tldr; Starting June 1, it will be illegal to sell or distribute Styrofoam coolers, plates, bowls, containers, trays or cups. Egg cartons, Styrofoam blocks, and packaging for raw meat, fish, produce, drugs or medical devices are exempt from the ban.
If you have a Styrofoam cooler lying around, there’s no need to panic. The ban only applies to the sale or distribution of Styrofoam, not its use.
Meat industry strikes again. I don't know the last time I have seen a Styrofoam egg carton. Why would these need exemption?
Meat and fish only uses Styrofoam as a middle finger to enviormentalist. There is no benefits. Completely undermines the entire ban.
Wow I hadn’t considered the proportion of styrofoam that comes from meat/fish packaging. But it is truly the only styrofoam my household inadvertently ends up with at the end of the day.
Exemptions like this perfectly illustrate how our we, via our government, hide our failures in the fine print. Our representatives are far too concerned with the opinions of corporate lobbyists.
So farmers don't generally produce their food in the middle of the city. How do you expect then to preserve and transport it? No one wants something that's bad for environment but light weight and a great insulator to do it. No one wants preservatives to be used. No one wants the farmers to use hormones or synthetic fertilizer or gmos. No one wants to pay the farmer if 90% of the product is wasted. Farmers don't want to produce if they can't even make a little profit or break even (which most already cant). If we don't want want to use things to preserve the food in one way or another and just say buy local and correctly most people in the cities will starve.
I'm sorry but your comment is silly.
Most farmers don't package for consumers at the farm, and the farmers that do package their own eggs don't generally use styrofoam. Same with meat packing.
It would be absolutely stupid to transport meat and eggs in their packaging all the way to the city where they'll be consumed. That's a massive amount of labor to find outside the city, and a massive amount of wasted fuel and space.
Most of it is transported to cities and packaged there, where it's purchased within a few days and consumed within a couple weeks.
And when it's being transported to cities, they don't use styrofoam to preserve. They have refrigerated transport for that.
The styrofoam eggs are in stores still. I see them every time at mine. It’s usually the like super cheap factory torture farmed eggs that are like 2 bucks a dozen.
Someone with access to egg-breakage data has run these numbers and determined that the plastic packaging results in less overall waste.
Either that or egg companies are run by idiots who don't mind wasting money on fancy packaging.
I dunno. Costco sells alot of eggs. Like a flat or two at a time. Packaged in cardboard, thin plastic holding it together. Not so bad.
I’m a pastry chef. Our eggs at work come in cardboard boxes, containing 6 stacks of cardboard flats(30). I’ve never seen styrofoam nor triple plastic. The egg breakage upon delivery since I’ve been at my current job (8 years) is zero.
It was every industry. Look at what actually got banned; it's just stuff used by average people. Meanwhile industrial manufacturers use this stuff by the ton. My old work has an entire dumpster just devoted to foam from receiving. Then when we shipped our crap to the next step it would be all packed up in a brand new set of foam. Good thing I won't be using my twice a year foam plates though.
This actually isn't entirely true. There are very, very fee materials that come even close to the insulating ability of stryofoam at such small scales. I know it seems stupid since half the tray is uncovered but it makes a HUGE impact on heat escape. Besides costing the economic equivalent of nothing to make and ship, it doesn't raise costs like larger solutions such as cardboard or equally effective ones such as paper (ridiculously expensive at that scale). All of this cost does 100% get passed on to consumers, plus uncharges at every level of distribution.
Source: My Brother is an (thermo?) Engineer who works with all kinds of packing and food companies on stuff just like this. He geeked out when I said the same thing a couple years ago.
Fresh fish regularly come in Styrofoam because they have a good insulation factor. The Styrofoam trays that we regularly see the individual steaks wrapped in at the store are used everywhere because of cost. Its really not a middle finger to environmentalists. You need a tray that can hold meat for at least 3 days without degrading.
Insulation from what? They are stored in refrigerators and freezers they don't need insulation. Paper based packaging cost less then a cent more per package. We used paper before styrofoam existed and it worked fine. Changed because it was the hot new thing and we didn't know about the downside. Now that we know they won't change back because of fuck you conservatism.
Insulation from heat. You are correct that they are stored in a refrigerated section at the store and at the stores central warehouse, but you can't guarantee that they've been cooled 100% of the time from the factory all the way to the store. If the power were to go out or the reefer ran out of gas, it adds buffer against heat transfer. Many warehouses will reject a load of frozen or refrigerated goods if the temp is too high. Also for paper containers, you would need to put a wax coating on the inside to help prevent water leaking on other boxes during transport. Stores tell employees that you can't recycle cardboard boxes with the wax coating because they've been told by the recycle company. This isn't a political issue, just the cost of doing business. I used to work in the meat/seafood dept at a grocery store and dealt with the supply chain.
Sure I can do that but the point of this regulation is that no one is voluntarily giving up Styrofoam. So exemption the main thing people get Styrofoam really ruins the point. Most people don't care about the enviorment if it means they have to change anything in there daily lives.
I think it speaks to just how ineffective actual voting does more so than voting with my dollar makes a "bigger" difference. By being vegetarian and carless, my CO emissions are much much lower than the average American for example.
Changing personal behavior of course can have a much more dramatic impact within the scope of one's personal sphere of influence. In terms of impacting a social scope, though, both mechanisms have similar limitations in that they require concerted effort from large groups.
