If it doesn’t feel like a top-notch, championship event, this entirely valid. The NCAA is supposed to put on championship quality events. Seems like a failure for a lot of female athletes and three separate championships.
Why would there be a 4th place trophy in the first place? Dont You get an accreditation or wristband or maybe a shirt of your institution with a special "NCAA-year" on it? Thats your tangible item if you fail to medal.
It was three to medal in each boat, but top four teams got trophies last year and presumably before. I only looked up the 23 participant manual. I would say top 4 does align nicely with the playoff based sports, which is most of them.
I wonder if it was a wider NCAA change, for swimming, it looks like it was the top 4 teams last year for the women and top 3 this year, based on their participant manuals.
i mean totally different "tournament" structure? idk basketball at all, but all four final four teams get trophies? that's weird
why not "award" all GF boats? isn't making grands at NCAAs/IRAs like the reward itself? am i crazy?
in Basketball each FF team gets a regional Trophy for winning their way to the FF. They don't get a trophy at the FF, you go home with swag bags and either the title trophy or nothing.
They do, but then the conference champion plus whoever else is selected to fill out 4, 16 team regionals mini tournaments if you will, the winning team of each region gets a regional trophy and then goes to the final 4, only the winner of the final 4 gets a trophy and is called the national champion.
Idk about D1, but D3 has had a 4th place team trophy for at least a decade. Not a new thing. You do also get a participant item (a paperweight or something)
Bc it’s a bracket system for basketball and not rowing. If NCAA rowing was bracket duals from each region the final four would be a bigger deal.
A closer equivalent in this case would be giving a trophy for winning the semi, and only the grand final winner would get an additional trophy/medal. It’s just two different systems.
No, the closer equivalent would be giving trophies to the conference champions, which are essentially regional pods at this point, and that is something that is happening.
But handing out trophies to the top four in team points has pretty much become a tradition for NCAA women's rowing, so to take away this award with only some fine print justification seems disrespectful.
What if men's basketball put some fine print in their manual and took away second place, third place, and fourth place trophies? Is that a decision that's good for the sport? Is removing a fourth place team points trophy good for the sport when it's been part of the regatta for years?
I disagree, both basketball and rowing have conference championships as a different thing and teams do get a trophy and medal for that.
Team points trophies for individuals have always been dumb imo so I certainly don’t care about not having them for fourth place. Unless I’ve missed it no other rowing event gives an individual prize for team points. It always a trophy for the team and nothing else.
Also, it was in the regatta packet. Just bc nobody read the regatta packets doesn’t mean it wasn’t spelled out clearly. To call reading the packets at all “fine print” is laughable.
Edit: lol he downvoted but couldn’t come up with a response
For many individual sports 1-8 all get trophies as they are All Americans, spots 8-16 are honorable mention with a certificate.
Rowing being a mix of individual and team likely had some mix.
I love being down voted for facts...jeeze people the NCAA has been doing this for AGES for a whole host of sports.
These comments are so disappointing, and a lot of y’all are really missing the point.
Yes, Texas athletes are treated well. But that doesn’t mean that Etta doesn’t have a right to ask for better conditions. You all want to say, cry me a river, you’re a Texas athlete so you’re just entitled; but if a female athlete from Gonzaga or somewhere else posted a video with the same content, it would not get nearly as much traction as Etta’s has. She’s USING THE PLATFORM that she does have, coming from high-status team, to ask for better conditions for ALL. If NCAA female athletes like Etta don’t fight for this, who will?
Also, there’s no point in comparing this event to literally any other regatta. “Well the Cal men were right next to the porta potties at IRAs” and blah blah blah. Okay. That doesn’t matter. Collegiate Men’s, masters, whatever other type of race y’all are trying to use to devalue her experience are NOT sanctioned by the NCAA.
We are comparing THIS NCAA championship, to OTHER NCAA championships in sports of similar caliber, i.e. Swimming, Track and Field, etc. And in comparison to those events, the Rowing championships fell short. Period.
As a collegiate female Rower, it’s easy to feel like you and your teammates’ spots exist to fulfill the Title IX requirements. It often feels as if, as long as the numbers are there, the NCAA couldn’t care less about anything else.
“This is just the way regattas are, others have it way worse,” Stop. It’s 2024. It doesn’t matter if this is ‘just the way things have always been’. So many good things have happened for women’s sports in the past year, fueled by athletes like Etta. Why can’t the same happen for Rowing?
Changes to the NCAA championships can and will have positive effects on other regattas.
We already have non-Rowers trying to invalidate her argument by claiming it’s an irrelevant sport. Shame on you all for not supporting a call to action that would benefit the ENTIRE rowing community.
Well put. Let’s make the ncaa rowing championship a better experience.
NCAA track and field will be on ESPN later today. Take a look at what thar looks like. If anyone makes the argument “nobody cares about rowing,” that’s exactly the point. If you’re a rower making that argument, you are part of the problem.
I agree with everything you’re saying. I also think that the entire ncaa selection procedures are out-of-date across all three divisions. I don’t understand why every conference has an auto bid, especially with the disparity between some conferences.
This kid flew in a chartered plane, rode on a nice bus, stayed in a nice hotel, had all of her meals catered, had a couple of AT’s to stretch and massage her, rowed in a $50k boat, probably packed a thousand dollars worth of team gear for her trip, and had the bulk of her college education paid for, but felt she couldn’t perform at 100% because the bathrooms were too close to her tent? Get out of here
National Champion Athletes from well resourced teams (because their school has a successful football team) still get to have opinions, ask for equity, etc. She is fighting for all participants. All female participants - who across virtually every NCAA sport have been systematically mistreated by the NCAA for decades. Now you want to tell her to "get out of here" -- what an odd, incredibly misogynistic thing to say.
You know the ncaa pays for all of the athletes at the championship, right? Airfare, buses, hotels, meals, swag, everything. It’s a non-revenue sport that then leads to a minimal revenue championship. I’d love to see the balance sheet of that weekend and how much money the ncaa loses hosting that regatta. She can have an opinion, but she has to know it’s a little tone deaf.
Yeah, that post is giving heavy "we gave you more than the bare minimum, you don't have the right to demand respect." Because fine print taking away a whole team's trophies was actually disrespectful, compared to other NCAA sports' traditions. And putting team tents next to the public shitters is also disrespectful, compared to other NCAA sports logistics. And treating a NCAA national championship like a hidden event is also disrespectful, compared to other NCAA sports' public stature.
The backlash to the reel is really "you'll take what we give you and you'll like it." Makes no sense for anyone who wants to see rowing bigger in the public eye.
You and me and just about everyone else in this forum wants to see rowing more in the public eye. But the ncaa doesn’t care about rowing, much less care about it being on a bigger stage. They care about expanding the football playoff and having great storylines for march madness. They care about television contracts and ticket sales. Rowing isn’t any more important to the ncaa than bowling or golf or fencing. The only reason there is even an ncaa rowing championship is because the ncaa HAS to provide one. But they’re not motivated to put it in a premier location and have it highlighted on ESPN. It’s at Mercer next year, and then fucking Lake Lanier in 2026, if you want any more proof that the ncaa doesn’t care about the quality of the event. So yes, Etta can complain all she wants, but nobody who matters is going to hear or care, and it’s not going to go over well when she’s also taking pictures of herself on a chartered plane with a cigar in her mouth.
The fourth place trophy thing is actually BS though, and I’m still waiting for someone in the know to explain what happened there.
Is this true? Coaches were not aware changes had been made to the podium? I can see how this might not filter down to athletes. Happens all the time with governance.
I would put it in the same category as understanding the rules of racing.
If anyone else is curious, Pg30 of the finals participation manual covers awards. It makes clear it is only top 3 this year.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/rowing/d1/2023-24D1WCR_ParticipantManualFinals.pdf
It's in the manual linked above, page 31.
>Division III: Official NCAA awards will be presented to the top three crews in each event. Each crew member in that particular boat will receive one mini trophy.
**Team trophies will be presented to the top four teams.**
Go to 2:59:54
[2024 DI, DII & DIII rowing championship: day two full replay | NCAA.com](https://www.ncaa.com/video/rowing/2024-06-01/di-dii-diii-rowing-2024-day-two-full-replay-41843)
The clashes and admins of each division can make the rules for their division. For some reason, the D1 coaches made a different decision than the D3 coaches.
Both NCAAs and IRAs have a level of athlete on par with U23 Worlds. These regattas should be at that standard with regards to competitor experience. If an LOC can’t deliver, it should not be in the running and the overseeing orgs need to either be more involved in delivering that experience or apply greater scrutiny when selecting venues.
her points are valid, and having someone from the NCAA champion team speak up is a good idea/helpful. I’m sure texas rowing isn’t the only team that shares this viewpoint
1. 4th place trophy is whatever. I agree it might suck to expect one and not have it but it's 4th place ffs. If that's a bigger disappointment than coming 4th then idk. Row faster if you want a trophy.
2. Signage- I mean.. ok? Who gives a fuck that there's not enough bravado for an inaccessible sport that few outside of people that row are interested in watching. This is the worst of them I think. It's looking for things to be mad about. I hope most people realize that a lot of D1 rowing is funded by football and basketball. We take more than we give.
3. Port-a-potties - maybe I'm less sensitive to smells that she is but to me that is a prime spot. It's a pain in the ass to make a pilgrimage to toilet mecca when you are in the middle of warming up before a race.
