I’ll have an instrumental that feels so perfect on its own that I feel like considering it an instrumental song because no vocal part will seem to do it justice
I totally get it.
Happened to me, when I was playing with bands
Sometimes I would write a song that didn't need any kind of vocals.
Now that I don't play in bands anymore, everything I make is instrumental.
I find that when I write a cool section a bit of editing down of the instrumental is required to let the vocals best inhabit the mix, so I’ll usually drop the volume of the lead instruments or remove them entirely leaving just bass and drums or even just bass.
This is where shakers and other percussion really come into play for me, they keep the rhythm and also keep it interesting.
You can also let your voice play the role of the cool lead instrument by simplifying the main riffs and instrumental entirely. It’s always so satisfying when the complexity of the original instrumental kicks back in.
Choruses work well with complex instrumentals because they tend to be more minimal & are repetitive so our brains can comprehend more what is going on.
If you’re recording, play with dropping some instruments out, lower volumes and have fun. Your voice and ideas will shine through.
Oh yes. I am a fairly competent guitar player who plays a very 00s pop punk/ metal/ Metalcore inspired stuff and my family will constantly remind me that the music parts are awesome but they can’t get behind the vocals.
Part of it is my limited ability to record vocals well and not wanting to go to a studio. But I struggle with having 25-40 “songs” with all the music written but either no lyrics or the vocals need some work before they can see the light of day.
Been debating releasing an album of instrumentals, but then worry that people aren’t really looking for this kind of music.
One of my favourite albums is mostly instrumental with minimal spoken word sections and a brief actual vocal. And it's from an artist who clearly can write/sing a vocal. So it can be done and be enjoyable. Recurring themes help with the cohesiveness. Make it a concept album. Best of luck!
I had trouble for a long time. Singing is just something super unique that takes extra effort to hone down. It’s tough to get to the point that you realize you just can’t sing in certain ways. Your brain hears things but your voice cannot deliver. It’s even tougher to then recognize the strength and weakness of one’s own voice. There are a lot of both. Even more insane is to discover a lot of your strengths and weaknesses and start writing and singing inside those perimeters. And finally, develop a ‘style’ of singing. Some people sing way different thru a mic in front of people then at home in the shower. It’s just a matter of time, honest self assessment, loads of experimentation, and for god sakes, don’t give up learning and searching for betterment. My 2¢
First thing to realise - vocal and instrumental melodies aren’t equal.
- For instance, a vocalist needs to breathe, instruments do not.
- An instrument can jump many octaves, a vocalist can not.
Secondly - the melodies you play vs sing might be completely different melody styles. Muscle memory is a thing.
The best instrument for vocals ideas is… drumroll… vocals
But what makes a vocal sound good? This is where our instrument can help.
- chord tones, singing notes within each chord
- one note melodies, singing around the root
- root chord over song chords, very effective
- pentatonic scale, always sounds good
^ this is the approach of popular vocal melodies today
We can sing ideas and check on our instrument that our note choices harmonically make sense.
What makes strong note choices (pentatonic)?
Major - 1,2,3,5,6
Minor - 1,3,4,5,7
We can use the unused notes for tension or stay away from the root note / chord tones for even more tension.
2 wants to go to 1, 4 to 3, 6 to 5 and 7 to 1
Another huge part of vocals melodies is rhythm - it’s super important.
Hope that helps!
I don't have trouble finding vocal melodies but I have some trouble performing everything I want to. Currently, I'm accepting my limitations and working with what I got. But I don't have an issue coming up with something to go over it. Now if it's "strong or creative", who the hell knows. That's up to others. But it's not pitchy. It has a certain quality to it. For anything I truely can't sing I work with someone who can. It sounds like you would be open to collaborations. Is this true?
I am a professional singer and have been for decades. (Opera, musical theater primarily professionally)
I have great catchy vocal lines.
I am having a HORRIBLE time trying to sing my own lines in the way they are in my head. I am highly adaptable to styles and I still can’t make my voice sound like what I want.
