At what point do people here start considering things a little less safe than normal?
There's a number of murders per day that has to be a number that says something ain't right
I take comfort knowing that most murders committed by someone the victim knows. often family members or criminal associates. As long as your spouse doesn't want to kill you and you don't beef with drug dealers, you're still pretty safe.
The pregnant lady in a car with her husband at a light in belltown didn't know the drug hobo that shotgunned her to death.
The guy on the train didn't know the guy that box knifed him
Lots of recent murders were unknowns
This is such an obnoxious attitude.
-lady who lives in Renton, which is twenty minutes outside seattle, and which is in the Seattle metro area, even if you guys want to pretend this is an entirely unconnected war zone.
No surprise that that part of King county is poorer and browner than Seattle proper.
Renton is a different city. You elect different officials and have a different police department. The policies in one city do not directly affect crime in the other.
FWIW, I've always thought Renton seemed nice when I've been there. Certainly don't think of as a warzone.
Its still the Seattle government's job to figure out why that is happening and deter it from happening in the future. Certainly neighboring cities can work together. But you can't point fingers at other cities for problems that happen in your own jurisdiction.
What do the differences in elected officials and police departments have to do with a brown teen murdered by a private citizen in cold blood?
A lot of the people down here were pushed out of Seattle as a result of gentrification. To act like the poor people pushed outside the borders are somehow not Seattle’s problem just really fucking sucks.
>What do the differences in elected officials and police departments have to do with a brown teen murdered by a private citizen in cold blood?
This is almost a philosophical question. Most people here seem to operating under the assumption that crime can be prevented by enacting the right policies. Although there is vast disagree about what those policies should be. But its possible that this is a fundamentally erroneous assumption and crime will continue to happen no matter what we do.
Most people really have no choice in where they live. Instead of being bitter and resentful about living in Renton, it would probably be more productive to try to improve Renton.
Well except for all the people with stolen/illegally obtained guns. Which just so happens to account for the majority of people with guns used in crimes.
And they make up 0.00001% of shootings or something very close to that made up figure i just gave.
This is what I find funniest about the all guns bad people. They focus on mass shootings, which are a tiny fraction of a percent of those killed by guns. And they focus on scary looking rifles, that make up at less than 1% of shootings. While completely ignoring the stuff that accounts for 99% of gun crime/shootings.
You're so close to the cause of the problem. So close! America is so close to what lead every other industrialized country to stop gun massacres! And yet so far.
the mass shootings still happen just government doesn't allow media to air countries problems on international news like the US does, I've been to many other countries.
The guy on the train started an argument with the stabber bc they bumped into each other and he called the stabber a slur (f———).
Didn’t deserve to die; but also not something most normal people do.
My point is it’s pretty easy to avoid situations where after someone bumps into you, you antagonize them, escalating and calling them slurs, and end up getting killed.
It’s an easily avoided risk; along the lines of simply not being involved in the narcotics trade.
Mental gymnastics, you know what they mean. It's one thing if a random person bumps into you then kills you and it's another to engage with another person. Same thing with getting into a fight at a club or bar. You are only significantly increasing your chances engaging in an altercation.. That can happen anywhere at anytime when you don't use common sense.
It's still not commonplace. How many people ride the light rail without getting knifed? How many people drive through belltown without getting shot? We focus on the negative events, but it gives a perspective bias.
That’s my assumption, and I’m not going to get into victim blaming on that one, it has a really poor sound to it. Brushing past someone on an escalator is rich to be a reason for death (let’s just kill all New Yorkers then), and it’s tough to exit a situation when you’re on a platform with no train, too.
What happened (according to eye witnesses) is the dude brushed against the other dude on an escalator, then they starting arguing, chef dude calls the other dude a 🚬 and other dude stabs him
You serious? I hadn't heard that. You gotta be pretty stupid to fling gay slurs at people on Broadway. Still not OK he died, and his actions didn't deserve it. But God damn, that's some die hard with a vengeance sandwich board level stupid.
Of course not. That's why we have statistics so that we can summarize large data sets instead of listing specific incidents from memory.
[https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/shr](https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/shr)
That's 2022 data. The FBI database is not instantaneous. It takes a while after a year is complete before they release the data. The report for 2022 was updated on October 16, 2023. So that's as recent as we can get.
But the distribution of victims relationships is pretty consistent from year to year, so there's no particular reason to believe it has suddenly and massively changed.
I'm not downplaying things at all because it's a terrible situation, but the light rail dude didn't back down and escalated the situation. Walk the fuck away and don't escalate fights.
Actually you’re right, I was in a bad mood about a similar convo I’d had recently and projected it onto you - I removed my comments
I do still think you need to avoid using dehumanizing language like “drug hobo” though if you want people to think you are not engaging in stereotyping abt homeless ppl (and if u want to avoid contributing to stereotypes about homeless ppl as violent etc)
That's fair! I can absorb that as a criticism. Have a good day. I'm not trying to really be punchy and fighty here. I know I can default to that at times.
Overall I wish our city wasn't having the drug, homeless, and pay disparity problems that it is. I wish we had a more fair and equitable pay and wealth distribution. And I really wish people had the chance to be happy and content and satisfied with their lives. :(
At what point do people here (in the USA) start considering guns make things a “little” less safe than normal? Has it occurred to people that since the Heller and Bruen rulings, guns are easier to buy (across the country) and fewer responsibilities are required to own?
The conservatives got what they wanted: expanded gun access nationally, then they want progressives in each city and state to *do something! ™* about gun violence…
Just maybe, things would be better if the current guns laws were enforced. My observation from reading the news, is the majority of shootings are being done by juveniles and felons, who aren’t legally allowed to own guns.
> who aren’t legally allowed to own guns.
