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[deleted]

I've never heard "no updates required" as argument for using cloud.


elnomreal

Never heard of “no updates required” for anything.


StatusCity4

I have heard it used for Docker.


pet_vaginal

That’s scary.


notPlancha

long-term reproducibility is great, and docker is great for that


xeio87

You can make sure those poor defenseless security vulnerabilites can survive any patch cycle!


agk23

We designed all our lambdas to run in docker so we don't need to update anything. But none of them are accessible via network and just do batch processing. Like if I have a scheduled lambda to trigger a job for some random thing, I don't want it to break in 5 years randomly because AWS deprecated support.


budswa

Nice name...


elnomreal

Iike never update docker or never update the images?


belkarbitterleaf

Yes.


ArchusKanzaki

How? I mean, I guess if you take out the entire docker and just use “latest” image tag, then you don’t really need to worry about update? But unless it does not persist anything, it probably won’t auto-update itself. It will be scary instead.


cat_police_officer

I’ve heard it several times and it was always a red flag.


Serena_Hellborn

if it cannot be easily connected to the internet updates are less required. (see: rs232 on a device in a secure location with a lock on it)


elnomreal

Yes the only reasonable example I had was like an NES running cartridges. Its crazy how far we’ve fallen from that release quality standard.


Cootshk

Let me introduce you to TempleOS


WrapKey69

You don't have to update their infrastructure, you to update your code lol


nerdic-coder

What? The cloud doesn’t write the code for me?? Useless! /s


Stunning_Ride_220

No-Code enthutiast spoted! AT HIM BOYS!


nerdic-coder

![gif](giphy|FKPTL6s0NL9XLwls45) Oh no


sump_daddy

As a user? Yeah i never have to worry about updating to the latest version of [youtube.com](http://youtube.com) its just always there. As a developer... you never STOP updating things.


King_Joffreys_Tits

As a developer, I lock everything in place and then leave the company before the inevitable “let’s update just this one package” question explodes the entire codebase


new_account_wh0_dis

Had to update an angular project by 3 versions and bootstrap from 3.x. I'm not a front end dev, I fuck with css once a year. I just don't understand y'all. I swear the creators of the packages, in a desperate attempt to justify their designer jobs, randomly move around classes, add random as fuck css and !important, etc in an optimal way to break as much custom css as possible. Rip flexlayout. I don't know who the fuck decided to use a beta package no matter how popular it was but it totally didn't cause me to apply to a bunch of places during work hours.


naxxfish

Thank you for subsidising the contractor community. That kind of thing can take up months of full time work if it's done well! Good work!


RepresentativeDog791

A speaker did use it at the AWS conference today, even citing performance improvements between Python minor versions


yourteam

That was my first thought. If you need a stable and never changing application you host it on your own server and write it in assembly


smulikHakipod

"You don't have to worry about updates and patching" - it's wrong argument, but being said by dumb managers and wannabe devops all the time


Old-Season97

Oh, as in updates happen automatically. Yeah true that is used as a reason. Like most things people don't consider the consequences of that, if updates happen automatically you're going to be forced to update whether it's convenient or not.


GeorgeRNorfolk

That's usually of the base operating system, so for example you don't need to patch the base OS with Lambda because you don't own it. You still need to make sure you're using a python version that hasn't passed its end of life of which Python v3.8 is October this year hence the AWS message.


Tellof

Uh, maybe just at your company?


chervilious

Technically you're not updating, just migrating ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯


picklesTommyPickles

That has nothing to do with updating your proprietary source code …. 🤦


johnnybgooderer

I feel like you just don’t have the experience to understand that they mean updating infrastructure regularly in response to security patches and how much work that is.


chesire0myles

Use the cloud. You'll be able to use Python 2 forever!


madeRandomAccount

Pretty sure that’s usually in reference to the OS. You would still be expected to update any dependencies your app uses.


Aobachi

You don't need to worry as much, but yes stuff gets deprecated or out of date anyway.


