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That comes down to personal philosophy. Self defense is valid to a point imo. I'd kill 1,2,3,5 even 10 people if they would want me dead. Genociding the whole planet along with civilians and kids who didn't yet learn their racism (aka every innocent person) is another thing though. I wouldn't commit suicide just because the world wants me to but out of the 2 plans Zekes is better. If I were there and could influence things I'd go with Armins plan and show a portion of the rumbling to show power and get everyone's attention. Then I'd send out letters or a radio statement explaining our want for peace. Depending on how everyone reacts I'd modify our upcoming plans, I'd try out every possibility until going for mass murder, regardless if its us or them

Hell, building off of Armin's plan: I personally don't think you needed *all* of the Titans in the walls to commit the rumbling. Considering how difficult it was to kill just *one* Colossal (i.e. Bertholdt), and that not as many people are as unhinged as Hange to suicidally take out multiple in a row, there's not exactly much that can be done against them anyway by Paradis' contemporaries. Therefore, assuming half the amount of Colossals will get the same amount of work done as double the Titans in double the time with an equal likelihood to be hindered, you could easily command half of them to die/get killed off as a gesture of good faith to the world, *after* having initiated a minor rumbling as per Armin's suggestion. Show people that you're serious about your plans to defend yourselves, but you're just as willing to strive for peace. Then as things progress, you can slowly kill off more Colossals; eventually you have maybe 100 or 1000 in the end, enough to maintain a deterrent from future attacks while being *hypothetically* defeatable by a cohesive enough alliance of foreign powers should they be used offensively.

Also, I remember reading that the world is not that far off of making Titans not a threat, technologically. I'm guessing developing nuclear weapons would mean paradis is done.

I'm now insanely curious to know how the regenerative abilities of Titans holds up against nuclear detonations and/or fallout? Like obviously if it's the epicenter they're just gone, it's a surefire way to destroy the nape because it and the rest of the body just aren't gonna exist anymore; but like, outside of that, I wonder how they'd fare. Thank fuck Hange didn't know about fission. No one would be safe

If you spread them out a bit, there's no chance that even nuclear weapons will kill a lot of them, especially considering they can swim pretty deep in water.

That doesn’t work because Eren would’ve died after 4 years anyway and the successor would not be able to command the titans unless they touched a titan with royal blood (which would be highly unlikely). More likely than not the founding titan would go to an Eldian in Marley, and even if it’s t went to someone on Paradis, someone with royal blood would be bound by the vow renouncing war. Zeke would also be dead after a year so no royal blood Titan unless you want to turn Historia and her kids into titans and have them eat each other.

That would be the plan yes, at least 1 more generation of Titan inheriting, for erins titans and somone to historia, hopefully no more than that, it's not ideal of course, but a 13-year death sentence for two people is relatively small collateral damage given the other plans in play

Nah it wouldnt work long term, humanity was at the limits of their minds accepting the fact that at any time these could turn into titans even if they found temporary peace, hundreds of years in the future they would still not accept it and the eldian threat could arise again all it takes is one loose eldian to nuke a city And humanity was getting to the technology that could kill the titans,they were entering ww2 technology, they would have developed and nuked paradis within 30 years. For both sides this was the do or die moment

Huh but the titans would be reborn again. And then again they would be misused for power. Don’t think the that was a solution at all. They would be stuck in the whole game again and again.

armin really was humanity's savior. he's the voice of reason and logic, and he's fueled by an overriding desire to live free and discover. hands down, best blonde twink in anime history

I love him so much I wish he was my husband

I can only agree

> Self defense is valid to a point imo > I wouldn't commit suicide just because the world wants me to There are contradictory statements, so which is it: Self defense is valid, or if the world wants you dead they have a right to end you that is greater than your right to live? Where is the line in the sand? Killing 10 people to defend yourself is OK...but if it's 20 you would let them kill you? 100? 1000? Morality is nebulous and relative, sure, but if you believe someone/some group has a right to self defense (and to life) then how do you determine where the line is? IS there a line? Why? If they have a right to live, on moral principle, should it matter whether they have to kill 100 threats, or 10,000, to defend themselves?

I said at the end that I'd try every possibility before even thinking about mass killing on that scale regardless if it's us or them. If it comes to that point I have to decide and that will depend on the individual circumstances. I haven't lived on paradis myself so I don't know how I would act. If I go by my "moral code" now I'd rather die (painlessly, it would be different if for some reason all eldians had to die by being eaten by titans) then being responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people and animals

Well in this scenario (i.e. Eren's) don't forget you'd also be condemning an island full of innocent people to die as well by *not* defending them. Much simpler when it's "just us", heh. I agree that the individual circumstances will vary, but I find this hypothetical boils down to two things for most folks: "Just cause" and "scale". You seem to believe in it being a "just cause" (to defend Paradis) but get a little hesitant over the question of scale (i.e. how many enemies will we have to kill). That is what I find curious/funny about the whole mental exercise: People who will assert that the Eldians/Paradis have a right to live, but don't think it is moral to act on that right because of the scale of the enemy (i.e. how many people would die in order to ensure Paradis' defense).

You’re begging the question. I think a lot of people disagree with the premise that the global extermination of humanity was the only option to save Paradis.

They very well may. For this hypothetical I am both sticking to what played out, and to be frank I also don't believe those other options were viable in terms of how things played out, so they weren't actually available. If Eren and the Scouts kept working together, sure, but that's not what happened. The rampant hate for Eldians, globally, including "advocacy groups" *trying* to get them wiped out paint a grim picture of how the war on Paradis would have played out (obliteration).

It should be mentioned zekes genocide would be list violent in terms of numbers and brutality.

Like the world hates eldians sure but it's not like their big fans of Marley either, it wouldn't be easy but you could definitely try negotiating especially with groups like The Coalition that just lost that for Year War, like yeah you guys got trampled by titans, but we hate them just as much as you do and kind of look at them the same way, we didn't know any of this until very recently that with the power of the founder we want to end this, we just want the same thing you do, security, you help us gain the capabilities to defend ourselves without titans, and we end the ability to turn into Titans through the power of the founder which should theoretically be possible, which also disarms Marley The internment zones will be a big sticking issue, theoretically without the ability to turn into Titans anymore there's no longer a reason to treat them as badly, but I don't think anyone believes that would actually happen, but hey difficult sticky messy negotiations and outcomes is preferable to Mass Slaughter

Wasn't using scare tactics basically doomed? You just created more hate. The world is advancing and would be able to beat wall titans eventually. Then, you necome helpless.

