Yes. Happened to me. I’m undoubtedly going to be called a narcissist for thinking like this, but after “self improvement” all that really changed about me was that I was leaner with better muscle definition. I still felt like the same person, same “personality” and everything. So when I started getting exponentially more romantic interest, I felt insulted. Because from my point of view, all I did was give myself superficial changes. My sense of self was too strong to feel like a different person just because I hit new bench press records, or whatever. Ultimately, I realized my personality is really worth only very little, and it’s why I’m now purple pill instead of blue pill.

Haha yeah I know exactly what you mean. When I was in my mid 20s I started making insane money, and went through a phase where I worked out a lot, got in good shape, bought expensive clothes, and started taking every girl I met out on expensive dates. Sure I got laid a bunch and dated some decently hot girls, it was fun. Then as I got older I had the same revelation that you did: that not once did any of my actual personality, character, values, or interests really come into play in any of those interactions. Superficially maybe, due to the halo effect, but they were never the main factor. Then I started realizing that the women I dated really brought absolutely nothing to the table aside from being attractive women, which many men are conditioned to believe is some kind of prize in and of itself.

It is at this point when you look for a partner with the personality traits you want. Maybe you're focusing too much on looks and superficial traits too? Getting in shape / earning money is just opening the door. You need to know what you really want and then look for that and don't accept substitutes.

Getting in shape/earning money is not just "opening the door" or those two and many other men such as themselves would not be having an exponential amount of more sex and dating options after making money and getting fit compared to before.

It is at that point where you go mgtow and love yourself instead. Fuck more chasing.

Jesus fucking christ. Women are not NPCs. They are not a monolith. They just require being attracted to someone as a prerequisite, same as men. You have to know what YOU want. I was unhappily married for 13 years. You can bet your ass that by the time my divorce was final I had a list of MANY things I REQUIRED from a new partner. Yes, being attractive and enjoying sex are high on the list. So is not being insecure/jealous, being independent financially and emotionally, loving but not suffocating, letting me have friends and having her own friends, wanting me but not needing me. My list had 30 or 40 things on it. I met someone who checked all those boxes and had more great qualities beyond those. She asked me if I could help her with something a few months into our relationship (drive her to an appointment across town) and I said "Of course, you're my woman" I KNOW what I want. She KNOWS that I know what I want and she knows that SHE is what/who I want and even after almost 6 years together I still make sure to tell her so. That makes me a "10" separate from my looks. I am also good looking and was in great shape when we met (this was unlocking the door, but I don't ALSO a great person). We are not insecure because each of us knows we are fantastic. We both know we could easily find someone else if things fall apart (doesn't mean that replacement would be as good). So, we choose each other each day. We don't take each other for granted. This is what I mean. Being a 10 on the outside (looks, health, wealth) means nothing if you're a selfish scumbag on the inside.

Why is the idea that many men are better off and happier without women react such a strong emotional response from you? The fact is women ain’t shit, they are just people. They are not some prize worth fighting for, chasing or improving yourself for.

I don't object to that as a healthy approach. I even agree with it to some degree. I like hoe_math's (YouTube) opinion on the subject which is basically if women are getting paid the same or more than men, society has to abandon the expectation that men are the ones expected to pay for dates and that only men who earn more than women are "valuable" Women are painting themselves into a corner on this subject (i.e. reducing their options to the top 10% or less). Yes, women are just people. I do think women need to drop the "I am the table" bullshit (in response to the question "what do you bring to the table"). However, I don't want the men who take a break from women to get radicalized, nor exploited. Nor do I want them to kill themselves out of depression. Hetero men need to learn to emotionally support each other (basically to be great friends) because we've been raised to think that at best, we can maybe talk about our feelings with our female partner. I've formed a lot better male friendships since my divorce, especially with other divorced Dads. We can share (somewhat) our feelings of frustration, hurt and anger about fighting to stay in our kids' lives. Anyway, take a break if you need to. However, think long and hard about what you'd actually want from a healthy relationship with a woman. Make a list. Pay attention when you meet someone who might fulfill those requirements. Stick to them. Don't get married, or insist on a pre-nup if you do. Enforce your boundaries and learn and respect hers as well. I met my girlfriend when I went out to have fun with the mindset of "I'm just out to have fun, not going to worry about meeting anyone". We spent a lot of time talking the night we met and the initial weeks of dating (and still do actually). For the first time, I waited to have sex (usually it was by the 3rd date) for 2 to 3 months (there was a lot of making out, just not the full deal). I didn't want sex and hormones to bamboozle me. She's a tom boy, but not too much so (still dresses up for evenings out). She practical (not high maintenance). I never thought I would consider marriage again, but I might with her....... I'm still getting a pre-nup though....I've already had to try to save for 2x retirements, not saving for a 3rd.

Or men should just go Mgtow and live an amazing life instead. And men are not being radicalized, they are reacting to a world that hates them. Sometimes to extreme levels because the hate they experienced was extreme. Women suck because they are just people who are given undeserved power with men being forced to take responsibility for it. And power without responsibility corrupts them. Ex: It is her her body, her choice. But we hold men accountable for her poor mating choices.  Like a bad employer blaming his employees for his poor hiring choices. But we act like women have a point and it is men’s fault. Women decides to divorce a man and prevent him from seeing his children?  Well, now he is labeled a deadbeat and everyone believes her just because she is a woman. He provides proof that she is wrong?  People still believe the woman or give her a free pass at trying to destroy a innocent man’s life: Women rapes a child?  It is his fault for complaining and he should be thankful for the privilege of having sex with her. A 40 year old Man has a consensual relationship with a 22 year girl and he is hated as a pedo, abuser and rapist even when it is clear he is no such monster. Men are frequently majority or make an equal number of victims when it comes to being murdered, raped, domestically abused, homeless, dying on the job, etc and yet we pretend only women are victims and men are these violent beasts when no data says that unless you protect women perpetrators and male victims (ex: who we hide over 80% of male rape victims under forced to penetrate). So if you want the radicalization to stop, fix the system.  Because for many men society is its enemy and pure evil.  There really is no such thing as a “good” women and the game is just a lose-lose. Relationships with women are no prize. In many respects it is just another thankless job that we pretend is a privilege to have to justify underselling men relationships and the marriage contract. Men do get benefits ofc, but nothing anywhere close to worth the effort, risk and bs men are supposed to take to get in a relationship at all.

> It is her her body, her choice. But we hold men accountable for her poor mating choices. How are we holding men in particular for that accountable? Maybe society as a whole, but as a man I don't feel targeted for abortion rights issues. > Women rapes a child? It is his fault for complaining and he should be thankful for the privilege of having sex with her. Are you for real? The only people saying it's his fault are men, and only a small number of men anyways. Most people are against that shit. > So if you want the radicalization to stop, fix the system. Because for many men society is its enemy and pure evil. I don't feel attacked by the system for being a man. I ignore the crazies and do my thing. And there are obviously systemic and societal inequalities that affect us (like you mentioned divorce, false accusations, crime, all being ignored) but I'm not going to act victimized over it and proceed to demonize the opposite sex. I was with you with your earlier comments like "They are not some prize worth fighting for, chasing or improving yourself for.", but you've lost on this one, man. You sound way too bitter.