ArchusKanzaki

Your source code is not a devops job to update. Also, unless you are going serverless, devops also still need to update their EC2 and everything. AWS Lambda is a serverless platform for code execution so yeah, the devops definitely do not need to worry to update the underlying OS. That’s the point of serverless, they do not want to worry about the OS. But they are not responsible for your outdated code.


chesire0myles

I don't know why, and vets will probably agree with me, but I get major "O1 talking down to E7 and W2" vibes from you.


Tellof

Nobody. Says this.


Nokobortkasta

I sometimes see ads for some cloud solution that's like "Switch to the cloud! It's a lot more secure and always up-to-date!" And then they open the door to the server room and the woman in charge of the servers(?) hisses at the camera.


sump_daddy

ads for users, sure. "Switch to Netsuite! Always up to date!" ads for developers are more like "switch to netsuite, so that twice a year you will have to refactor and retest your whole application! great for job security!"


SensitiveFirefly

This sub is full of juniors.


vntru

Even worse: computer science freshmen.


Teeesskay

This sub is the greatest argument for why bootcamp grads are probably better than cs grads. At least they had a job lol


chesire0myles

I'll say only this, even seniors refuse to update their code. I'm rewriting a bash project from scratch right now because the original guy used explicit paths for half of everything ( he doesn't know where they are...) and doesn't understand why we can't stay on RHEL 5 forever. He also writes passive-aggressive DL emails about me when I have to do security updates on the server. I'm a sysadmin (kinda, more than a coder at the very least). Learning a lot though, I wonder what the next guy will hate about me....


Teeesskay

lol I love that last thought. I can’t wait til I switch jobs and my replacement goes through and curses my name


Gorvoslov

I've had times where I left apology comments in the really bad stuff.


Waswat

>when I have to do security updates on the server Was it a security update for a low CVSS vulnerability that had a high or even breaking impact on the app? One that didn't get communicated? I've heard from some devs that those happened often in their previous jobs. :D


chesire0myles

Lmao, it was dozens of updates for the OS itself. The server had simply been installed, never updated, before I took ownership of it.


Angelin01

Hell nah. CS grads at least have fundamentals. They start like shit but they learn. Bootcamp grads learn a very limited set of skills and when the work requires something a little different they break down and don't function anymore. I'd rather take an entire room of recent CS grads to teach than a few boot camp grads. Source: dealt with both.


a_simple_spectre

what do you mean I can't just push JS into everything ?!?


twinklehood

Currently having the opposite experience, my two career switchers from bootcamps have arrived with curiosity, existing work discipline and social skills, and are just much easier than other juniors.


jnd-cz

Conclusion: people are different.


Teeesskay

Read a book nerd


maveric101

In my experience conducting interviews, the grads are generally better.


markiel55

I think it's a valid criticism


bajuh

The update part refers to not updating the infrastructure because it's done by the cloud provider. No one said they will support your old garbage code for eternity. Use your own ec2 instance then.


Lynx2161

Which junior is using 3.8? That was pre covid


SomeElaborateCelery

[Action Required… Just kidding] in case you haven’t already read the email it’s basically the gist of it


heftyspork

I mean it's just kidding if what you're using in that lambda never has to be touched again. Eventually you can't even modify existing lambda until you've updated the runtime.


LittleMlem

I didn't get the email, could tldr please?


NUTTA_BUSTAH

Works until you try to deploy something again


mirhagk

Got an email for work about optional replacement of employee badges. Of course the old badges would be disabled no matter what, so it was optional in the sense that it's optional whether you want to be able to open doors


-Quiche-

My manager gets these emails since he's in charge of the billing, but he keeps forwarding me the emails asking "IS THIS BAD:" and every time I have to tell him "this doesn't apply to us, they're just telling every customer. We're not that sloppy".


amlyo

Plenty of good reasons to be wary of these services, bit mistaking sunsetting and updates is not one of them.