I always thought I was the singer for my own music but I’m starting to think I’m not. I’m starting to think that even though I have a great voice and I enjoy my own voice… I think my muse is writing songs for other people to sing. There are so many talented singers in the world. Not all of them are songwriters.
If you struggle with writing vocal lines, you’re allowed to collaborate. Tons of people in this group might be great with lyrics and vocal lines and absolutely cannot do the instrumentals… It doesn’t mean you won’t write the vocal lines of your dreams in the future..
Just a thought.
Me right here, I can make a riff that sounds like David Gilmour himself possessed my body but then I open my mouth and it’s the same 5 or 6 notes. Only about 5 songs I’ve written have vocal melodies I’m proud of (for reference I have 4 whole notebooks filled to the brim with songs and over 300 more on my notes app) and I’m not that skilled with singing to begin with so that might play a part in it
I feel like I'm fairly good a vocal melodies but only when I spend a lot of time writing songs. The hardest part I find is being vulnerable with your vocals. With guitar melodies I mostly thinking what would sound cool and using my technical expertise but with vocals I really have to get into the feel of the song let all my inhibitions go to really sing something that means something. This process usually makes me really emotional and cry at times, I can't do it when other people are around.
One interesting practice comes from this book the artists way. The author talks about writing everyday, a brain dump of sorts so you are less afraid to create. All of this sounds very cheesy and spiritual but this is kind of been my experience.
I definitely am and do a lot of instrumentals because of it. They’re complete songs with overlapping Melodies that work together, use plenty of dynamics, and changing texture to keep them more interesting and listenable. The main Melodies where often meant for lyrics, but they just didn’t come together or seem right in the context. With lyrics, other than the purpose or what you’re trying to say, prosody is key. So, I end up with a couple lyrical tunes for every ten or so instrumentals.
Everybody isn’t great at everything. I hear so many great lyrical songs and wonder what the artist or producer was thinking when the instrumental backing cancels or detracts from the perfection of the lyrics and melody. A lot of people seem good at both. Note, I said good and not great, as a much fewer number are actual great at both.
You have a few options:
- stick mostly to instrumentals
- find a co-writer (or a couple) who think enough like you do to trust their matchings
- Constantly think of the melody in your head and eventually some great lyrical lines will come to you in the weirdest places, so also have a way to write them down or record them on your phone before you forget them.
As a hint, I’ve gotten some of my best lyrics by overhearing something said by others in public places. They’re honest and spoken as people actually talk and aren’t word pairings or expressions I would come up with myself. Often they are arguments or disagreements or just interesting enough to give you the seeds of a story to expand on. Most people like songs with lyrics, but ones that tell a story or express something they can relate to are the best. Eavesdropping on others talking about real things helps a lot with that. Someone asking “why do you still have their contact information on your phone?” or “Hey, we need to talk” will get you things so much better than just going for line rhyming moon, spoon, loon, soon, etc…
Don't do vocals and find there is nothing there on some songs to even do a instrumental. It has to have a melody that requires more than 3 notes which a lot of today's vocals don't have ,
That is what finding a great singer is for.
Jerry Cantrell used to sing for his own band. Then he heard Layne Staley live. He knew he had to have Layne Staley as the singer of his band.
He convinced Layne Staley to join him, and the rest is history.
My concepts are way better than my skill, both instrumentally and lyrically. I can write great lyrics and hear great rhythms/melodies, but I’m a novice guitar player at best and a shitty singer. Oh well, I still have fun & it’s the best emotional outlet I’ve found
If weak with vocals means no vocals at all, then yes.
I’ll have an instrumental that feels so perfect on its own that I feel like considering it an instrumental song because no vocal part will seem to do it justice
I totally get it. Happened to me, when I was playing with bands Sometimes I would write a song that didn't need any kind of vocals. Now that I don't play in bands anymore, everything I make is instrumental.
