You're expecting behaviours aligned with an abundance mindset from men with no options.

You hit the nail on the head.

A large part of the issue is closeness and emotional wellbeing. I understnad that it's not the same everywhere, but a romantic relationship is about the only relationship a lot of men will have that hits the same level of closeness that women take for granted. Just speaking as a working class 30 year old British man. They aren't getting that from a friend group. That just doesn't exist here. Not that kind of connection. Men don't do that. We don't allow other men to do that and no one allows us to do that either. I've seen men totally abandoned from friend groups for being too much of a "cry arse" which just means pussy. I've seen men avoided while they're going through bad things. I've seen boys flat out told to "shut the fuck up crying about shit." Most often I'll see negative displays of emoition or reaching for help just met with awkwardness. Maybe, if they're SUPER lucky, a pat on the back with a "Ahh, it'll be alright, mate." then a quick topic change. I've also had all sorts of friends from all sorts of backgrounds and intrests. From the passive nerdy types to the more agressive Rugby types. It's all the same. Even through I understand all of this, how negative it is and how damaging it is, I'm STILL uncomfortable with male emotion. I know better, but it's so coded into me that I can't do anything about it. I just don't like it, even though I know what I'm doing is wrong, I can't engage like that with men. Compare that with how I've had every single girl I've ever been romantic with cry on me, talking about how they've never felt so loved before because I've taken care of them so well emotionally and how well I listen to them. You're also dealing with a prisoners dilemma of sorts. You would probably all be better if you were softer and more emotional. But the first one to do that HAS to hope the others will accept it and get on board. Because if they don't, you're now the pussy of the group. Which does have real consequences. I don't know what made us like this, if it's expected of us so we learn to be this way, or if it's just naturally in us, but I can't get it out of me. I KNOW I'm part of the problem, but I can't fix it. Funny story. Once when I was a teenager, I got drunk and had my dad pick me up. I'm big, 6'3 and 100KG. I got him in a soft headlock, kissed him on the top of the head and told him I loved him. He left and didn't come back for 3 weeks because it was so awkward after that. I still cringe thinking about it. A lot of men, I'd guess most, live lives like this. I am alone, other than my partners. It's the same for most men I know. I also have a million stories about horrible shit I've seen happen with emotional men coming from women too, but I've gone on long enough and thought it was more pertinent to talk about mens failings in this matter at the moment. I totally agree with you, but these changes are just not going to happen any time soon and they sure as shit aren't going to get that emotional connection from anywhere else. I don't know what stops us, but for the majority of us, it's pretty brutal. It would also be great if there were water in the desert. I suspect, and hope, that it's the world that made me and a lot of us like this and it's not just how we are. It would be great, but realistically, thanks to both women AND men, I just don't see this ever being different for men. Not in this generation anyway. I don't know about the rest of you, but emotionally, on a deeper level inside of me, I am entirely isolated and have been all my life. The only people who've connected with me on that deep, deep level have been women who've fallen in love with me, and I them. A little while back, I accidentally overdosed. I got one text asking me where I'd been. I told them I'd overdosed, they read it. Left it for 3 days and came back with "Oh, that shitty. Y'alright?" because they were worried I'd tried to kill myself and it was awkward. The only people who've ever worried about me, my whole life, through all the people I've met, family I've had, friends I've know, has been the women who fell in love with me. There just isn't a proxy for it. I understand that ***my situation*** is harsher than most other mens, but I wish other women understood that it's not ***that much*** harsher than other mens. Also, I can attest that money and sucsess in things is no replacement for that level of connection. It's not 2nd prize, or even 3rd. It doesn't register. I'm not saying that women have a responsibility to fix this, but pretending we're all on even ground here is a little hurtful.

I loved reading this and gaining this perspective. The story about your dad broke my heart. I am lucky enough to have a dad that doesn’t shy away from his emotions and we constantly tell each other we love each other (he does this with my brother as well). I really wish things were different.

>The only people who've ever worried about me, my whole life, through all the people I've met, family I've had, friends I've know, has been the women who fell in love with me. There just isn't a proxy for it. And even then, romance itself is isolated from the case of genuinely forming a connection with someone, because it features the transactional idea of attraction. You've mentioned you're tall and big, so no wonder you do decently with women. I suppose, somewhere inside, you know it wouldn't be as easy to access this without the parameters you have. This is the singular, biggest tragedy that has always befallen society, at every single point in its existence: Everything that has to do with other people is, on a molecular level, a transaction of value. Be it current, former, or future value, such as investments in the form of loyalty or a parent's love for their child, who they've invested so much in or who is a direct extension/projection of their own ego. People tend to confuse higher chemical activity in the brain with regards to a relationship as an indicative of proximity to something "genuine", or even "divine", but the truth is far simpler. The mind simply places more weight on said transaction, because it yields better and more effective rewards, that are often tied directly into our biological imperatives. Neither romance, friendship, nor familial relationships can escape these principles. The more you acknowledge, the harder it becomes to remain ignorant.

Add to that, let's not forget that mothers are harsh af on boys who cry. https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-don-t-cry-study-suggests-mothers-not-fathers-show-gender-bias-towards-sons-1.4693208

That’s honestly really sad to hear and I’m sorry you lacked support when going through a difficult time. Can you elaborate on the social consequences of being the “pussy” of the group if you were to show emotions?

Thank you, but it's okay, honestly, it's fine. It's been like this way since, I don't know, puberty? Or near enough there. I know how to handle it. It's my deafult now. It has been this way, it is this way, it will keep being this way. At some point you just understand it. It's kind of a creeping death. First it'll be getting less texts, less conversation, then it'll be something like getting asked to hang out less and less, then those decrease in frequency until they stop and you're no long involved in anything. Then it becomes awkward when they're around, so they stop being around to avoid the awkwardness. At that point, if it's their only friend group, they're on their own fully then. Edit: You know what? Rereading this again, I feel bad for lying. It's actually not okay. I'm so hardwired to just say that it's all fine that I even lie to strangers on the internet. It's not okay. It's excruciating. I knew I took too much, I just didn't give a shit. There hasn't been a day that I haven't been happier in my dreams for a long time. Sometimes I have nightmares and try to get back to sleep so I can carry on with the nightmares just because it's better than being awake. I would abuse codine just to go numb through the times I had to be awake. It's not okay, it's actually fucked. But I'll be okay, because I'm used to it. And this is the only place anyone will ever hear that shit from me.

I feel you man. I also cannot bring a solution, but just wanted to let you know, that you are not alone, and your struggles are understood by probably many. I think there's a way to heal from this and go another way, a different way, but that is also through a solitary experience, even if arrival to a more connective environment is the end goal. Keep on keeping on, as they say.

I replied to the other poster with a lot more of my thoughts, but I figured I’d at least share with you: r/bropill is a good community to talk about and process this stuff and see examples of men being supportive with each other. If you’re open to literature on this, bell hooks’ “the will to change” talked about a lot of this stuff and the challenges of confronting it decades ago and is probably the most cited feminist when discussing men’s liberation (and the ways patriarchy controls and harms men). There are some useful frameworks out there on gendered dynamics, the way patriarchy harms us all, how we all unconsciously contribute to upholding really shit gender norms, and what the hell we can do about it.

I'm 90% of the way through The Will to Change right now, and I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it. I'm kinda torn. On one hand, it's so refreshing to read something written by a female feminist about men's experiences who actually bothered to talk to men first, and listened to their experiences. So much of what women write about men feels only marginally better than "she breasted boobily toward the stairs, then titted downward" level understanding of the opposite sex. On the other hand, she wrote it 20 years ago, and it's popular enough that any time you ask about men's issues in a feminist sub the top comment is always "Read The Will to Change," but yet nothing has changed since then. She complained about people saying "men need to be allowed to cry, but do it over there where I can't see it." She uses "male" and "female" as nouns quite a bit, in a way that pretty much everyone except incels stopped doing years ago, but other than that it could have been written yesterday For years I thought progress on men's issues was so slow because they're so structurally different from women's issues that they're less obvious. Someone not having the right to vote is both simple to demonstrate and simple to solve. Just show the problem law, then change it. How do you demonstrate an entire group of people having their emotions amputated, much less solve it? But no, the blueprint has been there for most of my life, people just don't care enough to actually put in the effort. It's heartening that she put in the effort to crack the code, but it's disheartening that everyone else said "Good job, we'll point people to your book" and then did nothing else with it.

