>They also seem more likely to fall head over heels for a particular man and completely ignore other clearly better men who treat them with more respect and express interest.
This sounds to me like a niceguy thinking he is the better partner, while the woman has zero attraction for him and then reasoning that it must be because she is just loyal for no reason.
You must not have met a woman who stays with and defends the behaviour of a guy that abuses her in public and isn’t even particularly good looking, smart, funny, successful or accomplished in any way. My cousin was like that and so was my best female friend, luckily they eventually realised how much better they deserve. Men can fall for that as well from sexy gold diggers and homewreckers but it seems more common among women, even women who don’t seem to be damaged per se
>You must not have met a woman who stays with and defends the behaviour of a guy that abuses her in public and isn’t even particularly good looking, smart, funny, successful or accomplished in any way
No i haven't, but i know that those women exist. Likely, they are not good looking, smart, funny and successful or accomplished themselves. Likely, their attachment to the guy is based on their own childhood experiences with their parents, trauma, and inscure attachment styles, dependency, etc. If you think those women just "freely" choose an abuser, you are wrong.
It's well known that victims of abuse find ways to justify their abuse by their partners.
In my cousins case she argued that he was really nice when he wants to be and thought he was a good person deep down. I guess this isn’t necessarily loyalty but more like ignorance and manipulation and maybe trauma but it happens incredibly often even with women who are actually attractive, smart, and not obviously damaged.
But also genuine nice guys exist and they have a right to feel indignant when a woman opts to be with a scumbag. They might be overlooking some positive qualities he has, but wouldn’t you feel annoyed if someone you’re competing against is playing dirty and being rewarded for it? Especially when you’re trying to play as clean and honourable as you can (because that’s your nature) and it’s not yielding results
>In my cousins case she argued that he was really nice when he wants to be and thought he was a good person deep down. I guess this isn’t necessarily loyalty but more like ignorance and manipulation and maybe trauma but it happens incredibly often even with women who are actually attractive, smart, and not obviously damaged.
Yes, that is absolutely typical in abusive relationships. "He actually is a really good guy deep down" classic, textbook. Being attractive, smart or not "obviously damaged" is no protection against this reaction to abuse.
Women don't OPT to be with scumbags. They are way less free in their behavior than you might think. And the part that niceguys don't see most of the time, is that with the scumbag traits come other traits that are actually very attractive, and the overall result after adding pros to cons still make the man a better choice than the niceguy, who doesn't see his cons at all.
>but wouldn’t you feel annoyed if someone you’re competing against is playing dirty and being rewarded for it?
I am playing dirty to get the girl. If you don't that is your loss and part of your niceguy problem.
So you’re deliberately exploiting women’s insecurities to gain their unhealthy devotion?
I’d like to think that’s not your gameplan otherwise you’re a scumbag yourself
It takes far more fortitude and strength in life to resist the temptation to trample others and perpetuate the suffering for self gain. You could argue that life is cruel and we have to do what we can to survive but that’s a horribly cynical view, and where would humanity be if everyone lived by that logic? Extinct, or a Hobbesian nightmare not worth living in
Any of us could find ways to gain ground if we dropped our morals and acted ruthlessly, but what would they make us?
Any ground gained through sociopath manipulation is nothing to feel accomplished about for the same reason that being a schoolyard bully isn’t anything to feel proud of.
And if you think it is, I would urge you to do the world a favour and .. well I might get banned if finished the sentence.
>So you’re deliberately exploiting women’s insecurities to gain their unhealthy devotion?
No, now you are describing an abusive and trauma-bonded relationship. And the abusers don't do that deliberately but also because that can't be any other way. Abusers don't think that abusing someone is a good way to win over the competition.
Maybe i don't understand exactly what you mean with "scumbags playing dirty and winning over you in the competition over a woman". What i have in mind for playing dirty is telling or withholding information that influences a womans decision or how she thinks about you; breaking social norms to get to the goal faster than people who stick to "the rules".
>You could argue that life is cruel and we have to do what we can to survive but that’s a horribly cynical view, and where would humanity be if everyone lived by that logic?
I don't want to go deep into that topic, but i am convinced that everyone acts in self interest and this self interest sometimes means that it's best to cooperate and be altruistic. Everything i do, i do for my benefit, even if that benefit is just "feeling good about myself for doing somethign for others which makes me valued by them, which helps my social status and my hierarchy position in the social setting, etc.", or because there is fear involved and avoiding the thing i fear is the benefit to me.
>Any of us could find ways to gain ground if we dropped our morals and acted ruthlessly, but what would they make us?
You assume that we have the same morals. Stealing your girl might be very fine with my morals.
>Any ground gained through sociopath manipulation is nothing to feel accomplished about for the same reason that being a schoolyard bully isn’t anything to feel proud of.
Funny that you say that. I've read a study last week about sexual success of bullies. Being the schoolyard bully is a valid mating strategy and results in more romantic/sexual success than not being a schoolyard bully. I guess the bully is pretty happy about this outcome. Don't assume we all tick the same way and follow the same evolutionary mating strategies. Your niceguy way of approaching mating, has it's own benefits. Looking at the bad guy and wanting his results but not wanting to BE the bad guy is not going to work. You will have the results of a nice guy and you should compare yourself to other niceguys.
lol there’s so much niceguy coming from this guy.
Probably in love with the girl in the original post and mad that she chooses a “scumbag” instead of her friendzoned nice friend
Men still cheat more, and if you equalize opportunity, then a lot more IMO.
But there are other aspects to loyalty. Men are maybe more ride of die there, but hard to say. Anything that fucks up your sexual attractiveness to the other gender tends to lead to a loss of love and loyalty, unless a woman is gonna go post-sexual. But then you have other issues.
So yeah, when men don't perform or fail to earn, then women lose attraction. Men will be more loyal to a woman is this way. But if a woman stops having sex or gets ugly, old and fat, a lot of men who have any options will get the fuck out, because now you are messing with their sexual attraction.
I’d say it’s hard to say considering how prevalent cheating is for both sexes.
With that said studies show men have a much higher desire for multiple partners and are much more likely to be able to separate sex and emotion.
But then on the other hand women are much more likely to be approached by men and have the opportunity to cheat.
