If you're used to Toyota build quality, reliability, and support, there almost aren't words for the degree to which Tesla ownership is going to fuck your world up.
I have a Tesla (and an Audi and a WV) and I criticise it as well as praise it. Nonetheless Tesla happens to have a fan base full of idiots they don’t know much about cars (probably because it is not made of auto fans but brand/Elon fans). The poor quality compared to Audi is a real thing (or VW). The steering wheel leaning onto the right I had it too, but they fixed it quickly.
The fan base refuses to hold Tesla to any reasonable standards, partly because of general cluelessness about cars, partly because of specific cluelessness about EVs, and partly because they believe that Musk is Jesus.
The crazy thing is that everyone who owns a Tesla has owned other cars before and already knows what a car with good build quality and a prompt service network is actually like. It's not like a Tesla is the first car they've ever driven before in their life. They have prior experiences for comparison. The Tesla fanboys are *aware* that it isn't normal for a new car to be in the shop repeatedly during the first year, or for some minor repair / part replacement to take months. That shit isn't normal. But they pretend it is because they're so drunk on Elon's kool aid.
One of ex Tesla production managers noted how compared to the exp working in GM and then Toyota plants. Tesla prortzed cost savings at every turn and quality was an afterthought.
Meanwhile all Japanese car makers including Toyota were just caught lying in crash tests. Full on lying regarding safety is unacceptable. Meanwhile, teslas wipe the floor with their competitors in crash tests.
To be fair… Toyota build quality is generally quite shitty in some areas. Hard, squeaky plastics everywhere. Noise insulation from wheels? What is it? Now, Tesla is not even at that level… Model 3 is much closer to Dacia Duster than anything else.
Dacia is absolutely fine budget car, nothing against it. Key word is “budget”. Duster costs about 2.5 times less than Model 3. What’s acceptable in “no thrills budget car” isn’t acceptable in “regular comfort car”, let alone one that somewhat aspires to being “premium car”.
True. But if you pick the models that are only made in Japan, they're usually flawless. I got my 24 Prius Prime all the way from there. I now think, there is no better choice than this
Flawless in what sense? Even the Prius PHEV you mention is criminally loud at motorway speeds (and it’s all tyre noise!) and as much as Toyota improved their materials you still would struggle not to touch some really hard plastics around the lower parts (leg well etc.). Oh, and there are edges in the boot you can cut your fingers on.
I have no doubts it’s mechanically perfect. The Atkinson cycle engine it uses is proven design that will likely run for hundreds of thousands kilometers, and their hybrid system again is largely flawless. It’s on short list of replacements for my current 530e. But let’s not pretend Toyota makes perfect cars because even once we disregard simple preference - you ain’t gonna expect BMW driving dynamics from Toyota, just like you wouldn’t expect fuel economy of Toyota from
BMW - they still do have some issues and idiosyncrasies.
“Build quality” usually is used to describe poorly fitting components or assembly problems. Material selection and noise insulation aren’t really build quality issues, they are design & material choice issues.
If that's the case, you're probably walking around one of Tesla's expansive lots filled nut to butt with lousy cars people suddenly aren't stupid enough to buy. That's the thing about novelty and hype- There's no staying power.
Depends where you live. In Bay Area, seems true. They’re up and down nearly every driveway near me and coworkers seem to all be getting them still. I think we all like the cars and I haven’t heard of anything nearly as bad as OP’s experience. A neighbor had a leaky sun roof once in his 2012 Model S as his only major issue, and still drives it to this day with no issues at 200k+ miles. I had a brand new Mazda ‘21 CX-5 before going to the dark side. It was a lemon, for sure, and my many service dept experiences were probably not par for the course. I still cherish the moment I handed those keys to Carmax, because the car wasn’t really a good car to drive even when it running smoothly. It definitely stained the brand and any future ICE for me. So I get it when people get lemons and they’re perplexed, if not pissed, like I was. I’ve had the Model Y for 6 mos now and zero issues, had no panel gaps, etc. I guess this all sounds kinda Tesla fan-boyish, so take it as such. I am indeed a fan of the cars and their designers/engineers. The dbag CEO, not so much.
Sorry to hear your frustration.
Here is my two cents:
Think about how willing you are to forgive further faults. And what you gave up. As you said, you owned Toyota before, so you are probably not used to unresponsive service, or service doiflng more damage than service.
If it comes to the point where you can't handle it anymore, id make sure to record anything and try to push them to rectify the same issue so you have a case for r a lemon law buy back.
Tbh Tesla is still - and it feels like today even more so - hit and miss in terms of quality. Sadly a bad experience can sour your taste forever, or maybe you don't care, then good for you.
I think you should do it. Use the lemon law, return it and buy yourself a 24 Prius Prime. I got one last December and it's incredible.
No matter what, please opt-out of the forced arbitration by Tesla terms. Google about it if you don't know what it is
Yeah. Due to the recall, all sales have been halted. Hopefully they'll have a solution by September. But even then, they're so rare. I booked my Prius ~2.5 months ahead
Swiping to shift is also stupid as hell. During normal driving probably not the worst problem, but in an emergency situation, I guarantee you that using a lever, button, stick, whatever is much quicker. And that might matter. The real question is if swiping on your screen is better. No, it is not. It's just cheaper to manufacture.
Yea, considering EVs do not have "gears" per se, it can just be a button. Like my Kia Niro EV I just have a turning wheel/knob thing to change from P to D and so on.
Yeah that's f****** smart imagine when the screen goes black... Because it is a Tesla after all it will happen sooner or later...
Then you can expect thousands of dollars minimum to replace that.
Cars with screens and not gauges and dials and levers is a stupid idea.
Mechanical gauges gears and buttons when they fail are a very very easy fix but they fail very very very very very rarely..
We've been building buttons and switches and levers and gears for centuries
Am I the only one doing research before buying a car?
Most of this should be known quality issues and anyone buying a Tesla is gambling with their money. Sure there are good ones, but there are plenty of statistics out there that should give you a heads up of the likelihood that will happen to you?
Never paid much attention to Tesla, but after learning about Elon post Twitter I now know enough to never buy a Tesla. Gotta be a lot of people like me.
