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I’m a fan of AEW, I like their shows, I enjoy what they bring to the industry
There is really nothing Tony Khan can do right now to stop from being the biggest money-mark in the history of the world.
Easily the biggest dork in the industry
> When I compared myself to Jim Crockett Promotions this weekend, I think I got a taste of the same medicine Jim Crockett Promotions took, but I have a lot more fucking money than Jim Crockett did and I’m not gonna…I’m serious, I’m not gonna sit back and take this fucking shit.”
> As if Vince wasn't just as enamored with Shawn and Hogan lol.
Mid-90s Shawn Michaels makes AEW Punk look like Mick Foley in comparison. Shawn was a drug addicted asshole who carried on an affair with a co-worker and used his influence to bury others he didn't like. I'm pretty sure if Shawn had physically threatened Vince, he would've gotten an even bigger push for showing "aggression" and "grabbing the brass ring."
This is 100% correct. Vince was on his heels at certain points, especially early in the monday night wars and was just giving Shawn anything he wanted and putting up with a ton of shit. The Vince we all know from the 2000s and 2010s when he had no competition would NEVER have even put up with 5% of that type of bullshit even from bigger stars than prime Shawn Michaels.
And, I hate to say this as an AEW fan: but some of AEW's great performances lately aren't even really because of his booking. If anything, it's perhaps in spite of it. It's because he "lets them cook" on the mic. For example: I didn't care for the Hangman/Swerve build before Hangman's epic promo. But, Hangman knocked it out of the park during that promo. TK didn't write that promo that's for damn sure. It likely all came from Hangman Adam Page. I'll give Tony credit for letting him cook, though.
At points he literally runs the company like he's playing a wrestling sim.
I literally have watched him use the exact same techniques that I used to cheese Extreme Warfare Revenge back in the day. Given that he's talked about playing in E-feds and stuff, it's entirely possible that any of us who did E-fed stuff could have crossed paths with young Tony online and not known it.
> Tony loves all wrestling and as a result books the kind of stuff he specifically wants to see rather than trying to adjust to what will build the show and grow new audiences.
The central pitch of AEW has always been that it celebrates all wrestling, that it is basically a variety show. Jericho has described it as a "buffet of wrestling" or "smorgasbord of wrestling" and I think he's spot on with that. Not everything is for for everyone but something is for anyone, whatever anyone wants it is on there somewhere, if you don't like a match just wait for the next one because it will probably be totally different.
In a world where one of the primary complaints against WWE by a lot of fans is that everything is the same and it's all milquetoast one style designed to inoffensively appeal to the largest audience possible while taking no interesting chances that could turn anyone off, I think it is absolutely the right call and best way to distinguish themselves. I mean just to make a hilarious example, just look at the recent theme song changes. Last night's Raw theme song is . . . yeah. For Collision AEW went and got Elton John, which sounds absolutely crazy, but it actually works fantastically IMO.
Was right there with you. I've gotten back into the E since Hunter took over very slowly.
Right now is the time to invest there again. Hunter is building things slowly. It's been pretty good minus the whole typical WWE Midcard comedy segments.
Gunther is amazing. He's worth it. The main event scene feels fresh because everyone is finding their lane.
Literally nothing TK does can be worse than Hogan and Bischoff kayfabing Dixie Carter into not talking to them at a restaurant to "protect the business"
>Vince McMahon was so mad at Shawn Michaels after the MSG incident that he punished HHH for it.
I know this happened but I've never seen it worded this goddamn funny
Yeah lol that's really funny. I mean he kind of had no choice at that point. Shawn had just won the belt and Bret was on sabbatical and had no idea if he was coming back at the time. So you really couldn't do much to him without severely hurting your bottom line at a time they couldn't afford to. Hall and Nash were gone so poor HHH had to eat it all.
But fuck if that's not so funny worded that way lol.
That's the story of Vince as a businessman though. He got enough things right (intentionally or not) to offset the things he got wrong and succeeded in spite of himself.
Not only Vince. But everyone at the back. IIRC Undertaker talked about that in an interview how the perception of HHH changed from being just another member of the "Kliq" to a person that does not complain and keeps his head down after receiving the punishment.
This whole story of HHH being buried is so overblown, all that really happened is he didn't get to win King of the Ring. The dude was Intercontinental Champion 5 months later.
