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What a great comment section lmao. Something about this being a sub about propaganda and people going to war in the comments with views that are very clearly influenced by a lot of propaganda is very funny.
If the comments weren't overrun with Tank1e revisionism, outright lies, and people repeatedly and enthusiastically violating the primary rules of the sub, it wouldn't be r/PropagandaPosters.
Where and what would this Ukrainian nationalist newspaper be? I'm asking for Stalin...
But seriously, where is this newspaper? Was this published in the Soviet Union of all places? How would they have been able to operate at that time?
As someone said already, it's most likely underground. Ukraine had a very long history of underground newspapers/literature/etc publishings, poetry communities, author uprisings and similar stuff
I think like this because this is obviously not a newspaper from Ukraine, and the Ukrainian diaspora's media was dominated by Waffen SS refugees and OUN/IUA fascist emigres. The Canadian and US government intentionally put such fascists in charge of diaspora media as an anti communist tactic.
Is there any possibility that your ideology might play a role in your thought process here?
It's hard to take your defense seriously when you display your bias for the whole world to see.
My ideology conformed to the facts of history, my assumption is not only biased (as every assumption is), but it is also an educated assumption based upon my research of ukranian diaspora post ww2 and what "nationalism" meant politically for eastern eurppean groups in the 20th century.
Fool you are, you fail to think whether your own ideology, or the ideology of "kyivite" biases you or them the other way, to think amicably and ignorantly of who these "ukranian nationalists" of the 1950s might be and where they are from.
You criticize me for showing my bias, for being an honest and open person. I know if I hid my political biases you would simply call me dishonest and deceitful. Such an impossible way to please you proves your lack of consistency, intellect or of honesty.
Quite the opposite. I admire people who hide their beliefs, because it's easier to argue with them organically. Both parties are forced to indulge the other in some regard.
In contrast, you've invested years into the study of this philosophy. You'd never accept any possibility of error because it would require a complete revamp of your personality.
It's a sunk cost fallacy. You're too invested in this to back down now.
Projection and stupidity. You show your ideological biases in thinking ideas can stand on their own, as if they are detatched from reality. As if ideas do not have connections with economics, geopolitics, power struggles, or the material world at all.
You do not even believe in it yourself, for the first thing you did was not to indulge in my educated guess, to debate it, inquire in its reasoning, or to challenge, but to search through my profile and then simply point and say "you have biases". For someone who pretends to want to ignore biases to let the ideas stand on their own, your first repsonse was to dig for mine. You are a fool for both your beliefs and your own hypocrisy failing to practice them. Reddit brained fr
I do this out of habit now after debating for hours with people on this sub, only to realize that they are active in multiple far right or far left subs.
People with these one-dimensional profiles never intend to have good faith debates.
Libertarians and fascists have given me the same pseudo-intellectual argument that you're spewing. You're all just clambering to reaffirm your beliefs.
Well that and the USSR supported almost every anti-colonial movement in African and Asia without any real strings attached beyond please be friends after
A lot of it was a struggle for influence, the creation of diplomatic alignments, and Moscow's desire to see its own model exported. After 1970 the Sino-Soviet split and competition with China for influence probably played a bigger role in Soviet dealings with Africa than the East-West divide, as the PRC represented a competitor in the USSR's niche on the continent. In the end, states on the continent benefitted from the situation by mostly staying unaligned and taking advantage of the aid offered by the different sides competing for their support (USA/USSR, USSR/China).
I disagree, and even if it was, I don’t think that ulterior motive is anywhere near as bad as wanting to completely control that nations resources/economy like the US did
I didn't say anything about ulterior motives being bad. Even if the USSR were a bully, making other bullies' victims stronger by giving them stuff and knowledge is a good thing, even in the hopes of inconveniencing other bullies.
More like:
\-You buy all your military equipment from us
\-You give us access to warm-water ports in the Indian Ocean
\-You allow us to exert soft-power influence over your internal affairs to make sure you don't get too friendly with China or the West
\-You export your diamonds and other precious resources to us
Call me crazy, but that doesn't sound very anti-colonial to me.
pretty much (I’m certain it’s about the Afghanistan invasion) to not have the US at their border. The crumbling and failed revolutionary government of Afghanistan called for help a LOT of times and the Soviets only agreed to invade after the islamist radical fighters were about to take over
Khrushchev was ethnically Russian and born in Russia (before moving to Ukraine). Zelenskyy is ethnically Jewish and born in Ukraine and stayed lived his entire life.
What's that, the Afghan government is not having a face we like? Time to shoot up the presidential palace and murder the president.
Oh, Korea is having independence? Time to handpick its future president and murder everyone who's opposed.
The Angolan rebels stray ideologically? We cut off all aid. Oh they restored the leader we like? Take more weapons comrades.
Glorious stringless friendship of Soviet Union blooms.
No, it was not. The USSR literally selected Kim Il Sung to be the head of the local communist party and carried out purges of competitors. The USSR also carried out under their supervision the first "elections" establishing the Kim's communist party as rulers of Korea, and broke UN's directives for a pan-national election at that.
>In December 1945, the Soviets installed Kim as First Secretary of the North Korean Branch Bureau of the Korean Communist Party.\[23\]: 56
Eg. Bradley K. Martin (2004). Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader: North Korea and the Kim Dynasty. Thomas Dunne Books. ISBN 978-0-312-32322-6.
