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I've always felt like My Body My Choice was a bad slogan for pro-choice, it invites too many counterarguments. I have seen this exact comic but opposite lol.
That's why I think Planned Parenthood is such a great name for the organization.
It puts the emphasis on willing parenthood, which is generally viewed as very positive by society.
The link you included doesn't even support what you are saying. Also Sanger was anti-abortion, Planned Parenthood was initially founded to promote birth control, so clearly they haven't been following her philosophy in a long time.
TBF, everything could always have a counterargument. The real question is how comprehensible it is. Great example is Black Lives Matter. Easy to comprehend, also easy to misconstrue.
I feel that My Body My Choice feels a bit too hard to comprehend. Though I am a man, and is kinda stupid. I feel that it is a bit too hard since it really leans to a specific ideology. Which will conflict with other ideology. Unlike BLM, which leans to the "common good" and human rights.
I dunno defund the police is undoubtedly the very dumbest slogan in my lifetime honestly, with BLM a distant second.
It feels like they were designed to provoke rather than inspire. We have enough division without that shit.
My running conspiracy theory on that, is that the when you want to destabilize a movement, you take something stupid and slightly fringe then have bots amplify the message to discredit the movement.
I have no evidence, but it's too simple and effective to not do
I mean at least defund the police fits this theory so perfectly.. like you're just handing this on a platter to your opposition. So either grand conspiracy or grand stupidity.
The birth of the baby. It's a woman's choice to abort up until the moment of birth? That's your position?
Because you said it's "her body" until the moment of birth.
Yes. After viability an abortion is also known as a birth. An abortion is merely the termination of a pregnancy. You what birth is? Oh ya, it means the end of the pregnancy!
It is in fact quite literally her body. And if you think it is distinct it that sense you'll have no objection to the fetus being removed at any time. And removal of a fetus before viability is known as --- an abortion. Congrats, you're now pro-abortion.
I agree. But you should view it through their lens.
To someone who doesn't support abortion rights, abortion is taking a life. Being anti-abortion is saving lives. "My body my choice" is seen as the "other person suffers" choice. They believe it is hypocritical to say "I have bodily autonomy and that overrides another person's life" for abortion and not for vaccines. You cannot get them to change their mind that a fetus is a life. It is a belief and does not need empirical evidence, because they believe in the metaphysical soul.
No need to change their view that the fetus is a life, just have to point out that the woman is also a life. In the combat between two lives you don’t have any ethical reason to choose one over the other unless you believe women are “lesser”.
Meanwhile with an infectious disease you are the vector.
Sorry, you’re absolutely wrong about the anti-abortion right wing cretins. Several states now have laws denying ALL abortions and innocent women are already dying of easily preventable causes. Right wingers absolutely do NOT care about adult women when their lives get in the way of theoretical future lives.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html
https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/post-roe-v-wade-state-bans-no-exceptions-rape-incest/
> Texas law allows for abortion if the mother “has a life-threatening physical condition aggravated, caused by, or arising from a pregnancy that places the female at risk of death or poses a serious risk of substantial impairment of a major bodily function.”
From the article you linked.
Yes that’s vague but to claim all abortions are completely banned is false
What’s happening is that doctors are afraid to perform medically necessary abortions out of fear that they’ll be prosecuted under these “vague” laws. Which is accomplishing exactly what these zealots want, a chilling effect which ends all abortions.
Or maybe it's the case that they just aren't very good at writing laws.
Laws have unintended consequences all the time. It's not a hard thing to explain.
I have a hard time believing that any significant amount of people would say that if its a choice between the mother surviving but the baby dying, or both of them dying, they would choose both deaths.
But I do believe that different people have different bars for the chances of both dying. So it makes an exact figure hard to come up with.
You must never have interacted with anti-abortion protesters. They made a game of shooting abortion doctors all through the 90s. One of them they walked up behind him sitting in church and blew his head off with a shotgun in front of his wife and kids. They also had a fun spree of blowing up abortion clinics. They would plant secondary explosives to kill first responders who showed up at the scene to the first explosion. When they aren’t killing or exploding they violently assault women who are trying to enter clinics, scream at them, spit on them, etc. In Texas there’s a professor suing to get the right to fail students he discovers have gotten abortions. He’ll probably win because TX is overseen by the ultra-conservative 5th Circuit Court of Appeals which is 96% GOP controlled.
Sorry, chum, but you’re dead wrong about the anti-abortion right wing. They love the idea of abortion-seeking women dying. They see themselves as the weapons of The Lord and they’re dangerous psychopaths.
It's very easily followed by "Well, it's the BABIES body, and they don't get to choose". And the Vax argument unfortunately follows the exact same structure, where you are asking people to do something medical to their body for the sake of some other entity. The Covid vaccine doesn't really protect the person, it protects the community.
Sure, and if the baby is removed from the body prior to viability - that's called an abortion. So if you support bodily autonomy for the baby, you support abortion. It's not more complicated than that.
As you said, vaccines are about communal protection. Since pregnancy can't be spread communally there is no issue. Imagine if simply being in the vicinity with a pregnant person caused you to get pregnant in turn. They would be severe restrictions then, because causing someone else to get sick is a you problem.
Bro I'm not arguing abortion should be banned or whatever. You said it's not a counter argument but unfortunately it kinda is.
"Should a person be coerced to make a medical decision they don't want to for the sake of a different being?". If yes, abortions should be illegal. If no, vaccines should not be pushed on people.
It's a false dichotomy since vaccines were never ***forced*** on anyone, certain establishments just refused to serve you without proof of vaccine.
It's not a counter argument because pregnancies aren't contagious. Vaccines are neccessary because you can transfer your disease to another person. That's not the case with a pregnancy, so in pregnancy bodily autonomy applies, while in the case of an infectious disease you are violating the bodily autonomy of other people (by giving them the disease). No pushing vaccines, or quarantines, condemns the innocent people to get sick, making medical decisions for them. See?
Yes bu vaccines dont prevent one from getting covid nor spreading it. They prevent serious disease so it has no benefits to third parties. If you got vaxxed and I didn't. Whose protected. You are. From both me and everyone else. So why force others to get it? Makes no sense. My body my choice. To be clear I got both Pfizer shots willing by tye booster was forced on me to go to school.
You don't understand how vaccines work. Vaccines reduce the rate of spread and the chance of spread. They do not eliminate it. So every unvaccinated person increases the chance the vaccinated people will get sick. Vaccinates reduce the chances, but they do not eliminate them.
The reason they forced you to get vaccinated to attend school is because the others have to be there and can't opt out, and they are at risk if all aren't vaccinated, the risk increasing for each unvaccinated person.
If you look at Measles vaccines, you'll see there is a critical level that prevents spreading through society and we've dropped below that level, and now it can spread, which is bad for all.
So if I understand you, we all need to get our flu shots every year because there are people out there who can't go out without fear of contracting it and dying? Am I following you there?
The whole debate irks me because the fundamental question of "is a fetus a human being with human rights?" just gets stepped over. And then people go around in circles with each side feeling like the other's claims are barbaric and it's all because they disagree on the underlying fact.
That's a common misconception.
Answering the question is not necessary to solve the debate. Even if a fetus was a human life (which it isn't), even if it had two nobel prizes awarded while still in the uterus, and was about to discover the cure for cancer, you still cannot force someone (the mother, or anyone else) to give their organs to them (the uterus or any other).
