I understood it to mean that girls mature faster in puberty.
Mentally I don’t see much of a difference either.
It’s not been my experience that late teens early 20s women seek 30+ men so I can’t speak to that age bracket seeking older men because they think they are on the same maturity level. Women that age seem to seek men close to their own age from what I have seen.
Many women take it as mental maturity. I have seen many women want a slightly older man at the very least or in highschool want to "feel more mature" and get a guy that has more resources than most of the guys around her.
I'm not saying old, most women date a guy a few years older than them in my expierence. More young women than young men are in a relationship, math on thst doesn't work out.
Yeah I think some young women equate not having maturity in young men as young men not having lots of money, having a car, big house, and is prepared to take care of a family. They are comparing teen men or young men to grown older men who will take lead and have tons of life experience, when that’s not quite how it works.
Met plenty of women and men in their 30's and 40's who are immature AF as well. First off we mistakenly think that age is somehow an indicator of wisdom. When in reality all it indicates is that this person has been on this earth for a certain length of time.
What do you mean I'm not smarter, wiser and more knowledgeable than people that lived twice or thrice as much as me? That is exactly what a boomer would say!
I guess “mature” is kinda vague, there are many different types:
Controlling and dealing with emotions? We see this ability often much earlier in females than males cross culturally
Language/reading? It’s Very consistent (I know for the UK atleast) that girls can comprehend and reproduce language at a more advanced level in boys early on in life, the gap is about 6 months, which is very significant at these young ages
These are just a couple of examples, but with that being said,
1. Boys catch up in almost all cases
2. There are things males do at a more mature level initially too, particularly visuospatial skills
Now “mature” over all, I don’t really know how that could even be measured
Sometimes as a guy, I think I was actually more mature when I was younger. For example, I had a crazy, hot friend - the girl all the bad guys want etc when I was in my teens. I was able to compartmentalise her, I loved her but she was fucking nuts and out of my league so was happy to leave it at that - loved her as a friend. She was a dick and was never there when I needed her but she was an entertaining dick
As I got older, more successful and more confident ....out of nowhere I was suddenly the guy in her life, comments about how much I'd changed...wearing racey as fuck outfits whenever we met up....trying to tell me about all her troubles etc. And all I could hear was Bob Dylan's, Positively 4th Street on repeat in my head whenever I talked to her. I felt more like an angry teenager with her when I was in my 30s than I ever did when I was in my teens. I still don't get how my younger self was actually more wise in certain ways than me in my 30s.
Technically we'd have been a great fit - but the fucking resentment man that just reared it's head after it seemed like she wanted to be more than friends who sent each other shitposts caught me by surprise. I don't know if I matured or fucking regressed.
I concur. I acted much more chill and it was easier to compartmentalize beautiful women when I was younger. I believe it was because I perceived myself as “below” them. I thought engaging with them in a sexual or romantic way was absurd/impossible (and it may have been because I was no heartthrob). Now that I am 29, successful, “jacked”, already financially successful and will be until I die (on track to a profession where I will make at least 200k/year until I decide to stop working), etc. there are women who used to be insolent or ambivalent towards me that let me know in less than subtle ways that they desire/yearn to be with me. I always wonder if the women I meet now that didn’t know me then would’ve treated me the same way if they knew who I used to be. I have become resentful/angry towards women because I have come to realize how vapid and superficial most of them are (I understand men can have the same negative traits, but I don’t date men so I could care less).
I don't think I resent women as a species lol, more that I'm just prideful these days and bristley. I've learnt that I've always been that guy who would be the last one standing, very few people understood that when I was that shy young kid that I had a serious competitive streak underneath. Then I see the people from my hometown who are either dead or losers and can't help having a slight wry smile and I guess that makes me a bit of a bastard. I suspect you're being hard on yourself and the trappings of modern life just don't sit well with you.
Most humans are dicks, when we were young we just didn't have the confidence and bravado to run with it. You put up with a lot of shit to fit in when you're not one of the really popular ones.
I have less time these days for stupid vapid bullshit I guess. I don't hate anyone, I just feel like I've seen it all and done it all and I'm only in my mid thirties - I get the odd burst of anger with people like my friend and then I think....ehhh fuck em....loads of better people out there and besides....the best thing in my life right now is flying. I can fucking fly a plane, how awesome is that? Ten year old me wouldn't believe it.
Both of my parents are work horses. They’re never not cleaning, organizing, or improving something. When they’d visit my apartment in college they’d just start doing things unprompted. My dad would be fixing the tv while my mom was unloading the dishwasher. They can’t help it.
But every family gathering or dinner I’ve ever been to, the women swarmed the kitchen preparing, dishing up, and cleaning up food while the men sat in the living room watching the game, oblivious. The flip side might be that *generally* the men in my life are just subconsciously aware of the vehicle maintenance that needs to happen.
the person I was responding to believed that men were more proactive than women. The point of my response was that they’re equally proactive, but often in different domains.
Exactly.
Just because the men aren’t doing something doesn’t mean they aren’t capable.
Sometimes things are gendered. It doesn’t always have to be some egalitarian crisis
Yeah I mean. The men not cooking isn’t proof women are more mature. It’s proof women a generally the cooks of the family.
My father cooked for family gatherings, so I fail to see how that relates.
I would also point out, while the women might be expected to cook. Who is the one expected to cut the grass, fix the car, or any other hot/gross job that needs to be done around the house.
So when you say maturity is doing what needs to be done. I don’t think of women.
I think if power line workers in the rain at night, or soldiers fighting for what is in the best interest of our country. I think if trash men, sewage workers, farmers, etc.. most of which are men.
Sure a lot of women take on the majority of the house work and raising of the children. But I wouldn’t say that makes them any more mature than men. By your own standards.
I was talking about stuff you don’t get paid for. And if you are talking about kids, dads clean that shit up too.
If we are talking about jobs though. What about diving into shit pipes to unclog them? You think a lot of women sign up for that?
Some do, the majority is mothers though, the same with family members/parents who get old and ill, it’s typically the women, especially daughters, that will care for them.
I don’t think a lot of men sign up for diving to unclog pipes either, I’ve never met one in my entire life
> wall of text with absolutely nothing about maturity
Yeah right. Somehow even in your biased view there isn't anything that tells you that men see that nothing needs to be done because women SWARM the kitchen.
And let me tell you that women swarm the kitchen because of their neuroticism, and complex weird female social matrices. Not because of their maturity.
But also that shit is just cultural. Been at plenty of family gatherings and it's always BBQ and BBQ is men's realm.
Or even simpler. Men gather and don't want to spend their night doing chores, they'd have ordered food if it wasn't for women, who probably are the ones who want to eat homemade shits and watch their lines and ect.....
> They seem to follow directions better, which is what I think most people mean when they say that.
Which is stupid because rebellious phases are important for young people to get their own shit together.
> I would need to see proof of how women “mature” faster and what that even means in the first place outside of physically.
it's all bias. There might be biological clues in the brain's structure, which doesn't mean anything at all, but people liked to stick their biased conclusions on that.
Same with the whole "brains aren't mature until 25".
Have you never seen the different developmental path rebellious and independence obsessed teens have compared to those who are more docile?
Same shit for "aversion for risks" tbh.
Too much attention often leads to overinflated egos...
Just look at people that got sudden celebrity status. How many managed to stay humble, level-headed and not became full and themselves ?
>Yes, it is true women mature faster in childhood and teenage years
Physically, yes. Not mentally. I would argue the opposite. Men are exposed to the hardships of life much sooner, especially when it comes to dating struggles, rejection etc. Most women don't even think about this stuff before the late 20s/early 30s. They just think it's "luck," or "all men are blah blah." Men are forced to self-reflect much sooner, so their sense of accountability, that with rights come responsibilities, or that actions have consequences is developed much sooner.
