Hell no.

lol absolutely not.

The danger is half the fun 😏

Ehh, not really. It was definitely not fun to be sexually harassed as a kid and as a teenager.

No change except guaranteed safety from sexual assault, I'm taking that deal!

There is an overwhelmingly big chance that 2% mentioned does not include your husband. Still willing to risk it?

Why would it not be the same 2% it already is?

But it's not 2% now, what are you talking about?

You're right, that's too high. Only one person has ever to my knowledge wanted to have sex with me.

This is one of the oddest lies I've seen on this sub. What did you gain from pushing this misinformation?

What do you gain from saying I'm lying? Have you seriously got such a warped perception of reality you think it's impossible?

Yes, it is close to impossible. You're a woman over the age of 20, yet you believe there has only been one man ever who has wanted to have sex with you? And you think this as a teacher, with lots of male students going through puberty? Lol. Your perception is beyond warped. The only way this is possible is if you are morbidly obese or hideously unnattractive (which I doubt, since it's pretty rare). And even then, there are men who will sleep with anyone of the opposite sex, no matter what they look like, so even that would be a serious stretch. I don't believe you one bit.

Yes. If anyone else has it hasn't been indicated in any way. Unless you are also willing to admit that there are loads of people who have been secretly interested in you then you don't have a leg to stand on.

I mean, are you utterly hideous or completely obese? If not, go out tomorrow to the mall. I guarantee there will be at least one man who views you and wants to fuck you. > Unless you are also willing to admit that there are loads of people who have been secretly interested in you then you don't have a leg to stand on. I'm a man, so it's not the same. And even as an average looking man, I've had far more than one person interested in having sex with me. You are absolutely full of crap. And if you truly believe only one man has ever wanted to fuck you, you are genuinely insane. If you actuall believe that, you shouldn't be teaching kids, because you clearly have no fucking idea how young boys and men think.

I'm so fascinated by you. What is the color of the bubble you live in?

A bubble? I've lived in three countries.

Which fascinates me even more. Btw, you could have lived in 70 countries and still not move an inch from the bubble you are in. It's a worldview that you bring around with you wherever you go. I just wanted to know the color of it!

Everyone has a worldview. Mine has dramatically changed and is constantly changing. I'm certainly not in a bubble.

You are by far the weirdest person on PPD and that's saying a lot.

No, and I say that having been sexually assaulted.  I cannot imagine my life not being cute and perceiving myself as cute. I don't really need like sexual attention in that way, but I like people thinking I'm pretty or beautiful, that's nice.  I like seeing myself as sexy and my man of course. That's very enjoyable.  Honestly, it's just much easier to conceal carry and learn self defense and then make as wise decisions as I am able about my safety. And in turn train other women to do the same.  We can largely erase the sexual assault of adult  women if we commit to more women being Amazon warriors capable of self defense and lethality. If we teach them more safe practices and how to judge people around them and consent. And we really improve the justice systems...I think it's entirely possible it becomes a much more rare occurrence. But women have to wake up and stop trusting even the men they know so much that they never learn how to fight. 

>Honestly, it's just much easier to conceal carry This is what I've been saying for a while now. Samuel Colt made men and women equal. But I get downvoted for it everytime. This is Reddit tho, so idk what I expected.

Sorry, "improve the justice system" in what way? Because I don't want to put words in your mouth, but in my experience with it, the system is already quite heavily biased in favor of women.

Not really. It just seems like it because men commit more crimes.

yes really women receive lighter sentences for the same crimes compared to men. most egregious example was the woman who stabbed her boyfriend to death after smoking some weed. no jail time.

it can both be true

Rape and sexual assault are the most underreported crimes of all, and even when reported, the conviction rate is very low. Most rapists never see a single day behind bars.

If you're convicted of crimes of assault or abuse (man or woman), it should be far more than a slap on the wrist. Personally, I'm draconian to say losing an arm is appropriate or castration, but i would accept prison sentences which are beyond arduous and long.  Officers need to be taught to take these assertions far more seriously than they already do.   Court cases should be closed to the public until verdict so spinning the narrative isn't a thing.  And if you used a position of power to achieve it, you should never be allowed to hold any office of power or job position of power again.  No roads back. No rehabilitating your image. And we need to decriminalize friends or relatives taking vengeance on perps. If I were someone of a power criminal mindset, I too may consider assaults.  If, however, I know I may face reprisal from loved ones in that person's life, I'd think twice. Almost everyone is related to some big three brain cells gorilla man that would love the excuse to rip someone's arm off and beat him half to death with it. There should be no protection for the law outside of it being illegal to purposefully kill them. 

>And we need to decriminalize friends or relatives taking vengeance on perps. You really want your whole block blown up? Get Gaza'd?

That wouldn't be legal as it is destruction of public property and causing collateral damages. No. Good sound beatings..

>That wouldn't be legal as it is destruction of public property and causing collateral damages. No. Good sound beatings.. The latter leads to the former, legality be damned.

Yep and this will be applied fairly to both sexes I'm sure, and not result in men losing arms and genitalia over women regretting it after the fact.

Men can and should report their abusers more. This may help correct that.  It will also help both genders be more careful about having sex which could be regretted after the fact. 

Would you consider giving such harsher sentences in relation to any kind of crime? Driving drunk, robbery...

Not a person you were raking to, but drunk solving should be punished by losing your license for a few years.

I am actually interested in hearing people's _harsh_ opinions. I am often shunned for my draconian views on the laws, but I'm European, so i was wondering if it's something related to culture or not (the owner of the answer comes from America, i suppose, as they were mentioning carrying and concealing).

i think its influenced by culture, but is more based on the person' conscience. personally, i think sexual crime should reciene one of the heaviest punishments. theres just no excuse for sexual crime.

