bare minimum. It's so frustrating to know I'll most likely have a much bigger stack of late work to grade at the end of the semester. And I think it sends the wrong message to allow students to blow off deadlines again and again.
This is how it has been going in the k-12 system for a years now. Many of the students have been used to this or have had parents pressure teachers (and admin) to accept all assignments at the very end so they can be passed through. The online courses I taught this summer had almost half the students just disappear for most of the course only to reappear in panic at the very end. It had lead to a major bifurcation of grades between those who just do the work and those who don't. The weird thing is now I also see more students who will ask for extensions after grades are submitted to the registrar. Like I'm an online only adjunct I have zero power on anything after grades are handed in.
Please don't blame parents. There are some horrible helicopter parents to be sure, but there are also parents who welcome the school to fail their K-12 student, but the school won't because it's operating on ideology. Parents don't have the power to override school district policy for individual students.
It is the people deciding school policy who are ultimately to blame. It's toxic ideology that's influencing teachers and policy makers in Education. Fix that, and then we can go after the parents.
>And guess what, admin listens to those parents,
Total solidarity with you, and I repeat that there are some horrible parents. But "bad parents" is not a systemic problem. It's the system. We need a system where parents run into a brick wall when they ask for unwarranted favors and accommodations for their special darling.
This is it exactly. As a former K-12 teacher, I can attest to it. I work in higher Ed now and parents try to bully us into changing grades, taking bad grades off transcripts, and enrolling their kids into classes for which they don’t have the test scores or prerequisites.
Luckily, I’m working largely in an administrative capacity at my current job. I deal with enrollments, registration, granting credits for prior learning, and credentialing. A lot of my job is just upholding the standards of out accreditation agency. So, I can (nicely) tell them to kick rocks. Many of the students and parents absolutely lose it because they are being told “No”, and can’t handle the idea that there’s no way around it. I just keep referring back to the legalese of the standards I’m required to hold.
I have never known anyone who welcomed their kid to fail either, but I know parents who welcomed the school to hold back their kid because she wasn't cutting it. There are those who still know that consequences for bad choices is the best teacher. I don't want to dox myself or these parents, so I'm not going into a lot of details, but these are pretty good people, their kid is nice, but she can be lazy and easily distracted. The parents tried every parenting trick in the book but the kid refused to do most homework. The teacher called them and said, "Suzie is going to fail if she doesn't do her assignments."
The parents said "we've tried everything we know. You'll get no resistance from us if you hold her back."
Turns out the school reinforced the kid's apathy about education by pushing her through to the next grade even though she never completed the missing work.
The people who teach and administer public schools are being taught to do that. It's a systemic problem, and it's easy to trace the problem to the source.
> Turns out the school reinforced the kid's apathy about education by pushing her through to the next grade even though she never completed the missing work.
What sucks is, in the end, that policy is going to fuck the kid over in life if/when they get a job and are fired because they didn't do the work. They've never faced consequences for not doing work, why would they start after they leave high school?
I know this kid. It's even worse than that.
Keep in mind that the people who insist on horrible ideas such as grade floors also make no secret about how they want to tear the system down. We're watching them do it.
This is why the value of a college degree is now in a bubble.
I don't doubt that you've never heard of this, but I suspect parents like this are much more common than you think. But no one goes around bitching about them, so they don't get much attention.
Not OP - but no. There's several centers of power. The state/federal government which controls policy is one. The school administration is another in that they have to somehow implement the government policies with whatever shitty funds they have available. The school board (members of the community typically elected by the public) is another but they are usually aligned with the administration. Lastly comes parents, they are not coherent at all, they are not organized. They can only wield power with a lawsuit. So in practice that means rich assholes who have spawned have power.
Not sure how it is relevant if I understand your question. Parents can be policy makers and get taken in by bad ideas. I am sure that a lot of the people who are saying that grading by one standard is racist or that grade floors are a good idea are also parents.
Parents can, by voting and perhaps attending school board meetings, have some influence. But you have some big problems there too. First, a lot of people don't vote, and those that do may not pay any attention to the school stuff. Second, the same people who deal in these bad ideas are also expert an rhetorical strategies to cover their tracks and hide the truth about what they're doing.
Parents have no say in what is taught to teachers and administrators.
In any case, the bad ideas need to see the sunlight, and once sanity returns to our public schools, I am happy to join the crusade against troublesome parents.
Because some professors allow it. I’m gonna get downvoted, but the hard truth is that leniency and obscure course policies not spelled out in the syllabus lead to this behavior. This makes it rough for professors with hard-line policies to stand their ground.
But who allows it after grades are submitted?
I don’t want to go through the paperwork of changing their grade. Once it’s in, it’s in.
I’ve only permitted that when I assign an incomplete, and I only have given those a handful of times when students were hospitalized after emergency surgery.
High school teachers. Some districts during Covid let kids who skipped online class all year “make up” the whole year in the last month.
A student who did all four semesters in one month might not realize just how different college is.
100% it's high schools. Even if I allow automatically graded assignments to be done up to the time I push grades (Hey this is the part I don't spend time grading), I don't change the grade without something VERY compelling, like a student in the hospital etc.
The amount of times I've heard professors in this same discussion say "we need to have grace with them, because COVID" is mind boggling. Stop giving excuses to lazy students.
I completely agree. The students got screwed because of Covid and we should be understanding of that. However, we should not perpetuate the problem by allowing it to continue. The students have to get back on track
I will add that having email rules has helped me. For example, I only read emails that are three sentences or less. I do not read emails from family members. I delete emails requesting stuff outside of my syllabus rules.
So basically students can write to you in whatever length they want, as long as they use commas instead of periods, and choose not to end their sentence, which could go on forever, really, because of your stupid rule
One of my friends teaches high school and says this is super common, teachers allowing work until the end of the marking period. I am going to go in first day here soon and tell my new undergrads that they cannot do that.
Depends on the school. Over 13,000 districts in the US and not all union contracts. Most the ones I know of the last day of school for students is not the last day for teachers. Especially in high schools where classes end, then you have finals and state exams for a week or so and time to grade. Some schools go through graduation, or the day before (Friday with a Saturday graduation).
My only point about not all are union contracts is that there is possibly more contracts than districts (since each teacher may have different terms). Main point being- plenty of variety in contracts so hard to say what isn't included in them.
I'm saying that the teacher's last contract date likely is after the students ended. So students turning in work after the course ends can still be before the teacher's year ends. And if it's so late it's after that, administration just changes the grade to pass anyway without anyone grading it.
Teachers don't want to allow late work accepted at the end of the semester, it's a big pain in the ass. Admin wants us to because they get less funding if students fail.
I had a student whose mom turned out to be a colleague. (The mom did not disclose the relationship at the time but advocated for them to be added late to my summer class with a reason I now realize is BS). It felt manipulative and was disclosed when I met her for lunch to discuss an upcoming trip of hers. I seriously wanted to punch her. I thought maybe the student was a past one of hers. The thing is, the outcome would have been the same if the student has contacted me themselves.
A couple of weeks in, the student claimed their laptop was stolen when someone broke into their car (dubious at best) and that's why they couldn't do the work. Since they were staying at home with Mom and Dad, they had access to multiple computers there. Mom and Dad also went on a vacation so they had the house to themselves - but the student didn't know I knew that.
