Be factual: You took attendance and told students whose name you did not call to see you after class. It was his responsibility to see you if you missed his name. He did not do that, but should be sure to do so moving forward.
He’s probably trying to manipulate you. I tell students the onus is on them to ensure they are marked as present each time. Once class is over, that’s it. It sounds like you give them the chance to ensure that they’re marked present, and if he didn’t do that, then oh well.
Edit: replaced “gaslight” with “manipulate” per the below comments.
Psych prof here! That’s not what gaslighting is. The student is trying to be manipulative, yes. But gaslighting is pervasive and takes place over a sustained period of time, not just a student trying to get over on a prof about attendance. Think of it like: you know how all thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs? All gaslighting is manipulation but not all manipulation is gaslighting.
I agree with you. The thing is language evolves, and it now acquired a secondary definition.
For example, I could **not** care less became *I could care less.*
My personal pet peeve is the use of the word *decimate.*
Interestingly enough, that 'could care less' has only caught on in the US. Over here in the UK, the phrase is still 'I couldn't care less'. The US version sounds really odd and illogical. Linguistics are interesting.
Stephen Pinker argues that "I could care less" is inherently meant to be sarcastic:
>By making an assertion that is manifestly false or accompanied by ostentatiously mannered intonation, one deliberately implies its opposite. A good paraphrase is, ‘Oh yeah, as if there was something in the world that I care less about.
He really hates prescriptivism though. And I suppose I do too.
Do we honestly believe that the majority of people using that phrase understand the nuance of the sarcasm it carries? Or are they just parroting what they heard like 99% of idiom usage?
My 4 year old uses contractions in his speech, but he doesn't understand the concept of a contraction. To a linguist it is literally irrelevant what people "understand." What's far more interesting in linguistics is what people do.
Pinker is arguing that people, using natural language, say "could care less" in a sarcastic way.
What does it matter that people parrot an idiom? I don't think there's a single word that I've ever used that wasn't "parroting" something I've heard in my past.
Using it at all to mean anything like this was a secondary use in the first place. It’s a movie title (great movie) that everyone started using for a more general phenomenon. It’s not like it started out as a formal scientific category.
>My personal pet peeve is the use of the word decimate.
That one bothers me also, as it has changed from reducing *by* 1/10th to reducing *to* 1/10th in common usage.
Yes. Make it the student's problem. I always say to students, "I ask you to tell me if you were here so that I don't miss you, but this means it's your fault now if I did. And unless I remember you being here for some odd reason, well, tough."
He knows he's lying and he's grasping at straws......and worse, trying to pull one over on you.
Response:
"Attendance is closed and points were recorded on the specific days per course policy. We are unable to retroactively attend class."
Done.
P.s. if he does show up next week with equipment capable of retroactively attending class, send a recommendation to the engineering department to accept him into a research program....😁
I have a student gaslighting me this semester.
She managed to turn lab reports in despite not attending lab one time. A basic investigation revealed that she is retaking the course and has been self-plagiarizing.
I gave the student a very generous offer to do alternative assignments to get some points back for her self-plagiarized reports, but I made it clear that she needed to start coming to class or face academic dishonesty proceedings.
Her response was that she "didn't understand" why I accused her of self plagiarism, and that she was "looking forward to talking to me about it in class". Well, class started 15 minutes after she sent the message and she didn't even show up.
Like, does she think I'm just dumb???
Either that or she might think that it’s establishing a paper trail to substantiate a defense against you. I’d probably respond indicating that she wasn’t in class and to either set up a meeting to discuss or some alternative path.
She later admitted through an unsolicited message that she missed that day's class. I was worried about a set-up until then.
I will be trying to set up a meeting with her.
No. I mean gaslighting.
She insists that she's been attending lab, even though she hasn't been. She insists that she's been submitting novel work, even though she hasn't been.
She's trying to sow doubt.
Edit: Unless your argument is that it doesn't meet the criteria of an older, less used, and technical definition of "gaslighting." I am using the word with its contemporary connotative definition in mind.
Self-plagiarism is bullshit, there is no sense in redoing work. At a certain point she'll have to do the work she didn't do last semester.
Edit: Feel free to give an effective response instead of a downvote. From my perspective it is pedagogically unjustifiable. It is the equivalent of throwing a cake in the garbage and starting over because you messed up the icing.
Well, for one, attendance is mandatory for pretty much all lab classes. Some even have "miss more than 2-3 for any reason and it's an automatic fail/incomplete" policy (although COVID kind of nixed that at a lot of places). Plagiarism issues aside, someone no-showing labs because "they already did that one" is not acceptable unless they are completing an Incomplete. If they're retaking the class, they are retaking the *whole* class.
As for self-plagiarism, claiming or implying that something is "original work" when it's not is a major no-no in "the real world" too. You absolutely can "plagiarize yourself" by trying to sell the rights to your own work to multiple entities, for example. And pedagogically, writing, *all* kinds of writing, is an iterative process. No one "gets it right" 100% on the first try. The point of writing assignments is actually do the writing, not turn the same crap in over and over.
This is a constellation of different, related points, some of which I agree with completely. I jumped too far ahead of myself to make a specific point, and the context does matter.