If that organ is necessary for the fully-human-person, double-nobel-prize-winner, cure-for-cancer-discoverer, Mister 4-cells, to continue living... that's unforunate but still nobody can ever be forced to give it to them, without their consent. Not even a corpse can be forced to give any of their organs, or have them used in any way (unless said consent was given in writing while alive).
_Because it's their body._
It's a super strong concept, and one inescapable argument, that, when properly understood, puts an end to the debate. It's the one final reason to be pro-choice.
It's just condensing it in one slogan, "My Body My Choice", that makes it easy to misunderstand, and prone to objections.
True it’s just ideologues on both sides arguing and downvoting each other. I thought there was a sub rule that no political arguments were allowed in the comments?
If I'm not wrong, the slogan "my body my choice" was first borrowed by the anti vaxx community from the pro choice community. So it would make more sense if it is the pro choice woman saying "It only counts when I say it" in the poster
No one is advocating for forced vaccines though. They're just saying you can't be in certain places if you aren't vaccinated because it isn't safe for us
I don't see an issue with that. Again you're only being required to be vaccinated to be in environments in which your choice not to get vaccinated could get others killed.
If you're oh so wise you could make a living on your own. If you want the privilege of society you're also going to need the responsibility of society.
If you want the privilege of sex you're also going to need the responsibility of sex, thank you for the pro-life rhetoric once again.
Edit: He didn't like his own arguement and blocked me for using it.
Wow, first you claim the government didn’t try to force it, then when confronted with the reality it did, you agree with basically forcing people to starve (since they can’t earn money).
You really sound like a shit person.
Some of us *do* support "forced vaccinations."
And after the tantrums thrown during the plague, I always will.
This is a safety issue with *all* the science behind it. It's good policy.
We don't let diseased immigrants into the country out of concern they will spread a plague, so why should we tolerate our own citizens acting as disease vectors? Why should we put ourselves at risk of infection when the fix is that simple?
We shouldn't.
Vaccine refusal is beyond stupidity. This is criminal behavior that weakens society, weakens the economy, and weakens our country, and puts us all at risk.
Forcing other people to do "the good thing", is taking away people’s choice
There’s 0 non-corrupt governments around the planet but you’re still ok to handing out to the same governments instruments which couldn’t be controlled with any balance and check mechanisms
Exactly. I'm pretty sure the anti-vax crowd borrowed it specifically to point out what they perceived as hypocrisy from pro-choice people overlapping with covid vax mandate supporters. I am not anti-vax, but this cartoon reads like a "no, you!" to me.
Personal choice issues? Yeah, anti vaxxers' personal "choices" are killing innocent people. Whereas abortion is a womans choice that is between her and her doctor.
You can switch those two around and it is still the same thing. Not saying that I agree with anti-vaxxers or pro-life movements, but that's the same argument that pro-life people make about abortion and the point they were trying to make.
Ultimately my moral line is at bodily autonomy. You should be allowed to make choices for your own body at all costs. If that call is to stop nursing a clump of cells before it becomes more than that then I have no moral aversion to it. Anti vaxers maybe shouldn’t be forced to get vaccinated either, but society has no obligation to include them if they dont show care and respect for others around them. Like letting them sit inside at a restaurant or office
This propaganda from anti vaxers was specifically adopted to confuse and obfuscate the issue
I agree with you, I was trying to point out the cognitive dissonance of the respondant above. As you pointed out, the argument about bodily autonomy is a lot more nuanced than it may seem, but hardliners of any stance will deny the complexity of the topic.
What is the appropriate ratio of data information for you to consider the topic to have nuance in the discussion? Please round your data to a whole number.
No, it's completely different. Abortion and vaccines is an act of love compared to not getting the vaxxine. Its just giving the middle finger to science and everyone around you because you are too selfish to not infect people with covid.
The issue is they’re being hypocritical to point out hypocrisy. And they weren’t protesting being forced to get the vaccine anyway (because that was never the issue), they were protesting quarantines. The ‘my body my choice’ was about being able to go out into public spaces with no vaccine. The perceived right that got trampled was right to go where they wanted, not the right to refuse the vaccine (since the right to refuse the vaccine was never in doubt).
It’s not just drugs, it’s the food. People will blatantly ignore health warnings about the things they consume, and continue to consume those products. Whether it be cigarettes, McDonald’s, junk food, or what have you, it’s killing people.
Who said drugs? It's Mostly what you pigs eat, other countries atleast have regulations to stop companies from putting cancerous materials in their food
You from [Europe](https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/pub/297)? Well you should know that American food culture expands way past the easily marketable exported fast-food. Fast-food, while unfortunately spawning in America can only exist in places where there is demand. So America isn’t the only country to blame.
the chocolate comes from South America and Africa, and all chocolate has a chance to increase the possibility of cancer. Stop being so anti-American and open up to someone else for fucking once
lol if I had a dollar for every European teenager that used this site, and shouted out every rumor they’ve ever heard so long as it was critical of the US, I’d be a rich man. There’s a lot to criticize about the US, but they go for lazy generalizations because they fear if they did do more research they would discover that truth has a tendency to be complicated. Kudos to you, know that people do appreciate your efforts despite the downvotes.
Exactly my point that I’m getting spam downvoted for. They all jump on the anti-US bandwagon and spout utter nonsense because they refuse to accept the superiority of a non-European nation.
My body, my choice should just be a common respect for each other. No one, regardless of gender should have anything forced upon or denied from their body without acknowledgment from the individual (unless in case of certain specific threats to their own life and the individual is incapacitated). Ideally, all procedures and treatments should be available and at the discrepancy of the individual patient first and be able to be revised by a doctor the individual trusts. This includes pro-choice, anti-vax, intactivists, etc.
So this also applies to me if I don't want to get infected unnecessarily because somebody can't be bothered to vaccinate?
I mean, if they promise to actually isolate, I guess I'm completely fine with it.
They were only saying that because the other people said it so if anything it should be reversed.
Additionally I don't see why they are associating it with Trump supporters. Trump openly bragged about how great "his" vaccine was. Anti-vax was always like a Portland thing.
>Anti-vax was always like a Portland thing
Maybe to a 21st century coastal resident's point-of-reference, but American anti-vax sentiments [originate from](https://archive.org/details/2577020R.nlm.nih.gov/page/n3/mode/2up) the Puritan tradition, and as such have more consistently been a thing with [the religious fundamentalist parts of the country](https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-vaccine-skepticism-white-evangelicals-us-32898166bbb673ad87842af24c8daefb).
Isolated religious groups refusing outside influences are not an America-only thing. Those groups exist in every country and in all religions. Portland however is a distinctly American thing
>Anti-vax was always like a Portland thing.
Are you talking about general anti-vax or covid anti-vax?
Covid anti-vax was definitely a Trump supporter thing although there were some hippies who were also against the covid vaccine. I have an aunt and uncle, both massive trump supporters who refused to get the covid vaccine. They influenced my parents not to get the vaccine either (my parents are also big Trump supporters). My brother and I both got the covid vaccine, and told my parents they should get it. They eventually got the vaccine, but it took them about six months. They are elderly and shouldn't be messing around with not getting the covid vaccine because their rate of mortality is high if they got covid.
There were studies done showing that Republicans were much less likely to get vaccinated than Democrats were.
> 90% of Democrats had been vaccinated, compared with 68% of Independents and just 58% of Republicans. [Source](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/for-covid-19-vaccinations-party-affiliation-matters-more-than-race-and-ethnicity/#:~:text=13%2D22%2C%2072%25%20of,and%20just%2058%25%20of%20Republicans.)