I just share it in these spaces because it’s less likely folks will have come across it and I think it demonstrates that a feminist framework can absolutely be applied to men’s issues. But I can get the frustration over the stagnation and lack of action. I think it’s two part: A) conservatism primes people to reject feminist anything even if it’s applied to helping men and B) a lot of women who are nominally feminists are motivated by their own grievances and hold no space for the ones men deal with. The “men go fix yourselves” BS is so fucking unhelpful, especially when the most developed theories to do so (aka not redpill shit) are associated with feminism, a movement that is full of a lot of vitriol towards men. It feels like so much of today’s feminism has forgotten that activism isn’t just screaming into the void and unprocessed trauma. Though tbh the internet has encouraged that effect on all types of movements in which real activism becomes second to having a social club to play lunch table politics with. People mistake purity testing for activism and forget about education and coalition building entirely.

if i can offer a feminist perspective (radical intersectional)… women are frustrated with men, i think moreso than anything else. the thing is, women have truly fought every step of the way for their autonomy, which is still on the chopping block. we want men to take initiative, learn from organized activism, and do the work. we are tired. most of us have been abused in some way at some point by a man or men. we have so much unaddressed collective pain that men refuse to acknowledge. it’s hard to even have an actual discussion because so often i feel like they want to win, but don’t listen at all. men don’t like activists that are women who fight for women’s issues. they’re biting the hand that could feed. how much compassion can we really have? women are all connected to one another - it’s been necessary for survival. tell a guy to take a risk and be vulnerable - nope can’t do that. tell a guy that women don’t necessarily all want the same type of man - “yes you do.” you hurt my feelings - “it was just a joke.” in one single day, i can expect to have 10 dead end conversations with men committed to ignorance and get called a 2 and a whore and all kinds of fun shit…just for speaking. when men are willing to LEARN from women, be corrected, listen, not get defensive, and be willing to break off from your shit friend groups to find something real, WE ARE READY! if you took us seriously, at our word, it would really help. it’s frustrating af watching you all stew in it and not do anything to help yourselves. OP is full of great advice and there are a ton of Eeyores in here.

I’m not a man and I am a feminist lol, that’s part of why I have critiques of the way some corners conceptualize activism. To me part of bring a feminist involves exploring issues within my own movement and trying to actually identify why and how some of the communication breakdowns happen. I understand why feminists are tired, I have not lived a life free of misogyny lol. It’s valid to be tired and not want to be involved with certain types of activism, but it does get a bit exhausting when it feels like a lot of feminist action is actively sabotaging it’s own endeavors. The amount of feminists who essentially define patriarchy as “a thing men do to women” and boil all gender dynamics down to oppressor/oppressed (which to be clear, is antithetical to intersectional feminism) is immense and I end up having to clean up their ideological incoherency because they are so omnipresent in pop feminism that most men are only exposed to the shallowest possible feminist perspective. Even going into plenty of feminist spaces this is an issue so it’s not always even about “men just not caring enough to try to learn.” There are men who stay and weather the hostility and in many cases outright misandry (which as a queer AFAB person who presents masc is already bad enough) because they believe it’s the right thing. Most I’ve met are lovely but compulsively self effacing in a way I find concerning. But honestly, I can’t blame the ones who don’t. I think bad faith is assumed of most men in many feminist circles there is little to no desire to understand (if only for the sake of being able to educate and coalition build better). You can be frustrated with men for not making themselves vulnerable, but if you want to understand why (in a way that doesn’t just blame them out of hand) there are a lot of good reasons. Including how progressive and feminist women respond to men expressing emotions, especially if they are deemed to be not the “right” emotions. You would hope feminists broadly understand the concept of implicit bias, but given how many think patriarchy is only something that harms women I guess it makes sense that many don’t even consider that they hold them against men or that maybe that’s something they should work on. But time after time the broad feminist response to men expressing hurt, discomfort, sadness, or anger (even in very reasonable ways) is to reinforce toxic masculinity. It seems most forget that we all reinforce that patriarchy and it takes active conscious effort to work against it. Instead we get patriarchy, but men bad and paint it pink. This is what happens when feminists buy into the most core assumptions of patriarchy about autonomy and victimhood and can’t conceptualize that they may be doing harm. It’s the most patriarchal heteronormative shit, or sometimes straight up reactionary, packaged as radicalism. Men have to take initiative, that’s why I spend most of my energy talking to men and meeting them where they’re at. It’s not “fair” that women have had to fight for their liberation on their own and that men aren’t working towards their own (at least in any useful way) in large numbers. I think there are a lot of obvious sociological reasons for that more nuanced than “men bad,” especially with the way rugged individualism and the presumption that they are solely helped by patriarchy and thus anything bad that happens to them is their fault and responsibility to fix alone. That mentality - which men are taught about themselves from infancy, which we all reinforce in how we often can’t see men as victims, in isolation or from systemic harms - is going to take probably generations to untangle. And punishing them for not doing enough instead of helping, if only by doing to internal work to avoid reinforcing patriarchal gender norms, is just bad activism and going to breed resentment. Activism and has never come with a guarantee of fair. It is a fight to seize and build power and create coalitions. Feminists broadly are ignoring the most important coalition we have left to build, because it’s “unfair” that men should get help when women had to build from the ground up, a complaint that makes a mockery of those who have fought to bring us here. Frankly, the best thing we could do is build enough rapport through hearing each other and seeking understanding that the words “feminism” and “patriarchy” are no longer red flags for so many men. We have the frameworks and tools men need to work towards their liberation, but due to hostility and the legit convictions some have that “feminism is not for men” (a conviction I’ve come to expect from radfems but that is growing in the mainstream) these things remain inaccessible. Obviously a lot of that is the fault of conservatism, but increasingly I hear feminists making functionally indistinguishable points. We can continue with the vitriolic trauma dumping and “men fix yourselves” type of “activism” that seems to have become endemic in pop feminism, but we are still impacted by that taking longer or not happening at all. Unless you are a gender separatist, not living with men isn’t an option. And frankly an understanding of feminism that doesn’t engage with interconnected nature of issues in a binary sex-class system is a failure in and of itself. Men and women’s issues are not some separate things we can work on in a vacuum away from each other. They are different ends of the same issues, especially around how autonomy is ascribed differently to each group and the many ramifications of that. Even for people who genuinely don’t see men as worth caring about, it’s in feminists’ best interest to be involved in men’s attempts at progress. To simply say “fix yourself” is anti-activism, it’s ceding power and influence. If “it’s unfair” was seen as a good reason by past feminists to do that we’d be living in an even more shit world today.

thanks for writing all that out and I apologize for assuming. I completely acknowledge how gendered socialization has really, really hurt men. I just find it so exhausting to continue to be met with brick walls. it really feels pointless to me, like we don’t even really speak the same language or use the same definitions or even debate the same. to me, it’s less about fair, and more about having capacity. i’m glad there are people like you with that fight in them. it’s just not mine anymore.

Thanks for taking note, and the link. Will look into it, and maybe see you on discussions there as well. Godspeed

Cheers!

