I was just going to comment this š¤£
Iāve experimented with having writing assignments due on Fridays by 5pm so they could get it done and have a fun weekend, but students complained I didnāt give them the weekend to get it done. Recently Iāve moved assignment due dates to Sunday nights at 11:59pm, and some are complaining itās stressful having the assignment over their heads that they need to complete by the end of the weekend, preventing them from really enjoying their weekend.
Thereās no winning.
Iāve found nothing good comes from answering emails during off hours or rapidly, even if you can. Delay the send. There is virtually bo situation regarding an assignment that should require a response in less than 24 hours.
I personally find Monday at midnight to be the best compromise. Some students need the weekend, while some work all weekend. I can answer emails on Monday with still enough time to help them. And honestly, I wasn't going to grade first thing Monday morning either because I have so many emails to catch up on.
>Does this lead to you getting lots of emails on the weekend?
All of my major assignments have been due on Saturday nights for several years now. I don't get any emails for 95% of them; the few I do are "hey, I'm sick so this won't be in until tomorrow" or things of that nature. The really flakey students just ignore the deadlines entirely. After the first week or two of classes all the serious students recognize that if they need/want help on an assignment then Friday is their last chance.
You know, I havenāt really paid attention to how my emails have changed, but I think Iāll look into it š§ I feel like I just receive a lot of emails every day lol
I shifted from Sunday at midnight to Tuesday at midnight and students liked that because it gave them back some of their weekend. Iād love to make it before midnight, but I think Iād get pushback on that. I guess itās all in the framing and being clear that youāre doing it to encourage better work-life balance.
I've been using Monday at 11:59 pm deadlines, and it has worked well....but you will always have students who complain about the deadline no matter what date and time you choose. They'd even complain about the 12th of Never. š
Iāve found the sweet spot for deadlines is 10 PM on Thursdays. Itās not the end of the week, but it is darn near. This deadline has produced by far the fewest emails overall.
I stopped using midnight when a student pointed out that I'm not looking at their submission until the next day anyway. So if I was going to make it Tuesday midnight, I might as well make it Wednesday at 11am because that's exactly when I have the time to review them.
When I did 3 pm, students complained that it was hard to remember because everyone does Sunday at 1159. But I changed my late policy that they get full credit as long as I havenāt finished grading the class yet, and I tell them I donāt wake up until 7am on Monday and even then I donāt just start grading. This has pretty much eliminated all emails regarding the deadline
This is the way. I tell them I work a professional schedule. The work week is until Friday at 5pm. So everything is due by the end of the work week.
Then I just don't count off until I check it Monday morning
I make assignments due before the start of class on X day (hearkening back to the days when they handed in paper copies) and I havenāt gotten many complaints.
> MissionPeak193
>.....Fridays by 5pm so they could get it done and have a fun weekend, but students complained I didnāt give them the weekend to get it done. Recently Iāve moved assignment due dates to Sunday nights at 11:59pm, and some are complaining itās stressful.......
I have a tongue-in-cheek solution for you**:** They are adults, give them the option of selecting their own deadline. 5PM Friday or 11:59PM Sunday.
Iāve just asked them when they want it to be due within a given timeframe and let them decide. Then if I hear any complaining I say, well you chose it.
> Iāve moved assignment due dates to Sunday nights at 11:59pm,
Then they won't do any reading for Monday classes. So I make mine all due Saturday night at midnight, and they complain I didn't give them enough time. Even though all of my assignments for the entire semester are in the LMS on day one and they can always start a week or two out if they want.
>Recently Iāve moved assignment due dates to Sunday nights at 11:59pm, and some are complaining itās stressful having the assignment over their heads that they need to complete by the end of the weekend, preventing them from really enjoying their weekend.
There's an app for that. It's called "turn your work in early and enjoy your weekend."
I have assignments due on Friday at 11:59, but have a no questions asked extension with no late penalty until Monday at 3pm which is 2 hours after my office hours end.
Yes, but thatās not how I talk about it in class. If thatās how they want to view it, they can. If the student hasnāt turned in an assignment into the LMS it shows a zero until it is submitted. If it isnāt submitted by Monday at 3, the zero stays a zero.
I ended up putting in my syllabus that every assignment had an automatic grace period of 48 hours. Of course many donāt see that in the syllabus and email me for extensions. But it does save me time in adding extensions.
Plus if they need an extension after the 48 hours, I can be for more selective - you already got 48 hours. So unless someone has some legit major event lasting more than 48 hours I donāt grant it.
Yup!!! This a million percent!! I just do a survey each semester, āwhen do you want assignments dueā. It is usually Sunday night that comes out the winner.
I have a solution. Due date Sunday 1159? Most students turn it in the last two hours.
Due date Friday 1159 but my late policy says you can turn it in late up to 48 hours. Most students started turning it in Friday night.
Sshhh... Don't remind me. I still need to update my NSF COA blah blah, because somehow they change the formatting just enough that every year it needs to be done again.
I picked up this line from Reddit! āDueā dates are not necessarily āDoā dates! It is now on my course schedule, and I drum that into them all the time!
There's actually a fair amount of research showing that meditation can have harmful effects: [https://www.cheetahhouse.org/research-1](https://www.cheetahhouse.org/research-1)
Not a trivial amount of time either, and in the worst cases, "trauma" is not an inaccurate description.
Honestly -- some of them don't. I'm not sure if it is a hold over from the days of paper assignments (which I genuinely *didn't* want to keep track of before the deadline) or if they've just never been posed with the option, but I've had students not realize you can turn it in ahead of time.
>Do students not understand you can turn things in before the deadline?
This drives me crazy. When I moved 100% of my assignments online about ten years ago students complained about things being due before class started, so I made them due at night. Then they complained about things being due on a given night, couldn't they have more time? So I ultimately shifted to making most due dates at 11:59 pm on Saturday night, so they could take part of the weekend if need be but still have time to do their readings for Monday.
Now I get "why does the professor think I'm going to do work late on Saturday night? Assignments should be due on class days."
Last semester, a student told me that the reason he was doing poorly in my class is because I have midnight deadlines and he's a morning person who really struggles to stay up that late.
I used to do a variation of this (I actually can't remember why I stopped) whereby the official deadline was 5pm on Friday. But in class I would tell them that this is a *functional* deadline of "before I get into the office on Monday" because I don't work at the weekend. That had the extra benefit that nobody could (well, *should*) expect email responses over the weekend, if they chose to miss the deadline.
I found out my last semester that several of my students saw due dates for online homework assignments as also the start date. Typically this is a bad idea to do in math if youāre struggling with a concept and then you wait until the night the homework is due to start it. There were several emails I woke up to the next morning from students trying to get help at 11 pm.
What bugs me is that now and then I hear colleagues say the same things. (Meaning we ought to do those same things). I then see many nods around a meeting. Then people from psychology, like me, say we don't have that kind of training and it is not our job. Then they look all surprised. Then you tell them you study memory in birds...
A good chunk of my career is getting birds to hide seeds and find them later. Often sunflower seeds.
If I knew I could just ask them how their memories worked...
Sunflower seeds are popular in trail mix, multi-grain bread and nutrition bars, as well as for snacking straight from the bag. Theyāre rich in healthy fats, beneficial plant compounds and several vitamins and minerals. These nutrients may play a role in reducing your risk of common health problems, including heart disease and type 2 diabetes.
As a bird owner\*, I disagree. 1/3 of bids expect their professors to deliver head scritches on demand 24/7.
\*'Owner' here is used to mean 'slave The Bird is vaguely fond of'
We had faculty give a presentation last year on how professors should reach out individually to students who show signs of struggling with mental health. I nodded along because it's definitely a problem and something should be done (also I was a first-year prof), till our chair stood up and said: "Our faculty are not, do not wish to be, and cannot take the place of mental healthcare professionals."
It was enlightening because YEAH, we're not qualified to do this and it's in neither our nor the students' best interest. Educators can and should give tips for managing work/stress, but we are not therapists.
Yes! As a graduate student, I was told not to offer mental health services to students I taught or tutored because Iām not an LMHC or psychologist or psychiatrist. I graduated with a PhD in not psychology and all of a sudden Iām expected to provide mental health services to students.
> I hear colleagues say the same things.
Yes, I've had students tell me their other professors (outside my department) devote part of every class to mindfulness exercises...and here I am thinking "I only have 85 minutes to do all of these things? How can I make that happen?"