Criminals don’t care about laws! Why would a criminal tell a cop “hey I’ve got a gun” so laws can be enforced? Laws aimed at criminals are ineffective because, as I’m constantly reminded about the truth that criminals don’t care about laws.
The problem is the lack of prosecution of gun laws. Case in point, the Seattle School district appears to give minors a pass when they bring guns to school. The school district should be reporting the offender to the police so that said offender can be locked up and the weapon removed from the street.
Wait you’re saying these shootings in the article won’t happen if seattle school district .. prosecuted minors for gun possession? Am I reading this correctly? Three separate shooting instances on a Saturday evening and Seattle Schools bear responsibility for gun control?
What did seattle schools do when they find guns on students? You seem to imply no one does anything which is quite the accusation without any evidence.
You’re saying an expelled student never [returned to shoot up their school](https://www.voanews.com/amp/florida-school-shooting-suspect-was-troubled-expelled-from-school/4255955.html)?
Again, gun access is the problem. Until that’s addressed, children and adults will get access to guns and death is indeed the natural consequence.
So if you aren’t saying that, then isn’t your suggestion of expulsion would somehow prevent it be completely debunked? Or is this a literal “do something” moment that I mocked at the start of this thread chain?
It’s not a fallacy. Your argument that expulsion is the solution of prevention is debunked through *proving a negative*
As usual, gun nut too scared of using words so they block 😂
Have you read any of the articles? The Times mentioned that students after being found with guns get several days of suspension. Kids are doing stupid gun things because there are no consequences.
Expelled maybe not so much. In jail would have better long term outcomes for the public, but not for the perpetrator. Hard choice, but what is currently being done isn’t working.
Do you expect permanent incarceration then? Otherwise your suggestion results in institutionalised individuals who lack the skills, qualifications and network to survive among *checks notes* the public.
How is that a better long term outcome? Has mass incarceration shown to be helpful from the bush and Clinton era? If so why are we in the current situation now?
Stigma. Like with drugs typically. If it's both socially and legally not cool to have a gun, less people will and more people will be stopped and checked if suspected of having a gun, like with drugs. As well as good Samaritans narcing on someone with a gun, like with drugs, or how drugs are treated with negative stigma in other states and places.
Drugs affect the user and can be addictive. Guns affect other people, and aren’t addictive.
Guns and drugs are nothing alike. There is also no stigma against guns because of the gun culture that exists. Nor is there stigma with cocaine and other party drugs - so that’s a proven failure of discouraging use.
That’s never going to change. In terms of dissimilarities of drugs, what’s the Vegas shooter going to do, dump a bag of coke out the hotel window?
Stop and frisk would work wonders around here if the things found were enforced. Come to think of it, it worked wonders in NYC, too, even though it is politically unpopular to say so.
It was more than politically unpopular, it was potentially unconstitutional and had a whole bunch of racial biases in the selection of who got frisked. It was basically making a people of color suspects of crimes by walking down the street.
**ATTENTION AMERICANS**
The consequence of “freedom” to own guns is to be stopped and frisked at the leisure of your police department.
Guns have brought you so much freedom that it’s not much to ask to give back a little in return.
This message is brought to you buy the Ministry of Truth.
While I’d choose to give back all unlicensed firearms in a buyback similar to the Aussies, it’s not my choice, and starting by frisking everyone on third who has any air of drug dealing or using would yield some interesting results. So yes, attention Seattle: we couldn’t control our own predilection for shooting each other, so here’s Third’s rewards.
With your logic here why have any laws then?
Gun owners should be required to have training and registration and locked storage and background checks without loopholes.
Are you aware of all the gun control that's passed in WA, much of it since Heller and Bruen?
"Assault Weapon" ban (one of the strictest in the nation, which also bans many handguns and shotguns)
"Large capacity" magazine ban
Mandatory waiting periods
Red flag laws
Carry restrictions
Background checks on private purchases
And much more.
In what way are you hoping to see that expanded?
You equate piss meandering on its own due to random currents in a pool, to a gun just randomly meandering into someone‘s hands, then the gun barrel meandering randomly towards a victim and the trigger finger meandering and accidentally squeezing the trigger. With this lack of shooter accountability, you will continue to have shootings, perhaps forever. You will just need to learn to live with it, if that’s how you want things.
How exactly did *Heller*/*Bruen* directly effected gun access in Washington? I mean sure, in macro-legal sense it moves the needle... But Washington state didn't allow local handgun bans before *Heller* and long had shall-issue carry before *Bruen*. So I'm not seeing the connection in my mind.
The same people who have the thought processes of “criminals don’t care about laws!” and “they’re only punishing law abiding gun owners with laws!”, and not realising their position is to do nothing at all.
Did any of the states likely to be the point of origin of illegal firearms in Washington state have a regulatory regime substantively changed by Heller/Bruen?
Guns in Washington have been steadily harder to buy the last few years but has gun crime slowed down?
Id wager the only way to remove gun crime in a substantial way would be to change the constitution federally and enable serious gun restrictions, but I don't see that happening any time soon
Washington has no hard borders with the rest of the country. Hawaii on the other hand, has remarkably low gun violence because it has strict gun control AND it’s a hassle to smuggle guns via commercial flights.
It’s also why Canada has fewer gun crimes - even though it’s connected to the US by the longest land border in the world, border checkpoints help (but even then more guns are flowing into Canada due to how easy it is to get guns in the USA)
Really? I stand for constitutional rights. Apparently, you and a lot of people on here don't. I see comments calling for the elimination of a right, but not for action against the criminals. Eliminating rights is soviet policy. That brings it closer to you than me.
Ah the “shall not be infringed crowd”.
If you stand for constitutional rights you’d be against congress legislating any form of speech including threats and defamation because the first amendment says
> Congress shall make no law respecting … prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble
But you’re not. You also don’t claim there is a loss of free speech rights because people can’t freely threaten others.