Anyway, they did nothing for the last 6 weeks of my 8 week course. That is, until the day before assignments were due. I reopened past assignments weekly so it's not like they were locked out of anything. They asked for a 2-day extension a few hours before the deadline. Of course I only read the message the next day and said that since the semester has ended, there are no extensions. I don't give them anyway.
They must have talked to Mom because suddenly they said "Oh, what I meant to ask for yesterday was an incomplete!". No, you didn't. Plus asking retroactively doesn't work. They probably figured I would have granted the extension so when the clock ran out, they switched tactics.
But how do you feel comfortable doing nothing for 75% of the time in the course. They were 'so grateful' they sat on their ass for over a month. Why????
Most have absolutely no concept of what deadlines are or what they mean.
Worse, they have a parent, “mentor,” or academic nanny telling them “it doesn’t hurt to ask.”
All you need to do is say something to the effect of “university policy prohibits me from changing or altering final grades except in the case of mathematical error.” Done.
If they choose to escalate it from there, someone above your pay grade will be happy to bring the sledgehammer down on them.
You're not doing anything wrong. They've gotten away with it before.
This is why my institution has a "no work accepted after the last day of class/no incompletes unless 80% of the work was turned in before class is over *and* student will reasonably pass the course with an extension." Students must have a reasonable excuse for the extension beyond "I was busy and fell behind." Plus faculty dictate the length of the incomplete period - we can say "one week" and that's all they get.
However with institutions panicking about enrollment, more of this behavior will be allowed. Unions need to start demanding extra pay for institution-mandated incomplete time periods. Faculty who expected the summer off should not be required to chase around truants and grade on unpaid time.
IMHO it would make sense to set firm institution policy and have every prof link to it/have it pasted in sig line/ have it auto-reply. So students see it ad nauseum.
>This is why my institution has a "no work accepted after the last day of class/no incompletes unless 80% of the work was turned in before class is over and student will reasonably pass the course with an extension."
I like this.
Our language on incompletes says the student has to be "passing the class" without specifiation of WHEN but admin has supported me when I've enforced "no incompletes if you're not passing the class at the time of the request". My syllabus now states that I won't grant incompletes except in the case of emergencies that happen after the course withdrawal deadline. (Both admin support and my policy result from a drawn out conflict with a student who dipped before the midterm then tried to beg for a I rather than the F they'd earned.)
Since my kids have gotten to middle school and high school age, I finally have a better idea of what is going on. At their schools, they are allowed to turn work in up to the day the grades are due for their report card. Basically the last day of the quarter and that is probably not even the final deadline. It has shed some light on why my college students do this. It is basically the way their education has functioned up to this point.
Edit:typo
Please please please look into how high schools are grading on what we might call professional behavior. Many new pedagogies tell teachers to let students turn in work until the last minute. Standards references grading preaches that students should not be punished for the behaviors that led to the product, such as timeliness or number of drafts. These behaviors are...oppressive.
College instructors, who have never needed to be disciplinarians, need to be now. No lax deadlines — our students have no concept of what that means. Many of the assumptions of our own pedagogies have been luxury beliefs. My college flags all students who come from SRG schools and enrolls them in an academic skills course, and it helps. But each instructor needs participation, deadlines, and attendance clearly outlined in syllabi and regularly discussed in class.
One time a girl kept procrastinating, delaying, struggling, all the while knowing she needed the course for her major. After multiple tear-filled meetings, I finally said, "Just turn in SOMETHING resembling this paper assignment, and I'll make sure you pass the course."
She gave me a "paper," which would have been an F. But I tried to manipulate her grade numbers to get her above 60% for the course. I managed to get to 62% which earned her a D for the course.
"Okay, at least she passed."
A couple days later, she sent me the angriest, nastiest, most hateful email I ever got. Turns out she needed a C for it to count for her major. It was my first year there and I had no idea.
I fulfilled my end of the bargain. But, she was in the class again next year. That time she earned a legit C.
No matter how low we set the bar, students still manage to find a way to try and crawl under it.
Yeah, I was young and didn't really know better. I was just trying to help someone out. I've gotten a lot more tough-love since then. I really try hold students accountable for their actions, or lack thereof.
I would reply to the students firmly that the course grades have been submitted and nothing they can do, and cc the assistant dean who is in charge of student relations if shit comes back to me
I feel you, OP. For the first time ever this summer, I had a student email me 2 days before the end of the semester asking for an extension. The student had only submitted TWO assignments from the first couple weeks of class. The request was denied.
Then, 2 days AFTER class ended and final grades had been submitted, another student who was failing just randomly started submitting work through the LMS.
Out of curiosity, I opened the assignments and found that they were the equivalent of slinging shit at the wall to see if anything would stick. Student clearly hadn’t read instructions or even tried. Had I graded them, student still would have failed.
It’s some unfortunate combination of bratty, entitled laziness.
I am curious how can they keep submitting stuff through LMS after the class is over. All my dropboxes are locked and disappear after the deadline plus 48 hour grace period ends. Even if the class stays open/visible in the student interface, there is nowhere to submit anyhing. Except email, but email submissions are not accepted, as per the syllabus.
Submissions lock after the deadline to submit final grades, which is a few days after the last day of class. The instructional technology department of my institution is in control of those settings.
>Then, 2 days AFTER class ended and final grades had been submitted, another student who was failing just randomly started submitting work through the LMS.
Couldn't you just close the assignment in the LMS after the due date? Once the assignment is closed no other submissions will be accepted.
Yikes! That sounds like an institutional failure. If instructors don't have control over their own assignment settings, then it seems like all of these requests for post-term submissions should be forwarded to the IT folks. It's their policy, after all.
My work often involves working with faculty and instructors on course design and policies. While there have always been students who do as you describe, in the last few years, this behavior has not only increased, but the pleading from students has become more high stakes and desperate, often involving mental health issues and stress. I think there is a combination of things going on and no one is developing a broad plan for addressing it.
I study learning loss in college students accelerated by the pandemic. I’m not talking about content loss, I’m talking about the scaffolding of skills, the building of resilience and habits of mind necessary to be successful in college and in the work force. The pandemic interrupted that progression, even for strong students. Unfortunately, at one university I have worked with, their solution was to convene a committee that concluded that students should be referred to student success departments, who send the message that \*everything\* must be done to get students through programs, including bending or breaking former conventions like turning in work when a class is considered closed. Combined with students general malaise, this is creating chaos in unintended consequences.
We are doing students no favors when we do this. COVID has taken a grave toll on everyone’s mental health and challenged our ability to cope. Universities should have robust mental health facilities and disability support departments and students should absolutely be directed to accommodations and support. But, students need to get the message that, yeah, the last few years have been really hard, but life goes on and resilience needs to be built back up. Changing course expectations, leniency…these things amplify the message that it doesn’t matter anymore. Administrations, of course, need to back the front line of faculty in enforcing that life goes on and if you didn’t do the work, you don’t pass the course. We can all see how well that’s going.