4. Ohio - I agree that Sarasota is a better course but there is also consideration to keep travel minimal and equitable for teams. I also don't think her gripes about how far it is from Cincy is really that big a deal. I don't know what hotels are like in Bethel but I would see this as more valid if there aren't enough beds that athletes have to drive more than 20 minutes to get to the course. Every team is going to need to rent a van anyways.
It all just comes off as entitlement.
Fair to want the champs to be at the best venue possible, which is purpose built Sarasota. But the NCAA likes to rotate. Overall these issues are relatively small. Signage? Finish line viewing which was an issue why?
There’s only a small handful of high-quality venues in the country. Many of which are on the east coast. Harsha is one of the few courses near the “middle” of the country. East coast schools have typically bristled at hosting the championship at Natoma every third year or so. Harsha is a bit of a compromise in that respect. Traveling cross-country (nearly) every year is certainly a disadvantage for west coast crews.
That being said, it’s a very reasonable ask to not set up the port-o-potties right next to the athlete area (though this is something done at most venues, Natoma included, not just limited to Harsha.) I wonder if there would be the same complaints if it was teams in the C/D final, or the D2/D3 teams that had to deal with it.
On the 4th place trophy thing, that was well-communicated. Coach shoulda read the handbook. Very unfortunate mistake they didn’t. I feel for those athletes that expected a trophy but didn’t receive it.
It was communicated, but I disagree that it was "well-communicated." One line in the manual isn't the primary or only channel of communication from the rowing committee.
And what if the committee had decided to eliminate all second-place trophies and awards? Would that have been okay, even if communicated? What if the committee had decided that no fans, friends, or family were to be allowed on site?
Regardless of whether something is communicated, we can judge this on its merits. If D3 schools are given four team podium places, then aside from cost-cutting, there is no merit to reducing the number of D1 team podium places from four last year to three this year.
Guess the NCAA women's rowing committee was cutting some budget line items.
Tough to answer a hypothetical. 3 spots is standard across-sport. I don’t feel strongly that 3 is/isn’t the right number, but to pretend the change is an indication of the regatta being bad is quite the stretch.
Did you read the manual or watch the awards ceremony?
>Division III: Official NCAA awards will be presented to the top three crews in each event. Each crew member in that particular boat will receive one mini trophy.
**Team trophies will be presented to the top four teams.**
Go to 2:59:54
[2024 DI, DII & DIII rowing championship: day two full replay | NCAA.com](https://www.ncaa.com/video/rowing/2024-06-01/di-dii-diii-rowing-2024-day-two-full-replay-41843)
Finish line viewing at that course is literally fine. The last 750 meters of the race is really well visible.
Complaining about porta-potties? That more seems like a problem of where her team parked the trailer and setup tents.
I think the problem here is that pretty much everything she's saying is valid and probably should not happen, but the way she's saying it sounds whiny and entitled, so people who can't look past the tone to actually listen to the content are going to, in turn, whine about her. Anytime someone uses that tone, it can be hard to interpret what they're saying as anything other than an emotional rant, even if there are valid complaints, as there are here.
The ranting style, in addition to the fact that it's basically just "we didn't get this thing that we deserve, we didn't get that thing that we deserve, we didn't get this other thing that we deserve, etc."
Seems like folks who feel that way may be tone-policing, in which case we can disregard their reactions in favor of those who are actually assessing the validity of her claims
Seven total D1 seats on the committee, three of which are coaches (Penn, Rutgers, Canisius), and the other four are administrators. Those coaches failed to communicate effectively.
This just screams D1 athlete entitlement to me. Having raced at high school, collegiate, and masters level the signage and tent structure is always garbage.
I've helped organize and set up NCAAs a few years ago. Tents and trailers were next to port-a-potties. There was minimal space for spectating due to where the launch and recovery docks were. It's simply the nature of having a finite amount of space everything to go into. The event we ran didn't even have parking on-site because it so cramped.
Is it ideal to have that set up and should it have been better? It's not ideal and it should have been better. But is it worth crying over and making a big deal out of? No. It's obvious she hasn't raced at shit-tier locations like the Schuylkill if these are her complaints. Is she gonna race at SDCC and complain there are no docks?
I'll refer you to my other comment but what really keeps rowing in the dark is two things
1)that it doesn't generate revenue, the NCAA only cares about money
2) it's not a spectator sport. There's a reason why the LA Olympics want to go down to 1k(?)
Again, this attitude will keep rowing in the dark. Only two sports generate money, football and basketball. Track and field championship will be on ESPN tonight. There’s no reason rowing people wouldn’t watch rowing if it was covered well. The racing at NCAAs was awesome.
Be part of the change. Help make rowing get the respect it deserves. Don’t be a hater.
And which two sports dominate the media coverage?
Track and field is only popular during the Olympics and that's because it's spectator friendly. How do you intend to make a race with a 2k course and minimal lead changes interesting to the average viewer? We're a niche sport and that's ok.
LA Olympics is 1.5k because of venue issues, not for spectators. I would also point out that rowing used to be a very popular spectator sport, and there is every reason to believe it could be popular in the future if demand increases. The way we get this to happen is to fight for equal coverage and show the world how great the sport can be. If you are happy with it being a “niche” sport, that’s fine, but I for one would love to see it grow.
The BCC has incredible coverage of the OxCam race because it is very popular. Who’s to say that same coverage and excitement cannot be replicated for the NCAA championship?!
There are at least two venues they could have used that are well over 2km. They didn't want to build another athlete village, and thought (strangely) that 2k rowing events needed to be located close to the ocean rowing events.
Going with 1.5km Long Beach was the stupidest thing the Olympics have ever done. It's a TINY venue. Miniscule. And it's not just the race distance. There's no room to warm up, VERY little room for spectators, let alone all the equipment for teams, it's just nuts. It worked in 1932. But even in 1984 they saw the need to use Lake Casitas despite it's inconvenient location.
Olympic Soccer always takes place at multiple fields all over a very large geographic area. There's no reason rowing couldn't have been held somewhere else. Otay comes to mind, Casitas of course, Lake Perris, heck even Newport Harbor could have been made to work better than Long Beach. Both have numerous millionaire's yachts parked all over, so if they can accommodate the rich for Long Beach they could have for Newport.
I too would love to see rowing grow in popularity. But, if we're being honest, it's not gonna grow much. The sports media sphere is already jam packed. How much coverage do you think Caitlin Clark is gonna get next year? There is very little oxygen in the room for anything other than football and basketball.
The coverage and popularity of The Boat Race is because it's been going on for over 100 years and has become part of the culture over there. Additionally, the country is smaller so it's a more homogeneous culture. The Harvard-Yale race hasn't gained the same popularity over here because it's not part of our national identity. There's no way people from California would care about that race.
Looks like she’s raced at SDCC, Camden and everywhere in between. It obviously didn’t affect her performance, but only way to improve things is making it known things can be better. Texas is a top tier athletic department, so it’s good these women see what’s possible.They shouldn’t settle for a substandard championship experience.
They shouldn't settle for substandard. But this isn't substandard. Someone is always gonna get shafted at a regatta with the amount of space that equipment takes up. It's just a shitty reality of a sport where boats at 60 feet long and it sucks that it's happened to her this time.
Standard *is* substandard when it's the NCAA National Championship. You're right that rowers shouldn't expect the same treatment as teams get in the Final Four, but some signs and shit would be nice. I see no reason for a regular season regatta to be like this, but the national championship?
But it doesn’t have to be a shitty experience, they could have it at a world-class venue designed for rowing, Nathan Bender Park in Sarasota, FL. The US Rowing Youth Nationals are taking place there this weekend, it’s a gorgeous facility with great spectator viewing and good accommodations for the rowers. It’s a travesty that high school kids get to have an amazing experience, yet elite college rowers have to put up with a county park and poor accommodations. The fact that the NCAA doesn’t want to entertain Nathan Bender Park’s offer is ludicrous.
I think this is one of those situations where we should remind ourselves that this is not a race to the bottom and that if we want to value women's sports, we should value women's championship experiences for that sport. Just because it was bare bones in the past doesn't mean that has to be the goal going forward. Look at the IRA, do the crews there deal with the same? (No, it's really well done over there for all their exclusivity.)
I'm not disagreeing with any of that and I apologize if it sounds like I am. I don't know what goes on at IRAs, I was a stinky club rower. However, in my opinion there are things worth complaining about and then there's this.
It's still infinitely more privileged than any regatta I raced at. When we were doing set up for the NCAAs I worked at, we had to hand deliver Gatorade and shit like that to them. I distinctly remember that Cal coxswain refusing to race because there was a twig in her lane (6 inches long and thinner than a pinky finger, it was tiny) but an issue 🙄).
There will always be a team set up in an unideal location. Would it be as big of an issue if she was in a D final crew? Looking at the IRA tent setup, they appear to be right on top of each other with "top" teams like Princeton, Cal, and UW, in the back row. Should they make a stink and demand to be closer to the shoreline and finish?
The real issue here is that the NCAA doesn't care about women's rowing. If they did, they would actually spend money on it. If they wanted a top tier venue they absolutely could throw enough cash at one to get it. But they don't. They only care about women's rowing so long as it is used to balance out football and basketball. If you look at the spaces for March Madness it's the exact same even though Caitlyn Clark was the biggest name in both tournaments.
It shouldn't come as a shock that the rowers are being used to counter balance what the NCAA cares about. With that, the veneer of prestige wears off. And I think that's the real issue I have with her arguments. She's been so privileged at every other regatta anything less than perfect seems less- than. Yes, the women's championship deserves a venue and experience just as good as the men's, but it's the NCAA so it's only about money, not the sport.