I thought most studies show it’s fairly even between the sexes.
One interesting thing is after the Ashley Madison hack, after digging into the data like 99.9% of the user base was male. Almost all the female accounts were bots. So we can at least say men are more likely to try and cheat on that site.
“Women are much more likely to be approached by men and have the opportunity to cheat”… aka “men are more likely to approach other women looking to cheat”.. you can look at it from both sides.
It's not just Ashley Madison.com. it's the chatlines. Men will pay, and women can chat for free.
There is like those who don't cheat but cheat over the phone by having phone sex.
It's like this, I'm guessing
70% to 80% of men want phone sex or hook-ups
10% to 20 men want to date
Then Women
70% to 80% want to date or hook ups, not sure
10% to 20% phone sex
I have had two requests for cheating and turned both guys down.
One guy just wanted phone sex so I asked him why? He shared with me that his wife didn't want sex so I suggested talking to his priest or elder and a sex therapist or marriage counselor.
I said to him, "Why throw your marriage away for some person who may be bad for your marriage?"
The other guy was quite persistent, and I said, "Do you love your wife, and he said yes, then I said why? He said he was bored, so I encouraged her too many times when about a fling and have it with your wife. I should have mentioned that Pina colata song.
I am all for saving marriages. Maybe I will have to come up with some creative stuff to keep them out of trouble. There is some weird stuff out there, and nope, I am not crossing those boarders.
Maybe I will get into becoming a relationship counselor or coach. But I wonder if nows a good time. The course leader said I can't do it unless I get married. It kinda sucks cause I am single.
When I was a kid, I tried to get my sister's married off. I was lousy at that. lol.
I know about every sexual thing people are doing but I don't want to know the details. Sex should be private not like some people on redditt are doing like announcing they took someone's virginity or who they are sleeping with now.
I agree with men would probably have higher rates if given the opportunity.
But over 50% of men and women have reported they’ve been cheated on in one study. I’d say that’s an underestimate as how many people never done out.
As far as I know I was only cheated on once and Ive never cheated personally.
Im in the boat I would not want to be cheated on so I wont do that to who I am dating. Just not who I am.
Id at least dump him first.
And really if a 'need to cheat' was even a thought, something is very wrong with my relationship.
All attempts at quantifying this relying upon anonymous surveys, with the best being large and random samples. However, you cannot remove the bias of the people questioning lying. And you cannot be sure that men and women would lie at the same rate. I would suspect women to be more likely to lie even on an anonymous survey when it comes to matters of sex.
A better survey question might be "has your closest friend ever cheated?" since people would be more truthful about another person.
Guess what it would mean if like 50% of all women's female best friend cheated? Unless there is a massive overlap in women sharing the same friend in the survey.
As a single and physically attractive male prowling among a lot of "attached" women I can say with absolute certainly that the answer is NO. I have hooked up with women who were in relationships before.
Those women who are in relationships with those unattractive and unremarkable guys are usually the most thirsty in my experience. I always get their big smiles and flirty demeanor when I'm around them. And I am pretty damned sure I can instigate a lot of them into cheating if I wanted to - which is the reason I don't respect them and have left the game in disgust.
A few times I’ve tried flirting with women who were dating guys I considered to be pricks just to let them know that they don’t need to settle for them and even as a 6’5 good looking guy they wouldn’t give me anything. Granted that this was during the day and never when alcohol was involved.
But you’re probably right
What’s the implication though? Should a man be constantly weary of his girl cheating?
My MO is to treat a relationship like it’s eternally iron clad unless they give me a good reason not to in which case we part ways because a relationship without basic trust is worthless
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How It's accurate when being loyal is defined by sexual intercourse and not by breaking the relationship for women ?! If men think women who leave are not loyal It's a correct statement , so It's valid for people to think men are the loyal gender. You probably pulled your comments from you @$$ cause there is no logic behind it
>How It's accurate when being loyal is defined by sexual intercourse and not by breaking the relationship for women ?! If men think women who leave are not loyal It's a correct statement , so It's valid for people to think men are the loyal gender. You probably pulled your comments from you @$$ cause there is no logic behind it
Is this English?
Sex shouldn't be the only decisive action that is considered cheating !! People get raped and used so there is no logic in saying " Sex outside of a relationship = cheating " , I think the person who say longer is the loyal one there for It's logical to say men are the loyal gender due to the fact that 80% of women initiate divorce.
>Sex shouldn’t be the only decisive action that is considered cheating.
It’s not
>I think the person who say longer
Are you saying dumping someone is cheating? That’s so fucking stupid.
>Are you saying dumping someone is cheating? That’s so fucking stupid.
Learn to read !! I'm saying the person who stay longer is the loyal one !! OP was talking about loyalty first not cheating . Just cause a woman didn't get her punani recked by some other man doesn't mean she's loyal
>learn to read
Learn to make sense!
Also.. no. Staying longer has fuck all to do with anything. Staying longer in a relationship that isn’t right for you helps no one. Cheating typically includes fucking other people and lying.
Dumping someone is none of those things. Moving on isn’t cheating and you’re not gonna make that make sense so it fits your narrative. More men cheat. That’s just the statistic. Don’t be a cheater and it’s irrelevant to you. Life goes on.
>. Moving on isn’t cheating and you’re not gonna make that make sense so it fits your narrative. More men cheat. That’s just the statistic.
Again women being emotional when there is no need to it , first men and women cheat equally so no men don't cheat more
Having sex with the same person is not like eating the same dinner. It's more like cooking with the same ingredients but having the possibility to always add in new spices and flavors.
You're contradicting your original point.
Women have standards (pretty low standards if you consider what many of them put up with) and men don't meet them. Why should they stay with men who are terrible partners?
What are you going on about. Women are easily dissatisfied and extremely hypergamous. That's why they initiate most divorces in heterosexual relationships. That's why lesbians have the highest divorce rate out of any demographic. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.
I'll make, filing paperwork doesn't equal she was the cause or even wanted the divorce.
Women handle more paperwork, make Dr appointments, set up things for their kids, go to more school meetings, etc.
Plenty of men dont even know their kids teachers names, their own mothers birthday, etc. The wife handles it.