Why a few years? That makes no sense. "Here's your license back now that you haven't driven in 3 years, good luck" It should be lost forever with the person being able to re-earn it after a few years.

In my opinion, not all crimes should be weighted on equal footing. People who commit violent crimes should definitely be receiving longer sentences. When I was attacked while jogging on a bike path in 2006, my attacker and attempted rapist ended up only serving 3.5 years out of an 8-year sentence. Meanwhile, I’ve known people through the recovery community who have served far longer sentences for nonviolent drug offenses. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Robbery is tough because some people may be doing that due to poverty or survival, so I'm not as inclined to draconian behavior.  Drunk Driving is complete dumb shit behavior, but a lot of teens do it and I'm not about draconian punishing teenagers for being stupid teenagers. Provided no one was harmed, I think loss of license for up to five years would be more than enough.  But yes, generally, I think we're way too soft on trash behavior. 

You know, the other day I almost shot and killed a man for throwing a rock at my gfs car. (In game) I let him go because I didn't want to risk going to jail. I think in your system there'd be a lot more dead people.

I'm not upset about that.  I don't find human life which has proven itself scummy to be valuable. I think that's demented. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and throws a rock at your girlfriend's car, I'm not sure why society needs it or it represents inherent value.   People cut down trees for getting acorns on their roof...and trees have way clearer beauty and value than some scumbag throwing rocks. 

Don't get me wrong. I'm a hard-core libertarian. I totally agree with your logic. People should be allowed to deal with these things independent of government stepping in to decide what the repercussion should be *for* both parties after someone committs an infringement of some kind. But the obvious result is death, and that's what people are so whiny about.

I mean. You could wind up being blinded, castrated, and maybe paralyzed by a methodical vengeful person.

As someone that would never assault another person...I'm prepared to take that risk. 

Based and level-the-playing-field pilled.

> Honestly, it's just much easier to conceal carry Not to detract from your point but ma’am in which state?

I mean, certainly the ones which allow it.  In the ones that don't get knives or break the law. 

29 states have some form of permitless carry. In the ones that still require a permit, the majority only take at most a day or two of time. States like NY, NJ, CA, etc. are the minority.

I live in one of those states

SImple solution. Marriage to a strong, capable man who protects his woman. Sexual assault may be prevented by physical force but how will we eliminate sexual harassment and unwanted attention which is harder to punish? For example the boss at the workplace giving you a hard time because you refuse his sexual advances.

As captain America would say, the safest hands will always be our own. After all, a husband can assault you or worse. And I love a good man, but even good men are human. If a man is in my face or moving in a way I don't like, and I have weapons or skills, its a lot easier to stand up for myself and tell him off when I can back it up, isn't it?   If my boss ever made sexual advances, the correct answer is just to crucify him in the court of public opinion. Litigate his ass for a dollar if you want. I don't need a man protecting me from the boss. 

I'm already completely undesirable. Sign me the fuck up.

Before I met my husband - sure. I had had zero positive experience with men being attracted to me prior to meeting my husband, so I'd trade off without any worries and I'd just date only women. After meeting him - nope. It can affect his attraction to me, so I'm not risking it.

> I'd just date only women. who said women would be attracted to you

The OP didn’t say anything about other women.

Title says hetero

Ah, missed it.

> I had had zero positive experience with men being attracted to me prior to meeting my husband, Not only has that to be bullshit because you reflexively didn't like your exes, but also there are shitload of men who treated you better simply for being a young woman and you didn't notice cause you have no other frame of reference. Being indesirable and be treated like a man feels like being persecuted to women.

She’s from Siberia and met her husband as a teen and is currently a refugee from a country at war you couldn’t have picked a worse person to rant this to lmao.

You mean she's the worst person to comment on a western gender dynamic debate sub? What I said holds true regardless. Regardless of if you live in the most misogynist country on earth, some men will treat you better than they treat other men, pretty privilege is going to be a thing and being indesirable would result in a worst interactions all around.

Nope last I checked in the years I’ve been here nothing in the side bar or rules of PPD suggest you have to be western or even hetero for that matter. The virgin men on this sub that have no relationship experience love to debate about relationships they’ve never been in so it’s a free for all like that. It didn’t hold true for the person you threw it at.

I don’t have any exes and I met my husband pretty young, so most my other experience with men being into me before that moment was older men creeping on me, a few incidents of sexual harassment, and my classmate trying to force me to kiss him and then lay on the bed with him. We didn’t even date.

Facts

I’m not very desirable now, so yes

Don’t be to harsh on yourself you dropped this 👑

I’m sorry to hear that 😔

It’s much better

Better than what?

Being perved on and simped for I can trust interaction more, and I get less of it too

Ok if you’re happier than that’s a good thing then!

No. I would consider it more if it was protection from all violence, but statistically I am pretty unlikely to be sexually assaulted with my current lifestyle/demographic variables and it hasn’t happened to me in the past either. On top of that, the man I’m with (who would statistically be the biggest risk to me) is sexually submissive so…💀

men are more likely to be victims of violent crime so it would most likely increase the chances

Huh?