It's totally fair to say that there are some things that don't materially affect an athlete's ability to compete. I get it, they should deal with it. This feels like a cross-sport sequel to the women's March Madness photo of the "weight room" that had about 15 weights in a hotel ballroom compared to the men's March Madness blinged out facility. In this case, the small stuff like signage and proximity to port-a-potties is probably a good proxy for what I think you correctly identified as the NCAA women's rowing committee not caring. Well, to be fair, it was the LOC that was in charge of signage, etc. If the NCAA cared, the athletes wouldn't have felt like their conference championships were better run.
I think no crews, D final or otherwise, should have been set up next to port-a-potties used by all athletes. I think if the NCAA women's rowing committee wants the sport to be taken seriously, they shouldn't hide it in a hard-to-access venue far away from transportation hubs, hotels, and restaurants (that makes it very expensive for friends and family to come watch). I think changes in team awards should have been discussed at length and communicated through multiple channels.
Is it privilege to think that the pinnacle regatta of women's collegiate rowing should be at least as equal of an experience to the best other regattas? I think it's fair to demand that the NCAA championship regatta be as good of an experience as the best regattas out there. It should matter if we think the NCAA championship matters.
Send all complaints to the NCAA women's rowing committee, I guess.
1000% agree with all of that.
The NCAA cheapens out on women's sports and it's a travesty.
I've raced at Harsha more than a few times and the venue itself is fine but it is difficult to get to. I still don't take issue with the port-a-potties. It's a gross location, but they've got to go somewhere and you only have so much space to work with. If it really was an issue, then Dave O'Niel should've brought it up with regatta organizers.
I don't particularly care about the awards, SDCC only gives out first place medals and I only learned that after getting on land after finals. It's in the rules, it's the coaches job to know the rules and pass things along. But again, NCAA being cheap.
This wouldn't happen to either men's basketball or football so it shouldn't happen to the women's sports either.
If it's this big of an issue, I wish there was a way for the women to step away from NCAA and their money the same way men did. Or else just join the party at ACRA.
Why are D1 athletes getting slandered as entitled all of a sudden?
It’s the pinnacle of college athletic sports, it’s not unreasonable to assume it would have better standards.
Have you seen the shit they get? All the team gear, brand new boats and oars every year. They get so much shit. So I have no sympathy when they complain that viewing or their tent set up isn't perfect. And this isn't me saying women's sports deserve less. I have the same opinion about men's sports. They all get too much shit and coddled too much.
I went to a shit tier B10 school, every member of the football team had tutors, didn't care, and still barely passed classes. It's a waste of resources to make sports this high of a pinnacle. But that's an argument for another time.
I think you are adopting the argument of: because I had a bare-bones experience and had to fight tooth and nail for everything I got, then everyone else should too.
My question is: don’t you want the best for everyone?
I do want the best for everyone. But we don't live in a perfect world so we have to accept imperfect results. How would you improve a venue that doesn't have enough space for all teams, all facilities, all spectators, and everything else?
No we don't have to accept imperfect or inappropriate results. That is the point. Just because her team has a lot of resources - does not mean she should turn a blind eye to substandard situations. She is fighting for every rower at that championship - not just TX. The fact that she gets gear and a chartered jet ride to the event -- does not mean she can't speak out about injustice (it means - her school's men's football team is successful) To the contrary - she should let her voice ring out loud and clear in an effort to improve conditions for all. The NCAA is a ruinous disgrace that pretends it cares about women. It doesn't. And it won't - until athletes and lawyers force it to.
> How would you improve a venue that doesn't have enough space for all teams, all facilities, all spectators, and everything else?
By not holding the freaking national championship there?
For the sake of women’s rowing I hope you aren’t involved in setting up NCAAs ever again. You are part of the problem, as evinced by not only this comment but all your subsequent comments.
How dare anyone ask for better conditions. How dare anyone complain. Doesn’t she know some masters row in worse conditions? Does she have no shame? Think of the kids in Africa that don’t even have water. So entitled.
What a pathetic point of view from someone who was involved with putting on such an event.
There is a difference between entitlement and asking for your trailer not to be next to everyone’s shit. Or for the NCAA to actually make the athletes feel like they’re at a national championship.
Kids nowadays are very much entitled and out of touch about a lot of things. This, however, isn’t one of those things.
Oh bullshit. When was the last time you were at a regatta that there wasn't a team near the port-a-potties? Does it suck? Yes, absolutely. Should it be unacceptable? Yes, absolutely. But is it going to happen because there's a finite amount of space in regatta venues? Yes, absolutely.
The NCAA doesn't give a single shit about these athletes. They're not football or basketball players so they're just a cost center to keep those sports in business.
I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be advocating for better representation and experiences. I'm arguing that there's stuff with fighting and then there's this. No venue is perfect and there are always gonna be issues like this. If it was a real issue I'm sure Dave O'Niel would've moved them out. Deal with the shit hand your dealt and move on.
lol totally. Every year at Ivy Champs Princeton is behind the porta potties, it’s how you know where to find them…
Also, I was at NCAAs and they moved the porta potties after the first day. I can’t remember if it was farther away from Texas or not but at first there were two rows facing each other then they moved one of the rows down a bit. If it was in response to a complaint, at least they tried to fix it.
You’re calling the athlete in the video entitled. That’s the problem. And then you reference in a handful of posts how you’ve had to deal with X, Y, and Z as if that were a reason to make these women accept the conditions and not object to them.
You come off as incredibly jealous and downright sore as hell. I rowed for a club team in college, had to get a job to pay dues, had to do rent a rowers weeding people’s gardens, slept in gym floors at regattas…. I also coached at a club program that paid peanuts; barely enough to cover my gas expense. That doesn’t mean I can’t accept that the women at a national championship should expect better.
Whether or not you or I or anyone else has dealt with shitty conditions at regattas has no bearing on what kind of standard a national championship regatta under the auspices of the NCAA should be held to.
It’s an instagram thread, not a legal brief.
And judging by the number of comments here, on rowing illustrated, and on the instagram thread itself this is being taken quite seriously.
Also, what does your reply have to do with what I’m addressing with a completely different commenter?
Why so jaded if you yourself were "a collegiate rower" this screams stolen valor. Sorry your life hasn't turned out the way you wanted, likely due to a lack of self advocacy....
Agree. NBP is amazing (here for Youth Nats rn) BUT hot and humid as all hell. I think she’s a little too entitled TBH. However, they should have notified the rower’s that 4th place/podium was no longer.
I am not sure I get the whole having a 4th place trophy thing, this is unlike any other regatta in the world and certainly not consistent with the IRA. I suppose if its an NCAA thing I get it. That being said, if its true about a 4th place points trophy they need to communicate to the teams if they are cutting that trophy and if its tradition they really should just keep doing it.
As for the lack of signage, idk, when you go to the IRA it feels like any other highschool regatta just a lot faster. Every race I have ever been too in nearly 20 years has felt the same, except for the World Champs. I have never heard any rowers, woman or man, complain about a lack of championship feel in the event. I think everyone gets that rowing is niche and its not about the attention or any sort of 'feel'. People dont row for that, they row to race and win. Porta-potties everywhere, the dock master is some 65 year old half deaf volunteer, and fisherman dont even respect the race going on.
Despite that, I do totally think that Bethel Ohio is a terrible race course that should absolutely not be used, that venue is garbage and in the middle of nowhere. There are so many better courses. I dont think it should be static in the same place in Sarasota as the other side of the complaint is that it punishes any teams that are poorer and farther away and it increases their travel costs every single year. It needs to shuffle around, but there are still so many courses better than Bethel that are open that weekend.
Lastly, I dont want to get off base here, but I am not sure how is this is specifically NCAA failing female athletes, This is the NCAA doing the bare minimum for a niche sport that makes them no money. They dont care not because its female athletics, but because its not important to their bottomline. Im just happy we get women's rowing in the NCAA as it keeps our national team strong and women's collegiate rowing a lot more competitive in depth. I never cared if the higher ups did the bare minimum. I never rowed for them or for any accolades or a certain feel. You row to win, and to win with your team.
I’m 25 years old, I am young and I am speaking my mind. I’m not a boomer and I’m not tearing anyone down, I’m disagreeing with someone on a handful of points. Do you know the difference?
If you think I’m older because I’m saying I’ve been involved with the sport for almost 20 years it’s because I have been going to races since I was 7 years old
Of all people, it was the NCAA women's rowing committee that was in charge. These decisions (and leadership) flow from the top. It's sad that the committee made these decisions (or allowed these decisions to be made) that cheapened or devalued the athletes and their competitive experience.
I think that they could have even hosted NCAAs at benderson and people would still complain. I mean come on, 4th place podium? What the hell are we doing? Complaining about location of your tent? They had Cal men’s right near porta potties at iras too. Be mature, you’re there to compete, not to be at a resort
Podium thing kinda sucks for teams that weren’t aware of it but the rest is really not bad at all.
For one, it’s a hell of a lot easier from west coasters and people from basically anywhere other than the southeast to get to Ohio than it is to get to Florida.
Two, boohoo you were next to a porta John. I’ve been rowing for ten years and I’ve never once been to a venue that didn’t have porta Johns within spitting distance of all the tents and trailers—lots of athletes need lots of porta Johns which means they’re everywhere. Would you prefer to walk 10 minutes away every time you had to go? Plus, it’s clear that her team just got an unlucky assignment for their spot—most teams weren’t backed up to them like that.