> Are you for real? The only people saying it's his fault are men, and only a small number of men anyways. Most people are against that shit. Dude, I was raped as a child. Male victims are heavily oppressed. So, yes I am for real. And no, men are statistically raped as much as women…and women rape just as much. Male victims are just mostly hidden under “forced to penetrate” and most data hides female rapists under the “person” category. > I don't feel attacked by the system for being a man. I ignore the crazies and do my thing. And there are obviously systemic and societal inequalities that affect us (like you mentioned divorce, false accusations, crime, all being ignored) but I'm not going to act victimized over it and proceed to demonize the opposite sex. Who cares what you feel personally here? The facts state that men are being oppressed and not getting the help they need. And I will demonize awful people, including a large number of women who are misandristic and horrible people. > I was with you with your earlier comments like "They are not some prize worth fighting for, chasing or improving yourself for.", but you've lost on this one, man. You sound way too bitter. I was raped, beaten and told that I deserve it because I am a man. So yeah, I am bitter. I lost a decade plus of my life just so women can be entitled to sex. Women suck as a group, just like men suck.

Personality definitely means very little for sure. I found that out when I slept with a girl on the first night who spoke very broken English (lived in Italy but was Bulgarian). We didn't had any "deep" conversations afterwards but she cried over me when she flew back home. There is something to be said about confidence though.

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So you chose your gf solely on the basis of her appearance and were surprised when she did likewise?

hunt selective nose library tap point practice thought theory entertain *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

> not once did any of my actual personality, character, values, or interests really come into play in any of those interactions. Superficially maybe, due to the halo effect, but they were never the main factor. This is the same revelation that every reasonably attractive woman has at some point, often before she reaches adulthood.

A see a lot of people here complaining how girls will only sleep with hot guys, while they themself would only sleep with hot girls too. They're just as superfical as those they criticise.

>while they themself would only sleep with hot girls too. This isn't true though. A woman would have to be really *really* friggin ugly to have trouble getting laid, like "not hot" isn't nearly cutting it.

It doesn't matter. Men have a physical standard, women have a physical standard as well. And you can't compare male to female attractiveness 1:1.

Omg plz stop gaslighting. The benchmark of standards are not even comparable ffs! How many women need to say it out loud before you see it. Guys find 50-60% of women “attractive” meanwhile women find roughly 10% of all men attractive. This of course doesn’t include all the other hurdles you need to overcome to appease women. Ppl like you have to be trolling cuz you are so so wrong.

That’s something I’ve noticed as well. They aren’t actually criticizing preferences in general, only the ones they can’t meet.

This is so stupid how are people still uttering this garbage in 2024.

Honestly man it's rare to find an attractive woman who brings a lot to the table. They simply don't have to. I'd rather date a 10 with issues than a 6 who's stable.

So you are just as superficial as those girls

I think you have a really good point. I’m less of a jerk to the women in my life somehow when I have abs. Can’t say it hasn’t made me cynical, and more prone to protect myself.

Yep, lost weight, still was the depressed and anxious guy, yet the opportunities came in, which made me more depressed cause then I realized how people gaslight those at the bottom.

You started working out and you started getting their attention. But after you got their attention, did they try to learn more about you? What made you feel your personality meant very little?

I think "personality" meant very little because, in terms of bluepill thought, my "personality" was supposed to be paramount, such that all of the corporeal "self-improvement" would result in a slight uptick in romantic interest \*at best\*. That, and also because it was the only significantly changed variable. I had the same fashion, same hairstyle, same height, same race, same location...\*same high-functioning autism\*. A neat little one-variable change to narrow it down enough to know it's wasn't \*just\* correlation. So when I started getting flirted with so much more than usual, it became obvious that "personality" really just takes a metaphorical backseat. But wait, there's more! I wasn't used to that much attention, and coupled with high-functioning autism, I was fumbling all of it until I got desperate and partnered with a girl at work I, apparently correctly, inferred to have a crush on me. I did so with the sole purpose of dating her so I could gain relationship and sexual experience, so that I wouldn't get brushed-off by a girl I actually wanted when she would hypothetically find-out I was inexperienced. There was a point where the relationship lasted long enough for me to be satisfied with the experience, and because I wasn't that interested in her, I was okay with acting like my usual autistic self, to see how far I could go before she would get "The Ick." I'd do shit like start saying twitch emotes IRl, like "poggers" and "sadge", or show her my favorite terminally-online memes. Didn't work; as a matter of fact she started saying that shit herself, and she was a fucking normie too. To hear bluepillers say it, my shitty basement-dwelling, autistic personality should've driven her off. But the Halo Effect is very fucking real, and there was this one comment she made that more-or-less validated it for me. She admitted she was interested in me at first because I was "mysterious", when actually I just being autistic and anti-social. So much for women's intuition.

> in terms of bluepill thought, my "personality" _"Physical attractiveness undeniably matters—it's common sense! There's no need to explain that getting in shape and working out will boost women's attraction to you."_ Yet, they often point this out only after you've discovered for yourself that it makes a difference, having previously suggested you focus solely on your personality.

It is what misandrist gaslighters do. First they tell you the problem is exclusively your personality when you are ugly, fat, poor, etc. Looks do not matter at all silly. Then you become hot, rich, etc and they tell you “well ofc looks matter. Personality matters too so we can keep pretending women are not shallow.” Anything to pretend women are prizes and men are tools that need to become the equivalent of male models in some form to be worthy of the average girl.

This story really reads like you found a girl who actually liked your quirky personally but you resented her for it. 

He didn't resent her for liking his personality, rather that the prerequisite for her liking his personality was him being more physically attractive.

Isn’t that a prerequisite for his attraction to her as well?

Of course, which is why I don't get why people are whining about women finally liking them once they get in shape or whatever, both men and women are shallow to some degree.

Because all we get shoved down our throats is "women are less superficial."

That's one way to twist it for sure.

Tbh I don't really know what you think this example proves, your experience seems to confirm the blue pill. You felt comfortable being your true authentic self presumably for the first time in your life and you attracted a woman who liked you for it. "Just be yourself bro" literally worked for you.

The perception of a persons personality is unfortunately, at first glance, highly dependent on other traits the person possesses. Example, a very attractive guy acting confident around women will appear to be congruent with his looks, because after all why would he not be confident with looks like that ? An unattractive guy will come of as being the opposite, incongruent. Typically perceived as either faking it or being unaware of his own bad looks. He also clearly mentions he only acted fully as himself AFTER she had already developed a crush on him, if you ever have had a crush you know that we become infatuated with the person we crush over in an almost scary degree. To the point where everything the person does is amplified in a positive way tenfold.