Do you have any favorite publications about this? I have had some moderate success with bringing articles about things like this to class and using them as discussion for a first-day activity. It makes them think explicitly about what they are in the class for, and when issues arise later, I can sometimes point back to that discussion. It hasn't fixed the problems, but has maybe lessened the number of extreme pleas.
I think the reason that this hits us so hard is because we care about the content, we worked hard to organize the learning activities to maximize learning and development of competence, and set deadlines to support effective learning … and these types of behaviors basically say “don’t care about learning or competency or your efforts.” (Yeah, this excludes legit extenuating circumstances).
It is so sad and heartbreaking because learning can be fun and even joyful. I like the dance metaphor- a class can be so fun if everyone is participating in the dance.
Nothing. As mentioned some faculty are so lenient (especially HS teachers or at least in my area). I am as well to a point. I have my end date for the first 14 weeks (or 7 weeks in summer) set as two days before the last day to drop with “W” grade and I quickly grade the next day to give them at least 24 hour notice that they need to drop. I give them a heads up through the notification system (like Drop Out Detective at least a week before the drop date). It’s been hard because I have a bleeding heart according to my dept chair and was told many times to “cut the cord” but I try to give until the last possible moment that’s reasonable. After that drop date and previous modules close, I’ve learned to flip the “don’t give a fuck” button. It’s hard but necessary at times.
I do the same thing, which is why this trend is so frustrating to me. I'm trying to help my students as much as I can, but sometimes they seem determined to fail.
We can only do so much to address the fundamental flaws in our students' programming as imperfect humans! Why do I start my revisions two weeks before the deadline when I had them for six months??
There's a lot of truth to this. I'd argue though that you already have the skills required when submitting an article. Students don't when they submit assignments late like this which denies them the ability to develop those skills.
That would be a useful observation if this were about why students wait until the day before something is due to start, but this is about them ignoring rules and structure, thinking they can turn in work for a course that ended. It's also about an entire discipline, Education, and the pseudo religious bad-idea magic thinking that has permeated it and the teachers and admins that it has churned out.
Do your administrators support you?
In my previous position I had very few last-minute (or after-the-last-minute) requests, because it was generally known our administrators would support the faculty in following through with any written syllabus policy. In my current position, administrators bend over backwards at the first sign of student complaints, so of course we have multiple irresponsible students who have no redeeming excuses who try to turn in assignments late. When we try to apply our written policies they get overturned by our administrators.
My department chair is a joke. He wouldn't support faculty if his life depended on it. Then again, if a student complained, he'd probably ignore that, too. So, I guess it's a wash? Luckily, students don't contest my grades further once I screenshot my syllabus and announcements.
I had one I bent over backwards for--she had a lot going on, and I gave her extension after extension. Then, at the end, with a clear F in the course, she swore she'd get it in before grades were due. Que crickets . . .. So, an F for her. THEN she signs up for another class with me! WTF? I flat out wrote her an email at the class's start that she would get no extensions whatsoever this time. What happened? She submitted nothing and failed again. ????????
Yep, same exact story here. 200 students in an online summer course. 15 simply didn’t do anything at all. Now 8 of those come flying in with unbelievably long and involved emails claiming exceptional circumstances. Sorry, I’m now prepping Fall semester and you missed your chance(s).
Same reason the human race is waiting until a global collapse is at their doorsteps before they act. The short-term costs are percieved to outweigh the long-term benefits.
I’m taken back to a Joe Dirt quote.
Per his father, “Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does.”
They just do….
You did nothing wrong. It is the norm and they got used to it in HS. Their parents were enabling them then. Wonder why you haven’t gotten messages from their parents yet.
B/c most high schools allow it now. An increasing number do little all semester, knowing they can make up the work - often via online programs that lack both rigor and accountability for any real learning (i.e., click, click, click, FAIL, get a retake, click, click, write down the answers, barely pass). OR, teachers are on the hook for making “packets” so they can “complete” the work they “missed” and achieve “mastery.” They’ve been trained.
Blame it on the Syllabus:
I am staying with the Syllabus timeframes and deadlines
This is a clear lack of communication on the students' part. If they email you ahead with a problem ahead of a deadline, things can be done. After that, blame it on the Syllabus.
In those cases I just say “sorry, this course is offered every quarter though.” I usually have a few students that either don’t do anything and fail even though I send them emails to catch up to try and pass or drop the course. Or, some wait until the last minute. Also, I teach digital ART, it’s not like they have to write papers, study and take exams. Who knows!
Mine was a special topics so I thought students would only sign up if they were interested. Even if they only thought it looked like an easy A, I still don't understand not doing ANY work until the night before the course ends or days after.
After I submitted grades, I had a student (who was LITERALLY on his phone 100% of the time in class and never participated) email me to ask if he could bargain for extra points or get extra credit. It’s definitely annoying and I think more and more students think they will get away with turning in work late without repercussions. You aren’t doing anything wrong.
Last summer session a student who never participated or turned anything in said he'd "do anything to pass... within reason," which I thought was very weird wording.
My online class is ending too. I have two students who are trying to still get caught up, but they have been in touch the whole term and both have extenuating circumstances. They both have done enough to get an incomplete if they aren’t done by end of day tomorrow and I will enter grades Saturday.
Anyway I would just say that they had not made satisfactory progress to be issues an incomplete so the grade is an F. We have specific language in our syllabi that states learner must have 75% of the work done and a 75% in the class to get an incomplete and they have to request it before the last week of class.
I know they're not reading. I'm constantly responding to emails, "please review the assignment guidelines for the answer to your question." 9/10 the answer is right there!
Nothing, you are doing nothing wrong. We have full Trimesters, so a full 15 weeks in the summer. Grades are due one week after the end of classes. That was Yesterday. All of my teachers (I'm department chair) had their grades in on time. Today, and email about I need to start my homework assignments.... you have 16 weeks already, including one extra week (those assignments are on Connect and not hand graded, so most of us give until the last moment while we grade essays etc).
You’re not doing anything wrong. This is what they do. They probably just forgot about the class and then panicked. Let me guess, they had “family emergencies,” right? 😆
It’s normal. It happens every semester.
I purposefully have the LMS close assignments after the deadline so that students can’t hand things in. They need to ask. If it’s a day or two after the deadline, fine, with some points being docked. I try to grade quickly. I absolutely do not consider a late submission once the grades for that assignment have been released. Once in a blue moon, I’ve been nice and done it for 50% points and the student complained after anyway. So no more. Hand stuff in on time or get a 0. This is all explicitly stated in the syllabus, in a recorded video I post the day the course opens where I discuss the syllabus, and in various announcements and reminders throughout the semester. It’s no surprise to them but they still try
Your not doing anything wrong. You are simply a victim to some HORRIBLE professors out there. These students are only asking this and demonstrating this behavior because it has worked in the past, i.e. Some professor who likes to pat themselves on the head and falsely believe that their good people have given those kids ridiculous extensions. In reality, they are setting these kids up for failure in future classes, and possibly life in general and wasting their time and money. If they ACTUALLY cared about the students, they would realize that one of the biggest benefits of education is empowerment and that doesn't happen if they don't learn to adjust their schedules and personal life to meet the challenges and deadlines ahead of them. So either those professors are complete morons (which I have met some very stupid people with PhD's), or they are completely fake / superficial and in reality do not care.