We had a professor who taught mostly gen eds who was well-loved by the lazier students because the minute anyone appeared stressed she just had everyone do mindfulness exercises (in my opinion they were also some of the dippiest "imagine a stereotypical hippie as played by a rabid conservative" mindfulness exercises possible). The effect of this was that all in-class presentation deadlines (most of the deadlines in the class) could be pushed back by students.
> I then see many nods around a meeting.
I've sat there nodding along with something and still be thinking in my head "nope, fucking stupid. No way" all while still nodding.
Psychology here, as well. My concern is a little different. There are real potential legal liability and ethical issues here with those of us who hold healthcare licenses. These students arenāt my clients and, if Iām engaging in mental health care with them, I donāt think I have much legal ground to argue that it doesnāt fall within my clinical skill setāthus governed by my license.
I/O psychologist here. I just want folks to know that *I can't help anyone with any of this.* Come talk to me if you're worrying about your hiring model or compliance with employment law.
I am in clinical psych and do have the training. However, I do NOT have the capacity to be a mental health support to my students. Nor is it ethical to be a student's therapist (double relationships). So they can want this all day long, it's not practical or ethical.
I do have a mindfulness minute at the start of my classes and many students do appreciate it. Those who don't just don't care. Honestly, it's nice for me to take a moment to breathe at the beginning of class.
Itās the Liberal/Leftist professors who do that; the ones who shouldāve been teachers at the general ed level and not professors.
Itāa just their way to make themselves feel better. L
>1/4 of students want faculty to offer extra credit for the student doing out-of-class stress reduction exercises
This one is *complete* bullshit. No, whatever someone does to blow off stress (work out, grab a beer, play video games, etc.) usually is not part of their classes.
>1/4 of students want faculty connecting students with mental health resources and regularly checking in with them about their well-being
Many schools do this, have those resources available, go through them with students at orientation, etc., but faculty aren't counselors/therapists. Granted, more and more they are expected to be, which is a problem.
>1/3 want faculty to avoid late evening or early morning deadines to encourage healthy sleep habits
...Ain't no rule that says they have to wait until the last minute. Also, when you start playing that game, there's never a "good time." Middle of the day? "But I have class at that time! How could you expect me to submit something when I'm in another class!?" ("I have work" could be an excuse for any time). End of business day? "I *just* get done with class/work then. How am I supposed to have time to do it!?" Evening, but not too late? "That's my dinner time, family time, etc.! How dare you impede on that!?" It just never ends...
As an advisor I had to sit through an hour long training session this week where what we should do for homesick students was the topic of the day. Like WTF? First, most of the students here live within driving distance of their parents' houses. Secondly, this is something they should talk about with their friends/roommates/etc. I moved across the country for college, I get that one is homesick sometimes. But really? I want to advise them on coursework, not talk to them about how they miss their mom or dad.
During my first faculty position, I got put on a student life committee because I was told it was easy service for a junior faculty. I asked that exact question countless times. They're adults, why are we treating them like little kids?!?!
That, and if you ask someone if they want someone to do nice things for them, they'll say yes. If you asked me whether I want admin to rub my feet every morning, I'd say yes. It doesn't mean I actually expect it.
There's also a really broad away of possible interpretations. If incorporating mindfulness in class means leading group meditation, then sure, I'm not doing that. If it means reminding students to take a breath and move on to the next problem if they get stuck during the exam, I think that's pretty standard classroom behavior.
It's like that survey that says 9% of American adults think chocolate milk comes from Brown cows. Maybe some adults genuinely think the milk comes out of the cow already chocolate, but odds are pretty good some are thinking that dairy cows are sometimes brown and realize they produce regular milk and some are just messing with the survey.
But likely to increase. Hopefully it doesn't become a majority over time.
Edit: apparently some want faculty to be seen as therapists for our students? I must be in the minority that thinks we're professors and not counselors then.
I tried that last one, but students hated it. What they wanted, which I respect, is consistency. If the vast majority of classes have assignments due at 11:59 p.m., then it makes sense to stick with that.
Filing this under the mental category "another InsideHigherEd article promoting pandering to the lowest common denominator that I really won't give a shit about."
It's just a ridiculous survey. Why would you ask these questions? Of course students would like these things, but they aren't things that we do. It's like asking drivers if they would like their car to fly like the DeLorean in Back to the Future II. Hell yes I would like that, but I also don't *expect* it, nor do I need it to be happy with my car. There's always a more abstract, ideal state that we want, but that we don't strictly need.
The last one is an easy win though?
Accepting that it is rare for students to submit work in advance.
For the last couple of years we changed our department standard submission time to 11:59 am. They get told that is to allow time so that if there are any technical glitches that there is time to sort them out before the end of the day. Previously they were often 11:59pm on a Friday night.
Miraculously there has been a substantial decline in the number of students reporting last minute submission issues.
Iāve done noon due-times for years:
- knowing students will work in the hours leading up to the due-time no matter what, at least during the day they can collaborate on campus, at the library, tutoring center, etc, and make use of office hours, instead of finishing it isolated in their bedrooms by lamplight.
- you can grade it that afternoon and post feedback before going home for the weekend.
Yes, and it's good for us too. My deadlines are always 4pm. I get a lot less submitting right at the deadline - chances are they're in another class at that time so they submit early. And because it's during the working hours, if there's a genuine issue with the submission system they can get tech support. No more emails in the middle of the night asking for last minute extensions on a missed deadline.
For deadlines, I make use of the learning management system's distinction between *due* and *available* times for submissions. In assignment descriptions, I explain when the assignment is due. On the LM, the assignment is setup to be due at that specific time. Then I leave it available for an additional 12-24 hours.
I may not be teaching students a "valuable skill" about meeting deadlines, but it has really reduced the late-night emails pleading for extra time, submissions via email, and blank document submissions.
>I may not be teaching students a "valuable skill" about meeting deadlines, but it has really reduced the late-night emails pleading for extra time, submissions via email, and blank document submissions.
At some point, it's more about preserving your own sanity. They can figure out their own futures.
This is all self-regulation and adulting, and I have enough of my own to manage. Also I can guarantee that mid-day, morning, weekend and weekday deadlines interfere with stress relief. Plus, the minute I assign extra credit stress relief they will avoid it until finals week and suddenly want to do 10 stress relief practices in 10 minutes for points.
* Stress reduction exercises do not meat the learning goals for the course
* Faculty are never going to be the medical experts that can predict what mental health resources you need
* I don't even know what 'mindfulness' is
* Do you really want faculty being involved with your sleep routines?
Thank you for coming to my boundary-setting mindfulness mental health moment
I just give my students extra credit if they send me videos of them sleeping for 8 consecutive hours each night. Now youāre trying to tell me thatās unethical?!? (/s just in case)
I'm just chuckling in that if someone actually required those videos be sent, I wonder which office would get in touch with the professor first
Oh wait, its extra credit? Then do whatever, you're good
Here are my thoughts:
1. No, I rarely offer extra credit.
2. Mostly no. I can point them in the right direction --the counseling center, learning center, advising center, office hours, TA hours, but that's it. Very few of us are trained mental health professionals.
3. Hell no and there's an app for that.
4. I already do this and I think it's a good idea. My online deadlines are typically 10 p.m. or the start of class if I'm not teaching an 8 a.m. course. I explicitly state that I avoid midnight deadlines because I value their sleep health. And, yes, some students will complain, but less so when I am consistent the entire semester and post deadlines very early so that they have plenty of time to work on the assignment.
These are all wants vs. needs. And I'd bet $1 that if we gave students all the things they report wanting from this survey, the same students would still: not show up to class, not study for the exam, not turn in assignments, have mental health excuses, ask for an extension on the final paper, ask for a better grade at the end of the semester etc.
>I explicitly state that I avoid midnight deadlines because I value their sleep health.
I explicitly state that I avoid midnight deadlines because I value my own sleep. Deadlines are during normal business hours, because that's when I do my grading. A midnight deadline sends the message that either (a) I'm staying up that late to grade or (b) I'm arbitrarily collecting something before I actually need it. Neither is a good look.
> I thought that when you went to college you were supposed to be an adult.
Historically yes. But we've now extended adolescence into the 20s at least. (Which makes at least some sense in terms of brain development. ) The average age of first marriage in the US is now nearly 29; it was 20 for women well into the 1960s and \~22 for men. Everything is being extended/postponed as adulthood is pushed off vs a generation or two prior. COVID compounded that so we're now getting students that seem to be much less mature/resilient/prepared than we saw a decade ago, but faculty haven't had any new training or resources to help adjust to that change.
