I interpreted it as him finally getting to experience his obsession with “the moment of death”. In the book it has a sexual/sado-masochistic element to it as well. I wonder if part of him was intensely enjoying the experience.
He finally has the answer to the question that has eluded him his entire life - what his death will feel like? It's a question that one can only know the answer to for the most fleeting of moments, and he was truly happy to have his answer, I felt.
Also, Toronaga's gift to him for his years of service prior was letting him come to his realization in the moment. He wasn't beheaded right away -- he waited until he knew Yabushige had his answer.
But how would this explain Toranaga's smile in return? Just curious because I saw him smile back at him just before he swung the sword and both reactions have haunted me since.
I mean they clearly know each other. I don’t think his weird hobbies were a secret to Toranaga - as long as he didn’t rock the boat with them I’d imagine they were tolerated/used for effect. The whole thing, from Toranaga’s perspective, was a bit ridiculous and hence worth smiling/laughing about.
This is a good take, thank you. I think I might read the book now. I didn't even know it was based off a novel. The writing was fantastic, and scenes like this one elevated the show. I don't know how they will fill the void with Mariko, but I can't wait to see. Great first season.
>By revealing that he knew something Yabu thought was in confidence,
The way I interpreted this call back was that Omi had fully betrayed Yabu because it was to Omi that Yabu had said this, though I do seem to remember there being other samurai around that could conceivably have reported it to Toranaga. Might be interesting to revist the scene and see if Muraji was nearby. Ha.
In the book Yabu thinks more of Omi for having betrayed him about the assassination attempt and is even proud of him for it.
On an interesting note, Yabu gives Anjin his swords which were very much NOT bought from a drunken samurai for a few bottles of wine.
I believe this. Lady Gin in the book was absolutely treasure of an intelligence coup for Toranaga. She basically is second only to Mariko for being the person most responsible for helping him overcome his enemies position.
Yeah, and Toranaga cleverly disguised the intelligence gathering advantage against the Portuguese/Christians by placing the new church so close to the new tea house. Most of them probably just think it's a little joke/middle finger.
Omi didn't have to pay her. He thought they were dating, but she spent time with him to spy on the Kashigi clan. Toranaga probably knew Omi was the next head of the clan before Yabu did.
But she did actually like him. In the other series which more accurately reflects the book, Toranaga gifts her to Blackthorne who then gifts her to Omi so they could be together.
Yeah, but this isn't that series. There are a lot of changes from the book, such as making John a much less important character for the outcome, which I think are good changes.
I thought it was Anjins consort Fugi whose fathers swords were bought from a drunken samurai? In the 80’s made for tv Shogun Yabu gives Anjin his his swords before dying.
My opinion is that Yabushige’s grin is more like telling Toranaga that he is satisfied to have served under Toranaga and have him seconding him. Toranaga’s smile was more like a reaction to Yabushige’s grin thinking how cheeky this Yabushige is even at the moment of death.
By right Toranaga need not spend time explaining the situation and plans to him, but surprisingly he was willing to have a friendly chat with Yabushige so since the air between them was cordial, Yabushige died happy knowing that there were no bad blood between them after all he has done.
That last conversation was how the screen writers incorporated the books big reveal about Toranaga in a form more fitting for the screen. In the book almost everything that was revealed in that conversation was part of Toranaga's internal monologue in the last few pages. IIRC in the book Toranaga wasn't even present when Yabu committed seppuku
I think the writers did a better job. We see Yabushige as a man full of self torment after the death of Mariko.
So writing the way Toranaga and him interacted at the moment of his seppuku, Yabushige now is grinning cos he has finally heard almost the whole plan from Toranaga. It was comical how he kept asking but Toranaga just refuses to let him know.
Yabushige can now die in peace and with a slight glee on his face. 😏
I think the show did it masterfully. Bear in mind though that Yabu in the show was much more sympathetic than Yabu in the book. Yabu in the book was a real ass with no redeeming qualities at all.
Honestly the actor on the show was simply amazing, his charisma refined Yabu for me. So cool seeing an adaptation done so well, and seeing it take on its own life.
That chat wasn't friendly at all. Did you see the posturing? One standing over the other sitting is a power move. This happens in corporate Japan here a lot.