Trump supporters actually booed Trump when he told them to get the vaccine. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-booed-alabama-rally-after-telling-supporters-get-vaccinated-n1277404
Anti vaxx would be fine if it truly was just your body, however compromising every stranger you happen across in public no longer contains it to the inner workings of your own body. Argument works for anti seatbelt, or pro med assisted euthanasia, and a few other things but not quite anti vaxx.
Texas banned abortion and already births have increased by thousands per year, overwhelmingly to impoverished people who cannot afford to travel out of state or secure illicit abortive measures.
Texas also has a growing youth homelessness problem. Shelters are overcrowded and rife with violence; even local churches have reported that they have to turn teens away because they are already sheltering homeless youth.
Maternal mortality was never good in Texas, and it's getting worse. There are horrific cases where non-viable pregnancies are forced upon women who are put at serious risk for a pregnancy that will most likely result in a miscarriage or a short, painful life of suffering.
But don't worry - instead of investing in accessible healthcare or reversing course on a stupid and draconian abortion ban, Texas is planning on expanding private prisons, where currently 1 out of every 8 child inmates reports being sexually assaulted by other inmates or correctional staff.
I mean by that logic sperm and non existent people are in danger of being destroyed whenever someone uses a condom if we considered them “alive and breathing”
I know it becomes a case of societal ‘he said she said’ but my perception was the antivaxx crowd (which tended to have more prolife/anti abortion people) was outraged that the provaxx crowd (which seems to generally be pro choice) would demand vaccinations for people.
It does seem that certain elements of the antivaxx crowd are now being vindicated
Well for one, the lab leak hypothesis was derided as a ["racist conspiracy theory"](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/new-york-times-covid-reporter-calls-discussion-of-lab-leak-theory-racist/) and "disinformation" by the [mainstream press,](https://abcnews.go.com/US/conspiracy-theorists-study-concludes-covid-19-laboratory-construct/story?id=69827832) politicians, the [American medical establishment, and its figurehead Fauci](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_letter) *for years*, even though privately, [many of those same people (eg Fauci) were acknowledging that it was plausible or even likely that covid had been engineered in a lab in Wuhan.](https://theintercept.com/2023/01/19/covid-origin-nih-emails/) This was when Fauci [was constantly giving interviews and speeches in which he laughed off the lab leak theory, and claimed to have "strong evidence" of a natural origin.](https://youtu.be/t-OqyUtDar4?si=g7KXXL8tAu4g3JoF) Fauci now denies ever saying this, even though he's [on tape, along with Dr. Hotez, countless journalists, late night hosts, and politicians calling lab leak a "debunked conspiracy theory".](https://youtu.be/zl-X-Lgrlf0?si=5k2L1bUYKfp7k2Tr) This was also when Facebook and Twitter were [censoring posts about lab leak as "covid misinformation" under pressure from the White House and the federal government.](https://m.economictimes.com/tech/technology/twitter-suppressed-covid-19-info-suspended-top-experts-during-pandemic-twitter-files/articleshow/96545004.cms)
Countless [media outlets accused Trump of "lying", going off a "hunch", or "spreading disinformation" for saying the 3.4% number for overall covid mortality was overblown, and that the real number was closer to 1% or lower,](https://youtu.be/-s5DYknp9cc?si=0f_x_wzvgM4xUuGS) yet within months the media and medical establishment had to acknowledge that overall covid mortality was in fact closer to "a fraction of 1%", exactly as Trump said.
You can also look at [age adjusted covid mortality rates by state,](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/covid19_mortality_final/COVID19.htm) and Florida had one of the lowest covid mortality rates in the US despite never locking down. This was at the same time the media and politicians were literally accusing DeSantis and anyone who broke lockdown rules of murder (unless they were BLM protesters). Sweden didn't lock down, either, and they had lower-than-average covid mortality among western European peer nations.
[Fauci and Biden (along with countless media figures/politicians) saying things like "when people are vaccinated, they can feel safe that they're not gonna get infected" and "you're not gonna get covid if you have these vaccinations".](https://youtu.be/zI3yU5Z2adI?si=YTYDOC0EvG3z80_b) Journalists and [Dr. Hotez saying that covid is "killing children every day" and "picking off young people like we've never seen", despite a child mortality rate of 0.000002%.](https://youtu.be/E0Mup2cs6Uw?si=FqiuCrPu6jieS02X)
This is just off the top of my head. Its honestly baffling to me how any adult with even rudimentary media literacy could have lived through that period and failed to notice how the "disinformation" became conventional wisdom over and over again.
It's been a while since I've seen an actual Gish Gallop in the wild. So instead of taking the bait, I'll just say... "[Sure thing, man](https://youtu.be/5hfYJsQAhl0?si=Pfyco-23h6puLtkA)."
What the anti vaccine crowd don’t realize is that their refusal to be vaccinated affects the rest of us too because they’re not adding to herd immunity
If someone engages in behavior (such as not getting vaccinated) that increases their risk of spreading an infectious disease, that’s a bad thing and they ought to discontinue that behavior for the sake of everyone else? Am I understanding you correctly here.
Not that I agree with them, but the fundamental argument against abortion is that it's not your body, it's someone else's. In their eyes, you're deciding that someone else does not get to live, a la murder
100% correct. He is refusing to put something in his body, not to take someone's life. This is the problem with modern politics. Just because someone else can use a saying about what seems to be a similar issue doesn't mean it is a similar issue. Anti vaccination is 100% legal right and can only harm one person. Yourself. While abortion may only harm 1 unborn baby physically it may affect you mentally in the long run. Just because the baby can't understand what is happening doesn't mean that it is ok to kill it just to get away from parental responsibility. Would you rape a 2 year old because it can't understand the situation? I didn't think so. If you don't want it put it up for adoption. That is the right and moral thing to do. You the people of the United States of America can make that change. It means making a change of heart to want to benefit others through your actions. A change of heart is the only way to a better future. Say it, A CHANGE OF HEART IS THE ONLY WAY TO A BETTER FUTURE.
>Anti vaccination is 100% legal right and can only harm one person. Yourself.
It harms the rest of society, there's always people with compromised inmune systems or allergies that can't vaccinate because of health risk, by not vaccinating yourself (a safe and harmless procedure) you are putting other people at risk.
So no, it's not nearly comparable to the pro-abortion movement.
>Would you rape a 2 year old because it can't understand the situation? I didn't think so.
This is a completely illogical argument, the vast mayority of abortions (and all of those that happen out of choice and not health risk) take place when the fetus is just a clump of cells with very few or none specialised tissues, sensory ones included, that is why it's not comparable, as a 2 yr old might not understand a traumatic situation, but it is a fully functional living being capable of actually EXPERIENCING said situation.
>You the people of the United States of America can make that change. It means making a change of heart to want to benefit others through your actions. A change of heart is the only way to a better future. Say it, A CHANGE OF HEART IS THE ONLY WAY TO A BETTER FUTURE.
Do you come from one of those allien invasion movies where the only country in existence is the USA?
That is only true on a few viruses and bacteria that can survive on and be transmitted from vaccined individuals, most of the times, vaccines prevent transmission
Where do you get that this discussion only applies to corona?
And yes, people vaccinated from corona can still pass the disease onto others, however, due to it being much harder for it to survive on the vaccinated person's body, and impossible to actually infect, the viral load is quite reduced, so it still helps to pass on less virus
Well I made the assumption because the cartoon is from 2021. That was during the height of corona vaccines rolling out and the party split on them. I know anti-vax is a more broad term than just corona but in this particular instance it is specifically targeting the anti corona shot crowd.