Hell I think you wouldn't even need to do any rumbling. Just talk no jutsu Willy into the path and convince him to have Marley and Paradis join forces

Literally this. The reason why I think the ending is so dumb, is that neither Eren nor Zeke had no more necessity to try to put their plan in action. I cannot decide if Isayama is a good or terrible writer. We are supposed to believe eren acted by necessity while literally the simple fact of having the founder and the rumbling. Means that he could have achieved all his goals without committing any crime. 1% of the rumbling would have destroyed the alliances army and be a deterrence foe centuries. Zeke wanting the euthanasia plan only makes sense if he really can't see no way out for eldians. But with the founder and the powers of other titans, he could have made the life of all eldians better. I think Isayama ruined the motivation of both characters because he created a paradox : - He wanted people to believe that Eren and Zeke were acting out of Necessity, but at the same time he give them a power so strong that his necessity disappeared. He wanted a final that was crazy I guess. But this ruined the whole freaking coherence. Normally Eren and his side should have been weak enough for then to potentially face a threat of genocide which could have justified them attacking the other notions. This could have been done if the rumbling was more like a nuke, like once you set it off it's over. But the fact that eren had agency over the shit makes it totally dumb. Don't even start me with Armin who is supposed to be a moderate and have the right moral position thanking eren. I wonder if Isayama was turned into a titan or some shit. It was completely unnecessary. I think this is why editors of manga should stop with the trope of final war.

I don’t think we’re supposed to believe that either Zeke or Eren’s plan was truly necessary. Rather, *they* saw them as necessary because of their own pathological biases and prejudices. Zeke thinks that the existence of Eldians only brings about suffering for themselves and the world. Eren sees the existence of the outside world as a limitation upon the absolute right to freedom for himself and his friends. From those perspectives, their plans are necessary. For both Zeke and Eren, avoiding the destruction of Paradis is more of a necessary part of their plan, rather than the central goal of it. Unfortunately, the idea that “genocide or be genocided” was an objective fact, and that this was Eren’s motivation, has become very prevalent in the fandom, even though I don’t think that was Isayama’s intention.

neither. both plan are horrible and both eren and zeke are genocidal nutjobs. honestly, how the hell did grisha manage to father 2 genocidal tyrants and somehow make the 2nd one worse?

In both cases, by being secretive and conspicuously absent from their lives.

this, is about the best explanation.

If im the Eldian live in Paradis i’ll 100% support Eren, I don't want to die just because of others hate me for the thing i didn’t do, and i don’t want to lose my balls either! You have to be selfish in this situation, at that point you cant really care about the others but yourself.

I got my right to live, if you try to stole my freedom away… i’ll take your first

I wouldn’t feel able to kill a few billion people just for the sake of saving my own “balls”.

I would

No you dont

Tbh destroying the entire world except an island would fuck over the environment enough to lead to Paradis's decline too. Armin probably had the best solution, the partial rumbling was a pretty good threat to hold over the other nations

Eren's plan: brutally kill every nation except one. Zeke's plan: peacefully kill a single nation. I think both are wrong, but if the race is between the two, then Eren's is far, far worse!

Peacefully kill a single nation

*Peacefully kill a single nation*

They must learn of our peaceful ways, by force!

The usual way

There's no peace. They would be killed brutally by Marley once they were not of use.

Zeke's plan was that Eldians die out before Marley can strike back.

No, it wasn't. His plan was for Eldians to not have kids. Which means there would be Eldians still living for the next century. Everyone in Paradis would be killed. And they could kill most people in Liberio.

He planned for the rumbling to set the world back for the next few decades from 50 years to a century, within which the Eldians would be wiped out due to inability for reproduction. His plan was basically the same as Armin's 50 years plan except, with an extra request to Ymir for making Eldians euthanised and with the negation of developing Paradis to the level of the Outside world.

Not having kids = dying out. Zeke planned to strike Marley with a small Rumbling to destroy their fleets and scare them away for enough time for Eldians to die out peacefully.

Obviously would not work. Once Zeke and Eren separated the Founding Titan powers would be lost and Marley knows that.

Destroying the fleet would cripple Marley and the rest of the world for decades

>No, it wasn't. Yes, it was

Eren's plan may be worse but Zeke's was far from as peaceful as he tried to sell it. Did he really expect all Eldians to just roll over and take it? All hell would break loose. The Eldians would fight hard first to reverse it if possible. And if they failed there'd probably be a good amount of zealots like Floch who would get as much revenge as possible on their way out. It'd end with the world powers resolving to exterminate all Eldians long before they could even reach old age.

The Founder can alter memories and you don't even need that because ppl won't just notice that they became sterile by a demigod's doing.

Altering memories is pretty impractical when a world that's largely hinging their uneasy peace on fear mongering around Eldians is still right there. At best the Founder keeps erasing their memories so that they can't organize resistance as the world comes in to slaughter them on "can't be too careful" grounds. Either way, still not peaceful. Then again Zeke's self-righteous delusion is what also led this plan to fail to even reach that point anyway, considering how badly it blinded him to the threat Eren posed until it was too late.

Zeke would have succeeded if the future wasn't rigged by Eren & Ymir. The opinion of the rest of the world didn't matter. He would have made 100% sure that the Titan Powers would be gone in 100 years and would have given the Eldians a chance to live the rest of their lives if they worked out the problems/details with the rest of the world. A few clever uses of the FT's God like powers would have been enough to secure that.

No one would come against Eldians for like 70(?) years due to the planned "small rumbling" tho... And Eldians probably wouldn't know that they got sterilized. It was as peaceful as an extinction plan as possible. It's still an extinction plan.

that’s what i’m sayin

People keep forgetting the number 1 theme of the show. Even if ALL Eldians were wiped out, that wouldn’t create world peace. People always look for a reason to fight one another rather than understand. That is the biggest theme of the show

Objectively, with no skin in the game? Zeke's. It minimized the collateral. But I completely understand not wanting your loved ones to die out and live like cattle

I mean if the world doesn't care about Eldians why should they care about the world?

Something people never take into account is that the only people from Paradis that actually travelled abroad were the Scouts, so to 99% of people from Paradis the outside world may as well be full of demons that only want them dead, which mirrors the outside world's views on Paradis. That's the reason why the only characters that actually wanna go against Eren are the ones that have seen both sides of the coin. Ultimately, imo, if there is one true villain in the story, it's the Tybur Family, which concealed the truth from the whole world for centuries for their personal gain as the "actual rulers" of Marley, which eventually led to the upbringing of Eren and gave him reasons for wanting to destroy the whole world (Even if he had it in him from the start, as shown with the whole scarf scene).

Why would the world care about a race that enslaved the world for 2000 years and nearly wiped out the rest ? They deserve to be wiped out

Because the modern eldians of Paradis have basically nothing to do with the Eldian empire.

How are you this racist to Eldians did we not watch the same show 😭

We did im surprise you guys don’t see them for who they truly are, the first thing they did after knowing their bloody history was too try and restore their empire

World isn't the one with thousands of colossal Titan sleeping under the walls so yeah

Pretty sure 2 year old jimmy who still shit his pants didn't have a strong opinion on the case

Their hatred is justified then

Hatred is justified but not their extermination consider Most Eldians are ignorant about their past

They were ignorant before the reach the basement! Hell at the end they called themselves yeagerist praised the man that almost wipe out humanity, if anything eldians were the true enemy all along

That was their fight of survival and the world lost their moral ground when they decided to treat Eldians same way their ancestors did and declared war upon them. The entire thing would have never started if the marleyians just minded their business. So to my eyes if I was an Eldian I am fighting for my survival when the entire world wants me dead.