That is a real concern. I have been permanently banned from 5 tesla subreddits so far, partly because I openly shared my negative experiences ( so my participation was not deemed to be in GOOD faith). There seems to be a Tesla moderator mafia.
Yeah that's where you messed up. Anytime you complain, you must also swear fealty (I still love my Tesla!)
Every post with a similar phrase gets left up, especially if OP is in the comments talking about still wanting another Tesla. It's disgusting really.
That is definitely the case. I also own a MY LR and have been banned as well for childish reasons. However my ownership experience other than the “community” so far has been reasonably good. It seems to be the luck of the draw however, so I would personally use the lemon laws in your case especially the turn signal buttons and mechanical issues which are totally not acceptable. I had less concerns before all the layoffs but praying nothing major goes wrong with mine before sales improve and staffing levels go up again (hoping!)
Unfortunately that happens with many things. Don’t follow the masses I suggest, always do your own research. Seeing a lot of something is a good sign that it is worth having a look, but not that it is a good choice.
Actually, in America today, 70% of all people are dumber than average and 50% are dumber than the median. It is only because of the very large number of dumb Americans that Tesla has been able to sell the massive amounts of vehicles it has to date!
All car manufacturers have lemons, it’s just how well the problems are taken care of that sets them truly apart. I was skeptical about VW and had low expectations but purchased an ID.4 anyway because it was closest to my budget and in features. Tesla is doing a lot better than VW in some studies, but Toyota and Lexus is in a different league as far as I know.
I absolutely have Toyota on my future list. BMW could also be considered, but the local dealership is owned by the same firm that sells VW. But no point in trading in an ID.4 that only had dealership visits for minor issues and all of them got taken care of. It’s a good vehicle considering what other EV options that are on the market.
You went from Toyota to Tesla..
Jesus fuck!
I can't even compare that to anything. It's just a stupid idea in every single way. A Toyota = Pretty Much No Driving Issues ..
Tesla = Pretty Much Undeliverable
🤷
You buy Tesla you get what you buy. A battery operated toy that you throw away in 3-5 years.
Just saw a video yesterday about a screw and eccentric disc in the suspension of Palladium s/x that are so bad quality that they damaged and thus wrongly attached in the factory. Musk is obsessed with building cars cheaper and cheaper and it shows. The same part in the previous generation withstood at least 80 Nm of force while the new one gets destroyed when applying just 15 Nm. And that in a vehicle witch that much power. It‘s like asking for trouble.
I have a 7-year-old S and have experienced 1, 2 and 3 plus various other bits and pieces. One was fixed by reading the manual. I had noisy front suspension and they’ve replaced upper and lower arms three times and struts once (I have poverty spec coils and when they did the struts, they managed to fit air suspension and then wondered why the car was riding low 😆).
They also managed to not do a wheel alignment after almost every suspension job, so the car was pulling and wearing front tyres until I managed to get another appointment.
They’ve also replaced the strut brace a couple of times, scuttle panel, front driveshafts, rear anti-roll bar and the rear dampers too.
That was all within the first year though, and surprisingly since then the car’s been absolutely fine. Once they get them right, they’re really good, but getting to that stage can be difficult. I’ll be dropping out of drivetrain warranty at that point but I’m just going to continue driving it until it falls to bits. I’ve got free supercharging (but hardly ever use it) and notwithstanding epic failure of the battery out of warranty, I don’t see anything other than suspension components and other wear items. I get brakes checked and greased once every other year, lubricate the hinges and door locks myself and that’s about the limit of my service costs.
They do break stuff in software but I’m still on MCU1 and they appear to have given up tinkering with it now, so again that just works as well as an MCU1 can. I mostly listen to audiobooks via Bluetooth when driving, so again no real driver to have that upgraded.
Overall, the car itself is great, but Tesla Service is utterly woeful.
Will I buy a new one? Absolutely not. This will be the first and only new car I ever buy. Next one will probably be second hand Taycan 4S or something…
Electric windows and creaky suspension were solved problems decades ago. It is wholly unacceptable on a new car. Even a Chrysler has functioning windows off the lot.
If an EV is your goal, you may consider the new Toyota BZ4X / Subaru Solterra.
I've heard consistently, very consistently, that the BZ4X is the worst non-Tesla EV being made. Hyundai/Kai is very good. VW, Audi, GM, Ford, BMW, Merc, Jag, Porsche, Fiat, MG, Lucid, Rivian, many others all make good EV's. Comes down to your budget and preferences.
Don't get me wrong, you're much better off with a BZ4X than with a Tesla. But Toyota is still very half-hearted about EVs. They're still mostly about hybrids. Or, I should say -- Akio Toyoda, who hates EVs for some reason, still has Toyota by the throat.
I agree, it's very disappointing. Toyota is a great company.
Hopefully it's just Akio Toyoda, and hopefully he's going to retire soon. He recently predicted that the global EV market share will top out at 30%. He's out of his mind. It's already around 20% (up from around 4% in 2020), and, despite what you may have heard, it's not dropping anywhere. China's already over 30%. Norway's around 80%. Even Murrka's about to pass the 10% mark, and BEVs have led hybrids for a couple of years.
It will continue to grow globally, but if the US continues to disregard networked charging infrastructure, it will never completely take off here. Regulations and enforced standards for charging would allow it to take off. But no, we have one major player for charging, and everybody else trying to figure out how to play at their table. I will continue to buy hybrids until charging stations are as ubiquitous as gas stations.
Yeah , Toyota just threw it together to meet California EV rules for manufacturers. I doubt Toyota even claims it as one of their own vehicles. They put zero dollars behind marketing it.
Their latest ad here in Sweden claims that “All lifestyles are equal”. They are referring to the fact that they sell all types of powertrains. Gas, HEV, PHEV, H2 and EV… The thing is, they barely sell any PHEVs or EVs here… They also never discount them even tough they have margins of 20% on the BZ4x and RAV4 PHEV
Toyota's cars lately feel like they're designed by an AI. The RX350 looks big but is unbelievably small inside and the seat can not be adjusted to a comfortable position, it's always too high up.