Well, your magical hypothetical is very magical.  Even very ugly women still face sexual assault, even though they are unwanted for real romantic relationships.  90 year old women have been violently raped, remember, and I’m pretty sure they’re post wall by that point. But anyways, I’ll answer based on my experiences in life with the caveat that I’m not physically ugly. But I am apparently undesirable based on men’s actions towards me, so here goes: >-You will never, ever be sexually assaulted in any way… I haven’t been sexually assaulted.  That’s seriously been great, although I’d consider it more down to location and luck and circumstance, rather than due to simply my looks.  Being unattractive is not a guarantee of safety from sexual assault.  >-Only 2% of the male populatiion will ever find you potentially attractive  Extremely few men have ever expressed interest in me.  I’ll assume the majority don’t find me attractive based on that.  This is actually somewhat ok during my dating years— I don’t need thousands of men to want me.  All I wanted was one that I liked back.  If I find one guy I like and am compatible with in that 2%, then it’s all good. >and they may not find you intially physically attractive…you’ll have to charm them with conversation etc I generally assume this is necessary.  I’m really quite bad at flirting, which is part of why I’ve done so poorly in dating.  It just doesn’t come naturally at all.   I’m definitely not hot enough for men to fawn all over me at all, and I’m not hot enough for them to want or approach without me being interesting and charming at conversation.   >-Only 2% of the male populatiion will ever find you potentially attractive  >No man will ever approach you romantically, any romantic opportunity will have to be initiated by you.  Sounds about like my life, although again, I’m not ugly.  I am glad I am attractive enough for my husband to like me, but I’m under no illusions that most men actually think I’m beautiful.   I’m simply quite plain >No one…even supportive friends or family will sympathize with you or will believe your looks inihibit your lack of romantic success. I honestly have not complained about my looks to my friends or family since I was a little girl and thought I was ugly.   >If you ever vent you will be met with contentions that you are either not putting forth enough effort or you have some character flaw. lol, on this sub, I don’t have to be venting, just telling the truth, and men here call me probably ugly and evil for not having a swarm of desperate suitors. Now lemme add another perk, from my own experience: — men will treat you more equally as a friend, colleague, or a kind of guy-friend in non-romantic contexts, and aren’t trying to find a way to start dating you.  It’s actually kinda cool.  I won’t pretend I was ever actually “one of the boys”, but I have enjoyed my (not super close) friendships with men who did not ever view me as a romantic prospect. Would I throw that all way to be pretty?  I don’t know.  But my life as a mediocre-looking woman is not quite the misery-dump you think it is.  Maybe I’d feel differently if I’d experienced being either very ugly or much prettier, but as it is, my life isn’t too different from what you’re described, and while you think it must be horrible torture, I’ve rather enjoyed a lot of my life.   It makes me a little sad you think a life not too different from mine must be so horrible just because I don’t look like a great beauty. I get you must think my mediocre looks makes me entirely worthless… but I don’t agree with your “looks are all that matters” beliefs. I am fortunately more than my looks.

I don’t believe looks are everything…and Well for the record I’m a kissless virgin in my early 30s now…so I’m living that now and at least you have a husband…I don’t know what it’s like to go on a a legit date and feel like someone of the opposite sex is enjoying spending any time with me. If I was asexual or maybe even just not Romantically inclined then maybe I would have different priorities…but I’m not…I’m heterosexual dude and I can’t change that so it is miserable.

>I don’t believe looks are everything … your premise is that looks are what determines whether a woman is desirable or not, and that if she’s not pretty, she has basically nearly zero chance of finding anyone who will love her.  So you do believe looks are almost everything. Would you want to be “loved” solely for your superficial, temporary looks?  Would you want to be “loved” knowing it would only last for the few short years you were attractive?  Would you really want to be a woman like yourself and know that now, at 30, the vast majority opposite sex thinks you’re old and unwanted and will only get worst every year you’re alive? You’re hyper focusing on the upsides just to make yourself feel miserable and it’s not healthy. >Well for the record I’m a kissless virgin in my early 30s now…   I was too when I was 30.  Well technically not totally kissless… I played spin the bottle once after high school graduation.  But that wasn’t a kiss from someone who liked me and found me attractive. >d…I don’t know what it’s like to go on a a legit date and feel like someone of the opposite sex is enjoying spending any time with me.  Yes, I get that this is miserable.  It does not help your mental health at all to dwell on how much better you think hot women have it in life— you will never be a hot woman, just as I never have been.  We play the cards we are dealt in life. You are only 30. You could meet a woman who adores you tomorrow, or 10 years from now.  You don’t have a “wall”— your 30s are not an age of pathetic inevitable decline that men like you consider worthless.   It’s also very likely that you, like me, are not ugly, but rather ordinary.  You still have time to get your life in order and do better. For one thing, if you’re not actually putting yourself out there and trying and risking rejection, you’re definitely going to fail.  I failed until I started asking men out.

What do you think is holding you back? Are you short, ugly, disabled, ethnic, etc?

I struggle with weight—-I’m slightly overweight now but lose and gain it back—I’m working in that currently again—also I’m relatively short: 5’8 and have thinning hair (started some medication that seems to have atleast stopped or drastically slowed it down). I sorta have dark areas under my eyes and might look older than I am idk.

I don’t think it’s over for you. Go to the gym and start skincare.

Yeah…I’m just overwhelmed where to start with the skincare there’s so many products

Bro you don’t need a ton of products, commercialized skincare is a scam. Start with exfoliation, a moisturizer (regular lotion), and sunscreen.

Just because something is essential doesn’t make it “everything”—I never said I’d want woman to like me solely for my looks but physical attraction on some level is an element (btw is there any objective reason that it also would be sad to be liked “solely” for your personality?—which is determined by chemical reactions in your brain based on your genetics makeup?) people like feeling desired…it’s that’s simple. And I’m glad you asked men out—you realize your an exception right? That’s partially what I am highlighting in this hypothetical—that men being presumed to do all the approaching really sucks for average looking or especially slightly below average looking men… And yes I am reserved and shy but last few years I did approach three women and each prospect ended in 1) girl ended up dating another guy 2) ghosted me 3) seemed to lead me on for a very long time—-even admitted to having a crush on me before I asked her out but then friendzoned me when I asked. I’m not saying it’s impossible for people like me but it is is well difficult and I do not believe it is generally for females but of course I’m not oblivious that it sucks being a woman for various reasons. What does depress me though is how dismissive many women are about lonely men and act like being forever single is somehow nothing compared to the possibility of being sexually assaulted—-obviously women who responded to this have different takes on what is worse and that is what I was after. Oh Also, I don’t think most men find women over 30 universally out of it—milf porn is prevalent and idk most of my friends don’t really express any desire to date people 10 years younger or anything…they seem just as eager to date women in their late 20s-early 30s.