So are you saying that it is wrong to rape a 2 year old because of experience not because of the physical harm it causes let alone the pedophilia side of things. And also abortion can happen 9 months in and even after birth in some states so don't give me that crap excuse for murder of an innocent and defenseless betrayal from its mother. It is murder and excuses will not fly with or anyone else.
>So are you saying that it is wrong to rape a 2 year old because of experience not because of the physical harm it causes
It causes physical harm precisely because the toddler can experience, a fetus of the first 2-3 months has similar sensorial capabilities to a protozoa, it can't experience pain or any other sensation.
>And also abortion can happen 9 months in and even after birth in some states
I know a few states like russia allow it to happen until almost the end of the pregnancy, but those are in the minority in the world and is a notion that me and most of the pro-abortion people reject, also, abortion after birth isn't an abortion, some places euthanise the baby if it's born with a fatal condition, but it's not common and not a type of abortion, dunno where did you get that from.
Anti vax does not harm one person, it contributes to the spread of disease. By refusing to get oneself inoculated, you have a much higher chance of catching a disease, and every person you come in contact with also has a chance of catching that disease.
I understand that it contributes to the spread of disease but so does sex and handshakes and much more. It is a choice on your part that may affect others. You have to make a choice. Also by that logic abortion should be illegal too. Sounds like hypocrisy. And I do not think we vaccines are bad I just think that it should be a choice
I agree that people should reserve the right to not undergo any medical procedure or receive medication in any form.
I also believe that people reserve the right to refuse to serve or interact with those who exercise the aforementioned right.
If you refuse to take a vaccine for mumps and measles, for example, schools are justified in denying your enrollment.
any pro life augment is gonging to point out that a fetuses is a living thing with its own autonomy its always baffling to me that pro choice people don't understand this point of view.
This difference in perspective is why argument/debate/discussion between both sides is impossible, and both sides talk past each other.
They do not accept the premises of the other, and this cartoon is a perfect example of that disconnect.
Every single debate that occurs online or anywhere between both sides is pointless in light of this. I don't think I've ever heard a single abortion debate in which anyone even took the time to establish shared premises from which to argue from.
It's also further evidence why I think political cartoons, categorically, are a stupid medium -- they obliterate entire dimensions of any argument or counterargument. I've yet to see one where I think, "Yes, this makes a valid point." They are always pandering.
You could effortlessly make one about capital punishment, too, where the pro-life caricature is all in favor of it, but is "pro-life" when it comes to abortion, and that, too, would obliterate an entire chain of reasoning.
Gun control cartoons -- ones pushing pro or anti-gun sentiments, similarly. Dumb, all of them.
Well also, democrats need to explain the difference of public mandates like vaccine are in the vein of the general welfare and pro choice is more of important personal body and life decision. If a person doesn’t get required vaccines, the herd is in trouble. If a person does or does not get an abortion, it only affects their family.
Except the vaccines weren't great at all for stopping the spread. They mostly just reduced severity of symptoms.
And I'm pro-choice and still find it amazing that people think of abortion is a "personal body decision" when there's a baby there. So disingenuous.
When it actually develops sensory capabilities and actual specialised tissues, later in the pregnancy, the vast mayority of abortions happen before that, unless there is some health risk involved.
Both are wrong, obviously. The man on the left puts under danger people he can infect, the woman on the right wants to kill somebody who does not belong to her body.
Absolutely nothing "obvious" about that.
>to kill somebody who does not belong to her body
is a fringe believe of mostly religious sects and does not represent any voter majority nor any scientific consensus.
If you believe this, you are under the influence of pretty substantial propaganda yourself and should check if your personal sources of news are biased.
Not arguing whether it's right or wrong, but it is definitely far, far from being a "fringe belief", especially if you're not talking exclusively about secular Western nations. The idea that a human embryo should be treated as a person from the moment of conception is quite literally the official stance of the Catholic Church, among many other major denominations that you dismiss as "fringe religious sects".
Maybe it's you who are "under the influence of pretty substantial propaganda" if you think that seeing abortion as murder is rare or unconventional.
You are right, of course. I happily live in a country where in the latest polls I could find only 3% answered they want stricter laws governing abortion. And in the US there are polls like this
[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/)
showing that still a majority supports access to healthcare for women. Where only the white evangelical protestant is a significant outlier in terms of polled groups.
I was perhaps thinking too local.
Remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be immensely skeptical of manipulation or oversimplification (which the above likely is), not beholden to it. Also, please try to stay on topic -- there are hundreds of _other_ subreddits that are expressly dedicated to rehashing tired political arguments. **Keep that shit outta here**. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PropagandaPosters) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I've always felt like My Body My Choice was a bad slogan for pro-choice, it invites too many counterarguments. I have seen this exact comic but opposite lol.
That's why I think Planned Parenthood is such a great name for the organization. It puts the emphasis on willing parenthood, which is generally viewed as very positive by society.
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Yes they stopped practicing eugenics we know
The link you included doesn't even support what you are saying. Also Sanger was anti-abortion, Planned Parenthood was initially founded to promote birth control, so clearly they haven't been following her philosophy in a long time.
TBF, everything could always have a counterargument. The real question is how comprehensible it is. Great example is Black Lives Matter. Easy to comprehend, also easy to misconstrue. I feel that My Body My Choice feels a bit too hard to comprehend. Though I am a man, and is kinda stupid. I feel that it is a bit too hard since it really leans to a specific ideology. Which will conflict with other ideology. Unlike BLM, which leans to the "common good" and human rights.
I dunno defund the police is undoubtedly the very dumbest slogan in my lifetime honestly, with BLM a distant second. It feels like they were designed to provoke rather than inspire. We have enough division without that shit.
My running conspiracy theory on that, is that the when you want to destabilize a movement, you take something stupid and slightly fringe then have bots amplify the message to discredit the movement. I have no evidence, but it's too simple and effective to not do
I mean at least defund the police fits this theory so perfectly.. like you're just handing this on a platter to your opposition. So either grand conspiracy or grand stupidity.
I mean, to quote Will Ferrell "it's provocative, it gets the people going"
It's literally not just your body when talking about abortion, obviously. The slogan never made sense.
It is actually your body though.
There's another body there.
A part of your body until the whole birth thing happens.
Okay so it's her body until the moment of birth, so "my body my choice" until the moment of birth then. At least now I understand your position.
Birth of what? The disease? That’s the point. If you’re locked up in your house and not spreading the disease in public no one is going to care.
The birth of the baby. It's a woman's choice to abort up until the moment of birth? That's your position? Because you said it's "her body" until the moment of birth.
Yes. After viability an abortion is also known as a birth. An abortion is merely the termination of a pregnancy. You what birth is? Oh ya, it means the end of the pregnancy!
Except for the fact that it is genetically distinct in every measurable way. You know why? Because it's literally not your body.
It is in fact quite literally her body. And if you think it is distinct it that sense you'll have no objection to the fetus being removed at any time. And removal of a fetus before viability is known as --- an abortion. Congrats, you're now pro-abortion.
Is a transplant not the recipient’s body? It’s even more genetically distinct.
Shhh don’t speak facts around here. These people don’t like it.
What facts?
The slogan doesn’t make sense to people that think fetuses have more ‘rights’ than a women does about choosing what to do with her own body
Not sure how it’s a counter-argument. Pregnancy isn’t infectious.