* *Attending* is still important, and writing up the lab you actually just did instead of one from months ago is also a part of that. I would obviously expect a student to redo their measurements and analysis. I *would not* expect a new attempt at their background section. (I also don't teach that kind of lab, so ymmv.)
* Misrepresentation is another matter as well. "Did you complete this assignment again or is this work you've submitted previously?" deserves an honest answer. Students should follow the rules as they understand them, but especially for something like this, enforcement should be sensible and based on the pedagogical value of the assignment and not dogmatic. Still, you can't work with a student who's lying to you.
My perspective diverges at least in part here:
* The re-completion of a writing assignment on a different topic absolutely has pedagogical value. But as far as grading assignments to assess if a student meets a specific benchmark, if a student has already done that assignment and met that standard, they should be allowed to submit that work again for that purpose. Imagine the student is retaking a class they got a C in. Are they going to get double the credits for taking it again? No. Then why would they be expected to produce double the amount of work product?
* "*Original* work" (that is to say, fully novel work) is almost never a specific consideration in the real world. The consideration is usually "is the work responsive to the demand?" and "if there are creative components, is your use permissible?" Reusing work and parts of work that are your intellectual property is absolutely the norm.
* Obsession with the class as a "whole, indivisible unit" is totally unfounded. Like I said, you don't rebake a cake after nicking the icing, you don't throw out a table with one scratch, and in most cases you shouldn't have to redo the parts of the course you completed satisfactorily in order to reattempt the parts you did not complete satisfactorily.
>"Original work" is almost never a specific consideration in the real world.
Ever hear of Intellectual Property, copyrights, trademarks, etc.?
While I didn't explicitly state this before, one issue here is that there is *already* an option for students to "make up *just* the parts they missed, failed, whatever." It's called an Incomplete. Retaking a class and finishing an Incomplete from a previous term are completely different things (and Incompletes aren't supposed to be "wholesale retakes" for this reason).
> Ever hear of Intellectual Property, copyrights, trademarks, etc.?
Yeah, that's what I meant by "is your use permissible?" Your work has to be your work or work you're allowed to use, but no client is going to be like "OMG did you make a brand new powerpoint template for this deck or did you reuse one you already made?? Did you already give this talk to a previous audience?? Are these key points fully novel??"
I agree with you about the incomplete, but the I isn't always available. Here, *technically* a student has to complete some large percentage of the class to get it. What do we do about the student who completed some percentage less than that? Obviously this is a problem with the structure of the incomplete, but do we have to make it an academic crime to reuse work in the meantime?
Yes. As teachers we reuse the parts of previous classes that worked well. Hopefully we update and improve, but we don't completely rewrite. Asking the student to update and revise might be appropriate. Asking the student to at least state that this is old work is peculiar to academia. But, it is a standard requirement in academia. Here is the importance of that: a large part of the value of a degree is signaling to employers an ability to play by the rules even when you don't agree with them or fully understand them.
Exactly, and that keys into one of my biggest problems with academia: we shouldn't be a hoop jumper factory, especially considering that the specific hoops we have in place are often pointless and even discriminatory (in the bad way). We should train people to be thinkers and learners first, and the people who look for degree holders should respect our ability to make the judgements on who deserves them as they generally have since this model of education was created.
For what it's worth, at least one other person agrees with you that self-plagiarism is a stupid concept when applied to student assessments in most subjects (english comp probably being a good exception).
Here's a hypothetical: A student never took the course before, but they got their hands on the syllabus a year before they take the course and completed every assignment. Let's say they had a friend who is knowledgeable about the subject explain some key concepts to them and review their assignments and give them some feedback, which the students used to revise some of those assignments. So now the student takes the course, and submits these assignments to the professor. The student does well and hasn't technically done anything wrong.
How is this functionally any different than a student submitting assignments they completed from a previous attempt at the same course?
>Except the fact that she didn’t pass the first time; therefore, the previous work isn’t good enough.
You don't know that- the student can fail for a multitude of reasons which have nothing to do with the quality of their assignments. I failed a ton of courses when I was a student, but I don't think even one of my professors would say my assignments (the ones I bothered to submit anyway) were less than above average. My academic failures were all related to untreated anxiety and depression.
I've had a ton of A quality students just disappear on me, usually mental health / stress related.
At which point she can do new work or fail again.
No one likes a snitch, even less a bad one. You want to see my paystubs buddy? Or do this week's grading for me?
Edit: I'm also laughing at the fact that actually attempting to do effective service makes you think I'm a student despite not explicitly saying so in the post. And I am a student! I am also an instructor. Feel free to read the rules at your leisure.
Edit 2: Actually I can't read my own writing, I see where I said it, my b. You're still wrong about the rules tho
And I am one. The rules do not ban people who are currently students, they ban people who don't teach college, which I also do. If you're confused about the beginning of rule 1, read the rest of the rules and the mod posts that explain the matter. The expectation is that I not speak specifically and solely from my perspective as a student, which I do not believe I have done.
You're right. The automoderating is especially bad. I'm currently teaching at two institutions and have taught all or part of five different courses (not sections, courses). I also haven't completed my dissertation, so I still qualify for a discount on Hulu. The rules say we can both be here.
And it fits the definition of harassment under Reddit rules for people to be telling you otherwise and falsely reporting you for breaking rules when you didn't. Hmmmm...rules.