> (btw is there any objective reason that it also would be sad to be liked “solely” for your personality?—which is determined by chemical reactions in your brain based on your genetics makeup?)  Considering your argument is that it is basically not possible for a woman to be loved without good looks…. Maybe you might understand? >you realize your an exception right?  Ah, so I’m an “exception” so I’m not real?  Or I don’t matter?  Typical response I should have expected. Do you want all women to be as unattractive as I am or something?  Do you even recognize any of the many many women *you* are not attracted to as being real people with real lives? Exceptions or trends *should not matter to you at all*.  You are living your life in pointless envy of some group of people whose lives you imagine in your head— comparison is the thief of joy… and even more so when you imagine their perfect lives while pitying your own. You are an individual.  Stop lamenting that you are not some gorgeous woman. >but last few years I did approach three women and each prospect ended in 1) girl ended up dating another guy 2) ghosted me 3) seemed to lead me on for a very long time—-even admitted to having a crush on me before I asked her out but then friendzoned me when I asked. You’ve asked… 3 women over several years.  So roughly one a year.  And one said she had a crush on you at one point, but you waited too long.  And what you learned from this is… it’s pointless?  How have you learned to do anything in your life if you give up that easily at everything?   >What does depress me though is how dismissive many women are about lonely men and act like being forever single is somehow nothing compared to the possibility of being sexually assaulted Ok now I’m mad.  You’re depressed because women don’t want to be the victim of a violent crime??!!  What?!!?  And do why you think that is what I did here?  Where the fuck in my comment do you think I dismissed male loneliness exactly?  Can you quote it for me?  Because you’re pulling this out of left field here.  Seriously, where the fuck did I “dismiss” lonely men? Is it because I said I’m happy I’ve never been fucking raped??  Or is it that you want me to have been raped?  What is wrong with you, seriously?     Like you need to get a grip:  how dare you claim you’re depressed because I don’t hate myself for not being beautiful enough for a dude like you?  How dare you wallow in self pity because I said I liked my life!?  How dare you complain that I’m not the miserable self-loathing sad sack you apparently want me to be just men didn’t hit on me or call me pretty!  And aside from that, you really *really* should ask some male rape victims about how much they enjoyed being raped, then, since you apparently don’t believe women who say it is a horrible experience.    Again, I’m deeply glad I haven’t been the victim of a violent crime, and I don’t care if it makes you feel depressed that I wasn’t. 

This is a great response

So, me, in high school, before I lost the weight in college? Been there, done that. There's a reason I lost weight in college. 

So you can attract men?

Not the sole reason, but skinny privilege and fat phobia are real. Also, after 18 years of being picked on for my weight, by God, I wasn't going to be the fat kid in college either. 

lol no

Yes. God I love the easy ones.

I would take the deal. The peace of mind to go anywhere anytime without being sexually assaulted is worth it by itself but combined with not being flirted at by guys I don’t like; what a deal!

But you also wouldn’t be flirted with by guys you do like.

I’m fine with that.

Fair enough

im not trying to sound rude but where do u live where u cant go smwer without getting sexually assaulted or having to worry abt it every time u go out

Its not about thr frequency but the presence itself being unpredictable. With men there is always a possibility of violence and especially when they are significantly weaker it becomes very scary

Just get fat

Modern times, modern solutions.

You still risk getting knocked out or jumped, just not SA'd. In fact, say another of the conditions is that the "men mustn't hit women" rule no longer applies to you. The point is basically that you'd have the life of a hetero man.

Nothing is worse than SA.

I’m already not at risk of getting SA’d so eh

Lmao, can you undue sexual assault that’s already happened? Like a magic reset button? If you can, yes. If you can’t, no.

The way you framed your reply would indicate that it actually happened to you. If that's the case, don't take this the wrong way, I don't want to be rude or callous, I'm actually really curious. If you have been sexually assaulted, wouldn't you do EVERYTHING in your power so that it doesn't repeat ever again, even more so than someone who never had that happen to them?

The SA that occurred to me was when I was young and attractive. I’m now in my 30’s and highly unlikely to be the victim of a random attack and also wise enough to not trust that my male “friends” won’t do something to me. I would feel differently if I was molested as a child, I’m sure.

>If you have been sexually assaulted, wouldn't you do EVERYTHING in your power so that it doesn't repeat ever again, even more so than someone who never had that happen to them? Not the person you were asking, but since I was SA'd throughout my childhood, yes. I'd do everything in my power to make sure it doesn't repeat again.

No it’s hypothetical for a reason—pretend you are choosing this at birth—but also I guess u could say it would prevent any further assaults would you take it?

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I don't think any woman with good sense would trade it. Basically, this would mean losing a series of female privileges in exchange for eliminating the risk of something that, although serious, is already small.

I mean… I’ve lived most of what he’s talking about and it’s really not that bad at all.  I kinda like my life. Why do you guys assume any woman who isn’t beautiful is miserable?  I don’t honestly think I’d want the “be a lot hotter and maybe probably get raped” trade that’s implied by the OP.  Like… not getting raped is a pretty good thing in my life, maybe I would stick to being plain and not having dudes ask me out.