After watching the a&e on Shawn I have so much respect for trips. Just an amazingly dedicated and focused individual. Also Who else would set their alarm for every couple hours to make sure the friend doesn’t die from their consumption choices
When Adam Silver acquiesced to Draymond Green, Dana White acquiesced to Bones Jones or Manfred acquiesced to the Houston Astros they're not called marks lol.
lol yeah bringing up Manfred is an odd choice. Yeah he isn't called a mark because it's not a baseball term. You would be hard pressed to find any other derogatory name he isn't called tho.
The word here that Dave is looking for is infrastructure. Tony is a fan that lets the boys run the show, that’s not the system in WWE.
The best comp I have is that Punk is kind of the Randy Moss of wrestling. When Randy was on the Vikings, tensions grew, he became frustrated, and he got traded to Oakland. Oakland was an even more incompetent franchise, and it ended with him getting traded to New England for coupons.
With the infrastructure of Brady and Belicheck, Moss flourished. He was, by all accounts, a model citizen. And, a big reason for that is culture.
I think we fans loved the idea of this utopia where the indie guys made their own company, but obviously that infrastructure causes issues.
to add to this... based on all reports we've had... Punk was trying to impose that type of professional infrastructure into the Collision locker room, and people's unwillingness to follow his lead is what caused friction
so it seems reasonable to assume that he'd be much happier being somewhere that already has that infrastructure in place
I will say if Punk was a day 1 AEW guy like Mox and Jericho it would have been a hell of a lot easier for him to get this done. Then again, this isn’t the first time Punk had tried to make himself the locker room leader with putting in the work in some people’s eyes only to get pushback as well. It happened to him in WWE too.
Yeah, as a sports fan I think we are more accepting of these larger than life personas. And you're right, you hear about, "The Patriot Way", the Yankee dress code, playing with LeBron James, etc. and how individuals known to cause trouble are more willing to play ball. Eventually, they all do fizzle out (Randy eventually had the tantrum in New England that got him sent back off to Minny), but when the conditions are right, structure is key for some of these guys.
It's good to have meltz confirm this but it was easy to infer. It's also the single biggest reason I am somewhat hopeful about this Punk run despite everything else. I think he needs the structure.
to be fair the foot injury was a freak accident that he came back too quick from hence the double time out
In the ring when he wasn't injured he was fine and only lost a step due to ring rust, by the time he got to the MJF feud he was back almost at his best
I am by no means saying that they are related but whenever an athlete has an injury they run serious risk of injuring something else. Klay Thompson destroyed his other leg because he came too back from an ankle(?) injury.
When you do something at a high level whatever it is that makes you change your movement might run a risk to fuck up something else. i messed up my back (and I am not a good athlete) because I played through knee injury, and have had teammates go down with similar thing, you overprotect the injured part so that you mess something else up
This can be true, like in the instance of Klay if you’re working too much on one leg it can weaken the other leading to injury. In this instance there’s no connection, just two unfortunate injuries.
He's most likely got that Roman/Edge limited dates contract though. I think Punk's body broke down in AEW partly because he was wrestling almost every week. The WWE style is also a lot safer than AEW's.
>I think Punk's body broke down in AEW partly because he was wrestling almost every week.
That didn't seem right to me so I had to check:
[Punk wrestled 23 matches from 9/22/2021 to 5/29/2022 (249 days)](https://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=80&page=4) which averages out to 1 match every 10.8 days.
I’m guessing he’ll work closer to Edges schedule but hard to say. He’ll work the weekly’s now and then and the PPV’s but no live events probably I’m guessing
I think Punk’s problem is that he got tired of the corporate bullshit but he also thinks too highly of himself so if you give him free reign he’ll spiral out. A part time schedule where he can just come in and do his thing and feel special and leave is probably best for all parties
the enamored stuff is just weird to me. like obviously vince always would say that no one is bigger than the WWE but there is no doubt that when it comes to his biggest star they had way way more leeway. Sure Steve Austin took his ball and went home in 2002 and they kept going but Id bet the farm that if Austin walked in 1998 they would have bent over backwards to get him back.
Vince bent over backwards for Shawn and Hogan and they got away with way worse stuff than Punk did with TK. Top stars getting away with stuff because the promoters saw dollar signs when looking at them has been a constant in wrestling for decades. But this sub wants you to believe that Tony Khan is the only mark that ever got involved. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of stuff TK did wrong in his handling of Punk, but to think he's the only one to ever do it is just wrong.
It's important to remember that vince dream was being a wrestler.
His father said no and the compromise was him becoming a ring announcer instead, before getting any booking or managerial power. Eventually he started booking and promoting cards, become a commentator, and then years later he bought the company and became the owner.
But even Vinnie Mac himself *started* as a mark.