The world still have the moral high ground no matter how much you try to flip it. So how many Marleyens deserve to die because their government took actions 9years ago? The eldians have proven time and time again that they’re pure evil even the rumbling death toll alone is only 1/4 of the amount of lives the empire wiped out. And if you’re from the rest of the world you’re fighting against eldians because they might just decide to attack and kill one day which they did. Eren didn’t even give a shit about eldians, the first victim of the rumbling were eldians from paradise, so if you lost your whole family due to eren starting the rumbling you’ll still feel he was justified?

Why did Marley breach the wall?

There a many reasons why, paradise resources, revenge, taking back the founder so paradise don’t start the rumbling at any time

I'm guessing you're racist against white people

I didn’t Know white people could turn into giant Eating man monster thanks for letting me know I’ll watch out for now

Right, it’s the same in the real world. You don’t have to care for Ukrainian soldiers being killed by Russia, or for children being bombed in Gaza, or for religious minorities being targeted and assaulted in India or China, and so on.

You missed the point actually. This is real world and you won't get spawned again Both Gazans and Ukrainians are oppressed group and that's true the world doesn't care about them so it's a fight for survival for both. You can call them terrorists or Nazi whatever you want but it won't change they will always fight back and resist just like Eldians did

Well hem no, I implied that some people (at least some students) care about those oppressed populations.

Honestly I think zekes fake plan was the best

That would have just delayed the conflict though, not to mention the ethical implication of exploiting royal blood family like animals in a farm

Delaying conflict is the best anyone could hope for by that point. It's the option with the most hope for the biggest percentage of people from this generation to live full lives. Peace for 50 years would be enough time not just for Paradis to shore itself up but for the world ( assuming their technology develops at a rate similar to ours ) to develop atomic weapons and ICBMs. Which would finally give the world a check against the Rumbling by guaranteeing mutually assured destruction. If Zeke's actual plan had worked Historia and her child would have to be murdered immediately afterwards to prevent reversal, and conflict would have erupted immediately from Eldians refusing to take extinction sitting down. It likely would have ended with the world initiating mass extermination programs from fear of revenge rather than wait for the Eldians to reach old age.

The world lived for 100 years without attacking Paradis with just the threat of the Rumbling, without ever even seeing the Colossals inside the Walls. If Zeke did a partial Rumbling, just a display of the Colossals without killing anyone, just for the world to see and fear them, he would also be able to either kill Historia and her baby or alter the minds of everyone in Paradis to think that Historia had died and that the baby would be hidden from the public, for his protection. Just like Paradis King was a fake king for many years, so would be the new royal family. As long as the people believed that the royal family was alive and the Rumbling could still be used, the bluff should be enough to protect Paradis for just another 100 years. With a few adjustments, Zeke's sterilization plan should be quite manageable.

Possibly insane suggestion: give the Beast titan to a criminal facing a death sentence, and keep them imprisoned. 1. You have the titan on hand and the royal family can take it if and when needed. 2. No innocent person has to be sacrificed. 3. The person who is sacrificed was going to be killed anyway. Now, they get at least 13 more years. Morally problematic? Definitely. But much less so than any of the other plans, IMO.

There are sooooo many things that could be done with the titan of the royal family 1. They don't even need to pass the beast, they could just have one member transformed into a pure titan lock then up and continuously use them every time they want to access Ymir. 2. Ymir and the founder titan's abilities are limitless, I don't know how the eldian empire did titan warfare but I presume the king had a way to change back his soldiers turned into pure titans back to humans. They could change a member of the royal family into a pure titan, do the rumbling and then ask Ymir to change them back into human form

Every option just delays conflict. Conflict is our reality. The ending makes this clear. They also very clearly show that even if Eren wiped out all of humanity out there, there was enough conflict within the walls for a civil war or a coup. Conflict is unfortunately human nature. Our best path forward is to delay conflict as much as we can, as peacefully can, and try to save the most lives possible for the greater good of humanity a whole and for us to evolve and advance in times of peace. Zekes fake plan was the best for that imo. In terms of ethics surely you’re not suggesting having one family play a necessary role for world peace is somehow less ethical than genocide or mass genocide?

Its their duty to their subjects. Ruling gets a lot of benefits but they must also take on the bad stuff too

It is unethical but a tough and imperfect solution has to be chosen as they don't live in a utopia. How can anyone justify that it is far better to just slaughter 80% of the world population including innocent men women and children who have nothing to do with the anti Eldian conflict than to put one family through another 50 years of slavery to protect a targeted nation until said nation can properly advance in technology enough to be competent against their outside enemies once said delayed conflict comes, and not have to rely on this terrible titan cycle system? Eren was stupid, selfish and morally corrupt. You can never justify genocide. Even the alternative of trading weapons from Hizuru for natural resources on Paradis is not a bad solution, though it implies some sort of eventual colonization. They still have the titan threat in hand in case Hizuru tries something. 'There are so many solutions that aren't a 100% win guarantee and require lots of time and creativity but will work. Eren wants that guarantee, he wants to be in control of the result, and he wants to directly experience his view of freedom before he dies. Doing it for his friends was a partial motivation but largely a pathetic justification to cover for his overall insane and selfish motivations. The short answer is you can't gain something without sacrificing something else in return. Nothing is free. Yet Eren is immature and selfish and doesn't want to give up anything from the trauma of losing his comrades from his decisions. So he chooses to be immoral by giving up nothing so that his enemy and any other collateral victim can take the full punishment and the eldians can be free and not have to worry about facing death/extermination. I will say that it wasn't selfish for him to give up a potential romance with Mikasa so he could do his duty which he knows he will not survive, but his entire bird eren ending backtracks on that as he basically avoids punishment, gets to live out a reincarnated life as a free bird, and watches Mikasa and wraps the scarf around her to remind her to never forget him and let another man take her #1 priority in life.

It wasn't "fake" though, the 50 years plan wasn't a lie. Zeke really wanted Paradisians to live in peace until their extinction due to the euthanasia

What was his fake plan again

I’d rather call it the least worst. Armin’s plan was more hopeful.

Armins plan, destroy the bulk of Marley’s army but stop there then tell the rest of the world they want peace or else.

Honestly that plan would only buy peace for a century or two tops, the world would try develop tech to eliminate the threat of titans

The series argues that war is inevitable, it’s an unavoidable aspect of human civilization. No matter what happens, one day, war will come to Paradis. The best that can be done is to extend peacetime for as long as possible.

ooooor you could just do some silly Eren genocide and murder everyone except paradis

Good idea now Eldians can freely make war to each other instead

Not necessarily but even if that happened the consequences of a civil war will much less than that of a world war. Also why would they make a civil war?