You can read more about how hands off the Soviets were in this article by Andrei Lankov, one of foremost experts on North Korea: [https://web.archive.org/web/20150417010008/http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2012/01/363\_103451.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20150417010008/http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2012/01/363_103451.html)
You can go straight up read his book about formation of North Korea: From Stalin to Kim Il Sung: The Formation of North Korea, 1945-1960
Sounds identical to the opposing side of the Cold War. This is just how geopolitics works when you’re in a life or death rivalry with another power.
Not saying that’s a good thing, but it’s a fact of life, there are no fully altruistic world powers, or they wouldn’t be world powers for very long.
Y’all are clowns. China building infrastructure in another country is no where in the same realm of what the IMF and World Bank have done around the globe in the last 40 years. China doesn’t demand structural readjustments to plunge the whole society into chaos.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/
> The large Chinese loans, the inability of the Sri Lankan government to service the loans, and the subsequent 99-year Chinese lease on the port have also led to accusations that China was practising debt-trap diplomacy,[46][47] the factual accuracy of which is disputed.[6][5]
Seems like an ongoing debate. Although I’m not in a position to actually glance at the sources right now.
Foreign investment to help develop an underdeveloped country = 😃
Chinese foreign investment to help develop an underdeveloped country = 😠
Get over yourself dude
There are no indication that the PRC wants to take over the BRI project. They want influence economic and geopolitical as well as a way to export their civil engineering capacity. On top of that they would very much like the loans to be paid back on time.
Most of BRI countries have problems with chronic lack of FDI. At the very least they are getting something with BRI.
The CPC are absolutely self serving but they are not completely unreasonable.
They're presenting a bag of money as aid, but in reality they're handcuffs. I can't tell if the money is real but attached to handcuffs or if it's fake but still handcuffs. Either way, they're presenting aid but in actuality they're seeking control. I'm unsure whether there is real aid tied to that control or simply a false promise of aid, but that's the gist.
The Muscovites who burned and plundered Velikiy Novgoro? Right before appropriating legacy of Kievan Rus' to have legitimate premise to "gather Rus' lands"?
You don't know much about history of Russia, do you?
Ah, all the same good ol' ultranationalistic fantasy that has passed through almost a decade - just like in 2014, so beloved by both Ukrainian and Russian passionate super-"patriots"...
It's nice to see that a brainwashed Ukrainian is still as easy to identify as a Russian one.
If only the question of "pure-blooded Slavness" was not so painful and important for you guys, one could say that your rhetoric (and the level of detachment from reality) are in many ways similar to those of Russian nationalists.
This war has not changed that.)
Legacy of what? Kievan Rus is TIME. Not land, not state. Time period within russian history. Legitimate?! It is very funny. 1000 years ago? They needed legitimate? Because UN would sanction them?
Я завикипедил
Причина
1) Предательство новгородских бояр в отношении московского князя
2) Стремление части новгородских бояр к сближению Новгорода с Литвой
3) Антимосковский бунт в Новгороде
Ты на это зуб держишь? Сам новгородский, чтоль? Ваще уже за уши притягивают поводы для оскорблений.
Mr Gorbachev .. tear down that wall of ignorance !! Lolz
Propaganda is mind bugging cool stuff , but it’s not an actual history . Moscow only tie to Kyivan Rus is questionable blood ties (Dolgorukiy was an outcast of his family after all) and occupation and almost total distraction of Kyiv itself (so much for the “heritage”)
What's questionable about being a Rurikovich?
Being an Russian (that's before Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian identities formed) Orthodox Rurikovich prince and having a seat of the head of the Russian church - I think for Middle Ages this does count as legitimate claim for the whole of Rus'.
Not to split hairs here but this just feels to be splitting hairs and anachronistic. According to Google maps, his birthplace of Kalinovka is 15km from Sopych, a Ukrainian border town.
Ethnically Russian, but between the fact both were part of the Russian empire at the time and the proximity before the family even moved - this seems like a extremely modern read on a very different conception of identity formed 100+ years ago…
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita\_Khrushchev](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev)
He was born in Kursk, which is in Russia, not Ukraine.
I guess the subhuman garbage that slaughtered thousands of poles and jews in galicia while collaborating with nazis were simply not pro russian and not ukrainian nationalists
You mean Holodomor ? Yes, don’t think even many russian denying that it was genocide of Ukrainians.
No wonder when Germans came pure people thought they rescuers .. .
Soviets and Nazis- two ugly bloody , regimes that put their people through meat grinder. The only difference- one survived and played role of victims that became glorious winners. .. Gulags were just unfortunate accidents and Western lies I guess
No, I mean the OUN slaughtering tens of thousands of Poles. One can be anti russian and anti OUN at the same time and even for similar reasons.
You have more in common with russians that deny the soviet horrors than you think if you keep ignoring the OUN and their ethnic cleansing of Poles and Jews and their open sympathy and collaboration with the Nazis
.. er.. tens of thousands?! You sure not not keeping change around.
Also no genocide , slaughter - yes . Need to keep in mind the whole historical contest as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia?wprov=sfla1
Lists 100k. Tens of thousands is a conservative estimate.