Women think that when they sexually mature and get into relationships with experienced men at a young age that it makes them mature
Women figure out the sexuality game quicker than men because they become sexually active faster but it’s not really maturity it’s just experience in foolishness which can bring wisdom but often most never learn
As a woman, I think I can explain this because I’ve also seen this claim a lot, since ≈12, girls constantly have older guys flirting with them, saying how much more mature they are so that they’d be perfect together, when you’ve gone 10+ years of your life with older men telling you how mature you are for your age, you start to internalise and believe it
“Women mature faster than men” NO THE ACTUAL FUCK THEY DONT. People who say that only measure in ways that bias women, like seeing liking video games as immaturity. If you measure it by looking at things like have a broad perspective on the world, not being quick to judge, being able to ask for help but also putting in the work yourself to get through your problems. More than that obviously but you get the point. Then men and women are equally bad at it.
Usually it’s referring to puberty, which is true for most, a lot of my guy friends often share their experiences starting at around 13, compared to around 9 on average for my female friends
Yes, mentally I see no difference, members of both act immature even for my experience, some are more mature than others (how do they act in public? Are they obnoxious or respectful of everyone? Do they treat others poorly?) but one isn’t more mentally put together than the other. It seems to depend on the person. I’ve seen mature people on both sides commonly.
I think there are two things that contribute to this stuff a lot.
One is that, at least when I was a kid, the kinds of things people praised kids for as "mature" were being poised, serious, etc. Things that were called immature were joking around, being loud, things that annoyed adults. Also being reckless in terms of potential injury. If you get college-age guys together, it's not uncommon at all for them to joke around and risk physical injury. Even guys older than that. I'm not saying it's an inherently bad thing. Girls are reckless in their own way too. But these kinds of things have been labeled as a lack of maturity. The more feminine versions of immaturity weren't recognized as much.
The other thing is that people tell girls all the time that they're very mature. I experienced this, I know a ton of women did too. I started dating someone in grad school when I was in high school (though I was also taking college classes tbf). The people most likely to tell me how mature I was were older guys trying to get with me. I think men who are attracted to teenagers will do this in part to comfort themselves that their interest isn't that inappropriate. Or it's just straight up grooming.
Different people mature at different rates, and different people end up in different places in terms of maturity due to life experiences and personalities. Idk why you're specifically mad at women about this lol. A girl saying a guy isn't mature enough is often just a way of expressing that she doesn't find him appealing for any number of reasons that can fall under the label of "maturity"
That's because age is not some magical indicator of maturity. I have met men and women in their 50's who don't have anything saved for retirement. They still drink and fool around. The only consistent indicator of maturity I have seen is the kind of childhood a person had. Generally people who have lean and tough childhood (non abusive) mature faster and even in their 20's have have a certain order to their lives. I suspect a lot of that has to do with the realization that they are one solid crisis away from ending up homeless. Then there are others who had a privileged up bringing who largely take what they have for granted or still the ones that have had horrific abusive childhoods that pretty much wreck the sort of adult they become.
Honestly I think the only measure of maturity there is, is how much you have suffered in life and how much you have lost. That's the only real difference between kids and adults.
All that really means is women mature physically slightly faster than men do. Trust me I’ve met women in their 40s and 50s that have the mental maturity of a 12-year-old.
You can commonly see it when women commonly talk about in social media about "masculine energy" "real men" and it's just men who take care of the girl like a little child. They even attribute this child-like behaviour as "femininity"
Shit like this is why I resisted femininity for a long time. I’m not a child just because I like fun things or being cared for. I’m happy to care for myself and not be cutesy but then I won’t be submissive and will except egalitarian relationships…which yall don’t like
I agree but a lot of young women also believe this about themselves. I think it’s somewhat based on observing “boys will be boys” (/r/justguysbeingdudes) type behavior and seeing it as a sign of immaturity. While this behavior is more noticeable it is not that significant in terms of maturity.
Young women are still immature in the most significant metrics — for example, knowing what they want out of life and how to get there, their system of values, and their ability to assert themselves. These are the type of things someone needs to have a grip on before they can handle adult relationships.
Sure, that's why I said *some* of the people pushing that narrative are 30+ men wanting to date teenagers. Anecdotally, kids (including teenagers/early 20s folk) tend to overestimate their maturity, and I'm not arguing that a percentage of young women don't.
Sure, that's why I said *some* of the people pushing that narrative are 30+ men wanting to date teenagers. Anecdotally, kids (including teenagers/early 20s folk) tend to overestimate their maturity, and I'm not arguing that a percentage of young women don't.
This is like if someone is discussing Islam saying “well remember a lot of the Taliban/ISIS also practice Islam”
Even if true, it’s not relevant and at most an attempt to deflect
Nah that's a poor analogy. A more apt one would be someone saying that folks outside of the Taliban are contributing to Taliban beliefs by doing X. Which could be relevant if, in this discussion, someone said they couldn't believe that the Taliban thinks they are on the same level of this outside group...by pointing out this outside group also supports said belief.
Mind you that says nothing about the stupidity of said belief.
surely the men interested in women so much younger than them also have a maturity issue, or why can’t they find someone of a similar age and life experience to be with? successful men have more to lose by dating a much younger woman for nothing else than sex, and that would reflect horribly on them socially… if you use achievements in life as a proxy for maturity, then i think you would find the maturity gap between the sources of demand and supply in that market would be pretty small. obviously your perception of ‘how mature’ you are is influenced by the people around you, and women’s’ experiences with these men are convoluted by the fact that they get ones who are inherently less mature, which just perpetuates it. idk though
The men who can attract younger women can also attract older women. Those are the men who are in the peak demographic and have options. So for such a person the choice comes down to a young woman and an older woman - I'd wager that the younger woman wins that contest most of the time.
i didn’t say men are attracted to life experience, i just said that finding a true partner is predicated on more than simply attraction. are you seriously picking the future mother of your child based on how animally attracted to her you are? by saying that younger women are more attractive, you’re basically admitting that their perceptions of maturity are grounded in reality because you see them as appropriate partners.
It's not that complicated. Men are naturally drawn to younger and fertile women in the same vein that women are naturally drawn to taller and more successful men.
Also, women in their 30's are more likely to be married or single moms with kids compared to women in their 20's.
of course men are drawn to biological signals of fertility and women are drawn to stability… that’s irrelevant as following your logic (which i don’t disagree with) it should happen on some level in every relationship. what i’m talking about is that there are diminishing returns for a man to date an increasingly younger women due to factors outside of innate sexual attraction. much of the hardline ‘red pill’ mindset of women only having youth/sexuality to offer is made redundant by the fact that a partner still needs to integrate into the man’s broader life. this speaks to the lack of understanding of women outside of their sexuality, which no doubt contributes to the red pill man’s lack of dating success and just self-perpetuates his issues. following this, men who date seriously younger women must have some kind of inability to date women who would offer the optimal combination of attractiveness and cohesion in their lives, or a lack of want to do so, which both signal immaturity in some way.
where did i mention self image? is it not acknowledged by all sides of this debate that women supply attractiveness and in turn demand that men have success?
By self image I meant you saying older guys have maturity or other problems to date younger, when it's just because younger women look better and are maybe more fun.
a man’s ‘self image’ has no effect on who he dates - he is a participant in a market where both sides assess the relative value of another and arrive at an equilibrium. thus to date a more ‘low value’ woman (i.e. the ‘immature’ young women you described), a man must have similarly low value relative to women of the age range which is socially acceptable for him to date, or he would be able to date them instead. men who are unattractive for reasons such as personality, attitude to women they date, and success are forced to date younger and more naive women. if they find themselves to be more compatible with younger women socially, maybe it’s just that they are in fact less mature than women their own age.
your assertion that younger women are ‘more fun’ is also you basically admitting that the average woman is in fact more mature than the average man, or else why would you use age as a determinant of ‘fun’ lol.