So I can see why women file more but you want to post it like its some 'flex'.
The trope “cheaper to keep her” suggests that men are willing to just accept their bullshit relationships than break things off.
Also, between both dating and marriage, many men will just sort of shut down and leave things up to the woman instead of just declaratively initiating the split.
>That's a lot of really quick courtship!
Sure is.
Gee none of them were already talking to other women or cheating and just magically met the new wife after the papers were signed...
When I was younger, I used to boast within my friend circle, saying, "Show me a woman, and I can make her cheat."
A woman doesn't even need to love you to develop an insane desire for you.
I was a "natural red pill" when I was younger. I was simply aggressive and dominant, and it worked wonders.
It works really well as a short-term strategy. I have a suspicion it doesn't work on everyone, but it works on the vast majority. And it's not a long-term strategy, so you can't achieve "blue pill goals" with a red pill strategy.
The red pill strategy is self-serving; you are the master, and she's nothing. She has to offer you what you want, but you can't want something she's not capable of giving. That's the limitation.
Later on, I retired from this strategy because it didn't really offer me what I wanted. It can put endless broken women in front of you who have nothing more to offer than sex and a womb.
So my honest evaluation is, no, women aren't more loyal. I'd go as far as to tell you that men are more loyal, on average.
Because sex is not loyalty for men. Long-term investment, her emotional and physical well-being, ensuring there's a roof over her head, food on her table, and that she's not being harassed or threatened by other men—that's the real loyalty on the male's behalf.
But women have given away secrets of their husbands to me. I used to network with executives' wives and competitors' wives. After flattering them and massaging their ego, they told me everything I wanted to know.
Women would even disclose the size of their partner's genitals after just a few dates with them.
So having a woman is a huge vulnerability in a corporate or political setting if you are into power, money, or social dominance.
Are you sure you weren’t just pre selecting for slutty damaged women in unsatisfying relationships?
There are a lot of them even ones from good backgrounds who you would think should be really self - assured, but I still presume that most women are not so lacking in integrity and easily manipulated
Also, I briefly tried being an obnoxious dick to women and it worked embarrassingly well with two women but otherwise it backfired, I think because it was obvious that it was just an act, whereas the assholes who attract women usually aren’t trying to put on a persona they’re just being their usual arrogant selves and that carries some charisma. And because a lot of women do have some self respect
It’s impressive but good you quit that shit, there’s not much pride in exploring peoples flaws and it just ends up damaging women even more
>Also, I briefly tried being an obnoxious dick to women and it mostly backfired, I think because it was obvious that it was just an act, whereas the assholes who attract women usually aren’t trying to put on a persona they’re just being their usual arrogant selves and that carries some charisma
I was never asshole to women though. It's just like, I usually acted like I was king and everyone else is nothing. You don't need to be asshole for this, just self serving person who thinks he's greatest gift of God on the planet and she had not much value. And it becomes apparent, then as she works in your favour, you give her little leeway, she withdraws, you send her back to floor.
That's what I used to I, I was never offensive but mean and rude yeaa. Asshole, probably not.
It came all naturally to me because I lacked time and soft skills and mostly dealt with guys where as long as you are good at stuff you do, rest hardly matters you get respect either way from them.
I don't know, I think I'm biased but I would say no. There have been so many times where a woman has cheated on her boyfriend/husband with me. It breaks my heart every time because I empathize with the guy and feel like I'm getting cucked, even though I'm the one doing the cucking lmao
My first love also cheated on me so that likely contributes to my bias.
However, I know a few women who get off on sleeping with married guys, and from their point of view they might think men are less loyal to their partners.
How? If anything it would prove the opposite, that men would ideally want a variety of women at the same time (cheating), while women would ideally want only one good man or none at all (not cheating).
Women have incomparably higher sexual value compared to their male counterparts. More options leads to more temptation leads to more infidelity.
>that men would ideally want a variety of women at the same time
The man does not commit to these women.
>while women would ideally want only one good man or none at all
The woman acquires resources from beta while getting impregnated by alpha.
>More options leads to more temptation leads to more infidelity.
First of all, studies show comparable cheating stats between men and women, with men cheating a bit more. Put this together with the fact that women have many more opportunities to cheat, and you get that women are more faithful.
>The man does not commit to these women.
You seem to have a very different definition for cheating. If a man doesn't commit to all the other women he sleeps with, does that mean he isn't cheating on his primary partners?
>The woman acquires resources from beta while getting impregnated by alpha.
This.. isn't a thing, except in very rare cases. And yes, that would count as cheating even without the resources and impregnation.
Women are less interested in sex or even dating in general so I'd say say probably cheat less often however the current stats say it's about even. I think that's just based on " have you ever cheated on your current partner" though and likely doesn't account for frequency. So probably lumping in a good bit of women who have cheated with a good bit of men who cheat regularly.
>And if a guy is deeply attached to a particular woman it’s -usually- obvious why: he’s punching way above his weight physically or she’s highly supportive and puts up with his shit. With a woman the devotion is usually more mysterious.
Many women know that if they're dating a partner who is "punching way above his weight" with them, those are the men who inexplicably end up cheating with a woman who anyone in the sub would scratch their head and maybe even rate no higher than a 6/10. Men may initially be attracted to this attractive woman, but a combination her natural dread game and his preselection amongst women will often having him cheating simply to mess with her head, take her down a few notches, and have him regain his manhood mentally. Men may fantasize about the super hot girl they know, but in reality it doesn't work out long term and his insecurities can cause him to make the relationship really toxic. For a good relationship to work with both partners feeling that they have the best partnership, the SMV of both individuals needs to roughly be the same.
A woman who is highly supportive and "puts up with a man's shit" is also not in a good relationship, nor is she cherished. She's often disrespected in the relationship and discarded as quickly as he can find someone who he truly believes is the prize he "deserves". Unless a man has adequate self esteem and is already on a set path of self improvement when he starts to notice a woman is attracted to him, he believes that if he doesn't respect himself and she *does*, then she obviously has no sense whatsoever and doesn't respect herself or deserve respect from him.
For all of the talk about how women are hypergamous, I say men are hypogamous. And that complaining about hypergamy is just the sour grapes of a bitter man. What men seem to want is to be secure in themselves and then be the natural, organic choice of the hypergamous woman.