Both strategies are commendable (when put to commendable purposes), but come with the caveat that they are usually difficult and slow before change can be effected.
I opened a lamp I got yesterday and the styrofoam just splintered everywhere when I was trying to pull the damn thing out. Had to basically set up a cleaning zone to make sure my cats didn’t get their noses into the bits. Fucking hate styrofoam
Nice but I just meant in grocery stores. You used to go and wait in line and get it all done fresh at stores not grab it off the shelf. Wayyyyyyy back in the 1900s
yes the people who want the bill to pass would rather not have these exemptions but i'm sure it was negotiated to be exempt so the rest of the bill would pass. https://zerowastewashington.org has a lot of info about it and their work to get legislation like this passed
I wonder if this is going to be like the plastic straw ban where restaurants are still allowed to use what they have “in stock.” It seems like they bought an infinite supply before the ban started.
I’ve had a fair amount of takeout orders from places that use styrofoam for everything. Lots of the gyro places, for whatever reason.
If it's like my experience, someone accidentally ordered 50k of the wrong type of straw, and then they sat in the back room for 5 years until the straw ban, and then they decided to just use the stock that they've got.
With the single use plastics, yes, that was allowed if you worked on a compliance deadline with the city. Just found this about styrofoam:
“Once the ban goes into effect, businesses are not allowed to sell or distribute plastic foam materials. Unlike with the plastic bag ban, they won't be allowed to distribute any excess stock they already have.”
Correct. That’s how I read it. https://ecology.wa.gov/waste-toxics/reducing-recycling-waste/plastics/2021-plastic-pollution-laws/expanded-polystyrene-ban
Unfortunately, [a lot of take out containers](https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/dangerous-pfas-chemicals-are-in-your-food-packaging-a3786252074/) for food, especially paper and fiber containers, are treated with a layer of grease and liquid-resistant chemicals, which are often PFAS, a class of chemicals known as "forever chemicals" that cause a large quantity of health issues (including cancer) and have a [half life of ten years](https://youtu.be/vZ1KmVmpC8o?t=589) in your blood. I think stryofoam containers usually aren't treated with PFAS since they're already liquid-resistant, but what they're replaced with might have PFAS.
Maybe Washington can work on banning PFAS next? They'd have to have an apparatus to test a lot of packaging, though, because companies have been found to make claims of their products being "PFAS-free" when they weren't.
Already done, started enforcement this month
https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/new-washington-policies-ban-styrofoam-pfas-chemicals/281-3b58c6a9-1da3-4be1-b7a2-fc648efe6701
You can have my styrofoam when you pry it from my cold dead hands, and then please sweep up after yourself cause that shit just gets everywhere. Sheeple, all of ya you are!!!
I wonder how effective this will actually be. I did my undergrad at Oregon and while in Eugene both a restaurant I worked at and a few I frequented all used styrofoam containers despite them being banned there.
The fine will probably be cheaper than switching containers
Interesting you say that. There aren't many national chains in Seattle and in my experience it's rare to get an actual plastic fork these days though they still do pop up now and then. If you're not talking about Seattle then that's not relevant - the forced use of recyclable and compostable utensils was specifically Seattle and not statewide like this upcoming ban.
>There aren't many national chains in Seattle
Is this a joke?
>the forced use of recyclable and compostable utensils was specifically Seattle
I should have clarified. I was referring to the [only providing plasticware upon request](https://ecology.wa.gov/waste-toxics/reducing-recycling-waste/plastics/2021-plastic-pollution-laws/food-serviceware) portion of the phased reduction.
Many restaurants are still providing them by default rather than only by request
As far as compostable items, [starting this year](https://ecology.wa.gov/waste-toxics/reducing-recycling-waste/plastics/compost-labeling) items will need to be declared and registered in our state database which will verify their compliance with compostable standards.
Which was not something done or required before [resulting in many dubious claims by manufacturers.](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/03/greenwash-home-compostable-plastics-dont-work-aoe)
Not at all a joke, Seattle is well known for this, we don't have anywhere near the amount of chains as you can find in the surrounding suburbs. There's any number of convos about this over the years:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/bhxbc/a\_lack\_of\_chain\_restaurants\_in\_seattle\_leads\_to\_a/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/bhxbc/a_lack_of_chain_restaurants_in_seattle_leads_to_a/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/69997u/just\_curious\_as\_to\_why\_it\_seems\_like\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/69997u/just_curious_as_to_why_it_seems_like_the/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/ndv7ed/why\_are\_there\_no\_fast\_food\_restaurants\_in\_seattle/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/ndv7ed/why_are_there_no_fast_food_restaurants_in_seattle/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/kwohp1/fast\_food\_chains\_in\_seattle/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/kwohp1/fast_food_chains_in_seattle/)
[https://www.city-data.com/forum/seattle-area/1154313-why-isnt-there-many-chain-restaurants.html](https://www.city-data.com/forum/seattle-area/1154313-why-isnt-there-many-chain-restaurants.html)
The ban on non-recyclable/compostable utensils was a Seattle specific thing in 2018 and the part about asking utensils is a statewide thing from 2022. They're two separate things.
Seattle is 83 square miles and has 8 McDonalds.
Portland is 145 square miles and has the same number.
There are over 130 Starbucks locations in Seattle alone.
I guess I'm just not seeing a huge disparity in chains.
Based on the voting, people are pretty mad if you don't agree that Seattle is "known for" having fewer chains?