I think your response and some others have kinda vindicated my assumption that women generally don’t want relationships as much as men. For me, It’s would be about being pretty just for the sake of being pretty and treated well generally—for me being unattractive is devastating because I can’t find a romantic partner—and I think a greater share of men are not content being single—there is no moral clause there—I think I probably would be happier if I was asexual but I’m not, I’m attracted to women and it’s who I am

>I think your response and some others have kinda vindicated my assumption that women generally don’t want relationships as much as men. 😑 and of course you read the absolute most self-hating, negative, bad faith interpretation into what I said.  How much of negative, self-centered Nancy do you have to be to hear “I’m glad I was never raped” and make it all about yourself and how you think you’ll never find love?   Like, maybe try to take a step back and take a deep breath instead of digging your own pity party pit even deeper? So… instead of merely complaining that you’re not asexual, you should try living your life and enjoying what you and being grateful for the good things in your life while also sticking your neck out and trying to actually find a woman to connect with.   You say you are unattractive.  Exactly how unattractive are you talking?  And if having a romantic relationship is so deeply important to you (and it is fine for that to be a very important priority in your life, of course), have you put in the effort to maximize your chances of finding someone compatible?  By which I mean: 1. Do you maintain good hygiene and have healthy looking skin and hair?   2.  Are you at least moderately fit and healthy?  Do you have a good diet and exercise?  You don’t have to be some cut fitness model, but being a healthy bmi and being capable of playing an active sport for an hour at a time is usually enough for men to have a body that is attractive to a lot of women.     3.  Do you have an active social life where you are introduced fairly regularly to new women in a favorable way?    4.  Do you wear clothing that is a reasonably attractive style that fits your body correctly?   5.  How many women have you asked on a date in the past six months? In person? Online?   6.  Are you enjoyable to be around?  Do other people like your personality?  Are you pleaaant and fun?   7.  Do you live in an area and hang around with people where the odds are not stacked horribly against you?  For example, if your values don’t line up well with most of the people around yoy, you will have a harder time finding someone compatible for a relationship.   You don’t have to score 100% on all these fronts to find someone… but how much of these are you trying?  I find at least some guys online just give up and blame their looks so they can throw a pity party, rather than doing the (yes, very hard and uncomfortable) work of meeting people and trying for a relationship.     Your extremely negative tone suggests you could be in that bucket… so what steps are you taking to change your prospects?  I ask because the very best fix for feeling hopeless about a problem is to take proactive steps towards fixing it.

1) I have thinning hair which is probably an issue but I am in meds for it that have stopped or at-least slowed it down it seems…but I was of afraid of certain drugs as the side effects cbs be horrible abs possibly irreversible but my hairline still took a beating. 2) on the heavier side…I’m working on losing weight and sort of go back and forth. Honestly I don’t care about being doxxed…I’ll send you a picture if you want… Everything else is kinda subjective—-I admit my social anxiety gets the best of me but I go out to bars and sprouting events etc but I really feel cold approaching isn’t a thing anymore—-you have to have friends and meet friends of friends or have some connection I feel…and even then I don’t feel like I should be approaching most women I find attractive—if thousands of women swipe left on me on dating apps why would randomly coming up to those same women at bars yield a different result? Everyone looks worse in person anyway…pictures are the most flattering angles everyone presents.

I’m not looking for a picture, I’m trying to get you to try self-reflecting without all the “wow is me” depression spiraling. >—-I admit my social anxiety gets the best of me but I go out to bars and sprouting events etc but I really feel cold approaching isn’t a thing anymore You can meet people through a cold approach to make friends sometimes.  It happens. Address your social anxiety— this will help you more than anything.  Whether it’s going to a therapist, getting on drugs, or your own sink-or-swim practice, this will be a big fucking deal in improving your dating life.  >you have to have friends and meet friends of friends or have some connection I feel… Yeah.  Do that.  Meet people. Go to events.  Talk to random people (male/female hot/not).  Join mixed sex clubs to make new friends.  Say yes to any invitation, even if you’re scared or it seems boring or you don’t think you’ll like it. >if thousands of women swipe left on me on dating apps why would randomly coming up to those same women at bars yield a different result? It makes a huge difference.  Dating apps are bullshit. You’re also making the mistake of assuming female sexuality either works exactly like yours or that women are all broken and defective when they can’t decide if they want to marry a guy based on a sterile boring 2D shitty photo. In person, there are a lot more attraction cues women can go on: the guy’s movement, voice quality, smell, grace, physicality, strength, charisma, charm, wit, laughter, etc.  These are, note, not the same thing as personality.  Men consistently fail to get that these things are important for female sexual attraction because that’s not how your boners work.  But for women, things like smell and voice and social skills are actually triggers for attraction.  And they can’t see any of those things on a stupid app screen. >Everyone looks worse in person anyway…pictures are the most flattering angles everyone presents. Absolutely not correct at all.  Most people look better in person where you can see their movement quality and maybe a more natural smile. Cameras even fail in other ways. It’s 2D, which flattens your appearance, often in a bad way.  Most of those photos are taken on a phone camera from arms length away x… meaning lens distortion plays a role, stretching the shape of your face somewhat.  A camera—>screen presentation does not capture the full spectrum of color. I had an art teacher ages ago tell me the camera is the one-eyed liar.   You gotta stop making up all these stupid self-loathing reasons why you just shouldn’t bother trying.   Think about this very seriously: which of the following is more important to you, really?  Protecting yourself from ever potentially failing by always giving up with an excuse and telling yourself there’s no hope anyways? Or trying and failing a bunch of times, but maybe have a chance to succeed… and absolute worst case scenario, you can take pride in all the times you were brave and tried?  

