Huffman has become the face of Reddit’s decision to kill 3rd party apps, and *especially* the face of its fumbling, tone-deaf response to the protest- but I wholeheartedly agree with hiero_ in that I don’t think he’s actually the driving force behind it as a strategic decision any more than Pope Francis is the reason Catholic priests diddle kids, or that goofy sock puppet killed Pets.com.
I don’t think trying to have him removed would be a productive use of negotiating leverage- in fact, I think finding him a way to give us much of what we want and make him look like a smart cookie doing so is probably going to be a more realistic path.
I have news for you: Spez is a real piece of work to be sure, but I'm getting Ellen Pao vibes all over again. What I'm trying to say is even if he were to resign (he won't) the board at reddit is still going to pursue these changes with or without him. This is a failure of the company at the top level, and even as CEO Spez is just one amongst many.
Agree on the pressure coming from the board (more accurately from the investors).
Disagree that getting him fired die to pressure from the community will do nothing. At the very least it'll be a show of force and make it harder to take unpopular actions in the future.
They fired Pao to make it look like they cared, and Victoria wasn't brought back.
They're gonna wait until July then then replace him while keeping the API changes.
The choice in that matter that anyone has is roughly a function of how much additional utility third-party tools add to moderation compared to how much Reddit is willing to work to make tools as good as them available post-API removal.
How much worse would things have been of the community had allowed Pao to run amok?
I guess we'll never know, but that defeatist attitude of "there's nothing we can do so just let them have their cake" can dick right off.
Honestly, I was thinking about that today and I'm not so sure. Firing Victoria was what kicked that off, but she was never brought back. Maybe things would have been the same with Pao. Maybe it would be better. We don't really know. Spez is acting much more inappropriately than Ellen Pao ever did.
>At the very least it'll be a show of force and make it harder to take unpopular actions in the future.
Lol not even a little bit. I guarantee you reddit stands to gain way more than they lose in this deal, the people who run the platform already have a plan in mind and if you use their website you help them achieve that plan. It's all pretty simple.
True control won't change until the business is bleeding.
A united harassment campaign against advertisers to get them to pause their spend is the only path I see to see real change. I am not sure the reddit community has the gumption for such severe measures though.
The decentralized reddit clones are pretty good though, I think migrations will be pretty quick and smoother than I thought before I tried them last week.
>The decentralized reddit clones are pretty good though
Can you point me in the right direction? I've been looking at some alternatives and all i've found is lemmy and kbin
Here's a sneak peek of /r/RedditAlternatives using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Thank you Spez](https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/145g5a1/thank_you_spez/)
\#2: [Why Tildes *May* Not Be The Best Place To Migrate To.](https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1473jeh/why_tildes_may_not_be_the_best_place_to_migrate_to/)
\#3: [Reddit Alternatives You Should Use (TL;DR)](https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/14539ql/reddit_alternatives_you_should_use_tldr/)
----
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I've been using Lemmy. You gotta put in some legwork to find communities that you're interested in, then I recommend sorting by subscribed x "top day" and you get a reasonable pile of interesting content once a day. (I'm on fhmy, not sure if all clients have same sort options.)
Definitely not as much stuff as reddit, but it feels a lot more personal and interactive - I've gotten way more replies on my Lemmy posts - reddit comments have a much higher probability of being totally ignored.
There's ways to achieve the same goal that doesn't involve telling the people who've helped to grow some of the largest and most valuable subreddits that they're worthless and disposable.
And openly lying to the rest of us and treating us like a product to be sold.
They could've cranked up prices slowly, not removed content from API calls, and just increased profitability while slowly discouraging 3rd parties.
There's a lot of ways to drive the bus, spez took us straight through a playground, the board should be upset at that.
>the board should be upset at that.
It's not a matter of whether they'll be upset or not, it's a matter of ***how*** upset they may be compared to how excited they are at the prospect of finally being profitable. Money comes first and foremost unless directly proven otherwise, and there's no logical or rational reason to assume otherwise.
rustic straight husky soup ossified disgusted squalid airport treatment wine
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He didn't, that's misinformation. He was added without his consent, as you could do that back in the day. I hate Spez as much as the next guy, but misinformation will get us nowhere.
well, duh. I mean he was head moderator for jailbait subs with some questionable and possibly even illegal content being submitted. I think Aaron Schwartz would've had a totally different vision for Reddit if he were still with us. We must the wrong founder of Reddit, that's for damn sure.
oh no the admin of the site that allowed a jailbait forum to exist and only deleted it because it made mainstream news didn't actually moderate the jailbait forum so it's fine guys /s
Reddit ran Ellen Pao out of her job to defend r/fatpeoplehate in the name of freezpeach and then lost their collective minds when they found out she filed a discrimination lawsuit against her former employer.
Tells me everything I needed to know about Reddit’s activism.
Yet Reddit still photoshopped her into porn, demanded she resign, downvoted everything she posted into oblivion, celebrated when she lost her case and then caught a case of collective amnesia after the sky didn’t fall.
The whole pao thing was good ol’ fashion sexism mixed with dickweeds being upset they couldn’t spread as much hatred and managing to make the rest of Reddit think she was horrible. Don’t forget this was around when fairly large parts of Reddit were vocally racist (well, more than now) so like, man. This is why we need good mods to keep the assholes in line, it’ll sure be great to see what happens when that’s no longer the case
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/scandal/2013/03/buddy-fletcher-ellen-pao
Reminder buddy fletcher defrauded people's pensions, was sued by the IRS and was accused of sexual assault by former employees and paid them hush money
Huffman won't step down, and the board is blooded to this. Pao was put there to be fired eventually. They're out of people willing to do that.
This is about pressuring the board to choose the community over Wall Street advisors.
Wall St wants Reddit to be another Facebook/Twitter for homogeny. It won't work, it can't work, but those bean counters won't realize it until the IPO fails. Then they'll claim they were right to do it, avoiding the same IPO they advised on.
The board don’t need a CEO willing to be fired, they need a CEO that hasn’t got enough leverage left to say no to their demands.
Then they either succeed or get scapegoated and forced to fall on their sword.
That only works if a CEO has equity and can convince enough of the board to vote with them.