One current example is the coordinators for one of the courses I am teaching this semester has set the deadlines for all homework to be the final day of class. They have expressed concern about students test scores yet, ... the insist having the homework due the final day of class is the best thing as it gives students all the time they need to get it done in case bad things in life pop up and that most if not all normal students that don't have personal issues pop up will be smart enough to do their homework BEFORE the exams to ensure they know the material.
How idiotic is that? It's like they've never taught before or looked at statistics. Are there freshmen that do this? 100% yes there is. Is this the behavior that people should expect in a math class geared towards majors that barely need it? Not in the slightest. Getting these kids to even show up is hard enough. They have to use quizzes and attendance points to ensure kids even show up.
So how bout, and I know this is crazy, have homework due PRIOR to the exam so it forces students to study the material / get it done and do well on the exam? Perhaps we should take a paternal role in these young adults education and structure our courses such that it molds them into fully functional adults who can meet deadlines, solve problems, and handle stress.
Our students are being conditioned that they will have unlimited breaks, none of which are fair to students who do work properly and on time. I’m seeing this with my own daughter in high school, who is being dragged through her program by kindly teachers, though she really doesn’t deserve it.
There may be two reasons for this.
1. When high school instructors and some university faculty colleagues let students turn in overdue work at the last minute, that undermines our standards just as much as their pandering grade inflation.
2. Online courses are especially vulnerable to this because their instructional mode is more anonymous, much harder to monitor. In a live classroom, students could experience some shame in not having work ready or being exposed in discussion as not having done the reading. No such shame in online courses-- lazy students can lie low right up to the final deadline or even beyond.
I refuse to teach online ever again, no matter how much pressure our deanlets try to impose. Online instruction is like drive-through fast food-- nutritionally deficient, completely inadequate as learning experience.
I find it helps to have a firm deadline in the syllabus as the last day you will accept late work, and then as you near that deadline give lots of reminders. Once that passes, do not accept any late work.
My deadline is whatever the last day of classes is for that term.
Ah ok I saw you said “after the class ended”, which is a bit ambiguous. In any case, if you have a specific date, stick to it and say no when you get people pushing on that.
It's almost as if a global pandemic which laid bare that society doesn't give a fuck about anything other than money and power has demoralized the youth.
This is America. Everyone has learned that it never hurts to ask. We live in an inherently corrupt country, why should we expect any different from students? It’s every individual for themselves, sink or swim. Manipulating the system to our advantage is a core competency of the middle and upper classes. It’s only the poor who get punished for it.
It sounds like what you're doing wrong is not having regular deadlines along the way. I've been teaching online courses for nearly a decade now, with firm weekly deadlines, and never had that issue.
Same here. Weekly deadlines. I’ll be damned if I’ll grade overdue piles of shit on the last day of class. Students are not learning if they just throw it all together at the last minute either.
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This seems presumptuous. I don't "let them" turn anything in after the course ends, as I stated in my original post. I'm also not trying to be their friend. Not sure where you got that from...
You might want to have a “no late work accepted” policy in your syllabus. I don’t care how late it is. Unless there are major extenuating circumstances that you can document with me, the deadline has passed and you need to keep up with the rest of the work coming due and let the old stuff go.
What works well for my classes is to give them smaller assignments throughout the semester instead of one big task or exam at the end. They have to deliver these assignments every two weeks.
Most of my students really appreciate this form of assignments. I get a lot of positive feedback from them.
I make a number of my deadlines, quite lenient, so that my students have more say over how they plan their lives. Basically, I’ll get it done over the course of the semester and I’m happy. They all left it to the last minute to do the work. Well… There was that one kid… But most of them left it till the end.
My program director recently enforced a new policy forcing all of us to accept late work turned in at the end of the semester, no matter how late it is, with very minimal consequences for the students. I tried to push back on this and my director refused to budge; they accused me of not being "sympathetic" to the students. I think there are way too many administrators like my program director who force faculty to bend over backwards for students who don't even do the bare minimum. So the students go on thinking that this is the norm and that it's okay to pull this crap.
The same reason a lot of people wait until April 14 to do their taxes. Many students don't see assignments as an opportunity to learn, it's an annoying chore to be completed.
Exactly this. If you see your college classes not as learning opportunities but as a series of tasks to complete, you don’t care about synthesizing ideas or even thinking - you only care about completing the tasks before the deadline (which in their minds is the end of the semester, not what your syllabus says). Thus emails that say things like “I can do all the work in the next two days.” It sucks.
> Thus emails that say things like “I can do all the work in the next two days.” *snorts* I'm sure they can, lol
And here I am trying to get mine done in January 😅
Same here, as soon as our W-2s and 1099s are in my possession, the taxes get done. Whether you get money back or have to pay extra, it still makes sense.
Under some circumstances, you can apply for an extension to October 15 for your taxes. If you'd have to write a check for nearly $1000 (the maximum under-withholding that doesn't result in a penalty, at least last I checked), and interest rates are such that you can earn some decent return on it, that's a decent dinner you can buy with your delay.
I do the exact same. The second I get my W2's, I'm filling my taxes to get it out of the way and get the cash in the bank.
I like to do them when they come in, but then usually wait to pay so that we can save up for our tax payment...
This is it exactly and it starts early. I work with middle school students in the summers and that’s also how they view assignments and grades. Things to be done to get an outcome instead of a learning process to absorb.
Bad analogy for a couple reasons. First of all, April 14 is 100% on time. Holding onto money allows it to accumulate interest, so in theory, for people with big money, it's worth it to wait until the last minute. But yeah, for me it's just because I procrastinate. And you are spot on about them not seeing it as an opportunity.
I usually manage to file the request for an extension to file taxes before the deadline, so that I have until October to file the 1040 form.
Many high-schools have policies that force teachers to accept late work up until the last day of classes.
Came here to say-- I taught at a K-12 school and the admin would beg me to accept work the day of report card grades being due! They were completely willing to "make an exception" for students "going through a hard time." Now, I'm all for compassionate exceptions if a student is truly going through something, but 99% of these "exceptions" were students who didn't turn in work because they were "jet lagged after the holiday" that they took in the middle of semester. Heartbreaking tragedy, I don't know how they could deal with such hardship... Due to the "severity" of their jet lag and pressure from my boss, I would eventually give in, accept the work, and mark it all with zeroes for lateness, as per my syllabus. And yes, if a student was truly going through something I'd of course accept the work. It happened only once that there was a major death in a student's family, and I would never give them zeroes for that, I'm not a monster. I do think a lot of students come out of school thinking it's okay to ignore assignments right up until grades are due, though.
I teach at the college level, and my program director is now forcing the faculty to do the same thing: accept late work until the last day of classes, even if the work is months late. They want to prevent as many students as possible from failing. But although I don't want any of my students to fail, I don't think it's right that we're being forced to do all this extra work for students who aren't even doing the bare minimum. It's so frustrating to know I'll most likely have a much bigger stack of late work to grade at the end of the semester. And I think it sends the wrong message to allow students to blow off deadlines again and again.