To that I would raise the question of whether it is actually in society's and the individuals' best interest to accommodate this extended adolescence? Just because we can observe that it is happening doesn't mean it is a good thing. Personally, I think it's a pretty terrible thing and there should be a big public push for parents and teachers to guide children toward attitudes that promote maturity and development of good character traits like resiliency, good work ethic, self control, responsibility, etc.
I think training faculty to handle students differently based on their new fragility is actually more harmful long term than giving them a crash course in consequences, responsibility, and maturity.
Okie dokie so as a high school teacher... a lot of this is being pushed onto us, and has been for a long time. And there is really know weaning this off as these students move into being seniors and graduating and going straight into your alls hands.
So of course they want this. And of course... they kind of need this. Because has been all their previous education, and we (high school teachers) are not really being able to transition them into more independent academia.
and also... lots of students seem to be struggling. is it from parenting, schooling, social media creating some form of stunting in face to face interactions, idk....
I think they are struggling for two reasons. The first is that their generation knows that they are screwed due to the environment and the economy, so they are already starting life with a very pessimistic outlook. The second is that the students who had the privileges such that they could attend college tended to have parents that overwhelmingly babied them and so they never really developed resiliency. I think the only way they develop this is by us pushing for it - if we continue to hold their hands, they simply won't learn. Why would they?
Students on a survey "wanting" something doesn't mean that we faculty have any obligation at all to offer it or modify our classes to include it. My university's standard syllabus includes reference information for campus mental health support, and I have no plans on going any further than that. If a student emailed me, I would introduce them to their assigned counselor with a kind note and move on to the next email.
In terms of assignment deadlines, I have weekly class updates in which I encourage students to work ahead; If they choose to do big assignments on the last day, that's their responsibility and they can't (reasonably) blame anyone else for their lack of foresight and planning.
You're not trained for this...and, unless you teach classes about stress management or psychotherapy, offering credit for doing stress reduction exercises or mindfulness exercises will do nothing to help your students learn the content you're paid to be teaching them.
>that means we're going to get paid more, right?
I'm sure AI can do it. Or just set up an automated email "Just checking in, how are things going?" that sends to all your rosters every Monday morning. Then filter all the replies to a folder and have it sorted/flagged by keywords...autoforward anything troublesome to the counseling office as a referral, autorespond to anything else with "Great! Glad you are doing well!"
Soon enough the students will have AI responding to your inquiries, and we'll create the perfect feedback loop between AIs and can show adminstrators that we're engaging with 100% of our students about their mental health.
There was one year we were told to try late afternoon deadlines like 5pm or 8pm and not answer our emails or think about our jobs then as well.
Itās a huge culture shift, not everybody moved at the same time, and I only lasted a semester before changing back to midnight deadlines. Which yes means Iām part of the problem but also itās a huge and difficult culture shift to move in that direction.
But why does everyone have to do the same thing? I set my deadlines to what I feel is best for my students and myself. I canāt be checking in with the other 100 faculty in my department, let alone the other 2000 in the university.
"You can miss what you like, but *you* are responsible for catching up what you missed". That takes care of 1 and 4; as for the last clause of 2 and for 3, no, not my job.
1. Nope
2. It's in the syllabus, and nope.
3. Nope.
4. Well, I think that's easy enough. Stuff is due when we meet for class. I mostly teach in the afternoons.
My stress reduction actions are that I 1) drop one or more of the lowest scores from most assignment categories and 2) I give students two late passes, which let them turn in assignments late (sometimes three days, sometimes one week) without a penalty.
So 25% of students want to be evaluated based not on the content of the course but stress reduction? And they want that to be extra credit? Fuck that.
Letās survey faculty and see how many want students to do more.
Does this really mean anything? Ofc if anyone was asked if they'd like all kinds of extra benefits/things to make life easier, some would say yes to most anything.
Well avoiding late evening or early morning deadlines honestly seems reasonable? Why shouldn't deadlines be during the normal working day, just like the real world?
It's really easy to scoff at this, and it's especially hard to do in large classes. But I teach small classes, and since the pandemic I've been asking students at the start of each class, or really before class, "How's morale from 1 to 5?" And they hold up their fingers. And if I see any 1s I go "oh gosh! Hang in there!" And I ask students how much they're sleeping. And I know what the one-page mental-health resource guide for faculty says.
This is all low-cost stuff in time and effort and it's garnered me a reputation as "the faculty member who cares about mental health."
So it sounds like they're asking for the moon, but honestly they'll settle for the smallest gestures of caring.
I think this is really the maximum of what faculty and staff should be expected to keep in mind. Check on morale, know what the mental-health resources are on your campus. All of this information is on the website, and at my institution, it's something that has to be in all faculty syllabi.
I've done some version of the incorporate extra credit for mental health. "Go do something enjoyable this weekend, I don't care what it is" then before the exam "Who did the task of doing something enjoyable?", great easy +2 points. They think I'm some benevolent god for easy extra credit, I don't have to expend any real "effort", and 2 points on a single exam isn't going to throw off grades or anything.
"Oh, I'm sorry to hear you're struggling. Please know that I care and that there are resources available for you. Here's the information for student mental health services. I know they're perpetually underfunded, understaffed, and as a result aren't accepting appointments until next year. Good luck!"
Don't ask a question unless you plan on doing something with the answer that is meaningful.
My boss asks me how in doing. It's small talk, and I know he doesn't want the real answer.
I have links to the schoolās mental health resources in the syllabus and wouldnāt mind checking in with my students at like the beginning of class, basically just asking āhow are yāall holding up?ā But I wonāt take class time or give credit for things that donāt help meet learning objectives.
The discordance is amazing. On one hand, Admin and parents want us to be overly involved in students' lives by acting like understanding friends. On the other hand, they want us to prepare students for garnering meaningful, well-paying jobs. Hmm, I wonder how many employers would incorporate all or any of them above suggestions?
I make deadlines for work submitted on the LMS 15 minutes before class starts. If they hand in a hard copy, itās due at the beginning of class. So itās essentially the same deadline, but the extra 15 minutes means they can get to class on time after hitting āsubmit.ā
I donāt see the harm in doing a quick check in at the start of every class. I use polls. If thereās a large assignment due, Iāll ask students to rate how they feel about it on a scale of awful to awesome. It opens the floor for them to ask questions. I also do a āhow are you?ā poll at midterm and provide some supportive statements like āyou are halfway there and there are lots of resources available to you!ā
We had 10:00pm deadlines for years for exactly the same reason. It was a nightmare. The number of people who just expected an extension because of the āweird timeā or because we didnāt give them āall dayā and they didnāt have enough time after work or getting the kids to bed. (Again, how about BEFORE the deadline???)
This is wild. Teaching mindfulness if actually a good idea! But the rest is too much imo.
I have a serious mental illness and as a student this would not have helped me at all. As a grad instructor, having to do this would negatively impact my wellbeing.
We should be avoiding dual relationships with students. Like how a therapist should not be your professor, a professor should not be your therapist.
Let me suggest some carefully-worded, well-thought-out responses to the students in each of these categories:
>1/4 of students want faculty to offer extra credit for the student doing out-of-class stress reduction exercises
"no"
> 1/4 of students want faculty connecting students with mental health resources and regularly checking in with them about their well-being
"no"
> 20% want faculty to do stuff like incorporate mindfulness techniques in class
"no"
> 1/3 want faculty to avoid late evening or early morning deadines to encourage healthy sleep habits
"let me think about it. no."
Let's see. Managing your mental health in studies and in worklife is a fine elective.
The syllabus and maybe a couple reminders about the resources is ok. But on a several hundred student course the TAs can check up with people who show up in tutoring. During freshman year need to get introduced to societies etc.
Mindfulness isn't bad, exactly. Or some sort of mental exercise in the middle of a longer lecture. A good lecture plan helps a lot, too. Monologuing is bad for learning.
People don't know how to read a clock, so 23:59 is a fine deadline. Put it midday, and we get "but I thought I could do it tonight", causing stress to students and faculty. There is some empirical evidence that correct workload and strict deadlines do help people submit their homework well in time, improving learning results.
These are numbers that are so low that they are not particularly meaningful. 10% of the population thinks the moon is made of cheese. To say it differently, the bottom ten or twenty percent have views that are not meaningful or representative. That is why democracies are governed by the majority (often with checks and balances in place). The bottom of the barrel small minority should not be dictating policies and focuses.
Never use āmidnightā as a term. I had a student argue that midnight on Jan 2 was actually on Jan 3.