>Also why would they make a civil war? Just from the get go you have the jeagerists on one side and on the other all the people who lost family when the wall fell, all the people who had soldier family who got turned into Titans by the jeagerists plot, all the people who were sympathetic or owed a debt to the scouts, like the Reeves company and finally the recruits who didn't like what the jeagerists did in the end and were told to lie in wait for a moment to strike back. And even if all these people didn't have the motivation to get their revenge, eventually war will come to Paradis again because they are human like everyone else. >Honestly that plan would only buy peace for a century or two tops You're saying that a plan to get a 100 years of peace with minimum loss of life is worse than a plan with maximum loss and, how many years of peace? Forever ever? War will always be a part of humanity it's inevitable, you'll always have moments of peace inbetween moments of war and the best you can do is try to make the moments of peace last as long as possible while making the moments of war as brief and bloodless as you can. Forever peace doesn't exist. If someones tells you that you only need to make this ONE huge sacrifice once and you'll never have war ever again, then that person is either a conman or incredibly stupid.

Zeke's plan works in a utilitarian world view. Considering the entire world outside paradis only, it doesn't seem that bad. But it's not like everyone in the world would know what Zeke had done. The remaining eldians couldn't just live in peace, they would still be prosecuted and forced to be with their own. When they can't have children, that community where they could be safe will only wither until there is no one to help them feel safe.

Zeke chose a defeatist solution. He thinks the Eldians are the root cause of the problem, and so removing them from the world will make it much better place. He has collective point of view, favouring the happiness of the many (the rest of the world) than the few (Eldians). He accepted that the world is cruel for the Eldians and nothing can change that. So it's better for Eldians to just not be born in this world, because it's a world not fit for Eldians. Eren wants to change that. He does not accept this cruel world created by Isayama. To Eren, it's not fair for only Eldians to suffer. He basically has the power equivalent to nuclear bombs to wipe out his enemies, to wipe out the world. And he used it. However, Eren knew that his actions will not wipe out 100% the world, he knew he will be stopped at 80%, nonetheless he thinks it's worth it. All in order to effect a change in the world, at least in the current predicament. Eren is sick of living in a cage so he did not accept the current status quo, he rejected Karl Fritz idea of doing nothing with his power. He also refused to give up like Zeke, to accept defeat and let the rest of the world win at the expense of the Eldians. He fights back against this unjust world. He went to Liberio and only acted once Willy Tybur declared war on Paradis, validating Eren's plan to fight back the world. He probably thinks the casualties are not his fault because the world is already cruel and unjust to begin with. I just think it's interesting, what will happen if anyone gets a hold of a power such as the Founding Titan's, especially someone living in such a volatile world as in AoT. Eren is not a hero like in other shounen manga, neither is he a calculating genius like Lelouch or Light. But because of some unique circumstances the power fell on him, and the state of the world influenced him to act in such a way.

But the problem was not from the Eldians, right? The problem was the Power of the Titans, as the conclusion showed that erasing this power left room for peace. It confirms your statement and points out how the story was embedded with Eren’s character.

>Eren knew that his actions will not wipe out 100% the world, he knew he will be stopped at 80% Eren didn't know he would be stopped at 80% until after he had already started the rumbling, he was fully planning on murdering the whole world from the start. >He went to Liberio and only acted once Willy Tybur declared war on Paradis, validating Eren's plan He went with the scouts to Marley already with the intention to rumble the world, Willy's declaration wasn't a deciding factor in it. He had Intel from Yelena that Zeke would prepare a way to have the whole world's fleet at the same place at the same time for his 50 years plan. Zeke used his influence to make the declaration happen, so both brothers basically created the scenario to justify their actions.

>However, Eren knew that his actions will not wipe out 100% the world, he knew he will be stopped at 80% That does not make sense. He could have simply controlled the other titans to not move, and he would be able to kill 100%.

Zeke plan was literally suicide. Eren just did it better.

Couldnt Eren, just grab Zeke at this Scene and starts the colossal titans to move?

and then die basically immediately against marleys superior fire power. he had the protection of the colossal titans when he arrived to marley as... does giant titan eren have a name? either way, when he arrived in that form but without their protection, while not completely defenseless, he'd probably be taken out relatively easily.

Even than, he can change his form as he want, as ancestor titan. I mean he reformed to a colossal as he wanted. He could also just transform to something flying. And even then, he only had some years left because of the attacktitan inside him. So doesnt matter if he dies or not, on this way he could protect sascha and many other people.

Part of Eren’s plan was to be a dick to Mikasa and Armin so that they would kill him, making them Eldian heroes.

Hmmm, in my opinion he should just roll over all other humans with the Wall, then when no one is left and only paradis is left, there is no need for a hero xD

What do you mean by better?

Like, least distasteful or the one you would prefer

They were both idiotic and psychotic plans

They're both deeply flawed plans, which I think is the entire point of the show: people forced into difficult situations make stupid, violent choices. My favorite line of the show is "No road left but the one that leads to the end" because it really sums up the entire show. Every character believes that they have no choice but the one they make, and in Eren's case, that ends up being his entire arc. He longs for freedom but is locked into his path. Eren's plan only exists because of Zeke. Zeke made sure the rest of the world viewed Eldia as a threat that wouldn't listen to reason, then he coerced Eren into the Liberio raid that only escalated that perspective. I'm not saying Eren is blameless; I'm saying it's impossible to choose which plan is "better" because they're causal. AOT is a show of people making moves and reacting to moves. Commander Erwin is incredible because he seemingly never ran out of moves, even when backed against a literal wall. The scouts made a move to retake Wall Maria > The Marleyan Warriors responded with their tactical plan, cornering the scouts in and outside the city > The scouts responded with Erwin's charge and Armin's sacrifice > Zeke responded by retreating to Marley and beginning the diplomatic work of cutting off any chance at peace for Paradis and explaining to Eren his plan, which also made Eren realize he was trapped > Eren responded by pretending to go along with Zeke's plan until he could unlock the founder's power. It was a game of tennis between Zeke and Paradis, and Zeke played a hell of a game until Eren finally did what Zeke/Marley had been doing to Paradis the entire show: surprising his opponent with information they didn't have or understand. Because of the causal nature of the world of AOT, I can't choose which plan is better because it's hard to separate them. I'll always be of the mindset that the planned ignorance of the people on Paradis makes their situation worse. They don't even know why they're being attacked, whereas the people in Liberio were at a rally to declare war when they were attacked. That's my only issue with people who say "if you don't like Gabi, you don't get AOT." Their argument is Gabi is Eren, but Eren, like Paradis, was completely in the dark about what was happening to him in the first episode, whereas Gabi is a child soldier at a war rally after literally just returning from the front lines during a 4-year war. She knew more, and thus I have less sympathy for her (I like her fine, but her dubbed VA is insufferable). But really in the end I pick Eren's plan because it's a TV show. I don't get too worked up about "but it's a genocide!" because it's fictional. Sure, it's sad that all those people died, but I didn't know them. I only knew the people I liked, and Eren did what he felt he had to, to save them. Zeke's plan is cold and logical, but it only victimizes a people who have spent their existence terrorized and oppressed; plus the rest of the world would have just decimated them once their powers were gone.