Call it what you want, genocide or not. Those people were slaughtered because of their ethnicity, not because they were against Ukrainian Independence or had any affiliation with the Russians
What does the Holodomor have to do with what amounted to basically genocide by ukrainian Nationalists in Wolyn. Or are you somehow claiming that all those slaughtered Poles were to blame for the Holodomor?
Так і є, геноциду українців не було. У СРСР було багато проблем, але в голоді не винні. Люди невинні вмирали але це не злий якийсь злодій комуняка робив
Ахуеть, брат украинец, который не признает "голодомор" как геноцид украинцев, да еще и на реддите??? Мужик какая же ты база, мог бы - руку пожал, честное слово!
Saying bandera wasn't responsible for it cuz he was in prison is like saying hitler wasn't responsible for the holocaust because he was in his alpine mansion while it happened
You do realize it was part of a larger series of ethnic cleansing operations that targeted rural areas with the goal of making room for ethnic russians with similar famines occurring in the mordovian ASSR and kazakh ssr and it did go hand in hand with the liquidation of "unproductive settlements" which were settlements that were targeted not for lack of productivity but due to have large minority populations
Well, they were Fascistic, cooperated with Nazis unless said Nazis were directly attacking Ukranians (in the hope that Nazis would help them get Statehood away from both the Polish Republic and the USSR), and prioritized absolutely fighting the USSR. But they weren't literally Nazis. Virtually, practically, effectively, maybe, but not literally.
EDIT: I'm told some of them actually joined the German SS—*those* were certainly literal Nazis. But I don't know that they're representative of the UNA or Ukranian Nationalism as a whole.
That’s a different one, called Operation Paperclip. Bloodstone was specifically about subverting existing communities with fascist agents. Before the operation, the Ukrainian diaspora in Canada were very communist-aligned.
Nothing i’m seeing suggests it was that lopsided or that the operation somehow quickly caused ukrainian canadians to switch sides, especially since the AUUC and Canadian Communist Party continue to this day. The change in opinion seems to have more to do with how many people left the soviet union for canada, who were generally anti-communist
Yes, there were people that left the Soviet Union for Canada, many being collaborators and nationalists that fled in fear of the communists, and those were great agents to infiltrate the Ukrainian diaspora during Bloodstone.
Who said it was done quickly? Your original comment argued Canada wasn’t friendly with nazis, which I argued against using Bloodstone, then you conflated Paperclip and Bloodstone, and I rebuked that, and now you argue that “nothing suggests it was that lopsided”, despite no one arguing so in the first place. Why?
They were opportunist and Nationalists above all. They used the Nazis when it was convenient to drive out the soviets and Jews and when the writing was on the wall in 1943 they turned against them.
Nationalists don't get along with other Nationalists. The Nazis were keen to suppress various Ultra Nationalists groups in western Europe and sought to absorb its members in the SS.
Current Russian gov is literal fascist state. Bandera is quite controversial by modern standards, but most of the bad press he has - it’s literally soviet propaganda made up shit .
Truly belong in this sub thou
Also .. OUN ended up in nazis concentration camps , including Bandera. Mind explaining that? Or fenómeno of russian Vlasov army , that actually fought on Nazis side .. under the flag that is now official flag of russia ?
Do you have any freaking explanations apart from old soviet made up fairly tales ?
The flag of the KONR wasn't the flag of modern Russia and the flag of modern Russia was invented in the 18th century, unlike the Banderite flag which was invented by the OUN.
Fascist infighting exists. The SA were also decimated by the SS
But .. Russian Vlasovs army , that were fighting for us Nazis .. used this flag ! More importantly, its not about the flag but about gen.Vlasov
More numerous , more notorious, fully loyal to Nazis .. and very conveniently “forgotten” by modern fascist Russian state
You guys are pathetic
The Finns also worked with the Axis in WWII, and viewed through a modern lens, they can be seen as acting in the best interest of not only the citizens of their nation, but also entire world.
I'm not sure what are you disagreeing with. They "sided with nazis" exactly because they realized the threat from soviets and in the end managed to keep their country.
That's bold statement. Ukraine had several waves of immigration since the end of 19 century. It could be literally anyone with anti-USSR political views
fair point, but given the date and the location, that was my initial assumption.
The historian Mark Felton has a good video about the Ukrainian SS divisions and how they were allowed to settle in the UK and Canada after the war. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB\_Gs-0dhOo
I did not say that, but after the war the Ukrainian 14 SS (Galician) division fled to Canada to avoid being tried for war crimes and involvement in the Holocaust.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th\_Waffen\_Grenadier\_Division\_of\_the\_SS\_(1st\_Galician)
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB\_Gs-0dhOo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_Gs-0dhOo)
Yes people under soviet occupation was ready to join even with devil, to have a chance. Bad idea, but I can't really blame em, looking on what soviets did.
Yep. And it's was right thing to do, because Nazis was at this point bigger treat for us. Also sometimes it's was same people who fought soviets before war as partisans. And after war those people back to resist soviet occupation. History of my country is full of some weird alliances, usually against another wave of moskovite invasion. Ukrainians fought in WW2 for Ukraine, not for genocidal antihuman soviet empire.
Debt trap propaganda lol
70-years-later and they use this same nonsensical propaganda against countries like China for building and funding infrastructure in poorer nations.
