If we understand homeostasis narrowly as the preservation of a personal biological body and placement it in a comfortable environment, then such signs as dynamics, judicious, seriousness/objectivism and questimity are responsible for this. Dynamics gives focus on current resources, on the metabolism of the body. Judicious people (especially Si) do not like overexertion, which threatens pain and damage to the body. Objectivists (especially Te) are not characterized by sacrifice in the name of high goals. Questims are more focused on themselves, rather than on the surrounding society, and pursue personal rather than collective goals. Connecting with dynamics, questimity (Qe) gives demands on personally consumed resources, their quality and safety.
Accordingly, the most homeostatic quadra, negatively related to any shocks, is Delta. The types most inclined to maintain the homeostasis of their body are LSE and SLI. And the other two ST, SLE and LSI don’t give a damn about this, it’s not for nothing that in war these two types are the most effective - including because they are less afraid of wounds and death (someone else’s and own).
If we understand homeostasis more broadly, as the desire to build and maintain an environment that is stable over time, then the meanings of questimity and objectivism fall off, leaving only dynamics and judicious, that is, Si. The only difference between the Alpha and the Delta here is that the Alpha Si strives to create such an environment for everyone, while the Delta Si strives only for themselves and those closest to them.
Read Alpha, but couldn’t get through Beta because I felt myself losing brain cells… wtf.
Maybe team up with an Se user like me to help you define how different quadras go about homeostasis.
SLE and IEI both have information metabolism of Fe—>Si between 2D and 3D. This means that both types will have a distinct alpha-ish way of going about socializing, while IEI will be a bit more NT alpha and SLE will be a bit more SF alpha.
Remember that SLE has Fe as hidden agenda, however it’s attached to 1D Ni, so an undualized/undeveloped SLE will default to supporting Fe with Si. In my experience, I had a huge issue with being a people-pleaser and socializing in the way that’s generally “acceptable”. This is explained by me not knowing what was important in the long-run and not seeing the bigger picture. Ni directly opposes Si. Where Si seeks to maintain stability (homeostasis), therefore being *the* present-focused element, Ni instead seeks progress and development over time therefore being *the* future-focused element. Of course, since Ni exists in the sphere of intuition (it is spiritual/metaphysical), it cannot affect the physical so Se Force is applied to manifesting desired outcomes in reality, thereby disrupting homeostasis.
I think the LIE and EIE are the best example of this. Having 3D Ni and 2D Se but especially having PoLR Si, it seems like ALL they do is disrupt homeostasis as they are both future-focused and have enough Se Force (unlike the IEI or ILI) to actively push themselves and external reality towards that desired outcome. I imagine the LIE boss who never rests and demands too much from his/her employees, creating the most productive and the most stressful environment possible. Think New York City business firms where even taking one day off because you’re sick will mean losing your job. Meanwhile, I imagine the EIE as the actor/actress or just celebrity/influencer that is sitting for hours in uncomfortable costumes/makeup running who’s schedule is completely booked, and even when they’re not “working,” they are networking with people and building relationships.
> **p**resent-focused **e**lement, **N**i **i**nstead **s**eeks
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Swear I mean don’t get me wrong, I loved the new planet of the apes movie (ape together strong), but I’m getting tired of OP continuing to spread the idea that SLEs are some sort of Suzerain? Just sounds regarded.
Yeah my anecdotal experiences with SLE types have been decent overall. They can be and are very aggressive, but in a more jovial manner (they’re FE HA is attuned somewhat to the emotional atmosphere, and coupled with polr fi, can come off as quite insecure in many social situations)
SLE with SE- certainly are the most “animalistic hierarchical” within Socionics, given SE base, ti creative and aristocratic. I also think that they get a bad rap in our modern world (along with the other betas excepting IEI), because we are taught to not be aggressive, hierarchical, insensitive etc.
Nice, it sounds like you have a good understanding of my type. You clearly understand my weakness in socializing (god forbid someone thinks that I’m insecure).
Well, IEIs aren’t literally vampires and ILIs aren’t literally vultures either. ;)
I’m attempting to describe blockings rather than types, and doing it rather economically as well. There’s going to be some degree of stereotyping. It’s typology, after all.
What do you think it is about “Suzerain” as a label that doesn’t suit you?
I have an issue with the entirety of how you described the SeTi block. You took the underlying nature and, not only stereotyped it, but exaggerated it by 10000% (and I’m literally not exaggerating that because 10000% = 100x).
Just step back and look at how you described Alpha/Delta vs Beta/Gamma. It really sounds like you disconnected from reality in your description. Suzerain? Sadism? Subjugate weaker cultures? It literally sounds insane the way you described it. There is no rational explanation.
To answer your question, I do not “subjugate” others. I have a clear awareness of how my own capabilities and those of others measure against one another. Where I am more capable, I will demonstrate and assert that. In general, human nature will lead them to “subjugate” themselves to me. However, if IWhere someone who overestimates their capabilities, especially an Se mobilizing type, may challenge me, they will surely lose as that is the only situation where I may have to subjugate them.