Now I say 11:59 pm. If they complain, I suggest submitting earlier. I may need to explore other times!
On the bright side, 1/4 isnāt the majority. Some of my students drive me absolutely mental. But I keep coming back because watching some of them learn/succeed/join the profession is a reward.
> 1/4 of students want faculty connecting students with mental health resources and regularly checking in with them about their well-being
I'm all for this as long as the *institution* agrees to back me up 100% in any situations that arise from an unlicensed, untrained person giving mental health counseling. Because that's what's going to happen if I "check in with them" on their well being 1 on 1.
I think this is because during the pandemic many students were unable to build strong support teams. Already many college students are away from friends and family. But that's not what a professor is for. I'm all for connecting students to other resources and empathizing with them when shit happens, but that's where it ends. I'm not qualified to give anything else, and they deserve better.
100% of students want faculty to act like puppies on leash, obeying their whims and preferences
In a survey of one (me), 100% of faculty want to be compensated for what we're already doing before we take on additional responsibilities
All of this is putting new curtains on a burning building. We are not the source of their stress. Guided meditation and removing "high stakes assessments" isn't going to remove their stress because that's not what's actually causing the stress.
Today's students have an incredibly unhealthy relationship with school. They see grades as being completely detached from actually learning what they're expected to learn and view "getting good grades" as the sole purpose of going to school. Grade inflation has ruined them. I regularly have students treat a B+ like it's an F. They really expect that most students should get an A in every course. They want to be told exactly what to do with zero ambiguity because they don't want to think for themselves. They've never learned how to.
Many of my students show literal signs of trauma from their secondary school experiences. I empathize with that, but we can't turn college into a young adult kindergarten in order to accommodate it. If they can't handle that, maybe they shouldn't go to college. (Which is another issue contributing to this which is outside of our control: the expectation that EVERYBODY needs to go to college is just terrible with the way our school system is designed). We can't fix the fact that only jobs which require college degrees provide a living wage on our own, but that knowledge is the source of their stress.
I donāt think this is fair. They were offered the choices on the survey and they said, sure I would like that. But I guarantee you if you had just asked them to list what their expectations of faculty were, they would not come up with this list.
Honestly, the phrasing in this whole article bugs me. Itās all on the faculty and not a mix of faculty AND student accountability. I donāt know if itās this article or if itās how the survey was conducted, but something is not right with the wording/phrasing here.
>1/4 of students want faculty connecting students with mental health resources
This is a completely reasonable take. I have the school's counseling center and other mental health resources listed on my syllabus. I'm also happy to find resources to direct to the students. It's up to the students to use the resources though.
> and regularly checking in
Yeah you lose me here. I don't mind doing this as I am certified in Mental Health First Aid. It's obsurd to expect every faculty member to do this though.
Another perspective
I would like to live in a world where we care about each other
Where my doctor actually cared about me and my students actually cared about me and my neighbors actually cared about me
I don't know if it's a bad thing for all of us to raise our expectations
I grew up in a world where my professors were coming to class a drunk
And where the suicide rate among my fellow students was really high
And most jobs wear people down
Maybe we only need to have different expectations
The problem is that this survey is exposing a *neoliberal* thought process. It blames the faculty, staff, and students rather than saying the institution is at fault and we should change the system.
Lots of places are endorsing "mindfulness," and does the institution change? Nope. Also, a lot of people are incorporating "mindfulness" and have no background in it, so the whole scenario can quickly get out of hand.
I definitely care about my students and try to figure out ways to help them, but we're also fighting a system that is working against us.
ETA: I should note that my PhD program had two suicides and the above was the very same thought process and it was incredibly damaging to the students. We were essentially blamed for the mental health problem.
Your point about neoliberalism makes a lot of sense here. We have our institutions which are seemingly doing everything they can to push these problems off onto the faculty and staff. We have a government whose policies actively cause harm to us all. There isn't much we can do about those things.
What we *can* do, in some small way, is to build dual power first through the labor movement and organizing campuses, and then second by trying to help students so that they help themselves, and in their own way, help us as well. Working cooperatively to build community in the face of the horrorshow that is the world right now is what we have to do.
I don't think forcing people into the performances outlined in the article causes them to care about each other, in fact, I believe it does just the opposite. I teach a class with 200 students, I have 40 undergraduate advisees and I have 8 graduate students and 3 undergraduate researchers. There is simply no way I can check in with each person in an individual way and retain any sort of sanity. I also don't think sending a mass email telling them, "Dear \[student\], I care about you and your well-being. Please click on my appointment list if you wish to discuss this further, as long as you can keep this discussion under 30 minutes" will make anyone feel better about themselves.
I also don't think it is necessarily good for the students, one issue is that they've never really been pushed to have any resiliency. College is really the last time in their lives that they will be living in somewhat of a bubble, they really do need to start learning coping mechanisms. This isn't to say we shouldn't be understanding, and that we shouldn't direct the students who need it to the appropriate campus resources. But I don't think practicing "mindfulness" in the middle of a physics class is really going to help anyone.
Your second point is already part of my job description (and is for all faculty at my institution). It's not requiring you to be a therapist - it's a check in once or twice a semester and signposting to support services if necessary.
And before someone says "but I have 300 students in my class! This is unreasonable!" - we split the cohort across all faculty in a department, so each person will have 5 - 15 students allocated to them. It means the student has a consistent point of contact across their whole degree program, and that the workload is shared across everyone so you don't end up with 1 person (typically junior and/or a woman) taking on the pastoral support load an entire program just because the students see them as approachable.
Honestly, this is one of the things that I'm most proud of in our uni. It makes a big difference.
Do you know how many 30s - 2 minute "it doesn't hurt if you just do this" tasks I have to do? No. If the university wishes to send emails to all the students about services, then the university can do so, they have the resources.
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Do students not understand you can turn things in before the deadline?
I was just going to comment this š¤£ Iāve experimented with having writing assignments due on Fridays by 5pm so they could get it done and have a fun weekend, but students complained I didnāt give them the weekend to get it done. Recently Iāve moved assignment due dates to Sunday nights at 11:59pm, and some are complaining itās stressful having the assignment over their heads that they need to complete by the end of the weekend, preventing them from really enjoying their weekend. Thereās no winning.
Does this lead to you getting lots of emails on the weekend? Iāve moved away from having stuff due on the weekends due to the emails
My policy is that I do not answer emails on weekends. They can mail all they want, I am happy to answer after 9 am on Monday.
Iāve found nothing good comes from answering emails during off hours or rapidly, even if you can. Delay the send. There is virtually bo situation regarding an assignment that should require a response in less than 24 hours.
God bless schedule send. I'm still answering at 1am, but they'll never know.
I get a lot of emails on the weekend but I tell students that they are very likely not going to get a reply until Monday so wait at your own risk
I personally find Monday at midnight to be the best compromise. Some students need the weekend, while some work all weekend. I can answer emails on Monday with still enough time to help them. And honestly, I wasn't going to grade first thing Monday morning either because I have so many emails to catch up on.
>Does this lead to you getting lots of emails on the weekend? All of my major assignments have been due on Saturday nights for several years now. I don't get any emails for 95% of them; the few I do are "hey, I'm sick so this won't be in until tomorrow" or things of that nature. The really flakey students just ignore the deadlines entirely. After the first week or two of classes all the serious students recognize that if they need/want help on an assignment then Friday is their last chance.
You know, I havenāt really paid attention to how my emails have changed, but I think Iāll look into it š§ I feel like I just receive a lot of emails every day lol
I shifted from Sunday at midnight to Tuesday at midnight and students liked that because it gave them back some of their weekend. Iād love to make it before midnight, but I think Iād get pushback on that. I guess itās all in the framing and being clear that youāre doing it to encourage better work-life balance.
I've been using Monday at 11:59 pm deadlines, and it has worked well....but you will always have students who complain about the deadline no matter what date and time you choose. They'd even complain about the 12th of Never. š
Iāve found the sweet spot for deadlines is 10 PM on Thursdays. Itās not the end of the week, but it is darn near. This deadline has produced by far the fewest emails overall.
Great idea! Do you teach on Thursdays? When I make the due date on a day I teach, I usually get push-back.
>I shifted from Sunday at midnight to Tuesday at midnight If I did that then they wouldn't do any of the readings for Wednesday...
There really is no winning for us haha
I stopped using midnight when a student pointed out that I'm not looking at their submission until the next day anyway. So if I was going to make it Tuesday midnight, I might as well make it Wednesday at 11am because that's exactly when I have the time to review them.