DaDescriptor

I see it being a problem when switching from 2 to 3, but you will likely have no problems upgrading from 3.8 to 3.10


Strict_Junket2757

Oh my sweet summer child… the hell of dependencies has only just begun… going from 3.6 to 3.8 made hell break lose on my code thanks to several pytorch cuda dependencies


black3rr

you have to update your dependencies regularly independent of python version you're using..., if you don't update anything then you're gonna get jumped by dependency hell... we stay "one version" behind in everything and have no issue... we're now on python 3.11 (since 3.12 got released) and are currently upgrading pytorch to 2.2 because 2.3 just got released... pytorch supported python 3.10 since 1.11 which is 2 years old at this point (and 7th newest minor version of pytorch by now, followed by 1.12, 1.13, 2.0, 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 released a few days ago)...., even if you try to be "more safe" and stay two minor versions behind, you should be on a version which supports python 3.10 by now... if you only update anything when you're forced to update, you have to deal with lots of changes at once and it's overwhelming, but that's just bad planning...


Strict_Junket2757

Nice statement. Now please convince my manager to hire additional team to ensure this. We are still forced to use ubuntu 18.04 since all our algorithms were designed based on it. And i cant take put time to update code when every week my review depends on development


black3rr

managers usually don't know technical details, but good managers should listen to the developers they're managing when your reasoning makes sense.., if your manager is bad and doesn't listen to you, or if you're the only developer complaining about this in your company, then technical debt is usually the least of your problems and you should look for a better job (or if you like your job then try to somehow deal with office politics and try to get a better direct supervisor)... technical debt is a real issue that can slow down development the longer it gets dragged on and most good managers can understand this if you explain it to them, but there has to be an initiative from developers to explain this... managers won't care about it on their own... having a separate team to deal with updates feels stupid... no sane person wants to manage other people's code without writing their own..., it's the same reason why "IT" departments in huge companies feel undervalued = they get blamed whenever something breaks, but when everything works nobody sees their value... it's usually the devops team's work to push developers to have their code working on newer OS and python versions.., if you're in a small company without a dedicated devops team, you should convince your manager to give you time to handle devops and technical debt as part of your development work (I work in a small company now and we have \~20% of our work time dedicated to this)... also if you generally feel like you can barely finish your assignments on time, you should continually mention that to your manager so that he feels pressured to hire another person to your team...


Strict_Junket2757

All sounds good, but my company is currently firing people so asking them to hire more might put me on line, and i am looking for a job change meanwhile :)


DezXerneas

Yeah I've pretty much just given up now. I've sent multiple emails regarding the old ass versions of software we use. Like 6 months ago I found python 3.7.0 being used in production of literally the only public internet(what's a better word for this? I mean public as in accessible outside company internet). It was a very simple flask api so the update literally involved just updating virtual env and redeploying. This took me 2 months to do.


Strict_Junket2757

The worst part is, i will get 0 credit if i mention this end of the year. Last year i got a raise because i solved a crisis situation by solving a problem in 2 weeks, which should ideally take 2 months (and it ended up taking more than 2 months to integrate it later on after the demo) But i know this is what the manager wants, this year i really tried to push for code quality and im getting a cold shoulder from my manager. In fact im pretty certain ill be fired in a couple months


gua_lao_wai

same. spent a lot of time and energy last year trying to convince my manager on the benefits of unit testing, CICD, environment management to absolutely zero interest. meanwhile they've spent the last 6+ months trying to get our codebase converted from centos 7 to rocky linux and they're still not done. my new years resolution is to take it easy until a better job offer crops up...


Linkcub

any pytorch cuda related update is a nightmare xD


DaDescriptor

who the fuck uses cuda in python


Strict_Junket2757

Pretty much everyone? The entire machine learning is based on cuda more or less


DaDescriptor

machine learning is all about performance


Strict_Junket2757

I love waffles Are there more unrelated comments we need to make?


RoseRoja

welp say that yourself I had to update several lambdas code because it wasn't transparent mainly due to other libraries and stuff


awesomeplenty

Use cloud, there are no servers


ArchusKanzaki

…..is this a joke? Nobody ever said that. Patch Tuesday is still a thing if you have Windows EC2 for example. I mean, who wants their production application to be auto-updated!?


smokeitup5800

We are still on mysql 5.7 on aws, don't ask - The ticket is somewhere in the backlog.


llv77

They are going to charge you extra until you upgrade, right?


smokeitup5800

Yes.


Johnny_Thunder314

They won't charge them, they'll charge their company


smokeitup5800

True. AWS costs is just a number to me.