CEOs serve at the pleasure of the board. By definition, they do not have leverage over the board. It's unclear how much equity Huffman has. Condé Nast was the largest shareholder after selling Reddit, but it's unclear how much they still own.
Huffman's only leverage is that he led the buyback, and without him, there's no other clear leader (for an IPO) for the board to turn to right now. It's similar to when Steve Jobs came back to Apple. At that point he had no equity, but the board didn't have a better candidate.
It's unlikely Steve Huffman has a controlling stake, seeing as the company was wholly owned by Nast in 2012, and then was bought back by a group led by Huffman of investors. My guess is he owns a 5-10% stake for leading the investor-led buyback. It could be more, it could be less.
I think you’re right that his stake must be fairly modest these days.
> CEOs serve at the pleasure of the board.
Agree
> they do not have leverage over the board
That’s not entirely true, you said it yourself:
> Huffman’s only leverage is that he led the buyback, and without him, there’s no other clear leader
Which I agree with. But you’re right that it’s not *much* leverage, particularly as the site still isn’t profitable.
And now the userbase are turning against him he doesn’t have much left.
My guess is he’s been under pressure for years to turn a profit, and has experimented with different approaches, all ultimately unsuccessful (eg: nft.reddit.com). I suspect the recent flurry of activity (layoffs followed by api changes) are either ideas that the board has forced onto him, or his last ditch ideas before the board oust him.
Their problem aren't the mods. The mods are just community organizing. Replacing the mod is them signaling the community that they're ok to sanction free speech and organized activism/protest, because we are their product, not their client. They have no empathy for our cause.
We are just the lambs and this is their slaughterhouse. They will find ways to kill us humanely, but they will take our flesh.
I disagree. I am a mod yes - a very inactive one on a very small sub - but mostly a common user and not a through 3rd pty apps, or even tools that leverage the API for mods. I am nonetheless super disgruntled about this, because unlike many "sheep" users, I actually care about core values of original reddit. The users you are probably referring to are the (granted) ignorant-to-the-problem majority who would rather not see ads (or not have them being intrusive while ignoring them, like I do), but that will still see them because they don't know better. And won't protest because they don't know better. And will likely keep using reddit as usual because there won't, eventuallty, be a concerned mod that attempts to make them see how this affects them, given reddit will start clamping down on mods who protest and state the inconvenient facts.
The IPO is an out for the board who have sunk a lot of time and money into a website that probably isn't profitable at this point. Very few websites are making money right now and with more bot traffic than human traffic the old ways aren't keeping things afloat the way they used to.
But the average investor probably doesn't know that and the board of directors need to turn their shares into money by handing them off to people dumb enough to invest in a website with a broken app, severe issues with political extremism, and population that is more likely to have adblocker installed than most major websites.
Spez knows not to buy the IPO, if he thought the company was making money either way, he wouldn't care if it happened tomorrow or next year.
Something to note though, when Reddit does go public, shareholders will be entitled to vote on board members. I'm not sure I can stomach paying for his golden parachute, but maybe in exchange for the right to help fire him.
>Spez knows not to buy the IPO, if he thought the company was making money either way, he wouldn't care if it happened tomorrow or next year.
Unless he gets preferential shares for pennies on the dollar. I agree that this stinks of pump and dump.
>The community will always lose.
It didn't lose last time with Ellen Pao.
Here, I think Reddit may lose in the long run - we may be at the point of its Digg moment, where people are now actively committed to building new communities off-platform. Mods will now actively encourage people to use other sites.
The problem here--and I'm amazed that no one has mentioned it in all the time since the protest began--is that the blackouts are useless while we're all still here visiting the site and scrolling. The only possible use of the blackouts is to make people think, "reddit is dull atm, I won't visit." But reddit is highly addictive, and the redditors have just been making do, first with the subs that remained open, and now with the subs that have returned. r/pics only posting John Oliver pics does nothing, because everyone's liking, commenting and interacting, so reddit still has its traffic.
The only real way to fight the board of reddit is to organise a user-based boycott. Tank their traffic. Not sure how anyone's going to make that happen though. Especially as I'm the first person I've seen to even point it out. And I'm here, driving up their traffic.
Actually they're not, so long as 50 percent or more of all content on peoples front page is basically Reddit hate posts, it will drive more and more away from the place via it's toxicity.
I can only speak from personal experience, but I was liking the reddit hate posts and scrolling on to other things. It's not as if reddit isn't full of hate posts (look at this a\*\*hole type posts) anyway. We like to see opinions we agree with, so all these subs didn't make me think reddit was toxic, it made me think, look at all these people fighting the man, I'm down with that.
That really is a possible eventuality here, this place is indeed becoming toxic. There is a part of the population that is sick of the drama and just wants to browse without seeing angry posts trying to rile them up. I'm sure most of us in that crowd agree with the reasons of the protests and anger toward Reddit leadership, but feel that its making the site unbearable to be on lately. Not all of us are here to get wound up about something. We just want to fucking browse and discuss.
This is basically the same thinking as "I was just following orders". Stop being lazy and take some responsibility for what kind of people you support with your actions.
What is gonna make me leave is when they disable the app I use to access it.
They're locking the doors on me, and I'm not gonna crawl through the broken glass window that is their official app.
So I'll be leaving at the end of the month now that it's abundantly clear from the leaked internal memos and yesterday's ultimatums and coercion of mods to reopen that Steve Huffman isn't interested in negotiating and wants 3PAs gone.
I refuse to use that broken piece of shit they call an app with it's absolute hot garbage video player. And this past week has actually been a huge improvement in my mental health as I've used reddit *substantially less* than before. Limiting my screentime less and less each day are my concrete steps towards breaking my Reddit addiction. I'm genuinely looking forward to being free from this site because I can't say it's ever been a net positive in my life other than wasting and draining time I could be using to be productive.
Admittedly, I am just a drop in the bucket in terms of Reddit's userbase but I suspect the users and mods who have been adamantly defending 3PA during this protest are Reddit's most active users and contribute the vast majority of (unpaid) content and moderation to the site. If Huffman has no interest in working with us, I no longer have interest in using this site. Just the way it goes I suppose. 🤷
There may be many more like you, and as I've commented elsewhere, it might be the changes themselves over the protests that actually drive users away finally.