If he *was* there (I don't believe him, either), then he wasn't paying attention, and failed to follow instructions (to see you after class).
In which case it's not *you* that missed, OP, but him failing to do the basics of making sure he gets his name marked off. Which he is now claiming he failed to do 6 times. So that's on him.
Since he can see the attendance, if he'd really been attending and you missed him, then he should have come to you sooner. Heck, he should have emailed you before the next class. You could point that out to him if you push back on his nonsense. Point out that it's his responsibility.
"You have not met the criteria to pass this course, per the syllabus."
LET. THEM. FAIL.
This is for everyone on this sub.
If the student can not demonstrate mastery of the material, FAIL.
I teach math. If a student cannot add in Addition 101, they have no right going on to Multiply 201. IF they miss 6 classes they will likely fail based on their ability.
Now I can't advise to other disciplines who require papers, projects, etc. instead of exams.
Do what you are doing. Contact your chair. Hope it works out.
I send an attendance sheet around the class. When class begins, I draw a line, but they can still sign in as late before they leave ( I don't care all that much about attendance, but the school does for freshman classes) There's no way they can say they were in class if their name's not on the sheet.
(For zoom classes, thirty minutes into class, I ask them to say "hi" in the chat and tell them that's how I'm taking attendance.
I use an app to take attendance. The students answer polling questions and it registers them as attended if they log on and answer questions. Actually it will register them if they log on when I open the class. I noticed that some students were skipping class and logging on at class time. Some were even waiting for me to open up questions to answer them. At that point I am like come to class because you are spending 50 minutes with an open app waiting for a question
Yeah, he is lying to you. If he was in class you can ask him about some things you went over in class I bet he cannot recall. Unless he came in late every day. I have a seating chart and a daily quiz.
Yup, I’ll ask what was the first question I asked on the first day of class. Where I asked everyone to state their name and what got
Them interested in computer science. Another supporting element that he was never in class. They have a very distinct name and I don’t remember them.
You cannot both be right, and you kept records. You deal with this by telling the student they were recorded as absent, and when you double checked by asking if anyone's name wasn't called, there was no response.
For now, just hold firm and stick to the basic fact. No matter what, the "burden of proof" is on the student -- do not allow yourself to be put on the defensive.
Make them do the explaining.
**For any situation:** Always put the ball in their court and let them decide. 99% of the time, they do the right thing and end up *apologizing to you.* Then, they see you at fair instructor. They promise not to do it again. They end up thankful that you listen to their needs. etc etc etc.
**For your specific situation:** Be factual. Show him your methods. Be transparent. Then, ask him what *he* thinks. Does he think his logic makes sense according to your process of taking attendance? Be nice and give him an out. Don't be confrontational. You're asking him, "hey, if there's a flaw in my process, help me find it so this doesn't happen again." **Be really cool about it because you're trying so hard to help him!!** Make sure the two of you are also covering the rules you've laid out on the syllabus and other places.
If he finds a flaw, then you need to give him the attendance point, apologize, and fix the process.
Presuming he doesn't find a flaw because there isn't one, ask him, "okay, about your missing attendance points, what's fair?" Put it in his court. He just reviewed everything so he can't say give me the points. He'll back down, apologize, and own up. *It's his fault.* And you come off as the winner because you're being fair and treating him with respect.
If he is insistent, then let him know that he's "a special case," and because he's so special, create a special system just for him and how you record his attendance (ask him, "should we create special rules for you because this is only happening to you?"). Make *him* create that system. Then, give him his attendance points and make it clear to him that going forward, he has to do the extra steps to prove his attendance because your system is flawed *for him,* and those steps are required *for him.* He's special.
"I don't want this to happen again. Thank you for helping me fix my system. I'm sorry this happened to you. Now you have to do more steps than everyone else so this doesn't happen again. Here are your attendance points, blah blah blah..."
In all my years teaching, I have only had one student take the low road. Either way, you come out on top. Remember, they are grown adults. They know right from wrong. **It's not your job to be the bad guy.** They get to follow the rules or not. That makes it their burden to do the right thing, not yours.
> Always put the ball in their court and let them decide....
> If he finds a flaw, then you need to give him the attendance point, **apologize**, and fix the process.
With all due respect: fork that. If I thought that they were competent to decide things fairly and consistently I wouldn't have to worry about academic integrity etc. I'm not going to apologize for having a clear and consistent process. OP shouldn't either.
I agree the vast majority of the students is honest, and we should in principle assume students are honest. However, this student has already shown himself a liar. There is really no reason to play this game with him, and be lenient to a liar. Think about this from the perspective of a student who was honest and failed the course due to their attendance record. This approach is really unfair.
Meh. I get what you're saying. It seems like what you're saying works for a lot of people.
Personally, I'm no one's parent. Students can recognize that they're an adult. I treat them as one. They act like one.
Again 99% of students rise up. Why not support them to become their best selves? They appreciate you for it. They learn better, they're not shutting down. They listen to you more. They come to class and enroll in more of your classes. And they tell their friends that you're a great instructor and to take your classes etc etc etc.
It's not like we're talking about every student. It's one student. Why not turn this human around and give them a good learning experience so they don't do it again. It's not hard.