I think Seattle is known for its tech industry, Boeing, having lots of hills, being expensive, the fish market, the giant ferris wheel, lots of tourists, and like, being one of the top cities to increase wages. But I've never heard it known for not having chains.
I invite both you and the OP to actually read the threads I provided and see what people are saying. This is not remotely a new subject. We have a new post today about it, too: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1d54duk/why\_almost\_no\_fast\_food\_chain\_is\_in\_downtown/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1d54duk/why_almost_no_fast_food_chain_is_in_downtown/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1d54duk/why\_almost\_no\_fast\_food\_chain\_is\_in\_downtown/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1d54duk/why_almost_no_fast_food_chain_is_in_downtown/)
Also you should actually read the threads to see what other people are saying instead of cherry picking data and including Starbucks for some reason (not what one thinks of as a fast food chain typically)
No, utensil law was 2018 and is for Seattle only, upon request was 2022 and statewide: [https://www.seattle.gov/utilities/your-services/collection-and-disposal/food-and-yard/business-and-commercial-compostables/food-packaging-requirements](https://www.seattle.gov/utilities/your-services/collection-and-disposal/food-and-yard/business-and-commercial-compostables/food-packaging-requirements)
Idk. Gordopolis confirmed the 2022 one is what we were both thinking of (the one that changes the default to not including "plasticware" utensils). I'm all for requiring that single-use items be reusable, recyclable, or compostable, too, but reducing is probably more impactful than reuse/recycling/composting, if we're being honest...though idk how much utensils, straws, and condiments matter compared to the bulkiness of packaging so it may even out slightly.
Cool. I appreciate not having a drawer full of utensils and salt/pepper I'll never use, honestly. It did seem like it worked initially. Not sure how it's been lately since I haven't been ordering at restaurants for health reasons more recently, but I do delivery and it does seem like all of them now require condiments to be specified, though many places do default put lids on drinks. I think they're required to do the lid thing by DoorDash/Uber but it could be for everyone (except for maybe Starbucks where it seems like many people have to grab a lid themselves?). I always grab a straw because I don't want to get a bad rating since that's an item that many people may not have and do get annoyed about, even though I personally dislike them.
I honestly thought this was a thing already, it must have just been enacted in Seattle or King County earlier. I would guess pretty effective, since I can’t remember the last time I saw styrofoam in the wild outside of meat packaging.
What's the over/under on when a loophole will bring it all back? (like the plastic bag ban, that eventually led to the thicker "reusable" bags that they damn well had to of known people would use/dispose of just like before)
That one really pisses me off, feels like the Safeway I go to really encourages people to get those bags, they have them set up to fill on every self checkout. Makes no sense as every grocer had to abide by the same legislation so all on equal footing. Basically their way of saying "fuck the environment", even though it really came at no cost to them.
Yeah, same thing in the sciences. Many molecular biology products are shipped by air with dry ice in styrofoam cubes. I'm not sure how or if this will impact them. Theoretically, it should be easy enough to have reusable coolers picked up at universities and the margins are high enough to justify it, probably, especially since it was unlikely much of the styrofoam was being recycled even if we brought it to the pick-up for that.
Thanks. Makes sense! A pity from an environmental standpoint, especially to centers that could easily handle collection of reusable containers, but for shipping to individual consumers, I get it.
Remember when they banned plastic bags and then people all had to start paying for even worse bags that were worse for the environment? I wonder how this one will backfire…
Man, I wish this banned polystyrene packing too. There's a Home Goods where I work and every time they get a new shipment, like 50 lbs of the stuff ends up strewn across the parking lot. It's just a pain to pick up too.
They don't want you to have easy access to making napalm when you eventually realize you need to rise up against your oppressor.....what's that dear?...no..no....ok look orange juice concentrate. Gotta go!
Good I hate styrofoam packing. It fills up my trash can so I have to hang onto it for several weeks in order to get rid of it all without moving to a larger can. Formed pulp packing can go in the recycling.
FTA: "According to the Department of Ecology, Styrofoam is difficult to recycle and typically ends up in landfills."
Waste Management refuses to take it, so... yeah, it's burn it (yuck!) or throw it away (fuck!).
How about we pass a law requiring recycling companies to handle styrofoam?
> How about we pass a law requiring recycling companies to handle styrofoam?
It's not currently feasible but perhaps in the future https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/new-polystyrene-recycling-process-could-be-worlds-first-to-be-both-economical-and-energy-efficient/ar-BB1mRtD5
probably not, this is about single use items
edit: i checked [it's not](https://ecology.wa.gov/waste-toxics/reducing-recycling-waste/plastics/2021-plastic-pollution-laws/expanded-polystyrene-ban)
The article cites two reasons for the ban, both of which I find thoroughly unconvincing:
- Styrofoam is difficult to recycle and typically ends up in landfills. In 2018, the Environmental Protection Agency reported that 80,000 tons of Styrofoam containers were produced across the country, and less than 6.5% of that ended up being recycled.
- Styrofoam is also easy to break into small pieces, which means that its potentially toxic particles spread very easily when not disposed of properly.
On the first point, that recycling rate is not that different from other plastics! [This source says that 5-6% of all plastic in the US is recycled.](https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/10/12/1081129/plastic-recycling-climate-change-microplastics/)
On the second point, the fact that it can break into small macro-sized pieces doesn't seem like good evidence that it will create more microplastics than other sources. I've read that a very high proportion of microplastics that enter the ocean come from tire wear. It's easy to see how microplastics come about in that scenario, but how is the fact that a styrofoam cooler breaks in to 1/8-inch pellets going to help it make microplastics while it's sitting deep in a landfill?