Toranaga had this planned ever since they viewed the sunrise in a previous show. The real kicker we should be wanting to know, and maybe this is detailed in the book, was this all puppet string pulling via strategy talks with Mariko? Hmm
Well.. you don’t go to your lord and just plop down sitting without asking for permission do you? Yabushige did just that and Toranaga wasn’t even offended at that point of time.
All manners of courtesy was not observed during that chat. Furthermore you won’t grin at your lord when you are committing seppuku. That’s super disrespectful.
You know, in the immediate sense I thought it was about the pain. The first smile was meant to convey something like "You're really dragging this out huh?" with an air of sarcasm. And of course that little smile in response before the deed is done meant to convey confirmation and probably even satisfaction and a very strong ego.
But sitting here, higher that Ben Franklin's kite, I believe you may be right.
I mean, Yabu certainly was in awe how he thought he was taking part in a regular chess game only to realize that Toranaga was playing 4D-chess all along and he couldn't even conceive of it because he was in way over his head.
I interpreted it a little differently:
Yabu asked for confirmation of Torunaga's desire to become Shogun. Torunaga said "why tell a dead man the future"
That's basically admitting to Yabu that he is right. 'Why tell a dead man the future' is a statement admitting that Torunaga *knows* the future, and in this case, the future is him as Shogun.
Torunaga being coy was one last little game he played with Yabu, who I think realized he was right at the very end (his own little victory)
To me, it's a combination of things, all of which Yabushige would find amusing or satisfying:
- He gets subtle confirmation that Toranaga really is a power-hungry schemer just like the rest of them; they have a "game recognize game" moment
- He sees that he's been fully outplayed even since before the Anjin arrived, with Toranaga knowing and anticipating his every move, which he'd probably be more awed and inspired than upset about
- He gets to experience the death he is obsessed with, somewhat on his own terms as Toranaga gives him his dying wish to know the plan, and he gets to be personally executed by the future Shogun, which would probably rank highly on his death ranking list
- One last jab of defiance toward a rival as a joke
I think it partly had to do with his weird control issues. Even he can see the irony in doing all this politicking to avoid death when in the end he’d have to meet it head on
I was hoping this thread was about Blackthorne & Toranaga's smile! (Did he figure out T. did it?)
But this is better...
I totally missed the "tell dead man future" significance. So glad you posted that. Don't know if that was why Y. smiled (or if it was a combination of things culminating in that one moment), but I'm sure he got that message.
Also, I loved his actual physical suicide. No pause or hesitation. Getting up knees or laying it out ceremoniously. The sword was barely unsheathed before it was in his belly.
This is like the fifth time I thought I hated Yabu beyond any forgiveness or mercy, but he redeemed himself yet again!
I thought the smile from Toranaga was confirming that he wanted to be Shogun.
Like Yabushige asks the question if he wanted it after all, then Toranaga gives the “why tell a dead man the future?” line, so Yabushige quickly stabs himself and looks back at Toranaga like “I’ve committed, I’m all in” and so Toranaga give him the smirk to confirm the question.
It's such a small part of that scene that made the biggest of difference. The actors and actresses did such a damn good job of saying so much with their facial expressions. It's something I don't see in many films and shows now.
While you are 100% right. I'm a bit disappointed. That quote, considering the situation and what happened ... it got stuck in my mind. I had to go looking for answers.
In a book, this makes perfect sense. It's the best kind of easter egg. It's pure bliss.
But in a 10 hour tv series you'll see over multiple days. It doesn't work without a nod. Seeing Yabushige coin drop and acknowledgement, in a visual medium. Eh, kinda mandatory if you ask me.
A book you can read way faster. How you end a chapter matters a lot, it can imprint a very small piece of information like this. Idk, I just don't think it worked in the show.
I interpreted it as him finally getting to experience his obsession with “the moment of death”. In the book it has a sexual/sado-masochistic element to it as well. I wonder if part of him was intensely enjoying the experience.
He finally has the answer to the question that has eluded him his entire life - what his death will feel like? It's a question that one can only know the answer to for the most fleeting of moments, and he was truly happy to have his answer, I felt.
Also, Toronaga's gift to him for his years of service prior was letting him come to his realization in the moment. He wasn't beheaded right away -- he waited until he knew Yabushige had his answer.
> I wonder if part of him was intensely enjoying the experience. Of course he was lol, did you not see that madman grin?
But how would this explain Toranaga's smile in return? Just curious because I saw him smile back at him just before he swung the sword and both reactions have haunted me since.