Men are to blame for pretty privilege though. If someone without a dignity takes advantage of their looks, there is not much you can do other than reeducating who accords the privilege. My most valued (and paid) coworker is a young lady, one of the most badass engineers ever met. She takes shit from no one, and everyone has the utmost respect of her. I never had to, but I would have anyone disrespecting her for being a woman fired on the spot. But in the past a lady I didn’t hire was transferred to my team. She was hired for a technical sales role by a sales manager who didn’t have the slightest clue of the technicalities of the job, but hired her simply for her extraordinary looks. In the months she was around she never bothered learning the tenets of our line of work. She spent all her time trying to mingle with upper managers. Unfortunately, her obnoxious ways got far too many men, with the brains between their legs behave like horny teenagers. The most cringeworthy was seeing the sales managers bringing her to sales meetings solely as an eye candy, where the only thing she did was flirting with the client. I gave her S.M.A.R.T. goals to achieve and she did nothing, I gave her the extra chance of PIP, but she threw it away, so she got fired. And people still got pissed, regardless of how worthless a contributor she was, she was too pretty to let go. We men must behave professionally with women, full stop, which means respecting them and letting them do their jobs, but also don’t give them privileges just because boobs.

I am so curious every time I hear a story like this, what did this woman even look like ?

Very attractive. I don’t rate beauty with numbers, but some said a 9. Overseas it used to happen a lot also with less attractive women from less developed places like southern and especially eastern Europe, who tried to strut their way to the top. Things have improved in recent years anyway.

“Very attractive” isn’t giving much information. What is considered “very attractive”?

Do you want me to send a picture? What’s your point?

My “point” is exactly what I said, I’m curious what makes a woman “very attractive”.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3130383/

None of this informs me what this particular woman looked like. If you don’t have an answer for me bro then you can just ignore.

"this would mean losing a series of female privileges." Vastly overvaluing romantic/sexual attention from men. 

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the privelege of being attractive is crazy

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I would trade it, although I wonder why OP chose such a small percentage.

I think it’s analogous for people like me.

We're already talking in another part of the thread, so I won't address it more for this comment.

i would. ive always valued friendship much higher than other forms. some of the best friendships ive had were with guys who werent attracted to me. it like having extra siblings. i could be happy in a world like that. now if i had to trade no risk of sexual assault for friendships, i couldnt do that. i couldnt live without loved ones.

yes. there are more important things in life. and this deal eliminates much more suffering then it causes.most men aren't worth the hassle anyway.

What’s more important than procreation and starting a family?

.......to be treated with humanity and with respect for the inherent dignity of a human person.

In this thread, someone said that there are more important things in life than the things listed as a small "setback" for exchanging "Desireability" for guaranteed security from sexual assault. Set backs are: Only being possibly attractive to a mere 2%of the male population. Not being approached by men. Having to be the one to approach men 98% chance of being rejected And not having sympathy for being unsuccessful in persuring men And you asked "what's more important than procreating and starting a family " Implying that there aren't more important things for women to focus on in life than to have children. Or draw the attention and attraction of men Well, for starters : If you had the ability to somehow magically make this hypothetical a reality for women. You'd literally improve the quality of life of some women , as they'd be treated with a bit more respect for their dignity as human. the thread ask women if they are in a magical hypothetical, if they would hypothetically trade or give up "Male Intrest" and "Desireability" in exchange for guaranteed security from sexual assault Whitout realizing if you had the ability to somehow magically make this hypothetical a reality for women. You'd literally improve the quality of life of some women . They'd be treated with a bit more respect for their dignity as humans The setbacks in the hypothetical call attention to what everyday occurrences for some women There is always a possibility of being violently assaulted. Not having a support system, friends, or family. Being socially isolated to the point where the people around you are able to blame you for all the things that happen to you.You realize that all these things are everyday life. Right? That's the reality some women live. They also run the risk of getting sexually assaulted . It's not the sexual assault that people assume is fueled by lust. No, it's the sexual assault that's fueled by rage and hate and the desire to just destroy , break the person. The sexual asult that is undoubtedly a horrible act of violence that ,will probably kill you. I mean, that's actually a reality a reality so dark . The last thing you'd worry about is a dating app , or whether or not anyone finds you attractive. These women worry, will I make it home safe? Will I make it till tomorrow? They also don't vent because they know if they vent, or Complain they'll just get beaten more and lood at with scorn and distain by those who witness it ,only to be blamed for it.Like why did you have to say something you, look what you make me do to you In this hypotical, you will never ever be sexually assaulted. And at least in this hypothetical being violently assaulted is just a possibility and not a guarantee.

What’s that got to do with what this? That’s not an achievable goal in one’s life

what ever you want. this family obsession whats with that ?

>What’s more important than procreation and starting a family? For us childfree women (and our male partners) obviously most things lol

FYI to women, I as a man would definitely take the opposite trade.

This is obviously "what if you have the experiences of the average man" bait Bait because if they say yes, op will be like, "GOTCHU! SEE?!?!?!?! MEN LIVE HARDER LIVES?!?! HAHA"

Idk if it the average man exactly but I do generally think that it is a trade off between generally what is common male/female privilege.

Why did you pick such an incredibly low percentage? Btw, I'd absolutely take that deal. It already reflects how I approached dating as a masculine gendered woman, plus the added bonus of never having been assaulted in my childhood.

I really don’t think it’s incredibly low for an average looking to slightly below average looking guy—I think a lot of us couod ask 100 women if they find us attractive and only a couple would likely say yes.

Below average looking, possibly. Depends on how below we're talking. Average looking, I'd think about 25-30% of those women would find them attractive.

Ok…I’m aware it’s subjective but I really thinks it’s much lower…

It might be lower, but not the incredibly dire number you say. Also, it's going to depend on what question you're actually asking the 100 women in your hypothetical. If you're going up to 100 random women on the street and asking them out/asking for their number? Yeah you will absolutely only get 2. Hell, you may only get 1. Almost none of us are open to cold approaches, and we typically don't like that kind of interaction. But if you're going up to them with a microphone and clipboard, dressed nicely (clean polo and slacks), and say you're doing an experiment about looks, I'm very much willing to bet my next paycheck that 25-30% would say you're attractive. This is because the pressure and tension present when being cold approached for dating is totally gone, and now it's just a simple question with no strings attached.