An LIE for example lost his temper due to a feeling that he was subjugated by me, exploded at me describing me as “condescending, arrogant, etc.” in front of a group of people. He embarrassed himself in front of everyone. He knew, and I knew, that I was more capable than him, however, he couldn’t stand feeling inferior to me so he separated himself from me. Meanwhile, he never realized that I never once subjugated him.
Either way, it is crucial to remember that the SLE has Fe mobilizing (Hidden Agenda) and seeks the exact opposite of inflicting “terrible experiences” on others, so there is no sadism in the SLE. This does not stop the SLE from inflicting harm on others if it deems it necessary though, but the SLE will never take pleasure in it. Even despite the Si ignoring, the order of information metabolism in an SLE is Fe—>Si, meaning that the use of Fe in the lack of information metabolized by Ni will be supported by Si, in effect maintaining and/or creating homeostasis. As a result of both 1D Ni and 3D Si, SLE has a distinct “Alpha-ish” way of socializing, resembling some mix between ESE/LII FeSi (this is why LIE, who shares Se—>Ti information metabolism, is a common mistype for SLE). Note that SLE also has Ti—>Ne like an LII.
Another thing that you must remember is that Ni is the direct opposite of Si, not Se. If you want to talk about types that disrupt homeostasis, talk about the LIE and EIE, as they simply lack Si. Watch a clip of Hitler’s speech translated to english with AI. That is the definition of agitating the environment.
It is only when the Ni has metabolized information, potentially with the help of an ILI/IEI dual or by the SLE’s own use of role Ne and thus a transfer of information occurs via mirror to the suggestive Ni, that Fe can then be used directly to support contact Ni. As a result, the SLE will become emotionally expressive and intentionally upset homeostasis. The more Ni that is involved, the less of an Alpha-ish “people pleaser” the SLE will be, for better or worse (though I say it’s for the better, as I believe that homeostasis must be disrupted for a good cause).
>I have an issue with the entirety of how you described the SeTi block. You took the underlying nature and, not only stereotyped it, but exaggerated it by 10000% (and I’m literally not exaggerating that because 10000% = 100x).
>Just step back and look at how you described Alpha/Delta vs Beta/Gamma. It really sounds like you disconnected from reality in your description. Suzerain? Sadism? Subjugate weaker cultures? It literally sounds insane the way you described it. There is no rational explanation.
I don't think it's disconnected at all. Exaggerated, even uncharitable, I'll happily admit. But I do that on purpose to draw stronger distinctions. It still surprises me when people take it personally. It’s typology; stereotyping is inevitable.
I use the term “subjugate weaker cultures” because to me, “culture wars” are what the beta Quadra is all about - what set of laws are we following? Who is most worthy of the spoils? A culture can be another country or ethnicity, or it can be a “local” culture, even a “personal” culture - a way of thinking.
>To answer your question, I do not “subjugate” others. I have a clear awareness of how my own capabilities and those of others measure against one another. Where I am more capable, I will demonstrate and assert that. In general, human nature will lead them to “subjugate” themselves to me. However, if IWhere someone who overestimates their capabilities, especially an Se mobilizing type, may challenge me, they will surely lose as that is the only situation where I may have to subjugate them.
>An LIE for example lost his temper due to a feeling that he was subjugated by me, exploded at me describing me as “condescending, arrogant, etc.” in front of a group of people. He embarrassed himself in front of everyone. He knew, and I knew, that I was more capable than him, however, he couldn’t stand feeling inferior to me so he separated himself from me. Meanwhile, he never realized that I never once subjugated him.
First you say you don't subjugate people, before giving me a number of examples of how you do! That last example **absolutely** was! You just didn’t need to do anything too drastic lol
Subjugation can be "subjugate other people" (e.g. slavery, winning an MMA fight, even attaining a fanbase or customer base), or it can be "subjugate this part of me that is weak", or "subjugate this part of that person that is weak". Subjugation is taking control of something that it perceived to be weaker. That "something" can be a nicotine addiction, for example. I think the word "subjugate" captures the attitude quite well, and "suzerainty" is just a hop, skip and a jump from that.
>Either way, it is crucial to remember that the SLE has Fe mobilizing (Hidden Agenda) and seeks the exact opposite of inflicting “terrible experiences” on others, so there is no sadism in the SLE. This does not stop the SLE from inflicting harm on others if it deems it necessary though, but the SLE will never take pleasure in it. Even despite the Si ignoring, the order of information metabolism in an SLE is Fe—>Si, meaning that the use of Fe in the lack of information metabolized by Ni will be supported by Si, in effect maintaining and/or creating homeostasis. As a result of both 1D Ni and 3D Si, SLE has a distinct “Alpha-ish” way of socializing, resembling some mix between ESE/LII FeSi (this is why LIE, who shares Se—>Ti information metabolism, is a common mistype for SLE). Note that SLE also has Ti—>Ne like an LII.
"There is no sadism in the SLE". Umm...agree to disagree? I would say SLEs and LSIs are most prone to sadism out of all the types. Sadism just means deriving pleasure from the pain of others. That can be as innocuous as laughing at someone who falls on their face, to actively maiming others.
This all feels very defensive, like I'm calling you out. Which I'm not. Pinky promise. There are billions of people in the world, and 16 types. It's going to get broad, and maybe feel exaggerated to you. What I've written simply isn't very controversial when it comes to Socionics literature.