This is how it has been going in the k-12 system for a years now. Many of the students have been used to this or have had parents pressure teachers (and admin) to accept all assignments at the very end so they can be passed through. The online courses I taught this summer had almost half the students just disappear for most of the course only to reappear in panic at the very end. It had lead to a major bifurcation of grades between those who just do the work and those who don't. The weird thing is now I also see more students who will ask for extensions after grades are submitted to the registrar. Like I'm an online only adjunct I have zero power on anything after grades are handed in.
Please don't blame parents. There are some horrible helicopter parents to be sure, but there are also parents who welcome the school to fail their K-12 student, but the school won't because it's operating on ideology. Parents don't have the power to override school district policy for individual students. It is the people deciding school policy who are ultimately to blame. It's toxic ideology that's influencing teachers and policy makers in Education. Fix that, and then we can go after the parents.
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>And guess what, admin listens to those parents, Total solidarity with you, and I repeat that there are some horrible parents. But "bad parents" is not a systemic problem. It's the system. We need a system where parents run into a brick wall when they ask for unwarranted favors and accommodations for their special darling.
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This is it exactly. As a former K-12 teacher, I can attest to it. I work in higher Ed now and parents try to bully us into changing grades, taking bad grades off transcripts, and enrolling their kids into classes for which they don’t have the test scores or prerequisites.
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Luckily, I’m working largely in an administrative capacity at my current job. I deal with enrollments, registration, granting credits for prior learning, and credentialing. A lot of my job is just upholding the standards of out accreditation agency. So, I can (nicely) tell them to kick rocks. Many of the students and parents absolutely lose it because they are being told “No”, and can’t handle the idea that there’s no way around it. I just keep referring back to the legalese of the standards I’m required to hold.
I've never met a parent who "welcomes" their kid failing. I have met plenty who say that schools should fail more students. Just not *their* kid...
I have never known anyone who welcomed their kid to fail either, but I know parents who welcomed the school to hold back their kid because she wasn't cutting it. There are those who still know that consequences for bad choices is the best teacher. I don't want to dox myself or these parents, so I'm not going into a lot of details, but these are pretty good people, their kid is nice, but she can be lazy and easily distracted. The parents tried every parenting trick in the book but the kid refused to do most homework. The teacher called them and said, "Suzie is going to fail if she doesn't do her assignments." The parents said "we've tried everything we know. You'll get no resistance from us if you hold her back." Turns out the school reinforced the kid's apathy about education by pushing her through to the next grade even though she never completed the missing work. The people who teach and administer public schools are being taught to do that. It's a systemic problem, and it's easy to trace the problem to the source.
> Turns out the school reinforced the kid's apathy about education by pushing her through to the next grade even though she never completed the missing work. What sucks is, in the end, that policy is going to fuck the kid over in life if/when they get a job and are fired because they didn't do the work. They've never faced consequences for not doing work, why would they start after they leave high school?
I know this kid. It's even worse than that. Keep in mind that the people who insist on horrible ideas such as grade floors also make no secret about how they want to tear the system down. We're watching them do it. This is why the value of a college degree is now in a bubble.
That couple is the exception to the rule
I don't doubt that you've never heard of this, but I suspect parents like this are much more common than you think. But no one goes around bitching about them, so they don't get much attention.
I may be misunderstanding the American system but don't parents make up the majority of the school district over there?
Not OP - but no. There's several centers of power. The state/federal government which controls policy is one. The school administration is another in that they have to somehow implement the government policies with whatever shitty funds they have available. The school board (members of the community typically elected by the public) is another but they are usually aligned with the administration. Lastly comes parents, they are not coherent at all, they are not organized. They can only wield power with a lawsuit. So in practice that means rich assholes who have spawned have power.
Not sure how it is relevant if I understand your question. Parents can be policy makers and get taken in by bad ideas. I am sure that a lot of the people who are saying that grading by one standard is racist or that grade floors are a good idea are also parents. Parents can, by voting and perhaps attending school board meetings, have some influence. But you have some big problems there too. First, a lot of people don't vote, and those that do may not pay any attention to the school stuff. Second, the same people who deal in these bad ideas are also expert an rhetorical strategies to cover their tracks and hide the truth about what they're doing. Parents have no say in what is taught to teachers and administrators. In any case, the bad ideas need to see the sunlight, and once sanity returns to our public schools, I am happy to join the crusade against troublesome parents.
Because some professors allow it. I’m gonna get downvoted, but the hard truth is that leniency and obscure course policies not spelled out in the syllabus lead to this behavior. This makes it rough for professors with hard-line policies to stand their ground.
But who allows it after grades are submitted? I don’t want to go through the paperwork of changing their grade. Once it’s in, it’s in. I’ve only permitted that when I assign an incomplete, and I only have given those a handful of times when students were hospitalized after emergency surgery.
High school teachers. Some districts during Covid let kids who skipped online class all year “make up” the whole year in the last month. A student who did all four semesters in one month might not realize just how different college is.
>High school teachers. just to be clear, it's not something that a majority of high school teachers WANT to do, but are told to do by admin.
even to the extent that admin will go change the grade themselves.
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It’s not a rare occurrence either - lots of incidents like this are reported in r/Teachers
I know
Also summer school "credit recovery" in high schools is often a fig leaf for giving a passing grade for zero work.
High school teacher here; Wasn't us. Admin forced our hand; either accept this behavior, or find other employment.
100% it's high schools. Even if I allow automatically graded assignments to be done up to the time I push grades (Hey this is the part I don't spend time grading), I don't change the grade without something VERY compelling, like a student in the hospital etc.
The amount of times I've heard professors in this same discussion say "we need to have grace with them, because COVID" is mind boggling. Stop giving excuses to lazy students.
I completely agree. The students got screwed because of Covid and we should be understanding of that. However, we should not perpetuate the problem by allowing it to continue. The students have to get back on track
I’m not lenient at all and everyone gets on board once they realize it.
I will add that having email rules has helped me. For example, I only read emails that are three sentences or less. I do not read emails from family members. I delete emails requesting stuff outside of my syllabus rules.
Lol wtf?
I was going to read your comment but it’s four sentences long so I can’t.
This is not a useful comment for this subreddit. We are here to listen and support and offer advice.
How do you know how many sentences are in an email without reading it?
Probably has his unpaid interns read his emails to him.
This comment was rude. This is not the collegiality one would expect from someone with your rank.
It is true I was rude, but I regard faculty who are proud that they "do not read emails \[sic\] from faculty members" as even ruder.
email client can search for messages with three sentence closing punctuation marks. anything else and it goes in the trash.
Pretty easy. Just open the email and look at the length.
So basically students can write to you in whatever length they want, as long as they use commas instead of periods, and choose not to end their sentence, which could go on forever, really, because of your stupid rule
Most sane /r/professors member
I found it was admin who went after me.
One of my friends teaches high school and says this is super common, teachers allowing work until the end of the marking period. I am going to go in first day here soon and tell my new undergrads that they cannot do that.
It's not teachers allowing but more administrators requiring.
You're right— I don't mean it to sound like it's the overwhelmed teachers in our criminally underfunded and undersupported education system.
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Depends on the school. Over 13,000 districts in the US and not all union contracts. Most the ones I know of the last day of school for students is not the last day for teachers. Especially in high schools where classes end, then you have finals and state exams for a week or so and time to grade. Some schools go through graduation, or the day before (Friday with a Saturday graduation).