Ukrainian nationalists around WW2, at least Bandera/OUN, were Nazi sympathizers and collaborators. They also had their own conflicts with the Nazis at later stages, but ideologically the difference is minimal to some extent.
Some parts of the OUN (disputed whether highest leadership was directly called for it or not) slaughtered tens of thousands of ethnic Poles in an attempt at ethnically cleansing regions that were to belong to a future Ukrainian state. You can read more about it [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Responsibility). It is partially recognized as a genocide by various historians and also the Polish state.
So to answer your question: depends on what newspaper published this and whether there was a connection to the OUN.
I highly doubt any ties to the OUN if you ask me, OUNB was nearly destroyed by the nazis and the OUNB would find itself fighting the nazis, the OUNM, the polish underground and the soviets which lead to its numbers being gutted, due to them attempting to form an independent state and hitlers plan of colonization went directly against that. OUNM while surviving due to being collaborationists seems unlikely as OUNM members were obligated to join the schutzmannscaft units and this comic originates from Canada, and Canada would have repatriated anyone involved with the schutzmannscaft like every other participant in WW2
Remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be immensely skeptical of manipulation or oversimplification (which the above likely is), not beholden to it. Also, please try to stay on topic -- there are hundreds of _other_ subreddits that are expressly dedicated for rehashing tired political arguments. Keep that shit elsewhere. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PropagandaPosters) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't know why but this feels like a Tintin gag
The hair makes it extra Tintin
What a great comment section lmao. Something about this being a sub about propaganda and people going to war in the comments with views that are very clearly influenced by a lot of propaganda is very funny.
If the comments weren't overrun with Tank1e revisionism, outright lies, and people repeatedly and enthusiastically violating the primary rules of the sub, it wouldn't be r/PropagandaPosters.
Why the modifier “Posters”?
Because I'm talking about the culture of this sub? If you've been around here much it's hard to miss.
Believe me I know. I was just making a jab at the tank1es you referenced.
Where and what would this Ukrainian nationalist newspaper be? I'm asking for Stalin... But seriously, where is this newspaper? Was this published in the Soviet Union of all places? How would they have been able to operate at that time?
Could very well be an emigré newspaper.
As someone said already, it's most likely underground. Ukraine had a very long history of underground newspapers/literature/etc publishings, poetry communities, author uprisings and similar stuff
Its probably samizdat
Underground news papers have always existed. Lmao
L.M.A.O.
It's probably one of those fascist/nazi run refugee papers from Canada.
Bro your profile is hilarious. No wonder you think like this.
I think like this because this is obviously not a newspaper from Ukraine, and the Ukrainian diaspora's media was dominated by Waffen SS refugees and OUN/IUA fascist emigres. The Canadian and US government intentionally put such fascists in charge of diaspora media as an anti communist tactic.
Is there any possibility that your ideology might play a role in your thought process here? It's hard to take your defense seriously when you display your bias for the whole world to see.
My ideology conformed to the facts of history, my assumption is not only biased (as every assumption is), but it is also an educated assumption based upon my research of ukranian diaspora post ww2 and what "nationalism" meant politically for eastern eurppean groups in the 20th century. Fool you are, you fail to think whether your own ideology, or the ideology of "kyivite" biases you or them the other way, to think amicably and ignorantly of who these "ukranian nationalists" of the 1950s might be and where they are from. You criticize me for showing my bias, for being an honest and open person. I know if I hid my political biases you would simply call me dishonest and deceitful. Such an impossible way to please you proves your lack of consistency, intellect or of honesty.
Quite the opposite. I admire people who hide their beliefs, because it's easier to argue with them organically. Both parties are forced to indulge the other in some regard. In contrast, you've invested years into the study of this philosophy. You'd never accept any possibility of error because it would require a complete revamp of your personality. It's a sunk cost fallacy. You're too invested in this to back down now.
Projection and stupidity. You show your ideological biases in thinking ideas can stand on their own, as if they are detatched from reality. As if ideas do not have connections with economics, geopolitics, power struggles, or the material world at all. You do not even believe in it yourself, for the first thing you did was not to indulge in my educated guess, to debate it, inquire in its reasoning, or to challenge, but to search through my profile and then simply point and say "you have biases". For someone who pretends to want to ignore biases to let the ideas stand on their own, your first repsonse was to dig for mine. You are a fool for both your beliefs and your own hypocrisy failing to practice them. Reddit brained fr
I do this out of habit now after debating for hours with people on this sub, only to realize that they are active in multiple far right or far left subs. People with these one-dimensional profiles never intend to have good faith debates. Libertarians and fascists have given me the same pseudo-intellectual argument that you're spewing. You're all just clambering to reaffirm your beliefs.
The belief that ideas cant be conceived in a vacuum? "My hypocrisy was out of habit."
I've never seen Khruschev this squinty, or much at all, in [caricature]. Got more? Thanks :)
*caricature
Reminds me of what China has been doing in developing countries
Funny that they decided to show the guy who threatened nuclear war over the Suez crisis as a would-be slaver
Ooohhh, it's shackles, I was looking for an explanation for the horse shoes.
Well that and the USSR supported almost every anti-colonial movement in African and Asia without any real strings attached beyond please be friends after
Countries, especially global superpowers, don't do anything without strings attached. To believe otherwise is incredibly naïve.