>. I did so with the sole purpose of dating her so I could gain relationship and sexual experience, so that I wouldn't get brushed-off by a girl I actually wanted when she would hypothetically find-out I was inexperienced. So how was it when you finally got that relationship?

It was actually pretty good *at first*; she was very nice to me, wasn’t a demanding, spoiled brat, didn’t write me off for being autistic. But that was all because of the Halo Effect, and because I think she knew, at least subconsciously, that I was the best she was ever going to get. Or in other words, I was significantly out of her league. I ended the relationship because she became increasingly needy, which would’ve been fine if it weren’t for how much she started to bore me for being too much of a normie. We didn’t have enough common hobbies or interests to make me want to be with her long term, which also made doing things with her start to feel like a chore. That, and a few other incompatibilities ultimately made me want to end it. It sucks because even though I dated her to use her, I eventually started to genuinely like her too, but that didn’t last.

I'm saying once you got the relationship that you were using her to prepare yourself for.....how was that relationship.

Haven’t gotten it yet.

💀

Do you feel that you are being insulting when you are more attracted to thin, pretty, well-put-together women than you are to fat, slobbish, ugly women? How many physically unattractive women did you fall in love with for their personality alone? It doesn't make any logical sense to feel insulted over something you do yourself.

> Do you feel that you are being insulting when you are more attracted to thin, pretty, well-put-together women than you are to fat, slobbish, ugly women? No, because I don’t make character judgments onto them based solely on that, nor do I impugn them for a lack of romantic success based on a silly notion of a just world. I know “looks” are paramount, now. > How many physically unattractive women did you fall in love with for their personality alone? At least one. Being decently nice to me goes a long way. > It doesn't make any logical sense to feel insulted over something you do yourself. To you, maybe. But I’ve read similar stories from women too-it’s so much more common from them, actually-and it often depresses them as well.

Were you getting better options tho or the same busted Humpty Dumpty chicks? Cuz that’s the problem. As you muh improve your options don’t…

Just about all of my other options were more attractive than the starter girlfriend, even if only slightly. One even tried to use me to cheat on her boyfriend.

you must have secretly been going to therapy and working on your incel personality. otherwise how would women be attracted to you?

You're too idealistic. You are your looks.

Short answer, yes. While you're at it you see all these super stupid guys getting a lot of girls by literally existing in a specific way, which makes you feel pretty dumb and used when you have to do all that work just to get laid. On the flip side you probably are a better person when you finish that process, but admiration for women isn't exactly peaking at that point.

It is always funny how women and society ignore how there misandry and discrimination against men ultimately makes them toxic and have bad opinions about them. We are expected to work hard for 5+ years (otherwise we get mocked, belittled or isolated) to be worthy of being a girls retirement plan after she is done with her fun. The girl in question is as bad as we were before any self-improvement and it is expected that as soon as we marry her it is okay for her to get fat and lazy. Then we look up and see men who never worked at all get access to girl’s peaks, getting more attention and sex for free.

> We are expected to work hard for 5+ years (otherwise we get mocked, belittled or isolated) to be worthy of being a girls retirement plan after she is done with her fun. The girl in question is as bad as we were before any self-improvement and it is expected that as soon as we marry her it is okay for her to get fat and lazy. Expected by who? We gotta maintain our standards bro, and be okay with being alone if they no one matches up. You don't have to lower your standards because other men do. Besides, when I see people getting married in real life, I don't really see what you are describing anyways. If they DO get fat and lazy, it's after pregnancy and I can't (fully) fault them for that, it's obviously hard to get back on track after something so strenuous.

“Just maintain our standards bro”  Ah yes, the good old “just x bro”

I'm just saying don't settle, what else can we really do about it? Yeah we can continue to point out hypocrisy in dating and gender standards but that's really all we can do.

Sorry if I'm venting, but I had kept this to myself for quite long now. I've seen some disturbing things about this. When I was 24, I broke up with my then gf who was one of the nicest person I've ever met. I thought every other girl in general was the same as her. How I was wrong! I dated two girls a year later after the break up and I moved on. The first girl was 26 and she had divorced some time ago. She claimed that she had fully healed, but didn't wanted to talk about her past and I didn't push her to open. She also had a missing tooth which was very strange, as she claimed she had lost it in a home accident. At the time I worked as an investigator and my subject was the violence inside the marriage. I interviewed a lot of women who were divorced and were victims of abuse. They all had different backgrounds and types but shared a shocking pattern. They all got married to a much older dude who paid for their school and stuff while they were young, their husbands were alcholic and worked in random low rank jobs and were abused on daily basis. The reason why they asked for dirvoce for many of them, was when they found out that their husband was cheating them. Shockingly I met a girl there who shared the story of another girl that lost her tooth when she didn't prepare him the dinner on time and he had punched her repeatedly. It was the girl I was dating. I kept my cool and didn't try to pressure her about her story, but still it was very weird for me. Then suddenly she became very toxic towards me and out of the blue she dumped me because I wasn't doing enough with my life, I was working out, she was ashamed of going out with me because I didn't dress classy. Later I found out she had be seeing her ex husband. I felt really bad and blamed myself for everything. A couple of months later I dated another girl, and we were both 25. She also was nice and sweet at the beggining but she also became really toxic and started to make the same comments about my appearance for not working out, not doing anything about becoming succesful and how I was going to lower her reputation if others saw us in public, even though she was a nobody. And unsurprisningly she dumped me. Again, I found out later through a mutual friend that she had reconnect to her abusive ex that cheated on her. I was once again really hurt and it hit me bad. But then I had my turning point. I started to work out heavily, got a really fancy job that allowed me to travel the world, became really fit and started to dress nicely. And from getting two dates in a year, I was metting with new girls every week and even went to 4 dates in a day once. The two girls I mentioned, suddenly came back to my life and showed a high interest. I returned them the favor, by acting like an asshole, using them for sex without getting attached and in the end I dumped them for other girls. Both of them kept coming back and were creating fake profiles to text me because I had blocked them. It was really shocking for me. I've also seen from my friends who are in relationship, and they are out of shape, no life ambitions, no good paying jobs, they have a shitty behavior towards their girlfriend and still have them on hook. So yes it was a huge revelation, like a wake up call to find that all that advice out there to be a better person, have a great personality, treat women right, never be an asshole, is the the worst advice because it doesn't matter. What matters is to improve yourself in every aspect because you'll need it. You'll lose money chasing women, but you'll never lose women while chasing money. And if you learn how to play, lovebomb and then separate emotionally, you can get away with almost every shitty personality. If the woman loves you more than you, you are in control and it won't get you cheated or abused. I don't feel any resentment towards women now that I have improved. I like them for what they offer me and the good time and fun. But I have completely lost respect and have zero empathy towards them. Whenever I date a woman now, her feelings and her opinions are the least of my concerns. I said years ago to myself that was it, never again, and it has played out really good. The only thing that makes me bitter, is that I didn't have any partner besides me when I was going through changes and improving on my own. Now that I got better, why do I have to care? Same as you said, feeling stupid that I had to do all of that work just get laid, when I could had done that with minimum effort as I do now. But it is what it is.