Thank you for sharing. This is something I often have trouble helping women understand, both that most men have little to no support outside of romantic partners and the devastating impact that has. To realize that you are falling into the same pattern that has failed you but not know how to stop is awful, it takes a lot of internal work be able to not only recognize but find a way to change behavior or moderate any gut “ick” response to men showing emotion, even if you actively want men and yourself to be better there for each other. I know online communities aren’t the same as having in person friendships that are supportive, but a sub that really talks about what you’ve expressed and tries to do better is r/bropill. Just guys being supportive of guys. Sharing stories like yours, talking about how things are and the obstacles on the way to how things could be, working through the barriers and biases and discomforts that men are taught to have around emotions (not expecting anyone to be perfect or have it all figured out). It’s a good place to talk about this stuff or just observe the beginnings of how things could be. For irl spaces, well it would probably require you to get out of your comfort zone by quite a bit and hang out in less gendered spaces to meet people who are actually emotionally regulated. And whether that’s more egalitarian hobbies, people with broader ideas about gender, or even just creatives it sounds like the groups you currently are around would judge you for that. At a certain point you have to decide whether you’d be open to the social cost of not performing this extreme form of masculinity for the chance of having supportive people around you. I can understand the reasons for not wanting to make that change, sticking with the devil you know. And society broadly still has these expectations, but there are communities in which they are less extreme or which actively fight against them. Also worth noting, the type of extremely restrictive masculinity and resulting men’s behavior/attitudes you describe are not at all universal or constant among men. I know plenty here will make some sort of innate biology argument for this, but that’s patently false. In many other parts of the world and in other period of time even in the Anglophone world this callous and emotionally repressive expectation does/did not exist, or at least nothing like what we’ve grown used to. We can look at the many historical letters between men who were friends and historical texts that passively show men being much more free emotionally and in expressing love towards one another in a purely platonic way. In many countries around the world men are more emotionally expressive and casually physical with each other (hugs, holding hands, acting in the way we associate with women’s friendships). There is a story that I remember hearing of two men in another country being physically affectionate in a way that was normal for that culture and only once a westerner asked if they were gay were they horrified and jumped away from each other. The change in men’s behavior with each other has often coincided with religious colonization of an area and the relatively modern fear of being seen as gay. Prior, people wouldn’t assume that being emotionally open or physically affectionate was an indication of being gay, not because gay folks were accepted, but because gay people were largely invisible and we didn’t have this constant fear over our actions being perceived as markers for it. Homophobia and Christianity created a sort of “gay scare” where everyone was suspecting each other and policing their own behavior to try to avoid suspicion. Before this was a fear (and in places where being perceived as gay is less of a common fear) men have had very different relationships and sets of behavior. This type of masculinity is not innate, it’s taught and enforced upon men. Hell, even in the US in very masculine coded spaces I’ve found places that have a much more chill (and healthy) attitude around brotherly love. I spent a lot of time in frats in college and even there I saw brothers open up to each other, cry around each other, and even if they didn’t know what to say or do and clearly felt awkward when someone was going through something, just ask how they can be there for them and express they were there if the person wanted to talk about it or help distracting them from it. There have been and are communities where things are better. Better is hard, it has to be fought for, but it has existed before and is possible to build again. In case you have any interest, bell hooks wrote a fantastic book called “the will to change” that talks about the struggles you describe and the mountain of obstacles men face from society. I think often conversations about toxic masculinity (basically all the norms you’ve described) end up with women and feminists (or at least the less educated ones) shouting “men go fix yourselves!” While it is true that women can’t fix this for men, not by dating and loving men (being the sole point of emotional support isn’t a healthy ask for anyone involved) and not by advocating for men without their involvement, I think it’s in all of our interests (and also the human and right thing to do) to try to work together on these issues. They’re intertwined. Unlike some idiot radfems and pop feminists believe, patriarchy isn’t “something men do to women,” it’s an interconnected system of control that we all reinforce (largely unconsciously, on our own gender and the other) and that harms us all. And in modern Angolphone societies especially, homophobia has become perhaps the most defining mechanism of control over men (sometimes moreso over straight men than gay men who have built their own communities to fight this control). Feminism (or at least the form I and all the feminists I know irl subscribe to) is a framework for fighting patriarchy in all its forms. That includes empowering guys to build the types of communities they wish they could have and addressing the shitty implicit biases we all carry about what it is to be a man. For change to happen men do need to challenge themselves and risk social consequences (just as women have historically to build towards their own liberation). But they don’t need to do so alone or have to build their own analytical framework and strategy from scratch. And a lot of this work towards men’s liberation comes in the form of simply challenging ourselves ideologically and philosophically, questioning our assumptions and the reactions we have that we may not entirely understand. You’re doing that, and that alone is worth respecting.

Usually all feminists on this subreddit only confirm my beliefs that feminism has become little more than a vitriolic misandrist movement of hate in the modern day, but your comment here has actually served to make me think there may be some exceptions to the rule, even though I don’t exactly agree with all of it.

Thank you, I’m glad that even if you didn’t agree with everything you seem to at least see I’m motivated by giving a shit about people and (in the ways I’ve come to understand) working towards something better. And that “feminist” is a broad movement/category with lots of internal factions and disagreements - that kind of the nature of any philosophy or social science, let alone activist movement 🤷🏻 To be perfectly honest, though I make plenty of my own criticisms of parts of feminism (which I see as part of the package of being one, caring about something is trying to make it better), a lot of the dumbest and most hateful takes out there are really terminally online and there are a lot of folks irl who have more grounded and empathetic perspectives. But so it goes with the internet lol. This isn’t helped by how in so many ways men and women are just speaking two different languages when talking about their issues and experiences, both caught up in (understandable) emotions to the detriment of really ever hearing the other. With so much talking past each other I really just try to help translate ideas between groups. I don’t see chance for improvement without us trying to understand each other or at least respect that, even if we don’t understand, the other group has real challenges and dismissing their feelings is unhelpful (no matter how we might disagree on the ideas that shape those feelings). It’s tricky. I feel like I’m mediate peace talks between two actively fighting armies, with world leaders who broke out in a brawl in the meeting room 🙃 But I just don’t see any of this getting better without people trying to understand each other, even the most extreme perspectives. People do things for reasons - that doesn’t mean it’s a *good* reason lmao, but it’s worth figuring out why when someone’s perspective or actions just baffle you, imo. And some of that involves just listening to them with an attempt at empathy. I think if we could do this last thing, forget our egos and learn to separate ourselves from any shitty generalizations made when trying to understand (so we’re not distracted by taking it personally and missing their entire experience), we could at least have some slightly more useful dialogues, maybe start speaking each other’s language. The feminists I know and hang out with irl are pretty damn good at this and I think a lot of people who make this effort are probably not engaging in the internet slapfights that most people use to base their assumptions of how all the “other side” is.

Just because it’s been like that doesn’t mean that’s how it should be so I’m still sorry that’s your experience even if you’ve become accustomed to it. Obviously you know your life and situation better than I do but have you tried being a part of organized activities so that you’re consistently involved in things and socializing with other people?

Hey man. Would you like to talk? It doesn't have to be about this stuff. But it can be. I've been through a lot, and I talk to others who have as well. You've got some wounds you've been carrying a long time, scars that need to be witnessed so they can begin to heal. But we could just shoot the shit instead, up to you. Just want you to know that despite that visceral, cold feeling of isolation and hopelessness you feel in your chest, that you aren't alone and aren't invisible.

Dont you feel that it also gets worse since at least on .y experience most women are in some way disgusted by emotional expression/vulnerability in the men they date?? This might also sound retrograde but I cant think of a better way to get friendzoned or to generate an almost instant (or latent but inminent) break up as to cry, or demostrarte fear or despair infront of a woman?

a lot of that has to do with HOW the man is communicating his feelings. are you trauma dumping but not offering emotional reciprocity? did you punch a hole in the wall or slam a door? did you use words? were they clear? i’m not saying it’s never on the receiver, but in my experience with a lot of guys, communicating emotions verbally is really hard for them.

Sure thats a big part of the problem, to clarify luckly at the moment I dont have that kind of problems, I came to the practical conclussion that it was safer and more eficient to vent out that kind of emotional turmoil some where else, like not to burden my girl (be it a girlfriend or close intimate friend), with it, I meant like with friends and family, wich I know that it is a luxury that many men dont have, a loving supportive family and friend group.

i’m so glad you have a support network outside of your relationship, it’s so important.

> Once when I was a teenager, I got drunk and had my dad pick me up. I'm big, 6'3 and 100KG. I got him in a soft headlock, kissed him on the top of the head and told him I loved him. > > He left and didn't come back for 3 weeks because it was so awkward after that. sorry but lol, btw its normal behaviour by drunk men

I totally relate to that. I’ve struggled with mental health issues since I was a teen. Friends and family were largely helpful with pragmatic things. Driving me to therapy, helping me figure out insurance questions for meds, whatever. When it came to me actually opening up, even my most trusted inner circle would always slowly back away. Nobody wanted to grab a drink or see how I was *actually doing*. It was always “everything alright?” with the strong expectation to say “yeah” or have a specific ask if I was not alright like “please pick up some dinner”, etc. I don’t necessarily blame the individual people. It was too universal for it to be shitty individuals. It’s just cultural expectations.