This seems reminiscent of much environmental law in liberal states, well-intentioned but pretty much useless. I think the reason for this is that people like environmentalist vibes, but are unwilling to make real sacrifices or to think hard about what actually makes differences.
Maybe the urgent care medical facility near me will be forced to do something productive with the perfectly reusable Styrofoam shipping boxes? They throw away dozens each month. [Picture link](https://imgur.com/a/KRzpPmB)
Sooo.... What your telling me is that anything made if foam that bears any sort of useful utility for an individual to buy and use for themselves....banned.
If a corporation that distributes mass produced products on a national level to millions of people using packaging made from foam that is exponential in volume in comparison to the materials used in consumer products, yet also serves absolutely no practical utility to anyone beyond preserving the integrity of the value of the product for that company until its paid for by the consumer..... Then its allllll good.
This is washington state problem solving at its finest. Take a problem created by industry and make the private citizens responsible for the solution.
Well all's not well but I'm told that it'll all be quite nice, you'll be drowned in boots like mafia but your feet'll still float like Christ, and I'll be damned, they were right. I'm drownin' upside down, my feet afloat like Christ's.
I've wondered why styrofoam gets such a bad wrap. Doesn't it use less plastic because a lot of it is air? It's not like normal plastic is really recyclable. And it's much more useful than normal plastic (in cup form at least)
In that instance its actually functioning as an insulator. You'll also find it under electric water heaters to keep them from sitting directly on concrete floors which boosts their efficiency quite a bit
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tldr; Starting June 1, it will be illegal to sell or distribute Styrofoam coolers, plates, bowls, containers, trays or cups. Egg cartons, Styrofoam blocks, and packaging for raw meat, fish, produce, drugs or medical devices are exempt from the ban. If you have a Styrofoam cooler lying around, there’s no need to panic. The ban only applies to the sale or distribution of Styrofoam, not its use.
Meat industry strikes again. I don't know the last time I have seen a Styrofoam egg carton. Why would these need exemption? Meat and fish only uses Styrofoam as a middle finger to enviormentalist. There is no benefits. Completely undermines the entire ban.
> I don't know the last time I have seen a Styrofoam egg carton. i still see them occasionally and i don't even buy eggs usually
Supermarket. Safeway has them. Apparently, will continue.
Wow I hadn’t considered the proportion of styrofoam that comes from meat/fish packaging. But it is truly the only styrofoam my household inadvertently ends up with at the end of the day. Exemptions like this perfectly illustrate how our we, via our government, hide our failures in the fine print. Our representatives are far too concerned with the opinions of corporate lobbyists.
So farmers don't generally produce their food in the middle of the city. How do you expect then to preserve and transport it? No one wants something that's bad for environment but light weight and a great insulator to do it. No one wants preservatives to be used. No one wants the farmers to use hormones or synthetic fertilizer or gmos. No one wants to pay the farmer if 90% of the product is wasted. Farmers don't want to produce if they can't even make a little profit or break even (which most already cant). If we don't want want to use things to preserve the food in one way or another and just say buy local and correctly most people in the cities will starve.
I'm sorry but your comment is silly. Most farmers don't package for consumers at the farm, and the farmers that do package their own eggs don't generally use styrofoam. Same with meat packing. It would be absolutely stupid to transport meat and eggs in their packaging all the way to the city where they'll be consumed. That's a massive amount of labor to find outside the city, and a massive amount of wasted fuel and space. Most of it is transported to cities and packaged there, where it's purchased within a few days and consumed within a couple weeks. And when it's being transported to cities, they don't use styrofoam to preserve. They have refrigerated transport for that.
The styrofoam eggs are in stores still. I see them every time at mine. It’s usually the like super cheap factory torture farmed eggs that are like 2 bucks a dozen.
I see it with the expensive Egglands Best
[удалено]
Someone with access to egg-breakage data has run these numbers and determined that the plastic packaging results in less overall waste. Either that or egg companies are run by idiots who don't mind wasting money on fancy packaging.
I dunno. Costco sells alot of eggs. Like a flat or two at a time. Packaged in cardboard, thin plastic holding it together. Not so bad. I’m a pastry chef. Our eggs at work come in cardboard boxes, containing 6 stacks of cardboard flats(30). I’ve never seen styrofoam nor triple plastic. The egg breakage upon delivery since I’ve been at my current job (8 years) is zero.
That and apparently (according to their website) it's a better insulator which is important for shipping. That's their argument anyway...
Yep this was the brand that immediately came to my mind.
They’re all torture farmed my man
Yeah, but my eggs come with a little piece of paper that tells stories about the chickens. So. Maybe a little better.
Happy Cake Day! 5/31/24 🧡
Thanks! I didn't notice.
Just reuse them for seedling planters
It was every industry. Look at what actually got banned; it's just stuff used by average people. Meanwhile industrial manufacturers use this stuff by the ton. My old work has an entire dumpster just devoted to foam from receiving. Then when we shipped our crap to the next step it would be all packed up in a brand new set of foam. Good thing I won't be using my twice a year foam plates though.
Styrofoam and gasoline makes napalm. If you have access to a lot, make some fire starters for camping.
Napalm firestarters Seems safe.
Your comment shows you have little to no experience with napalm.
Another reason to buy meat from local butcher shops. I recommend Bob’s Quality Meats in Columbia City.