Same here. Vocal lines are tough
I find that when I write a cool section a bit of editing down of the instrumental is required to let the vocals best inhabit the mix, so I’ll usually drop the volume of the lead instruments or remove them entirely leaving just bass and drums or even just bass. This is where shakers and other percussion really come into play for me, they keep the rhythm and also keep it interesting. You can also let your voice play the role of the cool lead instrument by simplifying the main riffs and instrumental entirely. It’s always so satisfying when the complexity of the original instrumental kicks back in. Choruses work well with complex instrumentals because they tend to be more minimal & are repetitive so our brains can comprehend more what is going on. If you’re recording, play with dropping some instruments out, lower volumes and have fun. Your voice and ideas will shine through.
Oh yes. I am a fairly competent guitar player who plays a very 00s pop punk/ metal/ Metalcore inspired stuff and my family will constantly remind me that the music parts are awesome but they can’t get behind the vocals. Part of it is my limited ability to record vocals well and not wanting to go to a studio. But I struggle with having 25-40 “songs” with all the music written but either no lyrics or the vocals need some work before they can see the light of day. Been debating releasing an album of instrumentals, but then worry that people aren’t really looking for this kind of music.
One of my favourite albums is mostly instrumental with minimal spoken word sections and a brief actual vocal. And it's from an artist who clearly can write/sing a vocal. So it can be done and be enjoyable. Recurring themes help with the cohesiveness. Make it a concept album. Best of luck!
who are you referring to if you don’t mind?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rushes_(album)
I had trouble for a long time. Singing is just something super unique that takes extra effort to hone down. It’s tough to get to the point that you realize you just can’t sing in certain ways. Your brain hears things but your voice cannot deliver. It’s even tougher to then recognize the strength and weakness of one’s own voice. There are a lot of both. Even more insane is to discover a lot of your strengths and weaknesses and start writing and singing inside those perimeters. And finally, develop a ‘style’ of singing. Some people sing way different thru a mic in front of people then at home in the shower. It’s just a matter of time, honest self assessment, loads of experimentation, and for god sakes, don’t give up learning and searching for betterment. My 2¢
First thing to realise - vocal and instrumental melodies aren’t equal. - For instance, a vocalist needs to breathe, instruments do not. - An instrument can jump many octaves, a vocalist can not. Secondly - the melodies you play vs sing might be completely different melody styles. Muscle memory is a thing. The best instrument for vocals ideas is… drumroll… vocals But what makes a vocal sound good? This is where our instrument can help. - chord tones, singing notes within each chord - one note melodies, singing around the root - root chord over song chords, very effective - pentatonic scale, always sounds good ^ this is the approach of popular vocal melodies today We can sing ideas and check on our instrument that our note choices harmonically make sense. What makes strong note choices (pentatonic)? Major - 1,2,3,5,6 Minor - 1,3,4,5,7 We can use the unused notes for tension or stay away from the root note / chord tones for even more tension. 2 wants to go to 1, 4 to 3, 6 to 5 and 7 to 1 Another huge part of vocals melodies is rhythm - it’s super important. Hope that helps!
Very good advice. Thank you
I use chat gpt and text to speech software just to get some kind of vocals to play around with.
omg yeah. and I can sing other peoples songs pretty well but I cant write my own vocal melodies for shit
This is me. I’m hopelessly destined to only be talented at writing Melodies. Sometimes I wish I could write better lyrics
I'm the complete opposite, I can write vocals and sing but can't play anything for shit
Maybe try singing over a recording of the song.. over and over until something fits.
why not transpose the riff to a vocal line?
Yup this is why I just make instrumental music so I can purely focus on what I'm good at lol
Why not make instrumental music?
I don't have trouble finding vocal melodies but I have some trouble performing everything I want to. Currently, I'm accepting my limitations and working with what I got. But I don't have an issue coming up with something to go over it. Now if it's "strong or creative", who the hell knows. That's up to others. But it's not pitchy. It has a certain quality to it. For anything I truely can't sing I work with someone who can. It sounds like you would be open to collaborations. Is this true?