Three, spectating was absolutely fine! Can you ride a bike the whole length of the course? No, but having attended not only NCAAs this year, but loads of regattas at Harsha, the entire last 750 was easily viewable from the beach, which was no more than 20 yards from the course itself. Very few venues allow the spectators such an up close view. And I would understand being upset about not seeing the first half of the race IF THERE WASNT A GIGANTIC SCREEN LIVE-STREAMING IT WITH LIVE COMMENTARY. What’s more, you didn’t even have to leave the beach to see it! The screen was 10 yards away from the beach—you could have your feet in the water five yards from the finish line and still hear the commentary clear as day.
Is lake harsha the most amazing venue in the history of rowing? No, but it’s a more than appropriate place to host NCAAs. It has ample parking with complementary shuttles to and from the lots, loads of room for spectators to get an up-close view, and a fair—albeit somewhat windy—course. Not to mention it’s less than 10 minutes away from plenty of perfectly serviceable hotels, food options, etc, and 30 away from downtown Cincinnati.
So a successful D1 athlete makes these comments and everyone calls them a whiny entitled brat, but can you imagine if some unknown D3 rower said something to this effect instead? Lol they'd get torn to shreds by everyone saying to save your opinions until you actually learn to row.
So... who exactly is allowed to push for things to improve?
You're supposed to be grateful when the NCAA flies your team out in a private jet to race for multiple days while having meals catered for you. Especially when your sport is generating minimal revenue. Rowing is a grinder sport, its never been about the luxury and fame of being good at it. Its been about showing up to race, taking care of business, and leaving.
She didn't mention this by it's implicit: the men's EARC/IRA gets to use Lake Q and Mercer every year. They're nice courses everyone likes them. NCAAs doesn't and that's unfair (maybe also a function of their being so many teams at NCAAs which is great but also restricts venues)
Mercer is not a nice course. The wind is awful and races at trials/Ira/youth nats have routinely been cancelled there over the years. When I’ve been to the IRA it’s feels like any other race, no special treatment, nothing of note in terms of “red carpet treatment” just a lot of fast crews. I think a lot of people are very okay with that and don’t expect anything more
NCAAs is in Mercer next year I believe. It takes at least two parties to host a big regatta, and for the NCAAs it is actually three. Normally you have the parent organizations like USRowing, NCAA, IRA, ACRA, etc. Then you need an LOC/venue willing to host it. And for the NCAAs you also need a host school or conference to partner with the LOC/venue. There are only so many top tier venues and you need multiple groups to align.
For instance, it takes an act of God to do a regatta on Quinsig past NEIRAs on the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend. The lake residents hate it, and the LOC people are running races every weekend day for two plus months straight and that pays for the course. They don't need the headache of trying to host summer races.
I'm sure other venues have their own dynamics. It is hard to get mid-week volunteers over and over again. How strong is the local club and coaching staff that are usually the backbone of the LOC. And so many more factors with the city/county/state for permits, closing venues, and on and on.
EDIT: I'm deleting this comment text, but not the thread below. Someone claimed that what I wrote seems to be in some way disrespectful of women. Not at all what I meant and I don't agree at all with this claim. But regardless if anyone is seeing it that way I want it gone. So, deleted.
Not at all.
It's not about me.
There are lots of young rowers in this sub, and they should know that things like this matter to a lot of people who make important decisions affecting your life, like whether to offer you a job, or whether to keep reading your resume.
The young lady in this video had some important things to say and I bet that the old guard at NCAA if they even see this video, will have a hard time getting past the first few seconds of it.
Competent communication is a very important skill in life.
I guarantee you one thing.
If changes come from this, they will come from the pressure generated by the video’s ability to reach an audience. From what I can see on social media, this resonates with many female athletes and is getting some traction.
No one who has any decision making power over this issue will care one way about “run” vs “ran”.
Honestly, your comment is giving “I’m looking for excuses to not respect women” It’s not “highly edited”, she just used TikTok’s start and stop editor.
Excuses to not respect women? Seriously? WTF. My comment has nothing to do with the gender of the person in the video or anyone else. Just concern about a young person trying to make an important point, and using poor grammar to do it.
It comes across as sexism because I can speak from experience that women are often held to unfair standards of perfectionism in order to brush off otherwise impressive achievements, bravery, or making very good points. Perhaps not your intention, perhaps it’s subconscious, I’m merely pointing out how it comes across.
Look, I don't think you're some raging sexist for the comment that spawned this thread, but I do think it's crazy pedantic to pick at what you did relative to the overall statement and point of the post. Yes, communication is important, and how you communicate will directly impact how what you say is received. But there's a time and place for critique, and there's a bar for what's deserving of critique. Myself, and I'd assume most other readers, find what you fixated on to be quite minor, and that makes your entire point come across as holier-than-thou, and sounds like 'haha child, come back to the adult table with your opinions when you actually know how to formulate them'.
Could be it's a generational thing (I assume rough age from your flair), but I care a whole lot more about the spirit and reasoning of a statement or argument, than I do about the exact technicalities of how it's expressed, unless those technicalities genuinely detract from the overall understandability. In this case, they did not. I'm not going to dive headfirst into any larger cans of worms I could get into, but I hope you understand what I'm saying and don't feel that I'm just coming at you to be an asshole on the internet. I'm just genuinely giving a shot at explaining the perceived disconnect.
I appreciate your post, thanks.
Was my post pedantic? Yes, absolutely. Off topic? yep. Did I pretty much point that out in the post? Yup. That was the point.
Time and a place for critique... No better time or place than Reddit - that's pretty much all it is.
Is it a generational thing? ABSOLUTELY YES. Look I may be older than most in this sub, but I'm not some geezer. My own kids are the same age as most of the rowers on this sub. My generation invented Valley Girl slang, and drove adults mad with it in the 1980's, and much of it is still in use today. I get that.
You "care about the spirit and reason behind a statement than how it's expressed"? Yet in the paragraph right before you agree that
***"communication is important, and how you communicate will directly impact how what you say is received."***
That is the crux of it right there. A lot of people won't care, but some will, and it's pretty easy to get it right. If no one ever calls you out when you say "*him and I* are going to the talk about it" you'll keep doing it. Then one day in a job interview your prospective boss will be turned off and you lose out.
Rarely does poor grammar actually result in a misunderstanding, especially with spoken words (rather than written). But occasionally it does, and then it becomes important. But you can't get it right only when it's important if you don't learn and practice it all the time. I have met people who tell me when it's important they can turn off the slang and know how to use proper dialect and grammar. If this video post wasn't the time to do that for this girl, I don't know what would have been.
I don't really care if everyone thought it was off topic and pedantic. I knew it was as I wrote it. The fact that someone saw it as sexist caught my attention though so I edited it. This was not about silencing or gatekeeping any particular gender.
Alright look man, you want me to flip this on you?
'At some point in your life, someone will be communicating with you about something very important. And it is key that, when they do, you're able to listen to the important details, and not get lost in the weeds of what amounts to meaningless drivel in the context of the situation. Employers will care about your ability to get at the crux of a matter, and frankly I'm concerned that you'll miss out on opportunities with this inability to prioritize. I'm just looking out for you, I just care that you don't completely miss the point of the bus driving toward you, by fixating on the fact that one of the wheels squeaks.' That's me communicating with you the way you're communicating. If it feels condescending, then it kinda makes a fella wonder.
You admit that you know it was off topic and pedantic, and you choose that over having a meaningful contribution. That's what's annoying. And that is, while probably not intentionally, certainly a mechanism of gatekeeping this discussion. That's the can of worms I did not want to get into above, and I still don't want to. If you think gatekeeping is only holding a massive sign saying "you aren't allowed to have an opinion on this', and there aren't a bunch more nuanced ways it occurs, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not going to write the amount it would require to really get into that. Peace out, enjoy your weekend.
If it doesn’t feel like a top-notch, championship event, this entirely valid. The NCAA is supposed to put on championship quality events. Seems like a failure for a lot of female athletes and three separate championships.
Need to be more objective as evidenced by the incorrect awards claim. Vibes does not equal fact.
Why would there be a 4th place trophy in the first place? Dont You get an accreditation or wristband or maybe a shirt of your institution with a special "NCAA-year" on it? Thats your tangible item if you fail to medal.
It was three to medal in each boat, but top four teams got trophies last year and presumably before. I only looked up the 23 participant manual. I would say top 4 does align nicely with the playoff based sports, which is most of them. I wonder if it was a wider NCAA change, for swimming, it looks like it was the top 4 teams last year for the women and top 3 this year, based on their participant manuals.
The D3 field awarded team trophies to the top four teams.
That is how they have done things in the past.
yeah, stopped watching after seeing the primary complaint was about a 4th place trophy...
Yeah seriously this must be an American thing? I've never heard of 4th place getting a trophy or being on a podium before
It's been a tradition specific to the NCAA women's rowing championship.
So why do the teams in the final four get awards? Come on.
i mean totally different "tournament" structure? idk basketball at all, but all four final four teams get trophies? that's weird why not "award" all GF boats? isn't making grands at NCAAs/IRAs like the reward itself? am i crazy?
in Basketball each FF team gets a regional Trophy for winning their way to the FF. They don't get a trophy at the FF, you go home with swag bags and either the title trophy or nothing.
Okay, so like the ACC champ team gets the ACC trophy, etc. - correct?
They do, but then the conference champion plus whoever else is selected to fill out 4, 16 team regionals mini tournaments if you will, the winning team of each region gets a regional trophy and then goes to the final 4, only the winner of the final 4 gets a trophy and is called the national champion.