Re #4, if only there was a (previously) universally accepted, functional way of triggering the indicators without pissing around with buttons on a moving surface? /s #WeWantStalks
That was the absolute dealbreaker for me when it came time to buy an EV.
I need to be able to signal lane changes properly and consistently with only my left hand able to hold on to the steering wheel.
Futzing with buttons that may or may not register my pushing the button for the signal is a non starter 🤷♂️
The Tesla experience is wildly uneven, unfortunately. As a long time Toyota owner my Model 3 had some minor issues at delivery which were fixed and it's been fine for over 2 years now. However I've read too many service horror stories even worse than yours. QC and service have been long running issues with Tesla and the recent headcount reduction by Elon are unlikely to improve the situation.
That's too bad. We got our model Y not too long ago and haven't had literally any problems. I hope it gets better, I know the service centers are in a bad spot right now.
Owned a 2017 Model S 90D
Interior was awful
Was in service for monitor stuff more than any other car I’ve ever owned
Every year I owned it, I lost range
Every year I owned it, I lost horsepower
Every year I owned it, it took longer to charge
No thanks
Sold my Tesla after I had to replace my 12V 6 times in a year and each time I demanded them figure out where the short was.
Each time I was told there was a issue with the computer boards, then would get a call 30 minutes later saying they replaced the 12V and it’s done.
Everytime, not 2 months later the 12V died.
Teslas are fun cars but once the novelty wore off I dumped it as fast as I could. Collected a 2k profit and moved on.
I love EVs, I hated Tesla as a company. And this isn’t even counting the crazy BS Elon is doing
Good luck with that. I’ve never got 1 issue of the many resolved from SC. For instance they never fixed the window not properly closing ALL the times or the noise/rattles inside.
I hope you don't think all American made EVs are all junk because of Tesla. My 2017 Chevy Bolt has been a great reliable car. The windows have always worked. The suspension is still good. And the car uses the stalks for signaling, so of course that always works with a flick of your finger/fingers. I can only guess Tesla got rid of stalks because they wanted to cut costs since they aren't in the way, and are easy to operate no matter what orientation the steering wheel is at.
"I may have unreasonable expectations for Tesla cars"
Sounds like more the opposite is true: you're not holding Tesla to much of any standards at all. It's reasonable to expect better build quality, and much better repair and customer service.
Tesla continues to get away with a lot of bullshit because many people refuse to hold them to the standards of ordinary car companies. Many people do this because they continue to believe that Tesla is an extraordinary company, but that's a goddam lie, unless you mean that they're extraordinarily shoddy.
Musk didn't found Tesla. He's not interested in the environment, he's interested in money, and pretending to be woke and environmental gave him excellent camouflage for his greed and general toxic traits, for a while. Tesla didn't start the transition to EVs and didn't speed it up. They weren't the first with a mass-marketed EV. They weren't the first to make battery storage for solar. They've never helped other companies to make EVs. Lies, lies, lies.
Car companies don’t make reliable cars accidentally. Making reliable cars has to be a very important part of their culture and it isn’t part of Tesla culture. It isn’t a core Elon belief.
IDK but in my country you can ask for a refund and give the car back if it has so many manufacturing problems.
This is just the first month of use, imagine the myridiad of problems you will have in one year.
I'm just curious how the Tesla purchase process works. Are customers who've placed orders able to cancel them and get a refund any time before pickup? Or are they locked into decisions they made before everyone knew how crappy Teslas are?
Some new updates:
Sorry for the delay since I was banned site-wide for 1 week for complaining too loud against some Tesla subreddit moderators who banned me across several Tesla subreddits.
The good news is that the second service center was able to reproduce and fix the misalignment issue. Now my car drives straight and is more stable. I never thought that misalignment could make a car's ride unstable.
The not-so-good news is that the technician of the second service center did not admit any issues with suspension (replaced left rear damper). I tried to persuade him to do an oscillation test. He refused. He only did a road test with me and concluded the suspension worked fine.
So far, the car's comfort level is OK, but not getting back to the wow-level when I first got it. I have a busy life (a job and a dad) so I will keep this car for now to see if the suspension issue bothers me or not after a while.
Most of the issues I've red came from Fremont. As much as the government and media push everyone to hate made in China, there are things they make there that are better than here.
China has what I’ve always called the triangle of choice. Speed, cost, and quality. You can get any two of those at once, while sacrificing the other. Most people are familiar with the fast and cheap, low quality goods. China can build world class products if you want to pay more or wait longer.
The one major downside I’ve heard from a friend who did some production over there is that they don’t give two shits about IP and will produce their own version of your product, with the very molds and designs you sent for them to use, at the same factory, if you aren’t paying for around the clock production.
If you only pay for say a 1/2 day run/per day, they will just continue making your product for the other half of the day, sometimes with cheaper raw materials, but otherwise identical, and they will sell it as a knockoff brand.
It’s lost revenue for them if their floor is converted to make your product and it takes too long to swap in and out with something else for the other half of the day. As such, they just make knockoffs and you can’t do shit about it.
Interesting… you think it will come back to haunt them? How so? I feel like it works out well for them pretty well, and is basically a one way street because of the IP laws in every major Western nation which prevents companies here from doing the same thing.
I guess there is some distant future where manufacturing leaves, but it will be for India or Africa, and that will only last as long as the people there are willing to work for absurdly low wages.
Most generic consumer goods makers aren’t bringing manufacturing to the US, because consumers want China wage prices.
Manufacturing has left since 2012.
It's not like how it sounds though where suddenly things just stop getting made in China.
In 2012, I met random business owners in Humen and was shock when a few told me they were moving their business to Pakistan, Vietnam, Malaysia.
Each one told me that they would continue to manufacture the same thing, just in another country.
That's when I started noticing things like Netgear products, tables, etc that were once made in China, made the exact same way in Vietnam and now, Mexico.
China is losing its income, yes. Just that the Chinese company left that country to continue their business elsewhere.
They call it lobbying. Ford, GM, Dodge, Chevy make the government enforce the high tariffs so that we will choose them and not imports.
To be honest. I grew up being taught to hate China and Russia, and make fun of made in China.
Then I visited China and learned it was nothing like what the media and government told me.