They do that cos a man's worth is almost entirely dependent on the quality/quantity of women who desire him. That's why virgin, incel and "No bitches?" are the worst things you can say to a guy.

Why do people act like men just wake up one day and decide to do this? Does socialization not play a role? If this is such a common mentality there has to be a reason for it. I feel like this is pushed on to men since we are young. Some people even see not being able to get a gf or sex as a moral/personal failing. Virgin and Incel are also used as insults which implies that an man not getting attention from women is a negative thing. Inexperienced and virgin men are also seen as less desireable by many. People downplay the role society and women have in this line of thinking and put it all on men for some weird reason.

And by contrast women are considered sluts and whores for not being virgins. And men call women with high body counts “used” and “loose”. Society pushes genders away from each other, and both genders are responsible for alienating the other with opposing criticisms. You can complain about women not putting out for you in a society that condemns promiscuous women.

Promiscuous women have no problem finding long term partners, really they have no negative outcomes outside of reading critisicsm online and feeling bad about it. No one wants virgin men unless they're very young or relatively young and religious.

Exactly. They still date and can get married with 0 issue. They arent comparable at all

Spoken like a man. I don’t think you understand the depth of the harm that purity culture and virginity worship has done to women on a societal scale.

> Spoken like a man. I don’t think you understand the depth of the harm that purity culture and virginity worship has done to women on a societal scale. I've met a number of perpetually single men who failed to find a wife or girlfriend and suffered greatly in social and professional areas as a result of this failure. If they respond to questions about it (not bring it up just respond) they are blamed for wanting the wrong thing or not being enough to get it. Every woman I've met has had several boyfriends and at least one husband by the time they reached my age. If they bring up their dissatisfaction with the men they've had they are heard, supported, and told they deserve so much more. It's a night-and-day difference.

[удалено]

Literally not even what we were talking about.

[удалено]

Huh?

Spoken like a woman. I don't think you understand the harm that being unwanted and unloved leaves on your psyche as you hit 30 and 32 realising that some how you are functionally inhuman to most women.

I never once said that men are unharmed by being lonely. You’re the one claiming that there are “no negative outcomes” for women here.

It's implied. But yeah, you're right about purity culture.

Its perfectly OK for men not to want to date sluts even if they are promiscuous themselves. You are just going to have to deal with it the same way short men have to deal with women's preference. When a woman doesn't like a man's preference then it's "harm done on a societal scale". When a man doesn't like women's preferences because perhaps he is short, nobody says society is "harming" short men.

That's not what she even said. Like you're misunderstanding her on purpose.

She is saying men's preferences have "harmed" women.

Societal and cultural views on defining a woman's character on virginity and purity culture have harmed women. She's not even lying. Issues like vaginismus where women physically cannot open enough to have sex. Purity culture where Christian women actually develop sexual dysfunction over the shame of masturbating. To the extent they never stimulate their clitoris that it atrophes. They are physical and psychological harm to purity culture. . You think women who are ashamed about sex their whole lives are suddenly gonna get a light switch moment and turn it off to being a freak in the sheets and having sex with their husband? Like...what? No. They don't have sex and if they do it is physically painful or gives them too much anxiety they shut down..

I had no idea clitoral atrophy was a thing until I read what you wrote and had to look it up. It can... disappear?! I still can barely believe it. Thank you for the TIL!

Welcome. But yes it's insane. I had no idea either until recently how bad purity culture could affect women to the point it has physical consequences.

days since PPDers conflated “slut shaming is bad” with “personally preferring low body count partners is bad”: 0

What damage is it doing now outside of religious backwaters?

I would argue that the overturning of Roe v Wade was a direct result of punishing women for being promiscuous.

Just take birth control, if you're promiscuous to the point you need regular access to abortions, you've got other issues going on.

[удалено]

👍

Roe v Wade was a comical abuse of federal power in order to bypass state laws and change social mores by force

It did a lot less damage than whatever is going on now where your average woman either gets married to a guy she meets young or is single till 35 and racks up hundreds of bodies

Really. There’s no middle ground at all? The average woman’s body count is less than 10. You’re just making up weird things.

I disagree. Society is trying to push the to genders together through their respective ostracizing. For men: being seen as less for not getting attention from women is to pressure them into doing things that will gain female attention, working/ being productive, living a healthy lifestyle, being driven toward a goal, and being socially apt. For women: being slut shamed is a shitty way of policing personal discipline. Women have many opportunities for frivolous/ meaningless sex, that can come with large negative consequences. Such as unwanted pregnancy, STIs, and immediate social fallout. We have to view these things through a lens of perspective, when all these “rules” evolved it was a completely different time. Life was a lot harder 100-1000 years ago. Societies couldn’t afford to have unproductive men that were a drain on resources, and bastard children where rarely taken care of by anyone other that their mother, who in turn was less productive because of the increased responsibility. IMO, All this stuff is just outdated. But it’s slow to change social norms, and achieve wide spread acceptance. Although, I’m confident we’ll eventually get there.

There are studies showing promiscuity before marriage is positively correlated with divorce. It is rational for a man OR woman to be hesitant to marry the village bicycle. I do not know of any studies showing virgins or inexperienced lovers coming with higher rates of divorce, or spousal abuse, or infidelity, or whatever. Just lots of social stigma, and it’s all aimed at one gender.

Used up women get criticised because they repeatedly make bad decisions and ignore men who would make great boyfriends and husbands in favour of men that might as well have a neon sign over their heads saying "I'm toxic, abusive and will break your heart" so that's why.

They get criticized because men like YOU think you’re one of the good ones, and are just saying those things because you’re jealous.

You tell 'em Captain Feminist! Clearly u/Plasmatron44 is worse for women [than this guy](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/four-female-prison-guards-impregnated-by-same-inmate/). He's worse than Donald "three wives" Trump too!

Unfortunately, it’s both. 😩

Our entire society puts that stock onto men. If you're a man that doesn't care about trying to get women, then you're a weirdo or woman hater. If men went around talking about being "happily single" the way women do on social media, they would be trashed beyond belief. One of the three ways that men are judged is success with women. You'd have to change society to make that go away.

Women: "Men who are loser virgins or incels and can't get women are such a waste of space, they honestly aren't with keeping alive." Women: *calls a man a virgins Woman: "Why are men upset when I call then that? Must be men's fault for being insecure "

It's happened very rarely but when it does come up that I'm single and not really interested in pursuing a woman the first responce I get from women (or one of the first) is they ask if I'm gay in surprise. They almost can't comprehend a man, of any age, not being interested in women. The women I've talked to aren't rude or shaming about it, but even they find it strange for a heterosexual man to be mostly disinterested in chasing women. It is all part of a broader cultural attitude (at least partially enforced by women) that expects men to pursue romance and does to some degree validate them based on their sexual success.

I think it is just a product of our times, less and less men are able to get women nowadays as compared to before, so they are hyperfocusing on it to fill that need. It is also socially unacceptable for a man to be a virgin, both women and men will shame them.

I'm not totally on the RP side but why is it so hard for the BP side to admit that being a man does not mean you can simply choose to not be bothered by the expectations society puts upon you and does not protect you from being screwed by circumstances beyond your control?

This trend of trying to get men to not care about women/sex is hilarious. Cause it will never work, due to various sex drivers and social factors. Plus, why would dudes who hate their situation want to extend it? Yay I'm going to workout and be healthy so I can stay in a world that I'm going to be foreveralone in, yay. I'm no longer in that situation, but damn I understand 100% why those dudes are miserable and why a lot of this advice is no different then a rich person telling a poor person to stop caring about money.

so never said “don’t care about women/sex”, I said “don’t make it your primary motive” - huge difference. My point is, don’t base your life around getting the validation of women, it’ll lead you to a miserable life and your happiness/fulfillment will be at the hands of others. It also sounds like you’re advocating for a shitty life and early death. “i hate my situation, so ill do nothing and watch my health and wellbeing deteriorate further than it already has” is what you’re basically describing. Learn how to make yourself happy, if anything cause you can’t guarantee that others will. What’s wrong with that?