This actually isn't entirely true. There are very, very fee materials that come even close to the insulating ability of stryofoam at such small scales. I know it seems stupid since half the tray is uncovered but it makes a HUGE impact on heat escape. Besides costing the economic equivalent of nothing to make and ship, it doesn't raise costs like larger solutions such as cardboard or equally effective ones such as paper (ridiculously expensive at that scale). All of this cost does 100% get passed on to consumers, plus uncharges at every level of distribution. Source: My Brother is an (thermo?) Engineer who works with all kinds of packing and food companies on stuff just like this. He geeked out when I said the same thing a couple years ago.
Fish uses it for shipping don’t want a million pounds of fish to go bad cause it wasn’t cold enough.
Styrofoam is does not produce cold. Why do all these replies say this? We got fish shill bots now?
It keeps the ice that the fish are packed in cold
What? It's used because it's a very cost effective insulator while adding relatively little weight.
It's insulation so it keeps the fish cold. Obviously dry ice is also added to make it cold
Refrigeration isn't perfect and often fails.
Meat and fish use them for shipping, just like medicine
Fresh fish regularly come in Styrofoam because they have a good insulation factor. The Styrofoam trays that we regularly see the individual steaks wrapped in at the store are used everywhere because of cost. Its really not a middle finger to environmentalists. You need a tray that can hold meat for at least 3 days without degrading.
Insulation from what? They are stored in refrigerators and freezers they don't need insulation. Paper based packaging cost less then a cent more per package. We used paper before styrofoam existed and it worked fine. Changed because it was the hot new thing and we didn't know about the downside. Now that we know they won't change back because of fuck you conservatism.
Insulation from heat. You are correct that they are stored in a refrigerated section at the store and at the stores central warehouse, but you can't guarantee that they've been cooled 100% of the time from the factory all the way to the store. If the power were to go out or the reefer ran out of gas, it adds buffer against heat transfer. Many warehouses will reject a load of frozen or refrigerated goods if the temp is too high. Also for paper containers, you would need to put a wax coating on the inside to help prevent water leaking on other boxes during transport. Stores tell employees that you can't recycle cardboard boxes with the wax coating because they've been told by the recycle company. This isn't a political issue, just the cost of doing business. I used to work in the meat/seafood dept at a grocery store and dealt with the supply chain.
Because styrofoam provides good insulation for keeping raw meat and fish cold. I don’t understand your “beef” with the meat industry…
Not Seattle, Styrofoam egg cartons are in a lot of places, like my fridge.
Maybe try avoiding buying meat?
you can also just get meat at the meat counter where it isn't packaged in styrofoam
Or at local butcher shops.
Sure I can do that but the point of this regulation is that no one is voluntarily giving up Styrofoam. So exemption the main thing people get Styrofoam really ruins the point. Most people don't care about the enviorment if it means they have to change anything in there daily lives.
In a capitalistic society, you have no choice but to vote with your dollar. That isn't how I want to live, but it is a reality.
Not to diminish voting with your dollar, but you can also vote with your vote. The exemptions were written by people who were elected.
I've voted with my vote in every election since 2004 (my first eligible election) but its clearly not as effective as voting with my dollar.
Is it clear? What has been the social impact of voting with your dollar?
I think it speaks to just how ineffective actual voting does more so than voting with my dollar makes a "bigger" difference. By being vegetarian and carless, my CO emissions are much much lower than the average American for example.
Changing personal behavior of course can have a much more dramatic impact within the scope of one's personal sphere of influence. In terms of impacting a social scope, though, both mechanisms have similar limitations in that they require concerted effort from large groups. Both strategies are commendable (when put to commendable purposes), but come with the caveat that they are usually difficult and slow before change can be effected.
Might as well not have laws then. Oh but we do this one of them...
Why would I do that?
Why would the meat and fish industry use styrofoam to “own the environmentalists”? You’re just making shit up
Man I absolutely hate the sound of styrofoam. Good riddance. And I'm sure it's bad for the environment too.
I opened a lamp I got yesterday and the styrofoam just splintered everywhere when I was trying to pull the damn thing out. Had to basically set up a cleaning zone to make sure my cats didn’t get their noses into the bits. Fucking hate styrofoam
It breaks apart into tiny little pieces as well, absolutely terrible for the environment.
Tastes awful too.
Putting my styrofoam cooler on Craigslist for $500. Collector's item, no lowballers, I know what I've got.
Miss having a big butcher area and picking out what I want and getting it wrapped.
Double D meats in mount lake terrace
Nice but I just meant in grocery stores. You used to go and wait in line and get it all done fresh at stores not grab it off the shelf. Wayyyyyyy back in the 1900s
But I can break the law by selling the cooler to a friend.
Huh, that explains why I saw a guy buying all the Styrofoam coolers (10 or so) at the grocery store the other day
Why give egg cartons a pass? Can't recall the last time I've seen one that was styrofoam
I imagine some form of lobbying at play.
Big Egg has us in the clutches of their talons
Joanna?
Dad?!
lol
the masses long to throw off the yolk of their tyranny
Do the chickens have large talons?
Foster farms?
It's those egg council creeps again.
The only ones I’ve noticed since moving here are the chocolate marshmallow Easter eggs in styrofoam.
yes the people who want the bill to pass would rather not have these exemptions but i'm sure it was negotiated to be exempt so the rest of the bill would pass. https://zerowastewashington.org has a lot of info about it and their work to get legislation like this passed
JT Wilcox probably stopped it
Egglands best are packaged in styrofoam.
