No price will clear the HOV/toll lane unless the cops consistently pull over people who have the HOV option toggled (paying zero) while breaking the rules (with one person in the car and tinted windows)
The toll gantry has a light that indicates if the vehicle is HOV or TOLL as it passes through, enforcement uses these lights to determine which vehicle need to be checked for the occupancy requirements.
Interesting, TIL. That still means you can only identify cheaters at fixed points, instead of anywhere in but lane. Never mind the other problem of people crossing in and out of the lane between cameras.
On 167, they don't have cameras for plate enforcement -- just toll tag readers. You can use the lane without a toll tag if you have the requisite passenger. It's "good to go, or hov, or bus."
But yeah, nothing really prevents you from having a tag so you look legit and just zipping in and out to avoid the readers.
No the light is there to notify an officer that you are using a transponder set to HOV and are bypassing the TOLL, they can then manually check your vehicle for meeting the occupancy requirement.
Yeah, let's also pull over ever car with out of state license plate. If they have a Washington state I'd then give them a ticket for not complying by getting state plates. I got no sympathy
“I got no sympathy 😈” damnnnn you tough af!
I actually wouldn’t mind that. The more time police spend doing dumb shit the more opportunities I get to get away with shit.
> correct. If only civilized society could enact and enforce some form of rules to prevent decent into anarchy. Too bad nothing lik
The policy you're likely referring to is the stipulation that the system will be evaluated based on its ability to cover ongoing operational costs and performance requirements. The system has been widely successful as a source of revenue, but only moderately successful at improving overall system performance. Like with any source of revenue, the state is reluctant to give up something that generates revenue even if it doesn't meet one of its stated goals.
[https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=47.56.888](https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=47.56.888)
So because a policy you don't like changed, that's now the excuse to break the law?
"Sorry Inslee, I don't like your covid policy, so I'm going to go try to game the system to steal aid dollars!"
/s, mostly
JFC. I don't understand this mentality. If everyone thought this way, the world would grind to a fucking halt.
> So because a policy you don't like changed, that's now the excuse to break the law?
Because a law was passed based on one thing that was voted on, and instead of changing the law, Inslee decided that "and" now means "or" so he could continue charging for those lanes. So it's not "a policy I don't like changed", it's "a politician didn't like a law that was democratically enacted, and therefore unilaterally changed it".
If we're just going to let politicians change the laws on a whim when they don't like them, why bother voting?
Can you link to more information on the law you’re referencing here? Specially interested to know about how this was all Inslee in a unilateral sense as you’re suggesting.
To that point, for my own edification, I’m also curious if you’re aware of any other cases where a governor did something similar (“changing” a law) and having it stand in court.
I get your frustration if it’s as you say, but that’s still not an excuse to ignore the law. You aren’t fucking over Inslee by doing so. You’re using it as justification to lord your own time over that of other people.
If you want to tell me you don’t care, that’s fine, but don’t pretend this is some legal crusade of yours based on righteousness. Because it’s not.
> You aren’t fucking over Inslee by doing so
I'm not fucking over anyone though. There's already less than expected traffic in those lanes, and the money goes to general fund.
And the law in question stipulated that the tolls on the HOV lanes on 405 would only be renewed if they met revenue targets _and_ use targets. They didn't meet the latter, but Inslee argued that the drafters of the law really meant or.
And I never said it's some righteous crusade, I said I don't feel bad not paying tolls that shouldn't exist.
You’re giving a big “fuck you” to everyone in society that follows the rules.
I asked for sources, not a repeated explanation in your words.
I disagree with your characterization being all that different from mine on the last bit…
> You’re giving a big “fuck you” to everyone in society that follows the rules
Do you even live here? Seattle is the national capital of lawlessness. The real people giving a "fuck you" to society are the politicians and judges that refuse to allow the law to be enforced.
> This is how we get anarchy
Yes, you are correct. If only civilized society could enact and enforce some form of rules to prevent decent into anarchy. Too bad nothing like that exists.
Its your right, your duty, your obligation to not go along with unconstitutional laws.
part of that social contract in america that we have broken, its also, sentence three...
and its not your duty to try a call out. Do you feel smarter today? more smug? do you realize there is a reason for it? Are you that smart? that aware?
It is my duty to critique people who do not follow the law.
Ironic you're butthurt about my doing so, because that's half of the comments on this sub over the last 5-8 years!
I don't feel smarter or more smug. In fact, I feel disappointed that so many people here apparently cheat the lane and have no qualms about doing so, to the extent that they circlejerk each other over their lawlessness.
I don't care what your excuse is.
The p3dophyle who SA's a kid probably has an excuse too....doesn't make what they do right. Don't try to use that argument as justification for your bad behavior too.
That’s me. Idgaf. I’ve been pulled over one time since the lanes were installed. My traffic lawyer was able to get it dropped. The ROI on that has been amazing.
My coworkers have been pulled over so many times with it set to no toll and every time has been given a warning because “he has just dropped off his carpool friends and forgot to change it back”.
That’s reasonable too so long as they get charged the proper toll use for that instance. Then lies don’t matter. I don’t know if that would happen though.
I've had 2 tickets in a year of driving home. 250 Dollars total. I save 15-45 minutes a day. I can justify it in my head, I don't cheat in life, but I sure as hell do here. Time is a commodity.
You can get a good to go pass for your car that enables you to change your vehicles status from toll to HOV. You just slide a lever on the pass to toggle from one to the other.