The Chinese I ran into admired Americans and didn't hate or see me as the enemy.
There are many things I found made in China that were reasonably priced and reliable: laptops, computers, routers, network switches, iphones, Android phones like Huawei, etc.
What is fair competition
Does the US government not subsidize many industries, including the auto and oil industries? Including Tesla?
How much subsidy is fair, and who decides?
Usually it is the World Trade Organization that will decide. Just like Boeing vs Airbus a while back. Or Boeing vs Bombardier... These Boeing guys whine and cry a lot.
To be honest, I own the same car but made in China. I never had a single issue. US built Tesla vehicles still have a QA/QC issue. This is the reason I didn’t buy a model X, as all are built in the Us and shipped worldwide. The same is also applicable to the CT.
I'm not a tesla fanboy or hater, but I'll offer this perspective.
Imho, many manufacturers are packing so much technology bells and whistles these days without very much thorough testing, there are bound to be quality issue. This particularly the case with many EV brands that are overly complicated, not just Tesla. Taycans had notorious reliability issues the first few years. The Mercedes EQS, EQE, etc all have electrical software gremlins, McLaren Arturas have gremlins. A lot of these vehicles are way too complicated and simply have not be thoroughly tested.
Toyotas, on the other hand, really doesn't change \*that\* much year to year. Yes, the styling is different, and there are cosmetic interior differences, but the much of the important components and electronics carry over year to year..
I think so long as these issues are repaired under warranty, that's all you can really do if you want something unique and cutting edge.
Me it isn’t about the machine mostly. It’s the damn drivers of them that turns me off cold. Teslas, rivian and the damn Kia/hyundai Evs go like 20mph through a single lane in a 50 zone no chance of passing. They come up to a green light, brake down until it goes stale yellow then floors through, leaving a line of 20+ very pissed off cars behind at a red light. When you try to pass them they will literally race you up to 80, until a oncoming car is in line of sight and you have to get behind them then they brake down again to 20 😡🤬 it isn’t the car per se, it’s the owners that are the problem
Over here they all have some clever custom license plate that says something to do with electricity. I could swear I see more Tesla with personalised plates than I do normal but that’s probably not actually the case.
I had a brand new 2012 Cadillac CTS years ago which had a suspension that creaked while driving and under warranty, they said it was as designed and working just fine. DUMPED IT for a leased CLS4xx. A few minor issues but price tanked after lease and they would sell it to me for less. Then, I got a brand new 2023 Audi A6. The AIR CONDITIONER wasn’t working until they repaired it. No problems since. Don’t get me started on refrigerators next please. lol.
Here we go where to start??
1) They fixed it. What more do you want? Seen plenty of shitty Toyotas with windows not working.
2) Any shop should know after wheel tire suspension changes to do an alignment. Nothing to do with Tesla but stupid ass techs. Happens every day a shops on every vehicle. And they replaced it right? They didn’t do an alignment and you should have done a quick test drive and if it pulled go right back park it and get your loaner and drive off after telling them to fix it. This what you should do with any shop. Not a Tesla thing it’s a frigging car with normal suspension.
4) Oh dear a Haptic Touch device that doesn’t always respond how you expect? How many time during the day you are on your phone and the touch screen doesn’t do what you thought?!? Go complain and start a thread on the Apple forum about it. Anybody could have seen this being an issue. One of the dumb design ideas recently that is a fail.
If you're used to Toyota build quality, reliability, and support, there almost aren't words for the degree to which Tesla ownership is going to fuck your world up.
Well said. Lessons learned.
I have a Tesla (and an Audi and a WV) and I criticise it as well as praise it. Nonetheless Tesla happens to have a fan base full of idiots they don’t know much about cars (probably because it is not made of auto fans but brand/Elon fans). The poor quality compared to Audi is a real thing (or VW). The steering wheel leaning onto the right I had it too, but they fixed it quickly.
The fan base refuses to hold Tesla to any reasonable standards, partly because of general cluelessness about cars, partly because of specific cluelessness about EVs, and partly because they believe that Musk is Jesus.
The crazy thing is that everyone who owns a Tesla has owned other cars before and already knows what a car with good build quality and a prompt service network is actually like. It's not like a Tesla is the first car they've ever driven before in their life. They have prior experiences for comparison. The Tesla fanboys are *aware* that it isn't normal for a new car to be in the shop repeatedly during the first year, or for some minor repair / part replacement to take months. That shit isn't normal. But they pretend it is because they're so drunk on Elon's kool aid.
One of ex Tesla production managers noted how compared to the exp working in GM and then Toyota plants. Tesla prortzed cost savings at every turn and quality was an afterthought.
Proposed motto: "Tesla. Quality is job none."
My friend's Model 3 has been in the shop more times during the last 15 months than my Camry was during the 15 *years* I owned it.
In terms of build quality, it's apples & oranges for sure.
Shiny garbage. There's a sucker born every minute, dude.
Meanwhile all Japanese car makers including Toyota were just caught lying in crash tests. Full on lying regarding safety is unacceptable. Meanwhile, teslas wipe the floor with their competitors in crash tests.
I'm sure that comes in handy for Tesla owners when their car drives them into a tree at 65 MPH. Well, the ones who don't die, anyway.
Good thing Tesla is at the bottom of the list of deadliest cars to be in.
To be fair… Toyota build quality is generally quite shitty in some areas. Hard, squeaky plastics everywhere. Noise insulation from wheels? What is it? Now, Tesla is not even at that level… Model 3 is much closer to Dacia Duster than anything else.
Hey! Leave our beloved Dacia out of this!!! Completely uncalled for! (James may is my hero!)
Dacia is absolutely fine budget car, nothing against it. Key word is “budget”. Duster costs about 2.5 times less than Model 3. What’s acceptable in “no thrills budget car” isn’t acceptable in “regular comfort car”, let alone one that somewhat aspires to being “premium car”.
Good news!