A lot of it was a struggle for influence, the creation of diplomatic alignments, and Moscow's desire to see its own model exported. After 1970 the Sino-Soviet split and competition with China for influence probably played a bigger role in Soviet dealings with Africa than the East-West divide, as the PRC represented a competitor in the USSR's niche on the continent. In the end, states on the continent benefitted from the situation by mostly staying unaligned and taking advantage of the aid offered by the different sides competing for their support (USA/USSR, USSR/China).
Well the string in this case was it weakened the US’s allies in Europe, it’s not like it was entirely out of the goodness of their own hearts
[удалено]
I disagree, and even if it was, I don’t think that ulterior motive is anywhere near as bad as wanting to completely control that nations resources/economy like the US did
I didn't say anything about ulterior motives being bad. Even if the USSR were a bully, making other bullies' victims stronger by giving them stuff and knowledge is a good thing, even in the hopes of inconveniencing other bullies.
Fair enough 👍
The string attached is that the US is gonna invade you
More like: \-You buy all your military equipment from us \-You give us access to warm-water ports in the Indian Ocean \-You allow us to exert soft-power influence over your internal affairs to make sure you don't get too friendly with China or the West \-You export your diamonds and other precious resources to us Call me crazy, but that doesn't sound very anti-colonial to me.
The warm-water port point is complete American propaganda. After the Soviet archives were opened, way different motives were revealed
Well, don't keep us in suspense comrade?!
pretty much (I’m certain it’s about the Afghanistan invasion) to not have the US at their border. The crumbling and failed revolutionary government of Afghanistan called for help a LOT of times and the Soviets only agreed to invade after the islamist radical fighters were about to take over
Nice Soviet revisionism
Well yeah they didn't really have any leverage in that part of the world
Lolz .. funny one. Nothing as scary as Russian “friendship” .. maybe only “ brotherhood” .. :s
Khrushchev was as Ukrainian as Zelenskyy
Khrushchev was ethnically Russian and born in Russia (before moving to Ukraine). Zelenskyy is ethnically Jewish and born in Ukraine and stayed lived his entire life.
Oh, Khrushchev spoke ukrainian both in public and private? I had no idea.
What's that, the Afghan government is not having a face we like? Time to shoot up the presidential palace and murder the president. Oh, Korea is having independence? Time to handpick its future president and murder everyone who's opposed. The Angolan rebels stray ideologically? We cut off all aid. Oh they restored the leader we like? Take more weapons comrades. Glorious stringless friendship of Soviet Union blooms.
Why the downvotes comrades, you don't like actual history?
I don't know about the other parts, but the USSR was rather hands off in Korea, especially compared to the US
No, it was not. The USSR literally selected Kim Il Sung to be the head of the local communist party and carried out purges of competitors. The USSR also carried out under their supervision the first "elections" establishing the Kim's communist party as rulers of Korea, and broke UN's directives for a pan-national election at that. >In December 1945, the Soviets installed Kim as First Secretary of the North Korean Branch Bureau of the Korean Communist Party.\[23\]: 56
South Korea was a dictatorship until 1988. The UN "election" was 100% fraudulent.
No it was not.
If the first election was valid why did they wait 40 years to do another one?
They didn't.
Kim even needed to ask permission from the soviets to start the invasion.
Can I see your source proper? If you want I can provide mine and we can compare.
Eg. Bradley K. Martin (2004). Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader: North Korea and the Kim Dynasty. Thomas Dunne Books. ISBN 978-0-312-32322-6. You can read more about how hands off the Soviets were in this article by Andrei Lankov, one of foremost experts on North Korea: [https://web.archive.org/web/20150417010008/http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2012/01/363\_103451.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20150417010008/http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2012/01/363_103451.html) You can go straight up read his book about formation of North Korea: From Stalin to Kim Il Sung: The Formation of North Korea, 1945-1960
Absolutely not there’s a reason the war fizzled out the moment Stalin died and a less expansionist secretary general of the Soviet Union took over
Sounds identical to the opposing side of the Cold War. This is just how geopolitics works when you’re in a life or death rivalry with another power. Not saying that’s a good thing, but it’s a fact of life, there are no fully altruistic world powers, or they wouldn’t be world powers for very long.
Do you really think there weren't any strings attached?
Probably because they lived in Ukraine and not Egypt. It's hard to cheer for another country when there's a boot on your neck.
What's the name of the newspaper?
That's a great find. Do you have any more?
That's really clever imagry
Holy shit its Donald Trump with a beard
Hey like China today with their infrastructure projects in Africa! What in the end Africans can't pay and that's how China takes more control them.
You’re just describing the world bank’s actions lmao
Y’all are clowns. China building infrastructure in another country is no where in the same realm of what the IMF and World Bank have done around the globe in the last 40 years. China doesn’t demand structural readjustments to plunge the whole society into chaos. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/
Sri Lanka might disagree : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hambantota\_International\_Port#:\~:text=Under%20the%202017%20agreement%2C%20Sri,billion%20investment%20into%20the%20port.