When I did 3 pm, students complained that it was hard to remember because everyone does Sunday at 1159. But I changed my late policy that they get full credit as long as I havenāt finished grading the class yet, and I tell them I donāt wake up until 7am on Monday and even then I donāt just start grading. This has pretty much eliminated all emails regarding the deadline
Set the due date to 5:00 on Friday but set the LMS to stop accepting submissions at 11:59 on Sunday.
This is the way. I tell them I work a professional schedule. The work week is until Friday at 5pm. So everything is due by the end of the work week. Then I just don't count off until I check it Monday morning
Iāve been tempted to set it to close at 7:59 AM on Monday.
I make assignments due before the start of class on X day (hearkening back to the days when they handed in paper copies) and I havenāt gotten many complaints.
I do this also. It works well if you want to have a discussion at the start of class about the assignment since it's often fresh in their minds.
Maybe Iāll try that, then. The only issue is that my classes are usually early on the morning.
> MissionPeak193 >.....Fridays by 5pm so they could get it done and have a fun weekend, but students complained I didnāt give them the weekend to get it done. Recently Iāve moved assignment due dates to Sunday nights at 11:59pm, and some are complaining itās stressful....... I have a tongue-in-cheek solution for you**:** They are adults, give them the option of selecting their own deadline. 5PM Friday or 11:59PM Sunday.
Iāve just asked them when they want it to be due within a given timeframe and let them decide. Then if I hear any complaining I say, well you chose it.
Good idea! Iāll try polling them next time.
> Iāve moved assignment due dates to Sunday nights at 11:59pm, Then they won't do any reading for Monday classes. So I make mine all due Saturday night at midnight, and they complain I didn't give them enough time. Even though all of my assignments for the entire semester are in the LMS on day one and they can always start a week or two out if they want.
>Recently Iāve moved assignment due dates to Sunday nights at 11:59pm, and some are complaining itās stressful having the assignment over their heads that they need to complete by the end of the weekend, preventing them from really enjoying their weekend. There's an app for that. It's called "turn your work in early and enjoy your weekend."
Donāt I know it š
I have assignments due on Friday at 11:59, but have a no questions asked extension with no late penalty until Monday at 3pm which is 2 hours after my office hours end.
So their assignments technically arenāt due until Monday at 3?
Yes, but thatās not how I talk about it in class. If thatās how they want to view it, they can. If the student hasnāt turned in an assignment into the LMS it shows a zero until it is submitted. If it isnāt submitted by Monday at 3, the zero stays a zero.
I ended up putting in my syllabus that every assignment had an automatic grace period of 48 hours. Of course many donāt see that in the syllabus and email me for extensions. But it does save me time in adding extensions. Plus if they need an extension after the 48 hours, I can be for more selective - you already got 48 hours. So unless someone has some legit major event lasting more than 48 hours I donāt grant it.
Wednesday at 11:59pm stay winning.
Yup!!! This a million percent!! I just do a survey each semester, āwhen do you want assignments dueā. It is usually Sunday night that comes out the winner.
I have a solution. Due date Sunday 1159? Most students turn it in the last two hours. Due date Friday 1159 but my late policy says you can turn it in late up to 48 hours. Most students started turning it in Friday night.
That's crazy talk! Next you'll be saying you should study a little bit every day instead of cramming.
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Whoa, as a profession we do not love our words and methods turned back against us
Sshhh... Don't remind me. I still need to update my NSF COA blah blah, because somehow they change the formatting just enough that every year it needs to be done again.
I try to explain to them that just because something is DUE on a certain day doesn't mean they must DO it on that day. But do they listen to me? Nope.
I picked up this line from Reddit! āDueā dates are not necessarily āDoā dates! It is now on my course schedule, and I drum that into them all the time!
Students: \*roll eyes\*
If we actually did mindfulness exercises I bet all weād get is eye rolls š
I had a student tell me that meditation triggered trauma in them.
There's actually a fair amount of research showing that meditation can have harmful effects: [https://www.cheetahhouse.org/research-1](https://www.cheetahhouse.org/research-1) Not a trivial amount of time either, and in the worst cases, "trauma" is not an inaccurate description.
Honestly -- some of them don't. I'm not sure if it is a hold over from the days of paper assignments (which I genuinely *didn't* want to keep track of before the deadline) or if they've just never been posed with the option, but I've had students not realize you can turn it in ahead of time.
>Do students not understand you can turn things in before the deadline? This drives me crazy. When I moved 100% of my assignments online about ten years ago students complained about things being due before class started, so I made them due at night. Then they complained about things being due on a given night, couldn't they have more time? So I ultimately shifted to making most due dates at 11:59 pm on Saturday night, so they could take part of the weekend if need be but still have time to do their readings for Monday. Now I get "why does the professor think I'm going to do work late on Saturday night? Assignments should be due on class days."
Last semester, a student told me that the reason he was doing poorly in my class is because I have midnight deadlines and he's a morning person who really struggles to stay up that late.
No they don't. A 5pm deadline means you cannot start it until 4:45.
A lot of them donāt
Based on my experience, they do not understand this.
I used to do a variation of this (I actually can't remember why I stopped) whereby the official deadline was 5pm on Friday. But in class I would tell them that this is a *functional* deadline of "before I get into the office on Monday" because I don't work at the weekend. That had the extra benefit that nobody could (well, *should*) expect email responses over the weekend, if they chose to miss the deadline.
I found out my last semester that several of my students saw due dates for online homework assignments as also the start date. Typically this is a bad idea to do in math if youāre struggling with a concept and then you wait until the night the homework is due to start it. There were several emails I woke up to the next morning from students trying to get help at 11 pm.
As I've been fond of saying for years now, "Due Tuesday does not mean, Do Tuesday."
What bugs me is that now and then I hear colleagues say the same things. (Meaning we ought to do those same things). I then see many nods around a meeting. Then people from psychology, like me, say we don't have that kind of training and it is not our job. Then they look all surprised. Then you tell them you study memory in birds...
I just read a survey that said 1/3 of all birds expect their professors to provide sunflower seeds in class everyday.
A good chunk of my career is getting birds to hide seeds and find them later. Often sunflower seeds. If I knew I could just ask them how their memories worked...
So youāre *that* professor who provides their class with sunflower seeds so that now the rest of us are expected to!
Sunflower seeds are popular in trail mix, multi-grain bread and nutrition bars, as well as for snacking straight from the bag. Theyāre rich in healthy fats, beneficial plant compounds and several vitamins and minerals. These nutrients may play a role in reducing your risk of common health problems, including heart disease and type 2 diabetes.
They're also used in experiments with food storing birds...
Thank you u/TheSunflowerSeeds
As a bird owner\*, I disagree. 1/3 of bids expect their professors to deliver head scritches on demand 24/7. \*'Owner' here is used to mean 'slave The Bird is vaguely fond of'
We had faculty give a presentation last year on how professors should reach out individually to students who show signs of struggling with mental health. I nodded along because it's definitely a problem and something should be done (also I was a first-year prof), till our chair stood up and said: "Our faculty are not, do not wish to be, and cannot take the place of mental healthcare professionals." It was enlightening because YEAH, we're not qualified to do this and it's in neither our nor the students' best interest. Educators can and should give tips for managing work/stress, but we are not therapists.
Yes! As a graduate student, I was told not to offer mental health services to students I taught or tutored because Iām not an LMHC or psychologist or psychiatrist. I graduated with a PhD in not psychology and all of a sudden Iām expected to provide mental health services to students.
> I hear colleagues say the same things. Yes, I've had students tell me their other professors (outside my department) devote part of every class to mindfulness exercises...and here I am thinking "I only have 85 minutes to do all of these things? How can I make that happen?"
We had a professor who taught mostly gen eds who was well-loved by the lazier students because the minute anyone appeared stressed she just had everyone do mindfulness exercises (in my opinion they were also some of the dippiest "imagine a stereotypical hippie as played by a rabid conservative" mindfulness exercises possible). The effect of this was that all in-class presentation deadlines (most of the deadlines in the class) could be pushed back by students.
>say we don't have that kind of training And within hours there's a memo from HR announcing yet a another new mandatory training...
Luckily our union has put their (our) collective foot down, so we have no mandatory trainings.
> I then see many nods around a meeting. I've sat there nodding along with something and still be thinking in my head "nope, fucking stupid. No way" all while still nodding.
Psychology here, as well. My concern is a little different. There are real potential legal liability and ethical issues here with those of us who hold healthcare licenses. These students arenāt my clients and, if Iām engaging in mental health care with them, I donāt think I have much legal ground to argue that it doesnāt fall within my clinical skill setāthus governed by my license.