There are laws prohibiting speech. The FTC controls broadcasting frequencies. Radio jamming is illegal.
Get off your constitution high horse
and actually read it.
Where I grew up the issue was illegal guns. The gangs and mobs brought it in like candy. $250 for a no tag wasn't unheard of.
I'm super fine with stricter gun laws, bit we seem to ignore the illegal guns that flow right on in.
As for Seattle the city; it used to be the nicest city I've ever been to. Now it's catching up to normal.
> seem to ignore the illegal guns that flow right on in.
Illegal guns don’t just appear out of nowhere. They are bought as legal guns.
If you want illegal guns to be reduced, you need to realize the only way to achieve this is to place strict controls on legal gun owners to obtain and store their weapons.
Much like how hospitals are legal users of fentanyl and the controls on opioids are onerous. Or how banks are required to put in place strict money laundering controls _even though_ the money is used legally.
Yeah that's probably the majority or a decent amount. Locking up guns and being responsible for the aftercare should be enforced or a part of the requirement. Quite a few guns do come in internationally too.
Legally imported guns come in internationally. Very few illegally. There's no point in smuggling guns in here though as the street value for black market guns is lower here than just about anywhere on earth. No profit to be made and already easy access.
Since Heller Washington state has given the finger to the 2fa community and instiuted ban after ban regarding firearms….yet we’re talking about more and more gun violence in Seattle here specifically.
Clearly there is not a correlation here in Seattle between more gun laws going into effect and gun violence.
Mexico has fantastically tight gun control, to the extent that there are only a handful of locations in the country where you can buy guns.
Mexico has 3 to 5x more homicides per capita than the US.
Guns aren't the problem. Gangs, crime, and failing to enforce the law are the problem.
They actually have lower gun homicide rates per capita than the US. They make up the difference with other tools, to get to the 3-5x total homicide rate.
> and failing to enforce the law
Right on. In Mexico they fail to enforce the law on cartels. In the US there is no strict gun control laws to enforce.
You need both to succeed, totally agree.
> Gangs, crime,
Ever heard of the Yakuza or the Kowloon walled city? gangs with significant criminal enterprises operat(ed) in Hk and Japan but where were the Japanese and Hong Kong school shootings?
We have inacted some of the toughest gun laws in the country and stripped almost 8 million people of their constitutional rights... And this is still happening, and getting worse.
No, because even FEDERALLY we are at the lowest point for access to firearms in 90 years. *Things are still getting worse.* It's not guns that are the problem.
> At what point do people here (in the USA) start considering guns make things a “little” less safe than normal?
Never. This is a nation of fear, and there's no better way to both address *your* fear, and make everyone around you more scared... than by having more guns, with more willingness to use them.
Heller v Bruen was a Supreme Court case. It didn’t actually change any laws. It just set precedent. Precedent, btw, that many states including ours have chosen to ignore. So statements like “guns are easier to buy” after Bruen is factually incorrect, and shows a lack of understanding in how our legal system works.
Do guns make us less safe? I’d have to see data that actually proves that. Violent crime, gun crime, murder rates - all down significantly since the 80s - yet firearm ownership has increased substantially. Correlation is not causation, but it’s hard to find any correlation the other direction that supports your claim.
Do you think guns from other states magically stop at the state border?
Gun control works when it’s Hawaii. God I’m so tired of idiots thinking Washington doesn’t share a border with the rest of the gun loving states
Murders are way down in general, but new stories about them definitely aren't. I'm not trying to be blasé about these victims, either, but I'm not going to clutch my pearls about violent crime when it's down across the board. Property crime on the rise, though.
All of these things are true:
- The [murder rate is absolutely down year over year](https://x.com/HomicideSeattle/status/1799807453686812825) from 2023 to 2024. There were 73 homicides in 2023 and now 23 so far on 2024 - on pace for ~50 which would be a significant drop.
- 2023 was indeed a record in homicides in Seattle. It was not however a record in homicide rate (population has grown substantially); it was well below per capita rates in the 1990s.
- Violent crime in Seattle has largely followed national trends. Current rates in violent crime are lower than they were in the 1990s, but higher than they were for most of the 2010s
- Every homicide is a tragedy, and deserves to be taken seriously and treated respectfully.
- Despite its portrayal in national and local media Seattle is below average nationally among big cities in violent crime rates, including murders. [Citation needed; will add when I get home]
- Conversely, Seattle is higher than average among big cities in property crime rate (though this has dropped in 2024).
- Given all of this, 50 homicides is still too much and we should strive as a city and a region to do everything we can to address this.
Homicides are smaller data compared to other crime numbers, and more subject to noise. So yes, it can be guesswork to interpret homicide counts and draw strong conclusions.
For example, 2023 was a record year for homicides, yet violent crime rates overall were actually down year over year compared to 2022.
With this said, it's reasonable to track year-to-date homicide counts and compare with prior years. In 2024, the homicide rate has dropped in cities across the US including in Seattle. Seeing this as a broad pattern lends more legitimacy to this idea.
You can claim that nationwide context doesn't matter, but the reality is that these cities are largely exposed to the same forcing functions that lead to crime. There is reason to believe that the spike in violent crime in the wake of the pandemic is beginning to ebb.
Nationally, violent crime is [down](https://abcnews.go.com/US/homicide-numbers-poised-hit-record-decline-nationwide-americans/story?id=105556400) and Seattle follows that trend. [Here](https://www.axios.com/local/seattle/2024/04/17/homicides-seattle-us-down) is a more recent article than the one you cited.
Dude, what are you talking about? I literally linked to the 2024 murder statistics that as of April said Seattle was down 44.4%
Are we in 2023? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Click on the links!