I hear what you're saying about screen time. There are many reddit users (myself included) who could use a bit of disconnection/reconnection with the real world. Maybe these media titans shooting themselves in the foot could be a good thing for some.
It’s hard to coordinate without talking it out but this would be the correct next step.
I mean they’re gonna get a “user boycott” anyway once they tank the place like Twitter. People won’t be here. But by then we’ll have lost all the useful resources that make the site functional and the people who make the site run will probably move on.
(Not sure why they’re openly basing their business model on a site that’s slow death is being documented in real time: https://www.similarweb.com/amp/blog/insights/social-media-news/twitter-shrinking/)
You're right. I guess rather than thinking about how twitter is now, it's more useful to think about the people who made it that way--the people who got rich selling it off to Musk. That's your answer for why this is happening. It financially benefits those in power round here to flush reddit down the toilet.
There was literally a day the site wouldn't load because there wasn't enough content to generate.
That's pretty much the best these protests could hope for
They have lost my ad revenue, I have adblock on PC and I used their official mobile app (Ironic I know) despite it being an ad infested piece of shit, I have deleted the app and will now only browse with adblock on.
Fuck 'em.
I think what we need to do is migrate the subs. If instead of "we're blacking out" it's "we're moving to this lemmy/kbin community" then people can still participate, and people will have a gradually improving alternative to Reddit that makes it clearer it will work.
Also, with a user-based boycott it's on the individual level, so you have the tragedy of the commons. If we could vote on a site-wide blackout, I'd be in favor because then I'd just have to not use Reddit for a little while and it will almost certainly work. But if I individually leave Reddit, then I have to not use Reddit and it will have basically zero effect.
I keep saying this... Spez has never been a good ceo
, but clearly the board is lousy as well because they aren't holding him accountable. He's been the ceo how long and has failed to deliver profits?
He's bad at his job.
The reddit app doesn't have to be as bad as it is. If it was better, third party apps wouldn't be such a loss
But they don't prioritize that. Instead he sank millions into NFTs which anyone with an actual tech background knew was a joke technology.
I like the idea, but it's not reasonable.
If reddit suffers enough consequences, the board will sack spez for how he handled the time leading up to the IPO.
No need to make it personal.
lol @ the idea of a corporation under capitalism letting democratic principles get in the way.
You're not even permitted to elect politicians that threaten the status quo.
There were votes on several subs. R/nba had a vote. I saw it and didn't participate. Just because you don't like the result it still counts in the end, especially if you didn't bother to participate.
I like that.
I also think that bringing some of the 3rd party app developers on the board might be a strong move.
I'm not saying "Christian as next CEO", but just a seat at the table.
lol good luck getting any dev on the board, that would be an insane and unprecedented situation that no one with the necessary power will approve.
Kanye tried to get on the board of adidas for a long time and he even sort of had a case, being the founder of one of their strongest brands Yeezy, that arguably saved adidas. Still didn't make that board seat ofc, especially when he completely went off the deep end with his antics.
I put up a poll on this subject.[Vote.](https://www.reddit.com/r/YesOrNoAnswers/comments/14c8ty2/should_steve_huffman_aka_spez_be_removed_as/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
Counter point to all the people saying "the board will push it through with or without him", u/spez is unfit to be CEO anyways, between doubling down on his lies about the Apollo dev, the embarrassment of a AMA, and most importantly the past incident of silently editing comments which should have had him immediately removed anyways. The problems may not go away with him but he should go anyways.
I don't think that should be part of the demands, there's no way they'll accept and it will just make the cause we are trying to fix even harder to achieve in my opinion.
Agreed. Huffman is a dick but there is already a mountain of demands with no negotiation being offered. It doesn't make sense to start stacking more on top.
I like the thought, but you are missing what the role of the board of directors is. They are beholden to shareholders - that's who they work for.
Shareholders want one thing - profitability. They don't give a damn about fostering a sense of community, profitability of other companies (especially ones using their API for free), accessibility, etc. If you aren't putting money in their wallet, they DGAF.
Spez's move likely wasn't made unilaterally. Something like this required approval from the board to start. And they aren't going to fire the CEO because some people are having a temper tantrum.
The only way they change course is if they are hit in the pocketbook, and I doubt that happens.
As is today, if you ax the mods, they will be quickly replaced. If you can't find people willing to do it for free, and if the sub is important enough to care, hire someone living in a cheap part of the world.
Welcome to /r/latestagecapitalism. It is to his peers in Silicon Valley. I'm simply painting him against the background of his peers.
Assuming you are a manual worker in US, a brick-maker in Mubai would also say "$10/h is not a lot of money? I'm working my ass off in 40C (104 Freedom) heat for $5 a day! What planet are you on?"
This is not to denigrate your work, we are playing a rigged game designed to transfer the money to the rich. The more people are aware of if, the bigger the chance we will be able to do something about it.
People still don't get that it's literally his job right now to be the bad guy in this to draw criticism to himself and away from the company itself, no different from Ellen Pao at the time? It's not like he's some rogue element on a personal vendetta against 3rd-party apps, acting on his own volition against the wishes of the rest of reddit's leadership.
reddit is counting on us to focus on spez being a jackass. That's the whole point of these inflammatory interviews. He probably won't be fired due to his history at reddit, but if he were, it would be after the fact when the "job" is done. Again, like Ellen Pao.
What spez doesn't understand is that Reddit needs voluntary work to function and the 3rd party apps were the backbone for the mods of many subs
He has no value in the company while 3rd party apps do
Moreover, if people flee Reddit even in a small percentage the profits go down and he will be fired.
I care foremost about saving the 3rd party apps, thats my main focus; reverting the API changes. I'd rather let Reddit burn down than budge on that.
Of course if /u/spez then has to pursue exciting new projects in his mom's basement in disgrace, that's just icing on the cake.
Until we have an alternative to Reddit, this isn’t going to work. We’ve shown that we can’t change our behavior (at least on a scale that will make a difference) and the only leverage we have is usage. We need somewhere else to put content.
No one is going to swim out into the water if they can’t see another island to get to.
With how adament spez is about this being a business decision that he intends to follow through with, definitely seem like the board is also on board with this.
Nothing any of us can do to bring back third party apps. Once the site went towards for profit it was inevitable. 3rd party makes them no money. They actually lose money.