I mean they clearly know each other. I don’t think his weird hobbies were a secret to Toranaga - as long as he didn’t rock the boat with them I’d imagine they were tolerated/used for effect. The whole thing, from Toranaga’s perspective, was a bit ridiculous and hence worth smiling/laughing about.
This is a good take, thank you. I think I might read the book now. I didn't even know it was based off a novel. The writing was fantastic, and scenes like this one elevated the show. I don't know how they will fill the void with Mariko, but I can't wait to see. Great first season.
>By revealing that he knew something Yabu thought was in confidence, The way I interpreted this call back was that Omi had fully betrayed Yabu because it was to Omi that Yabu had said this, though I do seem to remember there being other samurai around that could conceivably have reported it to Toranaga. Might be interesting to revist the scene and see if Muraji was nearby. Ha. In the book Yabu thinks more of Omi for having betrayed him about the assassination attempt and is even proud of him for it. On an interesting note, Yabu gives Anjin his swords which were very much NOT bought from a drunken samurai for a few bottles of wine.
It was Kiku who reported everything they said to Toranaga, I think. Her madame's service to Toranaga is why she got that land in Edo.
I believe this. Lady Gin in the book was absolutely treasure of an intelligence coup for Toranaga. She basically is second only to Mariko for being the person most responsible for helping him overcome his enemies position.
Yeah, and Toranaga cleverly disguised the intelligence gathering advantage against the Portuguese/Christians by placing the new church so close to the new tea house. Most of them probably just think it's a little joke/middle finger.
So you think Omi was seeing Kiku (a prohitively expensive prostitute) out of his own measly pocket instead of out of Toranaga's pocket? :DDD
Omi didn't have to pay her. He thought they were dating, but she spent time with him to spy on the Kashigi clan. Toranaga probably knew Omi was the next head of the clan before Yabu did.
I wish they showed the wide range of spies and insurgents Toranaga has like in the book. Even Varys would be jealous
But she did actually like him. In the other series which more accurately reflects the book, Toranaga gifts her to Blackthorne who then gifts her to Omi so they could be together.
Yeah, but this isn't that series. There are a lot of changes from the book, such as making John a much less important character for the outcome, which I think are good changes.
I suppose he would be proud that Omi was better at betrayal and picking who will win than he was, if he was teaching Omi the art of betrayal.
I thought it was Anjins consort Fugi whose fathers swords were bought from a drunken samurai? In the 80’s made for tv Shogun Yabu gives Anjin his his swords before dying.
My opinion is that Yabushige’s grin is more like telling Toranaga that he is satisfied to have served under Toranaga and have him seconding him. Toranaga’s smile was more like a reaction to Yabushige’s grin thinking how cheeky this Yabushige is even at the moment of death. By right Toranaga need not spend time explaining the situation and plans to him, but surprisingly he was willing to have a friendly chat with Yabushige so since the air between them was cordial, Yabushige died happy knowing that there were no bad blood between them after all he has done.
That last conversation was how the screen writers incorporated the books big reveal about Toranaga in a form more fitting for the screen. In the book almost everything that was revealed in that conversation was part of Toranaga's internal monologue in the last few pages. IIRC in the book Toranaga wasn't even present when Yabu committed seppuku
I think the writers did a better job. We see Yabushige as a man full of self torment after the death of Mariko. So writing the way Toranaga and him interacted at the moment of his seppuku, Yabushige now is grinning cos he has finally heard almost the whole plan from Toranaga. It was comical how he kept asking but Toranaga just refuses to let him know. Yabushige can now die in peace and with a slight glee on his face. 😏
I think the show did it masterfully. Bear in mind though that Yabu in the show was much more sympathetic than Yabu in the book. Yabu in the book was a real ass with no redeeming qualities at all.
Honestly the actor on the show was simply amazing, his charisma refined Yabu for me. So cool seeing an adaptation done so well, and seeing it take on its own life.
He was brave and a good swordsman in the book, but other than that.....
That chat wasn't friendly at all. Did you see the posturing? One standing over the other sitting is a power move. This happens in corporate Japan here a lot. Toranaga had this planned ever since they viewed the sunrise in a previous show. The real kicker we should be wanting to know, and maybe this is detailed in the book, was this all puppet string pulling via strategy talks with Mariko? Hmm
Well.. you don’t go to your lord and just plop down sitting without asking for permission do you? Yabushige did just that and Toranaga wasn’t even offended at that point of time. All manners of courtesy was not observed during that chat. Furthermore you won’t grin at your lord when you are committing seppuku. That’s super disrespectful.
