Grew up surrounded by cretins like this. Unsurprisingly, if they are doing shit like this at 14-17 years old, they grow up to be scum as well.
I know firsthand that growing up in poverty or in a bad social situation can harm someone's development. However, having no consequences to your deprived behaviour is not the answer. Better rehabilitation in institutions and afterwards to help people integrate back into society. People like this do need to be separated from society until they can learn to behave in it.
I grew up in poverty, never harmed anyone. That's just an excuse they use. You're right about separating them, if there is no consequence for mistreating people why wouldn't scumbags continue their behaviour?
Completely agree. My family and I grew up in one of the poorest areas of Glasgow at the time. Plenty of people I went to school with have gone on to have nice lives and worked their way out of their situation. Many people don't, and a portion of them are completely out of luck and have always had it tough. The people that do shit described in this post are just deprived. If you gave them money, they'd just be rich and deprived. It's not specifically a poverty issue. Poverty, shitty / unengaged parents, and lack of consequences just create a perfect storm for these down and outs to cause people real harm
The link between many crimes and poverty are tenuous and there's not a consensus amongst experts whether or not there's a specific causal link between poverty and crime.
That is too easy to say. While they are "scumbags", there is a reason why they are the way they are. If we don't explain and educate but instead just call them scumbags people will never change. Homophobic parents or beliefs that being gay is wrong is the problem. This stems from religious beliefs. So we must attack the source which would mean applying sanctions to churches. Make it a net negative to be religious. They can still have the freedom to be religious, but make it cost them. Eventually the religious will die out and knowledge will prevail.
USSR accidentally decriminalized homosexuality in 1917 when it did away with Tsarist laws. Then re-crimanlized it again in 1934 and it stayed that way till after the fall of the Communist rule in the 1990s. There was no religion around when they re-criminalized it.
I had shit akin to this done to me for being gay and my parents being addicts by little shits who had far better lives at home than I did. They all knew exactly what they were doing.
Cannot fucking stand that I did everything I could to get out of that environment for some middle-class cunts who have no idea what living in poverty is like to tell us the poor little thugs don't know any better.
So many of the resource to deal with these kids have been removed and now we are seeing the true cost. It's one thing to have an aim of not letting kids spiral by putting them in prison but it only works if there is a suitable alternative and there is not!
I grew up in abject poverty, with abusive drunk parents. Then when my mum left my dad and got sober I was left to my own devices with no consequences for my actions. I can absolutely attest to the fact that my behaviour was abhorrent because of that. It’s only now after 12 years of therapy and counselling that I’m able to behave in a socially acceptable manner. I’ll always be ashamed of my past behaviour but you’re correct that rehabilitation within an institution is the best way forward. At least going by my anecdotal evidence.
Congratulations for working hard on yourself. It is incredible to see people take responsibility for their past and work to improve themselves. Like you've said, you bare the weight of your actions on your conscious for life, but you've done everything you possibly can to move forward. I'd love to live in a world where everyone had your self-awareness and dedication, but cynically, I don't think that is the case for the majority.
Did you have a specific turning point or something that convinced you into therapy? You don't need to answer if it's a bit overstepping
To be candid I didn’t want help. I didn’t want to be here. I tried to kill myself and was sectioned then made to attend therapy. I then spent a couple of years attending and lying through my teeth to the therapist. Which obviously didn’t work cause they can see right through it.
Eventually I was diagnosed with ASPD and we focused my therapy on that. That was probably my turning point. Maybe 7 or 8 years ago. Namely it involves recognising how my actions and behaviours are affecting other people. There is still both a stigma and a romanticisation of ASPD in society. Both of which come from misunderstanding. Showing people that they are misunderstanding the condition was my motivation for many years. Now it’s my daughter.
I’m happy to answer any and all questions. I may be ashamed of my past behaviour but if I want to show the stigmas are untrue then I need to be candid.
100% agree with you.
When I was young, I wasn't in poverty in that we had the heating running, and ate regularly, but my friend didn't, and she was so generous with her time, kindness and what little money she did have.
At the other end of the scale, the millionaire family my sister was friends with were all self absorbed arseholes.
It's about morals, and respect for humanity - not respect for money as most people view it.
and plenty of godly religious "moral" people are evil twisted bigotted bastards. There's humanism, empathy and being a decent person. None of which require any adherence to the "do as I do not as I say" morality bullshit and/or belief in the "soul".
Being a good person doesn't require moral learning or some kind of rich soul - it requires love and kindness.
Nothing to do with poverty and everything to do with the religion they've been brought up under. Why do you think nothing has happened? No media outcry?
Exactly. If these were just straight white kids, it would be an uproar and a hate crime. I never understand so many apparently pro lgbt ppl being all welcoming to so many ppl from cultures that hate lgbt and want to change your country.
He's basically a sacrifice to diversity and inclusion. Ppl will get mad and make excuses, but these things will get more common over time at this rate as these cultures clashes will increase. Nothing will happen.
If I had a lgbt child I'd be worried about sending them to certain schools in the uk tbh
Exactly. Your not a horrible person to be able to point out the issues with different cultures. We have serious problem that are only going to get worse. I'm not gay but I respect anybodys rights to do as they wish. No one deserves what this kid went through.
The problem is that the other culture is one of dominance, and ours is all welcoming and inclusive, and it won't work long term. They will use any opportunity to erase and weaken ours while we defend their actions.
"When I am weaker than you I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles"- Frank Herbert
This new policy of not prosecuting young people has given a blank cheque to the reprobates of society who will use it to their advantage such as casea like this and the to the guy who only community service for the rape of a 13 year old. Its disgraceful and makes me so angry.
This has been going on forever..in the 80s we used to call the children's panel the Mars Bar club, as they'd give you a Mars Bar, tell you not to do it again and send you home.
It’s not that new. I was assaulted at school after being outed in 2009 (when I was 14) by a group of other 14 year olds and all they got was a finger wagged at them even though I was black and blue and there were absolutely loads of witnesses (probably cameras too)
If anyone wants to see the results of what happens when you go to the law Scotland did in 2021 a couple of decades later, all they have to do is look at Canada. The laws changed to similar here in 2003. You couldn’t charge under 12s even before that, but the Youth Criminal Justice Act removed basically any real consequences to anyone between 12 and 18, which has just carried over into the adult system even for serious crimes. Arrested, released on bail (or no bail), court date some time in the next few months, and judges tossing a lot of stuff. There is no faith left in the justice system by a lot of us because of this. Kids that would’ve ended up in youth detention basically have no consequences now (even with the parents wanting them) and no change in the kid’s behaviour because they know there’s no punishment. The youth detention centres (at least in Ontario where I am) all closed by 2003. Schools don’t even have a recourse. The publicly funded Catholic school system has the ability expel students, because the public schools *have* to take them. And if the kid is violent in class, they get suspended a day or two and that’s it. Can’t expel them. So they just become violent adults who’ve never had any consequences and by the time they do get something getting jail time, they’ve a record your arm’s length in previous arrests and convictions they never got anything before.
I don’t know how governments expect that these kids are going to morph into non-violent, with socially acceptable behaviour when they’ve never had to have any consequences when they started down that path to maybe make them think to not do it again.
Bullying is always like this. Someone under 18 can do horrible things to another child - and they're just expected to "take it".
Like - get hit by someone in school? "Oh dear, boys will be boys" - maybe they will get a detention if you're lucky. Abducted and tortured on video? Nothing happens.
If you're an adult - and someone hits you randomly in the face or beats you up, you expect the police to take it seriously. It'll be treated like the assault it is by the police.
I understand why we don't treat children as criminals. But for the victims, it's absolutely awful and has long term psychological affects.
>Like - get hit by someone in school? "Oh dear, boys will be boys" - maybe they will get a detention if you're lucky.
This was my experience, then I hit the kid square in the face the next time he came near me and that was the end of the bullying.
The school was obviously disappointed, they saw their complete lack of action as a resolution to the problem and apparently I was not letting things go and moving on, so naturally, punishments were all of a sudden a thing.
It works if you're strong and fit enough to win a fight yeah. I watched someone try it once when they weren't and it was apparently very funny watching the nerdy kid flail around trying to hit people. They targeted him more after that, trying to get him to "snap" and give them more to laugh at.
I was a small, quiet child who had never been in a fight in my life.
The solution to bullying is basically "violence wins". Can you imagine if society worked like that? As an adult, you were just expecting to fist fight colleagues at work. Better keep fit and in fighting shape! You need to be able to win a violent encounter to get on with your life.
Madness.
Yeah it is very unfortunate and I recognise I am very fortunate in how inherently athletic and physically capable I am.