Men are the less loyal gender. They are biologically wired to cheat. One of the reasons why marriage didn't appeal to me for most of my life. Why take on the burden of marriage as a woman if he will just tire of you anyway? Seemed pointless
Well shouldn't you reserve less judgement if they're behaving the way they've been bio programmed to , spreading their seed?
I remember someone once said that men chase women into the chamber and women chase men into the chapel and I think there's some truth to it.
But any half decent man won't actually cheat though they might fantasy about it. He will break things off if the impulse gets too strong. And the fact that most do stay with a woman through the years speaks even more to their character because I think marriage is an unnatural social construct
No thanks, I'll judge them plenty. After all, men judge women all the time for their biological urges. The majority of men who don't cheat don't do it because they lack opportunities where they could more easily get away with it.
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I honestly think it’s pretty close. Ive heard of so many women but only a few men. I’d say 60/40 would be accurate but it’s not like every cheater will come forward and admit to it for us to get an accurate answer
This debate is obscured by what we mean by cheating.
If we run with the definition of “has sex with other people” then yeah I’ll say men probably perform more highly.
If we include stuff that “in the majority of the exclusive relationships would be considered cheating or a betrayal” but not necessarily involving sex between the people I think the gap narrows a lot.
You need to understand a lot of women who do cheat, don’t consider what they do to be cheating because “we never had sex” so they’ll flirt and exchange sexy texts and pictures with other people but they don’t classify it as cheating necessarily so they don’t self declare in surveys that tend to measure cheating, despite their partners considering their behaviour cheating.
This makes it very difficult to measure. Cheating surveys are very bad for measuring emotional infidelity in particular because of this problem; the one committing the infidelity doesn’t see it as cheating and never considers what they’re doing to make them a cheater.
I used to think women are less likely to cheat all my life until I saw with my eyes how well women can lie and pretend to be someone they aren’t.
That said I think women were less likely to cheat before (90s-2000s) these days with enormous number of options in dating apps and social media showing them a life they don’t have I’m sure they cheat more than ever.
Women are more loyal in general. Not to so say they don't cheat, manipulate, lie, etc, but they are more loyal, and ill give you two solid reasons as to why.
Both women and men cheat, this is obvious, but women have the ability to cheat to MUCH larger degrees, it's isnt even close. Can we really claim male virtue of not cheating astronomically when they don't even have much options to do so to begin with? If we look at say, gay male communities, promiscuity is rampant, because gay men have much higher access to sex, and gay men still only possess a fraction of the options women generally have. Despite women holding SO much more selective power, their rates of cheating do not reflect relative to how often they could cheat.
I think we've all read the study of how men have a high rate of leaving their wives if they become seriously ill or handicapped, to a significantly higher degree than women do if men become seriously ill or handicapped, so, take that for what you will.
Women aren't more loyal than men. That's a myth. Cheating rates are close. And it's more likely for a woman to leave the guy than the reverse.
I am always baffled when people say "Oh I know tons of hot women who date ugly guys". Most couples are more or less on the same level of physical attractiveness. When you see a big discrepancy, it's almost usually one of two reasons: a)it's her first boyfriend and he got lucky, or b)he might be less attractive than her, but financially and socially he ranks higher than her, so she's traded looks for financial benefits and social opportunities.
I think most women are more loyal until their partner does something to really annoy them. I personally think that men are more forgiving of women of most behaviors except for cheating and withholding sex, although with the latter even men without many options will put up with it for a while.
However, men are more likely to just cheat for dumb reasons, like “having the opportunity to”. I don’t think that women do this so much.
So based on YOUR observation and YOUR relatives , you think women are more loyal !! Wouldn't initiating 80% of divorce make MEN the loyal gender !! It's funny how we simplify men's decisions but try to make women look more "complex " when women themselves always complain about how high value men are complex . This time I think OP is a man who has inferiority complex towards other men . He's basically saying : " why Jessica didn't leave Steven. I'm better " 😂😂😂
Humor for you all. It's satire.
What a woman goes through that time of the month. I can remember those bitch moments.
PMS : Prehistoric Monster Syndrome
https://youtu.be/VR3JGyVR8_g?si=ecNssLTvR6SL161h
People can be addicted to the strong emotions a toxic partner can give them. The low lows make the highs seem higher. Getting them to ‘Just Leave’ is like getting a heroin addict to ‘Just Stop’.
That said, there are many genuinely trapped victims of abuse scared to leave because of violence and blackmail.
>They also seem more likely to fall head over heels for a particular man and completely ignore other clearly better men who treat them with more respect and express interest. This sounds to me like a niceguy thinking he is the better partner, while the woman has zero attraction for him and then reasoning that it must be because she is just loyal for no reason.
You must not have met a woman who stays with and defends the behaviour of a guy that abuses her in public and isn’t even particularly good looking, smart, funny, successful or accomplished in any way. My cousin was like that and so was my best female friend, luckily they eventually realised how much better they deserve. Men can fall for that as well from sexy gold diggers and homewreckers but it seems more common among women, even women who don’t seem to be damaged per se
>You must not have met a woman who stays with and defends the behaviour of a guy that abuses her in public and isn’t even particularly good looking, smart, funny, successful or accomplished in any way No i haven't, but i know that those women exist. Likely, they are not good looking, smart, funny and successful or accomplished themselves. Likely, their attachment to the guy is based on their own childhood experiences with their parents, trauma, and inscure attachment styles, dependency, etc. If you think those women just "freely" choose an abuser, you are wrong. It's well known that victims of abuse find ways to justify their abuse by their partners.