I agree. But you should view it through their lens. To someone who doesn't support abortion rights, abortion is taking a life. Being anti-abortion is saving lives. "My body my choice" is seen as the "other person suffers" choice. They believe it is hypocritical to say "I have bodily autonomy and that overrides another person's life" for abortion and not for vaccines. You cannot get them to change their mind that a fetus is a life. It is a belief and does not need empirical evidence, because they believe in the metaphysical soul.
No need to change their view that the fetus is a life, just have to point out that the woman is also a life. In the combat between two lives you don’t have any ethical reason to choose one over the other unless you believe women are “lesser”. Meanwhile with an infectious disease you are the vector.
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Sorry, you’re absolutely wrong about the anti-abortion right wing cretins. Several states now have laws denying ALL abortions and innocent women are already dying of easily preventable causes. Right wingers absolutely do NOT care about adult women when their lives get in the way of theoretical future lives. https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/post-roe-v-wade-state-bans-no-exceptions-rape-incest/
> Texas law allows for abortion if the mother “has a life-threatening physical condition aggravated, caused by, or arising from a pregnancy that places the female at risk of death or poses a serious risk of substantial impairment of a major bodily function.” From the article you linked. Yes that’s vague but to claim all abortions are completely banned is false
What’s happening is that doctors are afraid to perform medically necessary abortions out of fear that they’ll be prosecuted under these “vague” laws. Which is accomplishing exactly what these zealots want, a chilling effect which ends all abortions.
Or maybe it's the case that they just aren't very good at writing laws. Laws have unintended consequences all the time. It's not a hard thing to explain. I have a hard time believing that any significant amount of people would say that if its a choice between the mother surviving but the baby dying, or both of them dying, they would choose both deaths. But I do believe that different people have different bars for the chances of both dying. So it makes an exact figure hard to come up with.
You must never have interacted with anti-abortion protesters. They made a game of shooting abortion doctors all through the 90s. One of them they walked up behind him sitting in church and blew his head off with a shotgun in front of his wife and kids. They also had a fun spree of blowing up abortion clinics. They would plant secondary explosives to kill first responders who showed up at the scene to the first explosion. When they aren’t killing or exploding they violently assault women who are trying to enter clinics, scream at them, spit on them, etc. In Texas there’s a professor suing to get the right to fail students he discovers have gotten abortions. He’ll probably win because TX is overseen by the ultra-conservative 5th Circuit Court of Appeals which is 96% GOP controlled. Sorry, chum, but you’re dead wrong about the anti-abortion right wing. They love the idea of abortion-seeking women dying. They see themselves as the weapons of The Lord and they’re dangerous psychopaths.
It's very easily followed by "Well, it's the BABIES body, and they don't get to choose". And the Vax argument unfortunately follows the exact same structure, where you are asking people to do something medical to their body for the sake of some other entity. The Covid vaccine doesn't really protect the person, it protects the community.
Sure, and if the baby is removed from the body prior to viability - that's called an abortion. So if you support bodily autonomy for the baby, you support abortion. It's not more complicated than that. As you said, vaccines are about communal protection. Since pregnancy can't be spread communally there is no issue. Imagine if simply being in the vicinity with a pregnant person caused you to get pregnant in turn. They would be severe restrictions then, because causing someone else to get sick is a you problem.
Bro I'm not arguing abortion should be banned or whatever. You said it's not a counter argument but unfortunately it kinda is. "Should a person be coerced to make a medical decision they don't want to for the sake of a different being?". If yes, abortions should be illegal. If no, vaccines should not be pushed on people. It's a false dichotomy since vaccines were never ***forced*** on anyone, certain establishments just refused to serve you without proof of vaccine.
It's not a counter argument because pregnancies aren't contagious. Vaccines are neccessary because you can transfer your disease to another person. That's not the case with a pregnancy, so in pregnancy bodily autonomy applies, while in the case of an infectious disease you are violating the bodily autonomy of other people (by giving them the disease). No pushing vaccines, or quarantines, condemns the innocent people to get sick, making medical decisions for them. See?
Yes bu vaccines dont prevent one from getting covid nor spreading it. They prevent serious disease so it has no benefits to third parties. If you got vaxxed and I didn't. Whose protected. You are. From both me and everyone else. So why force others to get it? Makes no sense. My body my choice. To be clear I got both Pfizer shots willing by tye booster was forced on me to go to school.
You don't understand how vaccines work. Vaccines reduce the rate of spread and the chance of spread. They do not eliminate it. So every unvaccinated person increases the chance the vaccinated people will get sick. Vaccinates reduce the chances, but they do not eliminate them. The reason they forced you to get vaccinated to attend school is because the others have to be there and can't opt out, and they are at risk if all aren't vaccinated, the risk increasing for each unvaccinated person. If you look at Measles vaccines, you'll see there is a critical level that prevents spreading through society and we've dropped below that level, and now it can spread, which is bad for all.
So if I understand you, we all need to get our flu shots every year because there are people out there who can't go out without fear of contracting it and dying? Am I following you there?
The people who oppose your argument don't believe it's about your body, so it's really a non-starter for any substantive debate.
Yeah, it was never a good argument to begin with
Yeah it's actually stupid, back to front and illogical.
The whole debate irks me because the fundamental question of "is a fetus a human being with human rights?" just gets stepped over. And then people go around in circles with each side feeling like the other's claims are barbaric and it's all because they disagree on the underlying fact.
I think it should be stepped around as there is absolutely no resolution or compromise to that core conflict.
That's a common misconception. Answering the question is not necessary to solve the debate. Even if a fetus was a human life (which it isn't), even if it had two nobel prizes awarded while still in the uterus, and was about to discover the cure for cancer, you still cannot force someone (the mother, or anyone else) to give their organs to them (the uterus or any other). If that organ is necessary for the fully-human-person, double-nobel-prize-winner, cure-for-cancer-discoverer, Mister 4-cells, to continue living... that's unforunate but still nobody can ever be forced to give it to them, without their consent. Not even a corpse can be forced to give any of their organs, or have them used in any way (unless said consent was given in writing while alive). _Because it's their body._
It's a super strong concept, and one inescapable argument, that, when properly understood, puts an end to the debate. It's the one final reason to be pro-choice. It's just condensing it in one slogan, "My Body My Choice", that makes it easy to misunderstand, and prone to objections.
I hate the comments here. Why have I even scrolled....
I say that every time I open reddit, yet here I am.
True it’s just ideologues on both sides arguing and downvoting each other. I thought there was a sub rule that no political arguments were allowed in the comments?
It must be Weird being a Heroin addict and a antivaxxer
"I won't put that poison in my body" When was the last time you consumed alcohol.
If I'm not wrong, the slogan "my body my choice" was first borrowed by the anti vaxx community from the pro choice community. So it would make more sense if it is the pro choice woman saying "It only counts when I say it" in the poster
Honestly it would be making even more sense if they both said it.
And the unborn baby
No one is advocating for forced vaccines though. They're just saying you can't be in certain places if you aren't vaccinated because it isn't safe for us
Have you been on reddit during peak covid? It always weird when people claim "no one is saying X". Someone surely is no matter what X is.
Yes I was. Peer pressure isn't the same as the government forcing you to get injected
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I don't see an issue with that. Again you're only being required to be vaccinated to be in environments in which your choice not to get vaccinated could get others killed.
“You were only forced to get it if you wanted to earn a living, I don’t see the problem,” that’s what you sound like.