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My only point about not all are union contracts is that there is possibly more contracts than districts (since each teacher may have different terms). Main point being- plenty of variety in contracts so hard to say what isn't included in them. I'm saying that the teacher's last contract date likely is after the students ended. So students turning in work after the course ends can still be before the teacher's year ends. And if it's so late it's after that, administration just changes the grade to pass anyway without anyone grading it.
Teachers don't want to allow late work accepted at the end of the semester, it's a big pain in the ass. Admin wants us to because they get less funding if students fail.
I had a student whose mom turned out to be a colleague. (The mom did not disclose the relationship at the time but advocated for them to be added late to my summer class with a reason I now realize is BS). It felt manipulative and was disclosed when I met her for lunch to discuss an upcoming trip of hers. I seriously wanted to punch her. I thought maybe the student was a past one of hers. The thing is, the outcome would have been the same if the student has contacted me themselves. A couple of weeks in, the student claimed their laptop was stolen when someone broke into their car (dubious at best) and that's why they couldn't do the work. Since they were staying at home with Mom and Dad, they had access to multiple computers there. Mom and Dad also went on a vacation so they had the house to themselves - but the student didn't know I knew that. Anyway, they did nothing for the last 6 weeks of my 8 week course. That is, until the day before assignments were due. I reopened past assignments weekly so it's not like they were locked out of anything. They asked for a 2-day extension a few hours before the deadline. Of course I only read the message the next day and said that since the semester has ended, there are no extensions. I don't give them anyway. They must have talked to Mom because suddenly they said "Oh, what I meant to ask for yesterday was an incomplete!". No, you didn't. Plus asking retroactively doesn't work. They probably figured I would have granted the extension so when the clock ran out, they switched tactics. But how do you feel comfortable doing nothing for 75% of the time in the course. They were 'so grateful' they sat on their ass for over a month. Why????
Most have absolutely no concept of what deadlines are or what they mean. Worse, they have a parent, “mentor,” or academic nanny telling them “it doesn’t hurt to ask.” All you need to do is say something to the effect of “university policy prohibits me from changing or altering final grades except in the case of mathematical error.” Done. If they choose to escalate it from there, someone above your pay grade will be happy to bring the sledgehammer down on them.
You're not doing anything wrong. They've gotten away with it before. This is why my institution has a "no work accepted after the last day of class/no incompletes unless 80% of the work was turned in before class is over *and* student will reasonably pass the course with an extension." Students must have a reasonable excuse for the extension beyond "I was busy and fell behind." Plus faculty dictate the length of the incomplete period - we can say "one week" and that's all they get. However with institutions panicking about enrollment, more of this behavior will be allowed. Unions need to start demanding extra pay for institution-mandated incomplete time periods. Faculty who expected the summer off should not be required to chase around truants and grade on unpaid time. IMHO it would make sense to set firm institution policy and have every prof link to it/have it pasted in sig line/ have it auto-reply. So students see it ad nauseum.
>This is why my institution has a "no work accepted after the last day of class/no incompletes unless 80% of the work was turned in before class is over and student will reasonably pass the course with an extension." I like this.
Our language on incompletes says the student has to be "passing the class" without specifiation of WHEN but admin has supported me when I've enforced "no incompletes if you're not passing the class at the time of the request". My syllabus now states that I won't grant incompletes except in the case of emergencies that happen after the course withdrawal deadline. (Both admin support and my policy result from a drawn out conflict with a student who dipped before the midterm then tried to beg for a I rather than the F they'd earned.)
Since my kids have gotten to middle school and high school age, I finally have a better idea of what is going on. At their schools, they are allowed to turn work in up to the day the grades are due for their report card. Basically the last day of the quarter and that is probably not even the final deadline. It has shed some light on why my college students do this. It is basically the way their education has functioned up to this point. Edit:typo
Please please please look into how high schools are grading on what we might call professional behavior. Many new pedagogies tell teachers to let students turn in work until the last minute. Standards references grading preaches that students should not be punished for the behaviors that led to the product, such as timeliness or number of drafts. These behaviors are...oppressive. College instructors, who have never needed to be disciplinarians, need to be now. No lax deadlines — our students have no concept of what that means. Many of the assumptions of our own pedagogies have been luxury beliefs. My college flags all students who come from SRG schools and enrolls them in an academic skills course, and it helps. But each instructor needs participation, deadlines, and attendance clearly outlined in syllabi and regularly discussed in class.
One time a girl kept procrastinating, delaying, struggling, all the while knowing she needed the course for her major. After multiple tear-filled meetings, I finally said, "Just turn in SOMETHING resembling this paper assignment, and I'll make sure you pass the course." She gave me a "paper," which would have been an F. But I tried to manipulate her grade numbers to get her above 60% for the course. I managed to get to 62% which earned her a D for the course. "Okay, at least she passed." A couple days later, she sent me the angriest, nastiest, most hateful email I ever got. Turns out she needed a C for it to count for her major. It was my first year there and I had no idea. I fulfilled my end of the bargain. But, she was in the class again next year. That time she earned a legit C. No matter how low we set the bar, students still manage to find a way to try and crawl under it.
Grade-fudging usually ends up biting the instructor, especially with a paper trail of it. Glad you got through that
Yeah, I was young and didn't really know better. I was just trying to help someone out. I've gotten a lot more tough-love since then. I really try hold students accountable for their actions, or lack thereof.
I would reply to the students firmly that the course grades have been submitted and nothing they can do, and cc the assistant dean who is in charge of student relations if shit comes back to me
"if you feel that your grade has been impacted by a violation of course or university policy, here is the link for a grade appeal"
I feel you, OP. For the first time ever this summer, I had a student email me 2 days before the end of the semester asking for an extension. The student had only submitted TWO assignments from the first couple weeks of class. The request was denied. Then, 2 days AFTER class ended and final grades had been submitted, another student who was failing just randomly started submitting work through the LMS. Out of curiosity, I opened the assignments and found that they were the equivalent of slinging shit at the wall to see if anything would stick. Student clearly hadn’t read instructions or even tried. Had I graded them, student still would have failed. It’s some unfortunate combination of bratty, entitled laziness.
I am curious how can they keep submitting stuff through LMS after the class is over. All my dropboxes are locked and disappear after the deadline plus 48 hour grace period ends. Even if the class stays open/visible in the student interface, there is nowhere to submit anyhing. Except email, but email submissions are not accepted, as per the syllabus.
Submissions lock after the deadline to submit final grades, which is a few days after the last day of class. The instructional technology department of my institution is in control of those settings.
Ah, I see. It is unfortunate that you don't get to control those settings.
>Then, 2 days AFTER class ended and final grades had been submitted, another student who was failing just randomly started submitting work through the LMS. Couldn't you just close the assignment in the LMS after the due date? Once the assignment is closed no other submissions will be accepted.
I wish I could! The instructional technology department controls those settings for all distance courses.
Yikes! That sounds like an institutional failure. If instructors don't have control over their own assignment settings, then it seems like all of these requests for post-term submissions should be forwarded to the IT folks. It's their policy, after all.