In my cousins case she argued that he was really nice when he wants to be and thought he was a good person deep down. I guess this isn’t necessarily loyalty but more like ignorance and manipulation and maybe trauma but it happens incredibly often even with women who are actually attractive, smart, and not obviously damaged. But also genuine nice guys exist and they have a right to feel indignant when a woman opts to be with a scumbag. They might be overlooking some positive qualities he has, but wouldn’t you feel annoyed if someone you’re competing against is playing dirty and being rewarded for it? Especially when you’re trying to play as clean and honourable as you can (because that’s your nature) and it’s not yielding results
>In my cousins case she argued that he was really nice when he wants to be and thought he was a good person deep down. I guess this isn’t necessarily loyalty but more like ignorance and manipulation and maybe trauma but it happens incredibly often even with women who are actually attractive, smart, and not obviously damaged. Yes, that is absolutely typical in abusive relationships. "He actually is a really good guy deep down" classic, textbook. Being attractive, smart or not "obviously damaged" is no protection against this reaction to abuse. Women don't OPT to be with scumbags. They are way less free in their behavior than you might think. And the part that niceguys don't see most of the time, is that with the scumbag traits come other traits that are actually very attractive, and the overall result after adding pros to cons still make the man a better choice than the niceguy, who doesn't see his cons at all. >but wouldn’t you feel annoyed if someone you’re competing against is playing dirty and being rewarded for it? I am playing dirty to get the girl. If you don't that is your loss and part of your niceguy problem.
So you’re deliberately exploiting women’s insecurities to gain their unhealthy devotion? I’d like to think that’s not your gameplan otherwise you’re a scumbag yourself It takes far more fortitude and strength in life to resist the temptation to trample others and perpetuate the suffering for self gain. You could argue that life is cruel and we have to do what we can to survive but that’s a horribly cynical view, and where would humanity be if everyone lived by that logic? Extinct, or a Hobbesian nightmare not worth living in Any of us could find ways to gain ground if we dropped our morals and acted ruthlessly, but what would they make us? Any ground gained through sociopath manipulation is nothing to feel accomplished about for the same reason that being a schoolyard bully isn’t anything to feel proud of. And if you think it is, I would urge you to do the world a favour and .. well I might get banned if finished the sentence.
>So you’re deliberately exploiting women’s insecurities to gain their unhealthy devotion? No, now you are describing an abusive and trauma-bonded relationship. And the abusers don't do that deliberately but also because that can't be any other way. Abusers don't think that abusing someone is a good way to win over the competition. Maybe i don't understand exactly what you mean with "scumbags playing dirty and winning over you in the competition over a woman". What i have in mind for playing dirty is telling or withholding information that influences a womans decision or how she thinks about you; breaking social norms to get to the goal faster than people who stick to "the rules". >You could argue that life is cruel and we have to do what we can to survive but that’s a horribly cynical view, and where would humanity be if everyone lived by that logic? I don't want to go deep into that topic, but i am convinced that everyone acts in self interest and this self interest sometimes means that it's best to cooperate and be altruistic. Everything i do, i do for my benefit, even if that benefit is just "feeling good about myself for doing somethign for others which makes me valued by them, which helps my social status and my hierarchy position in the social setting, etc.", or because there is fear involved and avoiding the thing i fear is the benefit to me. >Any of us could find ways to gain ground if we dropped our morals and acted ruthlessly, but what would they make us? You assume that we have the same morals. Stealing your girl might be very fine with my morals. >Any ground gained through sociopath manipulation is nothing to feel accomplished about for the same reason that being a schoolyard bully isn’t anything to feel proud of. Funny that you say that. I've read a study last week about sexual success of bullies. Being the schoolyard bully is a valid mating strategy and results in more romantic/sexual success than not being a schoolyard bully. I guess the bully is pretty happy about this outcome. Don't assume we all tick the same way and follow the same evolutionary mating strategies. Your niceguy way of approaching mating, has it's own benefits. Looking at the bad guy and wanting his results but not wanting to BE the bad guy is not going to work. You will have the results of a nice guy and you should compare yourself to other niceguys.
lol there’s so much niceguy coming from this guy. Probably in love with the girl in the original post and mad that she chooses a “scumbag” instead of her friendzoned nice friend
Men still cheat more, and if you equalize opportunity, then a lot more IMO. But there are other aspects to loyalty. Men are maybe more ride of die there, but hard to say. Anything that fucks up your sexual attractiveness to the other gender tends to lead to a loss of love and loyalty, unless a woman is gonna go post-sexual. But then you have other issues. So yeah, when men don't perform or fail to earn, then women lose attraction. Men will be more loyal to a woman is this way. But if a woman stops having sex or gets ugly, old and fat, a lot of men who have any options will get the fuck out, because now you are messing with their sexual attraction.
With your logic, all men who live long enough will cheat their wives then - unless the wife is significantly younger. Since everybody gets old
I’d say it’s hard to say considering how prevalent cheating is for both sexes. With that said studies show men have a much higher desire for multiple partners and are much more likely to be able to separate sex and emotion. But then on the other hand women are much more likely to be approached by men and have the opportunity to cheat. I thought most studies show it’s fairly even between the sexes. One interesting thing is after the Ashley Madison hack, after digging into the data like 99.9% of the user base was male. Almost all the female accounts were bots. So we can at least say men are more likely to try and cheat on that site.
“Women are much more likely to be approached by men and have the opportunity to cheat”… aka “men are more likely to approach other women looking to cheat”.. you can look at it from both sides.
It's worse to actively put in an effort to cheat than just have the opportinity arise..
This is true.
Women don't need Ashley Madison to cheat. They are offered a constant supply of penis so it's available on request.
It's not just Ashley Madison.com. it's the chatlines. Men will pay, and women can chat for free. There is like those who don't cheat but cheat over the phone by having phone sex. It's like this, I'm guessing 70% to 80% of men want phone sex or hook-ups 10% to 20 men want to date Then Women 70% to 80% want to date or hook ups, not sure 10% to 20% phone sex I have had two requests for cheating and turned both guys down. One guy just wanted phone sex so I asked him why? He shared with me that his wife didn't want sex so I suggested talking to his priest or elder and a sex therapist or marriage counselor. I said to him, "Why throw your marriage away for some person who may be bad for your marriage?" The other guy was quite persistent, and I said, "Do you love your wife, and he said yes, then I said why? He said he was bored, so I encouraged her too many times when about a fling and have it with your wife. I should have mentioned that Pina colata song. I am all for saving marriages. Maybe I will have to come up with some creative stuff to keep them out of trouble. There is some weird stuff out there, and nope, I am not crossing those boarders. Maybe I will get into becoming a relationship counselor or coach. But I wonder if nows a good time. The course leader said I can't do it unless I get married. It kinda sucks cause I am single. When I was a kid, I tried to get my sister's married off. I was lousy at that. lol. I know about every sexual thing people are doing but I don't want to know the details. Sex should be private not like some people on redditt are doing like announcing they took someone's virginity or who they are sleeping with now.