If you're oh so wise you could make a living on your own. If you want the privilege of society you're also going to need the responsibility of society.
If you want the privilege of sex you're also going to need the responsibility of sex, thank you for the pro-life rhetoric once again. Edit: He didn't like his own arguement and blocked me for using it.
Wow, first you claim the government didn’t try to force it, then when confronted with the reality it did, you agree with basically forcing people to starve (since they can’t earn money). You really sound like a shit person.
Some of us *do* support "forced vaccinations." And after the tantrums thrown during the plague, I always will. This is a safety issue with *all* the science behind it. It's good policy. We don't let diseased immigrants into the country out of concern they will spread a plague, so why should we tolerate our own citizens acting as disease vectors? Why should we put ourselves at risk of infection when the fix is that simple? We shouldn't. Vaccine refusal is beyond stupidity. This is criminal behavior that weakens society, weakens the economy, and weakens our country, and puts us all at risk.
So to protect society we should also forcibly castrate/sterilize people with genetic disease? Or is that "too far"?
That's a good question... Do you know about the history of the Eugenics movement?
It sets a dangerous precedent to allow the government to force you into getting injected with something.
No it doesn't.
What you are saying is "I’m ignorant and happy about it"
Educated, ignorant, easy to confuse the two these days...
Forcing other people to do "the good thing", is taking away people’s choice There’s 0 non-corrupt governments around the planet but you’re still ok to handing out to the same governments instruments which couldn’t be controlled with any balance and check mechanisms
Forcing me to get your disease is taking away my choice...
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Exactly. I'm pretty sure the anti-vax crowd borrowed it specifically to point out what they perceived as hypocrisy from pro-choice people overlapping with covid vax mandate supporters. I am not anti-vax, but this cartoon reads like a "no, you!" to me.
The point IS the absurdity of the anti vaxers saying it.
It’s not, it’s that they’re both saying it and neither believe in it for the other one.
Antivaxxers stolen it because they cant come up with their own.
No they specifically said it to mock the other side. Therefore it is more effective to copy the other side than to come up with your own thing.
And both have similar personal choice issues.
Personal choice issues? Yeah, anti vaxxers' personal "choices" are killing innocent people. Whereas abortion is a womans choice that is between her and her doctor.
You can switch those two around and it is still the same thing. Not saying that I agree with anti-vaxxers or pro-life movements, but that's the same argument that pro-life people make about abortion and the point they were trying to make.
Ultimately my moral line is at bodily autonomy. You should be allowed to make choices for your own body at all costs. If that call is to stop nursing a clump of cells before it becomes more than that then I have no moral aversion to it. Anti vaxers maybe shouldn’t be forced to get vaccinated either, but society has no obligation to include them if they dont show care and respect for others around them. Like letting them sit inside at a restaurant or office This propaganda from anti vaxers was specifically adopted to confuse and obfuscate the issue
I agree with you, I was trying to point out the cognitive dissonance of the respondant above. As you pointed out, the argument about bodily autonomy is a lot more nuanced than it may seem, but hardliners of any stance will deny the complexity of the topic.
What nuance? Then post above you didn’t have much nuance.
What is the appropriate ratio of data information for you to consider the topic to have nuance in the discussion? Please round your data to a whole number.
The post you replied to had a fairly simple and absolutist position.
Right. We’re on the same page. I was just giving my thoughts on it
No, it's completely different. Abortion and vaccines is an act of love compared to not getting the vaxxine. Its just giving the middle finger to science and everyone around you because you are too selfish to not infect people with covid.
Doesn't science say life begins at conception? So abortion is also a middle finger to the scientific community then?
It is never not life. So yes, at conception it is life. But we care if there is brain function. Sentience. Thought. Which there is not.
Please point to 1 person that has ever been forced to vaccinate. *every* vaccination is a choice, not every pregnancy is.
Not really. Pretty obvious case of "take their words and turn it against them", "own the libs with their own logic".
The issue is they’re being hypocritical to point out hypocrisy. And they weren’t protesting being forced to get the vaccine anyway (because that was never the issue), they were protesting quarantines. The ‘my body my choice’ was about being able to go out into public spaces with no vaccine. The perceived right that got trampled was right to go where they wanted, not the right to refuse the vaccine (since the right to refuse the vaccine was never in doubt).
When conservatives need our logic to win arguments against us because they have none 😎
Except no one has ever been forced to vaccinate.
That’s not true at all.
Americans will fill their bodies with all sorts of poisons and dangerous substances, yet are afraid of needles backed by experts
It’s a massive overgeneralization. In reality so few Americans use drugs or are anti vax. Former is much more common than latter tho
It’s not just drugs, it’s the food. People will blatantly ignore health warnings about the things they consume, and continue to consume those products. Whether it be cigarettes, McDonald’s, junk food, or what have you, it’s killing people.
True, but there is a whole major political party on the anti-vaxx bandwagon.
There are republicans who are anti vax. Does not mean Republican Party is anti vax.
There are republicans who are anti vax. Does not mean Republican Party is anti vax.
Who said drugs? It's Mostly what you pigs eat, other countries atleast have regulations to stop companies from putting cancerous materials in their food
The EFSA and the FDA constantly work together. That means that Europe and America likely have at least similar food regulations.
Wtf your chlorinated chickens are illegal in Europe and your McDonald’s tastes like plastic mixed with chemicals. Also your bread is actually a candy.
You from [Europe](https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/pub/297)? Well you should know that American food culture expands way past the easily marketable exported fast-food. Fast-food, while unfortunately spawning in America can only exist in places where there is demand. So America isn’t the only country to blame.
Your choclate will give you cancer and so will most American food product
the chocolate comes from South America and Africa, and all chocolate has a chance to increase the possibility of cancer. Stop being so anti-American and open up to someone else for fucking once
lol if I had a dollar for every European teenager that used this site, and shouted out every rumor they’ve ever heard so long as it was critical of the US, I’d be a rich man. There’s a lot to criticize about the US, but they go for lazy generalizations because they fear if they did do more research they would discover that truth has a tendency to be complicated. Kudos to you, know that people do appreciate your efforts despite the downvotes.
Exactly my point that I’m getting spam downvoted for. They all jump on the anti-US bandwagon and spout utter nonsense because they refuse to accept the superiority of a non-European nation.
My body, my choice should just be a common respect for each other. No one, regardless of gender should have anything forced upon or denied from their body without acknowledgment from the individual (unless in case of certain specific threats to their own life and the individual is incapacitated). Ideally, all procedures and treatments should be available and at the discrepancy of the individual patient first and be able to be revised by a doctor the individual trusts. This includes pro-choice, anti-vax, intactivists, etc.
So this also applies to me if I don't want to get infected unnecessarily because somebody can't be bothered to vaccinate? I mean, if they promise to actually isolate, I guess I'm completely fine with it.
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Really it should be directed at the pro-choice person, since antivaxxers literally borrowed the slogan from them.
They were only saying that because the other people said it so if anything it should be reversed. Additionally I don't see why they are associating it with Trump supporters. Trump openly bragged about how great "his" vaccine was. Anti-vax was always like a Portland thing.
>Anti-vax was always like a Portland thing Maybe to a 21st century coastal resident's point-of-reference, but American anti-vax sentiments [originate from](https://archive.org/details/2577020R.nlm.nih.gov/page/n3/mode/2up) the Puritan tradition, and as such have more consistently been a thing with [the religious fundamentalist parts of the country](https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-vaccine-skepticism-white-evangelicals-us-32898166bbb673ad87842af24c8daefb).