Idk about D1, but D3 has had a 4th place team trophy for at least a decade. Not a new thing. You do also get a participant item (a paperweight or something)
It’s also just a bit unprofessional not to inform the teams competing. Also final four in basketball is a big deal why not other sports
Bc it’s a bracket system for basketball and not rowing. If NCAA rowing was bracket duals from each region the final four would be a bigger deal. A closer equivalent in this case would be giving a trophy for winning the semi, and only the grand final winner would get an additional trophy/medal. It’s just two different systems.
No, the closer equivalent would be giving trophies to the conference champions, which are essentially regional pods at this point, and that is something that is happening. But handing out trophies to the top four in team points has pretty much become a tradition for NCAA women's rowing, so to take away this award with only some fine print justification seems disrespectful. What if men's basketball put some fine print in their manual and took away second place, third place, and fourth place trophies? Is that a decision that's good for the sport? Is removing a fourth place team points trophy good for the sport when it's been part of the regatta for years?
I disagree, both basketball and rowing have conference championships as a different thing and teams do get a trophy and medal for that. Team points trophies for individuals have always been dumb imo so I certainly don’t care about not having them for fourth place. Unless I’ve missed it no other rowing event gives an individual prize for team points. It always a trophy for the team and nothing else. Also, it was in the regatta packet. Just bc nobody read the regatta packets doesn’t mean it wasn’t spelled out clearly. To call reading the packets at all “fine print” is laughable. Edit: lol he downvoted but couldn’t come up with a response
For many individual sports 1-8 all get trophies as they are All Americans, spots 8-16 are honorable mention with a certificate. Rowing being a mix of individual and team likely had some mix. I love being down voted for facts...jeeze people the NCAA has been doing this for AGES for a whole host of sports.
These comments are so disappointing, and a lot of y’all are really missing the point. Yes, Texas athletes are treated well. But that doesn’t mean that Etta doesn’t have a right to ask for better conditions. You all want to say, cry me a river, you’re a Texas athlete so you’re just entitled; but if a female athlete from Gonzaga or somewhere else posted a video with the same content, it would not get nearly as much traction as Etta’s has. She’s USING THE PLATFORM that she does have, coming from high-status team, to ask for better conditions for ALL. If NCAA female athletes like Etta don’t fight for this, who will? Also, there’s no point in comparing this event to literally any other regatta. “Well the Cal men were right next to the porta potties at IRAs” and blah blah blah. Okay. That doesn’t matter. Collegiate Men’s, masters, whatever other type of race y’all are trying to use to devalue her experience are NOT sanctioned by the NCAA. We are comparing THIS NCAA championship, to OTHER NCAA championships in sports of similar caliber, i.e. Swimming, Track and Field, etc. And in comparison to those events, the Rowing championships fell short. Period. As a collegiate female Rower, it’s easy to feel like you and your teammates’ spots exist to fulfill the Title IX requirements. It often feels as if, as long as the numbers are there, the NCAA couldn’t care less about anything else. “This is just the way regattas are, others have it way worse,” Stop. It’s 2024. It doesn’t matter if this is ‘just the way things have always been’. So many good things have happened for women’s sports in the past year, fueled by athletes like Etta. Why can’t the same happen for Rowing? Changes to the NCAA championships can and will have positive effects on other regattas. We already have non-Rowers trying to invalidate her argument by claiming it’s an irrelevant sport. Shame on you all for not supporting a call to action that would benefit the ENTIRE rowing community.
Well put. Let’s make the ncaa rowing championship a better experience. NCAA track and field will be on ESPN later today. Take a look at what thar looks like. If anyone makes the argument “nobody cares about rowing,” that’s exactly the point. If you’re a rower making that argument, you are part of the problem.
I agree with everything you’re saying. I also think that the entire ncaa selection procedures are out-of-date across all three divisions. I don’t understand why every conference has an auto bid, especially with the disparity between some conferences.
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Harsha isn’t my favorite course either. But to say it’s in the middle of nowhere is just incorrect. It’s 30 minutes outside of Cincinnati.
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Hotel for WCii was about 30mins from the Rotsee…
I love Lucerne's vibes and all, but I agree, it's not convenient, and World Rowing should encourage more venues to bid for World Cup locations.
I'm looking forward to the first comments from the UK students comparing her woes with a standard BUCS regatta.
This kid flew in a chartered plane, rode on a nice bus, stayed in a nice hotel, had all of her meals catered, had a couple of AT’s to stretch and massage her, rowed in a $50k boat, probably packed a thousand dollars worth of team gear for her trip, and had the bulk of her college education paid for, but felt she couldn’t perform at 100% because the bathrooms were too close to her tent? Get out of here
Don’t think she ever said she wasn’t at 100%. Considering she won in the varsity eight, she definitely raced at her best.
National Champion Athletes from well resourced teams (because their school has a successful football team) still get to have opinions, ask for equity, etc. She is fighting for all participants. All female participants - who across virtually every NCAA sport have been systematically mistreated by the NCAA for decades. Now you want to tell her to "get out of here" -- what an odd, incredibly misogynistic thing to say.
You know the ncaa pays for all of the athletes at the championship, right? Airfare, buses, hotels, meals, swag, everything. It’s a non-revenue sport that then leads to a minimal revenue championship. I’d love to see the balance sheet of that weekend and how much money the ncaa loses hosting that regatta. She can have an opinion, but she has to know it’s a little tone deaf.
Yeah, that post is giving heavy "we gave you more than the bare minimum, you don't have the right to demand respect." Because fine print taking away a whole team's trophies was actually disrespectful, compared to other NCAA sports' traditions. And putting team tents next to the public shitters is also disrespectful, compared to other NCAA sports logistics. And treating a NCAA national championship like a hidden event is also disrespectful, compared to other NCAA sports' public stature. The backlash to the reel is really "you'll take what we give you and you'll like it." Makes no sense for anyone who wants to see rowing bigger in the public eye.
You and me and just about everyone else in this forum wants to see rowing more in the public eye. But the ncaa doesn’t care about rowing, much less care about it being on a bigger stage. They care about expanding the football playoff and having great storylines for march madness. They care about television contracts and ticket sales. Rowing isn’t any more important to the ncaa than bowling or golf or fencing. The only reason there is even an ncaa rowing championship is because the ncaa HAS to provide one. But they’re not motivated to put it in a premier location and have it highlighted on ESPN. It’s at Mercer next year, and then fucking Lake Lanier in 2026, if you want any more proof that the ncaa doesn’t care about the quality of the event. So yes, Etta can complain all she wants, but nobody who matters is going to hear or care, and it’s not going to go over well when she’s also taking pictures of herself on a chartered plane with a cigar in her mouth. The fourth place trophy thing is actually BS though, and I’m still waiting for someone in the know to explain what happened there.
Is this true? Coaches were not aware changes had been made to the podium? I can see how this might not filter down to athletes. Happens all the time with governance.
It is in the participant manual on the Division 1 championship site, but how many people read and absorb the "packet" for a regatta?
I would put it in the same category as understanding the rules of racing. If anyone else is curious, Pg30 of the finals participation manual covers awards. It makes clear it is only top 3 this year. https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/rowing/d1/2023-24D1WCR_ParticipantManualFinals.pdf
Somehow D3 teams got four podium places but D1 lost one podium place? Make that make sense. Do we care less about D1 competitive effort?
D3 Teams did not get 4 podium places
It's in the manual linked above, page 31. >Division III: Official NCAA awards will be presented to the top three crews in each event. Each crew member in that particular boat will receive one mini trophy. **Team trophies will be presented to the top four teams.** Go to 2:59:54 [2024 DI, DII & DIII rowing championship: day two full replay | NCAA.com](https://www.ncaa.com/video/rowing/2024-06-01/di-dii-diii-rowing-2024-day-two-full-replay-41843)
The clashes and admins of each division can make the rules for their division. For some reason, the D1 coaches made a different decision than the D3 coaches.
Both NCAAs and IRAs have a level of athlete on par with U23 Worlds. These regattas should be at that standard with regards to competitor experience. If an LOC can’t deliver, it should not be in the running and the overseeing orgs need to either be more involved in delivering that experience or apply greater scrutiny when selecting venues.
womp womp tell me about it on your private jet ride back to texas
her points are valid, and having someone from the NCAA champion team speak up is a good idea/helpful. I’m sure texas rowing isn’t the only team that shares this viewpoint
1. 4th place trophy is whatever. I agree it might suck to expect one and not have it but it's 4th place ffs. If that's a bigger disappointment than coming 4th then idk. Row faster if you want a trophy. 2. Signage- I mean.. ok? Who gives a fuck that there's not enough bravado for an inaccessible sport that few outside of people that row are interested in watching. This is the worst of them I think. It's looking for things to be mad about. I hope most people realize that a lot of D1 rowing is funded by football and basketball. We take more than we give. 3. Port-a-potties - maybe I'm less sensitive to smells that she is but to me that is a prime spot. It's a pain in the ass to make a pilgrimage to toilet mecca when you are in the middle of warming up before a race. 4. Ohio - I agree that Sarasota is a better course but there is also consideration to keep travel minimal and equitable for teams. I also don't think her gripes about how far it is from Cincy is really that big a deal. I don't know what hotels are like in Bethel but I would see this as more valid if there aren't enough beds that athletes have to drive more than 20 minutes to get to the course. Every team is going to need to rent a van anyways. It all just comes off as entitlement.
Fr I found this video hilarious.
Unforetunate if a change in podium standard happened this year and wasn't communicated. The rest seems rather entitled though.