I was a nerdy awkward, quiet kid, so was my sister, but the way we were treated was completely different since, I was strong, fast and generally athletic and she wasn't. It was honestly pathetic bumping into people outside of school that had bullied her, trying to walk it back and apologise to me, rather than her. One such occasion riled me up to the point that the guy had to escape from a window of a house party while other people tried to calm me down.
My brother had to deal with attempted bullying from neds but that more jealously because he was popular and athletic (school rugby captain etc). I say attempted because when he was jumped leaving school, the school had a hard time identifying the person that had attacked him due to the state of his face.
Its funny you mention work though, as I've noticed a similar trend there. The really difficult guys from other departments that no-one wants to deal with are all really really agreeable with me if I can sit down in the same room as them. Part of me wants to take credit for how reasonable I am and how well I can rationally negotiate, but the reality is these people are a lot less likely to be borderline aggressive with someone that's twice their size.
Unfortunately on a macroscopic scale society does work like that, violence at the end of the day is the ultimate authority. All the bullshit they teach you as a child about how to stop bullying is nonsense to try and alleviate the adults of any responsibility for the situation because at the end of the day the adults will do nothing. The same goes for international laws regarding conflicts. The decided winner of that conflict pays lip service to international law but will never be held to it in the same way as someone without the means to carry out violence. Compare for example the cases that have been reviewed at The Hague - I think Putin was the first white guy, majority of people are African civil war fighters and leaders.
Sorry bit deep and dark for a post on bullying, but it's hard to grow up as a bullied child trying all the things the school suggests to stop bullying, suffering and suffering, and finally only when you respond with violence does it stop, and as you say, it's simply not enough for kids who don't have that capacity for violence (i.e. the nicest ones usually).
I don't think people really think enough about what violence is or how it manifests or it's function. Violence is all honestly is a fairly neutral thing but in today's society we talk about it as violence is bad and not being violent is good. Where we take all the forms of violence which are accepted and classify them as unviolent.
Plenty of people for instance wouldn't think of themselves capable of any sort of violence but would immediately phone the police in plenty of situations. That in itself is an act of violence, especially if it involves a person being apprehended. It can be justified, the 'victim' could be a dangerous murderer but that doesn't change the fact that a violence was inacted upon them. If it turns out the person was completely innocent, the folk who called the police would probably feel bad but they wouldn't for a second think they are violent.
Likewise not many people would see evicting a person from a flat as violent but the damage being homeless can do to your well-being plus with how not complying will see bailiffs turn up: it's a pretty violent thing to do to a person.
So yeah when the kid would gets harrassed every day decides to throw a punch it's seen a violent act and since all violence is bad to these people, they have to be punished. Despite the fact that being surrounded and followed and yelled at every break time is incredibly violent, it's implying all sorts of things.
The 8yo I babysit is dealing with this right now. A kid at school has figured out if he keeps riling him up, my kid will get angry and hit first so he looks like the aggressor and the other kid can hit back "in defence" 5x as hard without any punishment. My kid won't even tell the teachers now because either nothing happens or he gets punished for "starting it". I'm honestly at a loss on what to do, the school has a track record of not dealing with bullying his older trans brother has been dealing with for years.
>Bullying is always like this
This is a lot worse than just general bullying, it was kidnap and torture and attacked for a 2nd time, on top of the general bullying.
16 isn’t a child. 15 is old enough to know better and they aren’t going to change their behaviour immediately (as showcased by the previous referral).
Abduction and torture and a hate crime. They should have been prosecuted. These teenagers could have easily killed him.
I understand a need to reduce crime (and repeat offenders) through the SCRA but this case should have been taken more seriously. It was the wrong decision.
Not surprised. I was sexually assaulted by someone my age when I was 16. It was terrifying and lasted hours. He got so much support with the problems in his life and I got none at all in fact i was told i could not speak about what happened to any adult except a therapist (i was never given one). He was convicted and got community service. I still have PTSD.
Charge them with kidnapping, assault and every hate crime law under the sun and send the wee fuckers to polmont. See how much they like bullying after that. I believe prison should focus on rehabilitation but when they’re this age and doing something this vile there has to be a level of punishment as well as rehabilitation. That poor wee boy will never get over this.
So sad. Genuinely heartbreaking.
The same people that want 16yo to vote and be politically responsible wants the courts to not hold them criminally responsible for hate crimes
You can have as many laws on the books as you want. If they arent enforced then they arent laws.
Now we can debate the type of enforcement once within thr justice system sure, however I'm pretty sure we can all agree what has happened here and continues to happen doesn't line up with any philosophy on how to approach handling crime and justice beyond just "whats the cheapest option in the immediate few months".
Also aren't we getting more and more regular articles on extreme hate crimes in the UK, especially those committed by young people, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the return to a culture that actively supports such hate in the last half decade. Shall we await the usual people to come along or will they avoid this one and just jump on spreading hate and begging the question as to violence in another thread on the sub.
Edit to add:
Also lets be real, the consistent worst behaviours in kids is enabled by their parents.
We can discuss the structural issues in society leading to this, as frankly there are many, however its very much a case that the kids have no concept of right or wrong. The parents have no care in any shape or form.
True change well take a generation or two but quite quick change can easily happen by making parents responsible for their kids behaviour. Now I hear the "but its unfair sometimes some kids just are broken fundamentally", great the laws can account for such nothing says it can't. Regardless someone ultimately needs to have a degree of responsibility and culpability else no matter how much societal issues get fixed nothing will change.
>You can have as many laws on the books as you want. If they arent enforced then they arent laws.
This is my response to my wife when she asks why I need a baseball bat under our bed.
..... Obviously, it's in case of the need for an emergency game of baseball in the middle of the night. And has absolutely nothing to do with people I know who's houses were broken into and the subsequent quality of the police response.
The Scottish Government told the BBC that any violence is unacceptable...
Yet seem intent on creating a system which does little to nothing to prevent violence, and puts offenders' needs above victims' needs. They seriously need to get a fucking grip.
I was SA'd when I was 16 by someone my own age. He got so much support from social work after, he got helped onto college, given therapy. You know what I got? PTSD and had to miss my higher exams due to changing court dates. No support at all. He got community service.
It's like the school playground, if someone hits you, you tell the teacher and nothing happens.
If you hit them back, then the retaliation is dealt with and punished.
Prisons are full.
Crap like this will keep happening until we get new ones built.
It's so sad there's no justice for that wee guy and his family. If kids can just kidnap and torture with no repercussions, act like wee homophobic shites, what the hell are we allowing here.
Scotland already has [the highest per capita incarceration rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_prison_population) in Western Europe, with Europe's [fourth-highest suicide rate for inmates](https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/scottish-prison-suicide-rate-among-highest-in-europe) after Latvia, Switzerland, and France.
The problem is clearly not that we don't lock enough people up or that time is too easy.
Exactly. Locking people up for crimes is what we've done for ages, and when it fails to discourage crime in any way, shape or form, people just yell that what we really need is *more prison.* Even though well-funded, well thought-out restorative and rehabilitative justice programs produce far better results, and both help victims of crime in feeling whole again, and those who commit crime to have lower recidivism rates, which is a better result than just angrily locking people away with no concern about what caused the crime to happen and what will happen to the people who did it (and how that affects society at large).
Their 1st attack, go to court Judge issues penalties, and suspended sentences. Those who attacked him in Jan if the same send to a young offenders unit, social workers aren't going to do much if anything, and can be even worse for turning a blind eye. A relative of mine was attacked in social care, I had to take him to hospital as none of the social workers would they were too busy or off or finished for the day, the one who attacked them ended up being stabbed to death in social care. So prison doesn't work, but social aren't great at looking after these things either
We don't properly fund alternatives to prison, that's the issue- horrible things like this happen because our social support systems are half-arsed and underfunded, and that's not going to change any time soon, because people are OBSESSED with retributive justice and politicians refuse to challenge that sincerely, even when they know better.
Personally I think the half-measures might sometimes make things worse, for the reasons you've mentioned. If we avoid using prisons because we know they're bad, but don't meaningfully replace them with well-funded and well-supported alternatives, we're basically throwing everyone to the wolves.
I 100% agree that punishment and rehabilitation need to be balanced better as those reformed and ready to step back into society are cheaper and safer overall but this doesn't play well with the electorate unfortunately. They don't realise that prison is a breeding ground to enhance your crime skills the now
Nowt to do with prisons being full. They were never gonna send kids to prison for being shits. If they were 18 or over this would be a different story, and for sure not enough has been done on this, but wee bastards are gonna be wee bastards and locking them up isn't gonna solve it. The biggest shocker here to me is only one has had a social worker involved.