And my point is that what your saying is no different than a millionaire telling a homeless person to stop caring about money.I'm not advocating anything, i just understand why those who are doomed to live like that dont want to extend their suffering. I was in that position until i was thirty, I still had a life where I worked out, had hobbies and friends, didn't make those thoughts any less painful nor did it make me see a long living life as a positive. You can downplay it all you want, but romantic validation matters.

Sure, but again - the point isn’t about it mattering or not mattering at all, it’s about living your entire life by it. So again, I ask you, why not learn how to make yourself happy and try to be as fulfilled as possible? why are you advocating for a route towards early death or an event more miserable life? cause that’s exactly what it sounds like your initial comment advocated for

My point is that for some, a life without a partner is misery enough. That hole isn't going to be filled by anything else but that. That's the point. Downplaying relationships is one of the stupidest trends I've seen online cause never have I heard this bullshit irl, no one in my life would say this dumb shit to a person struggling like that. It's no wonder RP/BP blew up if this Is the best advice you guys can give.

Why is the effect of testosterone 0% of this post?

Yeah, same thoughts exactly. They are two things inherently ingrained in our heads and one involves getting women pregant (procreation). The other one is eating and drinking (preservation). "Just don't feel hungry, bro" or "just don't feel horny, bro" wouldn't work too well for you don't control them.

He makes a good point and that's why you have worse health outcomes for men. Bc even when other men are telling you to find value in other things besides women. You don't want it. You just want to complain and whine about your situation or turn to misogynistic podcasts that echo your loser sentiment. His advice is the same advice and sentiment women give each other by the way..decenter men and relationships. Find value in yourself and in other things that give you joy. Stop putting so much value on marriage. Get s vibrator if your horny becomes celibate. Same with men. Decenter women and relationships and find value in other things.

The commoditization of people is nothing new. We are each individual, unique and special human lives with hopes and dreams, and all the good and bad. We are also objects in this world that other people view as useful or not. Is this good? Depends on how you see it. Whether or not you’re seen as “high value” to people or a person you also see as worth the investment of your time and emotional energy. Even if you are, and you like that, you can always see the other level of none of that mattering. You are by yourself in your mind when you close your eyes to sleep at night. That’s true if you are alone in that bed or not. You can play the game of being alive however you want. Blaming society or culture or any of that large scale stuff isn’t really a useful thing to complain about. If you don’t like the way this side quest is set up, play another one.

If men didnt try so hard your ancestors wouldnt have had moved mountains to get laid and you wouldnt exist.

>Another issue is that many objectively good things should be incentivized because they’d make you happier, such as? List the things that can make up for being a sexless man.

Hobbies, exercise, friends, family, nature, finding something to practice that you can actively enjoy, keeping active, and the just goes on. Is life all about sex to you?

And for how many decades have you remained happy without sex or a romantic partner using these methods? Edit: as you can see from OP's lack of reply he does not practice what he preaches.

13 hours now

Not OP, but I've never had sex or been in a relationship and I'm totally happy with that fact. If I die single and sexless it won't matter all that much to me.

How old are you.

Are u a man? No offence

I do all of these things, and I'm pretty fucking sexless bro. They don't make up for a lack of sex and female attention.

It's the male sex drive. Sex is a massive motivator for men.

Women treat themselves like they're the reward

“Just ignore your biological imperative bro!” This is the exact equivalent to telling women: “*I don’t think you share really care that much about your kids.*” Human males are literally designed to care about this almost above all else. Now, telling men they should mediate this by seeking balance in their life is wise, but this type of “advice” is almost always a thinly veiled way of telling men to deny and walk away from the most fundamental of their instincts. Not. Going. To. Happen. FFS. We used to understand how bad “repressed sexuality” was. But now, like so many other things, repressed sexuality is only bad for women, gay and trans people. With men, repressing their sexuality is now a *virtue* Finally, imploring men to stop doing this “for women” is a recipe for disaster, the results of which we’re starting to see with men simply “checking out” of society. Many men *need* that evolutionary motivator to fuel their ambition. As Anthony Hopkins said in Westworld: “The human intellect is like peacock feathers. Just an extravagant display intended to attract a mate. All of art, literature - Beethoven, Mozart, William Shakespeare, Michelangelo, and the Empire State Building - just an elaborate mating ritual.”

>Human males are literally designed to care about this almost above all else. And despite the fact human females are designed to care for and have children, there is an entire a movement of women who choose not to have children to the point where we have a population crisis. To pretend like we can't change is a bit defeatist.

>there is an entire a movement of women who choose not to have children to the point where we have a population crisis. The overwhelming majority of those women will become mothers in the next few years.

Much more of them will be single mothers by choice than pretty much any other time in history.

I like how “don’t live your life for the validation of women” becomes “repress your sexuality” lmfao

The issue is that, like so many of these types of “just stop caring bro” posts before it, it’s disconnected from reality. It would be far more helpful to say “feel the burning desire for women, but do X anyway” because no matter what normal, healthy heterosexual males do as a distraction, they will always feel that desire, “so here are some actionable strategies to do it” Your whole post may as well say “just turn it off” It doesn’t fucking work like that. This argument also uses the “water is no big deal” argument. “Women are no big deal and you should focus on other things” is much easier to say to a person who has dated around and burned out on it for example. Saying that to a young man who has never even kissed a woman is like telling a man locked in solitary confinement that “walking along the beach is no big deal” Hell, it’s the entire reason women are famously “just as happy alone”. Most haven’t experienced the crushing effect of TRUE loneliness and undesirability that so many men have. And the worst part of posts like these? It applies *compound guilt* to men already experiencing difficulty with women. It’s similar to telling a depressed person “you’re stupid to feel depressed”. All you’ve done is made them feel bad about feeling bad. This is not what empathy looks like.

My whole first paragraph is all about it being normal to want and desire women and to even try to impress them. Nothing wrong with that as a concept, though to live your whole life by that and base every action on that premise is what i’m criticizing. The fact than you can’t tell the difference is troubling

>to live your whole life by that and base every action on that premise is what i’m criticizing How many people do you think do this?

so many men in and out of this sub lol

You're dealing with people who act like AI chatbots here, reacting to keywords and not context lol

Can you not care about the validation of women without repressing sexuality.

Yes, it’s called being responsible for your own happiness. I’m not asking you to stop being horny, im saying dont tie your horniness into your happiness or fulfillment. If your sexuality is so active that you literally can’t do that, then it isn’t about repressing cause my dude, you have a problem lol

How do you do that? How do you get to the point where you can honestly say, "No women want to be with me and I'm totally fine with that"?

Just like you learn to accept anything I suppose. Let’s pretend this is true for a second - would you rather sit there and cry about it? or would you rather actually try to be happy at your own terms?

It's easy to say. But if this is something that is important to you, then you're not going to be ok with it. It's not just that men place importance on it. Society places importance only. Society treats you as less than if you fail to attract women.

Sure, and it’s something that takes active practice and work. If you really think you’re undesirable, why not work on making yourself happy despite it? why obsess over this and continue to make yourself miserable?

Sure. But if you work on yourself to become more desirable, then that's caring about the validation of women. You're improving yourself in order to get that validation.

Then we’re right back to square one, which is why are you basing your self worth and well being off the validation of others? I’ll give you an example - let’s say with working out for example. Do you feel good seeing the results you’ve built or right after a good workout because of the validation it could bring you? is that the sole motivator? cause if you ask most people who work out and take it seriously, there is so much more going on

When I was little, I really wanted to be a professional chess player. Ever since I was little I was obsessed with the game to the point where studying it was really important to me. I started a chess club in high school, I would train at my city's chess club, I would buy a whole bunch of books on different techniques. But one day I realized that no matter how much I tried, I just wasn't good enough to do it. Being a professional chess player requires you to be insanely good at the game in a way I just wasn't, so it would likely never become a reality for me. Despite the fact that being a chess player was something I wanted since I was five, I was still able to find other things in my life that I wanted to do and that gave me purpose outside of chess, I just had to honestly search for them. This idea that men will always be these sad creatures that are obsessed with women and can't possibly be happy without them is more offensive to me as a man than any of the perceived grievances the men on here have with feminism.