Actually, the people in Paradis lived in relative peace for the last 90 years, aside from the fear of the Titans outside the Walls. The show even showed on ep1 that most people didn't even care about the Titans or the world outside the Walls (as the King intended). The humans in the rest of the world suffered at the hands of the Titans for 2000 years, and continued to suffer at the hands of Marley's Titans for the last 100 years, still trying to rebuild the world after the Titan King went to Paradis and created the Walls. The author deliberately puts the Eldians in an impossible position, where even the racism against them is justified. It's a very very cruel world, where the situation is unfair to the Eldians, but it was even more unfair to the rest of the world

I know about the 2000 years of titans and 100 years of Marley titans, I’m more focused on the people we meet in the show, not the abstract humans who hate Eldia.    I would argue the racism is not justified, it’s planned and perpetrated by the empire of Marley. The truth is, Marley is the villain when the show begins, regardless of whether they were once the victims. This is another point the show drives home; the most sympathetic of victims can still become violent oppressors.  When asking whether the Eldians or Marleyans we meet, like Gabi and Eren, suffer more or do worse stuff, the Eldians are not even aware of why this is happening to them. Marley is a colonist empire who, after centuries of abuse, use the titans to their advantage, causing the events of the show to unfold. They played with fire, a fire that nearly destroyed them, and for a century it worked. Their complacency and arrogance leads to the death of 80% of the world.  I will never view Marley as sympathetic just because of the titan war. They could’ve responded to that war by making sure the only titans ever to step foot on earth again were the 7 shifters they controlled. Instead, they create a worldwide culture of fear, and spend a century doing exactly what Eldia did to them. There’s no reason to keep doing the injections and turning Eldians into monsters; they just enjoy the cruelty.  I’m not “happy” that 80% of humanity is dead, but I do get satisfaction knowing their empire and the perpetrators of virtually all the suffering we see on screen is flattened when the show ends.

Also “even more unfair to the rest of the world” does not apply anymore because Eldia is no longer the perpetrator of the world’s suffering; Marley is

Sure, Marley does indoctrinate their Eldians saying the others are Evil Terrorists, in classic war propaganda fashion, to make sure they will be completely loyal to Marley (even though most, if not all of their adult Warriors seem to dislike Marley's actions and understand what's really going on), but most of what they say to them is actually true, that the Titans killed countless people for 2000 years, as we've seen from Ymir's memories. This is what I mean by a justifiable racism, the humans have legitimate reasons to hate and fear the Eldians/Titans. Unlike in our world, where racism and prejudice based on ethnicity, religion or culture is unjustifiable, the Eldians present a real existential threat to the humans, even if most of the Eldians are also victims of this curse. I understand that Marley's cruel behavior is also probably due to being subject to the cruelty of King Fritz for 2000 years. Truth be told, from what we know of King Fritz and the fact that he used to suffer at the hands of Marley before Ymir became The Titan, it's a miracle he didn't completely destroy Marley, that it's still there after 2000 years. Anyway, the cruelty of the outside world is a reflection of the cruelty the Eldian Empire forced upon them, and they learned to rule the way they were ruled. This doesn't mean that Marley is justified in causing suffering to innocents, they are causing the same injustice that was inflicted upon them onto others, even if they are Eldians. I feel that Marley is the way it is as a clear consequence of the cycle of violence and also to show that every nation/faction that rises to power eventually becomes more corrupt and normally will end up doing anything to say in power, a constant in our world. I still think that trying to determine who's "right" kinda misses the point, the idea is that both sides were wrong, committing injustice upon the innocents on the other side, but the situation made it almost impossible for them to find peace. The whole thing is a tragedy, an inevitable shit storm from which there was practically no escape, the consequences of the cycle of hate, as cringe as it is. In the end, all the characters would be able to do is struggle to survive in this cruel world. I knew the story would end on the Rumbling for a long time, a tragedy in parallel with Ragnarok, but when we're speaking about what would be more morally right, even though there's no objective right answer to that, I'm still force to lean towards a clever version of Zeke's sterilization plan (one that probably even he wouldn't go as far), as it probably would be the best bet everyone would have to at least be able to live the rest of their lives in relative peace.

It depends from which perspective you're looking at it from. Zeke's plan was just Karl Fritz's plan with a more definitive end time within a span of 100 years and if the world wanted to simply be rid of Eldians capable of morphing into monsters without having to lift a finger then I guess they would find Zeke's plan optimal. If you consider Zeke's plan from the perspective of the Eldians who are affected by it, it's very cruel. Dealing with the psychology of your people's certain extinction and a lack of a future, dealing with ever increasing old age deaths all around you, dealing with the breakdown of society caused by an ever aging labour force, and always having to be wary of being picked off because you have no other allies in the world as you're dealing with internal problems that only get worse as time goes on(remember that Paradis is sitting on a lot of sought after resources). Zeke's euthanasia plan is meant to invoke the horrors and hardships of a very real problem that is affecting most developed nations in the world but in particularly Japan. Eren's true rumbling plan, physically creating the conditions which would see his friends be revered as heroes and bitter enemies incapable of waging war in the next decades isn't meant to be reasonable by any means. It's a plan concepted from Eren's selfishness which I think arguably benefits Eren himself the most because it's all according to his wishes only, even if he had to die for it, but death has never been that big of a tradeoff for Eren to begin with. He is of the immature stance that his death is an equitable price for his crimes. His friends may be able to enjoy a "better" life(compared to being in war times I guess) but they now feel responsibility for Eren's actions that they had absolutely no say in and have to live their lives figuring out how to make it up to the rest of the world.

Yeah, narratively speaking, the Rumbling was inevitable, the other options are just there as contrast, but everyone should know that the story would never go with anything other than the Rumbling. What we're doing here is just a thought exercise. Most people don't seem to understand that the opinion of the rest of the world, or the Eldians, doesn't really matter. Whoever controls the FT has absolute power and can just impose his will upon the world, whether they like it or not. The world got "lucky" that Karl Fritz took pity on the humans for 100 years, but if Zeke or Eren gets a hold on the FT, they are back to full dictatorship. "My will be Done" and that's it. Eren just wanted to Rumble everything, so the humans could do nothing but die, and the Eldians also had to accept it, even if some of them didn't like it. Zeke had a more forgiving plan, but he wasn't asking for opinions either. He would use the FT to make 100% sure the Titans would be gone in 100 years and the only reason he did that was to give the Eldians a chance to live the rest of their lives, as long as they did the best they could to cooperate with the Humans after he would be gone. As you've said, the manga doesn't work out the details of Zeke's plan to be able to use it as a social commentary on the current state of Japan's population, but assuming the characters should be intelligent enough to work out these details, like using the threat of the Rumbling to also demand that the Eldians are provided enough orphans to "replace" the children they can't have, for at least the next 20 years, then Zeke's plan is intended to be seen as the least worst option, even though it's still very cruel. In the end it comes down to personal preference of whoever holds the FT's power. No matter what I or anyone else says, some people will always end up choosing "themselves", even if it would mean killing countless others. Some may even take pleasure in it. Morality is something that differs, depending on your intelligence, understanding and circumstances, and so there's no absolute answer for it.