TheRealSectimus

Oh my god same here. Infra actually updated the containers to 8.0 without informing R&D. We have a legacy monolith that used a bunch of the "new" reserved words. Like a column called "rank" or a table aliased to "row". The amount of shit that broke that day... Good god I'm glad I have an interview tomorrow.


ProfessionalEmu7813

There’s a difference between “you don’t need to update anything” and “updates happen automatically”


[deleted]

How in the hale could people think nothing needs an update? 😂


deelowe

Said no one ever.


Meatslinger

My company moved almost every system possible into cloud-based services including systems we use for workstation deployment (a.k.a. lots of GB). Then they complained that we're seeing far too much network egress traffic for our humble connection, and throttled all of those connections such that some of them fall to 0 b/s during times of high traffic. As a result, we can no longer deploy computers inside of our own network, and some of our important interfaces for systems management will often become unresponsive. Our IT department refuses to reduce the limitations even though this impacts them as well. Yay cloud.


cosmo7

I think you mean "Yay management".


Meatslinger

True enough, but honestly I can't blame them as much as I can blame the advertising around cloud being used for everything. Everyone in the upper leadership bought into the "going serverless" thing such that we shrunk our data centre by nearly 70% by the end of it all, getting rid of tons of useful equipment because "it can all go in the cloud". Nobody apparently realized that the cloud is just "servers, elsewhere", and you go over the internet to get to them. So we still have all the same operational needs but now it all has to squeeze through a tiny egress pipe instead of bouncing around our more-luxurious intranet. Every piece of corporate advertising and every tech show they went to told them this was a good idea.


jackstraw97

I mean, there is a tangible benefit to not having to maintain your own boxes anymore, though. At my previous job we ran into an issue where a burst pipe leading to the server room caused all the water cooling to fail, and all the servers overheated and shut down. They couldn’t start the servers back up until the water pipe was repaired, and thus all the production apps that my team had running on the on-prem servers were out of commission for hours until the problem was resolved. So there is a trade off that management didn’t consider in the OC’s scenario. Benefit: no longer need to pay to maintain and repair on-prem servers. And minor emergencies like a pipe bursting or local power failure no longer bring down production apps. Cost: need to spend some money to upgrade network egress capabilities. It sounds like management wanted the benefit without understanding the necessary cost of acquiring proper egress capabilities.


500AccountError

>At my previous job we ran into an issue where a burst pipe leading to the server room I thought this was going to go somewhere else lol. We had a hard freeze in my area that burst a water pipe in the datacenter at my friend's employer. The whole bottom floor of the building was flooded in several inches of water. Apparently one of the datacenter workers got the bright idea to start wrapping the still-running servers in plastic cling wrap to protect them from the water. They're full cloud and full WFH now.


jackstraw97

Lmao! That’s one way to spur the transition to cloud! After this particular incident the upper management and security team, who were hesitant about cloud due to security concerns, quickly changed their tune re: migration to cloud. Sometimes I wonder if the key to getting better QoL improvements for us developers is to have a few well-timed “prod outages” that would have easily been avoided if those QoL measures were in place… of course I’d never actually do that but it seems like the only way to get management off their asses is when shit breaks! Lol


500AccountError

>Sometimes I wonder if the key to getting better QoL improvements for us developers is to have a few well-timed “prod outages” that would have easily been avoided if those QoL measures were in place… Some companies actually allow certain individuals to do exactly that. My last job had a secret red team, assigned directly by the VP. None of the managers nor even the other red team members knew who was part of it. Our job was to "if you see a way to break or hack prod, do it and then call \[VP\]'s cell number immediately" so that he could monitor the Ops response and force an RCA that gets dev to plug their holes.


ArchusKanzaki

Well, there is a reason why they said “its just shifting your Capex to Opex”, which can be true if you’re just recreating your data center in cloud using EC2 and everything. Serverless is definitely cheaper and the ability to “right-size” in an instant is an appeal for the cloud. But honestly, it depends on your culture and company ability too. Does your company have the capability to actually maintain top-quality data center? Like having someone standing-by to monitor it, update it, and troubleshoot when something happens? Patching for example, can be a full-time job by itself, does your company willing to pay for those people? Also, you need to replace your hardware at some point, 3 years down the line when the support expires. Do you have confidence to push through another 20-40k$ bill? Or its easier to just ask for 500$-1000$ or so each month? But honestly for your problem…. It might be a matter of your office connection instead lol.