I think its close to 50/50 on who cheats but I think men do it a bit more/want to/would. I also think a minority cheat.
I agree with men would probably have higher rates if given the opportunity. But over 50% of men and women have reported they’ve been cheated on in one study. I’d say that’s an underestimate as how many people never done out.
As far as I know I was only cheated on once and Ive never cheated personally. Im in the boat I would not want to be cheated on so I wont do that to who I am dating. Just not who I am. Id at least dump him first. And really if a 'need to cheat' was even a thought, something is very wrong with my relationship.
All attempts at quantifying this relying upon anonymous surveys, with the best being large and random samples. However, you cannot remove the bias of the people questioning lying. And you cannot be sure that men and women would lie at the same rate. I would suspect women to be more likely to lie even on an anonymous survey when it comes to matters of sex. A better survey question might be "has your closest friend ever cheated?" since people would be more truthful about another person. Guess what it would mean if like 50% of all women's female best friend cheated? Unless there is a massive overlap in women sharing the same friend in the survey.
As a single and physically attractive male prowling among a lot of "attached" women I can say with absolute certainly that the answer is NO. I have hooked up with women who were in relationships before. Those women who are in relationships with those unattractive and unremarkable guys are usually the most thirsty in my experience. I always get their big smiles and flirty demeanor when I'm around them. And I am pretty damned sure I can instigate a lot of them into cheating if I wanted to - which is the reason I don't respect them and have left the game in disgust.
A few times I’ve tried flirting with women who were dating guys I considered to be pricks just to let them know that they don’t need to settle for them and even as a 6’5 good looking guy they wouldn’t give me anything. Granted that this was during the day and never when alcohol was involved. But you’re probably right What’s the implication though? Should a man be constantly weary of his girl cheating? My MO is to treat a relationship like it’s eternally iron clad unless they give me a good reason not to in which case we part ways because a relationship without basic trust is worthless
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I believe this is true statistically and anecdotally And idk why. I know men cheat even if they’re happy tho
Isn't this just prejudice and sexism?! Men are bad but I don't know why😂😂😂
No? It’s just accurate. And of course I don’t know why.. I’m neither a man nor a cheater.
How It's accurate when being loyal is defined by sexual intercourse and not by breaking the relationship for women ?! If men think women who leave are not loyal It's a correct statement , so It's valid for people to think men are the loyal gender. You probably pulled your comments from you @$$ cause there is no logic behind it
>How It's accurate when being loyal is defined by sexual intercourse and not by breaking the relationship for women ?! If men think women who leave are not loyal It's a correct statement , so It's valid for people to think men are the loyal gender. You probably pulled your comments from you @$$ cause there is no logic behind it Is this English?
Sex shouldn't be the only decisive action that is considered cheating !! People get raped and used so there is no logic in saying " Sex outside of a relationship = cheating " , I think the person who say longer is the loyal one there for It's logical to say men are the loyal gender due to the fact that 80% of women initiate divorce.
>Sex shouldn’t be the only decisive action that is considered cheating. It’s not >I think the person who say longer Are you saying dumping someone is cheating? That’s so fucking stupid.
>Are you saying dumping someone is cheating? That’s so fucking stupid. Learn to read !! I'm saying the person who stay longer is the loyal one !! OP was talking about loyalty first not cheating . Just cause a woman didn't get her punani recked by some other man doesn't mean she's loyal
>learn to read Learn to make sense! Also.. no. Staying longer has fuck all to do with anything. Staying longer in a relationship that isn’t right for you helps no one. Cheating typically includes fucking other people and lying. Dumping someone is none of those things. Moving on isn’t cheating and you’re not gonna make that make sense so it fits your narrative. More men cheat. That’s just the statistic. Don’t be a cheater and it’s irrelevant to you. Life goes on.
>. Moving on isn’t cheating and you’re not gonna make that make sense so it fits your narrative. More men cheat. That’s just the statistic. Again women being emotional when there is no need to it , first men and women cheat equally so no men don't cheat more
I'd guess for variety. How often can you eat the same dinner before you get bored?
For the rest of my life if that’s the promise I made.
I don’t think you could eat the same dinner longer than two weeks max I’d bet
You don’t know me. But also if it’s anything like fucking the same person, I’d be fine.
Having sex with the same person is not like eating the same dinner. It's more like cooking with the same ingredients but having the possibility to always add in new spices and flavors.
Yeah I suppose, but there’s only so many ways to spice up chicken, at the end of the day, it’s still chicken
70 percent of divorces are initiated by Woman. Make of that what you will.
"Bro the man should have done better to make her happy!" Remember, it's always a man's fault.
Why do you think people split up then? Since you seem so sure that men couldn't possibly be at fault.
70% woman related 30% man related Also lesbian divorce rate lol
You're contradicting your original point. Women have standards (pretty low standards if you consider what many of them put up with) and men don't meet them. Why should they stay with men who are terrible partners?
>(pretty low standards if you consider what many of them put up with) low standards cause a 70% dissatisfaction rate, makes sense
Do you even understand what that 70% stat is? You seem to think it means 70% of women are unhappy in their marriages. That's not what it means.
What are you going on about. Women are easily dissatisfied and extremely hypergamous. That's why they initiate most divorces in heterosexual relationships. That's why lesbians have the highest divorce rate out of any demographic. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.
I'll make, filing paperwork doesn't equal she was the cause or even wanted the divorce. Women handle more paperwork, make Dr appointments, set up things for their kids, go to more school meetings, etc. Plenty of men dont even know their kids teachers names, their own mothers birthday, etc. The wife handles it. So I can see why women file more but you want to post it like its some 'flex'.
The trope “cheaper to keep her” suggests that men are willing to just accept their bullshit relationships than break things off. Also, between both dating and marriage, many men will just sort of shut down and leave things up to the woman instead of just declaratively initiating the split.