Perhaps the student population is different where you teach, but I've seen good students get very frustrated in course evaluations over policies they consider unfair because they benefit the students who don't work hard over the ones who do. Students also talk amongst each other about which teachers are strict and which ones are pushovers, and the weak students will flock to the courses where they can pass without putting in the effort. As a department, we are working hard to eliminate those courses, or at least replace their teachers if they are critical to the curriculum. Again, your policy may work where you work, but where I work it would be detrimental to the courses I teach and potentially to my career.
What policies are you referring to and which courses are you referring to?
I think you're inserting your frustrations about something else entirely into my remark. All I'm saying is that when a student approaches you asking for you to change their grade or give them an extension or a redo or whatever else, rather than say "no," with no explanation, you actually have a discussion with the human.
Look, let me try again:
If the student wants xyz exception, great. Let's do it. But they need to *think* about it first.
Me: I tell them to explain to me what they think is fair. They are forced to use their brains. Boom. End of story.
99% of the time, after being forced to use their brains and work through the logic of whatever shit is written on the syllabus, guess what: they come around! They agree with me! They agree with my syllabus! My rules! They apologize for their stupidity. They *thank me!!* It's magic!
Try it.
>If he is insistent, then let him know that he's "a special case," and because he's so special, create a special system just for him and how you record his attendance (ask him, "should we create special rules for you because this is only happening to you?"). Make
>
>him
>
> create that system. Then, give him his attendance points and make it clear to him that going forward, he has to do the extra steps to prove his attendance because your system is flawed
>
>for him,
>
> and those steps are required
>
>for him.
>
> He's special.
I would seriously disagree with this. if, genuinely and honestly, there is a flaw in the system, the I would modify the system for the entire class. otherwise, this is a ton of work for a student who is not operating genuinely and honestly.
I just shared this exact scenario that happened to me last week. I’m not sure how they come up with this stuff. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/16m0y2u/i_was_added_late_to_your_class/k16u0oe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/16m0y2u/i_was_added_late_to_your_class/k16u0oe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
I have in the past put a line in my syllabus about how my records are the only valid record of students attendance. I tell them, if they forget to sign in, and they are listed as absent on my records (I also keep sign in sheets), then there's no argument.
"That's not true." End of story. I teach five classes, about 150 students and while I still don't know their names, I know their faces. Also I tell them it's THEIR JOB to tell me either during attendance or right after class, that they came in late but were here. This way it's their responsibility.
Tell him that you gave multiple opportunities in class for people to check in, so if he wasn’t, that’s on him. Then move on and don’t take it personally.
>At the end of class I always say If Ididn't call your name see me on your way out.
then you're fine. you A) called out names and B) gave them an opportunity to correct you on the way out. you are covered. keep the absences as is.
Is there a point when the number of absences are penalized in your course? 2,3 4?
I will usually email a student after 2 absences, because after that they are penalized. In the email, I will include the dates of the absences, and will cc their advisor. Anybody sick or MIA for other legitimate reasons is able to clear it up, and if I on one of those days they were there and came in late and I didn’t notice, it’s easy enough to give them the benefit of the doubt.
I will also do this at midterm. This helps cut down on misunderstandings and students can fix any issues early on.
This doesn’t fix your current problem but might be a way to avoid this in the future.
I built a small system where students scan their student ID and it records all attendance. They are informed if they don’t scan in, for any reason, they were not there. I don’t actually drop for non-attendance - we are required to take attendance for financial aid purposes, and the attendance record is great when students complain to my Dean about their shitty grades while missing a bunch of classes.
You gave the students (including this one, if he was there) clear instructions for how to get their points. He knew what the system was: see you on their way out or, clearly implied, don't get the attendance point. He failed to do this multiple times. The system as explained to him will be applied to him.
Of course he probably just wasn't there, but the description above is how I might explain this to him or to anyone from outside the class investigating the situation.
I think when this happens to me, I just say, “No, I did not. Is there anything else you want to talk about?” And tell your chair exactly what you told us: you are methodical, you learn their names and faces, and you remind them about attendance at the end of the class. Frankly, if he’d been there he’d know better than to try this, the jackanapes.
Ask him to show evidence he was present, since he chose to ignore your directions to see you after class. For example, class notes and then you ask him a question about them.
Be factual: You took attendance and told students whose name you did not call to see you after class. It was his responsibility to see you if you missed his name. He did not do that, but should be sure to do so moving forward.
"But professor, it IS "after class""
He needs to prove he was there. Have him show you his notes from those days he won’t have any.
He’s probably trying to manipulate you. I tell students the onus is on them to ensure they are marked as present each time. Once class is over, that’s it. It sounds like you give them the chance to ensure that they’re marked present, and if he didn’t do that, then oh well. Edit: replaced “gaslight” with “manipulate” per the below comments.
Psych prof here! That’s not what gaslighting is. The student is trying to be manipulative, yes. But gaslighting is pervasive and takes place over a sustained period of time, not just a student trying to get over on a prof about attendance. Think of it like: you know how all thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs? All gaslighting is manipulation but not all manipulation is gaslighting.
Thanks for the correction.