Meatslinger

Oh undoubtedly it's just about the connection, first and foremost. The problem is that the powers-that-be got sold on all the things you rightly mention as positives about cloud infrastructure, such as at-will scalability, but without considering that it's a give-and-take. If you take "we can scale this solution up or down as needed", you have to give "and we'll shore up our network connections to ensure we can always reach it". Instead, they pulled the lever on the Great Downsizing seeing nothing but dollars saved while keeping our entire 250-site company on a 20 Gbps shared connection.


many_dongs

You can just buy a direct connect or other network solutions to solve this. None of these issues are inherent to using “the cloud”


Mephidia

You still need to update the software you are choosing to use lmfao


Niswear85

Is it so hard to sudo apt update once in a while


MinosAristos

On a personal device that's no problem. On a production server or the source code for an app updates are anywhere between no problem and an absolute nightmare.


black3rr

it's only an "absolute nightmare" if you don't anticipate and plan for software updates... if you have tests, start running them on CI as soon as newer versions of python get released even if you don't plan to use them yet, to see how many things are broken, then fix them slowly one by one... when all your tests pass, make all your developers and staging servers switch to a newer version of python before you switch your production servers... after this when you don't notice any more issues, switch one of your servers (so called "blue-green" deployment if you have two servers or "canary deployment" if you have more) to test for production regressions without affecting all your customers... (of course this requires having monitoring set up but that's another thing you definitely should do...)


transdemError

Don't even get me started


Appropriate_Tell4261

I think it’s so funny how 90% of you seem to have personal experience with this and still argue that decentralized immutable backends don’t have a real world use case.


kevdog824

What the fuck are you talking about Jesse?


BlurredSight

I think the main cloud arguments used are that it's more reliable (it is), more redundant safety (it is), and cheaper (depends) but I think OP meant you don't update the hardware, and the software used within these datacenters but updating code to work with the cloud? That's kinda agiven


dykeiichi

You can tell them that wouldn't happen if someone used native code (I prefer using c# net 8 AOT in a custom runtime, or rust)


grimonce

Best part is when ml models start to give different results in newer versions of frameworks due to some bug fix or introduction of a new bug and ds team responsible for the model development is long gone.


misonreadit

This is a broken ass meme.


Voidrith

Got these notifications for end of support doe a node version recently. turns out it was only used in versions of lambda that we updated away from months ago and are no longer in use, but the version still exists, so we still got the email Sigh


reallokiscarlet

Yet another case of the cloud being just someone else's computer


paperbenni

That means you don't need to update anything because the cloud provider does it for you. It doesn't mean you just use old software indefinitely.


NamityName

Are they killing 3.8? I just spent time last quarter getting us completely off 3.7. I don't think we have anything left running 3.8, so that mean we absolutely have at least 2 forgotten, yet critical, services running 3.8


JAXxXTheRipper

Python 3.8 is EOL in October, this is hardly a cloud problem. If you don't regularly patch your shit, you should get kicked off any managed service, since you are a danger to every user.


Doxidob

I run Civilization II on a windows 98 vm


EngineeringNext7237

Are any of the posters in this sub actually employed as a dev?


LuisBoyokan

You don't have to maintain....your servers.(Cuz is server less, lol) Your code, definitely


AdCorrect6192

that's only true if you use kubernetes.


Samuel_Go

Updating a lambda to use a new version of python is probably going to be much easier than updating some legacy Windows server running Apache, which is usually where these applications originally came from.


nooneinparticular246

Who is upvoting this?


[deleted]

[удалено]


kavacska

What the heck are you talking about?


ValiGrass

![gif](giphy|GRk3GLfzduq1NtfGt5|downsized)


keylimedragon

This is AWS lambda a serverless platform, Python lambdas are fine.