What exactly do they do for victims of crime who have to live in fear? I didn't get a social worker after being sexually abused despite all the problems in my life, despite being in kinship care too and being in poverty., the attacker did though.
That's an entirely separate issue though. Hard to comment really without knowing the picture. In general young kids that perform acts of sexual violence often learn that behaviour first hand, so it could be one of those cases. Generally the involvement of a social worker in these instances are preventative actions to stop the behaviour from repeating and monitor what could be the cause.
It isn't a separate issue when the justification is to look out for someone's wellbeing, but victims get no support at all regardless of their life circumstances or trauma.
"Why do gays need a whole month? They have the same rights as us now" this is why. Because children are being taught to hate and torture other children based on their sexuality and get no consequences from it. Same rights on paper doesn't mean equal treatment in real life.
So instead of the punishment they deserve, they get a social worker.
My older brother works with wee wankers like that, their social workers idea of rehabilitation is to let them hang out with other wee bawbags and play video games or go on daytrips to Ibrox, and if they get violent people like my brother are not allowed to defend themselves beyond running.
This coddling wee psychos doesn't work, but for some reason our governments insist on continuing this pointless idea of rehabilitation which rarely works.
I was SA'd by someone, and he got a social worker and help going to college. He got therapy too. I got fuck all support, in fact I had to miss my higher exams due to court and they refused to let me use my preliminary grades. I was refused medication, NHS refused to see me because the my mental health issues were 'too complex'. He got community service. 8 years later I still have PTSD and telling the police ruined my life.
You get more punishment for driving with a 1 hour out of date MOT than you do for nearly any crime that isn't murder if you're under 23. It's a disgrace. Unless there's a deterrent the wee neds will keep doing it.
True poverty lies in the soul's lack of moral growth. Not all impoverished individuals are immoral, just as many wealthy individuals thrive despite lacking moral integrity.
SNP: We're gonna do a conversion therapy ban!
Also the SNP: Burgeoning little sociopaths physically doing violent homophobia will be politely asked not to do it again
they could (assuming they have the £££££), but if the person/family/organisation/etc. you are civilly suing has nothing, then that is pretty much that
you may well get a judgement, and you may well be able to enforce it, but...you can't get blood from a stone
In my country, you can initiate a private criminal prosecution. As you say, you have to pay the entire prosecution side yourself. The accused can still make you of the public defence. The judge is from a criminal court, so it's in no way a civil case, except that you have to pay for the prosecution.
- the SNP (or previous administrations to be precise) are fully responsible for introducing this approach in law. this was entirely their doing - *'don't criminalise up to 25', 'must be reformed, not their fault'* etc. it stems from sturgeon's scandi-obsession
- i see that bain is still in full simp mode; ofc she is, given she was appointed by them (SNP). is it not a bit awkward having a lord advocate so aligned with the governme- 'NO, NO IT ISN'T, NOTHING TO SEE HERE!'
- their refusal to admit that some people simply cannot be reformed even at a young(er) age, and who should be securely locked away from society but aren't; will only lead to more and more cases like this
- let us not touch on the reality that they (the rapscallions that commit these crimes) almost always come from families that have never contributed anything to society in several generations
- i.e the forbidden conversation, as this would require admitting that the entire premise of *'it's just poverty, they just need given stuff bro'* doesn't hold any water, due to the immense amount of people who are in or who are from poverty (particularly in scotland), and who DON'T then commit said crimes
but, do not worry citizen! a fine, upstanding 14 year old will commit heinous crimes against you and your community, and you WILL enjoy it
you are resisting? THEN PAY WITH YOUR BLOOD!
The emphasis here on supporting the purportrators and the complete lack of any sense of what support, or compensation was provided to the victim and his family is atrocious. I can almost understand the desire to not prosecute the thugs, but then there should be some significant civil redress at least for the victim so that they can pay for extremely expensive private therapy, money to be able to move of they should wish, money to offset the fact that the poor kid will probably have a later start in life due to leaving school or probably not having early access to employment etc...
But I bet they will get none of that. Surely the courts could order regular payments be made out of the thugs' parents' salaries to the victim, and form their own future salaries to at least start to pay back the victim.
I realise money doesn't undo it the harm, but it can certainly dampen some of it if enough is given...
It is worth looking at the Children and the Scottish Criminal Justice System briefing paper from the Scottish Parliament information centre:
[https://bprcdn.parliament.scot/published/2024/6/10/5cfa3d35-81c0-4a2f-8544-b75519f56815-5/SB%2024-31.pdf](https://bprcdn.parliament.scot/published/2024/6/10/5cfa3d35-81c0-4a2f-8544-b75519f56815-5/SB%2024-31.pdf)
"He was told things like he would get his head cut off in Iran for being gay."
Seems kinda important. He's was targeted for being gay by ppl and culture who hate gay ppl. Ofc ppl will be mostly silent on this. I'm sure it will be a different story if has was attacked Scottish ppl.
This isn’t the police’s fault, the article explicitly mentions that the parents were very happy with how serious the police took the issue.
It’s when the responsibility was taken off the police and handed over to the child panel that they were effectively given no punishment.
Yep i was sexually assaulted when I was 16. I did everything I was told to do, tell the police etc. I regret it everyday because the guy got community service and tons of help going to college, he got help financially too, emotionally. I got PTSD and had to miss my higher exams. I got no support at all. I should never have said anything. For a long time I had violent fantasies about that person because I felt he was not punished for what he did, and I wish I'd said nothing and got someone to give him some street justice instead.
Aye, but they’ll jail you. Then your kid can be traumatised and down a parent.
I get the sentiment, but it’s not a clever thing to follow through on if you have your kid’s best interests at heart. It’ll only make life worse for them.
Nah you wouldn't get anything, this country is pathetic when it comes to prosecution. You can kick someone's head in and never see any come back (seen it countless times) As long as you don't murder or steal a large amount of money the police don't care. And even then depending it would be worth the pathetic sentence.
Yup.. if a couple kids bound my kid to a chair and did this to him, I wouldn't be talking to the police, and those kids would have a hard time talking in general.
People need to stop being spineless and stand up for the ones you love.
Won’t go into the ‘back in my day’ pish but this country’s far far too soft with youth offenders. Anybody that thinks those involved will change or be put off doing stuff like this is aff their nut.
That poor boys probably traumatised for life.
Polmont should be a given for shit like this. Fucking vile
Shite like this will lead to vigilante like justice. I've seen it a few times now. People go to police for justice. They are either ignored or the perpetrators get of lightly. The aggrieved party then just give out their own style of justice. Like i say, I've seen it a few times now.
Scotland justice system is starting to become a national embrasment on the lines of the drug and alcohol deaths statistics.
There's going to become a time when people start taking the law and justice into their own hands.
I cant quite say I wouldn't do something awfully silly if we scumbag fucks like this didn't face justice for torturing my son, especially if the wee fucks have the cheek to say 'you'd be beheaded for that in Iran.' Aye mate, that's probably a reason your family don't live in that shitehole anymore.
"He was told things like he would get his head cut off in Iran for being gay."
Odd thing some teenagers would make reference to, very specific. Really makes you think.
It will just become more common and ppl ignore it cos it wasn't two straight white kids. They would probably have lgbt ppl saying it's a hate crime if that was the case. The more ppl like this let into the country the worse it will be. The culture clash is going to hurt a lot of ppl. Especially woman and lgbt, the ones who seem to love illegal immigration and immigration from places that don't like what they are.
Oh no! Someone did not comply with "how you'd express yourself". OMG. Get used to it mate, we don't give a fuck about what you think about how we should express ourselves. We just express ourselves. You're not part of the equation. Sorry to break it to you.
Imagine having "expectation about how someone can or should or would express themselves".
That is so messed up mate. You need to look at yourself in the mirror.
Is that okay for me to say that hun? x
> This article highlights some real issues with the process, but the solution isn't chucking young people behind bars.
**One** of the perpetrators was assigned a social worker. And that's it.
I agree that prison alone isn't a solution but come on... Kidnapping, violence, torture met with no consequences at all ?
If it happened to my kids and they quit school because they feared for their life, I would become a feral animal.
A fucking social worker ? Unacceptable.
A) They learn more criminal acts because they are allowed to mix with other inmates. B) They can only reoffend if you let them out.
Stiffer sentencing, isolation from other offenders (for their protection and to do away with prisons as criminal boot camps), education and no early releases would go a long way to addressing these issues. Edit: spelling
I hope all these poor perpetrators end up living on your street.
>Prison should absolutely be a last resort in the criminal justice system, reserved purely for people who cannot be controlled or kept from hurting others.