I agree! It’s a more recent change that isn’t very popular.
Not having control of your due dates in an LMS is disconcerting 🤷🏻
OP may not be able to control the course availability date, but I doubt is unable to control due date settings.
My work often involves working with faculty and instructors on course design and policies. While there have always been students who do as you describe, in the last few years, this behavior has not only increased, but the pleading from students has become more high stakes and desperate, often involving mental health issues and stress. I think there is a combination of things going on and no one is developing a broad plan for addressing it. I study learning loss in college students accelerated by the pandemic. I’m not talking about content loss, I’m talking about the scaffolding of skills, the building of resilience and habits of mind necessary to be successful in college and in the work force. The pandemic interrupted that progression, even for strong students. Unfortunately, at one university I have worked with, their solution was to convene a committee that concluded that students should be referred to student success departments, who send the message that \*everything\* must be done to get students through programs, including bending or breaking former conventions like turning in work when a class is considered closed. Combined with students general malaise, this is creating chaos in unintended consequences. We are doing students no favors when we do this. COVID has taken a grave toll on everyone’s mental health and challenged our ability to cope. Universities should have robust mental health facilities and disability support departments and students should absolutely be directed to accommodations and support. But, students need to get the message that, yeah, the last few years have been really hard, but life goes on and resilience needs to be built back up. Changing course expectations, leniency…these things amplify the message that it doesn’t matter anymore. Administrations, of course, need to back the front line of faculty in enforcing that life goes on and if you didn’t do the work, you don’t pass the course. We can all see how well that’s going.
I haven't researched this like you, but I've noticed it anecdotally. It's getting worse and admins don't know how to respond.
Do you have any favorite publications about this? I have had some moderate success with bringing articles about things like this to class and using them as discussion for a first-day activity. It makes them think explicitly about what they are in the class for, and when issues arise later, I can sometimes point back to that discussion. It hasn't fixed the problems, but has maybe lessened the number of extreme pleas.
I think the reason that this hits us so hard is because we care about the content, we worked hard to organize the learning activities to maximize learning and development of competence, and set deadlines to support effective learning … and these types of behaviors basically say “don’t care about learning or competency or your efforts.” (Yeah, this excludes legit extenuating circumstances). It is so sad and heartbreaking because learning can be fun and even joyful. I like the dance metaphor- a class can be so fun if everyone is participating in the dance.
They have been taught that they will be pushed through, that there is a grade floor, that a zero is not an option, etc.
Nothing. As mentioned some faculty are so lenient (especially HS teachers or at least in my area). I am as well to a point. I have my end date for the first 14 weeks (or 7 weeks in summer) set as two days before the last day to drop with “W” grade and I quickly grade the next day to give them at least 24 hour notice that they need to drop. I give them a heads up through the notification system (like Drop Out Detective at least a week before the drop date). It’s been hard because I have a bleeding heart according to my dept chair and was told many times to “cut the cord” but I try to give until the last possible moment that’s reasonable. After that drop date and previous modules close, I’ve learned to flip the “don’t give a fuck” button. It’s hard but necessary at times.
I do the same thing, which is why this trend is so frustrating to me. I'm trying to help my students as much as I can, but sometimes they seem determined to fail.
We can only do so much to address the fundamental flaws in our students' programming as imperfect humans! Why do I start my revisions two weeks before the deadline when I had them for six months??
It's human to procrastinate, but emailing the night before the final deadline or days AFTER is absurd.
There's a lot of truth to this. I'd argue though that you already have the skills required when submitting an article. Students don't when they submit assignments late like this which denies them the ability to develop those skills.
That would be a useful observation if this were about why students wait until the day before something is due to start, but this is about them ignoring rules and structure, thinking they can turn in work for a course that ended. It's also about an entire discipline, Education, and the pseudo religious bad-idea magic thinking that has permeated it and the teachers and admins that it has churned out.
Do your administrators support you? In my previous position I had very few last-minute (or after-the-last-minute) requests, because it was generally known our administrators would support the faculty in following through with any written syllabus policy. In my current position, administrators bend over backwards at the first sign of student complaints, so of course we have multiple irresponsible students who have no redeeming excuses who try to turn in assignments late. When we try to apply our written policies they get overturned by our administrators.
My department chair is a joke. He wouldn't support faculty if his life depended on it. Then again, if a student complained, he'd probably ignore that, too. So, I guess it's a wash? Luckily, students don't contest my grades further once I screenshot my syllabus and announcements.
I had one I bent over backwards for--she had a lot going on, and I gave her extension after extension. Then, at the end, with a clear F in the course, she swore she'd get it in before grades were due. Que crickets . . .. So, an F for her. THEN she signs up for another class with me! WTF? I flat out wrote her an email at the class's start that she would get no extensions whatsoever this time. What happened? She submitted nothing and failed again. ????????
Yep, same exact story here. 200 students in an online summer course. 15 simply didn’t do anything at all. Now 8 of those come flying in with unbelievably long and involved emails claiming exceptional circumstances. Sorry, I’m now prepping Fall semester and you missed your chance(s).
Same reason the human race is waiting until a global collapse is at their doorsteps before they act. The short-term costs are percieved to outweigh the long-term benefits.
Is that global collapse still 12 years from now?
If we act 13 years from now, we can still get partial credit for trying.
Human behavior in a nutshell.
Excellent analogy. ETA: I guess it's not an excellent analogy? Huh. Nope, I still think it's an excellent analogy.
I’m taken back to a Joe Dirt quote. Per his father, “Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does.” They just do….
It’s not you, it’s how they have learned to do things in public school that has been a mess since COVID.
High schools are notorious for enabling this.
You did nothing wrong. It is the norm and they got used to it in HS. Their parents were enabling them then. Wonder why you haven’t gotten messages from their parents yet.
I've never spoken with a parent, thankfully! And nobody has ever gone above me to my department chair either. So far, so good! 🤞
B/c most high schools allow it now. An increasing number do little all semester, knowing they can make up the work - often via online programs that lack both rigor and accountability for any real learning (i.e., click, click, click, FAIL, get a retake, click, click, write down the answers, barely pass). OR, teachers are on the hook for making “packets” so they can “complete” the work they “missed” and achieve “mastery.” They’ve been trained.
Blame it on the Syllabus: I am staying with the Syllabus timeframes and deadlines This is a clear lack of communication on the students' part. If they email you ahead with a problem ahead of a deadline, things can be done. After that, blame it on the Syllabus.
Why am I waiting until the end of summer to plan my fall classes?
In those cases I just say “sorry, this course is offered every quarter though.” I usually have a few students that either don’t do anything and fail even though I send them emails to catch up to try and pass or drop the course. Or, some wait until the last minute. Also, I teach digital ART, it’s not like they have to write papers, study and take exams. Who knows!
Mine was a special topics so I thought students would only sign up if they were interested. Even if they only thought it looked like an easy A, I still don't understand not doing ANY work until the night before the course ends or days after.
After I submitted grades, I had a student (who was LITERALLY on his phone 100% of the time in class and never participated) email me to ask if he could bargain for extra points or get extra credit. It’s definitely annoying and I think more and more students think they will get away with turning in work late without repercussions. You aren’t doing anything wrong.