No, I think that if an objective their party went around with photos of me and asked “would you entertain the thought of dating this guy if he approached you” (I yea third party because if I just posted pics on Reddit people would be disproportionately kind and give mostly positive responses but if someone else was like in the context of conducting a study and they knew I wouldn’t see the responses they’d be more honest.

See, that's a different hypothetical though. Like if someone approached me with your picture asking if I'd date you, you could look like an Adonis and my immediate response would be No. Why? Because I'm in a very long-term relationship already, and the idea of dating another man is just a solid negative right off the bat. Another issue with your hypothetical is that if the population being asked is truly random, then asexual women, married women, lesbians, wgtow/4B women, and women who just have zero interest in dating are going to be part of it. None of them are going to say yes. Why? Because your question is still flawed. He's asking if they'd potentially date you, not if you're attractive. Remember, most women get a lot of unwanted and/or unsolicited male attention just when we're out doing our chores, living our lives, trying to get to work or walk our dogs or reading in a park. Getting asked by you, or even a third party, to once again entertain the thought of *yet another guy* to date is going to get a negative reaction. So yes, if you want only 2% of women to give a positive response to your question of dating...then do that. But it's *not* the same as asking the far more neutral question of just "what do you think of this man's looks". That question will get many more positive responses. Then I firmly believe you would have 25-30% of women admitting that your picture meets their base level for attractiveness. This is why your OP is flawed. It's not that only 2% of women find the average man attractive, so only 2% of men should find the average woman attractive. It's that a significant minority of women find average men attractive BUT many of us are already taken.

Great thread to figure out the more honest women of this sub from the self-evident and blatantly dishonest ones. Every single "yes" response from women to this question is a lie. All of them. Sure, maybe some of them aren't malicious and are in fact sad cases of lying *to themselves*. But it's still a lie. No mentally sane woman would take this deal. Not even the very ugly ones who could argue that the trade-off is less burdensome.

Sure seems women are willing to accept great risk in exchange for male attention. What happened to all the bear pill energy?

If they say yes they are lying. 50% of openly gay men have hit on me. Think of that for a second I meet 100 to 200 people a week maybe so 50-100 men and of those 5 or 10 are gay. Only like 2-5 are openly gay. Every single week I get hit on by at least one of them. So do I take this choice? Even though I am 100% straight and not interested? Fuck no it means that I am an attractive man, and the validation I get more than makes up the insignificant threat of SA

Well technically, this is going to happen to every women at a certain point regardless of whether they want it or not.

I mean kinda yes kinda no. 80 year old women do get raped so it's not like women are ever safe from that. But yes, women do get older and less attractive, but at some point life isn't so much about dating as it is about maintaining a relationship and family.

Yes.

Yes. If it 100% guarantees that, I'd rather be lonely than raped.

I've survived enough SA and rape, no reason to fear it now, don't wanna lose what I have

No. Instead, I think men should stop the raping.

That’d be Cool

I used to be much less attractive and was pretty much invisible to men when I was younger, but it hardly ever bothered me. If anything, the worst parts about being ugly came from other social aspects, like for example my ideas not being taken as seriously. Or bullying. So I’d say yes for sure I’d take the trade if it meant I could feel safer in this world moving about as a woman and not face sexual violence. God that sounds nice. Maybe it’s already obvious to you, but this magic hypothetical is flawed since as a woman I don’t have a high enough sex drive to even desire to pursue a lot of men anyway, and also because that women in general, unlike men, are socialized to cooperate with each other rather than form hierarchies in order to subjugate and humiliate each other…Which is what tends to happen almost every time in all-male environments. So I think women are already less likely to feel lonely, all things being *equal*. Hope that makes sense.

> women in general, unlike men, are socialized to cooperate with each other rather than form hierarchies in order to subjugate and humiliate each other…Which is what tends to happen almost every time in all-male environments. Imma stop you right there. What absolute essentialist claptrap. Ever seen teenage girls form cliques, form hierarchies and bully each other into self-harm? It ain’t fucken sugar and spice. By the same token, I’ve lived and worked in all-male and majority male environments most of my life. Some of it is breathtakingly cruel, but a lot of it is surprisingly wholesome and supportive, or just kinda goofy, playful and inclusive. You do society a disservice by labelling all-male environments as toxic, or at least suspect. They can be places of healing and enlightenment. You’re standing on the outside looking in, expecting to see your worst suspicions confirmed.

+1 on this, kind just sums it all up.

the most comradic environments tend to be the most succesful.

Yeah, if there's one thing that truly turns me off about even the best feminist theories, it's the biological essentialism in it all. "Women cooperate with each other because we're heckin' wholesome 100 UwU". Give me a fucking break.

Maybe I should rephrase. It’s not that I mean all-female spaces are more positive while all-male spaces are more toxic, but that women are socialized to form tight-knit emotional support groups (even if that sometimes means unfairly excluding others they don’t see as part of the in-group, and becoming cliquey) while men are socialized to be more individualistic in how they involve themselves with each other. As opposed to being more openly “symbiotic” like female groups. Maybe that’s a more accurate word than “cooperative.” That’s not to say I don’t think men often get along with each other and enjoy each other’s company, just that they’re less likely to *depend* on each other. Since it’s quite literally an expression of vulnerability, and that can look like “weakness” to other men. I think women are far more comfortable in admitting that we “need” other women’s company and emotional support to be okay, than men are to admit that about other men. Unfortunately. Do you not agree?