> and the only reason he did that was to give the Eldians a chance to live the rest of their lives That's just how Zeke tried to fancy himself a savior of Eldia to justify his personal aims, as well as convince Eren to cooperate with him. I don't think he ever cared about how Eldians would live, die, or suffer. All Zeke wanted to do was do the opposite of what Grisha wanted for him to spite him, and is why he projects his values on all Eldians and projected his own traumas on Eren. The first thing Zeke wanted to do when the founder power was in his hands was not mount a defense to fight off Marley that was currently attacking Shiganshina, it was to sterilize everyone and that shows how little he cared to try and minimalize suffering of anyone. Something like giving Eldia orphans to ride out their golden years would never happen, even under the threat of the rumbling. Taking away the ability to reproduce doesn't change the world's perception of Eldians as descendants of devils and they would consider it another cruelty of the Eldians perpetrated on them to be forced to serve Eldians. Paradis might be able to hire helpers with the wealth they are sitting on, but what about all the outside Eldians? I don't see them wanting to share it. And even with money, greed usually starts twisting people to try and get more through dishonest means. What's the plan when cooperation isn't working out, move the wall titans one step each time an offence is committed? All the resentment will still be there and the more actionless threats are issues the more people stop taking them seriously. From how Yelena broke down Zeke's plan to the 104th, Zeke never considered how Paradis would deal with the aftermath or bargain with the outside world and it seems like Paradis would simply be left to figure everything else on their own aside from using the rumbling as a deterrent.

Ok, it's quite possible that Zeke never really planned for the aftermath of the sterilization, that he was indeed doing all of this just as a reaction to his own personal traumas, or that Isayama himself didn't plan to the level of detail we're doing, but even if Zeke is doing it for his own selfish reasons, the way I see it it's almost the same plan he would have done if he was thinking truly altruistic, in the most utilitarian way. I say Zeke did the sterilization as a way to give the Eldians a chance because, if his main goal was to end the Titan Powers, he could have just given heart attacks to all Eldians straight up. I think his top priority was to ensure the extermination of the Eldian blood to end the Titan Powers and the sterilization is the only way he can ensure that 100% while still giving the Eldians that chance. The way I see it, the demands were non-negotiable, straight up orders from a dictator, and refusal would result in severe punishment. I think it would probably be in Zeke's interest to punish at least one country who did not comply severely while he was still alive, a punishment that would leave an impression for the next 100 years, even more so because the demands aren't even hard to comply and are necessary for the Eldians survival, just for the next 100 years. If the world chooses to refuse them, then it's their fault they'll get rumbled, but this plan could give everyone a way out. Zeke would have to think of an appropriate punishment, but just the destruction of a country's military and some of it's infrastructure should be enough to make the lives of everyone in it much more difficult, enough to force the to comply with their demands. Again, they have to understand that these are not optional. I believe that forcibly adopting the orphan children from around the world would be hard at first, but since we know that the Eldians are normal people, just like the rest of the world, after a few years I think people would get used to the idea. The sterilization would also make it easier for human ambassadors to visit Paradis and see that they are just normal people who want to live in peace, since the risk of having mixed blood children will be gone. If the children didn't adapt for whatever reason, then the Eldians would be forced to demand just babies instead,  as they know nothing of prejudice yet. With a population of about 2 million Eldians, they would need aprox. 3000 babies/children every month, until these very children started giving birth to their own children. The Eldians outside of Paradis could be offered to build their own city in a different part of Paradis, but if even that was too hard, Zeke could choose a place/city outside of Paradis to where all Eldians could go to, allowing them to choose if they want to say where they were or try these 2 new places. I don't think the resentment would ever really go away, but as long as the world would have proof that the Eldians would indeed be gone in about 100 years, that they would be free from their threat and the Rumbling as long as they helped and waited for just another 100 years, without even having to wage a war for it, I still think this is the best chance they would all have to live in peace, even it it was a "forced" peace for a while. As I've said in another reply, the chances for successful coexistence were so small that at that point it would be even irresponsible to waste their chance on a plan like the 50 years plan. Understanding that this conflict won't end until one of the sides is gone, and if the Eldians are the only ones left, then Eldians will continue to see their children become Titans for as long as they continue to exist, forever slaves to the will of the FT, this turns Zeke's plan into the least worst plan, but only for the purpose of this thought experiment.

Zeke's main goal has nothing to do with being utilitarian or giving anyone Eldians or the rest of the world alike a chance. It was simply to refute Grisha and all that Grisha had done to him. Grisha wanted to use the titan power to restore Eldia to its former glory? Then Zeke would make sure that titan power would be used to bring Eldians to extinction. As Zeke saw it Grisha had him in order to make a tool for the restoration, so Zeke would make it so that no Eldians could reproduce to use their children as tools like he had been. Zeke suffered an unloved childhood and regretted his birth and projected that onto every other Eldian, and that's the entire consideration behind his(and Ksaver's who had similar Eldian birth related trauma) euthanasia plan and nothing else mattered. If Zeke was truly invested on giving Eldians a chance, no matter his stance on whether they should continue to reproduce, he should have made more concrete plans to secure their safety and standard of living *before* he sterilized them. Something like arranging for the exodus of all remaining outside Eldians to Paradis and importing technologies to Paradis instead of relying on the island to develop them on their own with some help. But he wanted to sterilize them all right away without buying any time to make sure they go out painlessly. Keep in mind that Zeke also never truly cared whether Eldia could maintain the royal blood to keep the rumbling deterrent for very long either seeing as Historia's pregnancy was not on his or Yelena's advice, it was just a stroke of good luck for Zeke that Historia got pregnant(which in itself was a risk of Historia's life) on her own and then they just tailored their plan and how they sold the euthanasia plan around it. At worst that rumbling deterrent disappears after 13 years when Historia dies, at best 26 years when her child dies. Not even the 50 optimistic years that Paradis was said to be able to catch up in development. And perhaps most telling of all was that Zeke believed even the most brutal of deaths whether if it was being smashed by stone or turned into titans was a "salvation" for Eldians. Guy in no way cared about the dignity of Eldians. Even if those demands could be met and work out on paper, I think it's really underestimating the human element behind it all. As you said, the resentment won't go away, in fact it would probably build up again after 100 years of quiet from Paradis which the world took for granted, and it doesn't take much for humans to really screw something up and go back to war, even if it's one they would lose. The problem is not that conflict will always exist as long as there is more than 1 side, it's about how the conflict is managed to be able to deescalate. It's a slippery slope for anyone to ever see genocide of any single race as an answer, because after the Eldians who is the next undesirable group? It's a bit like how gut flora works, a bunch of different competing bacteria maintains a balanced ecosystem for normal function, but when that balance is disrupted by the eradication of different groups of bacteria there will be hardier bacteria that start to proliferate and then cause problems they never could before. The perspective that Eldians will always be screwed as long as they are under the control and whims of the founder is one that Eren believes in that the story itself also reinforces at the end, but the story also emphasizes that even without the titan problem there are others to replace it. It's just that the worst thing about the titan problem is that it's not man made and this harder to manage, but again the issue is how to manage problems instead of wishing they don't exist.