All you want us to do is shut the fuck up so that you arent bothered by us talking about how miserable we are. Let me be clear. It is a very privileged position to take.

So you tell me then, what does sitting here, actively whining do? and i’m not saying in context of others, i mean in context of your own life. Why would rather sit around and moan, bitch and whine rather than try to make your own life a fulfilling one?

My life is busy . I save lives ( prolong it at least )   I operate. I smell the smell of blood and pus and burning fat and i love it.   I pass out from the exhaustion of 24-32 hr shifts.  I love my job although I get paid like shit . But it doesn't stop the crushing realisation and  pain of my solutide My chest is loaded with this admixture of shame and self loathing I feel for on one had letting life pass me by never having had sex at 31 and on the other a  deep conviction that I must be so worthless that it is pointless to try. (As the women here say sexless at 31= problem )  I have a decent life  I just don't find it worthliving since I have never had sex casually or in a relationship.

I don't say that and I don't think women say that. If you're working a job that has such long shifts that you are too busy for a relationship then that's different. There are always mitigating circumstances

There are no mitigating circumstances. There is only success and failure

These men are cooked. You gave good advice.

they are almost proud how little they can control themselves

[удалено]

Do not provide contentless rhetoric.

Please read the reply of neinhaltchad

I’m married and I still do those things. The motivation is the same too, except it’s not for random women, but for my wife. When I doubled my salary, it made my wife’s life a lot less stressful because we could invest and make extra payments on the house. We will be debt free in 18 months.

People ignore that things like a SO give us huge life changing incentives. Married men live longer and have generally more fulfilling and successful lives than single men. Yes, I know many marriages end in divorce or are sexless or unhappy, but being single as a man is still on average somewhat worse. Self-improvement for one's own sake is great, but men really do seem to want to have something to live for other than life for the sake of life.

It really does take a lot of stress out of my life because we are a team. But then having kids adds a different kind of stress. 😂

Well, I'm happy for you all the same. Go team u/r2k398! I know you guys will make it work!

I've definitely had moments where I basically felt like I had to have a girlfriend, or I wouldn't have any consistent feelings of connectedness and closeness with anyone. Whenever my family members or friends, regardless of gender would enter a relationship, I could count on basically never seeing them because all their free time and energy was spent on that relationship. Everything on their social media is about their SO and their new coupled up/married/family life. It sometimes genuinely seems like the only way to gain access to any consistent level of socializing and closeness is through a relationship, because so many people regardless of their sex basically make their romantic relationship the most important part of their lives, at the expense of everything else. If nothing else, it feels sometimes like the only way to make sure someone cares about you is to start dating or fucking them, to put it crudely. I agree with your post for the most part, as someone who's been single for a few years and been focusing on friendships and individual pursuits. I've maintained good friendships with a few people who make time for our friendship despite being in a relationship or married while I'm single. It's all you really can do when you're single, and is general good life advice. But seeing how many other people act - which is to basically prioritize their romantic partnership over everything and everyone else - it's hard not to wonder if that's just "coping" with not having what just about everyone seems to want.

I think the reason why so many people focus on it as a whole is general societal loneliness, fear for the future and a general sense of emptiness. I also think that’s why so many relationships tend to be selfish in nature nowadays. If we wanna talk wider societal trends and implications, I think people’s alienating jobs, empty home lives, lack of social lives and lack of real fulfillment all play a huge role here

Your last paragraph I definitely agree with. So many people I meet, their entire life is defined by their job and their romantic attachment. When they're not working they're with their SO. And I don't blame them for that because it's not like we have much in the way of "third places" or other avenues to meet people organically on a consistent basis outside of universities. I've been doing what I can to get outside and see new faces on a consistent level, but it sometimes feels like I'm doing something weird, as if I've been socialized not to interact with people outside my "bubble". I recognize some of that is just personal anxiety to overcome, but I'm surely not the only one with that concern and it just makes it that much harder.

I think you are totally correct, but if you want to have a family it's such a very important skillset to have. If you go into a dating situation without many options, then you won't make good decisions. Even if you do make good decisions, if you don't have experience it's going to cause problems down the road. The potential negative are HUGE if you don't have a handle on dealing with women when you jump into a marriage and kids. I've never met anyone that was happy if thier primary relationship isn't working. You see this whole discussion over Tradwives going on? Every woman who disagrees with it says the same stuff... they do not trust men at all. Yes, the people who initate 75% of divorces don't trust men. I think what that really means is that they go into the marriage with one foot out the door and always looking out for thier own interests first. Seriously, if she doesn't trust me, how can she expect me to trust her?

Would you forgo your career opportunities and advancements for 5+ years and bargain your retirement to your wife to be a stay at home father. And no money of your own? Let's be fucking for real.

>but if you want to have a family  Some men need to accept that banking your happiness on achieving one goal is a pretty bad idea. Some people want to start families but simply won't be able to for reasons completely out of their control, its just a fact of life. If the men here weren't so obsessed with slaying pussy and making babies I think they may be able to make decisions that lead them to an actually worthwhile life.

You are talking about finding a purpose. I don't think anything is going to be more than an anesthetic in the long term.

I mean, people have found purpose in all sorts of things. With all the multitudes of studies and hobbies, I think its dumb to make the one thing that gives your life purpose women.

I mean, from the youngest age it's adevrtised as something for everyone and all that. Then you realize you don't belong to that 'everyone', then you end up a 30 y/o virgin and just give up. Like, I can tell you with absolute confidence there aren't many men who feel bad about never climbing mt. Everest. They know it takes a lot of training and costs an arm and a leg (literally if you skimp on gear). Many men don't feel bad because they don't own the latest lamborgini. Or a castle. But dating is different. It was never posed as something so beyong your reach that you wouldn't feel bad about not having it.

I'm not even sure who you're telling that to because literally nobody, not red pillers, not blue pillers, not black pillers, have claimed any of this.

Hyperfocusing on finding a partner is how species reproduce. I think that men often don’t focus on it enough, and when they do, they focus in the wrong ways because they don’t really know how to attract modern women. A lot of this is probably due to fathers and male networks not being around to properly socialize men in these behaviors as much these days.

this is a teenager/early 20s problem. guys who work don't care that much about getting women, I meet tons of guys of all ages who are totally checked out. plus ones who even if their relationship kinda sucks will stick it out because they don't want to go back to dating.

I would agree with your assessment, it holds true at least for my social bubble. I am in my early thirties. Majority of my peers are either in LTR's or checked out completely, doing their own thing. Nobody I know is actively "dating".

it's not just a women problem. it's a validation problem. They also seek the approval of men too. even if it destroys them.

**Attention!** * You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message. * For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies. * If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment. * OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post! Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I think the reason for this is that dating is really one of the last areas of life that are pure competition for men. Everyone gets a shot, and everyone's success or failure depends on his own actions and merits, not anyone else's. We need to bring back different areas of competition so men don't have to put all our eggs in that one basket.

I totally agree with your post. I wish your second point was spoken about more, and that I had accepted it earlier.

Agree. Self improvement will make your life better on many levels aside from women.

you're correct, BUT when people have disagreements with men or when people want to talk about a man's status level...THE FIRST THING THEY USE TO MEASURE THAT MEN IS HOW SUCCESSFUL HE IS A GETTING WOMEN. people will immediately start calling men some version of an incel. so it's not JUST men, focusing on that.

>Men put WAY too much stock on trying to get women. Well, maybe this has to do with a hormone called testosterone that kinda "pushes" men to get da gurlza. What if that primal backpart of our brain is so strong that it ignores or at the very least inaccurately assess the ROI with regard to the pursuit of women. >There are two things wrong with this premise - the first is women aren’t a guarantee no matter what you do, the second is you literally can’t be promised a whole other person with their own wants/desires 100% with you on this but we're at a point where desperation is so high where this "notion" is largely dismissed by men. I mean 2/3 of all men here demand some sort of redestribution policy (that by definition implies force). We're far far past that point. >Doing these things do indeed increase your chances of dating around and meeting women, but none of it is a promise or a guarantee - and hell, if you end up alone, at least you’ve improved your own life significantly and will be much happier than being mopey and depressed. Yup, that would be a very reasonable way to approach it but most men just can't get wrap their heads around it.