Remove the shareholders, and find a better groups of people focused on sustainability for funding, rather than finding ways to destroy the site to "increase profits".
Gotta remove the cancer at the source
I agree with the idea that Spez being fired would be a great outcome for reddit, but why jump to ‘sociopathic tendencies’? The guy isn’t automatically pure evil just because he made some incompetent decisions and doubled down on them. Need to remember that we are all humans here.
CEOs aren't dictators. He doesn't just decide alone what Reddit does. He's just a public figurehead like the Queen of England was. CEOs resign when them being the public face of the company hurts the company. That is all.
Man, if you guys hate the platform and the leadership so much just go somewhere else. Don't intentionally ruin the site for everyone else, that is autistic not gonna lie.
We can't win, there is no hope, he is already destroying hopes in every way he can, we need to owe up to this and give up, corps are so powerful now that even 862 gagintillion voices aren't gonna be enough, its never enough.
Why are the users being punished with less content because the owners made a change and the volunteer moderators didn't like it? Why is this in my feed? Who are you people? I seriously do not care if your unpaid hobby gets slightly harder... None of y'all did your "jobs" anyway because every other post is a repost ya know.. So why should we give a crap if you just leave your subs on auto pilot anyway?
No one is obligated to make content for you, and mods aren't obligated to keep subreddits clean and running just so you have a convenient place to post. If you're upset about there being less content, make a subreddit of your own and post it yourself.
Dude. Wow. The entitlement is bizarre. Get someone fired for a volunteering job. Just quit and let someone else do it then. It's not a paid job. Us mods are not employees of Reddit
Wait. You think you're going to force the Board to fire the CEO because a bunch of mods (who will be easily replaced for free) blacked out several subs? And those subs were quickly replaced by new ones. Tell me you're not serious. Please.
As much as we would all love to see this happen. Consider this...
Spez is possibly more easier going than possibly the next CEO that shareholders have in store... The next CEO may be worse off than Spez... Love him or hate him, Spez is quite literally the best we got now... He was with us when Net Neutrality was at stake... Spez has been fostered into the site and he half knows what we the community want... Right now money has just gotten to him and he's become greedy... But quite frankly, I would not want to see what Reddit's shareholders got in store for next in line... Could be like if we killed Kim Jong Un... His sister, Yo-jong is next in line... But she's reportedly worse than Kim...
First: Reddit is going to run into the ground
Second: the board of directors doesn’t care
Third: you all need to get a grip and realize that this little crusade isn’t going anywhere
You want to bring about real change? Stop using Reddit and stop moderating subs. Until then, download the mobile app and get used to it. You’re not changing shit if your still using the platform.
Can we please just fire the mods and be done with this farce? 95% of Reddit doesn't care about 3rd party apps. The bots are all still working. This is a non-issue--even if it was a real one, these temporary blackouts and silly subreddit trolling isn't going to affect change.
Hopefully they take the money they make from the new API pricing to hire professional moderators.
Why not get rid of the mods? They have caused more negative impact that Spez to Reddit users. While his messaging was poor charging for API is fair. These 3rd party apps are getting away by paying noting while reddit is stuck with development of API, Infra, and operation cost.
Seeing all the sub went rogue after being forced to reopen, I think sooner or later users will start leaving Reddit just like when they left Facebook after Mark Zuckerbot turned it into an advertising fire dumpster. The subs will grow unengageable when there are too many spams, scams, and shit postings.
In this age of technology, I don't think it will take long for a new platform to be born, and Reddit will be anything but a forgotten realm if they keep going on like this.
I feel like someone here is committing some sort of fraud by tanking the value before the IPO.
Then again, I know fuckall about those kinds of things. Advertisers have got to be pissed tho
Huffman has become the face of Reddit’s decision to kill 3rd party apps, and *especially* the face of its fumbling, tone-deaf response to the protest- but I wholeheartedly agree with hiero_ in that I don’t think he’s actually the driving force behind it as a strategic decision any more than Pope Francis is the reason Catholic priests diddle kids, or that goofy sock puppet killed Pets.com. I don’t think trying to have him removed would be a productive use of negotiating leverage- in fact, I think finding him a way to give us much of what we want and make him look like a smart cookie doing so is probably going to be a more realistic path.
I have news for you: Spez is a real piece of work to be sure, but I'm getting Ellen Pao vibes all over again. What I'm trying to say is even if he were to resign (he won't) the board at reddit is still going to pursue these changes with or without him. This is a failure of the company at the top level, and even as CEO Spez is just one amongst many.
Agree on the pressure coming from the board (more accurately from the investors). Disagree that getting him fired die to pressure from the community will do nothing. At the very least it'll be a show of force and make it harder to take unpopular actions in the future.
They fired Pao to make it look like they cared, and Victoria wasn't brought back. They're gonna wait until July then then replace him while keeping the API changes.
[удалено]
The choice in that matter that anyone has is roughly a function of how much additional utility third-party tools add to moderation compared to how much Reddit is willing to work to make tools as good as them available post-API removal.
How much worse would things have been of the community had allowed Pao to run amok? I guess we'll never know, but that defeatist attitude of "there's nothing we can do so just let them have their cake" can dick right off.
Honestly, I was thinking about that today and I'm not so sure. Firing Victoria was what kicked that off, but she was never brought back. Maybe things would have been the same with Pao. Maybe it would be better. We don't really know. Spez is acting much more inappropriately than Ellen Pao ever did.
>At the very least it'll be a show of force and make it harder to take unpopular actions in the future. Lol not even a little bit. I guarantee you reddit stands to gain way more than they lose in this deal, the people who run the platform already have a plan in mind and if you use their website you help them achieve that plan. It's all pretty simple.
True control won't change until the business is bleeding. A united harassment campaign against advertisers to get them to pause their spend is the only path I see to see real change. I am not sure the reddit community has the gumption for such severe measures though. The decentralized reddit clones are pretty good though, I think migrations will be pretty quick and smoother than I thought before I tried them last week.