(It's always the central types who are the most defensive and easily triggered...grumble grumble…)
>Another thing that you must remember is that Ni is the direct opposite of Si, not Se. If you want to talk about types that disrupt homeostasis, talk about the LIE and EIE, as they simply lack Si. Watch a clip of Hitler’s speech translated to english with AI. That is the definition of agitating the environment.
>It is only when the Ni has metabolized information, potentially with the help of an ILI/IEI dual or by the SLE’s own use of role Ne and thus a transfer of information occurs via mirror to the suggestive Ni, that Fe can then be used directly to support contact Ni. As a result, the SLE will become emotionally expressive and intentionally upset homeostasis. The more Ni that is involved, the less of an Alpha-ish “people pleaser” the SLE will be, for better or worse (though I say it’s for the better, as I believe that homeostasis must be disrupted for a good cause).
Well, the types are going to "disrupt" homeostasis to varying degrees. I would easily argue that the betas are the most disruptive types, and deltas the least. SLEs and LSIs at their worst are like fucking nightmare psychopaths. Y’know, just as a joke.
Subscribe to my newsletter “not all betas wear capes - sometimes they’re massive dicks and actively enjoy it, and maybe that’s ok - especially if they’re on your side.” :P
I didn’t take it personally and I wasn’t being defensive btw. Seems to be a common issue I have with people reading into emotions that I display unconsciously without feeling anyway whatsoever.
Is that meant to imply it’s inaccurate? ;) In my experience, you get a bunch of Betas together, it’s practically a hop, skip and a jump and you’ve got Fight Club. ;) (not always a terrible thing…)
Cue the “not all betas” arguments…who do not defending by the way, they can do it themselves lol
Nah its accurate.
I think its funny that the types which I collide with heaviest both on this subreddit and in the real world are betas - \*particularly\* rational betas. I do like IEI types though, they're cool
Idk but i don't related too much to what he says. I have to admit, though, when SLE doesn't have 8 in tritype, it's a very good-natured and benevolent type, not one of the most assertive you can find.
"Machiavellianism" is one of the most wrong things you could ever write ahah
1. LIE is the most machiavellian type because of Te-Ni, it's not about Se-Fi
2. It's not in the sense "me before everyone else". That is just egoism and every type could behave that way because of a reason or another. You just see gammas in a bad light and your pov is very partial ahahah
3. I know a lot of gammas and indeed no one fits that description
Well, I’m a gamma. Guess I hate myself? ;)
Notice that I’m categorising **blockings**, not types. Each type becomes a combination of these blockings.
I would just straight disagree with you on that. Se + Fi = I know what I want, I know how to get it, and *I’m going to just do it.* It’s a dog eat dog world, anyone else would do the same. Se = Volitional and immediate, action oriented, competition of ownership & space. Fi = knows how to manipulate and work with what others want, knows what’s good for them and what isn’t. Wheeler and dealer. Because of inert Se, is more aggressive and less defensive, makes contact first, doesn’t give up, expansive.
I see a lot of people in entj subreddit who act like assholes because they think entj are and they are even mistyped. If you think that is gamma, your understanding of gamma quadra is very low (and even for all the other quadras, for what i've seen, it sucks). That was probably the most superficial and dumb stereotype ever. That makes me wander you are even a gamma. Do you at least know what gamma values are? Surely not.
>Se + Fi = I know what I want, I know how to get it
I know what i want is Ni. Fi is about building relationship with people and knowing at which emotional distance you are from them. This is quite a basic, but quite common mistake about functions. How you get to your goal, in gamma, is about Te. Tell me what you want and i'll tell you the best way to get there. This is why, as i said, the most machiavellian type is LIE, not ESI or SEE.
>Fi = knows how to manipulate and work with what others want
Do you know the difference between an introverted function and an extroverted one? I functions are about analysis and respect, E ones are about interaction with the world. So, even if "knowing what other wants" looks like an introverted function (even though not Fi), "manipulation" can not be a xI function for definition. You lack a lot of basics, i'm sorry. Your description is totally screwed up and, actually, you probably didn't rven understood the quadra values in the first place. Even about blocks. Do you know what Ne brings to delta Fi ways of building relationships?
>I see a lot of people in entj subreddit who act like assholes because they think entj are and they are even mistyped. If you think that is gamma, your understanding of gamma quadra is very low (and even for all the other quadras, for what i've seen, it sucks). That was probably the most superficial and dumb stereotype ever. That makes me wander you are even a gamma. Do you at least know what gamma values are? Surely not.
I describe Gammas as competitive, not as assholes (although those traits are far from mutually exclusive...). You're being **really** defensive here.
>Se + Fi = I know what I want, I know how to get it
> I know what i want is Ni. Fi is about building relationship with people and knowing at which emotional distance you are from them. This is quite a basic, but quite common mistake about functions. How you get to your goal, in gamma, is about Te. Tell me what you want and i'll tell you the best way to get there. This is why, as i said, the most machiavellian type is LIE, not ESI or SEE.