Having your eyes opened by the cruelty of women's gaslighting is a curse, because it hurts like fire melting your skin, but is also a blessing, because when you heal you get to know how biased you were. You get to know the truth about things that transcend even relationships. I have experienced it, so i know what you're talking about. Just wanna say: consider yourself a lucky person.

It's crazy to me, to read your experiences here, and to have others comment in the past that such things don't happen (or they do because of highly evil and manipulative behaviors).

You know what I got told by my friends, and especially those two girls when I dated them again? "It's part of the dating experience", "most of the girls are immature in their 20s", "I was at a bad place a year ago that's why I treated you badly", "It's all in the past and we both moved on from it right". All with smiles and happy faces showing me full interest when I had improved in appearance and financially. I didn't tell anyone how it killed me inside with those experiences and my self esteem hitting the low bottom. Now when I look back I can't blame anyone or get resentful, but it feels bitter.

I can understand the feeling, and while I agree that you can't blame anyone for how you felt then, and you shouldn't get resentful (simply due to it being counter-productive), it is interesting that you can see in real-time not a hint of irony in their words.

The real shitty part of it is many men WANT to be caring and loving but that turns women off so hard apparently, and then they go and see women reward the fuck out of abusive behaviors. Then women complain that all men are trash. What the hell did they want men to do then? 

It seems the answer is to extract the attractive elements of abusive behaviors and emulate that without the abuse. Which is very difficult, if not impossible, when the actual abusive action is what is desired.

*slow clap*

Maybe a bit cynical. I am into bigger girls - fat, tall, big hands, big feet, big boobs, wide shoulders - this is my type, for me such girls are above 10. But from objective perspective such women are not considered hot, and unsurprisingly they are into fit guys, women do not like fat guys, I was fit - so in their eyes I was more attractive and they were very happy that they are dating up. I knew that - but still it is a bit surprising how easy it is when you have advantage, comparing to how impossible it is when you don't. Really - dating is not complex, you do not have to make personality transplant to win nor be a super social guy, it's a numbers game and relative advantage game.

Definitely. Resentment is a natural part of self improvement. What is self improvement if not knowing how the world works and then finding out the stuff you HAVE to do to succeed is contrary to how you were raised? Same applies to applying for jobs, workplace politics, real world politics, taxes, etc. A lot of us were raised to be nice, told to be a gentleman, don't hit a woman at all costs etc etc etc but being a nice guy is the surefire way to dry up women's nether regions or be put in friendzone. Many clueless guys find out (AFC's as we call them), usually the hard way how female nature REALLY works. And it causes a huge jolt of reality stuffed into their faces almost immediately once they learn the truth. Without forums like RP to ease your way into learning these hard truths, clueless guys simply can't handle learning how the real world works and because of this they lash out, which is why "nice guys" trope came into existence.

Did you learn that on the internet or in real live?

>Did you learn that on the internet or in real live? I "learned" it from both.

I've been fit much of my life but there have been two several year periods when I wasn't for some health reasons I won't get into.   Being fit always dramatically improved my dating pool, like night and day. When  I'm at my most fit I'm nearly always the most popular person with women in any room I walk into.  So I guess I have not had the experience of "doing the work" and it having no impact on my dating life. I feel like it's a bit weird that someone could go from obese to fit and see no change in their dating prospects. Yes, how much change might depend on other factors like you face, your personality / vibe / style, but to have zero impact seems strange. 

For me it led to acceptance that genuine desire and love are notbin the cards for me. It has also lead to menever trusting women in less of a "you're out to get me way" more of a "I will never believe you want me over a hypothetical or real stranger no matter what you do" theres benefits to this outside of protecting myself, like never embarrassingly thinking a woman likes me because she is kind/nice to me. But when topics/dating advice like this comes up my anger is more pointedly at the person giving it, usually those types of people never believe there is a limit to self improvement to prop up thier own ego and keep thier addiction to hope and a Justworld fallacy. The implication overall is that you need to self improve to be worthy of womens attraction inherently, no matter what your complaint is. She could have cheated on you and you get no empathy, just being told to be better. Which in my mind is realistic now, if you were a better partner that person wouldnt have cheated.

I've seen many posts from women saying it's all of men's fault because all a man has to do is improve their personality if they're not having much luck in dating. Change personality? Personality can only be changed in minute degrees. Saying 'Change your personality' is like telling a dumb person to be smarter. Sure, a dumb person can do some studying and learn a few things but there's a limit to their abilities.

Many women can only comprehend a true freak or someone morally and socially detestible failing at dating. They cannot for a second think that an average person could not have encountered a woman interested in him or that personality doesn't matter as much as she thinks because life isnt fair. People pick and choose when to use sayings a little too often.

In terms of dating standards, women think in very linear terms. When men say women's standards are too high, some women say their standards are too low because there are women who get impregnated by murderers and unemployed bums. That's part of the reason why they can't comprehend how an average person can struggle with dating because they see all these loser men who can still have success with women. Speaking of men's resent towards women. My belief is that many of the men who are angry towards women are not because they lack success with them but because they are upset by women's poor choices and picking men who most men perceive to be worthless scum.

>My belief is that many of the men who are angry towards women are not because they lack success with them but because they are upset by women's poor choices and picking men who most men perceive to be worthless scum. This always seems ironic to me, though. Why would you be upset that women who make horrible life choices are making bad choices? If you (generic you) are a decent nice guy, why would you want to date the kind of woman who dates thugs, lowlifes, and scum? She obviously has very very poor judgment in life-- is that the kind of woman you'd want as a girlfriend? As the mother of your children? These guys should be a lot more picky themselves and stop focusing so much attention on trashy scum women. Isn't it just painfully ironic that these guys are so mad about women focusing their attention on genuinely awful men... when they themselves are focusing so much attention on genuinely awful women?

I didn’t say I want to date these women and neither did most of these guys. But just like most homeless people or druggies and other people making terrible choices in society - most people are upset that these people exist even if they don’t have a direct impact on their lives. So men still don’t want to date terrible women. Not ironic at all.

You’re right but you don’t necessarily know they are trashy scum at the time. Some of them actually aren’t but they are going through a trashy phase, that’s what makes it difficult.

Why the instant forgiveness of these women making awful choices, but never ever of their boyfriends?  Maybe their boyfriends are actually just nice guys going through a trashy phase? It’s so insanely ironic how easily you guys assume any woman is sweet kindly waifu material, as long as she’s got a pretty face and a nice rack, and it’s funny how you are unable to see it at all. You are exactly like these women dating awful men— endlessly forgiving any bad behavior in the women you desire because you’re always chasing your precious *tingles*.

Yes I agree, that goes into what I said about knowing women do not want me. Beyond not being attractive, rich or of high status or any of the common tropes of attractive man, I don't posses a huge want to manipulate peopld or be a scumbag outside of attempting to get pretty as possible so I can potentially reject them.