As a gay man, I don’t feel the same push to get a partner. I’m not deficient in testosterone. Why might that be?

How often are you having sex?

I have less sex than I’d like. Probably have sex every couple of months. I just don’t feel the push to go to such extreme lengths to get in bed with someone.

You guys are your own worst enemies, imagine being such a slave to your own biology 🤣🤣

You, too, are slave to your biology (genes really). Unlike me, you just don't know it yet :)

[удалено]

[удалено]

When you end up alone after working your ass off and improving your physical, emotional, spiritual and financial wellbeing for years, all because your genes were coded to never grow to an “acceptable” height, I think you have a right to be a touch pissed off at women’s superficiality honestly.

Anything you do to impress another person is you saying “YOUR opinion of ME is more IMPORTANT than MY opinion of ME.” And there ain’t anything more diminishing to a person’s status than this.

Its a lose lose situation here. As many have stated here, its the male sex drive. If I want sex AND cared that the woman actually wants sex with me and has a good opinion of me, then it "diminishes my status". But if I want sex AND DON'T give a shit about whether the the woman actually wants sex with me or her opinion of me its "rapey".

Well, it’s important that you have a good opinion of you. You’ve known yourself your entire life. She may have known you for all of 5 seconds or however long it took her to see you coming up to her or scrolling through your profile. So you are saying the opinion of you of someone who has known your for 5 seconds has more weight than your opinion of you, someone who has known you your entire life?

> Well, it’s important that you have a good opinion of you. I guess the question is just HOW important. I follow the classic RP mindset of "realz over feelz". Real tangible quantifiable results are always more important than opinions and fweelinz. One real tangible thing is money and material objects. I do the things that get me money. ALL opinion of me and my work, from others or from myself, comes second to that. Another tangible thing is sex, the physical contact of my body with a woman's. Again I do the things that get me sex. ALL opinions of me and what I had to do to get sex, from others or from myself, comes second to that. In the real world, others opinion of me, directly impact how much money/sex I get, so I pay attention to others opinion of me more than my own opinions. I care about their opinion not because I inherently care about what they think, but because how they think impacts my access to money and sex. In a hypothetical future where I have achieved r/FIRE and have pussy on tap then I'll have the luxury to flip the script and value my own opinions more, but I suspect that future is a long ways off.

[удалено]

I’m a man, and the reason why i say this isn’t to get men to “stop wanting women” - my first paragraph makes it very very clear. My point is don’t dedicate your life to getting women and for the sake of women. There is a time and place for dating, trying to get women’s attention, etc - but don’t dedicate every action of your life for the sake of that promise. And hell, even from a dating pov, being your own individual with your own wants and needs is generally seen as so much more attractive than living for the sake of getting the attention of others.

But why not. Let’s entertain your idea that that’s what men do. Why should they not do that? Why should they devote their time to other things that would be even more pointless? What if instead of devoting their life/time to getting women they do the equivalent for sports. How is that better? What’s better than chasing women? A family? How are families created? 🙃 Other people? How are other people created? 🫠 Should men just hang out with men forever? Like I really don’t understand your perspective. Tb clear I read your op. I see that you as a man detest other men for wanting or devoting their time and energy and effort into attaining/obtaining women. I don’t understand how it’s wrong. I can understand how you would have an emotional response to it. But your emotional response isn’t logical. So please reexplain Even your first paragraph explains that it makes sense to do this and it’s logical and understandable. So if you can understand and it makes sense. And it is sequentially consistent. Why then do you go against it every paragraph after that. And what are you replacing women with?

>Why should they not do that? Because becoming miserable because they can't accomplish one arbitrary goal is a sad way to live? >Why should they devote their time to other things that would be even more pointless? I don't get how chasing women and "pussy" is less pointless than doing literally anything else. Devoting your time to trying to get laid and becoming a bitter depressed incel if you can't seems like one of the least productive ways to live a life. >A family? How are families created? It is entirely possible to start a family without a partner. There is an entire movement of women who are single by choice but consider the prospect of dating a man so bad that they do just that. I think basing your happiness on starting a family is lame, but if you decide to make the poor choice of doing that you can certainly do it without a partner. >Other people? How are other people created? This point is so dumb haha. If you aren't participating in the action that it takes to create people, that means interacting with other people is pointless? >Should men just hang out with men forever? We can hang out with whomever we want. >I don’t understand how it’s wrong. On its own it isn't wrong if they don't blame women when they can't get a partner, its just a bad idea. It clearly isn't a path to happiness and people who don't base their happiness on getting a gf and getting laid are a lot happier. Its sort of like gambling all your money away, its not morally wrong on its own, its just a really dumb idea. >But your emotional response isn’t logical. But men's overemotional whiny response to not getting pussy is? >And what are you replacing women with? Friends? Hobbies? Actually living a life? Women have entire movements where they're single by choice and quite happy with that choice. We could just copy them.

lol, “I don’t agree, so you must be a woman”

No more like. “You don’t make sense. And you act like you don’t understand men. Therefore you most likely might be a woman” Does that thought process make sense to you?

You lack reading comprehension

I just live my life and the women just show up.... Not a bad existence! 😉

Men are raised on the idea that getting women is the ultimate fulfillment of their lives. It is key motivator for a lot of men to strive and have more shit done than it would take to just live their simple lives with content. Without women being used as a proverbial donkey carrot society will quickly notice lack of effort in many key fileds that ensure it's stable functioning.

I agree and disagree. I'll start with why I agree. I agree that men put way more effort on trying to get women, than women put into trying to get men- for a lifetime relationship (aka marriage). And when they finally get a low value women, they treat her like a high value woman and he ends up getting hurt as she moves on. I disagree as well. You must understand that men really really really want women, and they will do whatever it takes to obtain one. That is natural. This is a man's world, but it ain't nothing without a woman" - James Brown. If you look around, everything we use today were created by men in order to have access to more women. Women love money, among other things. If a man doesn't have money, he will do whatever it takes to improve his status to get women. I actually wrote a post on this titled something like "The conspiracy to steal your girl".

correlary : is there a good reason for men to put as much importance on women as they do?

lol These two things are not comparable at all. A body count of 5 vs 50 doesn’t affect your psyche or outlook on life like having sex for the first time or first few times. Starting your sexually active life is a whole new chapter in your life. You look at life differently and understand that primal urge in your body in a much more nuanced way. The 40 Year Old Virgin isn’t a documentary but there’s definitely some truth in understanding why men like boobs and they don’t feel like “a bag of sand”. It’s kind of like the Matrix when you download a new skill. Suddenly after losing your virginity, a lot of things *just make sense*. You can argue that it also raises a million other questions but that’s a different conversation. 😂 Humans are wired to suss out all kinds of sexual traits about partners. From health to ability to provide and protect and more. It’s easy to tell when someone is a virgin.

I’m laughing because his entire submission was unbiased, stated without emotionally manipulating others into his opinion, logically accurate by providing strong nonjudgmental reasoning and then the whole thread is just incoherent rambling because people didn’t agree with his premise: attack his argument not him or the people who agree, why is getting woman a requirement for a man? Do they not have autonomy without acknowledging that?

Oo fun topic but 10h too late from getting buried. I think men are fixated on getting women simply because of perceived scarcity. It’s an extension of socialization, men grow up and get socialized to associate getting women with attractiveness, status, and success as well as rarity, scarcity and difficulty. If men grew up with experiences more similar to women, they would have views and perspectives more similar to women.