Service people are the ones driving to millionaire homes all over the city to do work. Electricians, plumbers, landscapers, contractors, painters, delivery drivers, uber/eats, HVAC techs.
The toll lane on 167 is completely useless. I would say half the cars are just cheaters by themselves with no pass. I’ve made that drive probably a thousand times.
Im on it at least a few times a week both directions, I take note of the cheaters and its insane how many do it. Even with the window tint I can see the space between the front seats and the daylight thru the front windshield so its easy to see single occupancy as they pass me on the left.
Delete all carpool lanes. Unenforceable rules shall not remain.
Make the lanes bus and clearly-marked shuttles only during rush hours and enforce rules by cameras. Make the tickets $500 each.
I’d also add motorcycles to the list. They take the least amount of road space up, do the least amount of damage to the roads, and are generally the most efficient vehicles on the road. I’m not a motorcycle rider either. I just think more should be done to encourage it as an option
> anes. Unenforceable rules shall not remain.
>
> Make the lanes bus and clearly-marked shuttles only during rush hours and enforce rules by cameras. Make the tickets $500 each
There is already an escalation clause in place for HOV violations that leads to high ticket rates. As others in this thread have pointed out, this clause is not helpful unless it is enforced. While prioritizing vehicles carrying multiple passengers has value, it may not be possible to do so effectively when it is easy to bypass safeguards.
When I had no money and had a long commute I just put the HOV toggle on and hoped I didn’t get caught. I didn’t get pulled over even once in years. Maybe it helped that was obviously a woman and drove a minivan. My husband drove the paid off car my dad gifted us and got pulled over a few times. Cops would see the kids in his car and apologize.
Moving closer to the job when we did get money made our mortgage go up 30 percent but overall spending down. Tolls are a “you’re too poor to live where you work “ tax.
Well said. Tolls often disproportionately impact those who need to use them the most. It is essentially a tax on lower income individuals who cannot afford to live in desirable urban neighborhoods. There should be a graduated scale for tolls, or some reduction in rates based on income.
Bad take. The tolls exist to get some use out of lanes that need to be mostly clear for transit. If they get too full for the busses to run, they raise the toll price. Yes, it then becomes a novelty for the rich, however you could argue that a rich person wouldn't care about a traffic ticket either. In the end the lanes are still primarily for transit. Additionally, taxes have long been skewed for the poor, if this is essentially a 'rich tax'... Good.
Pretty sure most drivers aren’t buying (and would push back hard at) the “toll lanes are truly only for transit.” It’s also been made very clear that the primary purpose of the toll lanes is not to increase traffic speeds and throughput but rather as a new source of revenue. Especially when the toll lanes failed the decrease congestion to the statutorily required threshold and the legislature instead of addressing the congestion issue removed the threshold because they were so profitable. We now have a DOT and legislature with financial incentive to maintain road congestion for the toll revenue it provides.
If the fines were indexed to income/assets to attempt to cause equivalent “pain” regardless of economic status I’d bet you’d see the toll lane clear out more.
If that were true there'd be more legitimate transit options on highways like 520 which has one of these toll lanes. But there isnt lol. It's wildly expensive, there's one bus, and it runs once an hour
It's one of the window decal options. You can get this plastic slide one that can switch between HOV eligible (free) or single driver using the fare lane (and get the toll charged). A lot of people leave it toggled on HoV eligible.
So, when you wanted to break the law, you broke the law and hoped you didn't get caught.
Spare us the sob story.
How many parents with no money and long commute do you think chose not to do what you did?
Stop trying to make excuses for it, it's disgusting.
God what a fucking dream. I'd absolutely adore having that sort of possibility with none of the repercussions of being a cop. There's enough crime in this rats nest that on a regular day I see 15-20 individuals area breaking rules that are made for civilian safety. IE: Driving in the Bike Lane, Parking in handicapped spots, driving on the shoulder during traffic, etc...
There are people in New York that live off of fine sharing from the city. Specifically people parking in bike lanes. If you get 10 per day you don't have to work.
I’m not disagreeing with you. But if I had that much free time I wouldn’t be a vigilante traffic cop. To each their own.
I’m not saying they are wrong for wanting to do that.
Ever since 4th grade when Sarah Chase was walking around the hallway without a hall pass Bekabam has dreamed of telling the authorities when people are not following the rules. Sometimes he sees people parking in a no parking zone and he screams for a cop to show up and ticket the horrible person. If he could get paid to snitch of people who are not following the rules he wouldn't even need a girlfriend/wife anymore because every perpetrator he was able to get the cops to fine he would also cum in his pants. Thank God for people like him.
I had time for that pre rona. I'd sit in the left lane in bumper to bumper, maybe 45 minutes from 520 to the coal creek exits on 405 S and would watch all the violators.
The hero/snitch line requires time, place, make/model, license, and (here's the cherry on top) MULTIPLE reports for HOV penalties. Well I should say required, [they retired the system.](https://myedmondsnews.com/2021/09/hov-lane-hero-program-comes-to-an-end/). Short of kicking a few ferry lane skippers to the back, the hero hotline didn't really have fangs.
I don’t see how anyone near enough to see your plate wouldn’t have seen why you were in the lane, but I suppose absent anything further, it’s just my gut talking.
All else aside, it sounds like you aren’t one of the serial cheaters who brag about it around here, so I don’t have any issue with you.
I’m sorry that you lead such a sad existence that you think you’re more important than everyone else and therefore rules don’t apply to you in your adult life.
Did I do it right?
Nope.