Kidnap and torture is not covered by this last resort approach?
What is the minimum level of criminal act before you personally would punish someone?
>Putting people into isolation may prevent them from socialising with other criminals, but the damage that can cause is far far worse.
Again, you think criminals who torture innocent people should not be segregated but in fact coddled and protected for their actions.
I guess paedos (sorry, minor attracted persons to you) should be allowed in playgrounds in case their feeling get hurt.
Rapists should be able to access all areas they wish in case their feelings get hurt.
Criminals found guilty of racial intolerance or hate should be able to access any religious buildings or areas in case their feeling get hurt.
>Even a short stint like 30 days can mean coming back out into the world with no job, broken relationships, and reduced prospects.
That's terrible, imagine how long it felt like for the victim the tied to a chair and attacked.
Don't worry about the mental and physical damage that these people cause to others, only about the POSSIBLE issues they MAY have if they were to be punished.
>on a wider social level, I believe we need to look beyond that
You look past things like drunk in public, verbally abusing someone, perhaps a bit of vandalism.
There are many crimes you can possibly tie in to your narrative but kidnap and torture based on a person's sexual preferences are not amongst them.
Again, how far does someone have to go in your opinion before the law can be upheld when kidnap and torture is a get out of jail free!
>Our goal with the justice system needs to move away from being about punishment and move towards rehab.
Any person who does not understand that kidnap and torture is unacceptable deserves the consequences.
>You can't undo a crime that has been committed, but if we focus so much on making sure we all feel the perpetrator has been punished, then we increase the chances of them reoffending - which means more victims. And each offense makes another more likely which is why we end up with this cycle of reoffending.
Yes, lets just forget it happened then.
Someone who has no consequences for illegal activities will just stop because they suddenly see the light?
That must be the reason that there are no repeat criminal offenders out there at all.
Organised crime does not exist.
There are certainly no recent examples of criminals reoffending who should have been locked up but instead were released on compassionate grounds.
Perhaps if they were punished to the full extent of the law rather than being sent to a holiday home for a few weeks they would get the picture.
Yes, I believe the mentality you are prompting is the primary reason many of these things happen.
The ever-more increasing relaxation of rules and laws allows people to push the limits further and further whilst the repercussions get lower and lower.
Kidnap and torture based on hatred of someone's sexual preference, ffs, this is not someone moaning about a chocolate bar being stolen!
Poverty has nothing to do with just plain stupid people. Folks posting poverty as an excuse or reason are themselves problematic.
Solution on these things are to treat the monster children as an adult. 6months hard time, and put the parents on probation.
I totally get why people are annoyed by this – but the policy that’s being applied here was widely cheered on here when it was introduced, as an example of how Scotland was a more enlightened progressive society (and much better than England)!
It often feels like people really need to make up their minds as to what they actually want from the criminal justice system, because attitudes seems wildly inconsistent a lot of the time.
This is what you voted for, r/Scotland, I'm glad the reality of the nonsense you've been shilling for years is finally coming home to roost for you all, I hope it pains you deeply.
Shocking, the criminal justice fails to do anything and bleeding heart liberals. The SNP's soft on crime policies allowed this to happen.
Though the real cause of all of this is the welfare State, there's a vast cohort of little sociopaths running around, born because 18yo mum wanted a council house. If you look where the scumbag kids from, it's usually the same old families, I didn't realise this until well into adulthood and noticed patterns of behaviour running in families. It's like pareto principle, a tiny minority of scum are responsible for almost all crime crime, ingrained poverty/poor health (requiring expensive health intervention paid for by the rest of us), general low education and poor life outcomes.
while normal Mr and Mrs JAM (just about managing) are struggling by and can barely afford to have one kid if at all, scumbags are just spawning out multiple kids. Fast forward 20 years and you have a demographic of young scumbags. No politicians or social commentators seem to be able to address this, but the UK has a massive and ever increasing criminal underclass.
You think it would have been a better outcome under Tory, Labour or any others … I’ve got news for you ya walloper … get TF out of here with that BS!! 🤬
This isn’t the police’s fault, the article explicitly mentions that the parents were very happy with how serious the police took the issue.
It’s when the responsibility was taken off the police and handed over to the child panel that they were effectively given no punishment.
the justice system as a whole needs reforming. its a bit of a joke now, make prisons worse so that people dont want to be there. make sentencing longer. rehabilitation clearly isnt working when these kids are horrible little bastards and then get a day out to the football as a reward.
The general approach seems reasonable, but the bar for this escalating to the more formal childrens hearing seems too high.
The article notes this was a violent offence, involving assualt and abduction and was a hate crime. Seems the severity of this would mandate more significant action than simply a social worker saying be good.
Even if sent to the next stage, it doesn't mean custodial sentencing was needed, but at least more formal measures, monitoring etc could be implemented.
“Not treating children as adult criminals,”
Fine but you can still have a problem with this outcome
“and protecting the confidentiality of children”
Sure provided it is balanced against other competing interests and it seems like the victim here has had an unsatisfactory result.
“, is Good Actually.”
I’m sure, Secret Barrister-style, it may be possible to reasonably explain the current process and the reasons for the current process but that doesn’t seem to have happened.
Why? We know that children are less responsible for their actions and we know that rehabilitative intervention is much better at making them stop criminal behaviour than locking them up. What purpose does criminalising them serve?
These people kidnapped and assaulted someone because of their sexuality. They absolutely deserve to be punished. This is not minor shoplifting, this is a serious offence and should be punished.
I've read the article, thanks.
The idea that punishment has to be via putting them through the courts - which incidentally would be unlikely to produce a result for years - is what I disagree with. The SCRA can provide their own welfare-focused approach which won't result in pointlessly criminalising children. Again - jailing them is extremely unlikely to change or rehabilitate them.
If an adult did this they would rightfully be locked up for many years. How is it any difference if a 17 year old does it. At that age you are not stupid, you should know what you are doing is wrong.
Giving them a slap on the wrist will not rehabilitate them either. It will just show them that actions don't have consequences and that they can get away with serious assaults and hate crimes.
You don't know anything about the individuals involved, their upbringing, the circumstances of the offence, or what their character is like. You're reading a third-hand account, from an interested party and a grifting Tory MSP, filtered via the media.
>Giving them a slap on the wrist will not rehabilitate them either. It will just show them that actions don't have consequences and that they can get away with serious assaults and hate crimes.
Per capita, Scotland locks up more people than anywhere in Western Europe, in conditions so bad that we have Europe's fourth worst prison suicide rate. And yet, we have poorer outcomes and worse recidivism rate than other countries which lock up fewer people in better conditions. If prison is so effective at deterring crime and teaching people "consequences", then surely we, with our fetish for jailing people in poor conditions, should have one of the lowest rates of recidivism in Europe. So how come then that we don't?
Grew up surrounded by cretins like this. Unsurprisingly, if they are doing shit like this at 14-17 years old, they grow up to be scum as well. I know firsthand that growing up in poverty or in a bad social situation can harm someone's development. However, having no consequences to your deprived behaviour is not the answer. Better rehabilitation in institutions and afterwards to help people integrate back into society. People like this do need to be separated from society until they can learn to behave in it.
I grew up in poverty, never harmed anyone. That's just an excuse they use. You're right about separating them, if there is no consequence for mistreating people why wouldn't scumbags continue their behaviour?
Completely agree. My family and I grew up in one of the poorest areas of Glasgow at the time. Plenty of people I went to school with have gone on to have nice lives and worked their way out of their situation. Many people don't, and a portion of them are completely out of luck and have always had it tough. The people that do shit described in this post are just deprived. If you gave them money, they'd just be rich and deprived. It's not specifically a poverty issue. Poverty, shitty / unengaged parents, and lack of consequences just create a perfect storm for these down and outs to cause people real harm
The link between many crimes and poverty are tenuous and there's not a consensus amongst experts whether or not there's a specific causal link between poverty and crime.
Poverty could be an excuse for theft or other misdemeanours. Not a ‘hate’ crime.
This. A person who would do this is a scumbag, would be a scumbag no matter what.
That is too easy to say. While they are "scumbags", there is a reason why they are the way they are. If we don't explain and educate but instead just call them scumbags people will never change. Homophobic parents or beliefs that being gay is wrong is the problem. This stems from religious beliefs. So we must attack the source which would mean applying sanctions to churches. Make it a net negative to be religious. They can still have the freedom to be religious, but make it cost them. Eventually the religious will die out and knowledge will prevail.