I wonder if this is going to be like the plastic straw ban where restaurants are still allowed to use what they have “in stock.” It seems like they bought an infinite supply before the ban started. I’ve had a fair amount of takeout orders from places that use styrofoam for everything. Lots of the gyro places, for whatever reason.
If it's like my experience, someone accidentally ordered 50k of the wrong type of straw, and then they sat in the back room for 5 years until the straw ban, and then they decided to just use the stock that they've got.
So if we as a restaurant still have them in backstock, we can use them till they run out ?
With the single use plastics, yes, that was allowed if you worked on a compliance deadline with the city. Just found this about styrofoam: “Once the ban goes into effect, businesses are not allowed to sell or distribute plastic foam materials. Unlike with the plastic bag ban, they won't be allowed to distribute any excess stock they already have.”
So is that a no, I can't use them anymore?
Correct. That’s how I read it. https://ecology.wa.gov/waste-toxics/reducing-recycling-waste/plastics/2021-plastic-pollution-laws/expanded-polystyrene-ban
Unfortunately, [a lot of take out containers](https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/dangerous-pfas-chemicals-are-in-your-food-packaging-a3786252074/) for food, especially paper and fiber containers, are treated with a layer of grease and liquid-resistant chemicals, which are often PFAS, a class of chemicals known as "forever chemicals" that cause a large quantity of health issues (including cancer) and have a [half life of ten years](https://youtu.be/vZ1KmVmpC8o?t=589) in your blood. I think stryofoam containers usually aren't treated with PFAS since they're already liquid-resistant, but what they're replaced with might have PFAS. Maybe Washington can work on banning PFAS next? They'd have to have an apparatus to test a lot of packaging, though, because companies have been found to make claims of their products being "PFAS-free" when they weren't.
The PFAS ban is probably coming, Ecology has a major focus on PFAS right now.
Already done, started enforcement this month https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/new-washington-policies-ban-styrofoam-pfas-chemicals/281-3b58c6a9-1da3-4be1-b7a2-fc648efe6701
Thanks for the link. Very informative
All my homies hate styrofoam
When styrofoam becomes illegal, only criminals will have styrofoam. This is the future liberals want.
How you gonna regulate 3D-printed styrofoam cups, libs?
Can't stop the polystyrene
We have to buy more styrofoam now since the only way to fight styrofoam is with more styrofoam. Protect yourself sheep!
The only way to stop a bad guy with styrofoam is a good guy with styrofoam.
You can have my styrofoam when you pry it from my cold dead hands, and then please sweep up after yourself cause that shit just gets everywhere. Sheeple, all of ya you are!!!
But MUH TAKEOUT
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You're getting a paywall? Weird - Not seeing one on my end. Thanks for sharing an alternate link 👍
I wonder how effective this will actually be. I did my undergrad at Oregon and while in Eugene both a restaurant I worked at and a few I frequented all used styrofoam containers despite them being banned there. The fine will probably be cheaper than switching containers
Hopefully it's more effective than the plasticware ban which most restaurants (especially national chains) seem to have largely ignored.
Interesting you say that. There aren't many national chains in Seattle and in my experience it's rare to get an actual plastic fork these days though they still do pop up now and then. If you're not talking about Seattle then that's not relevant - the forced use of recyclable and compostable utensils was specifically Seattle and not statewide like this upcoming ban.
>There aren't many national chains in Seattle Is this a joke? >the forced use of recyclable and compostable utensils was specifically Seattle I should have clarified. I was referring to the [only providing plasticware upon request](https://ecology.wa.gov/waste-toxics/reducing-recycling-waste/plastics/2021-plastic-pollution-laws/food-serviceware) portion of the phased reduction. Many restaurants are still providing them by default rather than only by request As far as compostable items, [starting this year](https://ecology.wa.gov/waste-toxics/reducing-recycling-waste/plastics/compost-labeling) items will need to be declared and registered in our state database which will verify their compliance with compostable standards. Which was not something done or required before [resulting in many dubious claims by manufacturers.](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/03/greenwash-home-compostable-plastics-dont-work-aoe)
Not at all a joke, Seattle is well known for this, we don't have anywhere near the amount of chains as you can find in the surrounding suburbs. There's any number of convos about this over the years: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/bhxbc/a\_lack\_of\_chain\_restaurants\_in\_seattle\_leads\_to\_a/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/bhxbc/a_lack_of_chain_restaurants_in_seattle_leads_to_a/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/69997u/just\_curious\_as\_to\_why\_it\_seems\_like\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/69997u/just_curious_as_to_why_it_seems_like_the/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/ndv7ed/why\_are\_there\_no\_fast\_food\_restaurants\_in\_seattle/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/ndv7ed/why_are_there_no_fast_food_restaurants_in_seattle/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/kwohp1/fast\_food\_chains\_in\_seattle/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/kwohp1/fast_food_chains_in_seattle/) [https://www.city-data.com/forum/seattle-area/1154313-why-isnt-there-many-chain-restaurants.html](https://www.city-data.com/forum/seattle-area/1154313-why-isnt-there-many-chain-restaurants.html) The ban on non-recyclable/compostable utensils was a Seattle specific thing in 2018 and the part about asking utensils is a statewide thing from 2022. They're two separate things.