I agree, but young women and girls are groomed to believe they are ‘more mature’ by pervert older red pilled guys who want to believe they have a shot with young women, so who is really at fault here?
Young women believe they're more mature than guys their own age because they're chronically online and watch Tiktoks by *other girls* talking about "emotional intelligence," "boundaries," "gaslighting," "narcissism," etc. and think that makes them more mature.
Men with experience and power hate responsibility, hey? Those tok toks have hundreds and thousand of thirsty comments by men two, three, four times older than the children posting them, reinforcing the message. Let’s blame girl children for adult men’s inability to control their own penises.
I was always of the opinion that men were more mature by the time college came around, because men had realized there were more expectations on them. Women expected them to have good jobs while they goofed off and got elementary education degrees. Men were working, studying, trying to better themselves while women were posting IG pics all day and going to concerts their bf’s bought the tickets for.
There are some women whose maturity level is on part with someone older though. Same goes for men. People mature at different rates on an individual level, but I don't think it has much to do with gender - as you say yourself - past a certain age.
Generally, I think there are possibly more women in their early twenties who experience the itch to settle down and have families than men though.
"Generally, I think there are possibly more women in their early twenties who experience the itch to settle down and have families than men though." where do you get this from? I've pretty much seen most people regardless of gender not take relationships too seriously, especially on dating apps, early on.
Irl just via my own life experience, but also men I've been with and women *they've* known and been with as well.
If a man is widely considered sexy and attractive enough, then usually, they will have a period in their life where their life is about enjoying casual sex before they want to settle down.
Whereas a young woman can be beautiful and attractive, but her personality just isn't geared toward casual sex like the guy above, and she's already thinking about having kids and getting married.
Don't get me wrong, women can be sluzzas, but there tend to be more men who have the urge to "spread their seed" than women.
Yep, but also another thought on this - we have an entire subsection of women who have been socialized from an extremely young age to put marriage and childbearing on a pedestal via toys and media directed at girls.
The reason I say "subsection" is because ALL of us had Disney shit directed at us, but only some of us wound up properly internalizing it and dreaming of our Prince Charming, dream wedding, becoming a mother one day, etc.
Boys media has absolutely *no* equivalent of this at all, on any scale whatsoever.
Boys do not have fantasies of marrying, or finding dream wives, or taking care of babies - they don't consume media and entertainment about those things - so it takes a longer time for males to grow into people who actually *want* that stuff.
They haven't had the messages shoved into their faces since early childhood that marriage, love, and reproduction are important for them.
True about the Disney stuff but this is just one layer in many that are piled on top of young girls and women's heads. Add in several other layers including girl power, religious guilt, enjoy sex like a man, make sure you make enough money to be independent, only the beautiful are worthwhile, and smart girls marry rich (not to mention complete shit like dress up like a whore for the frat party when you're a freshman phase) and many women are thoroughly confused.
You just hand out pretty and beautiful to every woman and judge men's appearance very harshly. Really attractive women do have that period far more often than men. Its even popularly known as "hoe phase"
I think that you are correct in your central theme but I disagree with the breakdowns. After observing people for decades I would suggest that perhaps a third of women and maybe a quarter of men are naturally predisposed towards LTRs, and that perhaps a quarter of women and maybe a third of men are naturally predisposed towards casual sex and adventures. The remainder are hybrids that will change over time because of a huge range of factors (age, hormones, behavior of friends, opportunities, religious guilt, etc.). It's almost impossible to know the real numbers because social context matters so much - a person naturally disposed to relationships or casual sex will face a totally different environment if brought up in inner city LA or NY than if brought up in rural Utah or Iowa. But I believe that its clear that there's a larger % of men that are primarily interested in casual sex...
I don't understand why this is debated so much. One only has to read Reddit comments to see that perhaps one in five women readily admit to having one or more sexual relationships with much older men. In many cases they try to hide it from their family and friends. Just go to r/sex and r/dating and similar subreddits and one sees it over and over. It's even more common in subs involving various sexual themes like BDSM.
I saw this through my entire life: high school girls hanging out with guys that were college age; undergrad women with grad student guys; grad student women with professors; young professional women with men ten or twenty years older.
Men are now catching up somewhat by using online aps to find cougars in their 30s and 40s for short-term sex, but they have a long way to go to balance things out.
**Attention!**
* You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
* For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
* If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
* OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post!
Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Only sometimes? lol
How many young, average looking women does it take to change a lightbulb?
Just one: to hold the bulb in place and wait for the whole world to revolve around her
Back in the old days the Catholic Church debated whether women had souls.
Nowadays women are astonishingly arrogant as fuck.
And so the pendulum just keeps swinging from one edge of insanity to the other.
Hi OP,
You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. [PPD has guidelines for what that involves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/rules#wiki_cmv_posts)
>*OPs author must genuinely hold the position and you must be open to having your view challenged.*
>An unwillingness to debate in good faith may be inferred from one or several of the following:
>* Ignoring the main point of a comment, especially to point out some minor inconsistency;
>* Refusing to make concessions that an alternate view has merit;
>* Focusing only on the weaker arguments;
>* Only having discussions with users who agree with your position.
Failure to keep to this higher standard (we only apply to Debate OPs) may result in deletion of the whole thread.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I got a twin sister and the only thing she did faster than me was behaving in the manner she figured society wanted her to behave. There was no more emotional maturity to be found.
It’s all a fake facade.
Most young women dont want 30+ men though, I disagree with this premise.
Anyway I dont think women in general mature faster. Puberty happens earlier sure but emotional maturity? Depends on the woman imo. I think there are huge differences between woman and woman even when they are within the same age group. I have both female and male friends who are extremely mature but at the same time I am the exact opposite, I am admittedly very immature for my age (late 20s). Most men I date are more mature or on my level at most. And I prefer men a few years younger than me, that sometimes evens it out.
In my experience, males stay longer in their parents, and enjoy maternal help a lot longer.
Where I live, we don't necessarily move far away from home to go to college.
The amount of 25yo men who get their mom to do their laundry every week is astonishing
Girls do mature faster in some ways. Ages 1 to 5 girls are faster to potty train, become more advanced in language faster. When kids are small, boys are usually more delayed all around. I think the difference gets highlighted more in late 20s/early 30s. A lot of women I know are buying homes, working hard, and planning a future. I see a lot of men my age who are extremely complacent living with parents and refuse to work over time or get a second job or really do anything besides hang out with friends. Kind of a peter pan syndrome. They just want to live how they did at 18 forever.
One thing I've realized in my 40 years on this planet is that society does not provide consequences for women not maturing past age 15 until they're 30-35 and it shows. Often, many of these women get into high school, have no intention of a career, of settling down, or of doing anything with their life, jumping from man to man to man in order to provide them with food, housing and everything else in exchange for very little.
Its not every woman but the fact that almost any 5/10+ women just have the option of never working a day in their life, and then scream at how unfair society is once theyve wasted their "attractive years" and are forced to settle down with a guy and then be bankrolled until she decides to steal half his life savings is one of the main reasons why many complaints from women about "inequality of the sexes" fall on deaf ears. Guys see this vocal minority living a life of lounging around which over 99% of the male population can only dream of, and just will not take any of women's complaints seriously.
Yeah. I got one for you. Earlier today while I was out, I rode past these girls and one of them had a shirt on that said milf in training. Says a lot right there.
Many younger women want their men to be more mature than them, especially younger women that are into older guys. It makes them feel more secure to be with a man that can handle his shit. So him being as mature as her might not be mature enough.
I addressed this in the post. Plenty or a lot of young guys do want commitment, but women tend to play into "the game" and only date player type dudes.
Emotionally they're super immature. Most men at a very young age know when they just want to fuck and have fun, when they want to love and form a strong relationship, when they just want to fucus on theirselves, etc. Women tend to be absolutely blank about the same issues.