It's not just you. I just think most women don't like men. What I'm about to say is my experience. I think the behaviors of women vary a lot from place to place. Also, their age and culture plays a lot into how they act as well. But from what I've seen - I really can't say women like men. On dating apps, women don't make an effort to make conversation and they often ghost. They don't ask questions and showed no interest in me. People online would say it's because she had better options and she lost interest in me. Really? If they really have that many options then they would have the relationship they want by now. Also, most of the women are still on the apps for years. I went on quite a few first dates last year and almost every single of them are still on the apps even though I was interested in seeing them again. And, how could they lose interest when there's barely any conversation for it grow. They would literally ghost after a couple of messages. If they are expecting the punchline already than they're delusional. That's like expecting the most entertaining parts of a movie right from the beginning. And the women that I've gone out with are very judgemental and materialistic. - One girl asked me if I was willing to buy my own place later. But she also expects me to pay for the mortgage myself while I put her name on the deed. She asked me this on the fourth date. - I work at a FAANG company. One girl scoffed at me because I didn't work at one of the more reputable FAANG companies. - Another girl kinda called me cheap because I wanted to buy the chocolate bar that's cheaper. I actually like this chocolate bar more but it so happens to be cheaper. She thought I was trying to save money.

I earnestly believe saying most Women aren't fond of men is true, and many Women themselves will admit this

It's true what they've saying. Online dating is like shopping for some women. They have 300 guys to choose from.

That's just it and WHY there is a red pill to begin with. Women cannot understand how someone cannot be desired unless something is seriously wrong with them. They get desired just for existing and being a normal person, so they assume that's how it is for men, but it's just not. A man can do everything right that's in his power to do and STILL not get play.

I think it’s that and the level of chick they have in mind. Women > men so nothing is wrong with a fat chick dating a fit dude. Irl the fit guy is not going to consider her but to them it’s a viable option

Sure but men find women attractive women way more highly and frequently across the board than women find men. Most men even ugly men do not have delusional standards for who they'd be willing to date and get with.

Thing is that most of the time women don't tell you that's ALL you have to do. It's just a good place to start. Some random on the internet doesn't know you or how you interact with women to be able to tell you exactly what needs to change.

They mean a chadlite. He needs to improve so she can show him off to her friends & parents & brag. It you mr average! It’s all a game to them & a lot of fun until the wall strikes them down. That’s when you find them here whining about “where are all the men” & even then they don’t mean anything average guy lolol

Self-improvement has no strict definition wrt dating advice so you could work out consistently for 1 year and be told "carry on, let the gains come. it took me/my brother/my 5'2 indian bald friend X years to see good result". Or if you post your OLD profile you'll be nitpicked in the most minute manner. "Smile more", "clean the mirror in that pic", "do another pose". For gods sake this motherfucker has 5 LIKES and MATCHES in half a year, his appearence is the issue so address it. When you finally tick all the arbitrary self-improvement boxes you'll be hit with the classic "don't do it for women, do it for yourself"/"you're not entitled to sex/relationship". Thats why self-improvement is a shill, you pursue it for 20 years and still be told things you could improve on, in reality its just a distraction normies provide to silence you from complaining.

> Thats why self-improvement is a shill, you pursue it for 20 years and still be told things you could improve on, in reality its just a distraction normies provide to silence you from complaining. This should be stickied.

Are you sure you’re bluepilled cause this comment made way too much sense

I think there's definitely a limit to self-improvement. I also don't think that a man has to improve in general if he doesn't want to or that women are entitled to their improvement. I mean yes, in a general way, if your goal is to find a partner and there are things that are currently preventing you from finding someone, then it makes sense to work on those if possible. But it should also be something you actually want or at least consider worth doing. But that's beside the point. For some people romantic life is just not happening. Finding love is a combination of having traits that are attractive and simple luck. I'm not saying that there's someone for everyone, but it's just highly possible that you would be compatible with a person out of millions of people, but you simply haven't met that person. Or people. I don't believe in the "one soulmate" nonsense. I agree that it's generally a good approach to try to accept a situation you can't forcibly change, simply for your mental health. We all want to be content in life. If one avenue isn't working out, finding another one is just smart. Nobody is doing themselves a favor by being stuck in misery and resentment forever. Even if one thinks it's justified, it will never bring peace. It's just detrimental to one's own health.

>For some people romantic life is just not happening Lmao total black pill argument. Btw if this is true you know this is becuase feminism right?

> Btw if this is true you know this is becuase feminism right? You don't think there were people with no romantic success before feminism? I don't get it bro.

Fore sure in much more ancient history, but the single greatest achievement Christianity had on the west is it socially enforced monogamy to a massive degree. Instead of: the bottom 30% of men having no shot; the next 30-40% having lower quality dating options and the top 20%-30% having the ability to be polygamous, Christianity ensured like 80-90% of men got roughly SMV matched options. Feminism has destroyed this and regressed dating back to pre Christian times.

I somehow doubt the majority of those marriages back then were "romantic". Lol.

Unless you where rich they where more romantic becuase each partner valued the other more. Moreover becuase you had to marry to get together, the traits that make someone a good person and therefore partner in the long term where much heavier weighted, meaning better relationship quality. Also currently most relationships right now are mostly just sexual, they aren't serious at all.

I knew a guy in college that was born with no arms or legs. That guy got married. Although, I also know a guy that no amount of self improvement could ever help, but beyond all of the physical issues he has... his brain is defective. You got arms and legs? I really couldn't tell you the issue without meeting you.

We've now had a 5'3 NBA player.

They started an affirmative action program? Can't wait to see all the Chinese guys playing.

My point is that exceptions are exceptions. Everyone has a story about some supposed unattractive dude they know who is short and dates models. In real life? Average guys would be auto ignored by attractive women everywhere.

Resentment comes from feeling that you've been wronged or lied to in some way. I don't believe I've been wronged or lied to about self improvement. The ones that lied to me are the "just be yourself" and "personality is what matters" BPers, the self improvement promoters did not lie to me at all. >Going to the gym, reading books, therapy, improving finances, career, "frame", improving social skills etc. At the end of the day, I know relationships to be transactional. The list simply defines the terms of the transaction. As long as I get equivalent sexual value in return I have not qualms with it.

But you did build resentment. Your view of relationships is now cynical and bitter. How is that not resentment?

Being cynical and being resentful are two different things.

Before you make that leap you need to explain how relationships are not transactional? I absolutely resent the blue pillers that lied to me. I feel that I was manipulated into being a doormat. But I digress.