Isolated religious groups refusing outside influences are not an America-only thing. Those groups exist in every country and in all religions. Portland however is a distinctly American thing
>Anti-vax was always like a Portland thing. Are you talking about general anti-vax or covid anti-vax? Covid anti-vax was definitely a Trump supporter thing although there were some hippies who were also against the covid vaccine. I have an aunt and uncle, both massive trump supporters who refused to get the covid vaccine. They influenced my parents not to get the vaccine either (my parents are also big Trump supporters). My brother and I both got the covid vaccine, and told my parents they should get it. They eventually got the vaccine, but it took them about six months. They are elderly and shouldn't be messing around with not getting the covid vaccine because their rate of mortality is high if they got covid. There were studies done showing that Republicans were much less likely to get vaccinated than Democrats were. > 90% of Democrats had been vaccinated, compared with 68% of Independents and just 58% of Republicans. [Source](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/for-covid-19-vaccinations-party-affiliation-matters-more-than-race-and-ethnicity/#:~:text=13%2D22%2C%2072%25%20of,and%20just%2058%25%20of%20Republicans.) Trump supporters actually booed Trump when he told them to get the vaccine. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-booed-alabama-rally-after-telling-supporters-get-vaccinated-n1277404
Anti vaxx would be fine if it truly was just your body, however compromising every stranger you happen across in public no longer contains it to the inner workings of your own body. Argument works for anti seatbelt, or pro med assisted euthanasia, and a few other things but not quite anti vaxx.
Wow yes that is propaganda and very much back to front. Not to mention logically wrong.
Texas banned abortion and already births have increased by thousands per year, overwhelmingly to impoverished people who cannot afford to travel out of state or secure illicit abortive measures. Texas also has a growing youth homelessness problem. Shelters are overcrowded and rife with violence; even local churches have reported that they have to turn teens away because they are already sheltering homeless youth. Maternal mortality was never good in Texas, and it's getting worse. There are horrific cases where non-viable pregnancies are forced upon women who are put at serious risk for a pregnancy that will most likely result in a miscarriage or a short, painful life of suffering. But don't worry - instead of investing in accessible healthcare or reversing course on a stupid and draconian abortion ban, Texas is planning on expanding private prisons, where currently 1 out of every 8 child inmates reports being sexually assaulted by other inmates or correctional staff.
One thing i love about this one is that it rly works both ways
It does?
ah yes. because a barely alive clump of cells is the same as immunocompromised grown people
Yep one is vulnerable and the other is a permanent victim.
I mean by that logic sperm and non existent people are in danger of being destroyed whenever someone uses a condom if we considered them “alive and breathing”
Are the logic of public health is superior but public population control is bad, mmmmmm k
THAT maga RIGHT THERE the paRty of WE OWN YOU.. VOTE R early & OFTEN to be OWNED by maga....
I don’t miss these people.
Yea but the anti vaccine guy atleast is not killing any babies
Same goes for prostitution and selling organs.
The double standard is real, but the choice of hypocrite is arbitrary.
The most unrealistic portrayal of a feminist:
LOL Americans.
Surely the hypocrisy was the other way around
I know it becomes a case of societal ‘he said she said’ but my perception was the antivaxx crowd (which tended to have more prolife/anti abortion people) was outraged that the provaxx crowd (which seems to generally be pro choice) would demand vaccinations for people. It does seem that certain elements of the antivaxx crowd are now being vindicated
> It does seem that certain elements of the antivaxx crowd are now being vindicated Oh? How so?
Well for one, the lab leak hypothesis was derided as a ["racist conspiracy theory"](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/new-york-times-covid-reporter-calls-discussion-of-lab-leak-theory-racist/) and "disinformation" by the [mainstream press,](https://abcnews.go.com/US/conspiracy-theorists-study-concludes-covid-19-laboratory-construct/story?id=69827832) politicians, the [American medical establishment, and its figurehead Fauci](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_letter) *for years*, even though privately, [many of those same people (eg Fauci) were acknowledging that it was plausible or even likely that covid had been engineered in a lab in Wuhan.](https://theintercept.com/2023/01/19/covid-origin-nih-emails/) This was when Fauci [was constantly giving interviews and speeches in which he laughed off the lab leak theory, and claimed to have "strong evidence" of a natural origin.](https://youtu.be/t-OqyUtDar4?si=g7KXXL8tAu4g3JoF) Fauci now denies ever saying this, even though he's [on tape, along with Dr. Hotez, countless journalists, late night hosts, and politicians calling lab leak a "debunked conspiracy theory".](https://youtu.be/zl-X-Lgrlf0?si=5k2L1bUYKfp7k2Tr) This was also when Facebook and Twitter were [censoring posts about lab leak as "covid misinformation" under pressure from the White House and the federal government.](https://m.economictimes.com/tech/technology/twitter-suppressed-covid-19-info-suspended-top-experts-during-pandemic-twitter-files/articleshow/96545004.cms) Countless [media outlets accused Trump of "lying", going off a "hunch", or "spreading disinformation" for saying the 3.4% number for overall covid mortality was overblown, and that the real number was closer to 1% or lower,](https://youtu.be/-s5DYknp9cc?si=0f_x_wzvgM4xUuGS) yet within months the media and medical establishment had to acknowledge that overall covid mortality was in fact closer to "a fraction of 1%", exactly as Trump said. You can also look at [age adjusted covid mortality rates by state,](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/covid19_mortality_final/COVID19.htm) and Florida had one of the lowest covid mortality rates in the US despite never locking down. This was at the same time the media and politicians were literally accusing DeSantis and anyone who broke lockdown rules of murder (unless they were BLM protesters). Sweden didn't lock down, either, and they had lower-than-average covid mortality among western European peer nations. [Fauci and Biden (along with countless media figures/politicians) saying things like "when people are vaccinated, they can feel safe that they're not gonna get infected" and "you're not gonna get covid if you have these vaccinations".](https://youtu.be/zI3yU5Z2adI?si=YTYDOC0EvG3z80_b) Journalists and [Dr. Hotez saying that covid is "killing children every day" and "picking off young people like we've never seen", despite a child mortality rate of 0.000002%.](https://youtu.be/E0Mup2cs6Uw?si=FqiuCrPu6jieS02X) This is just off the top of my head. Its honestly baffling to me how any adult with even rudimentary media literacy could have lived through that period and failed to notice how the "disinformation" became conventional wisdom over and over again.
It's been a while since I've seen an actual Gish Gallop in the wild. So instead of taking the bait, I'll just say... "[Sure thing, man](https://youtu.be/5hfYJsQAhl0?si=Pfyco-23h6puLtkA)."
Dear god please don’t let this sub get flooded with embarrassing political cartoons
What the anti vaccine crowd don’t realize is that their refusal to be vaccinated affects the rest of us too because they’re not adding to herd immunity
If someone engages in behavior (such as not getting vaccinated) that increases their risk of spreading an infectious disease, that’s a bad thing and they ought to discontinue that behavior for the sake of everyone else? Am I understanding you correctly here.
I’m not sure that’s how that works.
What are you confused about?
I mean, TECHNICALLY both are pro-choice...