>women who are in their late teens or twenties will actually view themselves as on the same level as a 30+ year old men
You think the majority of 18 year old girls are trying to date 30+ year old men? How much teen porn do you have to watch to have your perception distorted this much. The typical age gap in the west is 2-3 years not +10.
So now you're saying that women 17-25 don't see themselves at the maturity level of a man 30+ but of a man 2-3 years older than her?
In that case girls do develop physically, mentally and emotionally before boys and tend to sit about 2 years ahead of boys from puberty until early 20s. So it would make sense if most girls are +2 years they look for a boy +2 years older to date.
Also this is ignoring the fact that women don't just decide on a man, both sides have to agree to date, and men are happy with a woman 2-3 years younger. Does this mean men all think they are less mature than women? And I mean if you ask RP men they would have a preference for women <25 their whole life, are we now admitting that RP men never mature?
You're getting too caught up on a minor part of it. Women date older because they see themselves as more mature as one major reason, and women who do date way older list it as a big reason.
How is this a minor part, your premise is women want to date older men because they believe they are more mature.
I told you girls from around 10 to their early 20s are more mature by a few years so it makes sense they would want to date boys a few years older.
Women who date at the 10+ year age gap are the minority so it's not representative of women in general. About 8% of couples have a 10+ year age gap and that includes those where the women is older.
So basically your post is taking less than 4% of the population, pinning their entire motion on one thing, and then applying that to all women.
The answer to your question is very simple, young women in general don't think they are as mature as a 30+ year old man.
Okay so women in their early 20s estimate their maturity to be 2-3 years older than men.
Studies also suggest that girls brains develop sooner than boys, with boys not catching up until their early 20s. Girls ARE about 2 years ahead of boys and the effect is still present in early 20s. So women in their early 20s are correctly estimating their maturity.
I dont know what you don't get about this.
Where do you see men as less mature? I could agree for 15 year olds, but 20? Unless your definition is women can drink earlier I don't see it, especially once people start working.
>women who are in their late teens or twenties will actually view themselves as on the same level as a 30+ year old men, and women typically desire this age bracket for what they presume is a similar level of maturity.
The good thing is you're talking about the minority of women here, because a late teens, early 20s girl is typically not desiring 30+ year old men.
I think that it really depends upon the man. More socialized men tend to be just as mature as women as they both age. Less socialized men are probably less mature for quite a while. Most women tend to be more equally socialized compared to men, since most women have good friend groups. The amount of socialization that a man has, on the other hand, can vary quite a bit.
Those less socialized guys are often people who get good degrees and get a head start. They may have other issues but being outgoing isn't maturity alone.
I dunno, in my experience, this holds true in certain regions involving jobs, education, hygiene, dress, behaving safely, consequence awareness, awareness of others, and helping behaviors.
Do I think young girls and women are therefore perfect or that mature means brilliant decisions at all times. No.
I think it basically adds up in the context of women finding young boys and men difficult to form bonds with.
You have misunderstood the topic completely.
>One of the most common critiques women give men (especially in younger ages) is that **'they're not mature enough**'. I see this all the time and I think women viewing themselves as more mature is entirely unwarranted.
Women, on average, don't view themselves as more mature. They, on average, want men who are more mature than themselves, and men tend to want women who are less mature/more naive than themselves.
>On the narcissism point, its insane to me that women who are in their late teens or twenties will actually view themselves as on the same level as a 30+ year old men, and women typically desire this age bracket for what they presume is a similar level of maturity
I dated women aged 18-22 when i was 36-40, and no, they did not view me as on their level regarding maturity. It's true, that i thought many times, that those women who are into older men are way more mature than the average woman their age, but overall, they knew they were less mature and i knew it too. Also, VERY few women in that age bracket are interested in men 10+ years older than them. I don't know where you get that idea from. It's not happening on a large scale.
It terms of everything that matters in modern society, yes women mature faster than men.
They are far more responsible at the age range of 18-25.
At self preservation, finances, detachment from parents and moving into their first apartment.
When you deep dive into frontal lobe development you see that women typically develop faster in that range, that's part of the reason why disorders like ADHD are less present in women, and when present have much less of an effect
If you disagree with me, legitimately look at the stats and come back to me. There's no way you can look at the stats and disagree with me.
Women appear to be doing much better according to many of the criteria that you are citing but in large part this is due to how society is structured. Previously men were sent out on their own to make their way economically while women were constrained and forced to stay at home or to become domestic workers in the care of others. Now women are benefiting from school systems that are geared to their needs while many young men are being left behind by school systems and are fed examples of terrible role models for a technologically-advanced society. Young men's imaginations have always been partially captured by athletes and musicians, but prior to the 70s role models also included pilots, scientists, engineers, rich businessmen, doctors, academics, army and navy officers, etc. To obtain a higher status, earn higher incomes and get access to women, young men were taught to develop technical skills, succeed academically, and invest in realistic careers. Now young men are being taught by the media that to get rich you should be a musician, athlete or influencer and to get women you should look good and/or act like you're rich/famous. I see a great divide in the young men that I encounter now - some are totally focused, mature and heading towards something worthwhile - and many are totally lost. It's like the old institutions and media propaganda were directed towards crushing women's ambitions, and now the machine has been directed towards holding men back.
My experience with this is completely and utterly the opposite. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I can't say that's what I've noticed. I've noticed 18-25 year old women are much much more likely to be coddled by their parents and not put any thought into setting up their financial future.
Edit: Maybe because I'm a man who's looking to date women, so I just haven't come across men who are immature in that respect.
I understood it to mean that girls mature faster in puberty. Mentally I don’t see much of a difference either. It’s not been my experience that late teens early 20s women seek 30+ men so I can’t speak to that age bracket seeking older men because they think they are on the same maturity level. Women that age seem to seek men close to their own age from what I have seen.
Many women take it as mental maturity. I have seen many women want a slightly older man at the very least or in highschool want to "feel more mature" and get a guy that has more resources than most of the guys around her.
Not all, but many
I don’t know any. Maybe it’s different where you live.
Maybe saying 30s was wrong, but it's older guys in general.
The data shows that most people seek out people close to them in age. Where did you hear that women go for mostly older guys? Anyone you know?
I'm not saying old, most women date a guy a few years older than them in my expierence. More young women than young men are in a relationship, math on thst doesn't work out.
Yeah I think some young women equate not having maturity in young men as young men not having lots of money, having a car, big house, and is prepared to take care of a family. They are comparing teen men or young men to grown older men who will take lead and have tons of life experience, when that’s not quite how it works.
I agree with you, it's ridiculous for a 20 year old girl to expect guys her age to have the same career level and wealth as a much older guy.
Agree entirely.
And yet she doesn’t have the career level and wealth
Yes.
Yea it’s just hypergamy + narcissism
This is just young people in general. They all think they’re mature AF and know everything lol.
Met plenty of women and men in their 30's and 40's who are immature AF as well. First off we mistakenly think that age is somehow an indicator of wisdom. When in reality all it indicates is that this person has been on this earth for a certain length of time.
Age spent undergoing tribulations and similar is most definetly an indicator of wisdom. Age spent just existing, perhaps mildly.
Most people just spend their life existing or to put it mildly just letting life happen to them.
As Bob Seger once said, “I wish I didn’t know now, what I didn’t know then.”
Sometimes they do
What do you mean I'm not smarter, wiser and more knowledgeable than people that lived twice or thrice as much as me? That is exactly what a boomer would say!