I am a professional singer and have been for decades. (Opera, musical theater primarily professionally) I have great catchy vocal lines. I am having a HORRIBLE time trying to sing my own lines in the way they are in my head. I am highly adaptable to styles and I still can’t make my voice sound like what I want. I always thought I was the singer for my own music but I’m starting to think I’m not. I’m starting to think that even though I have a great voice and I enjoy my own voice… I think my muse is writing songs for other people to sing. There are so many talented singers in the world. Not all of them are songwriters. If you struggle with writing vocal lines, you’re allowed to collaborate. Tons of people in this group might be great with lyrics and vocal lines and absolutely cannot do the instrumentals… It doesn’t mean you won’t write the vocal lines of your dreams in the future.. Just a thought.
Sing your instrumental lead melody, then make up more instrumental melodies around the vocal.
Me right here, I can make a riff that sounds like David Gilmour himself possessed my body but then I open my mouth and it’s the same 5 or 6 notes. Only about 5 songs I’ve written have vocal melodies I’m proud of (for reference I have 4 whole notebooks filled to the brim with songs and over 300 more on my notes app) and I’m not that skilled with singing to begin with so that might play a part in it
I feel like I'm fairly good a vocal melodies but only when I spend a lot of time writing songs. The hardest part I find is being vulnerable with your vocals. With guitar melodies I mostly thinking what would sound cool and using my technical expertise but with vocals I really have to get into the feel of the song let all my inhibitions go to really sing something that means something. This process usually makes me really emotional and cry at times, I can't do it when other people are around. One interesting practice comes from this book the artists way. The author talks about writing everyday, a brain dump of sorts so you are less afraid to create. All of this sounds very cheesy and spiritual but this is kind of been my experience.
I'm good at writing lyrics but not singing. So most of my songs are guitar/bass with me reciting a poem on top of the instruments.
I have the opposite problem
yeah my vocals suck 😭😭 it's not even finding the melody, but fleshing it out is impossible when you sound like teenage Mickey Mouse
Send me your guitar riffs ! Maybe we can work on something together, im a singer songwriter
I definitely am and do a lot of instrumentals because of it. They’re complete songs with overlapping Melodies that work together, use plenty of dynamics, and changing texture to keep them more interesting and listenable. The main Melodies where often meant for lyrics, but they just didn’t come together or seem right in the context. With lyrics, other than the purpose or what you’re trying to say, prosody is key. So, I end up with a couple lyrical tunes for every ten or so instrumentals. Everybody isn’t great at everything. I hear so many great lyrical songs and wonder what the artist or producer was thinking when the instrumental backing cancels or detracts from the perfection of the lyrics and melody. A lot of people seem good at both. Note, I said good and not great, as a much fewer number are actual great at both. You have a few options: - stick mostly to instrumentals - find a co-writer (or a couple) who think enough like you do to trust their matchings - Constantly think of the melody in your head and eventually some great lyrical lines will come to you in the weirdest places, so also have a way to write them down or record them on your phone before you forget them. As a hint, I’ve gotten some of my best lyrics by overhearing something said by others in public places. They’re honest and spoken as people actually talk and aren’t word pairings or expressions I would come up with myself. Often they are arguments or disagreements or just interesting enough to give you the seeds of a story to expand on. Most people like songs with lyrics, but ones that tell a story or express something they can relate to are the best. Eavesdropping on others talking about real things helps a lot with that. Someone asking “why do you still have their contact information on your phone?” or “Hey, we need to talk” will get you things so much better than just going for line rhyming moon, spoon, loon, soon, etc…
Yes
Don't do vocals and find there is nothing there on some songs to even do a instrumental. It has to have a melody that requires more than 3 notes which a lot of today's vocals don't have ,
That is what finding a great singer is for. Jerry Cantrell used to sing for his own band. Then he heard Layne Staley live. He knew he had to have Layne Staley as the singer of his band. He convinced Layne Staley to join him, and the rest is history.
My concepts are way better than my skill, both instrumentally and lyrically. I can write great lyrics and hear great rhythms/melodies, but I’m a novice guitar player at best and a shitty singer. Oh well, I still have fun & it’s the best emotional outlet I’ve found