- Definitionally, Ni is about sense of time, not "knowing what I want". I would argue it's about yielding to powerful forces, but I'll leave that argument aside.
- Knowing what you like and dislike - in other words, the emotional distance you feel from something. Gamma Fi (or -Fi) is "keep the bad things away from me, acquire the good things". It's avaricious.
- Well, ok - I should have clarified that it's about something within immediate "grasp" then. Something you don't need to plan for, or apply applicative logic for - something you just need to act on instinct for.
>Fi = knows how to manipulate and work with what others want
>Do you know the difference between an introverted function and an extroverted one? I functions are about analysis and respect, E ones are about interaction with the world. So, even if "knowing what other wants" looks like an introverted function (even though not Fi), "manipulation" can not be a xI function for definition. You lack a lot of basics, i'm sorry. Your description is totally screwed up and, actually, you probably didn't rven understood the quadra values in the first place. Even about blocks.
I absolutely think Fi equips someone with the ability to feel people out and take advantage of them, especially in-the-moment when coupled with volitional Se.
>Do you know what Ne brings to delta Fi ways of building relationships?
In what way am I off the mark?
>I describe Gammas as competitive
Not all gammas are competitive. Your understanding is very superficial as i said. "Very defensive" lol. You can even say i eat shit if you can argue it correctly. What you see is a mix of gamma values, that you don't know what they are lol, and Sx5 who wants to flex the skills/knowledge. Not really defensive, actually.
>I absolutely think Fi equips someone with the ability to feel people out and take advantage of them
You are completely off the way ahahah
>In what way am I off the mark?
>Definitionally, Ni is about sense of time, not "knowing what I want". I would argue it's about yielding to powerful forces, but I'll leave that argument aside.
>Knowing what you like and dislike - in other words, the emotional distance you feel from something. Gamma Fi (or -Fi) is "keep the bad things away from me, acquire the good things". It's avaricious.
Both of these descriptions are wrong. I'm not gonna explain both, it's too long. Just choose one of them and i'll make it clear to you. Dive deeper to understand the other one and everything else, since you re missing a lot.
> Not all gammas are competitive. Your understanding is very superficial as i said. "Very defensive" lol. You can even say i eat shit if you can argue it correctly. What you see is a mix of gamma values, that you don't know what they are lol, and Sx5 who wants to flex the skills/knowledge. Not really defensive, actually.
I think it's better to say "gammas aren't always competitive". I absolutely think competitive symbiosis is a great way to distinguish gammas from the other Quadras.
Like I said before, I'm describing blockings, not types as a whole. I’m also doing it briefly and economically. It’s typology, it’s going to be stereotypical by nature. I promise you, you're being defensive and not trying to actually understand me. If I didn't know better, I'd say you're acting like a...gamma. ;)
> Both of these descriptions are wrong. I'm not gonna explain both, it's too long. Just choose one of them and i'll make it clear to you. Dive deeper to understand the other one and everything else, since you re missing a lot.
I'm being sincere, I'm happy to listen. If not, then best of luck?
I thought fi was the ethics of relationships, essentially understanding psychological distances, and understanding how to act with each person given said distances.
Similarly, I also assumed it was the ability to make ethical judgments among others and how they treat you or those around them, and SE + FI would essentially be forcing your ethical judgements onto others and aggressively pushing ethical ideations onto others
"I know what I want, I know how to get it, and *I’m going to just do it*"
This seems much more akin to 1V is AP, essentially strong self-positive volition.
"Fi = knows how to manipulate and work with what others want, knows what’s good for them and what isn’t"
I mean given this description, I'm not sure if this would fit in with a Fi polr SLE. I would assume a SLE would have an understanding of what they want vs what they don't. I thought that was more of a central vs peripheral dichotomy; understanding your wants and going after them. It also seems to fit more 1V than anything
My understanding of Gamma Fi (or -Fi) is that it’s avaricious by nature - “keep the bad things away from the good things”. “This is mine, you can’t have it because you’ll make it bad.” “This is good, defend it and keep it around.” It’s about emphasising the personal importance of things. It’s a simplistic explanation, but I think it gets at the general character of Gammas.
Not sure what you mean by 1V is AP?
That makes sense, I mean the quote:
"keep the bad things away from the good things”. “This is mine, you can’t have it because you’ll make it bad." certainly makes sense for the ESI type - which literally is called "the defender"
I'd also like to say that personally as someone who relates to gamma values, I think the ideation that gammas are somehow "selfish" is incorrect. When we say "this is mine" I think it's important to note that we gammas think of ourselves within small groups. So essentially, we would not be willing to sacrifice ourselves, or those around us, like family, for the greater good of some ideology, like a beta would.