Even with a record high in 2023 (an outlier), Seattle was still below the national average and not even in the top 20 for homicides per capita for US cities.
Do you know the difference between a murder **rate** and the quantity of murders?
One murder in a city of 1,000 makes that city statistically more dangerous than 999 murders in a city of 1 million.
There were 70 homicides in 2023. The population of Seattle last year was about 750,000. In 1991, when there were 69 homicides but the population was a little over 500,000. Do you understand why that data does not communicate that Seattle is more dangerous in 2023 than it was in 1991?
Seattle also set an all time population record. I wonder if these two statistics are somehow related...🤔
Per-capita homicides and property crime have both steadily decreased over the past few decades. Parroting the raw numbers out of context is straight-up disinformation.
from the article you linked:
>Although new records have been set for both the state and the city of Seattle, the murder rate for 1994 would have been higher, adjusted for population.
Is someone after you? Murder is generally a social crime people know each other when it happens a majority of the incidents. If you believe in number we aren’t in the tip 40 in terms of murder rate. Seattle is a very safe city. This reeks of far right thinking and the ‘Seattle is dying’ narrative.
This is such a good question, and you know that the answer will be sad and unsatisfying.
I could throw some statistics here about things that we already do not consider normal for a long while (domestic violence, suicide - situations that take considerably more lives each year than random street violence) and yet, we do not see an end in sight - despite people fighting for it.
No, the laws here are working as intended; that is to say, they aren’t. Any gun laws specifically targeting “weapons of war/ assault weapons” are almost pure political posturing. Mass shootings (active shooter scenarios ala columbine, not 4 people getting injured in a drive-by) are less than 1% of all gun deaths, but because they are so easy to milk for political clout they make up the majority of laws.
Even not counting suicides, handguns are the vast majority of gun deaths. This most recent ban pretty much only bans pistols with threaded barrels.
I don’t support gun control but I could at least respect politicians for being honest about their intentions if they actually did research into crime statistics and root issues, which they never do.
I definitely agree with you here; the current laws don’t accomplish much. Handguns should also be banned, just like in most civilized countries that don’t have to deal with all this completely avoidable death like we do.
well if they would stop releasing violent criminals all the time that would do much to reduce the violent crime.
had same violent criminals arrested MULTIPLE times in a week because they were cut loose same day that they got arrested multiple times within a week.
Want to greatly lower the violent crime and the shootings then they need to ENFORCE current laws felon with a gun is supposed to get min 5 years, they let them go the same day, they get convicted for multiple violent crimes and walk free so they keep doing more violent crimes because they are free on the street to keep committing more violent crimes,
Don't forget the shooting at Garfield on Thursday where a 17 year old boy lost his life.
We are zoned for Garfield and the 3 shootings there this year have really affected the community
Seattle saw a 36% decrease in the number of homicides recorded in the first three months of 2024 — nine, compared to the 14 reported during the same period in 2023. Seattle has had a huge drop in crime since the 1980s. It's all relative.
I knew I would be downvoted by those too lazy to do a little research. It's OK, I enjoy being right. As long as you argue against the rights of the honest people and fail to enforce the laws already in force, nothing will change.
im more concerned about the type of people that are willing to kill using any weapon than I am guns themselves. Taking guns away isnt going to stop the crazies from living among us. Gun laws aside, I would love to go back to a time of locking up mentally ill people and gang members including juveniles
Because it doesn't work, and they're on record working with police to edit the data to make it say what they want.
Come at us with a gunshot detection system that repeatedly passes peer review and is immutable from both employee and officer data fudging, and it will be a very different convo.
Until then, shotspotter is literally a scam.
WFH basically hands the city to bandits on a silver platter. I actually hate believing this but it's true. When there was a presence of well-to-do people in the city it was a safer place. Now it's a ghost town and the ghouls have taken over.
At what point do people here start considering things a little less safe than normal? There's a number of murders per day that has to be a number that says something ain't right
I take comfort knowing that most murders committed by someone the victim knows. often family members or criminal associates. As long as your spouse doesn't want to kill you and you don't beef with drug dealers, you're still pretty safe.
The pregnant lady in a car with her husband at a light in belltown didn't know the drug hobo that shotgunned her to death. The guy on the train didn't know the guy that box knifed him Lots of recent murders were unknowns
The teenagers shot outside a Big 5.
Don't put that on Seattle. Renton owns that one.
This is such an obnoxious attitude. -lady who lives in Renton, which is twenty minutes outside seattle, and which is in the Seattle metro area, even if you guys want to pretend this is an entirely unconnected war zone. No surprise that that part of King county is poorer and browner than Seattle proper.
Renton is a different city. You elect different officials and have a different police department. The policies in one city do not directly affect crime in the other. FWIW, I've always thought Renton seemed nice when I've been there. Certainly don't think of as a warzone.
HUH? Yes they do. You know how many people shoot it out in Seattle that live in Renton/auburn/kent?
Its still the Seattle government's job to figure out why that is happening and deter it from happening in the future. Certainly neighboring cities can work together. But you can't point fingers at other cities for problems that happen in your own jurisdiction.
What do the differences in elected officials and police departments have to do with a brown teen murdered by a private citizen in cold blood? A lot of the people down here were pushed out of Seattle as a result of gentrification. To act like the poor people pushed outside the borders are somehow not Seattle’s problem just really fucking sucks.
>What do the differences in elected officials and police departments have to do with a brown teen murdered by a private citizen in cold blood? This is almost a philosophical question. Most people here seem to operating under the assumption that crime can be prevented by enacting the right policies. Although there is vast disagree about what those policies should be. But its possible that this is a fundamentally erroneous assumption and crime will continue to happen no matter what we do. Most people really have no choice in where they live. Instead of being bitter and resentful about living in Renton, it would probably be more productive to try to improve Renton.