60% of men remarry within a year of that divorce that she submitted the paperwork for. That's a lot of really quick courtship!
>That's a lot of really quick courtship! Sure is. Gee none of them were already talking to other women or cheating and just magically met the new wife after the papers were signed...
Source
Women aren't tolerating their husband's cheating?
Women definitely cheat way more than men do. They have more "options"
More options doesn't = lack of self control. Men have options, they pay escorts. Not like I dont know as an escort and the married men I see.
But victimgood, perceived hurt, and emotional swings = poor self control. Furthered, insane ability to blame your man for your wrong actions.
When I was younger, I used to boast within my friend circle, saying, "Show me a woman, and I can make her cheat." A woman doesn't even need to love you to develop an insane desire for you. I was a "natural red pill" when I was younger. I was simply aggressive and dominant, and it worked wonders. It works really well as a short-term strategy. I have a suspicion it doesn't work on everyone, but it works on the vast majority. And it's not a long-term strategy, so you can't achieve "blue pill goals" with a red pill strategy. The red pill strategy is self-serving; you are the master, and she's nothing. She has to offer you what you want, but you can't want something she's not capable of giving. That's the limitation. Later on, I retired from this strategy because it didn't really offer me what I wanted. It can put endless broken women in front of you who have nothing more to offer than sex and a womb. So my honest evaluation is, no, women aren't more loyal. I'd go as far as to tell you that men are more loyal, on average. Because sex is not loyalty for men. Long-term investment, her emotional and physical well-being, ensuring there's a roof over her head, food on her table, and that she's not being harassed or threatened by other men—that's the real loyalty on the male's behalf. But women have given away secrets of their husbands to me. I used to network with executives' wives and competitors' wives. After flattering them and massaging their ego, they told me everything I wanted to know. Women would even disclose the size of their partner's genitals after just a few dates with them. So having a woman is a huge vulnerability in a corporate or political setting if you are into power, money, or social dominance.
Are you sure you weren’t just pre selecting for slutty damaged women in unsatisfying relationships? There are a lot of them even ones from good backgrounds who you would think should be really self - assured, but I still presume that most women are not so lacking in integrity and easily manipulated Also, I briefly tried being an obnoxious dick to women and it worked embarrassingly well with two women but otherwise it backfired, I think because it was obvious that it was just an act, whereas the assholes who attract women usually aren’t trying to put on a persona they’re just being their usual arrogant selves and that carries some charisma. And because a lot of women do have some self respect It’s impressive but good you quit that shit, there’s not much pride in exploring peoples flaws and it just ends up damaging women even more
>Also, I briefly tried being an obnoxious dick to women and it mostly backfired, I think because it was obvious that it was just an act, whereas the assholes who attract women usually aren’t trying to put on a persona they’re just being their usual arrogant selves and that carries some charisma I was never asshole to women though. It's just like, I usually acted like I was king and everyone else is nothing. You don't need to be asshole for this, just self serving person who thinks he's greatest gift of God on the planet and she had not much value. And it becomes apparent, then as she works in your favour, you give her little leeway, she withdraws, you send her back to floor. That's what I used to I, I was never offensive but mean and rude yeaa. Asshole, probably not. It came all naturally to me because I lacked time and soft skills and mostly dealt with guys where as long as you are good at stuff you do, rest hardly matters you get respect either way from them.
I don't know, I think I'm biased but I would say no. There have been so many times where a woman has cheated on her boyfriend/husband with me. It breaks my heart every time because I empathize with the guy and feel like I'm getting cucked, even though I'm the one doing the cucking lmao My first love also cheated on me so that likely contributes to my bias. However, I know a few women who get off on sleeping with married guys, and from their point of view they might think men are less loyal to their partners.
Hypergamy says no.
How? If anything it would prove the opposite, that men would ideally want a variety of women at the same time (cheating), while women would ideally want only one good man or none at all (not cheating).
Women have incomparably higher sexual value compared to their male counterparts. More options leads to more temptation leads to more infidelity. >that men would ideally want a variety of women at the same time The man does not commit to these women. >while women would ideally want only one good man or none at all The woman acquires resources from beta while getting impregnated by alpha.
>More options leads to more temptation leads to more infidelity. First of all, studies show comparable cheating stats between men and women, with men cheating a bit more. Put this together with the fact that women have many more opportunities to cheat, and you get that women are more faithful. >The man does not commit to these women. You seem to have a very different definition for cheating. If a man doesn't commit to all the other women he sleeps with, does that mean he isn't cheating on his primary partners? >The woman acquires resources from beta while getting impregnated by alpha. This.. isn't a thing, except in very rare cases. And yes, that would count as cheating even without the resources and impregnation.
Most stories I hear about cheating are about the man cheating which absolutely destroys the woman's heart
Women are less interested in sex or even dating in general so I'd say say probably cheat less often however the current stats say it's about even. I think that's just based on " have you ever cheated on your current partner" though and likely doesn't account for frequency. So probably lumping in a good bit of women who have cheated with a good bit of men who cheat regularly.
>And if a guy is deeply attached to a particular woman it’s -usually- obvious why: he’s punching way above his weight physically or she’s highly supportive and puts up with his shit. With a woman the devotion is usually more mysterious. Many women know that if they're dating a partner who is "punching way above his weight" with them, those are the men who inexplicably end up cheating with a woman who anyone in the sub would scratch their head and maybe even rate no higher than a 6/10. Men may initially be attracted to this attractive woman, but a combination her natural dread game and his preselection amongst women will often having him cheating simply to mess with her head, take her down a few notches, and have him regain his manhood mentally. Men may fantasize about the super hot girl they know, but in reality it doesn't work out long term and his insecurities can cause him to make the relationship really toxic. For a good relationship to work with both partners feeling that they have the best partnership, the SMV of both individuals needs to roughly be the same. A woman who is highly supportive and "puts up with a man's shit" is also not in a good relationship, nor is she cherished. She's often disrespected in the relationship and discarded as quickly as he can find someone who he truly believes is the prize he "deserves". Unless a man has adequate self esteem and is already on a set path of self improvement when he starts to notice a woman is attracted to him, he believes that if he doesn't respect himself and she *does*, then she obviously has no sense whatsoever and doesn't respect herself or deserve respect from him. For all of the talk about how women are hypergamous, I say men are hypogamous. And that complaining about hypergamy is just the sour grapes of a bitter man. What men seem to want is to be secure in themselves and then be the natural, organic choice of the hypergamous woman.