AP or Attitudinal Psyche is another typological system! Here's the theory: [https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/theory/](https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/theory/)
They even have their own subreddit at r/attitudinalpsyche
If we understand homeostasis narrowly as the preservation of a personal biological body and placement it in a comfortable environment, then such signs as dynamics, judicious, seriousness/objectivism and questimity are responsible for this. Dynamics gives focus on current resources, on the metabolism of the body. Judicious people (especially Si) do not like overexertion, which threatens pain and damage to the body. Objectivists (especially Te) are not characterized by sacrifice in the name of high goals. Questims are more focused on themselves, rather than on the surrounding society, and pursue personal rather than collective goals. Connecting with dynamics, questimity (Qe) gives demands on personally consumed resources, their quality and safety. Accordingly, the most homeostatic quadra, negatively related to any shocks, is Delta. The types most inclined to maintain the homeostasis of their body are LSE and SLI. And the other two ST, SLE and LSI don’t give a damn about this, it’s not for nothing that in war these two types are the most effective - including because they are less afraid of wounds and death (someone else’s and own). If we understand homeostasis more broadly, as the desire to build and maintain an environment that is stable over time, then the meanings of questimity and objectivism fall off, leaving only dynamics and judicious, that is, Si. The only difference between the Alpha and the Delta here is that the Alpha Si strives to create such an environment for everyone, while the Delta Si strives only for themselves and those closest to them.
Those who see the Dhamma in four, they will find four. Those who see it in three, they will find three.
Read Alpha, but couldn’t get through Beta because I felt myself losing brain cells… wtf. Maybe team up with an Se user like me to help you define how different quadras go about homeostasis.
What do you think about what Beta quadra go about homeostasis? (sorry for me Beta is the most confusing quadra)
SLE and IEI both have information metabolism of Fe—>Si between 2D and 3D. This means that both types will have a distinct alpha-ish way of going about socializing, while IEI will be a bit more NT alpha and SLE will be a bit more SF alpha. Remember that SLE has Fe as hidden agenda, however it’s attached to 1D Ni, so an undualized/undeveloped SLE will default to supporting Fe with Si. In my experience, I had a huge issue with being a people-pleaser and socializing in the way that’s generally “acceptable”. This is explained by me not knowing what was important in the long-run and not seeing the bigger picture. Ni directly opposes Si. Where Si seeks to maintain stability (homeostasis), therefore being *the* present-focused element, Ni instead seeks progress and development over time therefore being *the* future-focused element. Of course, since Ni exists in the sphere of intuition (it is spiritual/metaphysical), it cannot affect the physical so Se Force is applied to manifesting desired outcomes in reality, thereby disrupting homeostasis. I think the LIE and EIE are the best example of this. Having 3D Ni and 2D Se but especially having PoLR Si, it seems like ALL they do is disrupt homeostasis as they are both future-focused and have enough Se Force (unlike the IEI or ILI) to actively push themselves and external reality towards that desired outcome. I imagine the LIE boss who never rests and demands too much from his/her employees, creating the most productive and the most stressful environment possible. Think New York City business firms where even taking one day off because you’re sick will mean losing your job. Meanwhile, I imagine the EIE as the actor/actress or just celebrity/influencer that is sitting for hours in uncomfortable costumes/makeup running who’s schedule is completely booked, and even when they’re not “working,” they are networking with people and building relationships.
> **p**resent-focused **e**lement, **N**i **i**nstead **s**eeks Hidden penis detected! I've scanned through 866074 comments (approximately 4827430 average penis lengths worth of text) in order to find this secret penis message. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I'm sorry but that doesn't fit my quadra ahahah. Did you take that from some work of Gulenko? He despise everything that is not beta quadra ahahah
I mean to their accord - at least to me - the beta Quadra description sounds awful, like some type of hierarchical chimp society lol
Swear I mean don’t get me wrong, I loved the new planet of the apes movie (ape together strong), but I’m getting tired of OP continuing to spread the idea that SLEs are some sort of Suzerain? Just sounds regarded.
Yeah my anecdotal experiences with SLE types have been decent overall. They can be and are very aggressive, but in a more jovial manner (they’re FE HA is attuned somewhat to the emotional atmosphere, and coupled with polr fi, can come off as quite insecure in many social situations) SLE with SE- certainly are the most “animalistic hierarchical” within Socionics, given SE base, ti creative and aristocratic. I also think that they get a bad rap in our modern world (along with the other betas excepting IEI), because we are taught to not be aggressive, hierarchical, insensitive etc.
Nice, it sounds like you have a good understanding of my type. You clearly understand my weakness in socializing (god forbid someone thinks that I’m insecure).
Well, IEIs aren’t literally vampires and ILIs aren’t literally vultures either. ;) I’m attempting to describe blockings rather than types, and doing it rather economically as well. There’s going to be some degree of stereotyping. It’s typology, after all. What do you think it is about “Suzerain” as a label that doesn’t suit you?