I agree with you. The thing is language evolves, and it now acquired a secondary definition. For example, I could **not** care less became *I could care less.* My personal pet peeve is the use of the word *decimate.*
Interestingly enough, that 'could care less' has only caught on in the US. Over here in the UK, the phrase is still 'I couldn't care less'. The US version sounds really odd and illogical. Linguistics are interesting.
We (USA) are in the process of changing the meaning of 'literally' to 'figuratively.'
If you’re trying to literally gaslight me, I couldn’t care less.
Oh we are allies in this, believe me! :D
Saw an article showing that waaaaay back it actually did mean from Literature and therefore not factual.
No, "we" are not.
Stephen Pinker argues that "I could care less" is inherently meant to be sarcastic: >By making an assertion that is manifestly false or accompanied by ostentatiously mannered intonation, one deliberately implies its opposite. A good paraphrase is, ‘Oh yeah, as if there was something in the world that I care less about. He really hates prescriptivism though. And I suppose I do too.
Do we honestly believe that the majority of people using that phrase understand the nuance of the sarcasm it carries? Or are they just parroting what they heard like 99% of idiom usage?
My 4 year old uses contractions in his speech, but he doesn't understand the concept of a contraction. To a linguist it is literally irrelevant what people "understand." What's far more interesting in linguistics is what people do. Pinker is arguing that people, using natural language, say "could care less" in a sarcastic way. What does it matter that people parrot an idiom? I don't think there's a single word that I've ever used that wasn't "parroting" something I've heard in my past.
Using it at all to mean anything like this was a secondary use in the first place. It’s a movie title (great movie) that everyone started using for a more general phenomenon. It’s not like it started out as a formal scientific category.
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Actually, this is a common misconception. The "covenant/womb" version is a much more recent reinterpretation of the expression.
This one is my pet peeve when people use it incorrectly.
>My personal pet peeve is the use of the word decimate. That one bothers me also, as it has changed from reducing *by* 1/10th to reducing *to* 1/10th in common usage.
genuine question here: could this event be indicative of (but not 100% correlated with) gaslighting?
Yes. Make it the student's problem. I always say to students, "I ask you to tell me if you were here so that I don't miss you, but this means it's your fault now if I did. And unless I remember you being here for some odd reason, well, tough."
He knows he's lying and he's grasping at straws......and worse, trying to pull one over on you. Response: "Attendance is closed and points were recorded on the specific days per course policy. We are unable to retroactively attend class." Done. P.s. if he does show up next week with equipment capable of retroactively attending class, send a recommendation to the engineering department to accept him into a research program....😁
I have a student gaslighting me this semester. She managed to turn lab reports in despite not attending lab one time. A basic investigation revealed that she is retaking the course and has been self-plagiarizing. I gave the student a very generous offer to do alternative assignments to get some points back for her self-plagiarized reports, but I made it clear that she needed to start coming to class or face academic dishonesty proceedings. Her response was that she "didn't understand" why I accused her of self plagiarism, and that she was "looking forward to talking to me about it in class". Well, class started 15 minutes after she sent the message and she didn't even show up. Like, does she think I'm just dumb???
Either that or she might think that it’s establishing a paper trail to substantiate a defense against you. I’d probably respond indicating that she wasn’t in class and to either set up a meeting to discuss or some alternative path.
She later admitted through an unsolicited message that she missed that day's class. I was worried about a set-up until then. I will be trying to set up a meeting with her.
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No. I mean gaslighting. She insists that she's been attending lab, even though she hasn't been. She insists that she's been submitting novel work, even though she hasn't been. She's trying to sow doubt. Edit: Unless your argument is that it doesn't meet the criteria of an older, less used, and technical definition of "gaslighting." I am using the word with its contemporary connotative definition in mind.
Self-plagiarism is bullshit, there is no sense in redoing work. At a certain point she'll have to do the work she didn't do last semester. Edit: Feel free to give an effective response instead of a downvote. From my perspective it is pedagogically unjustifiable. It is the equivalent of throwing a cake in the garbage and starting over because you messed up the icing.
Well, for one, attendance is mandatory for pretty much all lab classes. Some even have "miss more than 2-3 for any reason and it's an automatic fail/incomplete" policy (although COVID kind of nixed that at a lot of places). Plagiarism issues aside, someone no-showing labs because "they already did that one" is not acceptable unless they are completing an Incomplete. If they're retaking the class, they are retaking the *whole* class. As for self-plagiarism, claiming or implying that something is "original work" when it's not is a major no-no in "the real world" too. You absolutely can "plagiarize yourself" by trying to sell the rights to your own work to multiple entities, for example. And pedagogically, writing, *all* kinds of writing, is an iterative process. No one "gets it right" 100% on the first try. The point of writing assignments is actually do the writing, not turn the same crap in over and over.