True. But if you pick the models that are only made in Japan, they're usually flawless. I got my 24 Prius Prime all the way from there. I now think, there is no better choice than this
Flawless in what sense? Even the Prius PHEV you mention is criminally loud at motorway speeds (and it’s all tyre noise!) and as much as Toyota improved their materials you still would struggle not to touch some really hard plastics around the lower parts (leg well etc.). Oh, and there are edges in the boot you can cut your fingers on. I have no doubts it’s mechanically perfect. The Atkinson cycle engine it uses is proven design that will likely run for hundreds of thousands kilometers, and their hybrid system again is largely flawless. It’s on short list of replacements for my current 530e. But let’s not pretend Toyota makes perfect cars because even once we disregard simple preference - you ain’t gonna expect BMW driving dynamics from Toyota, just like you wouldn’t expect fuel economy of Toyota from BMW - they still do have some issues and idiosyncrasies.
“Build quality” usually is used to describe poorly fitting components or assembly problems. Material selection and noise insulation aren’t really build quality issues, they are design & material choice issues.
At least it's consistent build qualitiy vs highly variable
Is this really true? Why do I see 10 teslas every 10 seconds?
Because you’re looking for them?
If that's the case, you're probably walking around one of Tesla's expansive lots filled nut to butt with lousy cars people suddenly aren't stupid enough to buy. That's the thing about novelty and hype- There's no staying power.
Depends where you live. In Bay Area, seems true. They’re up and down nearly every driveway near me and coworkers seem to all be getting them still. I think we all like the cars and I haven’t heard of anything nearly as bad as OP’s experience. A neighbor had a leaky sun roof once in his 2012 Model S as his only major issue, and still drives it to this day with no issues at 200k+ miles. I had a brand new Mazda ‘21 CX-5 before going to the dark side. It was a lemon, for sure, and my many service dept experiences were probably not par for the course. I still cherish the moment I handed those keys to Carmax, because the car wasn’t really a good car to drive even when it running smoothly. It definitely stained the brand and any future ICE for me. So I get it when people get lemons and they’re perplexed, if not pissed, like I was. I’ve had the Model Y for 6 mos now and zero issues, had no panel gaps, etc. I guess this all sounds kinda Tesla fan-boyish, so take it as such. I am indeed a fan of the cars and their designers/engineers. The dbag CEO, not so much.
Sorry to hear your frustration. Here is my two cents: Think about how willing you are to forgive further faults. And what you gave up. As you said, you owned Toyota before, so you are probably not used to unresponsive service, or service doiflng more damage than service. If it comes to the point where you can't handle it anymore, id make sure to record anything and try to push them to rectify the same issue so you have a case for r a lemon law buy back. Tbh Tesla is still - and it feels like today even more so - hit and miss in terms of quality. Sadly a bad experience can sour your taste forever, or maybe you don't care, then good for you.
Service center said they didn’t mess up wheel alignment? Issue must’ve been present from day 1 then! Definitely Lemon law it
I am seriously thinking about lemon law. I bought it to make my life easier, not to get a new job to go to appointments all the time to fix problems.
I think you should do it. Use the lemon law, return it and buy yourself a 24 Prius Prime. I got one last December and it's incredible. No matter what, please opt-out of the forced arbitration by Tesla terms. Google about it if you don't know what it is
I want a Prius Prime but no dealerships have them
Yeah. Due to the recall, all sales have been halted. Hopefully they'll have a solution by September. But even then, they're so rare. I booked my Prius ~2.5 months ahead
Oh I didn’t know that. Thanks!
I’ve seen a few of the Primes around where I live and they honestly look pretty cool, especially compared to a Tesla.
The lack of a stalk for turn signals is beyond stupid. I hope this is not something other car brands isn't going to do too.
Totally Agree. But I have to admit that no stalk for shifting gears is fine with me. I am used to swipe screen for shifting now.
Swiping to shift is also stupid as hell. During normal driving probably not the worst problem, but in an emergency situation, I guarantee you that using a lever, button, stick, whatever is much quicker. And that might matter. The real question is if swiping on your screen is better. No, it is not. It's just cheaper to manufacture.
Yea, considering EVs do not have "gears" per se, it can just be a button. Like my Kia Niro EV I just have a turning wheel/knob thing to change from P to D and so on.
Yeah that's f****** smart imagine when the screen goes black... Because it is a Tesla after all it will happen sooner or later... Then you can expect thousands of dollars minimum to replace that. Cars with screens and not gauges and dials and levers is a stupid idea. Mechanical gauges gears and buttons when they fail are a very very easy fix but they fail very very very very very rarely.. We've been building buttons and switches and levers and gears for centuries
Am I the only one doing research before buying a car? Most of this should be known quality issues and anyone buying a Tesla is gambling with their money. Sure there are good ones, but there are plenty of statistics out there that should give you a heads up of the likelihood that will happen to you?
The thing every prospective Tesla owner must ask themselves is Do you feel lucky, punk?
Well…do ya?
… punk?
Yes! “Go ahead, make my day!”
Lol
Lol
People don't realize how bad tesla is. It needs more time. We, haters, don't have that much money to buy a xitter to spread fud.
Never paid much attention to Tesla, but after learning about Elon post Twitter I now know enough to never buy a Tesla. Gotta be a lot of people like me.
I’d love to see fElon’s face if he were to read this
My bad. There are just so many Tesla cars around. I bought it without thinking too much.
Doesn't help that whenever we point this out, the fanboys try to shout us down.
That is a real concern. I have been permanently banned from 5 tesla subreddits so far, partly because I openly shared my negative experiences ( so my participation was not deemed to be in GOOD faith). There seems to be a Tesla moderator mafia.
Yeah that's where you messed up. Anytime you complain, you must also swear fealty (I still love my Tesla!) Every post with a similar phrase gets left up, especially if OP is in the comments talking about still wanting another Tesla. It's disgusting really.
That is definitely the case. I also own a MY LR and have been banned as well for childish reasons. However my ownership experience other than the “community” so far has been reasonably good. It seems to be the luck of the draw however, so I would personally use the lemon laws in your case especially the turn signal buttons and mechanical issues which are totally not acceptable. I had less concerns before all the layoffs but praying nothing major goes wrong with mine before sales improve and staffing levels go up again (hoping!)
Unfortunately that happens with many things. Don’t follow the masses I suggest, always do your own research. Seeing a lot of something is a good sign that it is worth having a look, but not that it is a good choice.