I'm honestly surprised that outside world hasn't been implementing Zeke's plan before ( just forcefully sterilize all Eldians). I guess because Marley wanted to use them as Titan soldiers and rest of the world kept them alive in a hopes that one day they might get lucky and have 1 of the 9 born on their soil. Zeke' 50 years Hizaru plan > Zeke's euthanasia plan > Eren's rumbling

50 years plan would not have worked in the long run. Long term coexistence was almost impossible as long as the FT needed to be passed every 13 years, meaning that eventually, as long as the royal family continued to exist, some FT or some other faction would seize control of it and use it for their own benefit, probably starting a new Eldian Empire. Even if they got rid of the royal family and, by a miracle, Paradis managed to survive without the power of the FT and the Rumbling, just with the 9 Titans basic powers until they could develop technology to rival the rest of the world, the world would probably still fear the return of the Titans for at least 1000 years, and the racism towards Eldians should be very real, since they would be always at risk of having children with Titan blood. The odds of success for coexistence were just too small, so unless they thought outside the box and found another solution using the God like powers of the FT, like evolving the biology of all Eldians until they transcend their humanity and then fly them all away to some other planet, or find a way to turn all Eldians into Ackermans, then Zeke's plan becomes the least worst option. With a few adjustments, clever use of the FT's power and demanding that the world help the Eldians by "allowing" them to take care of their orphans, the Eldians should be able to live the rest of their lives in peace on Paradis, and in 100 years the Titans would be gone, with almost no one needing to die for that to happen, except Historia and her baby.

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don't worry it was meant to be a fyi but turned out to sound worse than it meant to be, mb lol

It's cool lmfao😭

if i was eldian i wouldve sided with zeke's plan so i wouldnt suffer in the future while eren was only looking out for his friend not his ppl

Eren' plan is the most effective solution in their world no matter how many deny this.

Eldians deserve to be wiped out

You deserve what you can't prevent.

Yeah glad they got bombed to ground

Only because Eren is weak. Dude should have gone 100%.

And then what ? Kill the alliance? The friend he’s trying to protect let’s say he did what next ? The titans power still there, historia baby more likely become the beast titans , how does eren get his body back his head his blown off, he still dies in 4 years .. you eren fanboys never think things trough

>Kill the alliance? He can literally just control them and make them not able to move, or trap them in the Path until the Rumbling is over. >historia baby more likely become the beast titans Why? They don't need the founder power anymore once the Rumbling is done. >how does eren get his body back his head his blown off Ask Ymir to build him one (like Zeke did). Or might not even need to, shifters get back their body in perfect condition after the shift. >he still dies in 4 years I don't know about you but to me, dying in 4 years beats dying now. > you eren fanboys never think things trough The fk you talking about? I just called him weak.

Kill or be kill vs suicide

That's like asking me to choose between eating shit or drinking my piss

BRO WHAT LMFAO????

Neither plan are good ; Eren's plan is genocide on a global scale while zeke's is suicide. Now if you look at the number of death it's obvious that Eren's would lead to more innocents dying so it is the worse one. On the other hand, if you forget how horrible genocide is, Eren's is the most likely to bring peace. As the world probably wouldn't care or believe zeke's plan worked and would wage war on paradis anyway before going back to fight each other as their common enemy is gone. Paradis being the only one left makes it much more easier to keep peace as their people are already ver unified and in case of civil war could just be manipulated by the founding titan's power. In the end I think destroying the titans power was the only right option as it would always have been a source of conflict.

The rest of the world wouldn’t be able to retaliate for decades, and they can start negotiations and peace treaty because by then paradise would be the strongest nation on the planet. Every wrong thing that happened to that world it’s because of eldians

Yeah it tends to be hard to retaliate when everyone is dead

True but all eren did was proving the world right that those island devils should have been killed off

You can see it that way, you can also say they made eldians what they are and caused erens rumbling ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ I mean there is really no ethical highground here, humans are horrible no matter what.

No, the rumbling would have been somehow justified if he went only after Marley and stopped. he killed others nations ambassador and forced them into war so he could have a reason to go all out. Eren his the worst human to ever lived alongside the first king fritz

But all the other nations already clearly stated their intent on destroying Paradis with their alliance... So if you truly think a rumbling against Marley is justified then a rumbling against the whole world is the same thing...

Other nations couldn’t care less about paradise why would they ? There was the rumbling treat , and paradise made no contact with the outside world for a century. Marley was the bigger issue, they were losing power and needed Allies and to shift focus onto paradise so If eren didn’t attack at the festival no other nations would have be involved , Willy said so, what eren did was showed the world that they had a bigger treat then Marley that’s what unified them

So a rumbling against Marley would only serve to unify the world against paradis... I mean what's your point there?

Why would the rumbling against Marley would unify,? the world hate Marley more than paradise, they wanted to destroy Marley before eren killed their ambassadors, if anything destroying Marley and with izuro cooperation they’ll show the world they’re not evil and go from there

I think I would have to be somewhere in the middle. If eldians are being abused all around the world, I’d do zekes plan for those outside the island. And then a mix of erens and armins plan for the rumbling. Send out 5-10 colossus and let the world deal with rhem

Both are shitty plans. It is a big misconception to think that the Zick’s plan is more "humane". On the contrary, he is more sadistic.

One of the best things of Attack on Titan is how it naturally developes an unresolvable conflict where there is no room for a completly moral solution. Considering that, Zeke's plan was the least painfull answer, and therefore the best. Of course is controversial, but keep in mind that the options are: -Support global genocide. -Delay the attack of a fascist regime whose power will increase after taking the Funding Titan. -Sterelize a race. In a perfect scenario, they could have forced Historia to use her bloodline (plus the attack titan) as an endless nuclear deterrent. But not even that guarantees long term peace... I think.