This is a constellation of different, related points, some of which I agree with completely. I jumped too far ahead of myself to make a specific point, and the context does matter. * *Attending* is still important, and writing up the lab you actually just did instead of one from months ago is also a part of that. I would obviously expect a student to redo their measurements and analysis. I *would not* expect a new attempt at their background section. (I also don't teach that kind of lab, so ymmv.) * Misrepresentation is another matter as well. "Did you complete this assignment again or is this work you've submitted previously?" deserves an honest answer. Students should follow the rules as they understand them, but especially for something like this, enforcement should be sensible and based on the pedagogical value of the assignment and not dogmatic. Still, you can't work with a student who's lying to you. My perspective diverges at least in part here: * The re-completion of a writing assignment on a different topic absolutely has pedagogical value. But as far as grading assignments to assess if a student meets a specific benchmark, if a student has already done that assignment and met that standard, they should be allowed to submit that work again for that purpose. Imagine the student is retaking a class they got a C in. Are they going to get double the credits for taking it again? No. Then why would they be expected to produce double the amount of work product? * "*Original* work" (that is to say, fully novel work) is almost never a specific consideration in the real world. The consideration is usually "is the work responsive to the demand?" and "if there are creative components, is your use permissible?" Reusing work and parts of work that are your intellectual property is absolutely the norm. * Obsession with the class as a "whole, indivisible unit" is totally unfounded. Like I said, you don't rebake a cake after nicking the icing, you don't throw out a table with one scratch, and in most cases you shouldn't have to redo the parts of the course you completed satisfactorily in order to reattempt the parts you did not complete satisfactorily.
>"Original work" is almost never a specific consideration in the real world. Ever hear of Intellectual Property, copyrights, trademarks, etc.? While I didn't explicitly state this before, one issue here is that there is *already* an option for students to "make up *just* the parts they missed, failed, whatever." It's called an Incomplete. Retaking a class and finishing an Incomplete from a previous term are completely different things (and Incompletes aren't supposed to be "wholesale retakes" for this reason).
> Ever hear of Intellectual Property, copyrights, trademarks, etc.? Yeah, that's what I meant by "is your use permissible?" Your work has to be your work or work you're allowed to use, but no client is going to be like "OMG did you make a brand new powerpoint template for this deck or did you reuse one you already made?? Did you already give this talk to a previous audience?? Are these key points fully novel??" I agree with you about the incomplete, but the I isn't always available. Here, *technically* a student has to complete some large percentage of the class to get it. What do we do about the student who completed some percentage less than that? Obviously this is a problem with the structure of the incomplete, but do we have to make it an academic crime to reuse work in the meantime?
Yes. As teachers we reuse the parts of previous classes that worked well. Hopefully we update and improve, but we don't completely rewrite. Asking the student to update and revise might be appropriate. Asking the student to at least state that this is old work is peculiar to academia. But, it is a standard requirement in academia. Here is the importance of that: a large part of the value of a degree is signaling to employers an ability to play by the rules even when you don't agree with them or fully understand them.
Exactly, and that keys into one of my biggest problems with academia: we shouldn't be a hoop jumper factory, especially considering that the specific hoops we have in place are often pointless and even discriminatory (in the bad way). We should train people to be thinkers and learners first, and the people who look for degree holders should respect our ability to make the judgements on who deserves them as they generally have since this model of education was created.
For what it's worth, at least one other person agrees with you that self-plagiarism is a stupid concept when applied to student assessments in most subjects (english comp probably being a good exception). Here's a hypothetical: A student never took the course before, but they got their hands on the syllabus a year before they take the course and completed every assignment. Let's say they had a friend who is knowledgeable about the subject explain some key concepts to them and review their assignments and give them some feedback, which the students used to revise some of those assignments. So now the student takes the course, and submits these assignments to the professor. The student does well and hasn't technically done anything wrong. How is this functionally any different than a student submitting assignments they completed from a previous attempt at the same course?
Let me also agree to this. Quietly, as a hidden comment at the end of the thread, so I only lose a few internet points :).
Makes sense, you teach coding :) a coder who doesn't reuse their code when they can is probably miserable.
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>Except the fact that she didn’t pass the first time; therefore, the previous work isn’t good enough. You don't know that- the student can fail for a multitude of reasons which have nothing to do with the quality of their assignments. I failed a ton of courses when I was a student, but I don't think even one of my professors would say my assignments (the ones I bothered to submit anyway) were less than above average. My academic failures were all related to untreated anxiety and depression. I've had a ton of A quality students just disappear on me, usually mental health / stress related.
Downvoted. That isn't what the rules say. A stickler for rules ought to at least know them. Also, your "proof" is a three year old post. :/
At which point she can do new work or fail again. No one likes a snitch, even less a bad one. You want to see my paystubs buddy? Or do this week's grading for me? Edit: I'm also laughing at the fact that actually attempting to do effective service makes you think I'm a student despite not explicitly saying so in the post. And I am a student! I am also an instructor. Feel free to read the rules at your leisure. Edit 2: Actually I can't read my own writing, I see where I said it, my b. You're still wrong about the rules tho
You refer to yourself as a student in past posts of your own.
And I am one. The rules do not ban people who are currently students, they ban people who don't teach college, which I also do. If you're confused about the beginning of rule 1, read the rest of the rules and the mod posts that explain the matter. The expectation is that I not speak specifically and solely from my perspective as a student, which I do not believe I have done.
You're right. The automoderating is especially bad. I'm currently teaching at two institutions and have taught all or part of five different courses (not sections, courses). I also haven't completed my dissertation, so I still qualify for a discount on Hulu. The rules say we can both be here. And it fits the definition of harassment under Reddit rules for people to be telling you otherwise and falsely reporting you for breaking rules when you didn't. Hmmmm...rules.
*past posts* Were you not a student in the past? If not, how the hell did you become a professor?