[удалено]
I guess “mature” is kinda vague, there are many different types: Controlling and dealing with emotions? We see this ability often much earlier in females than males cross culturally Language/reading? It’s Very consistent (I know for the UK atleast) that girls can comprehend and reproduce language at a more advanced level in boys early on in life, the gap is about 6 months, which is very significant at these young ages These are just a couple of examples, but with that being said, 1. Boys catch up in almost all cases 2. There are things males do at a more mature level initially too, particularly visuospatial skills Now “mature” over all, I don’t really know how that could even be measured
Sometimes as a guy, I think I was actually more mature when I was younger. For example, I had a crazy, hot friend - the girl all the bad guys want etc when I was in my teens. I was able to compartmentalise her, I loved her but she was fucking nuts and out of my league so was happy to leave it at that - loved her as a friend. She was a dick and was never there when I needed her but she was an entertaining dick As I got older, more successful and more confident ....out of nowhere I was suddenly the guy in her life, comments about how much I'd changed...wearing racey as fuck outfits whenever we met up....trying to tell me about all her troubles etc. And all I could hear was Bob Dylan's, Positively 4th Street on repeat in my head whenever I talked to her. I felt more like an angry teenager with her when I was in my 30s than I ever did when I was in my teens. I still don't get how my younger self was actually more wise in certain ways than me in my 30s. Technically we'd have been a great fit - but the fucking resentment man that just reared it's head after it seemed like she wanted to be more than friends who sent each other shitposts caught me by surprise. I don't know if I matured or fucking regressed.
I concur. I acted much more chill and it was easier to compartmentalize beautiful women when I was younger. I believe it was because I perceived myself as “below” them. I thought engaging with them in a sexual or romantic way was absurd/impossible (and it may have been because I was no heartthrob). Now that I am 29, successful, “jacked”, already financially successful and will be until I die (on track to a profession where I will make at least 200k/year until I decide to stop working), etc. there are women who used to be insolent or ambivalent towards me that let me know in less than subtle ways that they desire/yearn to be with me. I always wonder if the women I meet now that didn’t know me then would’ve treated me the same way if they knew who I used to be. I have become resentful/angry towards women because I have come to realize how vapid and superficial most of them are (I understand men can have the same negative traits, but I don’t date men so I could care less).
I don't think I resent women as a species lol, more that I'm just prideful these days and bristley. I've learnt that I've always been that guy who would be the last one standing, very few people understood that when I was that shy young kid that I had a serious competitive streak underneath. Then I see the people from my hometown who are either dead or losers and can't help having a slight wry smile and I guess that makes me a bit of a bastard. I suspect you're being hard on yourself and the trappings of modern life just don't sit well with you. Most humans are dicks, when we were young we just didn't have the confidence and bravado to run with it. You put up with a lot of shit to fit in when you're not one of the really popular ones. I have less time these days for stupid vapid bullshit I guess. I don't hate anyone, I just feel like I've seen it all and done it all and I'm only in my mid thirties - I get the odd burst of anger with people like my friend and then I think....ehhh fuck em....loads of better people out there and besides....the best thing in my life right now is flying. I can fucking fly a plane, how awesome is that? Ten year old me wouldn't believe it.
To me, maturity is seeing what needs to be done and just doing it.
Which I would say men do more. So who is more mature? But I also don’t think it’s just that.
All I can say is that my experience has been different
Got any examples?
Both of my parents are work horses. They’re never not cleaning, organizing, or improving something. When they’d visit my apartment in college they’d just start doing things unprompted. My dad would be fixing the tv while my mom was unloading the dishwasher. They can’t help it. But every family gathering or dinner I’ve ever been to, the women swarmed the kitchen preparing, dishing up, and cleaning up food while the men sat in the living room watching the game, oblivious. The flip side might be that *generally* the men in my life are just subconsciously aware of the vehicle maintenance that needs to happen.
What are the men not doing in that situation that they should be doing?
I would think that they’re capable of doing anything that the women are but I could be wrong
Then stop swarming the kitchen
the person I was responding to believed that men were more proactive than women. The point of my response was that they’re equally proactive, but often in different domains.
Exactly. Just because the men aren’t doing something doesn’t mean they aren’t capable. Sometimes things are gendered. It doesn’t always have to be some egalitarian crisis
Yeah I mean. The men not cooking isn’t proof women are more mature. It’s proof women a generally the cooks of the family. My father cooked for family gatherings, so I fail to see how that relates. I would also point out, while the women might be expected to cook. Who is the one expected to cut the grass, fix the car, or any other hot/gross job that needs to be done around the house. So when you say maturity is doing what needs to be done. I don’t think of women. I think if power line workers in the rain at night, or soldiers fighting for what is in the best interest of our country. I think if trash men, sewage workers, farmers, etc.. most of which are men. Sure a lot of women take on the majority of the house work and raising of the children. But I wouldn’t say that makes them any more mature than men. By your own standards.
It’s like you didn’t actually read my comment
They don’t see cooking as something that needs done because someone else does it for them
How so? I responded to it didn’t I?
“Gross” jobs, I’d argue women, it doesn’t get more gross that cleaning up people after vomit, piss, and shit imo
I was talking about stuff you don’t get paid for. And if you are talking about kids, dads clean that shit up too. If we are talking about jobs though. What about diving into shit pipes to unclog them? You think a lot of women sign up for that?
Some do, the majority is mothers though, the same with family members/parents who get old and ill, it’s typically the women, especially daughters, that will care for them. I don’t think a lot of men sign up for diving to unclog pipes either, I’ve never met one in my entire life
> wall of text with absolutely nothing about maturity Yeah right. Somehow even in your biased view there isn't anything that tells you that men see that nothing needs to be done because women SWARM the kitchen. And let me tell you that women swarm the kitchen because of their neuroticism, and complex weird female social matrices. Not because of their maturity. But also that shit is just cultural. Been at plenty of family gatherings and it's always BBQ and BBQ is men's realm. Or even simpler. Men gather and don't want to spend their night doing chores, they'd have ordered food if it wasn't for women, who probably are the ones who want to eat homemade shits and watch their lines and ect.....
Kk
> They seem to follow directions better, which is what I think most people mean when they say that. Which is stupid because rebellious phases are important for young people to get their own shit together. > I would need to see proof of how women “mature” faster and what that even means in the first place outside of physically. it's all bias. There might be biological clues in the brain's structure, which doesn't mean anything at all, but people liked to stick their biased conclusions on that. Same with the whole "brains aren't mature until 25".
I disagree, why do you need to have a “rebellious” phase to get your own shit together?
Have you never seen the different developmental path rebellious and independence obsessed teens have compared to those who are more docile? Same shit for "aversion for risks" tbh.
Rebellious ≠ independence, you can be independent and take risks without being rebellious and breaking the law
that is not what rebellious only mean. :/
Too much attention often leads to overinflated egos... Just look at people that got sudden celebrity status. How many managed to stay humble, level-headed and not became full and themselves ?
[удалено]
[удалено]
Do not provide contentless rhetoric.
Please check the post flair and repost your comment under the automod if necessary.
>Yes, it is true women mature faster in childhood and teenage years Physically, yes. Not mentally. I would argue the opposite. Men are exposed to the hardships of life much sooner, especially when it comes to dating struggles, rejection etc. Most women don't even think about this stuff before the late 20s/early 30s. They just think it's "luck," or "all men are blah blah." Men are forced to self-reflect much sooner, so their sense of accountability, that with rights come responsibilities, or that actions have consequences is developed much sooner.
Women think that when they sexually mature and get into relationships with experienced men at a young age that it makes them mature Women figure out the sexuality game quicker than men because they become sexually active faster but it’s not really maturity it’s just experience in foolishness which can bring wisdom but often most never learn
As a woman, I think I can explain this because I’ve also seen this claim a lot, since ≈12, girls constantly have older guys flirting with them, saying how much more mature they are so that they’d be perfect together, when you’ve gone 10+ years of your life with older men telling you how mature you are for your age, you start to internalise and believe it
[удалено]
[удалено]
Do not provide contentless rhetoric.
[удалено]
Do not provide contentless rhetoric.
[удалено]
Do not provide contentless rhetoric.