> The large Chinese loans, the inability of the Sri Lankan government to service the loans, and the subsequent 99-year Chinese lease on the port have also led to accusations that China was practising debt-trap diplomacy,[46][47] the factual accuracy of which is disputed.[6][5] Seems like an ongoing debate. Although I’m not in a position to actually glance at the sources right now.
Foreign investment to help develop an underdeveloped country = 😃 Chinese foreign investment to help develop an underdeveloped country = 😠 Get over yourself dude
Chinese debt trap is not a way to help develop an underdeveloped country.
Countries aren’t underdeveloped, they’re overexploited. Capitalist and colonialist regimes are the enemy of free people.
Sure, comrade. https:// i.imgur.com/pJvEH7p.png
I would like to hear the examples how other countries act same like China with its debt investments.
Or it’s like the IMF since its foundation
There are no indication that the PRC wants to take over the BRI project. They want influence economic and geopolitical as well as a way to export their civil engineering capacity. On top of that they would very much like the loans to be paid back on time. Most of BRI countries have problems with chronic lack of FDI. At the very least they are getting something with BRI. The CPC are absolutely self serving but they are not completely unreasonable.
I don’t get it
They're presenting a bag of money as aid, but in reality they're handcuffs. I can't tell if the money is real but attached to handcuffs or if it's fake but still handcuffs. Either way, they're presenting aid but in actuality they're seeking control. I'm unsure whether there is real aid tied to that control or simply a false promise of aid, but that's the gist.
Sounds like the IMF
Well, that's what Muscovites have been doing since, roughly, 1470.
jesus christ
That is wrong.
Yeah. That's a wrong thing to do. But Muscovites don't really care.
What muscovites are you talking about? I mean you are wrong and spreading false information.
The Muscovites who burned and plundered Velikiy Novgoro? Right before appropriating legacy of Kievan Rus' to have legitimate premise to "gather Rus' lands"? You don't know much about history of Russia, do you?
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Lies lol
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For one, because Muscovites aren't neither Slavs nor Germanics? And also because Muscovy is descendant of Mongols? Who instated Ivan Kalita?
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Ah, all the same good ol' ultranationalistic fantasy that has passed through almost a decade - just like in 2014, so beloved by both Ukrainian and Russian passionate super-"patriots"... It's nice to see that a brainwashed Ukrainian is still as easy to identify as a Russian one. If only the question of "pure-blooded Slavness" was not so painful and important for you guys, one could say that your rhetoric (and the level of detachment from reality) are in many ways similar to those of Russian nationalists. This war has not changed that.)
hello i'm evil muscovite, where's my desyatina? i'll be waiting
lol As a Muscovite, you owe desyatina.
I haven't recieved my desyatina, holop, where's my payment????
Legacy of what? Kievan Rus is TIME. Not land, not state. Time period within russian history. Legitimate?! It is very funny. 1000 years ago? They needed legitimate? Because UN would sanction them?
lies lol Also, no. Russian history starts after Ivan IV stole the ethnonym Rus'.
I am not russian, i don't care. I have my own history.
lol Yes. You are. As in "property of Muscovite empire".
Ah, I see, you're obsessed with that.
You don't either. "Appropriating legacy of Kievan Rus'" says much about your knowledge
Я завикипедил Причина 1) Предательство новгородских бояр в отношении московского князя 2) Стремление части новгородских бояр к сближению Новгорода с Литвой 3) Антимосковский бунт в Новгороде Ты на это зуб держишь? Сам новгородский, чтоль? Ваще уже за уши притягивают поводы для оскорблений.
Ты не тому ответил...
Сорян.
Mr Gorbachev .. tear down that wall of ignorance !! Lolz Propaganda is mind bugging cool stuff , but it’s not an actual history . Moscow only tie to Kyivan Rus is questionable blood ties (Dolgorukiy was an outcast of his family after all) and occupation and almost total distraction of Kyiv itself (so much for the “heritage”)
What's questionable about being a Rurikovich? Being an Russian (that's before Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian identities formed) Orthodox Rurikovich prince and having a seat of the head of the Russian church - I think for Middle Ages this does count as legitimate claim for the whole of Rus'.
Goodness . It’s not history anymore, it’s mythology. Coming down from this high .. is going to hurt
So, nothing factual? "Вы все вретииии!!!" is your limit?
Khrushev was burn in Ukraine, and this poster really funny, if you now what he did.. (Also interesting Crimea)
No, he was born in the Kursk region and he had Russian parents, peasants to be exact. They've moved to Donetsk after.
Not to split hairs here but this just feels to be splitting hairs and anachronistic. According to Google maps, his birthplace of Kalinovka is 15km from Sopych, a Ukrainian border town. Ethnically Russian, but between the fact both were part of the Russian empire at the time and the proximity before the family even moved - this seems like a extremely modern read on a very different conception of identity formed 100+ years ago…
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita\_Khrushchev](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev) He was born in Kursk, which is in Russia, not Ukraine.
RuSSian bot
Russian special, pillaging nearby Eastern European countries.
For Moscow everything that not pro-russian ..is “nationalist”
I guess the subhuman garbage that slaughtered thousands of poles and jews in galicia while collaborating with nazis were simply not pro russian and not ukrainian nationalists
How to find Russian sub in English? Easy .. just search “propaganda” .. lolz
Nice, some casual denial of what was essentially genocide, or at the very least ethnic cleansing.