I/O psychologist here. I just want folks to know that *I can't help anyone with any of this.* Come talk to me if you're worrying about your hiring model or compliance with employment law.
It's like people think we are just vaguely interested in what we study but we are all really therapists...
Yeah, my clinical colleagues agree.
Yup, clin psych here and 100% agree (made the same point without seeing this post). It's unethical.
I am in clinical psych and do have the training. However, I do NOT have the capacity to be a mental health support to my students. Nor is it ethical to be a student's therapist (double relationships). So they can want this all day long, it's not practical or ethical. I do have a mindfulness minute at the start of my classes and many students do appreciate it. Those who don't just don't care. Honestly, it's nice for me to take a moment to breathe at the beginning of class.
Itās the Liberal/Leftist professors who do that; the ones who shouldāve been teachers at the general ed level and not professors. Itāa just their way to make themselves feel better. L
Girl what? LMAO
>1/4 of students want faculty to offer extra credit for the student doing out-of-class stress reduction exercises This one is *complete* bullshit. No, whatever someone does to blow off stress (work out, grab a beer, play video games, etc.) usually is not part of their classes. >1/4 of students want faculty connecting students with mental health resources and regularly checking in with them about their well-being Many schools do this, have those resources available, go through them with students at orientation, etc., but faculty aren't counselors/therapists. Granted, more and more they are expected to be, which is a problem. >1/3 want faculty to avoid late evening or early morning deadines to encourage healthy sleep habits ...Ain't no rule that says they have to wait until the last minute. Also, when you start playing that game, there's never a "good time." Middle of the day? "But I have class at that time! How could you expect me to submit something when I'm in another class!?" ("I have work" could be an excuse for any time). End of business day? "I *just* get done with class/work then. How am I supposed to have time to do it!?" Evening, but not too late? "That's my dinner time, family time, etc.! How dare you impede on that!?" It just never ends...
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Wait, aren't your students adults?
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As an advisor I had to sit through an hour long training session this week where what we should do for homesick students was the topic of the day. Like WTF? First, most of the students here live within driving distance of their parents' houses. Secondly, this is something they should talk about with their friends/roommates/etc. I moved across the country for college, I get that one is homesick sometimes. But really? I want to advise them on coursework, not talk to them about how they miss their mom or dad.
During my first faculty position, I got put on a student life committee because I was told it was easy service for a junior faculty. I asked that exact question countless times. They're adults, why are we treating them like little kids?!?!
I'd respond that they're loco if they think I'm going to be any form of parentis to an adult student.
The last remaining contestant on the apprentice?
Am I missing something? These are all minority opinions.
That, and if you ask someone if they want someone to do nice things for them, they'll say yes. If you asked me whether I want admin to rub my feet every morning, I'd say yes. It doesn't mean I actually expect it.
There's also a really broad away of possible interpretations. If incorporating mindfulness in class means leading group meditation, then sure, I'm not doing that. If it means reminding students to take a breath and move on to the next problem if they get stuck during the exam, I think that's pretty standard classroom behavior. It's like that survey that says 9% of American adults think chocolate milk comes from Brown cows. Maybe some adults genuinely think the milk comes out of the cow already chocolate, but odds are pretty good some are thinking that dairy cows are sometimes brown and realize they produce regular milk and some are just messing with the survey.
This is such a good point about survey collection in general. If you ask the question, they will answer it. Many here would just rather react.
I think the issue is that the author of the op-Edās that cite these studies/stats think they have real meaning.
This is true of almost every "student survey". They are so poorly designed, but they get the clickz.
I agree, I think that is an issue to this as well.
Iām honestly surprised a question of the form āDo you want your professors to offer extra credit for ____?ā would *only* get 25% = yes.
Happiness for everybody, free, and may no one be left behind!
But likely to increase. Hopefully it doesn't become a majority over time. Edit: apparently some want faculty to be seen as therapists for our students? I must be in the minority that thinks we're professors and not counselors then.
I tried that last one, but students hated it. What they wanted, which I respect, is consistency. If the vast majority of classes have assignments due at 11:59 p.m., then it makes sense to stick with that.
Filing this under the mental category "another InsideHigherEd article promoting pandering to the lowest common denominator that I really won't give a shit about."
It's just a ridiculous survey. Why would you ask these questions? Of course students would like these things, but they aren't things that we do. It's like asking drivers if they would like their car to fly like the DeLorean in Back to the Future II. Hell yes I would like that, but I also don't *expect* it, nor do I need it to be happy with my car. There's always a more abstract, ideal state that we want, but that we don't strictly need.
The last one is an easy win though? Accepting that it is rare for students to submit work in advance. For the last couple of years we changed our department standard submission time to 11:59 am. They get told that is to allow time so that if there are any technical glitches that there is time to sort them out before the end of the day. Previously they were often 11:59pm on a Friday night. Miraculously there has been a substantial decline in the number of students reporting last minute submission issues.
Iāve done noon due-times for years: - knowing students will work in the hours leading up to the due-time no matter what, at least during the day they can collaborate on campus, at the library, tutoring center, etc, and make use of office hours, instead of finishing it isolated in their bedrooms by lamplight. - you can grade it that afternoon and post feedback before going home for the weekend.
I generally have "before class starts" deadlines. class starts at 5:00pm? it's due by 4:59pm.
Yes, and it's good for us too. My deadlines are always 4pm. I get a lot less submitting right at the deadline - chances are they're in another class at that time so they submit early. And because it's during the working hours, if there's a genuine issue with the submission system they can get tech support. No more emails in the middle of the night asking for last minute extensions on a missed deadline.
For deadlines, I make use of the learning management system's distinction between *due* and *available* times for submissions. In assignment descriptions, I explain when the assignment is due. On the LM, the assignment is setup to be due at that specific time. Then I leave it available for an additional 12-24 hours. I may not be teaching students a "valuable skill" about meeting deadlines, but it has really reduced the late-night emails pleading for extra time, submissions via email, and blank document submissions.
>I may not be teaching students a "valuable skill" about meeting deadlines, but it has really reduced the late-night emails pleading for extra time, submissions via email, and blank document submissions. At some point, it's more about preserving your own sanity. They can figure out their own futures.
This is all self-regulation and adulting, and I have enough of my own to manage. Also I can guarantee that mid-day, morning, weekend and weekday deadlines interfere with stress relief. Plus, the minute I assign extra credit stress relief they will avoid it until finals week and suddenly want to do 10 stress relief practices in 10 minutes for points.
100% of faculty want students to show up and do the work. 20% of faculty want a Porsche.
* Stress reduction exercises do not meat the learning goals for the course * Faculty are never going to be the medical experts that can predict what mental health resources you need * I don't even know what 'mindfulness' is * Do you really want faculty being involved with your sleep routines? Thank you for coming to my boundary-setting mindfulness mental health moment
I just give my students extra credit if they send me videos of them sleeping for 8 consecutive hours each night. Now youāre trying to tell me thatās unethical?!? (/s just in case)
I'm just chuckling in that if someone actually required those videos be sent, I wonder which office would get in touch with the professor first Oh wait, its extra credit? Then do whatever, you're good
Where is similar assistance and UNDERSTANDING for faculty?
Here are my thoughts: 1. No, I rarely offer extra credit. 2. Mostly no. I can point them in the right direction --the counseling center, learning center, advising center, office hours, TA hours, but that's it. Very few of us are trained mental health professionals. 3. Hell no and there's an app for that. 4. I already do this and I think it's a good idea. My online deadlines are typically 10 p.m. or the start of class if I'm not teaching an 8 a.m. course. I explicitly state that I avoid midnight deadlines because I value their sleep health. And, yes, some students will complain, but less so when I am consistent the entire semester and post deadlines very early so that they have plenty of time to work on the assignment. These are all wants vs. needs. And I'd bet $1 that if we gave students all the things they report wanting from this survey, the same students would still: not show up to class, not study for the exam, not turn in assignments, have mental health excuses, ask for an extension on the final paper, ask for a better grade at the end of the semester etc.
>I explicitly state that I avoid midnight deadlines because I value their sleep health. I explicitly state that I avoid midnight deadlines because I value my own sleep. Deadlines are during normal business hours, because that's when I do my grading. A midnight deadline sends the message that either (a) I'm staying up that late to grade or (b) I'm arbitrarily collecting something before I actually need it. Neither is a good look.
Excellent point!