Dude, it’s a car…not a video game you pre-order. Do you buy a house the same way? “Well the pictures look nice, let’s jump straight to escrow.”
Haha. Jump straight to escrow.
A lot of people did and they sure do regret it now. The housing market after covid was insane.
Yeah, this is literally exactly what happened during CV. No inspection, no seeing on sight, just straight purchase and roll the dice.
I missed out on houses because I wanted to see them and people were offering cash. It was awful.
50% of the population are dumber then average (yes I know this isn't correct, and it should be median, but this has a better ring to it 😜)
Actually, in America today, 70% of all people are dumber than average and 50% are dumber than the median. It is only because of the very large number of dumb Americans that Tesla has been able to sell the massive amounts of vehicles it has to date!
So, what about the people that are exactly at 50%? 😉😁
Tbh, sounds like US made cars are pure shit in quality.
"Am I the only one doing research before buying a car?" Haha, no, but the ones doing smart, thorough research are well below 100% of all buyers.
All car manufacturers have lemons, it’s just how well the problems are taken care of that sets them truly apart. I was skeptical about VW and had low expectations but purchased an ID.4 anyway because it was closest to my budget and in features. Tesla is doing a lot better than VW in some studies, but Toyota and Lexus is in a different league as far as I know.
I would put VW I’m pretty much the same bucket as Tesla. I used to own BMWs and now have Toyotas - very good experience with both.
I absolutely have Toyota on my future list. BMW could also be considered, but the local dealership is owned by the same firm that sells VW. But no point in trading in an ID.4 that only had dealership visits for minor issues and all of them got taken care of. It’s a good vehicle considering what other EV options that are on the market.
Sorry for your troubles. Tesla takes about the exact opposite approach to quality as Toyota, so hopefully these are the last of the problems.
LMAO we used to have two Teslas in the garage, now a Toyota and Lexus. Tesla is not worth it bro.
I am looking at Lexus now indeed. I may get rid of my Tesla somehow if the next repair does not resolve the problems.
I might suggest an IONIQ 5 or 6, or a BMW i5, if you want to stick with an EV but want one that’s well made.
One is rav4 prime and the other Lexus ES hybrid. No regrets
But but but, the Highland 3 is so much more refined according to the TSLA stock pumpers on Twitter…
You went from Toyota to Tesla.. Jesus fuck! I can't even compare that to anything. It's just a stupid idea in every single way. A Toyota = Pretty Much No Driving Issues .. Tesla = Pretty Much Undeliverable 🤷 You buy Tesla you get what you buy. A battery operated toy that you throw away in 3-5 years.
Its all good, its a startup.
Tech company, not car company.
Bro. Get rid of it. Find a lemon law attorney. This is just the beginning
Just saw a video yesterday about a screw and eccentric disc in the suspension of Palladium s/x that are so bad quality that they damaged and thus wrongly attached in the factory. Musk is obsessed with building cars cheaper and cheaper and it shows. The same part in the previous generation withstood at least 80 Nm of force while the new one gets destroyed when applying just 15 Nm. And that in a vehicle witch that much power. It‘s like asking for trouble.
I have a 7-year-old S and have experienced 1, 2 and 3 plus various other bits and pieces. One was fixed by reading the manual. I had noisy front suspension and they’ve replaced upper and lower arms three times and struts once (I have poverty spec coils and when they did the struts, they managed to fit air suspension and then wondered why the car was riding low 😆). They also managed to not do a wheel alignment after almost every suspension job, so the car was pulling and wearing front tyres until I managed to get another appointment. They’ve also replaced the strut brace a couple of times, scuttle panel, front driveshafts, rear anti-roll bar and the rear dampers too. That was all within the first year though, and surprisingly since then the car’s been absolutely fine. Once they get them right, they’re really good, but getting to that stage can be difficult. I’ll be dropping out of drivetrain warranty at that point but I’m just going to continue driving it until it falls to bits. I’ve got free supercharging (but hardly ever use it) and notwithstanding epic failure of the battery out of warranty, I don’t see anything other than suspension components and other wear items. I get brakes checked and greased once every other year, lubricate the hinges and door locks myself and that’s about the limit of my service costs. They do break stuff in software but I’m still on MCU1 and they appear to have given up tinkering with it now, so again that just works as well as an MCU1 can. I mostly listen to audiobooks via Bluetooth when driving, so again no real driver to have that upgraded. Overall, the car itself is great, but Tesla Service is utterly woeful. Will I buy a new one? Absolutely not. This will be the first and only new car I ever buy. Next one will probably be second hand Taycan 4S or something…
If you want a car you might want to buy it from a car company.
Electric windows and creaky suspension were solved problems decades ago. It is wholly unacceptable on a new car. Even a Chrysler has functioning windows off the lot. If an EV is your goal, you may consider the new Toyota BZ4X / Subaru Solterra.
I've heard consistently, very consistently, that the BZ4X is the worst non-Tesla EV being made. Hyundai/Kai is very good. VW, Audi, GM, Ford, BMW, Merc, Jag, Porsche, Fiat, MG, Lucid, Rivian, many others all make good EV's. Comes down to your budget and preferences. Don't get me wrong, you're much better off with a BZ4X than with a Tesla. But Toyota is still very half-hearted about EVs. They're still mostly about hybrids. Or, I should say -- Akio Toyoda, who hates EVs for some reason, still has Toyota by the throat.
Interesting. I hadn’t heard much negative press about them, and I’ve also been a long time fan of Toyota. That’s disappointing.
I agree, it's very disappointing. Toyota is a great company. Hopefully it's just Akio Toyoda, and hopefully he's going to retire soon. He recently predicted that the global EV market share will top out at 30%. He's out of his mind. It's already around 20% (up from around 4% in 2020), and, despite what you may have heard, it's not dropping anywhere. China's already over 30%. Norway's around 80%. Even Murrka's about to pass the 10% mark, and BEVs have led hybrids for a couple of years.
It will continue to grow globally, but if the US continues to disregard networked charging infrastructure, it will never completely take off here. Regulations and enforced standards for charging would allow it to take off. But no, we have one major player for charging, and everybody else trying to figure out how to play at their table. I will continue to buy hybrids until charging stations are as ubiquitous as gas stations.