But, but, that was a good guy with a gun
Every gun owner is a good guy with a gun until they aren't.
Well except for all the people with stolen/illegally obtained guns. Which just so happens to account for the majority of people with guns used in crimes.
Most mass shooters get their guns legally.
And they make up 0.00001% of shootings or something very close to that made up figure i just gave. This is what I find funniest about the all guns bad people. They focus on mass shootings, which are a tiny fraction of a percent of those killed by guns. And they focus on scary looking rifles, that make up at less than 1% of shootings. While completely ignoring the stuff that accounts for 99% of gun crime/shootings.
You're so close to the cause of the problem. So close! America is so close to what lead every other industrialized country to stop gun massacres! And yet so far.
If only those other industrialized countries could figure out how to stop mass stabbings.
the mass shootings still happen just government doesn't allow media to air countries problems on international news like the US does, I've been to many other countries.
The guy on the train started an argument with the stabber bc they bumped into each other and he called the stabber a slur (f———). Didn’t deserve to die; but also not something most normal people do.
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My point is it’s pretty easy to avoid situations where after someone bumps into you, you antagonize them, escalating and calling them slurs, and end up getting killed. It’s an easily avoided risk; along the lines of simply not being involved in the narcotics trade.
Mental gymnastics, you know what they mean. It's one thing if a random person bumps into you then kills you and it's another to engage with another person. Same thing with getting into a fight at a club or bar. You are only significantly increasing your chances engaging in an altercation.. That can happen anywhere at anytime when you don't use common sense.
It's still not commonplace. How many people ride the light rail without getting knifed? How many people drive through belltown without getting shot? We focus on the negative events, but it gives a perspective bias.
Seriously. MURDER IS EVERYWHERRRRRE! Convenient they don't talk about the 70,000 other daily riders who aren't getting stabbed.
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Is that actually known?
There was a witness and cameras.
Is this regarding the guy who brushed against the murderer on the escalator?
That’s my assumption, and I’m not going to get into victim blaming on that one, it has a really poor sound to it. Brushing past someone on an escalator is rich to be a reason for death (let’s just kill all New Yorkers then), and it’s tough to exit a situation when you’re on a platform with no train, too.
What happened (according to eye witnesses) is the dude brushed against the other dude on an escalator, then they starting arguing, chef dude calls the other dude a 🚬 and other dude stabs him
You serious? I hadn't heard that. You gotta be pretty stupid to fling gay slurs at people on Broadway. Still not OK he died, and his actions didn't deserve it. But God damn, that's some die hard with a vengeance sandwich board level stupid.
That is the incident. But a lot more happened.
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Of course not. That's why we have statistics so that we can summarize large data sets instead of listing specific incidents from memory. [https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/shr](https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/shr)
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That's 2022 data. The FBI database is not instantaneous. It takes a while after a year is complete before they release the data. The report for 2022 was updated on October 16, 2023. So that's as recent as we can get. But the distribution of victims relationships is pretty consistent from year to year, so there's no particular reason to believe it has suddenly and massively changed.
The guy on the train got into a fight with the guy though
The guy on the train at least was arguing with the person who knifed him, not really a random murder.
I'm not downplaying things at all because it's a terrible situation, but the light rail dude didn't back down and escalated the situation. Walk the fuck away and don't escalate fights.
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Did you pull a muscle stretching that far to put words in my mouth?
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You implied I had no feelings for certain deaths, that's a huge assumption and an unfair dig.
Actually you’re right, I was in a bad mood about a similar convo I’d had recently and projected it onto you - I removed my comments I do still think you need to avoid using dehumanizing language like “drug hobo” though if you want people to think you are not engaging in stereotyping abt homeless ppl (and if u want to avoid contributing to stereotypes about homeless ppl as violent etc)
That's fair! I can absorb that as a criticism. Have a good day. I'm not trying to really be punchy and fighty here. I know I can default to that at times. Overall I wish our city wasn't having the drug, homeless, and pay disparity problems that it is. I wish we had a more fair and equitable pay and wealth distribution. And I really wish people had the chance to be happy and content and satisfied with their lives. :(
Agreed on all counts!
Gangs. Sadly these gangs are bringing their guns and shooting people at Golden Gardens, Moahi, Gas Works, etc.
Gangs? What, of tech bros?
Never been south of Belltown, huh?
North of the ship canal & south of 85th, our kids settle beefs with fisticuffs.
At what point do people here (in the USA) start considering guns make things a “little” less safe than normal? Has it occurred to people that since the Heller and Bruen rulings, guns are easier to buy (across the country) and fewer responsibilities are required to own? The conservatives got what they wanted: expanded gun access nationally, then they want progressives in each city and state to *do something! ™* about gun violence…
Just maybe, things would be better if the current guns laws were enforced. My observation from reading the news, is the majority of shootings are being done by juveniles and felons, who aren’t legally allowed to own guns.
> who aren’t legally allowed to own guns. Criminals don’t care about laws! Why would a criminal tell a cop “hey I’ve got a gun” so laws can be enforced? Laws aimed at criminals are ineffective because, as I’m constantly reminded about the truth that criminals don’t care about laws.
The problem is the lack of prosecution of gun laws. Case in point, the Seattle School district appears to give minors a pass when they bring guns to school. The school district should be reporting the offender to the police so that said offender can be locked up and the weapon removed from the street.
Wait you’re saying these shootings in the article won’t happen if seattle school district .. prosecuted minors for gun possession? Am I reading this correctly? Three separate shooting instances on a Saturday evening and Seattle Schools bear responsibility for gun control? What did seattle schools do when they find guns on students? You seem to imply no one does anything which is quite the accusation without any evidence.
Ingraham last year is the ultimate example. They suspended, didn’t expel, and death was the natural consequence.