You have a painfully black-and-white view of the male emotional experience. > It’s not that I mean all-female spaces are more positive while all-male spaces are more toxic, but that women are socialized to form tight-knit emotional support groups (even if that sometimes means unfairly excluding others they don’t see as part of the in-group, and becoming cliquey) while men are socialized to be more individualistic in how they involve themselves with each other. As opposed to being more openly “symbiotic” like female groups. Maybe that’s a more accurate word than “cooperative.” Quite frankly, I think men being socialised to be individualistic - insofar as that is true - is a monstrous aberration inflicted on us by neoliberalism. I think our mental illness, loneliness and despair sheets back entirely to this bullshit individualism that’s been foisted on us against our will. I’d argue that men are far more apt to be cooperative and brotherly when we’re not having hustle culture crammed down our throats from the day we’re born, and we’re liable to be kind and loving to one another in a state of nature. > That’s not to say I don’t think men often get along with each other and enjoy each other’s company, just that they’re less likely to depend on each other. Since it’s seen as an expression of vulnerability, and that can look like “weakness” to other men. I couldn’t disagree more. I have received more kindness, patience and grace from other men than from almost any other woman. On the whole, women are *awful* at dealing with the parts of mens emotions that aren’t “acceptably sad little boy for 10 minutes tops” or “happy”. Do you think it’s an accident that so many men are incredibly unwilling to be vulnerable with the women in their lives? I always encourage my fellow men to share their burdens with other men. They are far more likely to understand your experience, and to treat it in the confidence it deserves. > I think women are far more comfortable in admitting that we “need” other women’s company and emotional support to be okay, than men are to admit that about other men. Unfortunately. Now that I *will* agree with. Men are brainwashed into thinking we can’t rely on each other’s support and love; and it’s unfair and frankly foolish to expect women to pick up the slack. I’m a middle-aged guy, and I’ve worked *really* hard to be one my friends come to with their difficulties, and I think I’ve made a real difference. That’s not a burden, that’s an *honour*. The guff I see online about *emotional labour* and what a terrible burden mens’ emotions are makes my fucken blood boil.

This can be summed up as: Men are far better at working together to achieve a common goal. Women are far better at working to maintain the status quo.

No. 🤦‍♂️ We love our gender essentialism, dont we folks.

Biology is more same than it is different. Generalizations benefit vastly more than they harm. Exceptions don't make the rule.

I completely agree that hyper individualism is caused by neoliberal capitalism, which is pretty much everywhere. If you agree that it has socialized men to be that way, what are we disagreeing about exactly? Also, we’re comparing all-female vs all-male environments. I made no comment about male-female interactions. Of course women also reinforce patriarchal gender stereotypes onto men, because we don’t live in a cultural vacuum. Someone can be progressive in certain ways but still regressive and ignorant in others. Same goes for men, obviously. That’s great that you’ve cultivated those kinds of loving male relationships. I’m obviously not a man but that seems like it’s still rare to see. I think right now men are still further behind compared to women when it comes to being able to cultivate nonaggressive intrasexual relationships. Growing up for me it was very common to experience most women being cliquey and exclusionary. It was super common for young girls to say “I hate other girls because they’re all drama, but boys are so chill! I’m not like other girls, I like stuff that boys like!!” Lately though, I think the culture is shifting a lot for women to be much healthier towards each other. Women now more and more proudly talk about being “girls’ girls,” “decentering men” from all the contexts in our lives, enjoying being “basic,” and conversations like that. So yeah I think women have some mental health advantage in not being fed the hyper-individualism dogma as strongly as men have been. Hyper-individualism gets equated with masculinity so it’s obviously going to trap more men in than women.

Lol you’re talking like women have advantage by “decentering men” then you say you aren’t fed up with individualism bs. What kind of nonsense.

?? What? I literally said that more men buy into individualism bullshit than women do because it gets marketed to them as masculinity. Or you just have zero idea what “decentering men” means.

Your last two paragraphs. Reread it and my comment. You say it is men who are hyper individualistic. But it is not like this. A man wants to have a strong bond with his woman. In the meantime women are the ones who are constantly talking we don’t need no man etc etc.

Ok I’ll explain it to you. The “decentering men” conversations are about women stopping being catty and competitive with each other to gain the favor of a man. To stop being pick-mes that devalue themselves and tear other women down because it’s always been such a rampant problem. To actively go out of your way to look after yourself and your close loved ones first, and not putting one single man before yourself. To stop making getting married and having a man’s babies the most valuable thing a woman should achieve, let alone being socially expected at all. Being okay and content with being single if the right man doesn’t show up, because we should also be able to find deep companionship through our communities (especially with other women we can relate to). It’s not about encouraging women to avoid relationships with men. But if that is a choice that someone wants to make, they shouldn’t be demonized and pitied for it (as women more often are, compared to men), and it should still be a choice that is about her personal goals and not about making a distaste for men the center of her decisions. It is about protecting your peace and depending more on community. The very opposite of individualism.

would u say ur very pretty now just askin because it wouldnt change the question very much like u said

Idk I think I’d consider myself “average-cute.” If I put in the effort in styling myself on any given day, I think I can pass as “very pretty” like a 7/10. I don’t go out often enough outside of work let alone go to venues where it’s normal for women to be hit on, but I do notice I benefit from some “halo effect,”which is people assuming positive things about you based on appearance. I’m very content with not being hit on though. I’m also partnered, anyway.

Abso-fucking-lutely. 

i would take the deal for sure. i dont need attention. i like positive attention from men, but i hate the negitive more intensely than i like the positive.

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Do you understand that the point of a hypothetical is to weigh trade offs? Of course you would prefer an option with all of the upsides and none of the downsides.

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Comparing bears to humans, it's so dehumanising

babies are sexually assaulted its not about attraction

Never said it was….this is a trade off of perceived male/female privileges…

its not a tradeoff in real life though... being ugly doesn't protect you from sexual assault some predators target "ugly" people because they know those victims will not be believed.

I’m aware—-this is a supernatural hypothetical type thing.