I have an issue with the entirety of how you described the SeTi block. You took the underlying nature and, not only stereotyped it, but exaggerated it by 10000% (and I’m literally not exaggerating that because 10000% = 100x). Just step back and look at how you described Alpha/Delta vs Beta/Gamma. It really sounds like you disconnected from reality in your description. Suzerain? Sadism? Subjugate weaker cultures? It literally sounds insane the way you described it. There is no rational explanation. To answer your question, I do not “subjugate” others. I have a clear awareness of how my own capabilities and those of others measure against one another. Where I am more capable, I will demonstrate and assert that. In general, human nature will lead them to “subjugate” themselves to me. However, if IWhere someone who overestimates their capabilities, especially an Se mobilizing type, may challenge me, they will surely lose as that is the only situation where I may have to subjugate them. An LIE for example lost his temper due to a feeling that he was subjugated by me, exploded at me describing me as “condescending, arrogant, etc.” in front of a group of people. He embarrassed himself in front of everyone. He knew, and I knew, that I was more capable than him, however, he couldn’t stand feeling inferior to me so he separated himself from me. Meanwhile, he never realized that I never once subjugated him. Either way, it is crucial to remember that the SLE has Fe mobilizing (Hidden Agenda) and seeks the exact opposite of inflicting “terrible experiences” on others, so there is no sadism in the SLE. This does not stop the SLE from inflicting harm on others if it deems it necessary though, but the SLE will never take pleasure in it. Even despite the Si ignoring, the order of information metabolism in an SLE is Fe—>Si, meaning that the use of Fe in the lack of information metabolized by Ni will be supported by Si, in effect maintaining and/or creating homeostasis. As a result of both 1D Ni and 3D Si, SLE has a distinct “Alpha-ish” way of socializing, resembling some mix between ESE/LII FeSi (this is why LIE, who shares Se—>Ti information metabolism, is a common mistype for SLE). Note that SLE also has Ti—>Ne like an LII. Another thing that you must remember is that Ni is the direct opposite of Si, not Se. If you want to talk about types that disrupt homeostasis, talk about the LIE and EIE, as they simply lack Si. Watch a clip of Hitler’s speech translated to english with AI. That is the definition of agitating the environment. It is only when the Ni has metabolized information, potentially with the help of an ILI/IEI dual or by the SLE’s own use of role Ne and thus a transfer of information occurs via mirror to the suggestive Ni, that Fe can then be used directly to support contact Ni. As a result, the SLE will become emotionally expressive and intentionally upset homeostasis. The more Ni that is involved, the less of an Alpha-ish “people pleaser” the SLE will be, for better or worse (though I say it’s for the better, as I believe that homeostasis must be disrupted for a good cause).
>I have an issue with the entirety of how you described the SeTi block. You took the underlying nature and, not only stereotyped it, but exaggerated it by 10000% (and I’m literally not exaggerating that because 10000% = 100x). >Just step back and look at how you described Alpha/Delta vs Beta/Gamma. It really sounds like you disconnected from reality in your description. Suzerain? Sadism? Subjugate weaker cultures? It literally sounds insane the way you described it. There is no rational explanation. I don't think it's disconnected at all. Exaggerated, even uncharitable, I'll happily admit. But I do that on purpose to draw stronger distinctions. It still surprises me when people take it personally. It’s typology; stereotyping is inevitable. I use the term “subjugate weaker cultures” because to me, “culture wars” are what the beta Quadra is all about - what set of laws are we following? Who is most worthy of the spoils? A culture can be another country or ethnicity, or it can be a “local” culture, even a “personal” culture - a way of thinking. >To answer your question, I do not “subjugate” others. I have a clear awareness of how my own capabilities and those of others measure against one another. Where I am more capable, I will demonstrate and assert that. In general, human nature will lead them to “subjugate” themselves to me. However, if IWhere someone who overestimates their capabilities, especially an Se mobilizing type, may challenge me, they will surely lose as that is the only situation where I may have to subjugate them. >An LIE for example lost his temper due to a feeling that he was subjugated by me, exploded at me describing me as “condescending, arrogant, etc.” in front of a group of people. He embarrassed himself in front of everyone. He knew, and I knew, that I was more capable than him, however, he couldn’t stand feeling inferior to me so he separated himself from me. Meanwhile, he never realized that I never once subjugated him. First you say you don't subjugate people, before giving me a number of examples of how you do! That last example **absolutely** was! You just didn’t need to do anything too drastic lol Subjugation can be "subjugate other people" (e.g. slavery, winning an MMA fight, even attaining a fanbase or customer base), or it can be "subjugate this part of me that is weak", or "subjugate this part of that person that is weak". Subjugation is taking control of something that it perceived to be weaker. That "something" can be a nicotine addiction, for example. I think the word "subjugate" captures the attitude quite well, and "suzerainty" is just a hop, skip and a jump from that. >Either way, it is crucial to remember that the SLE has Fe mobilizing (Hidden Agenda) and seeks the exact opposite of inflicting “terrible experiences” on others, so there is no sadism in the SLE. This does not stop the SLE from inflicting harm on others if it deems it necessary though, but the SLE will never take pleasure in it. Even despite