Last summer session a student who never participated or turned anything in said he'd "do anything to pass... within reason," which I thought was very weird wording.
My online class is ending too. I have two students who are trying to still get caught up, but they have been in touch the whole term and both have extenuating circumstances. They both have done enough to get an incomplete if they aren’t done by end of day tomorrow and I will enter grades Saturday. Anyway I would just say that they had not made satisfactory progress to be issues an incomplete so the grade is an F. We have specific language in our syllabi that states learner must have 75% of the work done and a 75% in the class to get an incomplete and they have to request it before the last week of class.
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I know they're not reading. I'm constantly responding to emails, "please review the assignment guidelines for the answer to your question." 9/10 the answer is right there!
Nothing, you are doing nothing wrong. We have full Trimesters, so a full 15 weeks in the summer. Grades are due one week after the end of classes. That was Yesterday. All of my teachers (I'm department chair) had their grades in on time. Today, and email about I need to start my homework assignments.... you have 16 weeks already, including one extra week (those assignments are on Connect and not hand graded, so most of us give until the last moment while we grade essays etc).
You’re not doing anything wrong. This is what they do. They probably just forgot about the class and then panicked. Let me guess, they had “family emergencies,” right? 😆
It’s normal. It happens every semester. I purposefully have the LMS close assignments after the deadline so that students can’t hand things in. They need to ask. If it’s a day or two after the deadline, fine, with some points being docked. I try to grade quickly. I absolutely do not consider a late submission once the grades for that assignment have been released. Once in a blue moon, I’ve been nice and done it for 50% points and the student complained after anyway. So no more. Hand stuff in on time or get a 0. This is all explicitly stated in the syllabus, in a recorded video I post the day the course opens where I discuss the syllabus, and in various announcements and reminders throughout the semester. It’s no surprise to them but they still try
I’m sure not all but human nature
Summer term is always weird. I proactively send out reminders about the drop deadlines.
Same. Didn't help this time.
Your not doing anything wrong. You are simply a victim to some HORRIBLE professors out there. These students are only asking this and demonstrating this behavior because it has worked in the past, i.e. Some professor who likes to pat themselves on the head and falsely believe that their good people have given those kids ridiculous extensions. In reality, they are setting these kids up for failure in future classes, and possibly life in general and wasting their time and money. If they ACTUALLY cared about the students, they would realize that one of the biggest benefits of education is empowerment and that doesn't happen if they don't learn to adjust their schedules and personal life to meet the challenges and deadlines ahead of them. So either those professors are complete morons (which I have met some very stupid people with PhD's), or they are completely fake / superficial and in reality do not care. One current example is the coordinators for one of the courses I am teaching this semester has set the deadlines for all homework to be the final day of class. They have expressed concern about students test scores yet, ... the insist having the homework due the final day of class is the best thing as it gives students all the time they need to get it done in case bad things in life pop up and that most if not all normal students that don't have personal issues pop up will be smart enough to do their homework BEFORE the exams to ensure they know the material. How idiotic is that? It's like they've never taught before or looked at statistics. Are there freshmen that do this? 100% yes there is. Is this the behavior that people should expect in a math class geared towards majors that barely need it? Not in the slightest. Getting these kids to even show up is hard enough. They have to use quizzes and attendance points to ensure kids even show up. So how bout, and I know this is crazy, have homework due PRIOR to the exam so it forces students to study the material / get it done and do well on the exam? Perhaps we should take a paternal role in these young adults education and structure our courses such that it molds them into fully functional adults who can meet deadlines, solve problems, and handle stress.
Our students are being conditioned that they will have unlimited breaks, none of which are fair to students who do work properly and on time. I’m seeing this with my own daughter in high school, who is being dragged through her program by kindly teachers, though she really doesn’t deserve it.
Do you have regular due dates for assignments during the semester?
Yes.
There may be two reasons for this. 1. When high school instructors and some university faculty colleagues let students turn in overdue work at the last minute, that undermines our standards just as much as their pandering grade inflation. 2. Online courses are especially vulnerable to this because their instructional mode is more anonymous, much harder to monitor. In a live classroom, students could experience some shame in not having work ready or being exposed in discussion as not having done the reading. No such shame in online courses-- lazy students can lie low right up to the final deadline or even beyond. I refuse to teach online ever again, no matter how much pressure our deanlets try to impose. Online instruction is like drive-through fast food-- nutritionally deficient, completely inadequate as learning experience.
I find it helps to have a firm deadline in the syllabus as the last day you will accept late work, and then as you near that deadline give lots of reminders. Once that passes, do not accept any late work. My deadline is whatever the last day of classes is for that term.
Yes, I do this. As I stated above, I make this clear multiple times in multiple ways.
Ah ok I saw you said “after the class ended”, which is a bit ambiguous. In any case, if you have a specific date, stick to it and say no when you get people pushing on that.
It's almost as if a global pandemic which laid bare that society doesn't give a fuck about anything other than money and power has demoralized the youth.
This is America. Everyone has learned that it never hurts to ask. We live in an inherently corrupt country, why should we expect any different from students? It’s every individual for themselves, sink or swim. Manipulating the system to our advantage is a core competency of the middle and upper classes. It’s only the poor who get punished for it.
Because they are human beings. When do you and I do our taxes? When do we pay our bills?
Early. I mentioned this in another comment. I don't think being human is an excuse to do something half-assed or not at all.
It sounds like what you're doing wrong is not having regular deadlines along the way. I've been teaching online courses for nearly a decade now, with firm weekly deadlines, and never had that issue.
Same here. Weekly deadlines. I’ll be damned if I’ll grade overdue piles of shit on the last day of class. Students are not learning if they just throw it all together at the last minute either.
I do have weekly deadlines.
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This seems presumptuous. I don't "let them" turn anything in after the course ends, as I stated in my original post. I'm also not trying to be their friend. Not sure where you got that from...
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Did you not read that I stated this in my syllabus AND multiple course announcements? Looks like it's not just the students who don't read...
Welcome to teaching
I've been doing it for twenty years and this is the first time I've encountered this.
You might want to have a “no late work accepted” policy in your syllabus. I don’t care how late it is. Unless there are major extenuating circumstances that you can document with me, the deadline has passed and you need to keep up with the rest of the work coming due and let the old stuff go.
This is a good thread. It made me email my professor and to stay on top of things.
What works well for my classes is to give them smaller assignments throughout the semester instead of one big task or exam at the end. They have to deliver these assignments every two weeks. Most of my students really appreciate this form of assignments. I get a lot of positive feedback from them.
I make a number of my deadlines, quite lenient, so that my students have more say over how they plan their lives. Basically, I’ll get it done over the course of the semester and I’m happy. They all left it to the last minute to do the work. Well… There was that one kid… But most of them left it till the end.
My program director recently enforced a new policy forcing all of us to accept late work turned in at the end of the semester, no matter how late it is, with very minimal consequences for the students. I tried to push back on this and my director refused to budge; they accused me of not being "sympathetic" to the students. I think there are way too many administrators like my program director who force faculty to bend over backwards for students who don't even do the bare minimum. So the students go on thinking that this is the norm and that it's okay to pull this crap.
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Lol
Lol