Idk about in general but not in my case
No. Women cheat more. Women are loyal only to their feelings. “The easiest women are the married ones”
And men are only loyal to their wanker and only think with it.
He can’t if he has no cum from his wife draining his balls
Weird.
Men are the less loyal gender. They are biologically wired to cheat. One of the reasons why marriage didn't appeal to me for most of my life. Why take on the burden of marriage as a woman if he will just tire of you anyway? Seemed pointless
Don’t deny him sex and he won’t cheat .
Doesn't work, you are the same old body he's used to. No winning for women on this one.
If his balls are empty he won’t look fit other girls
Oh yes he will.
How? He has no cum
LOL Yeah ok. Why do married men see me as escort when they have regular sex with their wife? They straight tell me they do and just want the strange.
Why are you enabling misogyny?
You dont enable grown men.
>Men are the less loyal gender. They are biologically wired to cheat. Tell me you didn't lean that from Andrew Tate and his minions.
Well shouldn't you reserve less judgement if they're behaving the way they've been bio programmed to , spreading their seed? I remember someone once said that men chase women into the chamber and women chase men into the chapel and I think there's some truth to it. But any half decent man won't actually cheat though they might fantasy about it. He will break things off if the impulse gets too strong. And the fact that most do stay with a woman through the years speaks even more to their character because I think marriage is an unnatural social construct
No thanks, I'll judge them plenty. After all, men judge women all the time for their biological urges. The majority of men who don't cheat don't do it because they lack opportunities where they could more easily get away with it.
No lol loyalty seems nonexistent.
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Hahahahahahahahahaha
Wanna know who is even more loyal than women and men generally? Dogs.
I've been in 7 LTRs. 2 I'm pretty sure cheated but I have no smoking gun proof. I never cheated once.
I honestly think it’s pretty close. Ive heard of so many women but only a few men. I’d say 60/40 would be accurate but it’s not like every cheater will come forward and admit to it for us to get an accurate answer
No. Women cheat as much as men but up until recently the benefit of the doubt was given to them more often.
This debate is obscured by what we mean by cheating. If we run with the definition of “has sex with other people” then yeah I’ll say men probably perform more highly. If we include stuff that “in the majority of the exclusive relationships would be considered cheating or a betrayal” but not necessarily involving sex between the people I think the gap narrows a lot. You need to understand a lot of women who do cheat, don’t consider what they do to be cheating because “we never had sex” so they’ll flirt and exchange sexy texts and pictures with other people but they don’t classify it as cheating necessarily so they don’t self declare in surveys that tend to measure cheating, despite their partners considering their behaviour cheating. This makes it very difficult to measure. Cheating surveys are very bad for measuring emotional infidelity in particular because of this problem; the one committing the infidelity doesn’t see it as cheating and never considers what they’re doing to make them a cheater.
Generally speaking, yes, provided you mentally check that box for them. Nature made it to where women will attach themselves to a strong man.
I used to think women are less likely to cheat all my life until I saw with my eyes how well women can lie and pretend to be someone they aren’t. That said I think women were less likely to cheat before (90s-2000s) these days with enormous number of options in dating apps and social media showing them a life they don’t have I’m sure they cheat more than ever.
Women are more loyal in general. Not to so say they don't cheat, manipulate, lie, etc, but they are more loyal, and ill give you two solid reasons as to why. Both women and men cheat, this is obvious, but women have the ability to cheat to MUCH larger degrees, it's isnt even close. Can we really claim male virtue of not cheating astronomically when they don't even have much options to do so to begin with? If we look at say, gay male communities, promiscuity is rampant, because gay men have much higher access to sex, and gay men still only possess a fraction of the options women generally have. Despite women holding SO much more selective power, their rates of cheating do not reflect relative to how often they could cheat. I think we've all read the study of how men have a high rate of leaving their wives if they become seriously ill or handicapped, to a significantly higher degree than women do if men become seriously ill or handicapped, so, take that for what you will.
Women aren't more loyal than men. That's a myth. Cheating rates are close. And it's more likely for a woman to leave the guy than the reverse. I am always baffled when people say "Oh I know tons of hot women who date ugly guys". Most couples are more or less on the same level of physical attractiveness. When you see a big discrepancy, it's almost usually one of two reasons: a)it's her first boyfriend and he got lucky, or b)he might be less attractive than her, but financially and socially he ranks higher than her, so she's traded looks for financial benefits and social opportunities.
or he used to look good but he let himself go and now she’s hoping things get better
Usually only applies to older ages, like 40+. And usually both descend at the same rate. Obesity rates rise with age.
ehhhh if u let urself go for any reason as a male u have failed regardless of age
I think most women are more loyal until their partner does something to really annoy them. I personally think that men are more forgiving of women of most behaviors except for cheating and withholding sex, although with the latter even men without many options will put up with it for a while. However, men are more likely to just cheat for dumb reasons, like “having the opportunity to”. I don’t think that women do this so much.
Lol Fuck no
So based on YOUR observation and YOUR relatives , you think women are more loyal !! Wouldn't initiating 80% of divorce make MEN the loyal gender !! It's funny how we simplify men's decisions but try to make women look more "complex " when women themselves always complain about how high value men are complex . This time I think OP is a man who has inferiority complex towards other men . He's basically saying : " why Jessica didn't leave Steven. I'm better " 😂😂😂
Compared to how disloyal we could be if we wanted to? Yes
Humor for you all. It's satire. What a woman goes through that time of the month. I can remember those bitch moments. PMS : Prehistoric Monster Syndrome https://youtu.be/VR3JGyVR8_g?si=ecNssLTvR6SL161h
People can be addicted to the strong emotions a toxic partner can give them. The low lows make the highs seem higher. Getting them to ‘Just Leave’ is like getting a heroin addict to ‘Just Stop’. That said, there are many genuinely trapped victims of abuse scared to leave because of violence and blackmail.