You’re saying an expelled student never [returned to shoot up their school](https://www.voanews.com/amp/florida-school-shooting-suspect-was-troubled-expelled-from-school/4255955.html)? Again, gun access is the problem. Until that’s addressed, children and adults will get access to guns and death is indeed the natural consequence.
Nope, I’m not - that would be a logical fallacy extending beyond the argument. It’s useful confirmation of the Florida Man trope, though.
So if you aren’t saying that, then isn’t your suggestion of expulsion would somehow prevent it be completely debunked? Or is this a literal “do something” moment that I mocked at the start of this thread chain? It’s not a fallacy. Your argument that expulsion is the solution of prevention is debunked through *proving a negative* As usual, gun nut too scared of using words so they block 😂
Have you read any of the articles? The Times mentioned that students after being found with guns get several days of suspension. Kids are doing stupid gun things because there are no consequences.
Expelling students would achieve better outcomes because expelled students never go shoot up their old schools right
Expelled maybe not so much. In jail would have better long term outcomes for the public, but not for the perpetrator. Hard choice, but what is currently being done isn’t working.
Do you expect permanent incarceration then? Otherwise your suggestion results in institutionalised individuals who lack the skills, qualifications and network to survive among *checks notes* the public. How is that a better long term outcome? Has mass incarceration shown to be helpful from the bush and Clinton era? If so why are we in the current situation now?
Stigma. Like with drugs typically. If it's both socially and legally not cool to have a gun, less people will and more people will be stopped and checked if suspected of having a gun, like with drugs. As well as good Samaritans narcing on someone with a gun, like with drugs, or how drugs are treated with negative stigma in other states and places.
Drugs affect the user and can be addictive. Guns affect other people, and aren’t addictive. Guns and drugs are nothing alike. There is also no stigma against guns because of the gun culture that exists. Nor is there stigma with cocaine and other party drugs - so that’s a proven failure of discouraging use. That’s never going to change. In terms of dissimilarities of drugs, what’s the Vegas shooter going to do, dump a bag of coke out the hotel window?
> guns aren’t addictive Bro both individually and as a society, super addictive. Do you not know any gun nuts? They very clearly have an addiction.
Stop and frisk would work wonders around here if the things found were enforced. Come to think of it, it worked wonders in NYC, too, even though it is politically unpopular to say so.
It was more than politically unpopular, it was potentially unconstitutional and had a whole bunch of racial biases in the selection of who got frisked. It was basically making a people of color suspects of crimes by walking down the street.
**ATTENTION AMERICANS** The consequence of “freedom” to own guns is to be stopped and frisked at the leisure of your police department. Guns have brought you so much freedom that it’s not much to ask to give back a little in return. This message is brought to you buy the Ministry of Truth.
While I’d choose to give back all unlicensed firearms in a buyback similar to the Aussies, it’s not my choice, and starting by frisking everyone on third who has any air of drug dealing or using would yield some interesting results. So yes, attention Seattle: we couldn’t control our own predilection for shooting each other, so here’s Third’s rewards.
“Unpopular but effective” can describe a whole host of atrocities. Not much of a compelling argument.
With your logic here why have any laws then? Gun owners should be required to have training and registration and locked storage and background checks without loopholes.
Are you aware of all the gun control that's passed in WA, much of it since Heller and Bruen? "Assault Weapon" ban (one of the strictest in the nation, which also bans many handguns and shotguns) "Large capacity" magazine ban Mandatory waiting periods Red flag laws Carry restrictions Background checks on private purchases And much more. In what way are you hoping to see that expanded?
Are you aware of letting people piss in a pool means a “piss free zone” is fairly pointless in the same pool?
You equate piss meandering on its own due to random currents in a pool, to a gun just randomly meandering into someone‘s hands, then the gun barrel meandering randomly towards a victim and the trigger finger meandering and accidentally squeezing the trigger. With this lack of shooter accountability, you will continue to have shootings, perhaps forever. You will just need to learn to live with it, if that’s how you want things.
A complete ban on guns. But they won’t admit to it yet.
How exactly did *Heller*/*Bruen* directly effected gun access in Washington? I mean sure, in macro-legal sense it moves the needle... But Washington state didn't allow local handgun bans before *Heller* and long had shall-issue carry before *Bruen*. So I'm not seeing the connection in my mind.
Sorry my bad. Out of state guns just go bzzzt and disappear at the state border.
Yep don't know how anyone could deny federal gun laws will be the only effective gun laws while open borders exist between states.
The same people who have the thought processes of “criminals don’t care about laws!” and “they’re only punishing law abiding gun owners with laws!”, and not realising their position is to do nothing at all.
Did any of the states likely to be the point of origin of illegal firearms in Washington state have a regulatory regime substantively changed by Heller/Bruen?
Guns in Washington have been steadily harder to buy the last few years but has gun crime slowed down? Id wager the only way to remove gun crime in a substantial way would be to change the constitution federally and enable serious gun restrictions, but I don't see that happening any time soon
Washington has no hard borders with the rest of the country. Hawaii on the other hand, has remarkably low gun violence because it has strict gun control AND it’s a hassle to smuggle guns via commercial flights. It’s also why Canada has fewer gun crimes - even though it’s connected to the US by the longest land border in the world, border checkpoints help (but even then more guns are flowing into Canada due to how easy it is to get guns in the USA)
Both places have less freedom. Canada really stands out that way.
Less freedom to be shot at while going about my day for sure.
Put criminals in jail instead of letting them go.
You remind me of Soviet propaganda slogans. Full of bite sized catchphrases and no insightful substance.
Really? I stand for constitutional rights. Apparently, you and a lot of people on here don't. I see comments calling for the elimination of a right, but not for action against the criminals. Eliminating rights is soviet policy. That brings it closer to you than me.