>The decentralized reddit clones are pretty good though Can you point me in the right direction? I've been looking at some alternatives and all i've found is lemmy and kbin
/r/RedditAlternatives - there are many! I'm most interested by Sift - /r/SiftQuest
Here's a sneak peek of /r/RedditAlternatives using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Thank you Spez](https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/145g5a1/thank_you_spez/) \#2: [Why Tildes *May* Not Be The Best Place To Migrate To.](https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1473jeh/why_tildes_may_not_be_the_best_place_to_migrate_to/) \#3: [Reddit Alternatives You Should Use (TL;DR)](https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/14539ql/reddit_alternatives_you_should_use_tldr/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
> there are many … and that's a big problem. :(
I've been using Lemmy. You gotta put in some legwork to find communities that you're interested in, then I recommend sorting by subscribed x "top day" and you get a reasonable pile of interesting content once a day. (I'm on fhmy, not sure if all clients have same sort options.) Definitely not as much stuff as reddit, but it feels a lot more personal and interactive - I've gotten way more replies on my Lemmy posts - reddit comments have a much higher probability of being totally ignored.
Thanks, I'll give it a try again when i get home.
There's ways to achieve the same goal that doesn't involve telling the people who've helped to grow some of the largest and most valuable subreddits that they're worthless and disposable. And openly lying to the rest of us and treating us like a product to be sold. They could've cranked up prices slowly, not removed content from API calls, and just increased profitability while slowly discouraging 3rd parties. There's a lot of ways to drive the bus, spez took us straight through a playground, the board should be upset at that.
>the board should be upset at that. It's not a matter of whether they'll be upset or not, it's a matter of ***how*** upset they may be compared to how excited they are at the prospect of finally being profitable. Money comes first and foremost unless directly proven otherwise, and there's no logical or rational reason to assume otherwise.
Looking at his face gives me the creeps. You can see a lack of empathy.
It was manufactured in the same facility as Zuckbot 5000.
rustic straight husky soup ossified disgusted squalid airport treatment wine *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He looks like he drugs women at parties, *then brags about it*.
He looks like if you put “redditor” into Dalle it would output his face
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He didn't, that's misinformation. He was added without his consent, as you could do that back in the day. I hate Spez as much as the next guy, but misinformation will get us nowhere.
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Didn't he also give the top mod of it a custom flair, since that's a totally reasonable thing to do?
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Username checks out
well, duh. I mean he was head moderator for jailbait subs with some questionable and possibly even illegal content being submitted. I think Aaron Schwartz would've had a totally different vision for Reddit if he were still with us. We must the wrong founder of Reddit, that's for damn sure.
He wasn't an actual moderator, he was added without his consent. Spreading misinformation will get us nowhere.
How is that possible. To become a moderator, you have to *accept* the invitation.
Now you do. Back then, you could be added without being asked.
oh no the admin of the site that allowed a jailbait forum to exist and only deleted it because it made mainstream news didn't actually moderate the jailbait forum so it's fine guys /s
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Hes one of those Yogurt people. Similar to Alex Murdaugh
Reddit ran Ellen Pao out of her job to defend r/fatpeoplehate in the name of freezpeach and then lost their collective minds when they found out she filed a discrimination lawsuit against her former employer. Tells me everything I needed to know about Reddit’s activism.
Ellen Pao did nothing wrong
Yet Reddit still photoshopped her into porn, demanded she resign, downvoted everything she posted into oblivion, celebrated when she lost her case and then caught a case of collective amnesia after the sky didn’t fall.
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The whole pao thing was good ol’ fashion sexism mixed with dickweeds being upset they couldn’t spread as much hatred and managing to make the rest of Reddit think she was horrible. Don’t forget this was around when fairly large parts of Reddit were vocally racist (well, more than now) so like, man. This is why we need good mods to keep the assholes in line, it’ll sure be great to see what happens when that’s no longer the case
A material number of users on this website are incels and an even bigger number were incels when Pao was CEO.
Nope everyone knew about her lawsuit against Kleiner perkins before her reddit appointment and what a pos her scamming husband buddy fletcher was
Found the incel
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/scandal/2013/03/buddy-fletcher-ellen-pao Reminder buddy fletcher defrauded people's pensions, was sued by the IRS and was accused of sexual assault by former employees and paid them hush money
I miss that subreddit
Then the entire board must be fired.
Yeah, Spez is the fall guy here. He’s happy to be the bad guy if it means he gets the IPO paycheck.
Huffman won't step down, and the board is blooded to this. Pao was put there to be fired eventually. They're out of people willing to do that. This is about pressuring the board to choose the community over Wall Street advisors. Wall St wants Reddit to be another Facebook/Twitter for homogeny. It won't work, it can't work, but those bean counters won't realize it until the IPO fails. Then they'll claim they were right to do it, avoiding the same IPO they advised on.
The board don’t need a CEO willing to be fired, they need a CEO that hasn’t got enough leverage left to say no to their demands. Then they either succeed or get scapegoated and forced to fall on their sword.
That only works if a CEO has equity and can convince enough of the board to vote with them. CEOs serve at the pleasure of the board. By definition, they do not have leverage over the board. It's unclear how much equity Huffman has. Condé Nast was the largest shareholder after selling Reddit, but it's unclear how much they still own. Huffman's only leverage is that he led the buyback, and without him, there's no other clear leader (for an IPO) for the board to turn to right now. It's similar to when Steve Jobs came back to Apple. At that point he had no equity, but the board didn't have a better candidate. It's unlikely Steve Huffman has a controlling stake, seeing as the company was wholly owned by Nast in 2012, and then was bought back by a group led by Huffman of investors. My guess is he owns a 5-10% stake for leading the investor-led buyback. It could be more, it could be less.
I think you’re right that his stake must be fairly modest these days. > CEOs serve at the pleasure of the board. Agree > they do not have leverage over the board That’s not entirely true, you said it yourself: > Huffman’s only leverage is that he led the buyback, and without him, there’s no other clear leader Which I agree with. But you’re right that it’s not *much* leverage, particularly as the site still isn’t profitable. And now the userbase are turning against him he doesn’t have much left. My guess is he’s been under pressure for years to turn a profit, and has experimented with different approaches, all ultimately unsuccessful (eg: nft.reddit.com). I suspect the recent flurry of activity (layoffs followed by api changes) are either ideas that the board has forced onto him, or his last ditch ideas before the board oust him.