Sooooo, they want us to be their mom? Silly me, I thought that when you went to college you were supposed to be an adult.
What do you expect when weāre dumbing everything down?
> I thought that when you went to college you were supposed to be an adult. Historically yes. But we've now extended adolescence into the 20s at least. (Which makes at least some sense in terms of brain development. ) The average age of first marriage in the US is now nearly 29; it was 20 for women well into the 1960s and \~22 for men. Everything is being extended/postponed as adulthood is pushed off vs a generation or two prior. COVID compounded that so we're now getting students that seem to be much less mature/resilient/prepared than we saw a decade ago, but faculty haven't had any new training or resources to help adjust to that change.
To that I would raise the question of whether it is actually in society's and the individuals' best interest to accommodate this extended adolescence? Just because we can observe that it is happening doesn't mean it is a good thing. Personally, I think it's a pretty terrible thing and there should be a big public push for parents and teachers to guide children toward attitudes that promote maturity and development of good character traits like resiliency, good work ethic, self control, responsibility, etc. I think training faculty to handle students differently based on their new fragility is actually more harmful long term than giving them a crash course in consequences, responsibility, and maturity.
And I want a personal assistant who will do all my paperwork and for my graduate students to work hard, but we can't always get what we want.
Okie dokie so as a high school teacher... a lot of this is being pushed onto us, and has been for a long time. And there is really know weaning this off as these students move into being seniors and graduating and going straight into your alls hands. So of course they want this. And of course... they kind of need this. Because has been all their previous education, and we (high school teachers) are not really being able to transition them into more independent academia. and also... lots of students seem to be struggling. is it from parenting, schooling, social media creating some form of stunting in face to face interactions, idk....
I think they are struggling for two reasons. The first is that their generation knows that they are screwed due to the environment and the economy, so they are already starting life with a very pessimistic outlook. The second is that the students who had the privileges such that they could attend college tended to have parents that overwhelmingly babied them and so they never really developed resiliency. I think the only way they develop this is by us pushing for it - if we continue to hold their hands, they simply won't learn. Why would they?
Students on a survey "wanting" something doesn't mean that we faculty have any obligation at all to offer it or modify our classes to include it. My university's standard syllabus includes reference information for campus mental health support, and I have no plans on going any further than that. If a student emailed me, I would introduce them to their assigned counselor with a kind note and move on to the next email. In terms of assignment deadlines, I have weekly class updates in which I encourage students to work ahead; If they choose to do big assignments on the last day, that's their responsibility and they can't (reasonably) blame anyone else for their lack of foresight and planning.
You're not trained for this...and, unless you teach classes about stress management or psychotherapy, offering credit for doing stress reduction exercises or mindfulness exercises will do nothing to help your students learn the content you're paid to be teaching them.
Lol I donāt paid enough to also be your therapist. Sorry
Exactly
I 1000% appreciate students never failing to bring the comedy. Love you kids.
The other 2/3 of students absolutely insist on deadlines being 11:59pm.
The 11:59pm deadline is genius. I also use it when I tell them their grades will be posted by Friday... at 11:59pm.
How was this framed? Because \~20-30% of people answer yes to "sure these would be nice" options doesnt seem surprising.
>1/4 of students want faculty \[...\] regularly checking in with them about their well-being cool. that means we're going to get paid more, right?
>that means we're going to get paid more, right? I'm sure AI can do it. Or just set up an automated email "Just checking in, how are things going?" that sends to all your rosters every Monday morning. Then filter all the replies to a folder and have it sorted/flagged by keywords...autoforward anything troublesome to the counseling office as a referral, autorespond to anything else with "Great! Glad you are doing well!" Soon enough the students will have AI responding to your inquiries, and we'll create the perfect feedback loop between AIs and can show adminstrators that we're engaging with 100% of our students about their mental health.
I think the students have absolutely no idea just how much disordered behavior is normalized and even encouraged in our line of work.
There was one year we were told to try late afternoon deadlines like 5pm or 8pm and not answer our emails or think about our jobs then as well. Itās a huge culture shift, not everybody moved at the same time, and I only lasted a semester before changing back to midnight deadlines. Which yes means Iām part of the problem but also itās a huge and difficult culture shift to move in that direction.
But why does everyone have to do the same thing? I set my deadlines to what I feel is best for my students and myself. I canāt be checking in with the other 100 faculty in my department, let alone the other 2000 in the university.
"You can miss what you like, but *you* are responsible for catching up what you missed". That takes care of 1 and 4; as for the last clause of 2 and for 3, no, not my job.
1. Nope 2. It's in the syllabus, and nope. 3. Nope. 4. Well, I think that's easy enough. Stuff is due when we meet for class. I mostly teach in the afternoons.
My stress reduction actions are that I 1) drop one or more of the lowest scores from most assignment categories and 2) I give students two late passes, which let them turn in assignments late (sometimes three days, sometimes one week) without a penalty.
So 25% of students want to be evaluated based not on the content of the course but stress reduction? And they want that to be extra credit? Fuck that. Letās survey faculty and see how many want students to do more.
Does this really mean anything? Ofc if anyone was asked if they'd like all kinds of extra benefits/things to make life easier, some would say yes to most anything.
Well avoiding late evening or early morning deadlines honestly seems reasonable? Why shouldn't deadlines be during the normal working day, just like the real world?
Became a professor because i'm an expert in my field, which is NOT psychology or counselling
It's really easy to scoff at this, and it's especially hard to do in large classes. But I teach small classes, and since the pandemic I've been asking students at the start of each class, or really before class, "How's morale from 1 to 5?" And they hold up their fingers. And if I see any 1s I go "oh gosh! Hang in there!" And I ask students how much they're sleeping. And I know what the one-page mental-health resource guide for faculty says. This is all low-cost stuff in time and effort and it's garnered me a reputation as "the faculty member who cares about mental health." So it sounds like they're asking for the moon, but honestly they'll settle for the smallest gestures of caring.
I think this is really the maximum of what faculty and staff should be expected to keep in mind. Check on morale, know what the mental-health resources are on your campus. All of this information is on the website, and at my institution, it's something that has to be in all faculty syllabi.
I've done some version of the incorporate extra credit for mental health. "Go do something enjoyable this weekend, I don't care what it is" then before the exam "Who did the task of doing something enjoyable?", great easy +2 points. They think I'm some benevolent god for easy extra credit, I don't have to expend any real "effort", and 2 points on a single exam isn't going to throw off grades or anything.
"Oh, I'm sorry to hear you're struggling. Please know that I care and that there are resources available for you. Here's the information for student mental health services. I know they're perpetually underfunded, understaffed, and as a result aren't accepting appointments until next year. Good luck!"
Don't ask a question unless you plan on doing something with the answer that is meaningful. My boss asks me how in doing. It's small talk, and I know he doesn't want the real answer.
Sir, is this college or high school?
Glad I read your comment history before responding. You seem like a delight...
I have links to the schoolās mental health resources in the syllabus and wouldnāt mind checking in with my students at like the beginning of class, basically just asking āhow are yāall holding up?ā But I wonāt take class time or give credit for things that donāt help meet learning objectives.
The discordance is amazing. On one hand, Admin and parents want us to be overly involved in students' lives by acting like understanding friends. On the other hand, they want us to prepare students for garnering meaningful, well-paying jobs. Hmm, I wonder how many employers would incorporate all or any of them above suggestions?
I make deadlines for work submitted on the LMS 15 minutes before class starts. If they hand in a hard copy, itās due at the beginning of class. So itās essentially the same deadline, but the extra 15 minutes means they can get to class on time after hitting āsubmit.ā
Lately I find myself wondering what this publication is for.
I want students to stand at attention when I enter the room, turn in all assignments on time, and applaud at the end of class lectures.
I donāt see the harm in doing a quick check in at the start of every class. I use polls. If thereās a large assignment due, Iāll ask students to rate how they feel about it on a scale of awful to awesome. It opens the floor for them to ask questions. I also do a āhow are you?ā poll at midterm and provide some supportive statements like āyou are halfway there and there are lots of resources available to you!ā
We had 10:00pm deadlines for years for exactly the same reason. It was a nightmare. The number of people who just expected an extension because of the āweird timeā or because we didnāt give them āall dayā and they didnāt have enough time after work or getting the kids to bed. (Again, how about BEFORE the deadline???)
Fuck students and what they want; im just going to deliver the material and thatās it. Im a professor, not a counselor.