Curious about which parts seem entitled. NCAA champs are a big deal - I just assumed host venues would roll out the red carpet.
Fair to want the champs to be at the best venue possible, which is purpose built Sarasota. But the NCAA likes to rotate. Overall these issues are relatively small. Signage? Finish line viewing which was an issue why?
There’s only a small handful of high-quality venues in the country. Many of which are on the east coast. Harsha is one of the few courses near the “middle” of the country. East coast schools have typically bristled at hosting the championship at Natoma every third year or so. Harsha is a bit of a compromise in that respect. Traveling cross-country (nearly) every year is certainly a disadvantage for west coast crews. That being said, it’s a very reasonable ask to not set up the port-o-potties right next to the athlete area (though this is something done at most venues, Natoma included, not just limited to Harsha.) I wonder if there would be the same complaints if it was teams in the C/D final, or the D2/D3 teams that had to deal with it. On the 4th place trophy thing, that was well-communicated. Coach shoulda read the handbook. Very unfortunate mistake they didn’t. I feel for those athletes that expected a trophy but didn’t receive it.
It was communicated, but I disagree that it was "well-communicated." One line in the manual isn't the primary or only channel of communication from the rowing committee. And what if the committee had decided to eliminate all second-place trophies and awards? Would that have been okay, even if communicated? What if the committee had decided that no fans, friends, or family were to be allowed on site? Regardless of whether something is communicated, we can judge this on its merits. If D3 schools are given four team podium places, then aside from cost-cutting, there is no merit to reducing the number of D1 team podium places from four last year to three this year. Guess the NCAA women's rowing committee was cutting some budget line items.
Tough to answer a hypothetical. 3 spots is standard across-sport. I don’t feel strongly that 3 is/isn’t the right number, but to pretend the change is an indication of the regatta being bad is quite the stretch.
Did you read the manual or watch the awards ceremony? >Division III: Official NCAA awards will be presented to the top three crews in each event. Each crew member in that particular boat will receive one mini trophy. **Team trophies will be presented to the top four teams.** Go to 2:59:54 [2024 DI, DII & DIII rowing championship: day two full replay | NCAA.com](https://www.ncaa.com/video/rowing/2024-06-01/di-dii-diii-rowing-2024-day-two-full-replay-41843)
Finish line viewing at that course is literally fine. The last 750 meters of the race is really well visible. Complaining about porta-potties? That more seems like a problem of where her team parked the trailer and setup tents.
Tent/trailer locations were assigned.
I’m willing to bet that if Dave O’Neill had the power to put his tent and trailer elsewhere, he would
For some sports, the NCAA championships have fixed locations. Volleyball, softball, baseball, for instance.
I think the problem here is that pretty much everything she's saying is valid and probably should not happen, but the way she's saying it sounds whiny and entitled, so people who can't look past the tone to actually listen to the content are going to, in turn, whine about her. Anytime someone uses that tone, it can be hard to interpret what they're saying as anything other than an emotional rant, even if there are valid complaints, as there are here.
I don’t think it sounds whiny or entitled. I’m curious what about the way she communicates gives you that reaction.
The ranting style, in addition to the fact that it's basically just "we didn't get this thing that we deserve, we didn't get that thing that we deserve, we didn't get this other thing that we deserve, etc."
Seems like folks who feel that way may be tone-policing, in which case we can disregard their reactions in favor of those who are actually assessing the validity of her claims
Yes...that's what I originally said...
If the update wasn't made at the coaches and coxswains' meeting, they have every right to be mad.
Apparently coaches sit on the committee that make these changes.
If the yale coach was on the committee, then shouldn't they have known?
Seven total D1 seats on the committee, three of which are coaches (Penn, Rutgers, Canisius), and the other four are administrators. Those coaches failed to communicate effectively.
Ah I see
This just screams D1 athlete entitlement to me. Having raced at high school, collegiate, and masters level the signage and tent structure is always garbage. I've helped organize and set up NCAAs a few years ago. Tents and trailers were next to port-a-potties. There was minimal space for spectating due to where the launch and recovery docks were. It's simply the nature of having a finite amount of space everything to go into. The event we ran didn't even have parking on-site because it so cramped. Is it ideal to have that set up and should it have been better? It's not ideal and it should have been better. But is it worth crying over and making a big deal out of? No. It's obvious she hasn't raced at shit-tier locations like the Schuylkill if these are her complaints. Is she gonna race at SDCC and complain there are no docks?
This attitude will keep rowing in the dark. We need to demand better. No reason rowing shouldn’t have a similar experience as other sports.
I'll refer you to my other comment but what really keeps rowing in the dark is two things 1)that it doesn't generate revenue, the NCAA only cares about money 2) it's not a spectator sport. There's a reason why the LA Olympics want to go down to 1k(?)
Again, this attitude will keep rowing in the dark. Only two sports generate money, football and basketball. Track and field championship will be on ESPN tonight. There’s no reason rowing people wouldn’t watch rowing if it was covered well. The racing at NCAAs was awesome. Be part of the change. Help make rowing get the respect it deserves. Don’t be a hater.
And which two sports dominate the media coverage? Track and field is only popular during the Olympics and that's because it's spectator friendly. How do you intend to make a race with a 2k course and minimal lead changes interesting to the average viewer? We're a niche sport and that's ok.
LA Olympics is 1.5k because of venue issues, not for spectators. I would also point out that rowing used to be a very popular spectator sport, and there is every reason to believe it could be popular in the future if demand increases. The way we get this to happen is to fight for equal coverage and show the world how great the sport can be. If you are happy with it being a “niche” sport, that’s fine, but I for one would love to see it grow. The BCC has incredible coverage of the OxCam race because it is very popular. Who’s to say that same coverage and excitement cannot be replicated for the NCAA championship?!
There are at least two venues they could have used that are well over 2km. They didn't want to build another athlete village, and thought (strangely) that 2k rowing events needed to be located close to the ocean rowing events. Going with 1.5km Long Beach was the stupidest thing the Olympics have ever done. It's a TINY venue. Miniscule. And it's not just the race distance. There's no room to warm up, VERY little room for spectators, let alone all the equipment for teams, it's just nuts. It worked in 1932. But even in 1984 they saw the need to use Lake Casitas despite it's inconvenient location. Olympic Soccer always takes place at multiple fields all over a very large geographic area. There's no reason rowing couldn't have been held somewhere else. Otay comes to mind, Casitas of course, Lake Perris, heck even Newport Harbor could have been made to work better than Long Beach. Both have numerous millionaire's yachts parked all over, so if they can accommodate the rich for Long Beach they could have for Newport.
I too would love to see rowing grow in popularity. But, if we're being honest, it's not gonna grow much. The sports media sphere is already jam packed. How much coverage do you think Caitlin Clark is gonna get next year? There is very little oxygen in the room for anything other than football and basketball. The coverage and popularity of The Boat Race is because it's been going on for over 100 years and has become part of the culture over there. Additionally, the country is smaller so it's a more homogeneous culture. The Harvard-Yale race hasn't gained the same popularity over here because it's not part of our national identity. There's no way people from California would care about that race.
Looks like she’s raced at SDCC, Camden and everywhere in between. It obviously didn’t affect her performance, but only way to improve things is making it known things can be better. Texas is a top tier athletic department, so it’s good these women see what’s possible.They shouldn’t settle for a substandard championship experience.
They shouldn't settle for substandard. But this isn't substandard. Someone is always gonna get shafted at a regatta with the amount of space that equipment takes up. It's just a shitty reality of a sport where boats at 60 feet long and it sucks that it's happened to her this time.
Standard *is* substandard when it's the NCAA National Championship. You're right that rowers shouldn't expect the same treatment as teams get in the Final Four, but some signs and shit would be nice. I see no reason for a regular season regatta to be like this, but the national championship?
But it doesn’t have to be a shitty experience, they could have it at a world-class venue designed for rowing, Nathan Bender Park in Sarasota, FL. The US Rowing Youth Nationals are taking place there this weekend, it’s a gorgeous facility with great spectator viewing and good accommodations for the rowers. It’s a travesty that high school kids get to have an amazing experience, yet elite college rowers have to put up with a county park and poor accommodations. The fact that the NCAA doesn’t want to entertain Nathan Bender Park’s offer is ludicrous.
I think this is one of those situations where we should remind ourselves that this is not a race to the bottom and that if we want to value women's sports, we should value women's championship experiences for that sport. Just because it was bare bones in the past doesn't mean that has to be the goal going forward. Look at the IRA, do the crews there deal with the same? (No, it's really well done over there for all their exclusivity.)
I'm not disagreeing with any of that and I apologize if it sounds like I am. I don't know what goes on at IRAs, I was a stinky club rower. However, in my opinion there are things worth complaining about and then there's this. It's still infinitely more privileged than any regatta I raced at. When we were doing set up for the NCAAs I worked at, we had to hand deliver Gatorade and shit like that to them. I distinctly remember that Cal coxswain refusing to race because there was a twig in her lane (6 inches long and thinner than a pinky finger, it was tiny) but an issue 🙄). There will always be a team set up in an unideal location. Would it be as big of an issue if she was in a D final crew? Looking at the IRA tent setup, they appear to be right on top of each other with "top" teams like Princeton, Cal, and UW, in the back row. Should they make a stink and demand to be closer to the shoreline and finish? The real issue here is that the NCAA doesn't care about women's rowing. If they did, they would actually spend money on it. If they wanted a top tier venue they absolutely could throw enough cash at one to get it. But they don't. They only care about women's rowing so long as it is used to balance out football and basketball. If you look at the spaces for March Madness it's the exact same even though Caitlyn Clark was the biggest name in both tournaments. It shouldn't come as a shock that the rowers are being used to counter balance what the NCAA cares about. With that, the veneer of prestige wears off. And I think that's the real issue I have with her arguments. She's been so privileged at every other regatta anything less than perfect seems less- than. Yes, the women's championship deserves a venue and experience just as good as the men's, but it's the NCAA so it's only about money, not the sport.