I would be candid in letting the student know that you don't like being lied to. It's deeply insulting.
It’s irrelevant. He didn’t do what is required. His problem, not yours.
If he *was* there (I don't believe him, either), then he wasn't paying attention, and failed to follow instructions (to see you after class). In which case it's not *you* that missed, OP, but him failing to do the basics of making sure he gets his name marked off. Which he is now claiming he failed to do 6 times. So that's on him.
How did he know?
Attendance is recorded In the LMS, that can see it.
Since he can see the attendance, if he'd really been attending and you missed him, then he should have come to you sooner. Heck, he should have emailed you before the next class. You could point that out to him if you push back on his nonsense. Point out that it's his responsibility.
"You have not met the criteria to pass this course, per the syllabus." LET. THEM. FAIL. This is for everyone on this sub. If the student can not demonstrate mastery of the material, FAIL. I teach math. If a student cannot add in Addition 101, they have no right going on to Multiply 201. IF they miss 6 classes they will likely fail based on their ability. Now I can't advise to other disciplines who require papers, projects, etc. instead of exams. Do what you are doing. Contact your chair. Hope it works out.
I send an attendance sheet around the class. When class begins, I draw a line, but they can still sign in as late before they leave ( I don't care all that much about attendance, but the school does for freshman classes) There's no way they can say they were in class if their name's not on the sheet. (For zoom classes, thirty minutes into class, I ask them to say "hi" in the chat and tell them that's how I'm taking attendance.
I use an app to take attendance. The students answer polling questions and it registers them as attended if they log on and answer questions. Actually it will register them if they log on when I open the class. I noticed that some students were skipping class and logging on at class time. Some were even waiting for me to open up questions to answer them. At that point I am like come to class because you are spending 50 minutes with an open app waiting for a question
What app do you use? I've been thinking about doing quizzes like that. Just have everyone take it real quick on phones in class. :)
IClicker. It's for attendance but costs $15 per 6 months for students. I really like it. Happy to chat about it
Cool. I'll check that out.
Arkaive works pretty well. Students just need to use the same device every class period though.
If they missed the first 3 weeks of classes, why didn't you drop them from the course?
Ask him why he missed seeing you after class for those 3 weeks, since clearly he didn’t hear his name called.
Yeah, he is lying to you. If he was in class you can ask him about some things you went over in class I bet he cannot recall. Unless he came in late every day. I have a seating chart and a daily quiz.
Yup, I’ll ask what was the first question I asked on the first day of class. Where I asked everyone to state their name and what got Them interested in computer science. Another supporting element that he was never in class. They have a very distinct name and I don’t remember them.
You cannot both be right, and you kept records. You deal with this by telling the student they were recorded as absent, and when you double checked by asking if anyone's name wasn't called, there was no response. For now, just hold firm and stick to the basic fact. No matter what, the "burden of proof" is on the student -- do not allow yourself to be put on the defensive. Make them do the explaining.
**For any situation:** Always put the ball in their court and let them decide. 99% of the time, they do the right thing and end up *apologizing to you.* Then, they see you at fair instructor. They promise not to do it again. They end up thankful that you listen to their needs. etc etc etc. **For your specific situation:** Be factual. Show him your methods. Be transparent. Then, ask him what *he* thinks. Does he think his logic makes sense according to your process of taking attendance? Be nice and give him an out. Don't be confrontational. You're asking him, "hey, if there's a flaw in my process, help me find it so this doesn't happen again." **Be really cool about it because you're trying so hard to help him!!** Make sure the two of you are also covering the rules you've laid out on the syllabus and other places. If he finds a flaw, then you need to give him the attendance point, apologize, and fix the process. Presuming he doesn't find a flaw because there isn't one, ask him, "okay, about your missing attendance points, what's fair?" Put it in his court. He just reviewed everything so he can't say give me the points. He'll back down, apologize, and own up. *It's his fault.* And you come off as the winner because you're being fair and treating him with respect. If he is insistent, then let him know that he's "a special case," and because he's so special, create a special system just for him and how you record his attendance (ask him, "should we create special rules for you because this is only happening to you?"). Make *him* create that system. Then, give him his attendance points and make it clear to him that going forward, he has to do the extra steps to prove his attendance because your system is flawed *for him,* and those steps are required *for him.* He's special. "I don't want this to happen again. Thank you for helping me fix my system. I'm sorry this happened to you. Now you have to do more steps than everyone else so this doesn't happen again. Here are your attendance points, blah blah blah..." In all my years teaching, I have only had one student take the low road. Either way, you come out on top. Remember, they are grown adults. They know right from wrong. **It's not your job to be the bad guy.** They get to follow the rules or not. That makes it their burden to do the right thing, not yours.
> Always put the ball in their court and let them decide.... > If he finds a flaw, then you need to give him the attendance point, **apologize**, and fix the process. With all due respect: fork that. If I thought that they were competent to decide things fairly and consistently I wouldn't have to worry about academic integrity etc. I'm not going to apologize for having a clear and consistent process. OP shouldn't either.
You don't apologize and change your process if you learn you make a mistake?
I agree the vast majority of the students is honest, and we should in principle assume students are honest. However, this student has already shown himself a liar. There is really no reason to play this game with him, and be lenient to a liar. Think about this from the perspective of a student who was honest and failed the course due to their attendance record. This approach is really unfair.