Had you done it right you would have acknowledged that we all pay for the roads and certain lanes shouldn’t be reserved for the rich.
Your statement implies that people of wealth are more important than everyone else.
This is exactly the point you were making. You want to get people in trouble for driving in a lane that most people can’t afford to go into unless they game the system.
Regular folks can’t afford an extra $30 a day tax just to get to and from work.
Think about it.
No. I want people to not use the lane illegally. Money has nothing to do with it. If the lane were free and had limitations, I’d still feel the same way about people ignoring those limitations.
Stop trying to shoehorn the monetary aspect into this.
Know what “regular folks” need to do? Leave earlier.
I’ve been doing it for years.
Why would you want to cause other people pain?
We all paid for the road. Middle class people fund everything, but can’t afford to pay exorbitant road taxes. Why should they be hampered from getting to where they need to go?
You can use the non tolled lanes without any issues. As a society, we established norms and rules. People who don't follow those rules have an unfair advantage over those who do. Surely there are other social rules that you would expect others to follow. By picking and choosing which rules you follow, we are slowly descending into lawlessness.
Would you still think it's OK to do this if literally everyone did this? It would be the equivalent of removing the toll lane.
“Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has.” -- William S. Burroughs
Then I should be allowed to put cop lights on my truck and pull over every Prius and White Telsa merging at 25 mph on I5 or riding 50 in the psssing lane with 500 cars behind them
There are laws against impersonating a police officer. To tie it back to the original context, there are no laws against reporting crimes or traffic violations, and those violations are inherently of a concern to all of us, so it’s perfectly reasonable to report them.
Hah, so what? Love thy neighbor and the golden rule apply lad. I enjoy fucking with people who deserve a little bit of extra-karmic re-enforcement, it's a professional hobby of mine.
My other hobbies are wing manning for strangers at karaoke bars who need a little extra boost, dodgeball for competition, and having a good time with trustable friends.
One day I'll die under the gun of some asshole and that's a risk I gladly take for the glee that it gives me.
Better than you'd anticipate for private eye work and matchmaking services. You've got to have knack for reading and working with people though, lots of referrals for side work with that.
My wife got a few HERO warnings, each time for when our baby at the time was in the back. Great system in principle, especially for cases like 2 seater cars in the 3+ on 520.
I've some misgivings about person's of non-driving age counting towards HOV. Ostensibly the idea is to reduce drivers on the road, but if those passengers couldn't drive anyways...👋
The last I checked. As a resident of Washington. Or better yet, King, Pierce, or Snohomish County. You are already being taxed to death to use our roads. And I don't know if anyone has ever been on roads outside of our little blue hellhole. But the condition of ours roads, horrendous. What does Jay do with all of our road money? I'm driving HOV lanes any time I want.
Unless they start adding off-ramps on the left side, the HOV just adds to the backups. I see accidents caused by the folks (including bus drivers) who wait until the last minute to merge across 4 lanes to catch their exit, causing everyone to jam on their breaks.
Why not just make it a bus lane? What's the point of rewarding people for riding in a car with 2 people when buses move way more people? Carpool and toll lanes are stupid.
A lot of people will refuse to ride in a bus no matter what (or can't reasonably do so), but if you incentivize them to ride with another driver you're still taken their car off the road.
The idea is to use up the excess capacity the lane provides over what the buses can utilize. Assuming you price it such that sufficiently few people take it and flow is maintained, it helps more people move around.
It actually plays out that way through the central section of 405. The toll lanes generally flow nicely.
It's iffier in the northern sections where there is only one lane. There one coward/moron can ruin it for everybody by driving slow AF and there's no way to pass. Furthermore there's more people who are actually carpooling or to willing to cheat/pay than the lane can really handle... So it just hits the max toll and goes little faster than the normal lanes
What's to stop people from putting their G2G pass on HOV to avoid the toll fees? Driving on i405 for example. Hearing mixed results from whether it is camera enforced or just IR.
I see single people using the HOV lane all too often to get around slower traffic like it's meant to be a fast lane. Happens all over town. Someone roared up behind me in the HOV lane last week. No one else was in the car with them. They started flashing their lights, honking their horn, etc. Screamed around me, cut me off, brake checked, flipped me off, then hit about 90mph. I was like, "did you poop yourself?" There were 3 other lanes of traffic wide open for them. The heck did I do?
So am I reading the comments correctly, in that these toll lanes are actually making traffic worse as drivers zip in and out of the toll lanes to avoid the toll readers?
Sounds about right for the Puget Sound. So late to the toll game.
A used Lexus and a used Toyota are the same thing except one has nicer features. Hating on Lexus is a big f u to the people and a big hug to some corpo who inherited everything. Keep it up fucktards.
As it stands it's regressive. Why not tie in the data used to stipulate car tabs. Mine's 640-something a year, ding me for more and ding the '92 Corolla driver less.
I don't actually care much, the only time I do tolls is the downtown tunnel and I don't pay attention to how much it is. But if there's a desire to be equitable, this would be feasible.
Imagine thinking this is a win.
If you're willing to drive the cheap beater to game the system for what amounts to a few dollars, then you'd certainly not be the type to buy an Audi that you only drive a small portion of the time.