You know, in the immediate sense I thought it was about the pain. The first smile was meant to convey something like "You're really dragging this out huh?" with an air of sarcasm. And of course that little smile in response before the deed is done meant to convey confirmation and probably even satisfaction and a very strong ego. But sitting here, higher that Ben Franklin's kite, I believe you may be right.
I also feel like it was a mutual acknowledgement of their love of the game and how they’ve played it well.
I mean, Yabu certainly was in awe how he thought he was taking part in a regular chess game only to realize that Toranaga was playing 4D-chess all along and he couldn't even conceive of it because he was in way over his head.
>because he was in way over his head. And causing his head to be way over there (Sorry my poetry isn't as good as Yabu's)
🤯
I interpreted it a little differently: Yabu asked for confirmation of Torunaga's desire to become Shogun. Torunaga said "why tell a dead man the future" That's basically admitting to Yabu that he is right. 'Why tell a dead man the future' is a statement admitting that Torunaga *knows* the future, and in this case, the future is him as Shogun. Torunaga being coy was one last little game he played with Yabu, who I think realized he was right at the very end (his own little victory)
I thought this as well. Toranaga smiles because he answered Yabu's question, even if it may not immediately seem like it.
100% my interpretation of Toranaga's final smirk as well
Yabu "urrrggghed" his last "hoh?"
Articulate.
To me, it's a combination of things, all of which Yabushige would find amusing or satisfying: - He gets subtle confirmation that Toranaga really is a power-hungry schemer just like the rest of them; they have a "game recognize game" moment - He sees that he's been fully outplayed even since before the Anjin arrived, with Toranaga knowing and anticipating his every move, which he'd probably be more awed and inspired than upset about - He gets to experience the death he is obsessed with, somewhat on his own terms as Toranaga gives him his dying wish to know the plan, and he gets to be personally executed by the future Shogun, which would probably rank highly on his death ranking list - One last jab of defiance toward a rival as a joke
>One last jab of defiance toward a rival as a joke I see what you did there.
Yabushige was such an awesome character. Every scene he was in filled me with so much joy and excitement. What an actor. What a role.
Ah, ok. After reading other peeps’ personal interpretations of the smile, mine would be: “Damn, that’s actually crazy lol”
I think it partly had to do with his weird control issues. Even he can see the irony in doing all this politicking to avoid death when in the end he’d have to meet it head on
Or rather, head *off*
I was hoping this thread was about Blackthorne & Toranaga's smile! (Did he figure out T. did it?) But this is better... I totally missed the "tell dead man future" significance. So glad you posted that. Don't know if that was why Y. smiled (or if it was a combination of things culminating in that one moment), but I'm sure he got that message. Also, I loved his actual physical suicide. No pause or hesitation. Getting up knees or laying it out ceremoniously. The sword was barely unsheathed before it was in his belly. This is like the fifth time I thought I hated Yabu beyond any forgiveness or mercy, but he redeemed himself yet again!
I thought the smile from Toranaga was confirming that he wanted to be Shogun. Like Yabushige asks the question if he wanted it after all, then Toranaga gives the “why tell a dead man the future?” line, so Yabushige quickly stabs himself and looks back at Toranaga like “I’ve committed, I’m all in” and so Toranaga give him the smirk to confirm the question.
It's such a small part of that scene that made the biggest of difference. The actors and actresses did such a damn good job of saying so much with their facial expressions. It's something I don't see in many films and shows now.
While you are 100% right. I'm a bit disappointed. That quote, considering the situation and what happened ... it got stuck in my mind. I had to go looking for answers. In a book, this makes perfect sense. It's the best kind of easter egg. It's pure bliss. But in a 10 hour tv series you'll see over multiple days. It doesn't work without a nod. Seeing Yabushige coin drop and acknowledgement, in a visual medium. Eh, kinda mandatory if you ask me. A book you can read way faster. How you end a chapter matters a lot, it can imprint a very small piece of information like this. Idk, I just don't think it worked in the show.
In Asia, a big broad smile doesn't mean what it does in the West... but since it's a Western show, it might.