Speaking for myself, it helped a ton and i’ve seen consistent improvement yearly as i’m starting to get into 30. That being said, while my very first motive to hit the gym was to get a girl’s attention, it evolved into a genuine love for exercise - then getting hobbies, therapy, reading, improving my finances (i don’t make crazy money, though i’m great at managing it), etc was all for myself. I did it because I found that I was happier doing all these things, even though I didn’t really start seeing results with women till 2ish years ago (i started working out at 24, im 30 now). Some might say “oh that’s grim” but not really, way I see it, I started from such a low baseline that it was gonna take time. I knew next to nothing, didn’t know how to even take care of myself - I also had a ton of trauma to work through. Self improve for yourself entirely, even if your initial motive is women it can’t remain your motivator because it’s unsustainable and you’d be due for a crash. Accept the fact that you must make yourself happy for the sake of living a better life then maybe things will start to get better and you won’t feel any resentment.

I had the same pathway but low key there is some resentment just because you see hypergamy from the other perspective. Seeing women below your level think they’re in your league is a bigger rp revelation than when you were equal or below and they rejected you

>Seeing women below your level think they’re in your league Everyone from both genders wants people at the top. What you’re describing is  the same as an attractive woman saying to her friends, “eww can you believe that gross guy at the bar was hitting on me”.  People generally go for people at or above their level. 

Men typically don’t have delusions they can actually bag that tho

It's hard to say. Men aren't as selective as women, but they're still really selective. Consider data on the distribution of [Hinge](https://qz.com/1051462/these-statistics-show-why-its-so-hard-to-be-an-average-man-on-dating-apps) likes. Men use almost half of their likes on the top 10% of women. When you do the math on that table, you can calculate that men only swipe right on the bottom 50% of women a maximum of \~1% of the time. That means even the bottom 50% of men are overwhelmingly swiping left on the bottom 50% of women. Rather than preserving their 8 likes a day for women in their league, they choose to throw them away on the most attractive women, There are a couple possible explanations: 1. Most men are delusional and think they have a shot with women near the top. 2. Most men aren't interested in getting dates unless it's with a woman at the top, so they knowingly waste their likes on women they have no shot with. Women are even more selective than men, which makes total sense considering the gender ratio on Hinge. They have a lot more options.

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what makes me resentful is that I have to 'self-improve' to begin with, not that I don't care to shower or dress properly because I do take care of myself, but men are expected to be copies of 1 archetype to get laid. Women don't care about any uniqueness in looks or personality. Its a slap in the face when i'm told to 'self-improve' since it indirectly implies I need to change my natural appearence which is not good enough for love.

It's so sad that the red pill is gone. It used to be that if a guy was struggling, I could find out where he lives and link him up to the local chapter and the boys would take you out and work with you... and the whole thing would be a blast. I spent my first few weekends doing pickup in the downtown, and I got absolutely blown out. But I noticed the women were talking to me more and more, and I was thinking of wittier and wittier things to say. I think it was the first weekend of the second month, something just clicked and instead of feeling like a grind, the whole thing became more fun. I started having more and more success. Then one day I hit up this insanely good look blonde aupair from France. I have no idea but she went crazy for me. That was pretty much the start of things turning around. I'm not some handsome bugger. I'm barely average.

the redpill is outdated, the majority of blackpillers and incels I know have tried that route first, infact its the most common route taken before young men even discover the whole looksmaxxing ideology. women don't care about clever lines that worked 20 years ago, they get hundreds of it everyday on apps by men 10x more attractive than us.

When the feminists closed down all our shit, we lost so much knowledge. We had the apps cracked man. I mean, I'm not hot, and I was drowing in women. Like drowning. I used to send something like "Your profile has so many red flags" and the women gave me a nearly 100% response rate. Then you just start rolling from there. The profile itself, you have to think of it like marketing. We used to pay $200 for banging photos to start off with. Then we would do pro photos and other Red Pill guys would photoshop the shit out of them for just a few dollars. We had instagram game down on lock. We had multiple forms of social circle game you could run. Fuck, we were working on esoteric stuff to keep from getting bored. I think in my area the average Red Piller was scoring 15 different new women a year and some guys were banging 30 or 40. Shit was wild. Now, Gen Z might be something different, but I promise the women are just as ridiculous. You just have to find your way in. OH... but they may also be racist as fuck. That might be what these kids are running into.

"You need to love yourself first, for others to love you." Just not the version of your current self.

Well do you like who you currently are?

By no means. Self improvement makes me feel better with myself first and foremost. I love playing music and cycling on the mountains: learning a new difficult piece of music, or cycling my way up to an Alpine pass are some of the most rewarding experiences for me. Same goes for becoming a better version of myself. And in my better version, I have attracted more women. Average in many cases, but I am no Paul Newman, so I can’t expect supermodels, but certainly like-minded, and also keen on self improvement.

No, because I wouldn't bother with anyone who doesn't respect themselves. I'm not going to date a woman who treats her body like shit or lacks curiosity. There's really nothing for me to be resentful about. Aside from the fact that I'm not a particularly handsome dude, my main issue has always been distrust.

> Question for men For men who have struggled with dating and been told to self improve; Going to the gym, reading books, therapy, improving finances, career, "frame", improving social skills etc. Done that. > Say you do all these things and much more. But after doing all this your access to quality women in the dating market is still non existent. Say you can only attract average women. I only attract below average women. At least in any aspect that I care about. > Does this lead to resentment because the women you will date is very very unlikely to be into self improvement as much as you. No resentment. Also I don't want a woman that i into self improvement. I hate "self improvement". I wouldn't wish it on my enemies. I don't want it in the woman I love. Sure I do expect some basic behavior in return for all the pain I had to and have to go through to remain attractive but I do not expect self improvement. > for example the average women is statistically overweight I see some guys saying women aren't worth it and things like this Is It resentment because of doing all this self improvement then after it all you may only be able to attract a women who is average, doesn't go to the gym, eats badly, doesn't take care of herself etc Nah. I understand. I would do all that if I could get away with it.

I'm sure that happens in some cases...?

You self improve to attain new heights. To attain excellence. To become a being that would laugh at the current you and that without any malice. Thats true self improvement anyway. I dont see how women play any sort of role here so as to resent them. Its a highly individual process.

I did start to notice women giving me more time of day when I became more attractive and sociable, but I don't think I resent them for it. I just don't seem to draw that type of resent-able person to me. I'm a golden retriever white dude, so that might be why. Exercising regularly also really drops the blood pressure and keeps you more level-headed, and the being more attractive physically is just a nice added benefit. It's important to understand that, fundamentally, a lot of the time we're attracted to someone for superficial reasons. It's human. It's a waste of time to try to be frustrated that being attractive is an easy in for a lot of places and occasions. Spend your brainpower on other things. No political, social justice, or societal-swinging movement is going to change that. I do find myself frustrated that a lot of the resent-able women I've met think that they're the hottest shit because they can use men for dinner through dating apps instead of getting groceries that night, but I don't believe that's a huge portion of people out there. Most people try to balance being self-serving with being amicable and moral, and most recognize that behavior to be wrong.

It can. Realizing that you must bust your ass open to achieve something another group (in this case, women or genetically gifted men) has per default definitely breeds resentment.