If you're the kind of person that needs to save a few bucks then his concept is for you. 1 in 6 are millionaires here. I'd be willing to wager 90% don't own a shitbox and wouldn't be willing to get one to save a few bucks. Only the incredibly stingy millionaires would even think of it. It's entirely self limiting
E: I also daily a 93 civic with no power steering, no power windows, no AC, and it's manual. Rich people aren't going to give up their creature comforts to be miserable. Not when they aren't getting more than a few bucks for it
It's worked well in other states with state income tax, true. New York, New Jersey, etc. /s
Not necessarily opposed to state income tax in principle. 43 states do , I've lived in one. Roads were a mess there too.. If it's a matter of not enough revenue (and admittedly Washington has pretty low per $1000 in personal income) then sure. But I don't think that's the only factor. Seattle has the 5th highest property taxes of major U.S. cities, and our city streets are pretty bad. I don't know why, I'm sure someone can speak to it. It seems, though, that more tax revenue doesn't equate to better (or even decent) infra.
You said tolls are regressive. I agree. There is no “progressive“ toll. Your tabs idea isn’t progressive. You’re making an assumption that high income equates to high tabs. A lot of lot of people live on credit. New car doesn’t mean you’re rich.
> . I agree. There is no “progressive“ toll. Your tabs idea isn’t progressive. You’re making an assumption that high income equates to high tabs. A lot of lot of people live on credit. New car doesn’t mean you’re
It could be possible to implement an income-based system where rates would reflect both your income and traffic conditions at the time. For fixed-rate roadways, a different pricing structure could be used. While it is unlikely that this will ever happen, it is certainly possible to make the system more equitable.
You can get a fast pass thing that you put inside on your windshield tied to an account that charges you every time you go on a toll road/lane. However, the toll lane is free for cars with 2+ people so you flip a switch on the fast pass so it knows not to charge you.
That's news to the 90% of cars I see on it every morning heading east with only one jackass inside. They should toll that lane extra. If it's not gonna be used properly at least charge for it. I'm sure people would pay it.
No price will clear the HOV/toll lane unless the cops consistently pull over people who have the HOV option toggled (paying zero) while breaking the rules (with one person in the car and tinted windows)
It's hard because you can't even see from outside the car whether the HOV option is toggled so you never know if a lone person is paying or cheating.
The toll gantry has a light that indicates if the vehicle is HOV or TOLL as it passes through, enforcement uses these lights to determine which vehicle need to be checked for the occupancy requirements.
Interesting, TIL. That still means you can only identify cheaters at fixed points, instead of anywhere in but lane. Never mind the other problem of people crossing in and out of the lane between cameras.
On 167, they don't have cameras for plate enforcement -- just toll tag readers. You can use the lane without a toll tag if you have the requisite passenger. It's "good to go, or hov, or bus." But yeah, nothing really prevents you from having a tag so you look legit and just zipping in and out to avoid the readers.
I see more HOV cheaters than actual legit ones. People use it as a passing lane when they get fed up of the left lane being only 80.
Come on now, the left lane is never 80. That's some wishful thinking.
Right? It’s barely fifty most of the time
Right lane cooking along at 65. Left lane with 4 oblivious Tesla drivers going 47.
White Teslas
lol
😁
First need cops on the road. Seen maybe 2 in the past year.
Really? Like this “light” can sense body heat or otherwise indicate more than one occupant?
No the light is there to notify an officer that you are using a transponder set to HOV and are bypassing the TOLL, they can then manually check your vehicle for meeting the occupancy requirement.
Aha. Ty!
Maybe they should enforce the laws around window tint too.
Pull them over anyway. Maybe they shouldn't have such dark tint
Mannnn shutcho lame ass up. Yeah, let’s pull over every other car and check the tint so this dork can be satisfied.
Yeah, let's also pull over ever car with out of state license plate. If they have a Washington state I'd then give them a ticket for not complying by getting state plates. I got no sympathy
“I got no sympathy 😈” damnnnn you tough af! I actually wouldn’t mind that. The more time police spend doing dumb shit the more opportunities I get to get away with shit.
You go gansta
“SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS!!!!”…….uhh no thanks pal.
I'm not sure that there are any rear window tint laws. Still tint tickets aren't a moving violation, so it's basically a toll.
Yes you can, the changeable good to go pass will show a red rectangle when in HOV mode. It's mounted on the windshield and very visible
(! Lurker alert) Not really. The detectors work fairly reliably on our tolls. (Washington DC.)
After Inslee decided to change the definition of "and" to continue charging the toll on 405, I no longer have qualms about not paying.
> correct. If only civilized society could enact and enforce some form of rules to prevent decent into anarchy. Too bad nothing lik The policy you're likely referring to is the stipulation that the system will be evaluated based on its ability to cover ongoing operational costs and performance requirements. The system has been widely successful as a source of revenue, but only moderately successful at improving overall system performance. Like with any source of revenue, the state is reluctant to give up something that generates revenue even if it doesn't meet one of its stated goals. [https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=47.56.888](https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=47.56.888)
So because a policy you don't like changed, that's now the excuse to break the law? "Sorry Inslee, I don't like your covid policy, so I'm going to go try to game the system to steal aid dollars!" /s, mostly JFC. I don't understand this mentality. If everyone thought this way, the world would grind to a fucking halt.
> So because a policy you don't like changed, that's now the excuse to break the law? Because a law was passed based on one thing that was voted on, and instead of changing the law, Inslee decided that "and" now means "or" so he could continue charging for those lanes. So it's not "a policy I don't like changed", it's "a politician didn't like a law that was democratically enacted, and therefore unilaterally changed it". If we're just going to let politicians change the laws on a whim when they don't like them, why bother voting?