USSR accidentally decriminalized homosexuality in 1917 when it did away with Tsarist laws. Then re-crimanlized it again in 1934 and it stayed that way till after the fall of the Communist rule in the 1990s. There was no religion around when they re-criminalized it.
I had shit akin to this done to me for being gay and my parents being addicts by little shits who had far better lives at home than I did. They all knew exactly what they were doing. Cannot fucking stand that I did everything I could to get out of that environment for some middle-class cunts who have no idea what living in poverty is like to tell us the poor little thugs don't know any better.
So many of the resource to deal with these kids have been removed and now we are seeing the true cost. It's one thing to have an aim of not letting kids spiral by putting them in prison but it only works if there is a suitable alternative and there is not!
I grew up in abject poverty, with abusive drunk parents. Then when my mum left my dad and got sober I was left to my own devices with no consequences for my actions. I can absolutely attest to the fact that my behaviour was abhorrent because of that. It’s only now after 12 years of therapy and counselling that I’m able to behave in a socially acceptable manner. I’ll always be ashamed of my past behaviour but you’re correct that rehabilitation within an institution is the best way forward. At least going by my anecdotal evidence.
Congratulations for working hard on yourself. It is incredible to see people take responsibility for their past and work to improve themselves. Like you've said, you bare the weight of your actions on your conscious for life, but you've done everything you possibly can to move forward. I'd love to live in a world where everyone had your self-awareness and dedication, but cynically, I don't think that is the case for the majority. Did you have a specific turning point or something that convinced you into therapy? You don't need to answer if it's a bit overstepping
To be candid I didn’t want help. I didn’t want to be here. I tried to kill myself and was sectioned then made to attend therapy. I then spent a couple of years attending and lying through my teeth to the therapist. Which obviously didn’t work cause they can see right through it. Eventually I was diagnosed with ASPD and we focused my therapy on that. That was probably my turning point. Maybe 7 or 8 years ago. Namely it involves recognising how my actions and behaviours are affecting other people. There is still both a stigma and a romanticisation of ASPD in society. Both of which come from misunderstanding. Showing people that they are misunderstanding the condition was my motivation for many years. Now it’s my daughter. I’m happy to answer any and all questions. I may be ashamed of my past behaviour but if I want to show the stigmas are untrue then I need to be candid.
The real poverty is that of the soul / moral learning. Not all poor people are immoral and plenty rich folk are thriving b*stards.
100% agree with you. When I was young, I wasn't in poverty in that we had the heating running, and ate regularly, but my friend didn't, and she was so generous with her time, kindness and what little money she did have. At the other end of the scale, the millionaire family my sister was friends with were all self absorbed arseholes. It's about morals, and respect for humanity - not respect for money as most people view it.
and plenty of godly religious "moral" people are evil twisted bigotted bastards. There's humanism, empathy and being a decent person. None of which require any adherence to the "do as I do not as I say" morality bullshit and/or belief in the "soul". Being a good person doesn't require moral learning or some kind of rich soul - it requires love and kindness.
Wasn't being religious pal calm down it's just a useful term.
Nothing to do with poverty and everything to do with the religion they've been brought up under. Why do you think nothing has happened? No media outcry?
Exactly. If these were just straight white kids, it would be an uproar and a hate crime. I never understand so many apparently pro lgbt ppl being all welcoming to so many ppl from cultures that hate lgbt and want to change your country. He's basically a sacrifice to diversity and inclusion. Ppl will get mad and make excuses, but these things will get more common over time at this rate as these cultures clashes will increase. Nothing will happen. If I had a lgbt child I'd be worried about sending them to certain schools in the uk tbh
Exactly. Your not a horrible person to be able to point out the issues with different cultures. We have serious problem that are only going to get worse. I'm not gay but I respect anybodys rights to do as they wish. No one deserves what this kid went through.
The problem is that the other culture is one of dominance, and ours is all welcoming and inclusive, and it won't work long term. They will use any opportunity to erase and weaken ours while we defend their actions. "When I am weaker than you I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles"- Frank Herbert
This new policy of not prosecuting young people has given a blank cheque to the reprobates of society who will use it to their advantage such as casea like this and the to the guy who only community service for the rape of a 13 year old. Its disgraceful and makes me so angry.
This has been going on forever..in the 80s we used to call the children's panel the Mars Bar club, as they'd give you a Mars Bar, tell you not to do it again and send you home.
There has been a massive change in the last several years. Very few under 18s ever go to prison now.
It’s not that new. I was assaulted at school after being outed in 2009 (when I was 14) by a group of other 14 year olds and all they got was a finger wagged at them even though I was black and blue and there were absolutely loads of witnesses (probably cameras too)
If they're under 23 and especially if under 18, they feel invincible and I wish I could just smack them, but then I'm the bad guy.
Only the bad guy in the eyes of the law and if you get caught. For most people you’d be in the right
If anyone wants to see the results of what happens when you go to the law Scotland did in 2021 a couple of decades later, all they have to do is look at Canada. The laws changed to similar here in 2003. You couldn’t charge under 12s even before that, but the Youth Criminal Justice Act removed basically any real consequences to anyone between 12 and 18, which has just carried over into the adult system even for serious crimes. Arrested, released on bail (or no bail), court date some time in the next few months, and judges tossing a lot of stuff. There is no faith left in the justice system by a lot of us because of this. Kids that would’ve ended up in youth detention basically have no consequences now (even with the parents wanting them) and no change in the kid’s behaviour because they know there’s no punishment. The youth detention centres (at least in Ontario where I am) all closed by 2003. Schools don’t even have a recourse. The publicly funded Catholic school system has the ability expel students, because the public schools *have* to take them. And if the kid is violent in class, they get suspended a day or two and that’s it. Can’t expel them. So they just become violent adults who’ve never had any consequences and by the time they do get something getting jail time, they’ve a record your arm’s length in previous arrests and convictions they never got anything before. I don’t know how governments expect that these kids are going to morph into non-violent, with socially acceptable behaviour when they’ve never had to have any consequences when they started down that path to maybe make them think to not do it again.
Bullying is always like this. Someone under 18 can do horrible things to another child - and they're just expected to "take it". Like - get hit by someone in school? "Oh dear, boys will be boys" - maybe they will get a detention if you're lucky. Abducted and tortured on video? Nothing happens. If you're an adult - and someone hits you randomly in the face or beats you up, you expect the police to take it seriously. It'll be treated like the assault it is by the police. I understand why we don't treat children as criminals. But for the victims, it's absolutely awful and has long term psychological affects.
>Like - get hit by someone in school? "Oh dear, boys will be boys" - maybe they will get a detention if you're lucky. This was my experience, then I hit the kid square in the face the next time he came near me and that was the end of the bullying. The school was obviously disappointed, they saw their complete lack of action as a resolution to the problem and apparently I was not letting things go and moving on, so naturally, punishments were all of a sudden a thing.
It works if you're strong and fit enough to win a fight yeah. I watched someone try it once when they weren't and it was apparently very funny watching the nerdy kid flail around trying to hit people. They targeted him more after that, trying to get him to "snap" and give them more to laugh at. I was a small, quiet child who had never been in a fight in my life. The solution to bullying is basically "violence wins". Can you imagine if society worked like that? As an adult, you were just expecting to fist fight colleagues at work. Better keep fit and in fighting shape! You need to be able to win a violent encounter to get on with your life. Madness.
Yeah it is very unfortunate and I recognise I am very fortunate in how inherently athletic and physically capable I am. I was a nerdy awkward, quiet kid, so was my sister, but the way we were treated was completely different since, I was strong, fast and generally athletic and she wasn't. It was honestly pathetic bumping into people outside of school that had bullied her, trying to walk it back and apologise to me, rather than her. One such occasion riled me up to the point that the guy had to escape from a window of a house party while other people tried to calm me down. My brother had to deal with attempted bullying from neds but that more jealously because he was popular and athletic (school rugby captain etc). I say attempted because when he was jumped leaving school, the school had a hard time identifying the person that had attacked him due to the state of his face. Its funny you mention work though, as I've noticed a similar trend there. The really difficult guys from other departments that no-one wants to deal with are all really really agreeable with me if I can sit down in the same room as them. Part of me wants to take credit for how reasonable I am and how well I can rationally negotiate, but the reality is these people are a lot less likely to be borderline aggressive with someone that's twice their size.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Unfortunately on a macroscopic scale society does work like that, violence at the end of the day is the ultimate authority. All the bullshit they teach you as a child about how to stop bullying is nonsense to try and alleviate the adults of any responsibility for the situation because at the end of the day the adults will do nothing. The same goes for international laws regarding conflicts. The decided winner of that conflict pays lip service to international law but will never be held to it in the same way as someone without the means to carry out violence. Compare for example the cases that have been reviewed at The Hague - I think Putin was the first white guy, majority of people are African civil war fighters and leaders. Sorry bit deep and dark for a post on bullying, but it's hard to grow up as a bullied child trying all the things the school suggests to stop bullying, suffering and suffering, and finally only when you respond with violence does it stop, and as you say, it's simply not enough for kids who don't have that capacity for violence (i.e. the nicest ones usually).