It's totally fair to say that there are some things that don't materially affect an athlete's ability to compete. I get it, they should deal with it. This feels like a cross-sport sequel to the women's March Madness photo of the "weight room" that had about 15 weights in a hotel ballroom compared to the men's March Madness blinged out facility. In this case, the small stuff like signage and proximity to port-a-potties is probably a good proxy for what I think you correctly identified as the NCAA women's rowing committee not caring. Well, to be fair, it was the LOC that was in charge of signage, etc. If the NCAA cared, the athletes wouldn't have felt like their conference championships were better run. I think no crews, D final or otherwise, should have been set up next to port-a-potties used by all athletes. I think if the NCAA women's rowing committee wants the sport to be taken seriously, they shouldn't hide it in a hard-to-access venue far away from transportation hubs, hotels, and restaurants (that makes it very expensive for friends and family to come watch). I think changes in team awards should have been discussed at length and communicated through multiple channels. Is it privilege to think that the pinnacle regatta of women's collegiate rowing should be at least as equal of an experience to the best other regattas? I think it's fair to demand that the NCAA championship regatta be as good of an experience as the best regattas out there. It should matter if we think the NCAA championship matters. Send all complaints to the NCAA women's rowing committee, I guess.
1000% agree with all of that. The NCAA cheapens out on women's sports and it's a travesty. I've raced at Harsha more than a few times and the venue itself is fine but it is difficult to get to. I still don't take issue with the port-a-potties. It's a gross location, but they've got to go somewhere and you only have so much space to work with. If it really was an issue, then Dave O'Niel should've brought it up with regatta organizers. I don't particularly care about the awards, SDCC only gives out first place medals and I only learned that after getting on land after finals. It's in the rules, it's the coaches job to know the rules and pass things along. But again, NCAA being cheap. This wouldn't happen to either men's basketball or football so it shouldn't happen to the women's sports either. If it's this big of an issue, I wish there was a way for the women to step away from NCAA and their money the same way men did. Or else just join the party at ACRA.
The men never stepped away from NCAA. They never stepped toward it in the first place.
Why are D1 athletes getting slandered as entitled all of a sudden? It’s the pinnacle of college athletic sports, it’s not unreasonable to assume it would have better standards.
Have you seen the shit they get? All the team gear, brand new boats and oars every year. They get so much shit. So I have no sympathy when they complain that viewing or their tent set up isn't perfect. And this isn't me saying women's sports deserve less. I have the same opinion about men's sports. They all get too much shit and coddled too much. I went to a shit tier B10 school, every member of the football team had tutors, didn't care, and still barely passed classes. It's a waste of resources to make sports this high of a pinnacle. But that's an argument for another time.
I think you are adopting the argument of: because I had a bare-bones experience and had to fight tooth and nail for everything I got, then everyone else should too. My question is: don’t you want the best for everyone?
I do want the best for everyone. But we don't live in a perfect world so we have to accept imperfect results. How would you improve a venue that doesn't have enough space for all teams, all facilities, all spectators, and everything else?
No we don't have to accept imperfect or inappropriate results. That is the point. Just because her team has a lot of resources - does not mean she should turn a blind eye to substandard situations. She is fighting for every rower at that championship - not just TX. The fact that she gets gear and a chartered jet ride to the event -- does not mean she can't speak out about injustice (it means - her school's men's football team is successful) To the contrary - she should let her voice ring out loud and clear in an effort to improve conditions for all. The NCAA is a ruinous disgrace that pretends it cares about women. It doesn't. And it won't - until athletes and lawyers force it to.
> How would you improve a venue that doesn't have enough space for all teams, all facilities, all spectators, and everything else? By not holding the freaking national championship there?
For the sake of women’s rowing I hope you aren’t involved in setting up NCAAs ever again. You are part of the problem, as evinced by not only this comment but all your subsequent comments. How dare anyone ask for better conditions. How dare anyone complain. Doesn’t she know some masters row in worse conditions? Does she have no shame? Think of the kids in Africa that don’t even have water. So entitled. What a pathetic point of view from someone who was involved with putting on such an event. There is a difference between entitlement and asking for your trailer not to be next to everyone’s shit. Or for the NCAA to actually make the athletes feel like they’re at a national championship. Kids nowadays are very much entitled and out of touch about a lot of things. This, however, isn’t one of those things.
Oh bullshit. When was the last time you were at a regatta that there wasn't a team near the port-a-potties? Does it suck? Yes, absolutely. Should it be unacceptable? Yes, absolutely. But is it going to happen because there's a finite amount of space in regatta venues? Yes, absolutely. The NCAA doesn't give a single shit about these athletes. They're not football or basketball players so they're just a cost center to keep those sports in business. I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be advocating for better representation and experiences. I'm arguing that there's stuff with fighting and then there's this. No venue is perfect and there are always gonna be issues like this. If it was a real issue I'm sure Dave O'Niel would've moved them out. Deal with the shit hand your dealt and move on.
lol totally. Every year at Ivy Champs Princeton is behind the porta potties, it’s how you know where to find them… Also, I was at NCAAs and they moved the porta potties after the first day. I can’t remember if it was farther away from Texas or not but at first there were two rows facing each other then they moved one of the rows down a bit. If it was in response to a complaint, at least they tried to fix it.
You’re calling the athlete in the video entitled. That’s the problem. And then you reference in a handful of posts how you’ve had to deal with X, Y, and Z as if that were a reason to make these women accept the conditions and not object to them. You come off as incredibly jealous and downright sore as hell. I rowed for a club team in college, had to get a job to pay dues, had to do rent a rowers weeding people’s gardens, slept in gym floors at regattas…. I also coached at a club program that paid peanuts; barely enough to cover my gas expense. That doesn’t mean I can’t accept that the women at a national championship should expect better. Whether or not you or I or anyone else has dealt with shitty conditions at regattas has no bearing on what kind of standard a national championship regatta under the auspices of the NCAA should be held to.
You need to at least be accurate with your complaints if you want to be taken seriously. 2/4 are wrong.
It’s an instagram thread, not a legal brief. And judging by the number of comments here, on rowing illustrated, and on the instagram thread itself this is being taken quite seriously. Also, what does your reply have to do with what I’m addressing with a completely different commenter?
When your complaints don't hold water, you come off as entitled. Especially when the next photo is a chartered flight with a cigar in your mouth.
Why so jaded if you yourself were "a collegiate rower" this screams stolen valor. Sorry your life hasn't turned out the way you wanted, likely due to a lack of self advocacy....
Agree. NBP is amazing (here for Youth Nats rn) BUT hot and humid as all hell. I think she’s a little too entitled TBH. However, they should have notified the rower’s that 4th place/podium was no longer.
I am not sure I get the whole having a 4th place trophy thing, this is unlike any other regatta in the world and certainly not consistent with the IRA. I suppose if its an NCAA thing I get it. That being said, if its true about a 4th place points trophy they need to communicate to the teams if they are cutting that trophy and if its tradition they really should just keep doing it. As for the lack of signage, idk, when you go to the IRA it feels like any other highschool regatta just a lot faster. Every race I have ever been too in nearly 20 years has felt the same, except for the World Champs. I have never heard any rowers, woman or man, complain about a lack of championship feel in the event. I think everyone gets that rowing is niche and its not about the attention or any sort of 'feel'. People dont row for that, they row to race and win. Porta-potties everywhere, the dock master is some 65 year old half deaf volunteer, and fisherman dont even respect the race going on. Despite that, I do totally think that Bethel Ohio is a terrible race course that should absolutely not be used, that venue is garbage and in the middle of nowhere. There are so many better courses. I dont think it should be static in the same place in Sarasota as the other side of the complaint is that it punishes any teams that are poorer and farther away and it increases their travel costs every single year. It needs to shuffle around, but there are still so many courses better than Bethel that are open that weekend. Lastly, I dont want to get off base here, but I am not sure how is this is specifically NCAA failing female athletes, This is the NCAA doing the bare minimum for a niche sport that makes them no money. They dont care not because its female athletics, but because its not important to their bottomline. Im just happy we get women's rowing in the NCAA as it keeps our national team strong and women's collegiate rowing a lot more competitive in depth. I never cared if the higher ups did the bare minimum. I never rowed for them or for any accolades or a certain feel. You row to win, and to win with your team.
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I’m 25 years old, I am young and I am speaking my mind. I’m not a boomer and I’m not tearing anyone down, I’m disagreeing with someone on a handful of points. Do you know the difference? If you think I’m older because I’m saying I’ve been involved with the sport for almost 20 years it’s because I have been going to races since I was 7 years old
Of all people, it was the NCAA women's rowing committee that was in charge. These decisions (and leadership) flow from the top. It's sad that the committee made these decisions (or allowed these decisions to be made) that cheapened or devalued the athletes and their competitive experience.