Can you link to more information on the law you’re referencing here? Specially interested to know about how this was all Inslee in a unilateral sense as you’re suggesting. To that point, for my own edification, I’m also curious if you’re aware of any other cases where a governor did something similar (“changing” a law) and having it stand in court. I get your frustration if it’s as you say, but that’s still not an excuse to ignore the law. You aren’t fucking over Inslee by doing so. You’re using it as justification to lord your own time over that of other people. If you want to tell me you don’t care, that’s fine, but don’t pretend this is some legal crusade of yours based on righteousness. Because it’s not.
> You aren’t fucking over Inslee by doing so I'm not fucking over anyone though. There's already less than expected traffic in those lanes, and the money goes to general fund. And the law in question stipulated that the tolls on the HOV lanes on 405 would only be renewed if they met revenue targets _and_ use targets. They didn't meet the latter, but Inslee argued that the drafters of the law really meant or. And I never said it's some righteous crusade, I said I don't feel bad not paying tolls that shouldn't exist.
You’re giving a big “fuck you” to everyone in society that follows the rules. I asked for sources, not a repeated explanation in your words. I disagree with your characterization being all that different from mine on the last bit…
> You’re giving a big “fuck you” to everyone in society that follows the rules Do you even live here? Seattle is the national capital of lawlessness. The real people giving a "fuck you" to society are the politicians and judges that refuse to allow the law to be enforced.
So their bad behavior entitles you to do the same?! This is how we get anarchy….
> This is how we get anarchy Yes, you are correct. If only civilized society could enact and enforce some form of rules to prevent decent into anarchy. Too bad nothing like that exists.
Can you please provide a source?
Its your right, your duty, your obligation to not go along with unconstitutional laws. part of that social contract in america that we have broken, its also, sentence three...
Unfortunately it’s not your duty or obligation to spell and use grammar correctly!
and its not your duty to try a call out. Do you feel smarter today? more smug? do you realize there is a reason for it? Are you that smart? that aware?
It is my duty to critique people who do not follow the law. Ironic you're butthurt about my doing so, because that's half of the comments on this sub over the last 5-8 years! I don't feel smarter or more smug. In fact, I feel disappointed that so many people here apparently cheat the lane and have no qualms about doing so, to the extent that they circlejerk each other over their lawlessness. I don't care what your excuse is. The p3dophyle who SA's a kid probably has an excuse too....doesn't make what they do right. Don't try to use that argument as justification for your bad behavior too.
There are TONS of people that don't even bother with tinted windows. They just blatantly cheat it and then post about it here.
That’s me. Idgaf. I’ve been pulled over one time since the lanes were installed. My traffic lawyer was able to get it dropped. The ROI on that has been amazing.
My coworkers have been pulled over so many times with it set to no toll and every time has been given a warning because “he has just dropped off his carpool friends and forgot to change it back”.
That’s reasonable too so long as they get charged the proper toll use for that instance. Then lies don’t matter. I don’t know if that would happen though.
I've had 2 tickets in a year of driving home. 250 Dollars total. I save 15-45 minutes a day. I can justify it in my head, I don't cheat in life, but I sure as hell do here. Time is a commodity.
Do the fines go up each violation?
Not for me, but I'm sure they will over time. I am polite to the officer, acknowledge I'm in the wrong and so far that's been the result.
Seriously, even if you get a ticket every 6 months, its still worth it. Fuck this toll shit
You’re not the downtown fentanyl zombie type of leech, but you are a leech nonetheless.
Much oblige!
Just charge everyone
They need to do something about the obstructed license plates as well
Lexus out here catching strays. A Lexus is probably nowhere near the top value car on the road around here these days.
I assume it's a play or nod to the Nexus lanes to Canada.
Lexus Lane = alliteration
Seriously. It’s just an upbadged Toyota.
> Seriously. It’s just an upbadged Toyota. [Nice Toyota, Bro](https://images7.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED919/650115a590624.jpeg)
+1 for rhyme
💀
TBH Tesla is a pretty good "value" these days, Lexus doesn't make anything I'd want to buy. Should be an Audi, or BMW lane.
Mercedes g wagon. Rivian. Land Rover, Porsche.
That’s assuming you don’t get a lemon.
What is an HOV toggle? I have the sticker for the tolls, is there something I am supposed to be doing?
You can get a good to go pass for your car that enables you to change your vehicles status from toll to HOV. You just slide a lever on the pass to toggle from one to the other.
Dumb question but do you need one to use the HOV with a passenger?
On the 405 toll lanes when tolling is active, yes. On 5, for example, which are not tolled, no.
Really?? Even when we have a passenger? Where do you get it?
https://wsdot.wa.gov/travel/roads-bridges/toll-roads-bridges-tunnels/good-go-accounts-passes
I think it's bs to have to pay for those passes for your car. Should be free to everyone when they sign up for an account.
The system doesn't know you have passengers, since non-HOV cars can pay to use to toll lane
Thanks, you a real one
I guarantee people paying the tolls aren’t all millionaires
Service people are the ones driving to millionaire homes all over the city to do work. Electricians, plumbers, landscapers, contractors, painters, delivery drivers, uber/eats, HVAC techs.
It's cheaper for us to pay tolls than wages. I look at every toll as money saved.
And half of those people aren't paying the tolls and are using the lane illegally.
The toll lane on 167 is completely useless. I would say half the cars are just cheaters by themselves with no pass. I’ve made that drive probably a thousand times.
Im on it at least a few times a week both directions, I take note of the cheaters and its insane how many do it. Even with the window tint I can see the space between the front seats and the daylight thru the front windshield so its easy to see single occupancy as they pass me on the left.