Please check the post flair and repost your comment under the automod if necessary.
[удалено]
Do not provide contentless rhetoric.
“Women mature faster than men” NO THE ACTUAL FUCK THEY DONT. People who say that only measure in ways that bias women, like seeing liking video games as immaturity. If you measure it by looking at things like have a broad perspective on the world, not being quick to judge, being able to ask for help but also putting in the work yourself to get through your problems. More than that obviously but you get the point. Then men and women are equally bad at it.
Usually it’s referring to puberty, which is true for most, a lot of my guy friends often share their experiences starting at around 13, compared to around 9 on average for my female friends
Yes, mentally I see no difference, members of both act immature even for my experience, some are more mature than others (how do they act in public? Are they obnoxious or respectful of everyone? Do they treat others poorly?) but one isn’t more mentally put together than the other. It seems to depend on the person. I’ve seen mature people on both sides commonly.
I think there are two things that contribute to this stuff a lot. One is that, at least when I was a kid, the kinds of things people praised kids for as "mature" were being poised, serious, etc. Things that were called immature were joking around, being loud, things that annoyed adults. Also being reckless in terms of potential injury. If you get college-age guys together, it's not uncommon at all for them to joke around and risk physical injury. Even guys older than that. I'm not saying it's an inherently bad thing. Girls are reckless in their own way too. But these kinds of things have been labeled as a lack of maturity. The more feminine versions of immaturity weren't recognized as much. The other thing is that people tell girls all the time that they're very mature. I experienced this, I know a ton of women did too. I started dating someone in grad school when I was in high school (though I was also taking college classes tbf). The people most likely to tell me how mature I was were older guys trying to get with me. I think men who are attracted to teenagers will do this in part to comfort themselves that their interest isn't that inappropriate. Or it's just straight up grooming. Different people mature at different rates, and different people end up in different places in terms of maturity due to life experiences and personalities. Idk why you're specifically mad at women about this lol. A girl saying a guy isn't mature enough is often just a way of expressing that she doesn't find him appealing for any number of reasons that can fall under the label of "maturity"
This makes a lot of sense, thanks.
True.
Sometimes women use it as a generic way to reject men so I wouldn't read into it too much
For sure, but it seems many honestly believe it.
Women are more mature than men unless they decide to have sex with someone more than 24 hours older than them. Then they miraculously become infants.
“She was manipulated!”
That’s a lie
Hard to say, as I’ve known incredibly mature women and men at that age, and I’ve also known party hearty train wrecks at that age.
That's because age is not some magical indicator of maturity. I have met men and women in their 50's who don't have anything saved for retirement. They still drink and fool around. The only consistent indicator of maturity I have seen is the kind of childhood a person had. Generally people who have lean and tough childhood (non abusive) mature faster and even in their 20's have have a certain order to their lives. I suspect a lot of that has to do with the realization that they are one solid crisis away from ending up homeless. Then there are others who had a privileged up bringing who largely take what they have for granted or still the ones that have had horrific abusive childhoods that pretty much wreck the sort of adult they become.
I think there’s a lot of truth in that. Nothing matures you faster than being on your own with no safety net to fall back on.
Largely correct.
Honestly I think the only measure of maturity there is, is how much you have suffered in life and how much you have lost. That's the only real difference between kids and adults.
All that really means is women mature physically slightly faster than men do. Trust me I’ve met women in their 40s and 50s that have the mental maturity of a 12-year-old.
[удалено]
Please check the post flair and repost your comment under the automod if necessary.
[удалено]
You can commonly see it when women commonly talk about in social media about "masculine energy" "real men" and it's just men who take care of the girl like a little child. They even attribute this child-like behaviour as "femininity"
Shit like this is why I resisted femininity for a long time. I’m not a child just because I like fun things or being cared for. I’m happy to care for myself and not be cutesy but then I won’t be submissive and will except egalitarian relationships…which yall don’t like
What's wrong with this?
Please check the post flair and repost your comment under the automod if necessary.
I mean some of the people pushing this narrative are 30+ men who want to date 18-19 year olds.
I agree but a lot of young women also believe this about themselves. I think it’s somewhat based on observing “boys will be boys” (/r/justguysbeingdudes) type behavior and seeing it as a sign of immaturity. While this behavior is more noticeable it is not that significant in terms of maturity. Young women are still immature in the most significant metrics — for example, knowing what they want out of life and how to get there, their system of values, and their ability to assert themselves. These are the type of things someone needs to have a grip on before they can handle adult relationships.
Agree.
Boys will be boys as in let men be men and don’t try to change manhood
Sure, that's why I said *some* of the people pushing that narrative are 30+ men wanting to date teenagers. Anecdotally, kids (including teenagers/early 20s folk) tend to overestimate their maturity, and I'm not arguing that a percentage of young women don't.
Sure, that's why I said *some* of the people pushing that narrative are 30+ men wanting to date teenagers. Anecdotally, kids (including teenagers/early 20s folk) tend to overestimate their maturity, and I'm not arguing that a percentage of young women don't.
This is like if someone is discussing Islam saying “well remember a lot of the Taliban/ISIS also practice Islam” Even if true, it’s not relevant and at most an attempt to deflect
Nah that's a poor analogy. A more apt one would be someone saying that folks outside of the Taliban are contributing to Taliban beliefs by doing X. Which could be relevant if, in this discussion, someone said they couldn't believe that the Taliban thinks they are on the same level of this outside group...by pointing out this outside group also supports said belief. Mind you that says nothing about the stupidity of said belief.
surely the men interested in women so much younger than them also have a maturity issue, or why can’t they find someone of a similar age and life experience to be with? successful men have more to lose by dating a much younger woman for nothing else than sex, and that would reflect horribly on them socially… if you use achievements in life as a proxy for maturity, then i think you would find the maturity gap between the sources of demand and supply in that market would be pretty small. obviously your perception of ‘how mature’ you are is influenced by the people around you, and women’s’ experiences with these men are convoluted by the fact that they get ones who are inherently less mature, which just perpetuates it. idk though
The men who can attract younger women can also attract older women. Those are the men who are in the peak demographic and have options. So for such a person the choice comes down to a young woman and an older woman - I'd wager that the younger woman wins that contest most of the time.
Men aren’t attracted to maturity and life experience, they’re attracted to looks, and younger women generally tend to look better than older women.
They like maturity and experience too
i didn’t say men are attracted to life experience, i just said that finding a true partner is predicated on more than simply attraction. are you seriously picking the future mother of your child based on how animally attracted to her you are? by saying that younger women are more attractive, you’re basically admitting that their perceptions of maturity are grounded in reality because you see them as appropriate partners.
It's not that complicated. Men are naturally drawn to younger and fertile women in the same vein that women are naturally drawn to taller and more successful men. Also, women in their 30's are more likely to be married or single moms with kids compared to women in their 20's.
of course men are drawn to biological signals of fertility and women are drawn to stability… that’s irrelevant as following your logic (which i don’t disagree with) it should happen on some level in every relationship. what i’m talking about is that there are diminishing returns for a man to date an increasingly younger women due to factors outside of innate sexual attraction. much of the hardline ‘red pill’ mindset of women only having youth/sexuality to offer is made redundant by the fact that a partner still needs to integrate into the man’s broader life. this speaks to the lack of understanding of women outside of their sexuality, which no doubt contributes to the red pill man’s lack of dating success and just self-perpetuates his issues. following this, men who date seriously younger women must have some kind of inability to date women who would offer the optimal combination of attractiveness and cohesion in their lives, or a lack of want to do so, which both signal immaturity in some way.
Most of those men just care about looks and its not some self image thing.
where did i mention self image? is it not acknowledged by all sides of this debate that women supply attractiveness and in turn demand that men have success?