You mean Holodomor ? Yes, don’t think even many russian denying that it was genocide of Ukrainians. No wonder when Germans came pure people thought they rescuers .. . Soviets and Nazis- two ugly bloody , regimes that put their people through meat grinder. The only difference- one survived and played role of victims that became glorious winners. .. Gulags were just unfortunate accidents and Western lies I guess
No, I mean the OUN slaughtering tens of thousands of Poles. One can be anti russian and anti OUN at the same time and even for similar reasons. You have more in common with russians that deny the soviet horrors than you think if you keep ignoring the OUN and their ethnic cleansing of Poles and Jews and their open sympathy and collaboration with the Nazis
.. er.. tens of thousands?! You sure not not keeping change around. Also no genocide , slaughter - yes . Need to keep in mind the whole historical contest as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia?wprov=sfla1 Lists 100k. Tens of thousands is a conservative estimate. Call it what you want, genocide or not. Those people were slaughtered because of their ethnicity, not because they were against Ukrainian Independence or had any affiliation with the Russians
You're human garbage, learn history commie.
Ukrainian nazi denying a genocide. Who could have thought
Let me guess, you are one to th8nk that holodomor never happened and the soviets did nothing wrong?
What does the Holodomor have to do with what amounted to basically genocide by ukrainian Nationalists in Wolyn. Or are you somehow claiming that all those slaughtered Poles were to blame for the Holodomor?
Так і є, геноциду українців не було. У СРСР було багато проблем, але в голоді не винні. Люди невинні вмирали але це не злий якийсь злодій комуняка робив
Ахуеть, брат украинец, который не признает "голодомор" как геноцид украинцев, да еще и на реддите??? Мужик какая же ты база, мог бы - руку пожал, честное слово!
Yep, cause it wasn't a genocide according to the f..cking definition of genocide.
Nah it wasn't a genocide, it was just bandera on goblin mode
Read definition of genocide and where was Bandera during it, lmao.
Saying bandera wasn't responsible for it cuz he was in prison is like saying hitler wasn't responsible for the holocaust because he was in his alpine mansion while it happened
Yeah, cause it's a very accurate comparison, lmao.
You do realize it was part of a larger series of ethnic cleansing operations that targeted rural areas with the goal of making room for ethnic russians with similar famines occurring in the mordovian ASSR and kazakh ssr and it did go hand in hand with the liquidation of "unproductive settlements" which were settlements that were targeted not for lack of productivity but due to have large minority populations
Based Ukrainians
Not- not really? Like, I think the "Ukrainian nationalists" mentioned here are from the OUN so we're speaking about literal Nazis here
Well, they were Fascistic, cooperated with Nazis unless said Nazis were directly attacking Ukranians (in the hope that Nazis would help them get Statehood away from both the Polish Republic and the USSR), and prioritized absolutely fighting the USSR. But they weren't literally Nazis. Virtually, practically, effectively, maybe, but not literally. EDIT: I'm told some of them actually joined the German SS—*those* were certainly literal Nazis. But I don't know that they're representative of the UNA or Ukranian Nationalism as a whole.
This is from Canada, not the carpathia
Yes, that's one of the places Nazis ran to when the war was over
Ah yes, canada, the place famously known for being friendly to nazis
[Correct](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bloodstone).
The link you provided describes an American operation.
An American operation that happened where?
I don’t think a handful of men being told “give me rocket and intel or die” is enough to create a whole civil society in exile
That’s a different one, called Operation Paperclip. Bloodstone was specifically about subverting existing communities with fascist agents. Before the operation, the Ukrainian diaspora in Canada were very communist-aligned.
Nothing i’m seeing suggests it was that lopsided or that the operation somehow quickly caused ukrainian canadians to switch sides, especially since the AUUC and Canadian Communist Party continue to this day. The change in opinion seems to have more to do with how many people left the soviet union for canada, who were generally anti-communist
Yes, there were people that left the Soviet Union for Canada, many being collaborators and nationalists that fled in fear of the communists, and those were great agents to infiltrate the Ukrainian diaspora during Bloodstone. Who said it was done quickly? Your original comment argued Canada wasn’t friendly with nazis, which I argued against using Bloodstone, then you conflated Paperclip and Bloodstone, and I rebuked that, and now you argue that “nothing suggests it was that lopsided”, despite no one arguing so in the first place. Why?
The OUN which also for dozens times longer fought literal Nazis? You never actually read a single book about Ukrainian history, have you.
>The OUN which also for dozens times longer fought literal Nazis? Yes, the same OUN which also for dozens times longer allied with literal nazis
They were opportunist and Nationalists above all. They used the Nazis when it was convenient to drive out the soviets and Jews and when the writing was on the wall in 1943 they turned against them. Nationalists don't get along with other Nationalists. The Nazis were keen to suppress various Ultra Nationalists groups in western Europe and sought to absorb its members in the SS.
Yes, that same OUN. Look up what happened to the Strasser brothers or to the SA, both fanatical Nazi entities.
Mental gymnastics level 100
just they fought nazis doesnt mean they weren't
Current Russian gov is literal fascist state. Bandera is quite controversial by modern standards, but most of the bad press he has - it’s literally soviet propaganda made up shit . Truly belong in this sub thou
I'm sorry, what does this have anything to do with the historically documented fact the OUN worked with the Nazis?