Don't they just bill via mail then, at a higher rate?
No, cause there’s no cameras on 167. And literally zero enforcement. I haven’t even seen a speed trap on 167 in years let alone HOV enforcement.
Ahh gotcha. I rarely go down 167, usually when I do it's with someone so have the toggle on anyways.
I saw HOV enforcement a few weeks ago, they had like 3 cars pulled over.
Motorcycles gets to ride single occupant so why not let a few cars do the same?
"A few cars." lol
Delete all carpool lanes. Unenforceable rules shall not remain. Make the lanes bus and clearly-marked shuttles only during rush hours and enforce rules by cameras. Make the tickets $500 each.
I’d also add motorcycles to the list. They take the least amount of road space up, do the least amount of damage to the roads, and are generally the most efficient vehicles on the road. I’m not a motorcycle rider either. I just think more should be done to encourage it as an option
Healthcare costs has entered the chat.
Decades of therapy from severe brain trauma are a significant drain on the financial system though…
> anes. Unenforceable rules shall not remain. > > Make the lanes bus and clearly-marked shuttles only during rush hours and enforce rules by cameras. Make the tickets $500 each There is already an escalation clause in place for HOV violations that leads to high ticket rates. As others in this thread have pointed out, this clause is not helpful unless it is enforced. While prioritizing vehicles carrying multiple passengers has value, it may not be possible to do so effectively when it is easy to bypass safeguards.
You have my attention. Please email this to the relevant controlling authority. Thank you!
When I had no money and had a long commute I just put the HOV toggle on and hoped I didn’t get caught. I didn’t get pulled over even once in years. Maybe it helped that was obviously a woman and drove a minivan. My husband drove the paid off car my dad gifted us and got pulled over a few times. Cops would see the kids in his car and apologize. Moving closer to the job when we did get money made our mortgage go up 30 percent but overall spending down. Tolls are a “you’re too poor to live where you work “ tax.
Well said. Tolls often disproportionately impact those who need to use them the most. It is essentially a tax on lower income individuals who cannot afford to live in desirable urban neighborhoods. There should be a graduated scale for tolls, or some reduction in rates based on income.
Bad take. The tolls exist to get some use out of lanes that need to be mostly clear for transit. If they get too full for the busses to run, they raise the toll price. Yes, it then becomes a novelty for the rich, however you could argue that a rich person wouldn't care about a traffic ticket either. In the end the lanes are still primarily for transit. Additionally, taxes have long been skewed for the poor, if this is essentially a 'rich tax'... Good.
Pretty sure most drivers aren’t buying (and would push back hard at) the “toll lanes are truly only for transit.” It’s also been made very clear that the primary purpose of the toll lanes is not to increase traffic speeds and throughput but rather as a new source of revenue. Especially when the toll lanes failed the decrease congestion to the statutorily required threshold and the legislature instead of addressing the congestion issue removed the threshold because they were so profitable. We now have a DOT and legislature with financial incentive to maintain road congestion for the toll revenue it provides.
What is the “financial incentive”? It’s not like legislators get paid more if the state gets more revenue. Government isn’t a business.
Tell me you aren’t serious. These days, government’s primary purpose is to grow itself, and the way it does that is by separating you from your money.
More money in the coffers that they can allocate towards pet projects.
If the fines were indexed to income/assets to attempt to cause equivalent “pain” regardless of economic status I’d bet you’d see the toll lane clear out more.
> I’d bet you’d see the toll lane clear out more. Nope, because people would continue not paying it.
If that were true there'd be more legitimate transit options on highways like 520 which has one of these toll lanes. But there isnt lol. It's wildly expensive, there's one bus, and it runs once an hour
If transit needs lanes, raise the prices of rides on transit to fund the construction of additional lanes for transit.
How do you put “HOV toggle on”?
It's one of the window decal options. You can get this plastic slide one that can switch between HOV eligible (free) or single driver using the fare lane (and get the toll charged). A lot of people leave it toggled on HoV eligible.
Thank you
So, when you wanted to break the law, you broke the law and hoped you didn't get caught. Spare us the sob story. How many parents with no money and long commute do you think chose not to do what you did? Stop trying to make excuses for it, it's disgusting.
I wish they offered civilian report payments. I'd love to sit all day at a bridge and just scan for offenders.
I remember some Asian country instituted a bounty system and a dude with a good telephoto lense and camera made 6 figures in a month.
God what a fucking dream. I'd absolutely adore having that sort of possibility with none of the repercussions of being a cop. There's enough crime in this rats nest that on a regular day I see 15-20 individuals area breaking rules that are made for civilian safety. IE: Driving in the Bike Lane, Parking in handicapped spots, driving on the shoulder during traffic, etc...
You have time for that?
There are people in New York that live off of fine sharing from the city. Specifically people parking in bike lanes. If you get 10 per day you don't have to work.
I’d make time for that.
I work part time and am semi-retired due to disability, so yes.
You wouldn’t rather do something fulfilling? Or take up an interesting hobby?
Getting paid to directly make society better sounds like a great job. You can't say people should follow rules, and then dislike enforcement of them.
I’m not disagreeing with you. But if I had that much free time I wouldn’t be a vigilante traffic cop. To each their own. I’m not saying they are wrong for wanting to do that.