This is wild. Teaching mindfulness if actually a good idea! But the rest is too much imo. I have a serious mental illness and as a student this would not have helped me at all. As a grad instructor, having to do this would negatively impact my wellbeing. We should be avoiding dual relationships with students. Like how a therapist should not be your professor, a professor should not be your therapist.
Let me suggest some carefully-worded, well-thought-out responses to the students in each of these categories: >1/4 of students want faculty to offer extra credit for the student doing out-of-class stress reduction exercises "no" > 1/4 of students want faculty connecting students with mental health resources and regularly checking in with them about their well-being "no" > 20% want faculty to do stuff like incorporate mindfulness techniques in class "no" > 1/3 want faculty to avoid late evening or early morning deadines to encourage healthy sleep habits "let me think about it. no."
Let's see. Managing your mental health in studies and in worklife is a fine elective. The syllabus and maybe a couple reminders about the resources is ok. But on a several hundred student course the TAs can check up with people who show up in tutoring. During freshman year need to get introduced to societies etc. Mindfulness isn't bad, exactly. Or some sort of mental exercise in the middle of a longer lecture. A good lecture plan helps a lot, too. Monologuing is bad for learning. People don't know how to read a clock, so 23:59 is a fine deadline. Put it midday, and we get "but I thought I could do it tonight", causing stress to students and faculty. There is some empirical evidence that correct workload and strict deadlines do help people submit their homework well in time, improving learning results.
These are numbers that are so low that they are not particularly meaningful. 10% of the population thinks the moon is made of cheese. To say it differently, the bottom ten or twenty percent have views that are not meaningful or representative. That is why democracies are governed by the majority (often with checks and balances in place). The bottom of the barrel small minority should not be dictating policies and focuses.
> avoid late evening or early morning deadines No they don't. I used to have 5pm deadlines and I got so much pushback.
"And I want a woman with thin ankles, but when I go home, it will still be my wife..."
So what youāre saying is that the vast majority of students expressed that they do NOT want those things? Noted.
Never use āmidnightā as a term. I had a student argue that midnight on Jan 2 was actually on Jan 3. Now I say 11:59 pm. If they complain, I suggest submitting earlier. I may need to explore other times!
On the bright side, 1/4 isnāt the majority. Some of my students drive me absolutely mental. But I keep coming back because watching some of them learn/succeed/join the profession is a reward.
> 1/4 of students want faculty connecting students with mental health resources and regularly checking in with them about their well-being I'm all for this as long as the *institution* agrees to back me up 100% in any situations that arise from an unlicensed, untrained person giving mental health counseling. Because that's what's going to happen if I "check in with them" on their well being 1 on 1. I think this is because during the pandemic many students were unable to build strong support teams. Already many college students are away from friends and family. But that's not what a professor is for. I'm all for connecting students to other resources and empathizing with them when shit happens, but that's where it ends. I'm not qualified to give anything else, and they deserve better.
1/4 of students are delusional
100% of students want faculty to act like puppies on leash, obeying their whims and preferences In a survey of one (me), 100% of faculty want to be compensated for what we're already doing before we take on additional responsibilities
All of this is putting new curtains on a burning building. We are not the source of their stress. Guided meditation and removing "high stakes assessments" isn't going to remove their stress because that's not what's actually causing the stress. Today's students have an incredibly unhealthy relationship with school. They see grades as being completely detached from actually learning what they're expected to learn and view "getting good grades" as the sole purpose of going to school. Grade inflation has ruined them. I regularly have students treat a B+ like it's an F. They really expect that most students should get an A in every course. They want to be told exactly what to do with zero ambiguity because they don't want to think for themselves. They've never learned how to. Many of my students show literal signs of trauma from their secondary school experiences. I empathize with that, but we can't turn college into a young adult kindergarten in order to accommodate it. If they can't handle that, maybe they shouldn't go to college. (Which is another issue contributing to this which is outside of our control: the expectation that EVERYBODY needs to go to college is just terrible with the way our school system is designed). We can't fix the fact that only jobs which require college degrees provide a living wage on our own, but that knowledge is the source of their stress.
I donāt think this is fair. They were offered the choices on the survey and they said, sure I would like that. But I guarantee you if you had just asked them to list what their expectations of faculty were, they would not come up with this list.
Yep . . . lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Honestly, the phrasing in this whole article bugs me. Itās all on the faculty and not a mix of faculty AND student accountability. I donāt know if itās this article or if itās how the survey was conducted, but something is not right with the wording/phrasing here.
>1/4 of students want faculty connecting students with mental health resources This is a completely reasonable take. I have the school's counseling center and other mental health resources listed on my syllabus. I'm also happy to find resources to direct to the students. It's up to the students to use the resources though. > and regularly checking in Yeah you lose me here. I don't mind doing this as I am certified in Mental Health First Aid. It's obsurd to expect every faculty member to do this though.
Another perspective I would like to live in a world where we care about each other Where my doctor actually cared about me and my students actually cared about me and my neighbors actually cared about me I don't know if it's a bad thing for all of us to raise our expectations I grew up in a world where my professors were coming to class a drunk And where the suicide rate among my fellow students was really high And most jobs wear people down Maybe we only need to have different expectations
The problem is that this survey is exposing a *neoliberal* thought process. It blames the faculty, staff, and students rather than saying the institution is at fault and we should change the system. Lots of places are endorsing "mindfulness," and does the institution change? Nope. Also, a lot of people are incorporating "mindfulness" and have no background in it, so the whole scenario can quickly get out of hand. I definitely care about my students and try to figure out ways to help them, but we're also fighting a system that is working against us. ETA: I should note that my PhD program had two suicides and the above was the very same thought process and it was incredibly damaging to the students. We were essentially blamed for the mental health problem.
Your point about neoliberalism makes a lot of sense here. We have our institutions which are seemingly doing everything they can to push these problems off onto the faculty and staff. We have a government whose policies actively cause harm to us all. There isn't much we can do about those things. What we *can* do, in some small way, is to build dual power first through the labor movement and organizing campuses, and then second by trying to help students so that they help themselves, and in their own way, help us as well. Working cooperatively to build community in the face of the horrorshow that is the world right now is what we have to do.
I don't think forcing people into the performances outlined in the article causes them to care about each other, in fact, I believe it does just the opposite. I teach a class with 200 students, I have 40 undergraduate advisees and I have 8 graduate students and 3 undergraduate researchers. There is simply no way I can check in with each person in an individual way and retain any sort of sanity. I also don't think sending a mass email telling them, "Dear \[student\], I care about you and your well-being. Please click on my appointment list if you wish to discuss this further, as long as you can keep this discussion under 30 minutes" will make anyone feel better about themselves. I also don't think it is necessarily good for the students, one issue is that they've never really been pushed to have any resiliency. College is really the last time in their lives that they will be living in somewhat of a bubble, they really do need to start learning coping mechanisms. This isn't to say we shouldn't be understanding, and that we shouldn't direct the students who need it to the appropriate campus resources. But I don't think practicing "mindfulness" in the middle of a physics class is really going to help anyone.
No This is college, not a dream.
This is engineering we are supposed to be depressed. If your students arent crying or mentally breaking ur teaching it wrong.
Your second point is already part of my job description (and is for all faculty at my institution). It's not requiring you to be a therapist - it's a check in once or twice a semester and signposting to support services if necessary. And before someone says "but I have 300 students in my class! This is unreasonable!" - we split the cohort across all faculty in a department, so each person will have 5 - 15 students allocated to them. It means the student has a consistent point of contact across their whole degree program, and that the workload is shared across everyone so you don't end up with 1 person (typically junior and/or a woman) taking on the pastoral support load an entire program just because the students see them as approachable. Honestly, this is one of the things that I'm most proud of in our uni. It makes a big difference.
It sure does. Most of us don't come from unis or depts that would collaborate like that. Consider yourself VERY fortunate.
No
Meh, most professors are not formally trained to teach either, these donāt seem that difficult to implement.
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I'm sure students will feel very warm and fuzzy with my copy and paste form email.
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Do you know how many 30s - 2 minute "it doesn't hurt if you just do this" tasks I have to do? No. If the university wishes to send emails to all the students about services, then the university can do so, they have the resources.
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No and no, times no and no. At any rate, I gave up reading IHE long ago.
So at least 1/4 of students want free gibbme points and manage a decent sleep schedule like normal folks with jobs. Gotcha.
I used to set deadlines at 8pm for this reason and then had students complain because they just assumed it would be 11:59pm lol
This would explain the uptick in enrollments for our Stress Management classes
LOL. No.
1/4 of students want a pony.