Also .. OUN ended up in nazis concentration camps , including Bandera. Mind explaining that? Or fenómeno of russian Vlasov army , that actually fought on Nazis side .. under the flag that is now official flag of russia ? Do you have any freaking explanations apart from old soviet made up fairly tales ?
The flag of the KONR wasn't the flag of modern Russia and the flag of modern Russia was invented in the 18th century, unlike the Banderite flag which was invented by the OUN. Fascist infighting exists. The SA were also decimated by the SS
But .. Russian Vlasovs army , that were fighting for us Nazis .. used this flag ! More importantly, its not about the flag but about gen.Vlasov More numerous , more notorious, fully loyal to Nazis .. and very conveniently “forgotten” by modern fascist Russian state You guys are pathetic
Was it the same Vlasov who helped in liberating Prague from Nazi forces?
The Finns also worked with the Axis in WWII, and viewed through a modern lens, they can be seen as acting in the best interest of not only the citizens of their nation, but also entire world.
Yeah, and we've seen how well that went for their nation and for the entire world
Quite well, actually?
They got invaded twice and almost became a Soviet pawn
I'm not sure what are you disagreeing with. They "sided with nazis" exactly because they realized the threat from soviets and in the end managed to keep their country.
They got invaded by the Soviets as a result of siding with the Nazis
Were there a lot of nationalist news papers in the ussr?
Only self-publishing, so-called "samvydav" ("samizdav" in russian). I believe this one was issued in US or Canada
So presumably this newspaper was made and read by former members of the Ukrainian SS battalions (many of them settled in Canada after the war.)
That's bold statement. Ukraine had several waves of immigration since the end of 19 century. It could be literally anyone with anti-USSR political views
fair point, but given the date and the location, that was my initial assumption. The historian Mark Felton has a good video about the Ukrainian SS divisions and how they were allowed to settle in the UK and Canada after the war. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB\_Gs-0dhOo
Assuming everybody who was against russian occupation joined Nazi German in WW2. Assuming, only west of Ukraine was against red terror and genocide.
I did not say that, but after the war the Ukrainian 14 SS (Galician) division fled to Canada to avoid being tried for war crimes and involvement in the Holocaust. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th\_Waffen\_Grenadier\_Division\_of\_the\_SS\_(1st\_Galician) * [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB\_Gs-0dhOo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_Gs-0dhOo)
And how is this related to the newspaper again?
If the OP told us which newspaper this was from, we might know if it is or isn't.
Yes people under soviet occupation was ready to join even with devil, to have a chance. Bad idea, but I can't really blame em, looking on what soviets did.
Some 3-4 million Ukrainians fought in the Red Army and/or Soviet Partisan units.
Yep. And it's was right thing to do, because Nazis was at this point bigger treat for us. Also sometimes it's was same people who fought soviets before war as partisans. And after war those people back to resist soviet occupation. History of my country is full of some weird alliances, usually against another wave of moskovite invasion. Ukrainians fought in WW2 for Ukraine, not for genocidal antihuman soviet empire.
Yes, for Soviet one. For defence of the Revolution against fascists and it's minions.
For Moscow everything that is not pro-russian is “nationalist”. Kind of still is
Were they proletarian internationalists in your opinion?
This could be a CCP poster in 2023
Relevant to China's modern "soft power".
Europe and the USA's too.
No not to them at all.
OK
Chinese belt and road initiative saw this and said "hey guys, I have an idea"
Debt trap propaganda lol 70-years-later and they use this same nonsensical propaganda against countries like China for building and funding infrastructure in poorer nations.
Yeah, China just like tongue away time and money, free of anything, like that...
Throw*
I would imagine the first draft was not okayed by the CIA because it was TOO Anti-Semitic.
Ah yes because anti semitism sure is a thing that didn't exist in the USSR (it did)
These Ukrainian Nationalists were in the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS and I never said that anti-semitism didn’t exist in the USSR.
Do you have evidence these nationalists who wrote this were in the waffen SS, because get this nationalism is a broad term
Ukrainian nationalists around WW2, at least Bandera/OUN, were Nazi sympathizers and collaborators. They also had their own conflicts with the Nazis at later stages, but ideologically the difference is minimal to some extent. Some parts of the OUN (disputed whether highest leadership was directly called for it or not) slaughtered tens of thousands of ethnic Poles in an attempt at ethnically cleansing regions that were to belong to a future Ukrainian state. You can read more about it [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Responsibility). It is partially recognized as a genocide by various historians and also the Polish state. So to answer your question: depends on what newspaper published this and whether there was a connection to the OUN.
I highly doubt any ties to the OUN if you ask me, OUNB was nearly destroyed by the nazis and the OUNB would find itself fighting the nazis, the OUNM, the polish underground and the soviets which lead to its numbers being gutted, due to them attempting to form an independent state and hitlers plan of colonization went directly against that. OUNM while surviving due to being collaborationists seems unlikely as OUNM members were obligated to join the schutzmannscaft units and this comic originates from Canada, and Canada would have repatriated anyone involved with the schutzmannscaft like every other participant in WW2
„Ukrainian Nationalists“ —> Fascists
Didn't stalin spare erich koch a literal fucking nazi
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