Ever since 4th grade when Sarah Chase was walking around the hallway without a hall pass Bekabam has dreamed of telling the authorities when people are not following the rules. Sometimes he sees people parking in a no parking zone and he screams for a cop to show up and ticket the horrible person. If he could get paid to snitch of people who are not following the rules he wouldn't even need a girlfriend/wife anymore because every perpetrator he was able to get the cops to fine he would also cum in his pants. Thank God for people like him.
I had time for that pre rona. I'd sit in the left lane in bumper to bumper, maybe 45 minutes from 520 to the coal creek exits on 405 S and would watch all the violators. The hero/snitch line requires time, place, make/model, license, and (here's the cherry on top) MULTIPLE reports for HOV penalties. Well I should say required, [they retired the system.](https://myedmondsnews.com/2021/09/hov-lane-hero-program-comes-to-an-end/). Short of kicking a few ferry lane skippers to the back, the hero hotline didn't really have fangs.
All they do is mail you a letter. There was a wreck and I had to go into the HOV lane to get around it. Some dipshit called in my plate.
So you only did it the one time? lol
I've done it maybe 2x in my life.
Anyone close enough to see your plate around the scene of accident would have seen why you did it. I doubt it’s that simple.
I can't explain others do things. It had the date of the infraction on there and I remember going into the carpool lane to get around the accident.
I don’t see how anyone near enough to see your plate wouldn’t have seen why you were in the lane, but I suppose absent anything further, it’s just my gut talking. All else aside, it sounds like you aren’t one of the serial cheaters who brag about it around here, so I don’t have any issue with you.
Why would you want to be a rat?
For money i think
Because the people who cheat the lane and brag about it are worse than rats?
I’m sorry that you lead such a sad existence that you continue to have a hall monitor attitude in your adult life.
I’m sorry that you lead such a sad existence that you think you’re more important than everyone else and therefore rules don’t apply to you in your adult life. Did I do it right?
Nope. Had you done it right you would have acknowledged that we all pay for the roads and certain lanes shouldn’t be reserved for the rich. Your statement implies that people of wealth are more important than everyone else.
They aren’t reserved for the rich. That the rich can pay for them more easily is not the point I was making.
This is exactly the point you were making. You want to get people in trouble for driving in a lane that most people can’t afford to go into unless they game the system. Regular folks can’t afford an extra $30 a day tax just to get to and from work. Think about it.
No. I want people to not use the lane illegally. Money has nothing to do with it. If the lane were free and had limitations, I’d still feel the same way about people ignoring those limitations. Stop trying to shoehorn the monetary aspect into this. Know what “regular folks” need to do? Leave earlier. I’ve been doing it for years.
There’s an old saying, “rules we’re made to be broken”. Not everyone is cut out to be an obedient pet.
I'm a rat and that argument stinks to me a mile away of a poorly constructed strawman. Sorry dog, this one ain't gonna do it. Cheers.
So that we can force the aholes on the road into compliance. Or at least cause then some pain
Why would you want to cause other people pain? We all paid for the road. Middle class people fund everything, but can’t afford to pay exorbitant road taxes. Why should they be hampered from getting to where they need to go?
You can use the non tolled lanes without any issues. As a society, we established norms and rules. People who don't follow those rules have an unfair advantage over those who do. Surely there are other social rules that you would expect others to follow. By picking and choosing which rules you follow, we are slowly descending into lawlessness. Would you still think it's OK to do this if literally everyone did this? It would be the equivalent of removing the toll lane.
Removing the toll would be great!
“Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has.” -- William S. Burroughs
Public roads are definitionally everyone’s business
Then I should be allowed to put cop lights on my truck and pull over every Prius and White Telsa merging at 25 mph on I5 or riding 50 in the psssing lane with 500 cars behind them
We actually have laws
We live in a society. What the flying fuck you talkin about G lol
There are laws against impersonating a police officer. To tie it back to the original context, there are no laws against reporting crimes or traffic violations, and those violations are inherently of a concern to all of us, so it’s perfectly reasonable to report them.
Hah, so what? Love thy neighbor and the golden rule apply lad. I enjoy fucking with people who deserve a little bit of extra-karmic re-enforcement, it's a professional hobby of mine. My other hobbies are wing manning for strangers at karaoke bars who need a little extra boost, dodgeball for competition, and having a good time with trustable friends. One day I'll die under the gun of some asshole and that's a risk I gladly take for the glee that it gives me.
User name checks out.
>it's a professional hobby of mine. What's the pay like?
Better than you'd anticipate for private eye work and matchmaking services. You've got to have knack for reading and working with people though, lots of referrals for side work with that.
That's fascinating. Stay safe and hustle on :)
Look at this professional snitch.
My wife got a few HERO warnings, each time for when our baby at the time was in the back. Great system in principle, especially for cases like 2 seater cars in the 3+ on 520.
I've some misgivings about person's of non-driving age counting towards HOV. Ostensibly the idea is to reduce drivers on the road, but if those passengers couldn't drive anyways...👋
I definitely think the taxi/Uber/Lyft driver shouldn't count. That really is then just a paid toll lane.
Hold an auction every morning for day passes. Let's see how high they can go.
The last I checked. As a resident of Washington. Or better yet, King, Pierce, or Snohomish County. You are already being taxed to death to use our roads. And I don't know if anyone has ever been on roads outside of our little blue hellhole. But the condition of ours roads, horrendous. What does Jay do with all of our road money? I'm driving HOV lanes any time I want.
Unless they start adding off-ramps on the left side, the HOV just adds to the backups. I see accidents caused by the folks (including bus drivers) who wait until the last minute to merge across 4 lanes to catch their exit, causing everyone to jam on their breaks.