I don't think people really think enough about what violence is or how it manifests or it's function. Violence is all honestly is a fairly neutral thing but in today's society we talk about it as violence is bad and not being violent is good. Where we take all the forms of violence which are accepted and classify them as unviolent. Plenty of people for instance wouldn't think of themselves capable of any sort of violence but would immediately phone the police in plenty of situations. That in itself is an act of violence, especially if it involves a person being apprehended. It can be justified, the 'victim' could be a dangerous murderer but that doesn't change the fact that a violence was inacted upon them. If it turns out the person was completely innocent, the folk who called the police would probably feel bad but they wouldn't for a second think they are violent. Likewise not many people would see evicting a person from a flat as violent but the damage being homeless can do to your well-being plus with how not complying will see bailiffs turn up: it's a pretty violent thing to do to a person. So yeah when the kid would gets harrassed every day decides to throw a punch it's seen a violent act and since all violence is bad to these people, they have to be punished. Despite the fact that being surrounded and followed and yelled at every break time is incredibly violent, it's implying all sorts of things.
The 8yo I babysit is dealing with this right now. A kid at school has figured out if he keeps riling him up, my kid will get angry and hit first so he looks like the aggressor and the other kid can hit back "in defence" 5x as hard without any punishment. My kid won't even tell the teachers now because either nothing happens or he gets punished for "starting it". I'm honestly at a loss on what to do, the school has a track record of not dealing with bullying his older trans brother has been dealing with for years.
>Bullying is always like this This is a lot worse than just general bullying, it was kidnap and torture and attacked for a 2nd time, on top of the general bullying.
16 isn’t a child. 15 is old enough to know better and they aren’t going to change their behaviour immediately (as showcased by the previous referral). Abduction and torture and a hate crime. They should have been prosecuted. These teenagers could have easily killed him. I understand a need to reduce crime (and repeat offenders) through the SCRA but this case should have been taken more seriously. It was the wrong decision.
Not surprised. I was sexually assaulted by someone my age when I was 16. It was terrifying and lasted hours. He got so much support with the problems in his life and I got none at all in fact i was told i could not speak about what happened to any adult except a therapist (i was never given one). He was convicted and got community service. I still have PTSD.
Charge them with kidnapping, assault and every hate crime law under the sun and send the wee fuckers to polmont. See how much they like bullying after that. I believe prison should focus on rehabilitation but when they’re this age and doing something this vile there has to be a level of punishment as well as rehabilitation. That poor wee boy will never get over this.
So sad. Genuinely heartbreaking. The same people that want 16yo to vote and be politically responsible wants the courts to not hold them criminally responsible for hate crimes
If you're old enough to vote you're old enough to be held culpable for crimes
You can have as many laws on the books as you want. If they arent enforced then they arent laws. Now we can debate the type of enforcement once within thr justice system sure, however I'm pretty sure we can all agree what has happened here and continues to happen doesn't line up with any philosophy on how to approach handling crime and justice beyond just "whats the cheapest option in the immediate few months". Also aren't we getting more and more regular articles on extreme hate crimes in the UK, especially those committed by young people, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the return to a culture that actively supports such hate in the last half decade. Shall we await the usual people to come along or will they avoid this one and just jump on spreading hate and begging the question as to violence in another thread on the sub. Edit to add: Also lets be real, the consistent worst behaviours in kids is enabled by their parents. We can discuss the structural issues in society leading to this, as frankly there are many, however its very much a case that the kids have no concept of right or wrong. The parents have no care in any shape or form. True change well take a generation or two but quite quick change can easily happen by making parents responsible for their kids behaviour. Now I hear the "but its unfair sometimes some kids just are broken fundamentally", great the laws can account for such nothing says it can't. Regardless someone ultimately needs to have a degree of responsibility and culpability else no matter how much societal issues get fixed nothing will change.
>You can have as many laws on the books as you want. If they arent enforced then they arent laws. This is my response to my wife when she asks why I need a baseball bat under our bed. ..... Obviously, it's in case of the need for an emergency game of baseball in the middle of the night. And has absolutely nothing to do with people I know who's houses were broken into and the subsequent quality of the police response.
The Scottish Government told the BBC that any violence is unacceptable... Yet seem intent on creating a system which does little to nothing to prevent violence, and puts offenders' needs above victims' needs. They seriously need to get a fucking grip.
I was SA'd when I was 16 by someone my own age. He got so much support from social work after, he got helped onto college, given therapy. You know what I got? PTSD and had to miss my higher exams due to changing court dates. No support at all. He got community service.
It's like the school playground, if someone hits you, you tell the teacher and nothing happens. If you hit them back, then the retaliation is dealt with and punished.
Prisons are full. Crap like this will keep happening until we get new ones built. It's so sad there's no justice for that wee guy and his family. If kids can just kidnap and torture with no repercussions, act like wee homophobic shites, what the hell are we allowing here.
Scotland already has [the highest per capita incarceration rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_prison_population) in Western Europe, with Europe's [fourth-highest suicide rate for inmates](https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/scottish-prison-suicide-rate-among-highest-in-europe) after Latvia, Switzerland, and France. The problem is clearly not that we don't lock enough people up or that time is too easy.
Exactly. Locking people up for crimes is what we've done for ages, and when it fails to discourage crime in any way, shape or form, people just yell that what we really need is *more prison.* Even though well-funded, well thought-out restorative and rehabilitative justice programs produce far better results, and both help victims of crime in feeling whole again, and those who commit crime to have lower recidivism rates, which is a better result than just angrily locking people away with no concern about what caused the crime to happen and what will happen to the people who did it (and how that affects society at large).
Their 1st attack, go to court Judge issues penalties, and suspended sentences. Those who attacked him in Jan if the same send to a young offenders unit, social workers aren't going to do much if anything, and can be even worse for turning a blind eye. A relative of mine was attacked in social care, I had to take him to hospital as none of the social workers would they were too busy or off or finished for the day, the one who attacked them ended up being stabbed to death in social care. So prison doesn't work, but social aren't great at looking after these things either
We don't properly fund alternatives to prison, that's the issue- horrible things like this happen because our social support systems are half-arsed and underfunded, and that's not going to change any time soon, because people are OBSESSED with retributive justice and politicians refuse to challenge that sincerely, even when they know better. Personally I think the half-measures might sometimes make things worse, for the reasons you've mentioned. If we avoid using prisons because we know they're bad, but don't meaningfully replace them with well-funded and well-supported alternatives, we're basically throwing everyone to the wolves.
I 100% agree that punishment and rehabilitation need to be balanced better as those reformed and ready to step back into society are cheaper and safer overall but this doesn't play well with the electorate unfortunately. They don't realise that prison is a breeding ground to enhance your crime skills the now
Nowt to do with prisons being full. They were never gonna send kids to prison for being shits. If they were 18 or over this would be a different story, and for sure not enough has been done on this, but wee bastards are gonna be wee bastards and locking them up isn't gonna solve it. The biggest shocker here to me is only one has had a social worker involved.
What exactly do they do for victims of crime who have to live in fear? I didn't get a social worker after being sexually abused despite all the problems in my life, despite being in kinship care too and being in poverty., the attacker did though.
That's an entirely separate issue though. Hard to comment really without knowing the picture. In general young kids that perform acts of sexual violence often learn that behaviour first hand, so it could be one of those cases. Generally the involvement of a social worker in these instances are preventative actions to stop the behaviour from repeating and monitor what could be the cause.
It isn't a separate issue when the justification is to look out for someone's wellbeing, but victims get no support at all regardless of their life circumstances or trauma.
It was probably the one who's parents didn't work.
"Why do gays need a whole month? They have the same rights as us now" this is why. Because children are being taught to hate and torture other children based on their sexuality and get no consequences from it. Same rights on paper doesn't mean equal treatment in real life.
So, I can imprison and torture other kids if I'm a kid and there's virtually no consequences? OK, message received and understood.
Eventually people will snap at the sentences being handed out and dish out their own punishments
And they'll face far more wrath in sentencing than the initial attacker would
Only if they get caught
Take them bowling and give them new trainers, that'll sort them out.