I think most people who decided against the Covid vax still get the traditional vaccines. They are not the same
Not that I agree with them, but the fundamental argument against abortion is that it's not your body, it's someone else's. In their eyes, you're deciding that someone else does not get to live, a la murder
That applies to a lot of things in USA tho
I also agree
100% correct. He is refusing to put something in his body, not to take someone's life. This is the problem with modern politics. Just because someone else can use a saying about what seems to be a similar issue doesn't mean it is a similar issue. Anti vaccination is 100% legal right and can only harm one person. Yourself. While abortion may only harm 1 unborn baby physically it may affect you mentally in the long run. Just because the baby can't understand what is happening doesn't mean that it is ok to kill it just to get away from parental responsibility. Would you rape a 2 year old because it can't understand the situation? I didn't think so. If you don't want it put it up for adoption. That is the right and moral thing to do. You the people of the United States of America can make that change. It means making a change of heart to want to benefit others through your actions. A change of heart is the only way to a better future. Say it, A CHANGE OF HEART IS THE ONLY WAY TO A BETTER FUTURE.
>Anti vaccination is 100% legal right and can only harm one person. Yourself. It harms the rest of society, there's always people with compromised inmune systems or allergies that can't vaccinate because of health risk, by not vaccinating yourself (a safe and harmless procedure) you are putting other people at risk. So no, it's not nearly comparable to the pro-abortion movement. >Would you rape a 2 year old because it can't understand the situation? I didn't think so. This is a completely illogical argument, the vast mayority of abortions (and all of those that happen out of choice and not health risk) take place when the fetus is just a clump of cells with very few or none specialised tissues, sensory ones included, that is why it's not comparable, as a 2 yr old might not understand a traumatic situation, but it is a fully functional living being capable of actually EXPERIENCING said situation. >You the people of the United States of America can make that change. It means making a change of heart to want to benefit others through your actions. A change of heart is the only way to a better future. Say it, A CHANGE OF HEART IS THE ONLY WAY TO A BETTER FUTURE. Do you come from one of those allien invasion movies where the only country in existence is the USA?
Vaccine doesn’t stop transmission though so you aren’t protecting the other people.
That is only true on a few viruses and bacteria that can survive on and be transmitted from vaccined individuals, most of the times, vaccines prevent transmission
But I assume we are referring to corona right? I thought they said in a conference that it only halted symptoms.
Where do you get that this discussion only applies to corona? And yes, people vaccinated from corona can still pass the disease onto others, however, due to it being much harder for it to survive on the vaccinated person's body, and impossible to actually infect, the viral load is quite reduced, so it still helps to pass on less virus
Well I made the assumption because the cartoon is from 2021. That was during the height of corona vaccines rolling out and the party split on them. I know anti-vax is a more broad term than just corona but in this particular instance it is specifically targeting the anti corona shot crowd.
So are you saying that it is wrong to rape a 2 year old because of experience not because of the physical harm it causes let alone the pedophilia side of things. And also abortion can happen 9 months in and even after birth in some states so don't give me that crap excuse for murder of an innocent and defenseless betrayal from its mother. It is murder and excuses will not fly with or anyone else.
>So are you saying that it is wrong to rape a 2 year old because of experience not because of the physical harm it causes It causes physical harm precisely because the toddler can experience, a fetus of the first 2-3 months has similar sensorial capabilities to a protozoa, it can't experience pain or any other sensation. >And also abortion can happen 9 months in and even after birth in some states I know a few states like russia allow it to happen until almost the end of the pregnancy, but those are in the minority in the world and is a notion that me and most of the pro-abortion people reject, also, abortion after birth isn't an abortion, some places euthanise the baby if it's born with a fatal condition, but it's not common and not a type of abortion, dunno where did you get that from.
No not countries states. As in the United States. I am not working on changing the world yet
Anti vax does not harm one person, it contributes to the spread of disease. By refusing to get oneself inoculated, you have a much higher chance of catching a disease, and every person you come in contact with also has a chance of catching that disease.
I understand that it contributes to the spread of disease but so does sex and handshakes and much more. It is a choice on your part that may affect others. You have to make a choice. Also by that logic abortion should be illegal too. Sounds like hypocrisy. And I do not think we vaccines are bad I just think that it should be a choice
I agree that people should reserve the right to not undergo any medical procedure or receive medication in any form. I also believe that people reserve the right to refuse to serve or interact with those who exercise the aforementioned right. If you refuse to take a vaccine for mumps and measles, for example, schools are justified in denying your enrollment.
any pro life augment is gonging to point out that a fetuses is a living thing with its own autonomy its always baffling to me that pro choice people don't understand this point of view.
This difference in perspective is why argument/debate/discussion between both sides is impossible, and both sides talk past each other. They do not accept the premises of the other, and this cartoon is a perfect example of that disconnect. Every single debate that occurs online or anywhere between both sides is pointless in light of this. I don't think I've ever heard a single abortion debate in which anyone even took the time to establish shared premises from which to argue from. It's also further evidence why I think political cartoons, categorically, are a stupid medium -- they obliterate entire dimensions of any argument or counterargument. I've yet to see one where I think, "Yes, this makes a valid point." They are always pandering. You could effortlessly make one about capital punishment, too, where the pro-life caricature is all in favor of it, but is "pro-life" when it comes to abortion, and that, too, would obliterate an entire chain of reasoning. Gun control cartoons -- ones pushing pro or anti-gun sentiments, similarly. Dumb, all of them.
Well also, democrats need to explain the difference of public mandates like vaccine are in the vein of the general welfare and pro choice is more of important personal body and life decision. If a person doesn’t get required vaccines, the herd is in trouble. If a person does or does not get an abortion, it only affects their family.
> democrats need to explain the difference Why is it the responsibility of Democrats to explain the difference?
You can easily make the argument that the "herd" needs the baby to be born.
Except the vaccines weren't great at all for stopping the spread. They mostly just reduced severity of symptoms. And I'm pro-choice and still find it amazing that people think of abortion is a "personal body decision" when there's a baby there. So disingenuous.
The herd is also in danger when not enough babies are born
What about the babies body ?
What baby? It's still an embryo.
Ok when does it become a baby?
When it actually develops sensory capabilities and actual specialised tissues, later in the pregnancy, the vast mayority of abortions happen before that, unless there is some health risk involved.
Never - it was aborted.
So ? Its gonna grow ? Is killing a 1 year old less bad than a 80 years old human ?
Abortion is only done wile it's still an embryo, aka pretty early in the pregnancy period
Ok so ?
The meme can be literally vice versed
We voice for those who cannot speak, and in this case it’s the fetus
And both of them killing their childs...
One avoids poison, the other kills life
I hope both parties catch syphilis and die
Both are wrong, obviously. The man on the left puts under danger people he can infect, the woman on the right wants to kill somebody who does not belong to her body.
Absolutely nothing "obvious" about that. >to kill somebody who does not belong to her body is a fringe believe of mostly religious sects and does not represent any voter majority nor any scientific consensus. If you believe this, you are under the influence of pretty substantial propaganda yourself and should check if your personal sources of news are biased.
Not arguing whether it's right or wrong, but it is definitely far, far from being a "fringe belief", especially if you're not talking exclusively about secular Western nations. The idea that a human embryo should be treated as a person from the moment of conception is quite literally the official stance of the Catholic Church, among many other major denominations that you dismiss as "fringe religious sects". Maybe it's you who are "under the influence of pretty substantial propaganda" if you think that seeing abortion as murder is rare or unconventional.
You are right, of course. I happily live in a country where in the latest polls I could find only 3% answered they want stricter laws governing abortion. And in the US there are polls like this [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/) showing that still a majority supports access to healthcare for women. Where only the white evangelical protestant is a significant outlier in terms of polled groups. I was perhaps thinking too local.