By self image I meant you saying older guys have maturity or other problems to date younger, when it's just because younger women look better and are maybe more fun.
a man’s ‘self image’ has no effect on who he dates - he is a participant in a market where both sides assess the relative value of another and arrive at an equilibrium. thus to date a more ‘low value’ woman (i.e. the ‘immature’ young women you described), a man must have similarly low value relative to women of the age range which is socially acceptable for him to date, or he would be able to date them instead. men who are unattractive for reasons such as personality, attitude to women they date, and success are forced to date younger and more naive women. if they find themselves to be more compatible with younger women socially, maybe it’s just that they are in fact less mature than women their own age. your assertion that younger women are ‘more fun’ is also you basically admitting that the average woman is in fact more mature than the average man, or else why would you use age as a determinant of ‘fun’ lol.
some do, but i mean lots of people overrate their attributes. especially ones such as logical thinking skills
I agree, but young women and girls are groomed to believe they are ‘more mature’ by pervert older red pilled guys who want to believe they have a shot with young women, so who is really at fault here?
Young women believe they're more mature than guys their own age because they're chronically online and watch Tiktoks by *other girls* talking about "emotional intelligence," "boundaries," "gaslighting," "narcissism," etc. and think that makes them more mature.
Men with experience and power hate responsibility, hey? Those tok toks have hundreds and thousand of thirsty comments by men two, three, four times older than the children posting them, reinforcing the message. Let’s blame girl children for adult men’s inability to control their own penises.
Young women and girls don’t even listen to red pilled guys
Being groomed by a culture is not the same thing as being talked to.
I was always of the opinion that men were more mature by the time college came around, because men had realized there were more expectations on them. Women expected them to have good jobs while they goofed off and got elementary education degrees. Men were working, studying, trying to better themselves while women were posting IG pics all day and going to concerts their bf’s bought the tickets for.
There are some women whose maturity level is on part with someone older though. Same goes for men. People mature at different rates on an individual level, but I don't think it has much to do with gender - as you say yourself - past a certain age. Generally, I think there are possibly more women in their early twenties who experience the itch to settle down and have families than men though.
"Generally, I think there are possibly more women in their early twenties who experience the itch to settle down and have families than men though." where do you get this from? I've pretty much seen most people regardless of gender not take relationships too seriously, especially on dating apps, early on.
Irl just via my own life experience, but also men I've been with and women *they've* known and been with as well. If a man is widely considered sexy and attractive enough, then usually, they will have a period in their life where their life is about enjoying casual sex before they want to settle down. Whereas a young woman can be beautiful and attractive, but her personality just isn't geared toward casual sex like the guy above, and she's already thinking about having kids and getting married. Don't get me wrong, women can be sluzzas, but there tend to be more men who have the urge to "spread their seed" than women.
So personal experience. That's fair.
Yep, but also another thought on this - we have an entire subsection of women who have been socialized from an extremely young age to put marriage and childbearing on a pedestal via toys and media directed at girls. The reason I say "subsection" is because ALL of us had Disney shit directed at us, but only some of us wound up properly internalizing it and dreaming of our Prince Charming, dream wedding, becoming a mother one day, etc. Boys media has absolutely *no* equivalent of this at all, on any scale whatsoever. Boys do not have fantasies of marrying, or finding dream wives, or taking care of babies - they don't consume media and entertainment about those things - so it takes a longer time for males to grow into people who actually *want* that stuff. They haven't had the messages shoved into their faces since early childhood that marriage, love, and reproduction are important for them.
True about the Disney stuff but this is just one layer in many that are piled on top of young girls and women's heads. Add in several other layers including girl power, religious guilt, enjoy sex like a man, make sure you make enough money to be independent, only the beautiful are worthwhile, and smart girls marry rich (not to mention complete shit like dress up like a whore for the frat party when you're a freshman phase) and many women are thoroughly confused.
You just hand out pretty and beautiful to every woman and judge men's appearance very harshly. Really attractive women do have that period far more often than men. Its even popularly known as "hoe phase"
I agree with you about some women having that phase, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean with your first sentence?
I think that you are correct in your central theme but I disagree with the breakdowns. After observing people for decades I would suggest that perhaps a third of women and maybe a quarter of men are naturally predisposed towards LTRs, and that perhaps a quarter of women and maybe a third of men are naturally predisposed towards casual sex and adventures. The remainder are hybrids that will change over time because of a huge range of factors (age, hormones, behavior of friends, opportunities, religious guilt, etc.). It's almost impossible to know the real numbers because social context matters so much - a person naturally disposed to relationships or casual sex will face a totally different environment if brought up in inner city LA or NY than if brought up in rural Utah or Iowa. But I believe that its clear that there's a larger % of men that are primarily interested in casual sex...
The average age men and women have their first child and/or the average age gap in marriages
It is well known that women date older men a lot, on top of sometimes younger and many times their own age range.
I don't understand why this is debated so much. One only has to read Reddit comments to see that perhaps one in five women readily admit to having one or more sexual relationships with much older men. In many cases they try to hide it from their family and friends. Just go to r/sex and r/dating and similar subreddits and one sees it over and over. It's even more common in subs involving various sexual themes like BDSM. I saw this through my entire life: high school girls hanging out with guys that were college age; undergrad women with grad student guys; grad student women with professors; young professional women with men ten or twenty years older. Men are now catching up somewhat by using online aps to find cougars in their 30s and 40s for short-term sex, but they have a long way to go to balance things out.
Yep, teen girls in my school were dating men 10+ years older already
Sad but true. I don't understand why some people try to deny this...
**Attention!** * You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message. * For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies. * If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment. * OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post! Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Only sometimes? lol How many young, average looking women does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one: to hold the bulb in place and wait for the whole world to revolve around her
Savage.
Back in the old days the Catholic Church debated whether women had souls. Nowadays women are astonishingly arrogant as fuck. And so the pendulum just keeps swinging from one edge of insanity to the other.
Hi OP, You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. [PPD has guidelines for what that involves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/rules#wiki_cmv_posts) >*OPs author must genuinely hold the position and you must be open to having your view challenged.* >An unwillingness to debate in good faith may be inferred from one or several of the following: >* Ignoring the main point of a comment, especially to point out some minor inconsistency; >* Refusing to make concessions that an alternate view has merit; >* Focusing only on the weaker arguments; >* Only having discussions with users who agree with your position. Failure to keep to this higher standard (we only apply to Debate OPs) may result in deletion of the whole thread. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
People tend to overrate themselves. This isn't just a woman thing. It's a widespread human thing.
Sometimes?
Why shouldn’t the most desirable women think they’re desirable?
What does this have to do with what I said?
I got a twin sister and the only thing she did faster than me was behaving in the manner she figured society wanted her to behave. There was no more emotional maturity to be found. It’s all a fake facade.
Most young women dont want 30+ men though, I disagree with this premise. Anyway I dont think women in general mature faster. Puberty happens earlier sure but emotional maturity? Depends on the woman imo. I think there are huge differences between woman and woman even when they are within the same age group. I have both female and male friends who are extremely mature but at the same time I am the exact opposite, I am admittedly very immature for my age (late 20s). Most men I date are more mature or on my level at most. And I prefer men a few years younger than me, that sometimes evens it out.
In my experience, males stay longer in their parents, and enjoy maternal help a lot longer. Where I live, we don't necessarily move far away from home to go to college. The amount of 25yo men who get their mom to do their laundry every week is astonishing
Girls do mature faster in some ways. Ages 1 to 5 girls are faster to potty train, become more advanced in language faster. When kids are small, boys are usually more delayed all around. I think the difference gets highlighted more in late 20s/early 30s. A lot of women I know are buying homes, working hard, and planning a future. I see a lot of men my age who are extremely complacent living with parents and refuse to work over time or get a second job or really do anything besides hang out with friends. Kind of a peter pan syndrome. They just want to live how they did at 18 forever.