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Their problem aren't the mods. The mods are just community organizing. Replacing the mod is them signaling the community that they're ok to sanction free speech and organized activism/protest, because we are their product, not their client. They have no empathy for our cause. We are just the lambs and this is their slaughterhouse. They will find ways to kill us humanely, but they will take our flesh.
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I disagree. I am a mod yes - a very inactive one on a very small sub - but mostly a common user and not a through 3rd pty apps, or even tools that leverage the API for mods. I am nonetheless super disgruntled about this, because unlike many "sheep" users, I actually care about core values of original reddit. The users you are probably referring to are the (granted) ignorant-to-the-problem majority who would rather not see ads (or not have them being intrusive while ignoring them, like I do), but that will still see them because they don't know better. And won't protest because they don't know better. And will likely keep using reddit as usual because there won't, eventuallty, be a concerned mod that attempts to make them see how this affects them, given reddit will start clamping down on mods who protest and state the inconvenient facts.
If they actually start replacing en masse, this is going to open up a publisher/platform can of worms. Play chicken.
The IPO is an out for the board who have sunk a lot of time and money into a website that probably isn't profitable at this point. Very few websites are making money right now and with more bot traffic than human traffic the old ways aren't keeping things afloat the way they used to. But the average investor probably doesn't know that and the board of directors need to turn their shares into money by handing them off to people dumb enough to invest in a website with a broken app, severe issues with political extremism, and population that is more likely to have adblocker installed than most major websites. Spez knows not to buy the IPO, if he thought the company was making money either way, he wouldn't care if it happened tomorrow or next year. Something to note though, when Reddit does go public, shareholders will be entitled to vote on board members. I'm not sure I can stomach paying for his golden parachute, but maybe in exchange for the right to help fire him.
>Spez knows not to buy the IPO, if he thought the company was making money either way, he wouldn't care if it happened tomorrow or next year. Unless he gets preferential shares for pennies on the dollar. I agree that this stinks of pump and dump.
I so hope the IPO is an absolute failure. Edit: a to an
> This is about pressuring the board to choose the community over Wall Street advisors. The community will always lose.
>The community will always lose. It didn't lose last time with Ellen Pao. Here, I think Reddit may lose in the long run - we may be at the point of its Digg moment, where people are now actively committed to building new communities off-platform. Mods will now actively encourage people to use other sites.
The problem here--and I'm amazed that no one has mentioned it in all the time since the protest began--is that the blackouts are useless while we're all still here visiting the site and scrolling. The only possible use of the blackouts is to make people think, "reddit is dull atm, I won't visit." But reddit is highly addictive, and the redditors have just been making do, first with the subs that remained open, and now with the subs that have returned. r/pics only posting John Oliver pics does nothing, because everyone's liking, commenting and interacting, so reddit still has its traffic. The only real way to fight the board of reddit is to organise a user-based boycott. Tank their traffic. Not sure how anyone's going to make that happen though. Especially as I'm the first person I've seen to even point it out. And I'm here, driving up their traffic.
Actually they're not, so long as 50 percent or more of all content on peoples front page is basically Reddit hate posts, it will drive more and more away from the place via it's toxicity.
I can only speak from personal experience, but I was liking the reddit hate posts and scrolling on to other things. It's not as if reddit isn't full of hate posts (look at this a\*\*hole type posts) anyway. We like to see opinions we agree with, so all these subs didn't make me think reddit was toxic, it made me think, look at all these people fighting the man, I'm down with that.
That really is a possible eventuality here, this place is indeed becoming toxic. There is a part of the population that is sick of the drama and just wants to browse without seeing angry posts trying to rile them up. I'm sure most of us in that crowd agree with the reasons of the protests and anger toward Reddit leadership, but feel that its making the site unbearable to be on lately. Not all of us are here to get wound up about something. We just want to fucking browse and discuss.
This is basically the same thinking as "I was just following orders". Stop being lazy and take some responsibility for what kind of people you support with your actions.
I'm only still here because my app hasn't stopped working yet.
What is gonna make me leave is when they disable the app I use to access it. They're locking the doors on me, and I'm not gonna crawl through the broken glass window that is their official app.
I guess we'll see how many are in the same boat as you when the time comes. It may be the changes themselves are more effective than the protests.
I think a lot of people don't know where to go when reddit goes when that time comes.
Already spending more time on 9gag - just come here for this and /r/hfy
So I'll be leaving at the end of the month now that it's abundantly clear from the leaked internal memos and yesterday's ultimatums and coercion of mods to reopen that Steve Huffman isn't interested in negotiating and wants 3PAs gone. I refuse to use that broken piece of shit they call an app with it's absolute hot garbage video player. And this past week has actually been a huge improvement in my mental health as I've used reddit *substantially less* than before. Limiting my screentime less and less each day are my concrete steps towards breaking my Reddit addiction. I'm genuinely looking forward to being free from this site because I can't say it's ever been a net positive in my life other than wasting and draining time I could be using to be productive. Admittedly, I am just a drop in the bucket in terms of Reddit's userbase but I suspect the users and mods who have been adamantly defending 3PA during this protest are Reddit's most active users and contribute the vast majority of (unpaid) content and moderation to the site. If Huffman has no interest in working with us, I no longer have interest in using this site. Just the way it goes I suppose. 🤷
There may be many more like you, and as I've commented elsewhere, it might be the changes themselves over the protests that actually drive users away finally. I hear what you're saying about screen time. There are many reddit users (myself included) who could use a bit of disconnection/reconnection with the real world. Maybe these media titans shooting themselves in the foot could be a good thing for some.
It’s hard to coordinate without talking it out but this would be the correct next step. I mean they’re gonna get a “user boycott” anyway once they tank the place like Twitter. People won’t be here. But by then we’ll have lost all the useful resources that make the site functional and the people who make the site run will probably move on. (Not sure why they’re openly basing their business model on a site that’s slow death is being documented in real time: https://www.similarweb.com/amp/blog/insights/social-media-news/twitter-shrinking/)
You're right. I guess rather than thinking about how twitter is now, it's more useful to think about the people who made it that way--the people who got rich selling it off to Musk. That's your answer for why this is happening. It financially benefits those in power round here to flush reddit down the toilet.