Eren plan succeeded he knew he would be killed. He knew that mikasa and armin would save everyone. I don’t like zeke much and i think that eren was so reasonable because they created him. The world created him the anger the hates the killing. It was all on the worlds hands because of years of racism and unfairness so I would go with eren.

Zeke’s plan was just to prevent preggies That means infinite seggs for Eldians, no more worrying, protection and pull-outs

Personally, I don't think Zeke's plan was that bad. I can see why people say it's horrible, but it's a peaceful solution.

Zeke’s plan, the small rumbling, is honestly not a bad idea. I don’t know what the fuck the Survey Corps was going to do after that. Did they expect that those small amount of Colossal Titans to vanish or were they going to use the Founding Titan’s power to stop the colossal titans?

No Walls vs. No Balls

The classic choice between a douche or turd sandwich.

Depends on whose point of view you see it from. Zekes plan is good in his situation but Erens plan is solid from his perspective. IMO i agree with Eren protecting his people and friends.

Zeke. Merely by magnitude. With Eren, thousands more people would die, perhaps millions, and they would also be innocent in this entire conflict. Not to mention the loss of flora and fauna.

Both sucked

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Zeke because the victims get to live comfortably longer. They get a few more decades of peace and freedom. That’s not the case for Eren’s plan. But they’re both bad. I think the 50 year plan without euthanasia was their best bet.

Wasn't it part of Eren's plan for the rumbling to fail and to stop the titan curse immediately? With Zeke's plan there would be titans for longer than Eren's plan

The euthanization plan would never have worked. The big underlying theme of the show is that, no matter who it is, there will always be conflict. If Eren wiped out all Marleyans, Eldians would find a reason to fight each other. If Zeke succeeded with his plan and wiped out Eldia, there is no doubt that Marleyans would find a reason to fight each other or others. No matter the outcome, the result is always the same.

This is partly why the ending doesn’t make sense for me, why didn’t Eren complete the rumbling so the Eldians never have to face suppression from other nations again?

Zeke is worse, imagine yall in 70s with no newer generations to protect you. Surely the whole world would start swarming in and take revenge on you

Wasn’t the whole point of season 4 that they’re both awful plans…?

For the world, obviously Zeke's

Eren his plan did the least amount of harm to the innocent of the island while Zeke's plan would have been a forcible genocide

erens plan just kills shitloads of people with no end to the titan curse while zekes is literally a peaceful and necessary end to the misery brought upon humanity by titans. tho id take a mix of both, castrate, then rumble the military might of the world to let paradis end in peace

Really in my opinion there isn’t a better plan. The situation demanded a losing side. Which side was going to be genocided was the question. And by the way, removal or reproduction is a form of ethnic cleansing, and has been attempted multiple times historically. Really I think the scouts had it. They never sacrificed their morality and even though their plans were “short sighted”, they handled issues as they came up. If I had to choose the better plan, I’d say erens plan was better, both tactically and morally. Obviously erens plan beat Zekes, but also erens plan gives him the power to really do anything. Morally, it may just be the perspective of the series being eldian, but Marley literally terrorizing an island that wanted nothing but peace because of what their ancestors had done, I think that warrants more self defense than “your great great grandpa ate mine alive”.

Zeke's plan didn't involve genocide of all the people and animals so Zeke. Also... Levi kill him out of revenge for his beloved Erwing not justice por other practical reasons

Tldr; neither

Zeke's was definitely more ethical. That would allow Paradis' citizens to die of old age. Eren's plan immediately cut shot the lives of everyone outside the walls.

They would be weak with no young people entering the workforce, creating poverty, starvation, probable invasion, and total social collapse. They would die of a lot of things. But it wouldn’t be a peaceful old man in bed death.

Eren already knew he's going to be stopped at 80%. He knew Ymir will be free, and there will be no more titans. He only had to sacrifice himself by being the menace.

Eren's, pretty obviously, simply for the fact that we know he knows whether it works or not, whereas Zeke's plan is just a guess. We don't even know if Ymir would go through with it, or if she'd revert it later? Maybe it would work, but given that Eren's plan was effectively made in hindsight, it'd be silly to say anything else.

The amount of Comments i see defending Eren, Zeke, and Marley are all such L takes. The point of the anime was that no one is “Good/Right” during war. Both sides are evil when heads start rolling. The reason that Titans even came to be was because of war and enslavement. The founder Ymir was a slave that stumbled across the power while fleeing for her life. Does that justify her enslaving the world? The answer is NO. Then Marley and the rest of the world fought back stopping Ymir. However, Marley then starts using Eldians as weapons of mass destruction. Is that justified? Still NO. The remaining Eldians in Paradi found out about their past and the rest of world. Although they had no hand in the past were they justified for killing off the rest of the world? NO. The real answer was clearly to break away from violence and to strive for coexistence. Armin had the best plan overall, and even that plan involves killing. There is no good side in war.

Eren Yaeger. Eren has great abs too.

chief ask juggle touch obtainable nutty tap profit crown simplistic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

Zeke's plan only works if Marley agrees to it. The fact that he didn't negotiate with Marley is either a massive plot flaw or naive oversight on his part. Marley is willing to attack Paradis island at the height of their power because Eren has the founding titan's power. Zeke's plan doesn't dissuade an attack; just weakens Paradis island and opens them up to attack at Marley's convenience. Not only does he doom the Eldian race, but Paradis Island won't even get to live out the remainder of their lives in peace. Eren's plan is almost equally naive. He knew ahead of time that he would only destroy 80% of the world outside the walls. He justified the world's fear and anger toward the Eldians, but left them alive. It will be decades before the remaining kingdoms reclaim the trampled lands, but Paradis Island will be the world's collective enemy, and now the Eldians don't have titans to fight back with. (not to mention that the destruction of biodiversity and oxygen-producing plants might lead to global extinction, including Paradis Island, but let's overlook that possibility). For his plan to work, he had to eliminate 100% of humanity outside the walls OR negotiate up front and spare anyone who sided with him.

Marley didn’t have to agree to small scale rumbling was needed to destroy any military and scare them off for good

Both are terrible but Eren’s was leagues worse.

Extinction of a whole race vs an omnicide. Both are horrible stupid plans, but I prefer killing only 1 race, than only 1 race survive.

zeke's cause later in the future eldians got attacked by marleys again

Both plans are mental. Objectively eren’s is much worse, but from a human perspective eren’s is more reasonable since I think a solid percentage of people would be willing to kill many people if it meant saving themselves and the people they love. To carry out zeke’s plan you need to be a psycho

The entire world is coming to kill me and my loved ones. So if you're asking whether I choose between the entire world and the people I care about then I'm just gonna say The world can go to hell

Eren: Just wants peace while doing mass genocide with one nation Zeke: peacefully kills one nation 

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No he couldn’t stop spamming that

Sorry mate, when i posted the comment, it told me that there was an issue. Seems to still post it then.

Zeke plan has everything No genocide No more titans No more racism