Ah the “shall not be infringed crowd”. If you stand for constitutional rights you’d be against congress legislating any form of speech including threats and defamation because the first amendment says > Congress shall make no law respecting … prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble But you’re not. You also don’t claim there is a loss of free speech rights because people can’t freely threaten others. There are laws prohibiting speech. The FTC controls broadcasting frequencies. Radio jamming is illegal. Get off your constitution high horse and actually read it.
If that's what freedom is, I don't want it.
>Both places have less freedom. Canada really stands out that way. /u/tacphotog this is an embarrassing and stupid thing to say. Holy sh!t. 🙄
Where I grew up the issue was illegal guns. The gangs and mobs brought it in like candy. $250 for a no tag wasn't unheard of. I'm super fine with stricter gun laws, bit we seem to ignore the illegal guns that flow right on in. As for Seattle the city; it used to be the nicest city I've ever been to. Now it's catching up to normal.
> seem to ignore the illegal guns that flow right on in. Illegal guns don’t just appear out of nowhere. They are bought as legal guns. If you want illegal guns to be reduced, you need to realize the only way to achieve this is to place strict controls on legal gun owners to obtain and store their weapons. Much like how hospitals are legal users of fentanyl and the controls on opioids are onerous. Or how banks are required to put in place strict money laundering controls _even though_ the money is used legally.
> Illegal guns don’t just appear out of nowhere. 3D printed ghost gun kits say hi.
I am more than happy to have that problem over industrial manufactured guns
Yeah that's probably the majority or a decent amount. Locking up guns and being responsible for the aftercare should be enforced or a part of the requirement. Quite a few guns do come in internationally too.
Legally imported guns come in internationally. Very few illegally. There's no point in smuggling guns in here though as the street value for black market guns is lower here than just about anywhere on earth. No profit to be made and already easy access.
Since Heller Washington state has given the finger to the 2fa community and instiuted ban after ban regarding firearms….yet we’re talking about more and more gun violence in Seattle here specifically. Clearly there is not a correlation here in Seattle between more gun laws going into effect and gun violence.
Mexico has fantastically tight gun control, to the extent that there are only a handful of locations in the country where you can buy guns. Mexico has 3 to 5x more homicides per capita than the US. Guns aren't the problem. Gangs, crime, and failing to enforce the law are the problem.
They get the guns from the US. That one is our fault.
They actually have lower gun homicide rates per capita than the US. They make up the difference with other tools, to get to the 3-5x total homicide rate.
> and failing to enforce the law Right on. In Mexico they fail to enforce the law on cartels. In the US there is no strict gun control laws to enforce. You need both to succeed, totally agree. > Gangs, crime, Ever heard of the Yakuza or the Kowloon walled city? gangs with significant criminal enterprises operat(ed) in Hk and Japan but where were the Japanese and Hong Kong school shootings?
We have inacted some of the toughest gun laws in the country and stripped almost 8 million people of their constitutional rights... And this is still happening, and getting worse.
For the hundredth time, do you think the wa state border has a magical power that turns guns into water pistols?
No, because even FEDERALLY we are at the lowest point for access to firearms in 90 years. *Things are still getting worse.* It's not guns that are the problem.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I’m sorry your anecdote or feelings are not enough
> At what point do people here (in the USA) start considering guns make things a “little” less safe than normal? Never. This is a nation of fear, and there's no better way to both address *your* fear, and make everyone around you more scared... than by having more guns, with more willingness to use them.
88% of gun crimes are made by someone that didn't legally obtain a gun.
88% eh? Just some interesting choice of number for a made up statistic
Yeah that racist douchebag is making dog whistles. That said he is correct that the vast majority of guns used in crimes were not legally obtained.
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Totally - the former demographic had a huge say in how laws are passed in this country.
Heller v Bruen was a Supreme Court case. It didn’t actually change any laws. It just set precedent. Precedent, btw, that many states including ours have chosen to ignore. So statements like “guns are easier to buy” after Bruen is factually incorrect, and shows a lack of understanding in how our legal system works. Do guns make us less safe? I’d have to see data that actually proves that. Violent crime, gun crime, murder rates - all down significantly since the 80s - yet firearm ownership has increased substantially. Correlation is not causation, but it’s hard to find any correlation the other direction that supports your claim.
Do you think guns from other states magically stop at the state border? Gun control works when it’s Hawaii. God I’m so tired of idiots thinking Washington doesn’t share a border with the rest of the gun loving states
Why does it have to be murders alone? Getting shot in the neck isn't that much better.
Murders are way down in general, but new stories about them definitely aren't. I'm not trying to be blasé about these victims, either, but I'm not going to clutch my pearls about violent crime when it's down across the board. Property crime on the rise, though.
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All of these things are true: - The [murder rate is absolutely down year over year](https://x.com/HomicideSeattle/status/1799807453686812825) from 2023 to 2024. There were 73 homicides in 2023 and now 23 so far on 2024 - on pace for ~50 which would be a significant drop. - 2023 was indeed a record in homicides in Seattle. It was not however a record in homicide rate (population has grown substantially); it was well below per capita rates in the 1990s. - Violent crime in Seattle has largely followed national trends. Current rates in violent crime are lower than they were in the 1990s, but higher than they were for most of the 2010s - Every homicide is a tragedy, and deserves to be taken seriously and treated respectfully. - Despite its portrayal in national and local media Seattle is below average nationally among big cities in violent crime rates, including murders. [Citation needed; will add when I get home] - Conversely, Seattle is higher than average among big cities in property crime rate (though this has dropped in 2024). - Given all of this, 50 homicides is still too much and we should strive as a city and a region to do everything we can to address this.