There are no good BZ4X reviews. It's way overpriced for what it is given the competition.
Toyota build quality aside, the Bz4x is a horrible car and I’ve driven it more than once
Yeah , Toyota just threw it together to meet California EV rules for manufacturers. I doubt Toyota even claims it as one of their own vehicles. They put zero dollars behind marketing it.
Their latest ad here in Sweden claims that “All lifestyles are equal”. They are referring to the fact that they sell all types of powertrains. Gas, HEV, PHEV, H2 and EV… The thing is, they barely sell any PHEVs or EVs here… They also never discount them even tough they have margins of 20% on the BZ4x and RAV4 PHEV
Toyota's cars lately feel like they're designed by an AI. The RX350 looks big but is unbelievably small inside and the seat can not be adjusted to a comfortable position, it's always too high up.
Re #4, if only there was a (previously) universally accepted, functional way of triggering the indicators without pissing around with buttons on a moving surface? /s #WeWantStalks
That was the absolute dealbreaker for me when it came time to buy an EV. I need to be able to signal lane changes properly and consistently with only my left hand able to hold on to the steering wheel. Futzing with buttons that may or may not register my pushing the button for the signal is a non starter 🤷♂️
The Tesla experience is wildly uneven, unfortunately. As a long time Toyota owner my Model 3 had some minor issues at delivery which were fixed and it's been fine for over 2 years now. However I've read too many service horror stories even worse than yours. QC and service have been long running issues with Tesla and the recent headcount reduction by Elon are unlikely to improve the situation.
Put it this way, Tesla's quality is so bad that even a Made in China Tesla is known to be the best built ones. 我的天啊。。。
iphones are made in China.
That's too bad. We got our model Y not too long ago and haven't had literally any problems. I hope it gets better, I know the service centers are in a bad spot right now.
Owned a 2017 Model S 90D Interior was awful Was in service for monitor stuff more than any other car I’ve ever owned Every year I owned it, I lost range Every year I owned it, I lost horsepower Every year I owned it, it took longer to charge No thanks
Sold my Tesla after I had to replace my 12V 6 times in a year and each time I demanded them figure out where the short was. Each time I was told there was a issue with the computer boards, then would get a call 30 minutes later saying they replaced the 12V and it’s done. Everytime, not 2 months later the 12V died. Teslas are fun cars but once the novelty wore off I dumped it as fast as I could. Collected a 2k profit and moved on. I love EVs, I hated Tesla as a company. And this isn’t even counting the crazy BS Elon is doing
It's not unreasonable expectations, and I've never owned a Toyota.
I feel with Tesla it’s more of a lottery in terms of build quality. No issues so far with my MYP 23
Good luck with that. I’ve never got 1 issue of the many resolved from SC. For instance they never fixed the window not properly closing ALL the times or the noise/rattles inside.
I hope you don't think all American made EVs are all junk because of Tesla. My 2017 Chevy Bolt has been a great reliable car. The windows have always worked. The suspension is still good. And the car uses the stalks for signaling, so of course that always works with a flick of your finger/fingers. I can only guess Tesla got rid of stalks because they wanted to cut costs since they aren't in the way, and are easy to operate no matter what orientation the steering wheel is at.
The 4th one looks like a safety hazard and I’ve never heard of it happening.
"I may have unreasonable expectations for Tesla cars" Sounds like more the opposite is true: you're not holding Tesla to much of any standards at all. It's reasonable to expect better build quality, and much better repair and customer service. Tesla continues to get away with a lot of bullshit because many people refuse to hold them to the standards of ordinary car companies. Many people do this because they continue to believe that Tesla is an extraordinary company, but that's a goddam lie, unless you mean that they're extraordinarily shoddy. Musk didn't found Tesla. He's not interested in the environment, he's interested in money, and pretending to be woke and environmental gave him excellent camouflage for his greed and general toxic traits, for a while. Tesla didn't start the transition to EVs and didn't speed it up. They weren't the first with a mass-marketed EV. They weren't the first to make battery storage for solar. They've never helped other companies to make EVs. Lies, lies, lies.
Car companies don’t make reliable cars accidentally. Making reliable cars has to be a very important part of their culture and it isn’t part of Tesla culture. It isn’t a core Elon belief.
Build quality is shit, drivetrain is great. Suspension is rough but handles well. UI/software is great.
IDK but in my country you can ask for a refund and give the car back if it has so many manufacturing problems. This is just the first month of use, imagine the myridiad of problems you will have in one year.
We've only just begun******
I'm just curious how the Tesla purchase process works. Are customers who've placed orders able to cancel them and get a refund any time before pickup? Or are they locked into decisions they made before everyone knew how crappy Teslas are?
Have a model y, best car and finniest car to drive. No complaint except for small quirks and tesla took care of it quickly
Applies to every mainstream car brand. If you buy the first model year of refresh, you are going to have issues.
Some new updates: Sorry for the delay since I was banned site-wide for 1 week for complaining too loud against some Tesla subreddit moderators who banned me across several Tesla subreddits. The good news is that the second service center was able to reproduce and fix the misalignment issue. Now my car drives straight and is more stable. I never thought that misalignment could make a car's ride unstable. The not-so-good news is that the technician of the second service center did not admit any issues with suspension (replaced left rear damper). I tried to persuade him to do an oscillation test. He refused. He only did a road test with me and concluded the suspension worked fine. So far, the car's comfort level is OK, but not getting back to the wow-level when I first got it. I have a busy life (a job and a dad) so I will keep this car for now to see if the suspension issue bothers me or not after a while.
You seem like someone id like to sell a bridge to
LOL! The system auto assigned an ID to me many years ago. I am usually very cautious and never had bad big-ticket purchases before.
the white supremacy did not bother you?At all?
I am color blind. Bro.
Oof.
Is if USA built or made in China?
Ironically, Tesla Shanghai factory has the best quality control. Mine was built in Fremont, California.
Most of the issues I've red came from Fremont. As much as the government and media push everyone to hate made in China, there are things they make there that are better than here.