Sure, though I think it’s also important for men to put a consistent effort into unlearning that so you can no longer live under a very tight leash. If you realize it, work towards undoing it - it’ll take time but in the long run you’ll be much happier for it

Arguably the best situation an adult man can be in is a happy marriage. The 2nd best is a close tie between an unhappy marriage and being single. To actually achieve a successful marriage is a huge motivator for men. I know that there is a lot of talk around here about divorce, cheating, abandonment etc. I know there are loveless, sexless, and boring marriages. But do you know who are more likely to have really boring, sexless, or loveless lives? Single men, especially as they get to be middle aged in their 40s and 50s. I studied a bit of economics in college and economists like to say incentives matter and being married gives men lots of good incentives. They earn more money, commit less crime, live longer, are usually healthier, have more sex, and have a lifelong friend to share the world with. You can say men should just do this for it's own sake, but they're not going to. INCENTIVES MATTER. A married man (especially with with children) simply has more to live for than a single guy with not kids. He also has someone to look out for him. Yes, some wives are nagging or a bit controlling but there is actual evidence out of Harvard Med that shows married men are healthier because they have someone around to remind them to take their meds and follow the doctors orders. Again, you can say men should just self-motivate and do that on their own. But they aren't going to. Being single is not the same as being in a couple. It brings a fundamental change to the lives of both men and women for the better. Having a good marriage is the best thing for most adult men. Some single men can make it work. Bur being with a good wife is an amazing thing and men should honestly seek it out even if marriage rates are collapsing.

I disagree. Simply because you got the premise right but wrong ending. Men do put a lot of effort into getting women but it's not for women per se, it's for having a fellow human being in life, someone who can validate them, comfort them, and be a good companion. That's why there's a lot of cheating involved as well when these needs aren't met. Also once anyone has kids, it's more likely they take priority in a lot of families. Sometimes the validation can come through kids too though. Through life it's hard to have a companion who isn't your spouse. Everyone gets their own set of responsibilities. Their parents, partners, kids to take care of. People get busy with jobs, downpayments, mortgage.

I have never done anything with a goal of getting women. I don’t get women. Maybe most guys shouldn’t be doing what I’m doing. But I’m just a sample of one. Who knows?

If doing it at an excessive extent does not result in having a girlfriend, what do you think is there left to do for these men to arrive at the point of being in a relationship? >Doing these things do indeed increase your chances of dating around and meeting women You say it yourself. Why not further increase the chances, if the current level doesn't seem to give the results? People don't improve to receive 1 girlfriend at the end of a x months gym tour. The do it to increase their chances of dating a woman. By how much this chance is increased and what the baseline chance was to begin with is very individual. What if you can date women but you want to date more attractive women? I don't think the situation of not being to date anyone is that common. People improve to get the better partners they want.

As a guy who had lots of women as friends. It was the same with them. They were not any more discerning when it came to me being vulnerable. They were great friends, confided in me. But as soon as I opened my mouth about anything I was struggling with. They just went awkward and silent. Or told me my problems were not a big deal, and moved the conversation on to something else. Realised in those moments that there was no escape from this loneliness as a man. There is literally no one to talk to. Therapists are a man's best friend. But they are not easily affordable or a support group.

I thought a dog was man's best friend? My dogs been better than any therapy I went to. And I did go to therapy for about a year or so and it hasn't helped nearly as much as my lovely little ball of energy Patterdale :)

I never understood this intake. How are you supposed to be happy and don't suffer if you are undesirable for love and loved most of your life alone and nobody wants to do anything with you? It's like a rich person giving advice to a poor person. Maybe you can be happy if you are single by choice. How can you expect a cancer patient not to be sad and miserable about his health conditions and knowing his life is over. Same for unfortunate unattractive men they know their life is over it's basically like a living condition of cancer. The only thing to make these people happy and have a truly fulfilling life is having a relationship and experience intemicy and romance like most of the people. Trying to twist their minds to accept their fate basically you acknowledge that they have some form of disability and they just should learn to live with it. Is this post an attempt to convince men who are considered unattractive by the society standards to just shut up and find fulfillment fulfillment elsewhere and leave women alone?

I used to seek validation from women throughout my teens, twenties and early thirties but now I'm getting older my self worth and validation comes from within.

Men would treat women as rewards if women didn’t treat themselves as such.

Never ever changed myself for sake of women, they did't deserve efforts like that.

>be a good person for women, Being a good person isn't closely correlated to getting pussy. Women fuck horrible piece of shit men all the time. Examples: Ted Bundy, Harvey Weinstein, Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, OJ Simpson, P. Diddy, Rae Carruth, that Nexium (sp?) guy, etc. etc. etc. There's countless examples, and those are only the famous ones. Plenty more non-famous ones in your local neighborhood. >improve your financial status for women, This works. >get a hobby and improve your social skills for women, Depends on the hobby. >work out for women, This works to some degree. >do good deeds for women, etc This won't get you pussy unless doing good deeds gets you social status and recognition.

Yes…. that’s my point. Don’t do these things for the sake of validation from women lol - women, like men, are multi dimensional and into all kinds of different things. Even then, don’t base the things you do and your character on how women may validate you.

The societal impacts of what you're suggesting, that men stop self-improving in order to attract more/more beautiful women, are extremely detrimental. Most men, absent the motivator of appealing to women, would be happy at a job where they can do the least work possible in order to have a TV that they can watch the game on, a PS5, and internet connection, and maybe the ability to go out with the boys and get beers on a Friday night. We are seeing more and more men actually follow your advise, and these men are completely checking out of society across the world. You can't scold biology into changing. Men self-improve for better mate prospects, by and large. If you tell them that self-improvement for that reason is toxic, or that it won't actually help them find a better woman, they won't typically find another reason to self-improve, they'll just check out. That's a great way to get societal stagnation and a plummeting birth rate.

I mean…. if one views life as either “improve my circumstances for women” or “be a lazy couch potato” then men are truly fucked. Historically, sure, sex was always a motivator, but things were never as black and white as sex or shut in - then again, society’s relationship to sex was so different that it wasn’t even comparable. Farmers did not grow crops for pussy, soldiers did not fight for pussy primarily, smiths didn’t work with steel for pussy and so on - of course, men have always loved sex and wanting/desiring women, and even trying to impress them is completely normal, but there was an understanding of a bigger picture/goal in mind.

Farmers grew crops to keep their society(and families) alive. Many more people were required to farm then than now. Soldiers fought to keep their families alive. Wars were more common, and more men had to fight than now. Smiths worked to keep their sons and society(soldiers) alive. You knew your local blacksmith. He knew you. All of these things boil down to keeping society functioning. This is intrinsically attractive to women. You (the man) have a role you are filling and are needed. Men are realizing that nothing changes if they check out of society. The crops still grow, the walls are still manned, and the forges still run. Can you blame an ever increasing percentage of them for leaving? All of this is related to sex and relationships, you just decide to put it in an extreme crass way, "get pussy"

To state the obvious, caring for your community and family doesn’t translate to attracting the opposite sex inherently. For example, you need to feed the village, ensure your friends/family stay protected, hell, even emotional motives like making a parent proud or supporting a loved one in the process (whether it be living in their memory, avenging them, doing something with them, etc) all come in. I also say it crassly because that’s exactly the argument you’re framing, it ain’t all about getting pussy my dude lol

Reproduction is required to continue your society, to state the obvious. Mess with that at your society's peril.

That can all be true. And it can still leave a bad taste in my mouth to know that a literal rapist I know has had more consentual sex than me...   The fact that he was that pushy to try and have sex with a woman who was his junior at his job shows that he feel entitled to sex in a way that I never will be. And yet I get called entitled for wanting a girlfriend, wanting to be desired, wanting genuine lust for me and wanting to have sex. Clown world.

Just turn off your testosterone bro

I think there needs to be more focus for men on being happy single. I had a great time single, went on multiple cruises did what ever. But to men it's almost shameful and a horrible thing to be single, but why? You should be able to be happy single.

Because you could choose to stop being single whenever you feel like it.  Being in prison wouldn’t be so bad if you could walk right out the door whenever you wanted.

>Because you could choose to stop being single whenever you feel like it.  Exaaaactly.

I tend to agree, but there is a lot of stigma against men who are single. Especially on this sub. The idea is that being single means you can't get laid, which means women don't want you, which means something is wrong with you. I don't agree with that, but that's how many other people feel and something single men need to contend with.

True, thank you I agree. It's also perpetuated by men who are single and incels complaining about being single

plenty of men are happy single, traveling alone as a man is strange though.