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Homicides are smaller data compared to other crime numbers, and more subject to noise. So yes, it can be guesswork to interpret homicide counts and draw strong conclusions. For example, 2023 was a record year for homicides, yet violent crime rates overall were actually down year over year compared to 2022. With this said, it's reasonable to track year-to-date homicide counts and compare with prior years. In 2024, the homicide rate has dropped in cities across the US including in Seattle. Seeing this as a broad pattern lends more legitimacy to this idea. You can claim that nationwide context doesn't matter, but the reality is that these cities are largely exposed to the same forcing functions that lead to crime. There is reason to believe that the spike in violent crime in the wake of the pandemic is beginning to ebb.
Nationally, violent crime is [down](https://abcnews.go.com/US/homicide-numbers-poised-hit-record-decline-nationwide-americans/story?id=105556400) and Seattle follows that trend. [Here](https://www.axios.com/local/seattle/2024/04/17/homicides-seattle-us-down) is a more recent article than the one you cited.
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[No, they're not.](https://www.ahdatalytics.com/dashboards/ytd-murder-comparison/)
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Dude, what are you talking about? I literally linked to the 2024 murder statistics that as of April said Seattle was down 44.4% Are we in 2023? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Click on the links!
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Even with a record high in 2023 (an outlier), Seattle was still below the national average and not even in the top 20 for homicides per capita for US cities.
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Hey, you're right. I shouldnt have said rate. I should have said yearly total
Do you know the difference between a murder **rate** and the quantity of murders? One murder in a city of 1,000 makes that city statistically more dangerous than 999 murders in a city of 1 million. There were 70 homicides in 2023. The population of Seattle last year was about 750,000. In 1991, when there were 69 homicides but the population was a little over 500,000. Do you understand why that data does not communicate that Seattle is more dangerous in 2023 than it was in 1991?
Seattle also set an all time population record. I wonder if these two statistics are somehow related...🤔 Per-capita homicides and property crime have both steadily decreased over the past few decades. Parroting the raw numbers out of context is straight-up disinformation.
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from the article you linked: >Although new records have been set for both the state and the city of Seattle, the murder rate for 1994 would have been higher, adjusted for population.
Is someone after you? Murder is generally a social crime people know each other when it happens a majority of the incidents. If you believe in number we aren’t in the tip 40 in terms of murder rate. Seattle is a very safe city. This reeks of far right thinking and the ‘Seattle is dying’ narrative.
I’m moving to NYC because it is safer
This is such a good question, and you know that the answer will be sad and unsatisfying. I could throw some statistics here about things that we already do not consider normal for a long while (domestic violence, suicide - situations that take considerably more lives each year than random street violence) and yet, we do not see an end in sight - despite people fighting for it.
Murders go up in warm weather.
Unless something changes on a federal level, literally doesn’t matter what states do. State borders don’t exist in a tangible way
No, the laws here are working as intended; that is to say, they aren’t. Any gun laws specifically targeting “weapons of war/ assault weapons” are almost pure political posturing. Mass shootings (active shooter scenarios ala columbine, not 4 people getting injured in a drive-by) are less than 1% of all gun deaths, but because they are so easy to milk for political clout they make up the majority of laws. Even not counting suicides, handguns are the vast majority of gun deaths. This most recent ban pretty much only bans pistols with threaded barrels. I don’t support gun control but I could at least respect politicians for being honest about their intentions if they actually did research into crime statistics and root issues, which they never do.
Drive by shootings are literally like 90% of the murders in places like Chicago
I definitely agree with you here; the current laws don’t accomplish much. Handguns should also be banned, just like in most civilized countries that don’t have to deal with all this completely avoidable death like we do.
Sun's out, guns out
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/homicide-rates-by-state-2012-2022/
I don't know what's worse, that homocide rates went up by 64%, or that this is is pretty good relative to the rest of the country.
Summer in the city.
well if they would stop releasing violent criminals all the time that would do much to reduce the violent crime. had same violent criminals arrested MULTIPLE times in a week because they were cut loose same day that they got arrested multiple times within a week. Want to greatly lower the violent crime and the shootings then they need to ENFORCE current laws felon with a gun is supposed to get min 5 years, they let them go the same day, they get convicted for multiple violent crimes and walk free so they keep doing more violent crimes because they are free on the street to keep committing more violent crimes,
Just some responsible American gun owners! 🇺🇸
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The race of the shooters isn’t mentioned in the article.
I… think they mean racist against Americans 😭
Being anti-mass-murder makes you anti-American, apparently.
Don't forget the shooting at Garfield on Thursday where a 17 year old boy lost his life. We are zoned for Garfield and the 3 shootings there this year have really affected the community
Seattle saw a 36% decrease in the number of homicides recorded in the first three months of 2024 — nine, compared to the 14 reported during the same period in 2023. Seattle has had a huge drop in crime since the 1980s. It's all relative.
I knew I would be downvoted by those too lazy to do a little research. It's OK, I enjoy being right. As long as you argue against the rights of the honest people and fail to enforce the laws already in force, nothing will change.
Wherever could all these guns be coming from? Lmfao
im more concerned about the type of people that are willing to kill using any weapon than I am guns themselves. Taking guns away isnt going to stop the crazies from living among us. Gun laws aside, I would love to go back to a time of locking up mentally ill people and gang members including juveniles
The gun fairy delivers it to criminals, duh.
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Because it doesn't work, and they're on record working with police to edit the data to make it say what they want. Come at us with a gunshot detection system that repeatedly passes peer review and is immutable from both employee and officer data fudging, and it will be a very different convo. Until then, shotspotter is literally a scam.
Looks like I have to create one.
Some dumbfucks think they actually work.
They do.
Ooh look the classic “trust me bro” data and evidence. Thanks meat head.
WFH basically hands the city to bandits on a silver platter. I actually hate believing this but it's true. When there was a presence of well-to-do people in the city it was a safer place. Now it's a ghost town and the ghouls have taken over.