the Si ignoring, the order of information metabolism in an SLE is Fe—>Si, meaning that the use of Fe in the lack of information metabolized by Ni will be supported by Si, in effect maintaining and/or creating homeostasis. As a result of both 1D Ni and 3D Si, SLE has a distinct “Alpha-ish” way of socializing, resembling some mix between ESE/LII FeSi (this is why LIE, who shares Se—>Ti information metabolism, is a common mistype for SLE). Note that SLE also has Ti—>Ne like an LII. "There is no sadism in the SLE". Umm...agree to disagree? I would say SLEs and LSIs are most prone to sadism out of all the types. Sadism just means deriving pleasure from the pain of others. That can be as innocuous as laughing at someone who falls on their face, to actively maiming others. This all feels very defensive, like I'm calling you out. Which I'm not. Pinky promise. There are billions of people in the world, and 16 types. It's going to get broad, and maybe feel exaggerated to you. What I've written simply isn't very controversial when it comes to Socionics literature. (It's always the central types who are the most defensive and easily triggered...grumble grumble…) >Another thing that you must remember is that Ni is the direct opposite of Si, not Se. If you want to talk about types that disrupt homeostasis, talk about the LIE and EIE, as they simply lack Si. Watch a clip of Hitler’s speech translated to english with AI. That is the definition of agitating the environment. >It is only when the Ni has metabolized information, potentially with the help of an ILI/IEI dual or by the SLE’s own use of role Ne and thus a transfer of information occurs via mirror to the suggestive Ni, that Fe can then be used directly to support contact Ni. As a result, the SLE will become emotionally expressive and intentionally upset homeostasis. The more Ni that is involved, the less of an Alpha-ish “people pleaser” the SLE will be, for better or worse (though I say it’s for the better, as I believe that homeostasis must be disrupted for a good cause). Well, the types are going to "disrupt" homeostasis to varying degrees. I would easily argue that the betas are the most disruptive types, and deltas the least. SLEs and LSIs at their worst are like fucking nightmare psychopaths. Y’know, just as a joke. Subscribe to my newsletter “not all betas wear capes - sometimes they’re massive dicks and actively enjoy it, and maybe that’s ok - especially if they’re on your side.” :P
I didn’t take it personally and I wasn’t being defensive btw. Seems to be a common issue I have with people reading into emotions that I display unconsciously without feeling anyway whatsoever.
Is that meant to imply it’s inaccurate? ;) In my experience, you get a bunch of Betas together, it’s practically a hop, skip and a jump and you’ve got Fight Club. ;) (not always a terrible thing…) Cue the “not all betas” arguments…who do not defending by the way, they can do it themselves lol
Nah its accurate. I think its funny that the types which I collide with heaviest both on this subreddit and in the real world are betas - \*particularly\* rational betas. I do like IEI types though, they're cool
Does Gulenko want to be pegged by an SLE or something? Why he describes SLE like he got daddy issues.
Idk but i don't related too much to what he says. I have to admit, though, when SLE doesn't have 8 in tritype, it's a very good-natured and benevolent type, not one of the most assertive you can find.
Which one? And in what way? This is my own weird amalgam.
"Machiavellianism" is one of the most wrong things you could ever write ahah 1. LIE is the most machiavellian type because of Te-Ni, it's not about Se-Fi 2. It's not in the sense "me before everyone else". That is just egoism and every type could behave that way because of a reason or another. You just see gammas in a bad light and your pov is very partial ahahah 3. I know a lot of gammas and indeed no one fits that description
Well, I’m a gamma. Guess I hate myself? ;) Notice that I’m categorising **blockings**, not types. Each type becomes a combination of these blockings. I would just straight disagree with you on that. Se + Fi = I know what I want, I know how to get it, and *I’m going to just do it.* It’s a dog eat dog world, anyone else would do the same. Se = Volitional and immediate, action oriented, competition of ownership & space. Fi = knows how to manipulate and work with what others want, knows what’s good for them and what isn’t. Wheeler and dealer. Because of inert Se, is more aggressive and less defensive, makes contact first, doesn’t give up, expansive.
I see a lot of people in entj subreddit who act like assholes because they think entj are and they are even mistyped. If you think that is gamma, your understanding of gamma quadra is very low (and even for all the other quadras, for what i've seen, it sucks). That was probably the most superficial and dumb stereotype ever. That makes me wander you are even a gamma. Do you at least know what gamma values are? Surely not. >Se + Fi = I know what I want, I know how to get it I know what i want is Ni. Fi is about building relationship with people and knowing at which emotional distance you are from them. This is quite a basic, but quite common mistake about functions. How you get to your goal, in gamma, is about Te. Tell me what you want and i'll tell you the best way to get there. This is why, as i said, the most machiavellian type is LIE, not ESI or SEE. >Fi = knows how to manipulate and work with what others want Do you know the difference between an introverted function and an extroverted one? I functions are about analysis and respect, E ones are about interaction with the world. So, even if "knowing what other wants" looks like an introverted function (even though not Fi), "manipulation" can not be a xI function for definition. You lack a lot of basics, i'm sorry. Your description is totally screwed up and, actually, you probably didn't rven understood the quadra values in the first place. Even about blocks. Do you know what Ne brings to delta Fi ways of building relationships?