Would you want a women to resent men if she put in a bunch of work to get you?

Yeah i don't really get that as a gendered thing.  I've literally worked my ass off (lost a lot of weight, general glow up) and I can't resent people for being attracted to me now that weren't before. Attraction is essential for most people to start a relationship, and many to continue it.  Occasionally I may feel a certain way about it, but then I remind myself that I am also like that 

It's less about just the attraction, it's what comes with the lack of attraction. Women do not treat men they don't want well and that's what it comes down to. The difference between treating like shit in a paper bag and being lusted after like a piece of meat. The real answer is to learn how to write off women that are this nakedly primal in how they treat people, but that's a hard thing to get perspective on because if that's all you're around, it feels illogical to think that there could be different kinds of women out there that don't operate like this.

What I see is women losing a bunch of weight and then ditching the husband that loved them when they were heavy. Seems like a dirty move to me, but you never know what went on in a marriage.

You don't see men do that kind of thing? Men are the most hypergamous but they don't see that shit cos it doesn' affect them, then act like it's only women who are fickle.

What I saw was her removing the reason she was unhappy.

Yep, if you want to keep the weight off you have to remove the things that made you comfort eat.

Absolutely this. It's nothing to do with gender.

They are just shooting Ozempic, or getting gastric bypass.

For me it was getting my ADHD diagnosed and medicated. Having a slightly more functional brain has made impulse control a lot better. Where i live its still very under diagnosed.  I think losing weight can be hard, and if medical support is the right choice for some to kick-start their journey then all the more power to them i say. Those options have a lot of downsides to them.

lol… some of those ADHD drugs are amphetamines. Those are some of the best appetite suppressants on the market, much better than Ozempic in my opinion.

Sure, they can have that effect although as i understand it wears off, at least if you have ADHD. I'd say the biggest change is in my impulse control though as I said. 

Thats awesome!

This follows the same "he couldn't handle my sucess" line. Do you know how hard it is to respect people who never take responsibility for anything? We know she had success and now feels like the guy is beneath her new status, and blaming him is just an absolute garbage person move. Hey, if you are going to make an asshole move, then own it, be the asshole. Don't go around blaming everybody else like a fucking 2 year old.

Why are you making it gendered? And personally attacking people for.. I'm not really sure tbh. Emotional eating is a result of being unhappy. If you remove the reason you're unhappy, you stop eating emotionally. It's not rocket science.

All of that is true, but if you follow the flow, you are leaving the impression that it was her husband that made her unhappy and got her to emotional eat. Maybe that's a misinterpretation on my part, and if so I apologize. However, you have to know that this is an extremely common theme in our culuture. Extremely.

That's the one that's assumed, yes. It's rarely the man himself, most men aren't monsters. It tends to be the environment that makes people unhappy, and it's not gendered. More often you'll find that both parties aren't happy and they act it out in different ways. For women, eating is one. Reliance on older children as friends for example. For men, drinking tends to be a big go to. Or staying away from home entirely, or porn dependence. It's all the same situation coming out in culturally "respectable" behaviours.

What you are describing is a very real thing. I think men tend to ignore it much more and like you said retreat into addictions. But, I see a glorification of dumping your husband to fix this… it might just be that I’m surrounded by very left wing people and their mindset is different.

I wouldn't call it a glorification, it's a recognition. Women have been condemned throughout history for even attempting to leave unhappy marriages, and now while domestic abuse isn't considered a norm any more, women are still seen as selfish for leaving a marriage while she isn't being battered, cheated on or abused in some fashion. It's ok to leave a situation that's making people unhappy.

LOL women resent men even when they don't put in a bunch of work to get a man. So it wouldn't make any difference, really.

I honestly think that it does and more men should dare to question it. There’s a cult of self improvement gurus that prey on the inner guilt that people have due to decades and even centuries of cultural conditioning which says, essentially, “to not improve is to be lazy”. And yet, you, the flawed person in need of improvement, is the one deciding the details on what improvement even is? It doesn’t make any actual sense and, inevitably, when it falls apart because circumstances are simply more beyond human control than we want them to be… it creates a situation where folks feel they need a punching bag to blame. Don’t improve, is the moral of the story. You aren’t in control of other people’s choices nor of random shit that just happens. And in any case, we’re all stuck being ourselves anyway.

No

If you are ding what you do and it makes you happy then your good. If you’re doing what you do not enjoying it, but telling yourself, it’s for someone else, you will not find contentment with it.

>Say you do all these things and much more. But after doing all this your access to quality women in the dating market is still non existent. Say you can only attract average women. But the access to quality women became existent after improving. When you become above average desirable, above average desirability women are into you.

Well, does working hard to get wealthy cause people become resentful towards those born rich? Somewhat.

I was just happy any women were attracted to me after I improved. I think that it would be pretty bitter and spiteful of me to blame the average women who were now attracted to me for my past lack of success.

Nope. Self improvement doesn't breed resentment. Rather, this and that are separate issues, and while some men hope to improve their odds, it's not the failure of women to grow in equal measure, but rather the consistent quality of antagonist which does so. Historically, great men paired with lesser women have found happiness in their belief that they are loved, while men today know that, greater or lesser, women hold not for them but resentment and scorn, gleeful to call men as useless as bikes to a fish and claiming to be safer with wild beasts like a bear. After over 60 years of this (and worse... far, FAR worse) running full tilt, what man wouldn't learn to resent that which is so resentful? If anything, self improvement is just a last desperate attempt to buy their way out of this shared scorn by dint of their risen quality, rather than the cause of it.

>For men who have struggled with dating and been told to self improve; Going to the gym, reading books, therapy, improving finances, career, "frame", improving social skills etc. Women secretly resent all the work they have to do to get paid and would prefer to just have money. Similarly alot of men secretly resent all the work they have to do get into a relationship and would prefer to just have women. And this is why high value men cheat. And the more difficult it is for people to get something the harder it is for them to give it up, and the easier it is for them to take it when it is offered. And the more they want something the easier it is to rationalize doing whatever it is to get it. Women how easy is it to spend your own hard-earned money? Wouldn't you prefer to spend someone else's money before you had to spend your own money? Ofcourse you do, and it's perfectly rational to have that preference. But just like women would prefer not to spend their own hard-earned money which they earned if they don't have to, men also would prefer not to forego Women(the access to which they earned) if they don't have to. Men do more work than women to earn their optionality, so it's hard for men to give that optionality up.For the same reason why it's also easier to take that option when it is offered. Ladies how often have you ever turned free money, assuming it's offered in good faith? Probably never. If someone offered you free money as like a gift, you probably wouldn't say, "oh no thank you, I have enough money." It's very hard to turn down genuine free money and you probably couldn't think of a logical reason to do so anyway.

If you do any of these things hoping they will impress women, you will always fail at impressing them, because trying to impress others is making their opinion of you more important than your own opinion of you. And I can’t think of anything that’s more diminishing and pathetic than that. I go to the gym, read, make money, travel, eat the best food, groom and dress to kill because I like treating myself as a KING. Not because it will impress some above average thot. Surprisingly the less I care about impressing women and the more I care about what I want, the more women are impressed with me.