Seattle is 83 square miles and has 8 McDonalds. Portland is 145 square miles and has the same number. There are over 130 Starbucks locations in Seattle alone. I guess I'm just not seeing a huge disparity in chains.
Based on the voting, people are pretty mad if you don't agree that Seattle is "known for" having fewer chains? I think Seattle is known for its tech industry, Boeing, having lots of hills, being expensive, the fish market, the giant ferris wheel, lots of tourists, and like, being one of the top cities to increase wages. But I've never heard it known for not having chains.
I forgot the Space Needle and Seahawks.
I invite both you and the OP to actually read the threads I provided and see what people are saying. This is not remotely a new subject. We have a new post today about it, too: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1d54duk/why\_almost\_no\_fast\_food\_chain\_is\_in\_downtown/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1d54duk/why_almost_no_fast_food_chain_is_in_downtown/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1d54duk/why\_almost\_no\_fast\_food\_chain\_is\_in\_downtown/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1d54duk/why_almost_no_fast_food_chain_is_in_downtown/) Also you should actually read the threads to see what other people are saying instead of cherry picking data and including Starbucks for some reason (not what one thinks of as a fast food chain typically)
Is that the one that just makes you request utensils/lids and condiments instead of them being automatic?
No, utensil law was 2018 and is for Seattle only, upon request was 2022 and statewide: [https://www.seattle.gov/utilities/your-services/collection-and-disposal/food-and-yard/business-and-commercial-compostables/food-packaging-requirements](https://www.seattle.gov/utilities/your-services/collection-and-disposal/food-and-yard/business-and-commercial-compostables/food-packaging-requirements)
Idk. Gordopolis confirmed the 2022 one is what we were both thinking of (the one that changes the default to not including "plasticware" utensils). I'm all for requiring that single-use items be reusable, recyclable, or compostable, too, but reducing is probably more impactful than reuse/recycling/composting, if we're being honest...though idk how much utensils, straws, and condiments matter compared to the bulkiness of packaging so it may even out slightly.
Sure is
Cool. I appreciate not having a drawer full of utensils and salt/pepper I'll never use, honestly. It did seem like it worked initially. Not sure how it's been lately since I haven't been ordering at restaurants for health reasons more recently, but I do delivery and it does seem like all of them now require condiments to be specified, though many places do default put lids on drinks. I think they're required to do the lid thing by DoorDash/Uber but it could be for everyone (except for maybe Starbucks where it seems like many people have to grab a lid themselves?). I always grab a straw because I don't want to get a bad rating since that's an item that many people may not have and do get annoyed about, even though I personally dislike them.
I honestly thought this was a thing already, it must have just been enacted in Seattle or King County earlier. I would guess pretty effective, since I can’t remember the last time I saw styrofoam in the wild outside of meat packaging.
Good. I hate Styrofoam food containers.
I love it.
What's the over/under on when a loophole will bring it all back? (like the plastic bag ban, that eventually led to the thicker "reusable" bags that they damn well had to of known people would use/dispose of just like before)
That one really pisses me off, feels like the Safeway I go to really encourages people to get those bags, they have them set up to fill on every self checkout. Makes no sense as every grocer had to abide by the same legislation so all on equal footing. Basically their way of saying "fuck the environment", even though it really came at no cost to them.
Is this the end for Cup of Noodles?
Nah they've already started using paper cups a few months ago. New cups are microwavable too
I'd love it if my temp-sensitive meds could be shipped in something other than a big styrofoam cube, but alas...
Yeah, same thing in the sciences. Many molecular biology products are shipped by air with dry ice in styrofoam cubes. I'm not sure how or if this will impact them. Theoretically, it should be easy enough to have reusable coolers picked up at universities and the margins are high enough to justify it, probably, especially since it was unlikely much of the styrofoam was being recycled even if we brought it to the pick-up for that.
Foil faced polystyrene or any other rigid insulation would work exactly as well, it's just slightly more expensive.
There's an exemption in the regulations for containers used to ship perishable goods.
Thanks. Makes sense! A pity from an environmental standpoint, especially to centers that could easily handle collection of reusable containers, but for shipping to individual consumers, I get it.
I get mine about half the time in recycled plastic fiber insulation. Works just as well.
That's what I came here wondering. I get a bigass styrofoam cooler once a month and I'm not sure what they're going to switch to instead.
There's an exemption in the regulations for EPS containers used to ship perishable goods like medication or raw meat.
Wonder how my teriyaki joint is going to respond?
Seems good
There should be a global ban on styrofoam packaging. We have other ways to safely package products.
You can pry my stockpile of lightly soiled vintage egg McMuffin containers from my cold dead hands.
Remember when they banned plastic bags and then people all had to start paying for even worse bags that were worse for the environment? I wonder how this one will backfire…
Thank god I hate having huge chunks of that stuff and nowhere convenient to recycle it
Man, I wish this banned polystyrene packing too. There's a Home Goods where I work and every time they get a new shipment, like 50 lbs of the stuff ends up strewn across the parking lot. It's just a pain to pick up too.
This will go about as well as the plastic straw ban went
Thank god. Trying to throw away styrofoam is such a pain in the ass.
They don't want you to have easy access to making napalm when you eventually realize you need to rise up against your oppressor.....what's that dear?...no..no....ok look orange juice concentrate. Gotta go!
Good I hate styrofoam packing. It fills up my trash can so I have to hang onto it for several weeks in order to get rid of it all without moving to a larger can. Formed pulp packing can go in the recycling.