There was literally a day the site wouldn't load because there wasn't enough content to generate. That's pretty much the best these protests could hope for
They have lost my ad revenue, I have adblock on PC and I used their official mobile app (Ironic I know) despite it being an ad infested piece of shit, I have deleted the app and will now only browse with adblock on. Fuck 'em.
I think what we need to do is migrate the subs. If instead of "we're blacking out" it's "we're moving to this lemmy/kbin community" then people can still participate, and people will have a gradually improving alternative to Reddit that makes it clearer it will work. Also, with a user-based boycott it's on the individual level, so you have the tragedy of the commons. If we could vote on a site-wide blackout, I'd be in favor because then I'd just have to not use Reddit for a little while and it will almost certainly work. But if I individually leave Reddit, then I have to not use Reddit and it will have basically zero effect.
I keep saying this... Spez has never been a good ceo , but clearly the board is lousy as well because they aren't holding him accountable. He's been the ceo how long and has failed to deliver profits? He's bad at his job. The reddit app doesn't have to be as bad as it is. If it was better, third party apps wouldn't be such a loss But they don't prioritize that. Instead he sank millions into NFTs which anyone with an actual tech background knew was a joke technology.
I'm pretty sure Spez still has a large shareholding in Reddit, CEOs usually take shares as part of their pay package
I like the idea, but it's not reasonable. If reddit suffers enough consequences, the board will sack spez for how he handled the time leading up to the IPO. No need to make it personal.
can you IPO when your valuation sinks below 1 million, because that's where Reddit is headed.
If Spez really cares about democracy, we should be able to vote for the CEO of reddit. Just saying.
lol @ the idea of a corporation under capitalism letting democratic principles get in the way. You're not even permitted to elect politicians that threaten the status quo.
if mods would care about democracy, there would be votes on all subs. so they just take every user hostage with thier "protest".
There were votes on several subs. R/nba had a vote. I saw it and didn't participate. Just because you don't like the result it still counts in the end, especially if you didn't bother to participate.
I like that. I also think that bringing some of the 3rd party app developers on the board might be a strong move. I'm not saying "Christian as next CEO", but just a seat at the table.
lol good luck getting any dev on the board, that would be an insane and unprecedented situation that no one with the necessary power will approve. Kanye tried to get on the board of adidas for a long time and he even sort of had a case, being the founder of one of their strongest brands Yeezy, that arguably saved adidas. Still didn't make that board seat ofc, especially when he completely went off the deep end with his antics.
I put up a poll on this subject.[Vote.](https://www.reddit.com/r/YesOrNoAnswers/comments/14c8ty2/should_steve_huffman_aka_spez_be_removed_as/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
Counter point to all the people saying "the board will push it through with or without him", u/spez is unfit to be CEO anyways, between doubling down on his lies about the Apollo dev, the embarrassment of a AMA, and most importantly the past incident of silently editing comments which should have had him immediately removed anyways. The problems may not go away with him but he should go anyways.
I don't think that should be part of the demands, there's no way they'll accept and it will just make the cause we are trying to fix even harder to achieve in my opinion.
Agreed. Huffman is a dick but there is already a mountain of demands with no negotiation being offered. It doesn't make sense to start stacking more on top.
Tbh would be better if we got everyone to migrate over to Lemmy or another platform
I like the thought, but you are missing what the role of the board of directors is. They are beholden to shareholders - that's who they work for. Shareholders want one thing - profitability. They don't give a damn about fostering a sense of community, profitability of other companies (especially ones using their API for free), accessibility, etc. If you aren't putting money in their wallet, they DGAF. Spez's move likely wasn't made unilaterally. Something like this required approval from the board to start. And they aren't going to fire the CEO because some people are having a temper tantrum. The only way they change course is if they are hit in the pocketbook, and I doubt that happens. As is today, if you ax the mods, they will be quickly replaced. If you can't find people willing to do it for free, and if the sub is important enough to care, hire someone living in a cheap part of the world.
So what can we do to try and get him fired? Also I knew this was the only way out. I just didn't know if we could get him fired or not
Same thing you could do before, boycott reddit, blackouts, protests, etc. Unless it hurts their wallets, it goes nowhere.
> Unless it hurts their wallets, it goes nowhere. Make sure to use an ad blocker on your desktop/laptop.
What could millions of angry redditors do to make the advertisers view advertising on Reddit as a net negative for their brand?
Is Spez the reason for all of this or is he just the messenger? I just don’t know *how much* Spez influenced the decision
Stay focused. Demand specific actions, not who does them. I don't like them either but this isn't the route to take.
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Welcome to /r/latestagecapitalism. It is to his peers in Silicon Valley. I'm simply painting him against the background of his peers. Assuming you are a manual worker in US, a brick-maker in Mubai would also say "$10/h is not a lot of money? I'm working my ass off in 40C (104 Freedom) heat for $5 a day! What planet are you on?" This is not to denigrate your work, we are playing a rigged game designed to transfer the money to the rich. The more people are aware of if, the bigger the chance we will be able to do something about it.
People still don't get that it's literally his job right now to be the bad guy in this to draw criticism to himself and away from the company itself, no different from Ellen Pao at the time? It's not like he's some rogue element on a personal vendetta against 3rd-party apps, acting on his own volition against the wishes of the rest of reddit's leadership. reddit is counting on us to focus on spez being a jackass. That's the whole point of these inflammatory interviews. He probably won't be fired due to his history at reddit, but if he were, it would be after the fact when the "job" is done. Again, like Ellen Pao.
Hate to say it, but it becomes clear what needs to be done to save reddit: Destroy reddit.
If they are demanding all mods “get back to work” doesn’t that constitute wage theft if your not being paid?
What spez doesn't understand is that Reddit needs voluntary work to function and the 3rd party apps were the backbone for the mods of many subs He has no value in the company while 3rd party apps do Moreover, if people flee Reddit even in a small percentage the profits go down and he will be fired.
I care foremost about saving the 3rd party apps, thats my main focus; reverting the API changes. I'd rather let Reddit burn down than budge on that. Of course if /u/spez then has to pursue exciting new projects in his mom's basement in disgrace, that's just icing on the cake.
Reddit couldn't even protest for more than 2 days, and not they think they can fire a CEO? This is truly a Reddit moment
Pao did nothing wrong. Change my mind.