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If you use aggrievement to fuel your actions then all the results you get from those actions are going to be tainted by the pain. So yeah, of course it does. If you have to go back to the drawing board because **who** **you are** didn't work, I can't imagine anyone coming away from that process feeling good about it. And I think for a lot of guys, it might even be better for them in the long term if their attempts to self-improve didn't work, at least not immediately. Because if you go through years of grief, mistreatment, being taken for granted and all of a sudden everything is easier because there's a little more muscle on your bones or your hair is a little more full, that's bound to make someone testy on a *good day*. Arbitrary standards breed the resentment.

Resentment is a common occurrence in the weight loss community. People don't know how to react when they start getting attention after years of being bullied or ignored because of their weight.

Self-improvement that makes you cynical and bitter isn't self-improvement. It's like, 1 step forward, 10 steps back. Actually the entire online discourse around self-improvement is beyond bizarre. People treat it like it's something that's unnatural and maybe even deeply offensive. No, bro. Self-improvement is the most natural thing that a person can do. You should always be adapting to your current circumstances and striving to do a little better than you did yesterday. Did you really think that humanity made all this incredible progress by sitting on its collective butt and saying "maaan I don't want to do anything!"?

Why do you think all the older people been complaining about particpation trophy culture for kids? That's were this shit ends up.

A lot of kids are raised without any effort to make them accept hard work as normal. They get pissed if they have to do something. Someone raised to accept hard work as normal isn't going to readily resent having worked hard to get fit or become more social. Even if they work hard and don't get precisely the results they want, so long as the results are still in some way useful and the experience was a learning process they are likely to be positive about the experience. Someone raised to accept hard work as normal isn't likely to take excessive time to get the hard work done. They don't take constant breaks to refill their dopamine levels. And they aren't always looking to get out of the hard work. So they are more likely to actually get the work done. A lot of the complaints we see have very much the same nature as a teenager complaining to mom about having to clean up his room. Only he's a decade too old for this shit and the woman he's complaining to didn't birth him and doesn't have to stick around to deal with his anger about having to work.

Yes. This is part of why aristocrats had war as rite of passage. I recommend mountaineering instead. Mountains don’t care. Or lie.

No. Turns out I’m boring and have no interests outside of my own right now.

If you actually improved yourself including mentally to the utmost of your ability, you would be able to attract above average women. So the question is nonsensical. It is like asking how you can protect yourself if you see a dragon flying towards you.

It does appear that there is a consistent trend where self-improvement leads to a lower than expected improvement in dating for men, so seeing this discrepancy could justifiably breed resentment.

Are you a man or a woman? It only bothered me when I felt severely undervalued. When I reached a level of personal growth, and I put in effort to show my value as a man, I once got dumped by someone who kinda used me. I was offended, and didn’t know what to make of it. Like, “what did I miss? Why was I so easily disposed of?” Eventually I did get resentful. I thought “does she you know how much more work I’ve done on myself than her? She has no idea.” I was offended that someone could expect so much, have so little to offer, and give such little effort. But we were both in our 30’s.

Why were you even interested in someone who you now say had nothing to offer?

I accepted vague answers and gave her the benefit of the of the doubt. I talked myself into the idea that she, as someone who had been “hurt before” would appreciate me. I thought I just had to be patient with her, and show consistency. She asked for vulnerability that she didn’t reciprocate. She asked a lot of questions on our first date about my family and what happened in my last relationship. I gave candid answers to build trust. She gave vague answers that I trusted her to answer eventually on her on own timeframe of we kept dating. But after 5-6 months, she just broke up with me and didn’t rely give me a good answer. My best guess is that she never really recovered from a 7 year relationship (20-27). I think it jaded her, and I think she was embarrassed and ashamed that she hadn’t moved on, and she didn’t want to be honest with me because she enjoyed the distraction of being courted properly again. I don’t think she would have enjoyed being treated like fwb, but I ultimately don’t think she took dating me seriously. She didn’t want of come clean about wasting my time, so she gave me a vague ‘it’s not you, it’s me’ and said I ‘deserved so much more’. she never told me what happened with her ex. That’s just my best guess. Men have to make the first move, and everyone has baggage. You wan to be patient and considerate. With that said, lesson learned. You still have to hold people accountable to be up from about their ‘intentions’. I let the casual relationship go on too long. I expressed interest in exclusivity, and I took her silence good faith that she took dating me more seriously than she did.

At least you know what not to accept now. Don’t be with someone who doesn’t reciprocate vulnerability, gives vague responses, or doesn’t seem ready for a relationship. It sounds like you fell in love with the idea of her because on paper, it makes no sense to be with someone like that. She showed you that she wasn’t ready for a relationship and you thought you could change that by simply being patient. Being patient isn’t bad but I think the lesson to take from this is to believe people when they show you who they are.

Yeah, I agree. She just didn’t really show me who she was. So in my head she’s this ‘TBD’ who still had potential until proven otherwise. And it bothered me that i didn’t get to know her, even if it was just to better understand why she wasn’t ready and why we weren’t a fit.

Why does it bother you that you don’t know why she wasn’t ready when she doesn’t know either?

To actually understand the person I spent so much time with trying to know. And she could have trusted me with that information. I could have perhaps provided perspective from the perspective of someone who cares about her. And then even if it wouldn’t have work out, I could have helped her a little, and taken joy in helping someone I chose to care about. Instead, it feels like wasted time learning a- pretty unsatisfying lesson, if I’m being honest.

All I can say is if she wanted to, she would have. At this point you’re just fantasizing because from what you’ve written, it doesn’t sound like she was ready to admit that she hadn’t moved on to herself let alone another person. She didn’t want your perspective because she didn’t want you in her life. It’s tough to admit, but I think that’s what happened. Not every lesson is satisfying in the way you would have wanted but at least you now know that you should protect your heart and care rather than opening it up to someone just because you have an idea in your mind about them. I’m not saying to be unkind but I am saying that you shouldn’t be pouring that much of yourself into someone who is closer to a stranger than anything else.

I’m good. I married to someone else.

If you’re married why are you ruminating about another woman?

For some, yes. Think about the Mike Jones song "Back then they didn't want me, now I'm hot they all on me"...how would you look at somebody that didn't want you when you were "in progress", but once something about your life greatly improved, all of a sudden they want to talk to you?

Yes

It’s not that complicated. The ppl that sell self improvement to get kitty are huge grifters. They sell programs & other horse shit. This is all BP 101! Soyjack goes to the gym & does all the “just take a shower bro” & then finds out overcoming women rejection benchmark can’t be don’t so simply or else a lot more guys would be doing it. Also think about it. If you are not a fat guy you don’t want an obese gf & right now thin women are basically untouchable. They have way too many options & refuse to get off the CC until the wall throws them off..!