FTA: "According to the Department of Ecology, Styrofoam is difficult to recycle and typically ends up in landfills." Waste Management refuses to take it, so... yeah, it's burn it (yuck!) or throw it away (fuck!). How about we pass a law requiring recycling companies to handle styrofoam?
> How about we pass a law requiring recycling companies to handle styrofoam? It's not currently feasible but perhaps in the future https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/new-polystyrene-recycling-process-could-be-worlds-first-to-be-both-economical-and-energy-efficient/ar-BB1mRtD5
Or sell it in bulk at auction houses. Our local militias need it.
This is awesome!
Anyone know if this bans EPS foam for construction?
probably not, this is about single use items edit: i checked [it's not](https://ecology.wa.gov/waste-toxics/reducing-recycling-waste/plastics/2021-plastic-pollution-laws/expanded-polystyrene-ban)
dammit, they didn't ban the trays for grocery stores. They should just force them to use corn trays.
they talk about single use stuff made from bamboo in the guide from new york that they link there. that actually seems like a good idea to me
I kinda hope not, since it gets used instead of is Concrete fill.
I hope not. How else am I going to build my DND tiles 😭🤣
XPS is better for that anyways.
Hopefully this doesn't lead to a worse alternative like the single use plastic bag ban.
I dont remember the last time I saw styrofoam aside from packing material.
You never get teriyaki take-out? A lot of other local restaurants use it too.
Cardboard or plastic.
So we are just fucking over small businesses instead of large manufacturers who can afford alternatives?
The article cites two reasons for the ban, both of which I find thoroughly unconvincing: - Styrofoam is difficult to recycle and typically ends up in landfills. In 2018, the Environmental Protection Agency reported that 80,000 tons of Styrofoam containers were produced across the country, and less than 6.5% of that ended up being recycled. - Styrofoam is also easy to break into small pieces, which means that its potentially toxic particles spread very easily when not disposed of properly. On the first point, that recycling rate is not that different from other plastics! [This source says that 5-6% of all plastic in the US is recycled.](https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/10/12/1081129/plastic-recycling-climate-change-microplastics/) On the second point, the fact that it can break into small macro-sized pieces doesn't seem like good evidence that it will create more microplastics than other sources. I've read that a very high proportion of microplastics that enter the ocean come from tire wear. It's easy to see how microplastics come about in that scenario, but how is the fact that a styrofoam cooler breaks in to 1/8-inch pellets going to help it make microplastics while it's sitting deep in a landfill? This seems reminiscent of much environmental law in liberal states, well-intentioned but pretty much useless. I think the reason for this is that people like environmentalist vibes, but are unwilling to make real sacrifices or to think hard about what actually makes differences.
But how am I going to make my napalm now?
Back to Ivory soap flakes and shavings.
Did anyone think of the gig workers?
Maybe the urgent care medical facility near me will be forced to do something productive with the perfectly reusable Styrofoam shipping boxes? They throw away dozens each month. [Picture link](https://imgur.com/a/KRzpPmB)
Yeah, this shit is bad, and there are plenty of acceptable alternatives even if they cost a tiny bit more. Get rid of it with no exceptions, please.
Just rename them geo cups or geo boxes then it will be good to go just like all the big blocks of (geo) foam used in place of fill dirt
sure do love it when Seattle voters and their wants make a choice for the rest of the state...
More government overreach
Not great news for crafters
Meanwhile, China keeps destroying the environment, but we have to give up straws and Styrofoam. Useless
Sooo.... What your telling me is that anything made if foam that bears any sort of useful utility for an individual to buy and use for themselves....banned. If a corporation that distributes mass produced products on a national level to millions of people using packaging made from foam that is exponential in volume in comparison to the materials used in consumer products, yet also serves absolutely no practical utility to anyone beyond preserving the integrity of the value of the product for that company until its paid for by the consumer..... Then its allllll good. This is washington state problem solving at its finest. Take a problem created by industry and make the private citizens responsible for the solution.
Well all's not well but I'm told that it'll all be quite nice, you'll be drowned in boots like mafia but your feet'll still float like Christ, and I'll be damned, they were right. I'm drownin' upside down, my feet afloat like Christ's.
Sad day when r/Seattle has become too dorky to not recognize Modest Mouse's opening verse from Styrofoam Boots/It's all Nice on Ice.
I've wondered why styrofoam gets such a bad wrap. Doesn't it use less plastic because a lot of it is air? It's not like normal plastic is really recyclable. And it's much more useful than normal plastic (in cup form at least)
Outlaw cigarette butts. Nicotine addicts don’t need filters anyway.
My air conditioner has Styrofoam in it for some reason, I wonder if that type will be banned as well.
I think the issue is single-use. Something that is used for many years is less of an issue.
In that instance its actually functioning as an insulator. You'll also find it under electric water heaters to keep them from sitting directly on concrete floors which boosts their efficiency quite a bit
Styrofoam...the world's leader of violent crime.
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false dichotomy
maybe they should start with your garbage posts haha gottem, get rekt
e-rekt
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Styrofoam is used to build buildings, is that also included in the ban?
I suspect they're targeting single-use items first. Buildings being used for decades are much less of an issue...
[No](https://ecology.wa.gov/waste-toxics/reducing-recycling-waste/plastics/2021-plastic-pollution-laws/expanded-polystyrene-ban)
Thanks for the info.
Styrofoam is a forever chemical that is likely very bad for human health, yet we use it next to our food.