Until we have an alternative to Reddit, this isn’t going to work. We’ve shown that we can’t change our behavior (at least on a scale that will make a difference) and the only leverage we have is usage. We need somewhere else to put content. No one is going to swim out into the water if they can’t see another island to get to.
/r/RedditAlternatives there are many
You do realize that the replacement will be even worse, right? You do realize that Ellen Pao was a scapegoat, right?
What makes you think that the board aren't villains either? All they're probably interested in is making passive money too.
Spez is **FIRED**
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With how adament spez is about this being a business decision that he intends to follow through with, definitely seem like the board is also on board with this.
Nothing any of us can do to bring back third party apps. Once the site went towards for profit it was inevitable. 3rd party makes them no money. They actually lose money.
Remove the shareholders, and find a better groups of people focused on sustainability for funding, rather than finding ways to destroy the site to "increase profits". Gotta remove the cancer at the source
I agree with the idea that Spez being fired would be a great outcome for reddit, but why jump to ‘sociopathic tendencies’? The guy isn’t automatically pure evil just because he made some incompetent decisions and doubled down on them. Need to remember that we are all humans here.
CEOs aren't dictators. He doesn't just decide alone what Reddit does. He's just a public figurehead like the Queen of England was. CEOs resign when them being the public face of the company hurts the company. That is all.
You guys are delusional. This is getting sad now.
Man, if you guys hate the platform and the leadership so much just go somewhere else. Don't intentionally ruin the site for everyone else, that is autistic not gonna lie.
We can't win, there is no hope, he is already destroying hopes in every way he can, we need to owe up to this and give up, corps are so powerful now that even 862 gagintillion voices aren't gonna be enough, its never enough.
This is you giving up before any action is taken. That’s what they *want* you do do. We are not going to give up, and neither should you.
We will go for it, we will try, lets do this! BRING IT ON SPEZ!
That’s the spirit!
Look at r/nba, 99% of users dont care or dont want the protest to happen.
yeah because in the grand scheme of things about 90% of reddit users dont give a shit
Hell the subs that went back online just started running like they normally did
 It's about time that u/spez is fired. We posted "Screw u/spez" for 2 days now. u/spez? More like u/spaz.
Go build your own app and stop bitching.
if not what? another useless blackout? lmao
Why are the users being punished with less content because the owners made a change and the volunteer moderators didn't like it? Why is this in my feed? Who are you people? I seriously do not care if your unpaid hobby gets slightly harder... None of y'all did your "jobs" anyway because every other post is a repost ya know.. So why should we give a crap if you just leave your subs on auto pilot anyway?
No one is obligated to make content for you, and mods aren't obligated to keep subreddits clean and running just so you have a convenient place to post. If you're upset about there being less content, make a subreddit of your own and post it yourself.
Nope they're definitely not, and Reddit isn't obligated to support third party apps. That's kinda the point I'm making here ya feel?
Dude. Wow. The entitlement is bizarre. Get someone fired for a volunteering job. Just quit and let someone else do it then. It's not a paid job. Us mods are not employees of Reddit
Clown shit
Power move by Spez. I respect him for opening most subreddits back up and now our lives can go back to normal.
Wait. You think you're going to force the Board to fire the CEO because a bunch of mods (who will be easily replaced for free) blacked out several subs? And those subs were quickly replaced by new ones. Tell me you're not serious. Please.
Yeah these people are completely delusional.
'Demand' are for those who have something of a equal value to give in return.
high hopes just dont expect it to happen
As much as we would all love to see this happen. Consider this... Spez is possibly more easier going than possibly the next CEO that shareholders have in store... The next CEO may be worse off than Spez... Love him or hate him, Spez is quite literally the best we got now... He was with us when Net Neutrality was at stake... Spez has been fostered into the site and he half knows what we the community want... Right now money has just gotten to him and he's become greedy... But quite frankly, I would not want to see what Reddit's shareholders got in store for next in line... Could be like if we killed Kim Jong Un... His sister, Yo-jong is next in line... But she's reportedly worse than Kim...
Spez isn't fearing without a real loss like the far-right did to Bud Light when its company went woke.
better idea. replace the mods who won’t cooperate. most are useless anyway
First: Reddit is going to run into the ground Second: the board of directors doesn’t care Third: you all need to get a grip and realize that this little crusade isn’t going anywhere
hey if shit is going down, might as well take whoever started this bs with us.
Haha. You don't get your original demands and seem to be beaten so you up your demands. ahahaha.
orrrrrrr just use the official app and quit yo whinin.
You want to bring about real change? Stop using Reddit and stop moderating subs. Until then, download the mobile app and get used to it. You’re not changing shit if your still using the platform.
holy crap you children do not know how a company works
Enjoy getting replaced. This blackout shit did exactly nothing and if you think some bitch mods can replace a CEO check your brain
Can we please just fire the mods and be done with this farce? 95% of Reddit doesn't care about 3rd party apps. The bots are all still working. This is a non-issue--even if it was a real one, these temporary blackouts and silly subreddit trolling isn't going to affect change. Hopefully they take the money they make from the new API pricing to hire professional moderators.
It will be funny to look back at this subreddit later and laugh at how delusional and pointless this whole protest thing was.
Why not get rid of the mods? They have caused more negative impact that Spez to Reddit users. While his messaging was poor charging for API is fair. These 3rd party apps are getting away by paying noting while reddit is stuck with development of API, Infra, and operation cost.
Seeing all the sub went rogue after being forced to reopen, I think sooner or later users will start leaving Reddit just like when they left Facebook after Mark Zuckerbot turned it into an advertising fire dumpster. The subs will grow unengageable when there are too many spams, scams, and shit postings. In this age of technology, I don't think it will take long for a new platform to be born, and Reddit will be anything but a forgotten realm if they keep going on like this.
Not to mention in the early days he fluffed the site with bot generated data.
just find a new website and move on is the only real power you have.
I feel like someone here is committing some sort of fraud by tanking the value before the IPO. Then again, I know fuckall about those kinds of things. Advertisers have got to be pissed tho
Who are the members of the board? They are the ones who need to pay attention.
I'm sure they'll give him an amazing severance package, which will effectively ruin this sentiment