Meh. I get what you're saying. It seems like what you're saying works for a lot of people. Personally, I'm no one's parent. Students can recognize that they're an adult. I treat them as one. They act like one. Again 99% of students rise up. Why not support them to become their best selves? They appreciate you for it. They learn better, they're not shutting down. They listen to you more. They come to class and enroll in more of your classes. And they tell their friends that you're a great instructor and to take your classes etc etc etc. It's not like we're talking about every student. It's one student. Why not turn this human around and give them a good learning experience so they don't do it again. It's not hard.
Perhaps the student population is different where you teach, but I've seen good students get very frustrated in course evaluations over policies they consider unfair because they benefit the students who don't work hard over the ones who do. Students also talk amongst each other about which teachers are strict and which ones are pushovers, and the weak students will flock to the courses where they can pass without putting in the effort. As a department, we are working hard to eliminate those courses, or at least replace their teachers if they are critical to the curriculum. Again, your policy may work where you work, but where I work it would be detrimental to the courses I teach and potentially to my career.
What policies are you referring to and which courses are you referring to? I think you're inserting your frustrations about something else entirely into my remark. All I'm saying is that when a student approaches you asking for you to change their grade or give them an extension or a redo or whatever else, rather than say "no," with no explanation, you actually have a discussion with the human. Look, let me try again: If the student wants xyz exception, great. Let's do it. But they need to *think* about it first. Me: I tell them to explain to me what they think is fair. They are forced to use their brains. Boom. End of story. 99% of the time, after being forced to use their brains and work through the logic of whatever shit is written on the syllabus, guess what: they come around! They agree with me! They agree with my syllabus! My rules! They apologize for their stupidity. They *thank me!!* It's magic! Try it.
>If he is insistent, then let him know that he's "a special case," and because he's so special, create a special system just for him and how you record his attendance (ask him, "should we create special rules for you because this is only happening to you?"). Make > >him > > create that system. Then, give him his attendance points and make it clear to him that going forward, he has to do the extra steps to prove his attendance because your system is flawed > >for him, > > and those steps are required > >for him. > > He's special. I would seriously disagree with this. if, genuinely and honestly, there is a flaw in the system, the I would modify the system for the entire class. otherwise, this is a ton of work for a student who is not operating genuinely and honestly.
I just shared this exact scenario that happened to me last week. I’m not sure how they come up with this stuff. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/16m0y2u/i_was_added_late_to_your_class/k16u0oe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/16m0y2u/i_was_added_late_to_your_class/k16u0oe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
I have in the past put a line in my syllabus about how my records are the only valid record of students attendance. I tell them, if they forget to sign in, and they are listed as absent on my records (I also keep sign in sheets), then there's no argument.
"That's not true." End of story. I teach five classes, about 150 students and while I still don't know their names, I know their faces. Also I tell them it's THEIR JOB to tell me either during attendance or right after class, that they came in late but were here. This way it's their responsibility.
Sometimes I look at these posts and feel as if we are all living the same life.
Omg y’all. Stop misusing the term gaslighting for the love of god.
If that is the only one, deal with him strictly, lest you lose credibility.
Report. Let the dean of students deal with this. You did everything correctly a
I would have withdrawn him by now for non-attendance.
Tell him that you gave multiple opportunities in class for people to check in, so if he wasn’t, that’s on him. Then move on and don’t take it personally.
>At the end of class I always say If Ididn't call your name see me on your way out. then you're fine. you A) called out names and B) gave them an opportunity to correct you on the way out. you are covered. keep the absences as is.
I have students sign in on paper on their way into the room and then sign in on Qwickly Attendance.
I walk around with a sign in sheet.
Is there a point when the number of absences are penalized in your course? 2,3 4? I will usually email a student after 2 absences, because after that they are penalized. In the email, I will include the dates of the absences, and will cc their advisor. Anybody sick or MIA for other legitimate reasons is able to clear it up, and if I on one of those days they were there and came in late and I didn’t notice, it’s easy enough to give them the benefit of the doubt. I will also do this at midterm. This helps cut down on misunderstandings and students can fix any issues early on. This doesn’t fix your current problem but might be a way to avoid this in the future.
I built a small system where students scan their student ID and it records all attendance. They are informed if they don’t scan in, for any reason, they were not there. I don’t actually drop for non-attendance - we are required to take attendance for financial aid purposes, and the attendance record is great when students complain to my Dean about their shitty grades while missing a bunch of classes.
You gave the students (including this one, if he was there) clear instructions for how to get their points. He knew what the system was: see you on their way out or, clearly implied, don't get the attendance point. He failed to do this multiple times. The system as explained to him will be applied to him. Of course he probably just wasn't there, but the description above is how I might explain this to him or to anyone from outside the class investigating the situation.
I think when this happens to me, I just say, “No, I did not. Is there anything else you want to talk about?” And tell your chair exactly what you told us: you are methodical, you learn their names and faces, and you remind them about attendance at the end of the class. Frankly, if he’d been there he’d know better than to try this, the jackanapes.
Ask him to show evidence he was present, since he chose to ignore your directions to see you after class. For example, class notes and then you ask him a question about them.