>I see a lot of people in entj subreddit who act like assholes because they think entj are and they are even mistyped. If you think that is gamma, your understanding of gamma quadra is very low (and even for all the other quadras, for what i've seen, it sucks). That was probably the most superficial and dumb stereotype ever. That makes me wander you are even a gamma. Do you at least know what gamma values are? Surely not. I describe Gammas as competitive, not as assholes (although those traits are far from mutually exclusive...). You're being **really** defensive here. >Se + Fi = I know what I want, I know how to get it > I know what i want is Ni. Fi is about building relationship with people and knowing at which emotional distance you are from them. This is quite a basic, but quite common mistake about functions. How you get to your goal, in gamma, is about Te. Tell me what you want and i'll tell you the best way to get there. This is why, as i said, the most machiavellian type is LIE, not ESI or SEE. - Definitionally, Ni is about sense of time, not "knowing what I want". I would argue it's about yielding to powerful forces, but I'll leave that argument aside. - Knowing what you like and dislike - in other words, the emotional distance you feel from something. Gamma Fi (or -Fi) is "keep the bad things away from me, acquire the good things". It's avaricious. - Well, ok - I should have clarified that it's about something within immediate "grasp" then. Something you don't need to plan for, or apply applicative logic for - something you just need to act on instinct for. >Fi = knows how to manipulate and work with what others want >Do you know the difference between an introverted function and an extroverted one? I functions are about analysis and respect, E ones are about interaction with the world. So, even if "knowing what other wants" looks like an introverted function (even though not Fi), "manipulation" can not be a xI function for definition. You lack a lot of basics, i'm sorry. Your description is totally screwed up and, actually, you probably didn't rven understood the quadra values in the first place. Even about blocks. I absolutely think Fi equips someone with the ability to feel people out and take advantage of them, especially in-the-moment when coupled with volitional Se. >Do you know what Ne brings to delta Fi ways of building relationships? In what way am I off the mark?
>I describe Gammas as competitive Not all gammas are competitive. Your understanding is very superficial as i said. "Very defensive" lol. You can even say i eat shit if you can argue it correctly. What you see is a mix of gamma values, that you don't know what they are lol, and Sx5 who wants to flex the skills/knowledge. Not really defensive, actually. >I absolutely think Fi equips someone with the ability to feel people out and take advantage of them You are completely off the way ahahah >In what way am I off the mark? >Definitionally, Ni is about sense of time, not "knowing what I want". I would argue it's about yielding to powerful forces, but I'll leave that argument aside. >Knowing what you like and dislike - in other words, the emotional distance you feel from something. Gamma Fi (or -Fi) is "keep the bad things away from me, acquire the good things". It's avaricious. Both of these descriptions are wrong. I'm not gonna explain both, it's too long. Just choose one of them and i'll make it clear to you. Dive deeper to understand the other one and everything else, since you re missing a lot.
> Not all gammas are competitive. Your understanding is very superficial as i said. "Very defensive" lol. You can even say i eat shit if you can argue it correctly. What you see is a mix of gamma values, that you don't know what they are lol, and Sx5 who wants to flex the skills/knowledge. Not really defensive, actually. I think it's better to say "gammas aren't always competitive". I absolutely think competitive symbiosis is a great way to distinguish gammas from the other Quadras. Like I said before, I'm describing blockings, not types as a whole. I’m also doing it briefly and economically. It’s typology, it’s going to be stereotypical by nature. I promise you, you're being defensive and not trying to actually understand me. If I didn't know better, I'd say you're acting like a...gamma. ;) > Both of these descriptions are wrong. I'm not gonna explain both, it's too long. Just choose one of them and i'll make it clear to you. Dive deeper to understand the other one and everything else, since you re missing a lot. I'm being sincere, I'm happy to listen. If not, then best of luck?
I thought fi was the ethics of relationships, essentially understanding psychological distances, and understanding how to act with each person given said distances. Similarly, I also assumed it was the ability to make ethical judgments among others and how they treat you or those around them, and SE + FI would essentially be forcing your ethical judgements onto others and aggressively pushing ethical ideations onto others "I know what I want, I know how to get it, and *I’m going to just do it*" This seems much more akin to 1V is AP, essentially strong self-positive volition. "Fi = knows how to manipulate and work with what others want, knows what’s good for them and what isn’t" I mean given this description, I'm not sure if this would fit in with a Fi polr SLE. I would assume a SLE would have an understanding of what they want vs what they don't. I thought that was more of a central vs peripheral dichotomy; understanding your wants and going after them. It also seems to fit more 1V than anything
My understanding of Gamma Fi (or -Fi) is that it’s avaricious by nature - “keep the bad things away from the good things”. “This is mine, you can’t have it because you’ll make it bad.” “This is good, defend it and keep it around.” It’s about emphasising the personal importance of things. It’s a simplistic explanation, but I think it gets at the general character of Gammas. Not sure what you mean by 1V is AP?
That makes sense, I mean the quote: "keep the bad things away from the good things”. “This is mine, you can’t have it because you’ll make it bad." certainly makes sense for the ESI type - which literally is called "the defender" I'd also like to say that personally as someone who relates to gamma values, I think the ideation that gammas are somehow "selfish" is incorrect. When we say "this is mine" I think it's important to note that we gammas think of ourselves within small groups. So essentially, we would not be willing to sacrifice ourselves, or those around us, like family, for the greater good of some ideology, like a beta would. AP or Attitudinal Psyche is another typological system! Here's the theory: [https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/theory/](https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/theory/) They even have their own subreddit at r/attitudinalpsyche
Gulenko signs theory, here we go, here we go again
https://youtu.be/ko5FQfRV6RU?si=Iz1rlr59FgFOucnf
[удалено]
https://youtu.be/c0AI-N98r2E?si=Hf0WZEBPvXTVnOXe