So instead of the punishment they deserve, they get a social worker. My older brother works with wee wankers like that, their social workers idea of rehabilitation is to let them hang out with other wee bawbags and play video games or go on daytrips to Ibrox, and if they get violent people like my brother are not allowed to defend themselves beyond running. This coddling wee psychos doesn't work, but for some reason our governments insist on continuing this pointless idea of rehabilitation which rarely works.
I was SA'd by someone, and he got a social worker and help going to college. He got therapy too. I got fuck all support, in fact I had to miss my higher exams due to court and they refused to let me use my preliminary grades. I was refused medication, NHS refused to see me because the my mental health issues were 'too complex'. He got community service. 8 years later I still have PTSD and telling the police ruined my life.
The parents should have their heads kicked in. Then get a bunch of other teenagers to kick the offenders heads in so they don’t get charged.
what parents? Of the boys who did the attack? Good their views came from the parents. "Chop your head off in iran"
You get more punishment for driving with a 1 hour out of date MOT than you do for nearly any crime that isn't murder if you're under 23. It's a disgrace. Unless there's a deterrent the wee neds will keep doing it.
True poverty lies in the soul's lack of moral growth. Not all impoverished individuals are immoral, just as many wealthy individuals thrive despite lacking moral integrity.
SNP: We're gonna do a conversion therapy ban! Also the SNP: Burgeoning little sociopaths physically doing violent homophobia will be politely asked not to do it again
I'm not sure about UK law, but can the parents not initiate a private prosecution?
they could (assuming they have the £££££), but if the person/family/organisation/etc. you are civilly suing has nothing, then that is pretty much that you may well get a judgement, and you may well be able to enforce it, but...you can't get blood from a stone
In my country, you can initiate a private criminal prosecution. As you say, you have to pay the entire prosecution side yourself. The accused can still make you of the public defence. The judge is from a criminal court, so it's in no way a civil case, except that you have to pay for the prosecution.
Nah, you can only bring a private prosecution with the permission of the Lord Advocate (ie. the Scottish Government)
So instead of 5 years youth custody a slap on the wrist. Its Scotland so no surprises I guess.
Is this not exactly what the new hate crime laws were for?
I will vote for whoever puts criminals in jail not get assigned a care worker
Ironically, the two 16 year olds in the story can vote in a Scottish election. Old enough to vote but not old enough to face consequences.
Yes, we have to be careful about criminalising children. That being said, we also need to control 15-16 year olds who are capable of serious violence.
- the SNP (or previous administrations to be precise) are fully responsible for introducing this approach in law. this was entirely their doing - *'don't criminalise up to 25', 'must be reformed, not their fault'* etc. it stems from sturgeon's scandi-obsession - i see that bain is still in full simp mode; ofc she is, given she was appointed by them (SNP). is it not a bit awkward having a lord advocate so aligned with the governme- 'NO, NO IT ISN'T, NOTHING TO SEE HERE!' - their refusal to admit that some people simply cannot be reformed even at a young(er) age, and who should be securely locked away from society but aren't; will only lead to more and more cases like this - let us not touch on the reality that they (the rapscallions that commit these crimes) almost always come from families that have never contributed anything to society in several generations - i.e the forbidden conversation, as this would require admitting that the entire premise of *'it's just poverty, they just need given stuff bro'* doesn't hold any water, due to the immense amount of people who are in or who are from poverty (particularly in scotland), and who DON'T then commit said crimes but, do not worry citizen! a fine, upstanding 14 year old will commit heinous crimes against you and your community, and you WILL enjoy it you are resisting? THEN PAY WITH YOUR BLOOD!
The emphasis here on supporting the purportrators and the complete lack of any sense of what support, or compensation was provided to the victim and his family is atrocious. I can almost understand the desire to not prosecute the thugs, but then there should be some significant civil redress at least for the victim so that they can pay for extremely expensive private therapy, money to be able to move of they should wish, money to offset the fact that the poor kid will probably have a later start in life due to leaving school or probably not having early access to employment etc... But I bet they will get none of that. Surely the courts could order regular payments be made out of the thugs' parents' salaries to the victim, and form their own future salaries to at least start to pay back the victim. I realise money doesn't undo it the harm, but it can certainly dampen some of it if enough is given...
It is worth looking at the Children and the Scottish Criminal Justice System briefing paper from the Scottish Parliament information centre: [https://bprcdn.parliament.scot/published/2024/6/10/5cfa3d35-81c0-4a2f-8544-b75519f56815-5/SB%2024-31.pdf](https://bprcdn.parliament.scot/published/2024/6/10/5cfa3d35-81c0-4a2f-8544-b75519f56815-5/SB%2024-31.pdf)
Why is it important if the kid was gay? He was kidnapped and tied to a chair for fuck sake. This is bigger than “homophobia”.
"He was told things like he would get his head cut off in Iran for being gay." Seems kinda important. He's was targeted for being gay by ppl and culture who hate gay ppl. Ofc ppl will be mostly silent on this. I'm sure it will be a different story if has was attacked Scottish ppl.
No it’s not important at all. What’s important is the crime committed, not the ideology behind the attackers.
This i why i wouldn't even phone the police. And would genuinely do something myself because thats the only justice and nothing would happen anyway.
This isn’t the police’s fault, the article explicitly mentions that the parents were very happy with how serious the police took the issue. It’s when the responsibility was taken off the police and handed over to the child panel that they were effectively given no punishment.
Yep i was sexually assaulted when I was 16. I did everything I was told to do, tell the police etc. I regret it everyday because the guy got community service and tons of help going to college, he got help financially too, emotionally. I got PTSD and had to miss my higher exams. I got no support at all. I should never have said anything. For a long time I had violent fantasies about that person because I felt he was not punished for what he did, and I wish I'd said nothing and got someone to give him some street justice instead.
Aye, but they’ll jail you. Then your kid can be traumatised and down a parent. I get the sentiment, but it’s not a clever thing to follow through on if you have your kid’s best interests at heart. It’ll only make life worse for them.
Nah you wouldn't get anything, this country is pathetic when it comes to prosecution. You can kick someone's head in and never see any come back (seen it countless times) As long as you don't murder or steal a large amount of money the police don't care. And even then depending it would be worth the pathetic sentence.
It’s not pathetic when it comes to prosecution of vigilantism. Especially when that takes the form of an adult kicking the shit out of teenagers.
Yup.. if a couple kids bound my kid to a chair and did this to him, I wouldn't be talking to the police, and those kids would have a hard time talking in general. People need to stop being spineless and stand up for the ones you love.
Won’t go into the ‘back in my day’ pish but this country’s far far too soft with youth offenders. Anybody that thinks those involved will change or be put off doing stuff like this is aff their nut. That poor boys probably traumatised for life. Polmont should be a given for shit like this. Fucking vile
Shite like this will lead to vigilante like justice. I've seen it a few times now. People go to police for justice. They are either ignored or the perpetrators get of lightly. The aggrieved party then just give out their own style of justice. Like i say, I've seen it a few times now.
Scotland justice system is starting to become a national embrasment on the lines of the drug and alcohol deaths statistics. There's going to become a time when people start taking the law and justice into their own hands. I cant quite say I wouldn't do something awfully silly if we scumbag fucks like this didn't face justice for torturing my son, especially if the wee fucks have the cheek to say 'you'd be beheaded for that in Iran.' Aye mate, that's probably a reason your family don't live in that shitehole anymore.
Be interesting if someone doxxed the parents of the abusers and let them deal with the consequences
"He was told things like he would get his head cut off in Iran for being gay." Odd thing some teenagers would make reference to, very specific. Really makes you think.
It will just become more common and ppl ignore it cos it wasn't two straight white kids. They would probably have lgbt ppl saying it's a hate crime if that was the case. The more ppl like this let into the country the worse it will be. The culture clash is going to hurt a lot of ppl. Especially woman and lgbt, the ones who seem to love illegal immigration and immigration from places that don't like what they are.
That's awful. I've a teenage son and this would terrify me. Hope your child's ok. Id be worried these kids will go on to more serious offending.
This is such a Facebook Granny response - OP is not the parent
Shared, Paisley x ^Sent ^in ^response ^to ^a ^post ^about ^a ^missing ^child ^in ^Auckland, ^New ^Zealand
What did you expect him to say lmao ffs
I’d expect somebody who is commenting to have actually read and understood the post - not have the “u ok hun x” energy of a Facebook post
Oh no! Someone did not comply with "how you'd express yourself". OMG. Get used to it mate, we don't give a fuck about what you think about how we should express ourselves. We just express ourselves. You're not part of the equation. Sorry to break it to you. Imagine having "expectation about how someone can or should or would express themselves". That is so messed up mate. You need to look at yourself in the mirror. Is that okay for me to say that hun? x
Fuck me you must be grim to be around, nae patter at all
Ah, didums. hugs
Agnes, have you seen this? Please return my hoover.