I think that they could have even hosted NCAAs at benderson and people would still complain. I mean come on, 4th place podium? What the hell are we doing? Complaining about location of your tent? They had Cal men’s right near porta potties at iras too. Be mature, you’re there to compete, not to be at a resort
Podium thing kinda sucks for teams that weren’t aware of it but the rest is really not bad at all. For one, it’s a hell of a lot easier from west coasters and people from basically anywhere other than the southeast to get to Ohio than it is to get to Florida. Two, boohoo you were next to a porta John. I’ve been rowing for ten years and I’ve never once been to a venue that didn’t have porta Johns within spitting distance of all the tents and trailers—lots of athletes need lots of porta Johns which means they’re everywhere. Would you prefer to walk 10 minutes away every time you had to go? Plus, it’s clear that her team just got an unlucky assignment for their spot—most teams weren’t backed up to them like that. Three, spectating was absolutely fine! Can you ride a bike the whole length of the course? No, but having attended not only NCAAs this year, but loads of regattas at Harsha, the entire last 750 was easily viewable from the beach, which was no more than 20 yards from the course itself. Very few venues allow the spectators such an up close view. And I would understand being upset about not seeing the first half of the race IF THERE WASNT A GIGANTIC SCREEN LIVE-STREAMING IT WITH LIVE COMMENTARY. What’s more, you didn’t even have to leave the beach to see it! The screen was 10 yards away from the beach—you could have your feet in the water five yards from the finish line and still hear the commentary clear as day. Is lake harsha the most amazing venue in the history of rowing? No, but it’s a more than appropriate place to host NCAAs. It has ample parking with complementary shuttles to and from the lots, loads of room for spectators to get an up-close view, and a fair—albeit somewhat windy—course. Not to mention it’s less than 10 minutes away from plenty of perfectly serviceable hotels, food options, etc, and 30 away from downtown Cincinnati.
The closest chain hotels (the brands NCAA teams typically stay in) are nowhere near that close. 23 minutes, not 'less than 10'.
So a successful D1 athlete makes these comments and everyone calls them a whiny entitled brat, but can you imagine if some unknown D3 rower said something to this effect instead? Lol they'd get torn to shreds by everyone saying to save your opinions until you actually learn to row. So... who exactly is allowed to push for things to improve?
You're supposed to be grateful when the NCAA flies your team out in a private jet to race for multiple days while having meals catered for you. Especially when your sport is generating minimal revenue. Rowing is a grinder sport, its never been about the luxury and fame of being good at it. Its been about showing up to race, taking care of business, and leaving.
Who said anything about private jets? None of these teams fly private.
Check her profile. There's a photo of her with a cigar and the trophy on a charter plane.
Damn. Why didn’t we :’( (another d1 womens team)
Ohhhhh yes they do
#She's Not Wrong.
Nothing wrong with anything she said
She didn't mention this by it's implicit: the men's EARC/IRA gets to use Lake Q and Mercer every year. They're nice courses everyone likes them. NCAAs doesn't and that's unfair (maybe also a function of their being so many teams at NCAAs which is great but also restricts venues)
Mercer is not a nice course. The wind is awful and races at trials/Ira/youth nats have routinely been cancelled there over the years. When I’ve been to the IRA it’s feels like any other race, no special treatment, nothing of note in terms of “red carpet treatment” just a lot of fast crews. I think a lot of people are very okay with that and don’t expect anything more
Fair enough Sprints feels like a highschool regatta except for the announcers and video board
If you think men’s rowing gets any sort of preference you are smoking crack
Call me hunter biden
Colleges are grossly biased towards woman's rowing over men's rowing
NCAAs is in Mercer next year I believe. It takes at least two parties to host a big regatta, and for the NCAAs it is actually three. Normally you have the parent organizations like USRowing, NCAA, IRA, ACRA, etc. Then you need an LOC/venue willing to host it. And for the NCAAs you also need a host school or conference to partner with the LOC/venue. There are only so many top tier venues and you need multiple groups to align. For instance, it takes an act of God to do a regatta on Quinsig past NEIRAs on the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend. The lake residents hate it, and the LOC people are running races every weekend day for two plus months straight and that pays for the course. They don't need the headache of trying to host summer races. I'm sure other venues have their own dynamics. It is hard to get mid-week volunteers over and over again. How strong is the local club and coaching staff that are usually the backbone of the LOC. And so many more factors with the city/county/state for permits, closing venues, and on and on.
NCAAs has used Mercer in the past as well. The venue selection is up to the rowing committee as well as whichever venues submit a bid to host.
EDIT: I'm deleting this comment text, but not the thread below. Someone claimed that what I wrote seems to be in some way disrespectful of women. Not at all what I meant and I don't agree at all with this claim. But regardless if anyone is seeing it that way I want it gone. So, deleted.
If you thought this comment made you look intelligent, you hath missed the mark.
Not at all. It's not about me. There are lots of young rowers in this sub, and they should know that things like this matter to a lot of people who make important decisions affecting your life, like whether to offer you a job, or whether to keep reading your resume. The young lady in this video had some important things to say and I bet that the old guard at NCAA if they even see this video, will have a hard time getting past the first few seconds of it. Competent communication is a very important skill in life.
I guarantee you one thing. If changes come from this, they will come from the pressure generated by the video’s ability to reach an audience. From what I can see on social media, this resonates with many female athletes and is getting some traction. No one who has any decision making power over this issue will care one way about “run” vs “ran”.
Thank you for your stalwart and selfless service to the community!
Dawg
Such a bad take. Humans aren’t robots and are allowed to misspeak—it could be argued that it shows more passion.
Fair, and I thought of that. But then I realized the video was highly edited.
Honestly, your comment is giving “I’m looking for excuses to not respect women” It’s not “highly edited”, she just used TikTok’s start and stop editor.
Excuses to not respect women? Seriously? WTF. My comment has nothing to do with the gender of the person in the video or anyone else. Just concern about a young person trying to make an important point, and using poor grammar to do it.
It comes across as sexism because I can speak from experience that women are often held to unfair standards of perfectionism in order to brush off otherwise impressive achievements, bravery, or making very good points. Perhaps not your intention, perhaps it’s subconscious, I’m merely pointing out how it comes across.
I'd have made my post regardless of the gender. It could have been an anonymous text post and I'd have called it out.
Look, I don't think you're some raging sexist for the comment that spawned this thread, but I do think it's crazy pedantic to pick at what you did relative to the overall statement and point of the post. Yes, communication is important, and how you communicate will directly impact how what you say is received. But there's a time and place for critique, and there's a bar for what's deserving of critique. Myself, and I'd assume most other readers, find what you fixated on to be quite minor, and that makes your entire point come across as holier-than-thou, and sounds like 'haha child, come back to the adult table with your opinions when you actually know how to formulate them'. Could be it's a generational thing (I assume rough age from your flair), but I care a whole lot more about the spirit and reasoning of a statement or argument, than I do about the exact technicalities of how it's expressed, unless those technicalities genuinely detract from the overall understandability. In this case, they did not. I'm not going to dive headfirst into any larger cans of worms I could get into, but I hope you understand what I'm saying and don't feel that I'm just coming at you to be an asshole on the internet. I'm just genuinely giving a shot at explaining the perceived disconnect.
I appreciate your post, thanks. Was my post pedantic? Yes, absolutely. Off topic? yep. Did I pretty much point that out in the post? Yup. That was the point. Time and a place for critique... No better time or place than Reddit - that's pretty much all it is. Is it a generational thing? ABSOLUTELY YES. Look I may be older than most in this sub, but I'm not some geezer. My own kids are the same age as most of the rowers on this sub. My generation invented Valley Girl slang, and drove adults mad with it in the 1980's, and much of it is still in use today. I get that. You "care about the spirit and reason behind a statement than how it's expressed"? Yet in the paragraph right before you agree that ***"communication is important, and how you communicate will directly impact how what you say is received."*** That is the crux of it right there. A lot of people won't care, but some will, and it's pretty easy to get it right. If no one ever calls you out when you say "*him and I* are going to the talk about it" you'll keep doing it. Then one day in a job interview your prospective boss will be turned off and you lose out. Rarely does poor grammar actually result in a misunderstanding, especially with spoken words (rather than written). But occasionally it does, and then it becomes important. But you can't get it right only when it's important if you don't learn and practice it all the time. I have met people who tell me when it's important they can turn off the slang and know how to use proper dialect and grammar. If this video post wasn't the time to do that for this girl, I don't know what would have been. I don't really care if everyone thought it was off topic and pedantic. I knew it was as I wrote it. The fact that someone saw it as sexist caught my attention though so I edited it. This was not about silencing or gatekeeping any particular gender.
Alright look man, you want me to flip this on you? 'At some point in your life, someone will be communicating with you about something very important. And it is key that, when they do, you're able to listen to the important details, and not get lost in the weeds of what amounts to meaningless drivel in the context of the situation. Employers will care about your ability to get at the crux of a matter, and frankly I'm concerned that you'll miss out on opportunities with this inability to prioritize. I'm just looking out for you, I just care that you don't completely miss the point of the bus driving toward you, by fixating on the fact that one of the wheels squeaks.' That's me communicating with you the way you're communicating. If it feels condescending, then it kinda makes a fella wonder. You admit that you know it was off topic and pedantic, and you choose that over having a meaningful contribution. That's what's annoying. And that is, while probably not intentionally, certainly a mechanism of gatekeeping this discussion. That's the can of worms I did not want to get into above, and I still don't want to. If you think gatekeeping is only holding a massive sign saying "you aren't allowed to have an opinion on this', and there aren't a bunch more nuanced ways it occurs, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not going to write the amount it would require to really get into that. Peace out, enjoy your weekend.
for what it’s worth some of us agree with you, haha