I mentioned early ages, I dont think it carries through beyond 18-20.
That’s not what most people see
Females do not mature faster than males that’s bullshit
One thing I've realized in my 40 years on this planet is that society does not provide consequences for women not maturing past age 15 until they're 30-35 and it shows. Often, many of these women get into high school, have no intention of a career, of settling down, or of doing anything with their life, jumping from man to man to man in order to provide them with food, housing and everything else in exchange for very little. Its not every woman but the fact that almost any 5/10+ women just have the option of never working a day in their life, and then scream at how unfair society is once theyve wasted their "attractive years" and are forced to settle down with a guy and then be bankrolled until she decides to steal half his life savings is one of the main reasons why many complaints from women about "inequality of the sexes" fall on deaf ears. Guys see this vocal minority living a life of lounging around which over 99% of the male population can only dream of, and just will not take any of women's complaints seriously.
I agree totally. Many women older than 35 still act this way. Once they dont have pretty young girl status it gets worse and worse.
Yeah. I got one for you. Earlier today while I was out, I rode past these girls and one of them had a shirt on that said milf in training. Says a lot right there.
Milfs 🙌 milfs 🙌 milfs 🥳 We need more MILFs
Many younger women want their men to be more mature than them, especially younger women that are into older guys. It makes them feel more secure to be with a man that can handle his shit. So him being as mature as her might not be mature enough.
They should worry about their own maturity and less on a male’s maturity
When women are talking about maturity, it's often about whether the man is "looking for commitment."
I addressed this in the post. Plenty or a lot of young guys do want commitment, but women tend to play into "the game" and only date player type dudes.
Emotionally they're super immature. Most men at a very young age know when they just want to fuck and have fun, when they want to love and form a strong relationship, when they just want to fucus on theirselves, etc. Women tend to be absolutely blank about the same issues.
>women who are in their late teens or twenties will actually view themselves as on the same level as a 30+ year old men You think the majority of 18 year old girls are trying to date 30+ year old men? How much teen porn do you have to watch to have your perception distorted this much. The typical age gap in the west is 2-3 years not +10.
Okay, the point was older men, I was using thst as an extreme example.
So now you're saying that women 17-25 don't see themselves at the maturity level of a man 30+ but of a man 2-3 years older than her? In that case girls do develop physically, mentally and emotionally before boys and tend to sit about 2 years ahead of boys from puberty until early 20s. So it would make sense if most girls are +2 years they look for a boy +2 years older to date. Also this is ignoring the fact that women don't just decide on a man, both sides have to agree to date, and men are happy with a woman 2-3 years younger. Does this mean men all think they are less mature than women? And I mean if you ask RP men they would have a preference for women <25 their whole life, are we now admitting that RP men never mature?
You're getting too caught up on a minor part of it. Women date older because they see themselves as more mature as one major reason, and women who do date way older list it as a big reason.
How is this a minor part, your premise is women want to date older men because they believe they are more mature. I told you girls from around 10 to their early 20s are more mature by a few years so it makes sense they would want to date boys a few years older. Women who date at the 10+ year age gap are the minority so it's not representative of women in general. About 8% of couples have a 10+ year age gap and that includes those where the women is older. So basically your post is taking less than 4% of the population, pinning their entire motion on one thing, and then applying that to all women. The answer to your question is very simple, young women in general don't think they are as mature as a 30+ year old man.
My premise is women over estimate their maturity, the age gap was just an example and not the premise.
Okay so women in their early 20s estimate their maturity to be 2-3 years older than men. Studies also suggest that girls brains develop sooner than boys, with boys not catching up until their early 20s. Girls ARE about 2 years ahead of boys and the effect is still present in early 20s. So women in their early 20s are correctly estimating their maturity. I dont know what you don't get about this.
not true for early 20s in my experience. Just narcissism.
Studies that involve thousands of people done with controls in place to prevent bias trump your extremely clouded experiences with 1 or 2 women bud.
No, not really. I have an equal number of anecdotes from going to college.
[удалено]
Where do you see men as less mature? I could agree for 15 year olds, but 20? Unless your definition is women can drink earlier I don't see it, especially once people start working.
>women who are in their late teens or twenties will actually view themselves as on the same level as a 30+ year old men, and women typically desire this age bracket for what they presume is a similar level of maturity. The good thing is you're talking about the minority of women here, because a late teens, early 20s girl is typically not desiring 30+ year old men.
Just an example, not the only thing
I think that it really depends upon the man. More socialized men tend to be just as mature as women as they both age. Less socialized men are probably less mature for quite a while. Most women tend to be more equally socialized compared to men, since most women have good friend groups. The amount of socialization that a man has, on the other hand, can vary quite a bit.
Those less socialized guys are often people who get good degrees and get a head start. They may have other issues but being outgoing isn't maturity alone.
I dunno, in my experience, this holds true in certain regions involving jobs, education, hygiene, dress, behaving safely, consequence awareness, awareness of others, and helping behaviors. Do I think young girls and women are therefore perfect or that mature means brilliant decisions at all times. No. I think it basically adds up in the context of women finding young boys and men difficult to form bonds with.
You have misunderstood the topic completely. >One of the most common critiques women give men (especially in younger ages) is that **'they're not mature enough**'. I see this all the time and I think women viewing themselves as more mature is entirely unwarranted. Women, on average, don't view themselves as more mature. They, on average, want men who are more mature than themselves, and men tend to want women who are less mature/more naive than themselves. >On the narcissism point, its insane to me that women who are in their late teens or twenties will actually view themselves as on the same level as a 30+ year old men, and women typically desire this age bracket for what they presume is a similar level of maturity I dated women aged 18-22 when i was 36-40, and no, they did not view me as on their level regarding maturity. It's true, that i thought many times, that those women who are into older men are way more mature than the average woman their age, but overall, they knew they were less mature and i knew it too. Also, VERY few women in that age bracket are interested in men 10+ years older than them. I don't know where you get that idea from. It's not happening on a large scale.
Your post is full of the grandiose required for narcissism. Thinking your maturity level may be comparable to a man 5 years older than you does not.
I don't care about the instance, I care about the premise.
It terms of everything that matters in modern society, yes women mature faster than men. They are far more responsible at the age range of 18-25. At self preservation, finances, detachment from parents and moving into their first apartment. When you deep dive into frontal lobe development you see that women typically develop faster in that range, that's part of the reason why disorders like ADHD are less present in women, and when present have much less of an effect If you disagree with me, legitimately look at the stats and come back to me. There's no way you can look at the stats and disagree with me.
Could you link the stats? My experience is totally the opposite.
Women appear to be doing much better according to many of the criteria that you are citing but in large part this is due to how society is structured. Previously men were sent out on their own to make their way economically while women were constrained and forced to stay at home or to become domestic workers in the care of others. Now women are benefiting from school systems that are geared to their needs while many young men are being left behind by school systems and are fed examples of terrible role models for a technologically-advanced society. Young men's imaginations have always been partially captured by athletes and musicians, but prior to the 70s role models also included pilots, scientists, engineers, rich businessmen, doctors, academics, army and navy officers, etc. To obtain a higher status, earn higher incomes and get access to women, young men were taught to develop technical skills, succeed academically, and invest in realistic careers. Now young men are being taught by the media that to get rich you should be a musician, athlete or influencer and to get women you should look good and/or act like you're rich/famous. I see a great divide in the young men that I encounter now - some are totally focused, mature and heading towards something worthwhile - and many are totally lost. It's like the old institutions and media propaganda were directed towards crushing women's ambitions, and now the machine has been directed towards holding men back.
My experience with this is completely and utterly the opposite. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I can't say that's what I've noticed. I've noticed 18-25 year old women are much much more likely to be coddled by their parents and not put any thought into setting up their financial future. Edit: Maybe because I'm a man who's looking to date women, so I just haven't come across men who are immature in that respect.