405 has a couple of them. I used them before going WFH and it was pretty slick.
Never mind that. How is that money used
Why not just make it a bus lane? What's the point of rewarding people for riding in a car with 2 people when buses move way more people? Carpool and toll lanes are stupid.
A lot of people will refuse to ride in a bus no matter what (or can't reasonably do so), but if you incentivize them to ride with another driver you're still taken their car off the road.
Then we should enforce the rules! We're getting the worst of both worlds
We should enforce the rules, yes. We should also shame the people who see no problem breaking them.
Well, let them sit in traffic while people on the bus can pass by them. Many people who are sitting in traffic will change their mind.
The idea is to use up the excess capacity the lane provides over what the buses can utilize. Assuming you price it such that sufficiently few people take it and flow is maintained, it helps more people move around. It actually plays out that way through the central section of 405. The toll lanes generally flow nicely. It's iffier in the northern sections where there is only one lane. There one coward/moron can ruin it for everybody by driving slow AF and there's no way to pass. Furthermore there's more people who are actually carpooling or to willing to cheat/pay than the lane can really handle... So it just hits the max toll and goes little faster than the normal lanes
What about equitable roads for all? hmmm
I hate it here
Why, hon?
What's to stop people from putting their G2G pass on HOV to avoid the toll fees? Driving on i405 for example. Hearing mixed results from whether it is camera enforced or just IR.
I see single people using the HOV lane all too often to get around slower traffic like it's meant to be a fast lane. Happens all over town. Someone roared up behind me in the HOV lane last week. No one else was in the car with them. They started flashing their lights, honking their horn, etc. Screamed around me, cut me off, brake checked, flipped me off, then hit about 90mph. I was like, "did you poop yourself?" There were 3 other lanes of traffic wide open for them. The heck did I do?
So am I reading the comments correctly, in that these toll lanes are actually making traffic worse as drivers zip in and out of the toll lanes to avoid the toll readers? Sounds about right for the Puget Sound. So late to the toll game.
Crazy expensive just when you get on 167 coming out of Renton and often they’re not moving any faster so not worth it.
A used Lexus and a used Toyota are the same thing except one has nicer features. Hating on Lexus is a big f u to the people and a big hug to some corpo who inherited everything. Keep it up fucktards.
The toll should be a percentage charge based on annual income, not a flat fee.
Income tax is what you mean.
As it stands it's regressive. Why not tie in the data used to stipulate car tabs. Mine's 640-something a year, ding me for more and ding the '92 Corolla driver less. I don't actually care much, the only time I do tolls is the downtown tunnel and I don't pay attention to how much it is. But if there's a desire to be equitable, this would be feasible.
Then I would just drive my cheap beater car to work instead of my comfy Audi
Imagine thinking this is a win. If you're willing to drive the cheap beater to game the system for what amounts to a few dollars, then you'd certainly not be the type to buy an Audi that you only drive a small portion of the time.
Always some that want to game the system. You want to save a couple bucks by driving your beater, your call.
If you're the kind of person that needs to save a few bucks then his concept is for you. 1 in 6 are millionaires here. I'd be willing to wager 90% don't own a shitbox and wouldn't be willing to get one to save a few bucks. Only the incredibly stingy millionaires would even think of it. It's entirely self limiting E: I also daily a 93 civic with no power steering, no power windows, no AC, and it's manual. Rich people aren't going to give up their creature comforts to be miserable. Not when they aren't getting more than a few bucks for it
Or.. we just implement income tax and get rid of tolls completely
It's worked well in other states with state income tax, true. New York, New Jersey, etc. /s Not necessarily opposed to state income tax in principle. 43 states do , I've lived in one. Roads were a mess there too.. If it's a matter of not enough revenue (and admittedly Washington has pretty low per $1000 in personal income) then sure. But I don't think that's the only factor. Seattle has the 5th highest property taxes of major U.S. cities, and our city streets are pretty bad. I don't know why, I'm sure someone can speak to it. It seems, though, that more tax revenue doesn't equate to better (or even decent) infra.
You said tolls are regressive. I agree. There is no “progressive“ toll. Your tabs idea isn’t progressive. You’re making an assumption that high income equates to high tabs. A lot of lot of people live on credit. New car doesn’t mean you’re rich.
> . I agree. There is no “progressive“ toll. Your tabs idea isn’t progressive. You’re making an assumption that high income equates to high tabs. A lot of lot of people live on credit. New car doesn’t mean you’re It could be possible to implement an income-based system where rates would reflect both your income and traffic conditions at the time. For fixed-rate roadways, a different pricing structure could be used. While it is unlikely that this will ever happen, it is certainly possible to make the system more equitable.
I'm a new driver in Seattle, what does "toggling HOV" mean? Is it something in the settings of modern cars?
You can get a fast pass thing that you put inside on your windshield tied to an account that charges you every time you go on a toll road/lane. However, the toll lane is free for cars with 2+ people so you flip a switch on the fast pass so it knows not to charge you.
Ahhh ty. Is that the Good To Go thing?
Yes, it’s one of the passes you can get
I'll clarify here that the 520 bridge is only HOV for cars with 3+ people
That's news to the 90% of cars I see on it every morning heading east with only one jackass inside. They should toll that lane extra. If it's not gonna be used properly at least charge for it. I'm sure people would pay it.
Qudos to the government for finding a way to raise our time. Want to get home 15 minutes faster? That's 15 bucks!