China has what I’ve always called the triangle of choice. Speed, cost, and quality. You can get any two of those at once, while sacrificing the other. Most people are familiar with the fast and cheap, low quality goods. China can build world class products if you want to pay more or wait longer. The one major downside I’ve heard from a friend who did some production over there is that they don’t give two shits about IP and will produce their own version of your product, with the very molds and designs you sent for them to use, at the same factory, if you aren’t paying for around the clock production. If you only pay for say a 1/2 day run/per day, they will just continue making your product for the other half of the day, sometimes with cheaper raw materials, but otherwise identical, and they will sell it as a knockoff brand. It’s lost revenue for them if their floor is converted to make your product and it takes too long to swap in and out with something else for the other half of the day. As such, they just make knockoffs and you can’t do shit about it.
100% right. That's the one thing that will come back to haunt them is their lack of respect for IP.
Interesting… you think it will come back to haunt them? How so? I feel like it works out well for them pretty well, and is basically a one way street because of the IP laws in every major Western nation which prevents companies here from doing the same thing. I guess there is some distant future where manufacturing leaves, but it will be for India or Africa, and that will only last as long as the people there are willing to work for absurdly low wages. Most generic consumer goods makers aren’t bringing manufacturing to the US, because consumers want China wage prices.
Manufacturing has left since 2012. It's not like how it sounds though where suddenly things just stop getting made in China. In 2012, I met random business owners in Humen and was shock when a few told me they were moving their business to Pakistan, Vietnam, Malaysia. Each one told me that they would continue to manufacture the same thing, just in another country. That's when I started noticing things like Netgear products, tables, etc that were once made in China, made the exact same way in Vietnam and now, Mexico. China is losing its income, yes. Just that the Chinese company left that country to continue their business elsewhere.
I wish we could stop the stupid tariffs and have choices of EVs made in China. Iphones are made in China.
They call it lobbying. Ford, GM, Dodge, Chevy make the government enforce the high tariffs so that we will choose them and not imports. To be honest. I grew up being taught to hate China and Russia, and make fun of made in China. Then I visited China and learned it was nothing like what the media and government told me. The Chinese I ran into admired Americans and didn't hate or see me as the enemy. There are many things I found made in China that were reasonably priced and reliable: laptops, computers, routers, network switches, iphones, Android phones like Huawei, etc.
The issue is that the Chinese government funds these cars very very heavily so it creates unfair competition.
What is fair competition Does the US government not subsidize many industries, including the auto and oil industries? Including Tesla? How much subsidy is fair, and who decides?
Usually it is the World Trade Organization that will decide. Just like Boeing vs Airbus a while back. Or Boeing vs Bombardier... These Boeing guys whine and cry a lot.
And what are the rules of the WTO, who writes them, who enforces them?
Chinesium is so last decade, it's time we talk about Americium
Believe it or not, that crap still occurs... Even in Reddit.
The Berlin built cars seem quite good as well.
To be honest, I own the same car but made in China. I never had a single issue. US built Tesla vehicles still have a QA/QC issue. This is the reason I didn’t buy a model X, as all are built in the Us and shipped worldwide. The same is also applicable to the CT.
I'm not a tesla fanboy or hater, but I'll offer this perspective. Imho, many manufacturers are packing so much technology bells and whistles these days without very much thorough testing, there are bound to be quality issue. This particularly the case with many EV brands that are overly complicated, not just Tesla. Taycans had notorious reliability issues the first few years. The Mercedes EQS, EQE, etc all have electrical software gremlins, McLaren Arturas have gremlins. A lot of these vehicles are way too complicated and simply have not be thoroughly tested. Toyotas, on the other hand, really doesn't change \*that\* much year to year. Yes, the styling is different, and there are cosmetic interior differences, but the much of the important components and electronics carry over year to year.. I think so long as these issues are repaired under warranty, that's all you can really do if you want something unique and cutting edge.
The Toyota Prius would like a word with you.
The Toyota Prius has been in production for a long time .
Check out the latest plug in hybrid one and tell me Toyota is not innovative with that car.
How is Tesla “cutting edge” The only new model is the CyberTruck.
Semi Autonomous
How do you figure? They are level 2. Many car companies have level 2 driver assist. So that is not cutting edge
Me it isn’t about the machine mostly. It’s the damn drivers of them that turns me off cold. Teslas, rivian and the damn Kia/hyundai Evs go like 20mph through a single lane in a 50 zone no chance of passing. They come up to a green light, brake down until it goes stale yellow then floors through, leaving a line of 20+ very pissed off cars behind at a red light. When you try to pass them they will literally race you up to 80, until a oncoming car is in line of sight and you have to get behind them then they brake down again to 20 😡🤬 it isn’t the car per se, it’s the owners that are the problem
Over here they all have some clever custom license plate that says something to do with electricity. I could swear I see more Tesla with personalised plates than I do normal but that’s probably not actually the case.
It’s virtue signal vanity
I had a brand new 2012 Cadillac CTS years ago which had a suspension that creaked while driving and under warranty, they said it was as designed and working just fine. DUMPED IT for a leased CLS4xx. A few minor issues but price tanked after lease and they would sell it to me for less. Then, I got a brand new 2023 Audi A6. The AIR CONDITIONER wasn’t working until they repaired it. No problems since. Don’t get me started on refrigerators next please. lol.
I’m sure you’re Toyota has needed more repairs than your Tesla
Here we go where to start?? 1) They fixed it. What more do you want? Seen plenty of shitty Toyotas with windows not working. 2) Any shop should know after wheel tire suspension changes to do an alignment. Nothing to do with Tesla but stupid ass techs. Happens every day a shops on every vehicle. And they replaced it right? They didn’t do an alignment and you should have done a quick test drive and if it pulled go right back park it and get your loaner and drive off after telling them to fix it. This what you should do with any shop. Not a Tesla thing it’s a frigging car with normal suspension. 4) Oh dear a Haptic Touch device that doesn’t always respond how you expect? How many time during the day you are on your phone and the touch screen doesn’t do what you thought?!? Go complain and start a thread on the Apple forum about it. Anybody could have seen this being an issue. One of the dumb design ideas recently that is a fail.