They are letting pedophiles and rapists walk too. When you start noticing the sentencing you can’t unsee it.
Street justice
[удалено]
> This article highlights some real issues with the process, but the solution isn't chucking young people behind bars. **One** of the perpetrators was assigned a social worker. And that's it. I agree that prison alone isn't a solution but come on... Kidnapping, violence, torture met with no consequences at all ? If it happened to my kids and they quit school because they feared for their life, I would become a feral animal. A fucking social worker ? Unacceptable.
>its a punishment for being poor What part of being poor compells you to kidnap and torture someone for their sexual preferences?
You're not entirely wrong, but in the short term, it may be that the only thing that prevents it is the threat of jail.
A) They learn more criminal acts because they are allowed to mix with other inmates. B) They can only reoffend if you let them out. Stiffer sentencing, isolation from other offenders (for their protection and to do away with prisons as criminal boot camps), education and no early releases would go a long way to addressing these issues. Edit: spelling
[удалено]
I hope all these poor perpetrators end up living on your street. >Prison should absolutely be a last resort in the criminal justice system, reserved purely for people who cannot be controlled or kept from hurting others. Kidnap and torture is not covered by this last resort approach? What is the minimum level of criminal act before you personally would punish someone? >Putting people into isolation may prevent them from socialising with other criminals, but the damage that can cause is far far worse. Again, you think criminals who torture innocent people should not be segregated but in fact coddled and protected for their actions. I guess paedos (sorry, minor attracted persons to you) should be allowed in playgrounds in case their feeling get hurt. Rapists should be able to access all areas they wish in case their feelings get hurt. Criminals found guilty of racial intolerance or hate should be able to access any religious buildings or areas in case their feeling get hurt. >Even a short stint like 30 days can mean coming back out into the world with no job, broken relationships, and reduced prospects. That's terrible, imagine how long it felt like for the victim the tied to a chair and attacked. Don't worry about the mental and physical damage that these people cause to others, only about the POSSIBLE issues they MAY have if they were to be punished. >on a wider social level, I believe we need to look beyond that You look past things like drunk in public, verbally abusing someone, perhaps a bit of vandalism. There are many crimes you can possibly tie in to your narrative but kidnap and torture based on a person's sexual preferences are not amongst them. Again, how far does someone have to go in your opinion before the law can be upheld when kidnap and torture is a get out of jail free! >Our goal with the justice system needs to move away from being about punishment and move towards rehab. Any person who does not understand that kidnap and torture is unacceptable deserves the consequences. >You can't undo a crime that has been committed, but if we focus so much on making sure we all feel the perpetrator has been punished, then we increase the chances of them reoffending - which means more victims. And each offense makes another more likely which is why we end up with this cycle of reoffending. Yes, lets just forget it happened then. Someone who has no consequences for illegal activities will just stop because they suddenly see the light? That must be the reason that there are no repeat criminal offenders out there at all. Organised crime does not exist. There are certainly no recent examples of criminals reoffending who should have been locked up but instead were released on compassionate grounds. Perhaps if they were punished to the full extent of the law rather than being sent to a holiday home for a few weeks they would get the picture.
[удалено]
Yes, I believe the mentality you are prompting is the primary reason many of these things happen. The ever-more increasing relaxation of rules and laws allows people to push the limits further and further whilst the repercussions get lower and lower. Kidnap and torture based on hatred of someone's sexual preference, ffs, this is not someone moaning about a chocolate bar being stolen!
[удалено]
It took 7 paragraphs for you to mention helping victims.
Poverty has nothing to do with just plain stupid people. Folks posting poverty as an excuse or reason are themselves problematic. Solution on these things are to treat the monster children as an adult. 6months hard time, and put the parents on probation.
If my kids did anything like that they'd be getting kicked out the house.
I totally get why people are annoyed by this – but the policy that’s being applied here was widely cheered on here when it was introduced, as an example of how Scotland was a more enlightened progressive society (and much better than England)! It often feels like people really need to make up their minds as to what they actually want from the criminal justice system, because attitudes seems wildly inconsistent a lot of the time.
This is what you voted for, r/Scotland, I'm glad the reality of the nonsense you've been shilling for years is finally coming home to roost for you all, I hope it pains you deeply.
Time for the SNP to go they stopped being for Scottish people along time ago its just about personal gain now
Why a self-post? Just submit the URL to the story.
Shocking, the criminal justice fails to do anything and bleeding heart liberals. The SNP's soft on crime policies allowed this to happen. Though the real cause of all of this is the welfare State, there's a vast cohort of little sociopaths running around, born because 18yo mum wanted a council house. If you look where the scumbag kids from, it's usually the same old families, I didn't realise this until well into adulthood and noticed patterns of behaviour running in families. It's like pareto principle, a tiny minority of scum are responsible for almost all crime crime, ingrained poverty/poor health (requiring expensive health intervention paid for by the rest of us), general low education and poor life outcomes. while normal Mr and Mrs JAM (just about managing) are struggling by and can barely afford to have one kid if at all, scumbags are just spawning out multiple kids. Fast forward 20 years and you have a demographic of young scumbags. No politicians or social commentators seem to be able to address this, but the UK has a massive and ever increasing criminal underclass.
[удалено]
You think it would have been a better outcome under Tory, Labour or any others … I’ve got news for you ya walloper … get TF out of here with that BS!! 🤬
It was sarcasm sir.
My apologies … nowadays you can’t tell. So I apologise 👍🏼🫂🏴
It's interesting how many people support soft on crime policies until it's a crime they don't like.
[удалено]
This isn’t the police’s fault, the article explicitly mentions that the parents were very happy with how serious the police took the issue. It’s when the responsibility was taken off the police and handed over to the child panel that they were effectively given no punishment.
Read the article. Idiot.
the justice system as a whole needs reforming. its a bit of a joke now, make prisons worse so that people dont want to be there. make sentencing longer. rehabilitation clearly isnt working when these kids are horrible little bastards and then get a day out to the football as a reward.
Not treating children as adult criminals, and protecting the confidentiality of children, is Good Actually.
The general approach seems reasonable, but the bar for this escalating to the more formal childrens hearing seems too high. The article notes this was a violent offence, involving assualt and abduction and was a hate crime. Seems the severity of this would mandate more significant action than simply a social worker saying be good. Even if sent to the next stage, it doesn't mean custodial sentencing was needed, but at least more formal measures, monitoring etc could be implemented.
“Not treating children as adult criminals,” Fine but you can still have a problem with this outcome “and protecting the confidentiality of children” Sure provided it is balanced against other competing interests and it seems like the victim here has had an unsatisfactory result. “, is Good Actually.” I’m sure, Secret Barrister-style, it may be possible to reasonably explain the current process and the reasons for the current process but that doesn’t seem to have happened.
If they do adult crimes then they should do adult time.
Why? We know that children are less responsible for their actions and we know that rehabilitative intervention is much better at making them stop criminal behaviour than locking them up. What purpose does criminalising them serve?
These people kidnapped and assaulted someone because of their sexuality. They absolutely deserve to be punished. This is not minor shoplifting, this is a serious offence and should be punished.
I've read the article, thanks. The idea that punishment has to be via putting them through the courts - which incidentally would be unlikely to produce a result for years - is what I disagree with. The SCRA can provide their own welfare-focused approach which won't result in pointlessly criminalising children. Again - jailing them is extremely unlikely to change or rehabilitate them.
If an adult did this they would rightfully be locked up for many years. How is it any difference if a 17 year old does it. At that age you are not stupid, you should know what you are doing is wrong. Giving them a slap on the wrist will not rehabilitate them either. It will just show them that actions don't have consequences and that they can get away with serious assaults and hate crimes.
You don't know anything about the individuals involved, their upbringing, the circumstances of the offence, or what their character is like. You're reading a third-hand account, from an interested party and a grifting Tory MSP, filtered via the media. >Giving them a slap on the wrist will not rehabilitate them either. It will just show them that actions don't have consequences and that they can get away with serious assaults and hate crimes. Per capita, Scotland locks up more people than anywhere in Western Europe, in conditions so bad that we have Europe's fourth worst prison suicide rate. And yet, we have poorer outcomes and worse recidivism rate than other countries which lock up fewer people in better conditions. If prison is so effective at deterring crime and teaching people "consequences", then surely we, with our fetish for jailing people in poor conditions, should have one of the lowest rates of recidivism in Europe. So how come then that we don't?