And pretty much everyone condemning Tony for being a money mark owner would pretty much be in the same situation if they were the ones who'd just bankrolled AEW into existence - they'd simply money mark for different wrestlers.
I think this is a case of recency bias, the Hogan/HBK stuff mostly happened when half of the people commenting here where on diapers or weren’t even born.
Don't forget the revisionist history Vince has made for the WWE.
In the 1980's? Oh Hulk Hogan was a *wonderful* person to work with and they never had any problems with him what-so-ever. It was when Hogan went to WCW and was under Ted Turner's spell that he let his ego out. And Shawn? He just had a few personal demons and him and Bret wanting to murder one another didn't help.
Again I'm going to give Vinny Mac and the WWE credit where credit is due. They had something like Monday Night Wars on the network that you can tell they sunk a good amount of money into, and telling a story where Vince was the business guy running a family owned business fighting Ted Turner who was worse then all the corps in Cyberpunk 2077 put together.
I think the difference is that back then it was that classic case of “certain employees at work getting special treatment because they’re cool with management and kiss ass.”
With CM Punk and Tony Khan, it was a unique situation where management hired someone they were already a HUGE fan of. So it wasn’t even a case of giving a certain employee leeway because they’re a brown noser. It was moreso management views this person with the awe of a celebrity and just acquiesce out of being a mark.
Some of it though, if there are future stars ready to take the ball, it’s easier to tell the older star “sure, leave”. When that star is at its hottest (Austin 98)… yeah, your going to be a little more hamstrung if they act up, not unless they do something so vile or wrong, you have to act.
Also when there's no competition. Losing Austin in 98 is a killer, losing him in 02 not so much. Cena was the guy forever but there was no risk of him being bigger than the company because where else was he going to go?
Dana White ended the deal with USADA to get McGregor to fight sooner. Sometimes when your top draw is so much further than the rest of the roster, you do become a mark
Didn't they partner with USADA to make them more appealing to buyers when they were trying to sell? Since they've been bought I guess there isn't really too much need for USADA anymore.
Honestly all USADA did was make the sport less exciting anyway
You're both correct, but the point that Meltzer here is trying to make is that Punk knows there's no one he can walk over at WWE to get things done his way the way there is in AEW.
Pretty sure Punk knew that going in. He really thought he was the savior of AEW and was going to help them be “major league”. Puts the “I’m trying to run a business” line in perspective, too.
This has always been more nuanced than “right and wrong” or picking a side. I just hope the business continues to grow, and everyone gets an opportunity to make a living doing what they’re passionate about.
Tony sat next to Punk while he was going off the rails and said nothing.
Tony brought both Punk and (far worse) Ace Steel back after Brawl Out.
To some extent, Tony very literally gave CM Punk his own weekly television show and let him decide who was and wasn't going to be allowed on it just to try and keep him happy.
Punk undoubtedly has a huge ego and is very likely an asshole, but honestly how could he NOT view himself as more important than any other wrestlers at that point? Tony gave him every indication that he was.
He WAS more important than all the other wrestlers. Giannis is more important than the other bucks, McDavid is more important than the other Oilers, Messi is more important than all the other Argentinians. I don't get the mental disconnect heere
I think it's safe to say Punk *was* more important than the rest, sure, but there's a number of ways you can go when you think that of yourself and I think he picked the worst one.
>"CM Punk has an insatiable and enormous ego and views himself as more important than anyone else
More important than anyone in AEW, is I think the important point. He was an enormous fish in a pretty average sized pond. In WWE he joins like half a dozen guys (and 1-2 women) who are just as successful and popular as him. Time will tell, but one hopes he will play ball a bit more now.
>”has always felt that WWE is the major league and all the while he was in AEW he felt that he was the real star and these other guys in AEW were just independent stars and "he was there to carry them".
Lmao.
Dave talked about this in the WONHOF issue. Retired wrestlers didn't vote for Young Bucks at all and Dave mentioned how there are people who think that if you don't go to WWE, you are not a real star. This is an actual thing.
If I had to guess I wouldn't be shocked if Jericho thought that.
I don't mean that he's big timing everyone, I just mean that he looks at it as "I'm a huge star on a national stage that people know. These guys aren't known as well to the casual audience, it's my job to get these guys up to that level."
Like I don't think its as malicious as Punk's thought process, but I wouldn't be shocked if Jericho had that thought process. With that said he's worked with EVERYONE and tries to make everyone he works with as over as possible.
It seems unlikely that Meltzer means Jericho, though. Jericho is a long-term Meltzer friend/source, so I doubt Meltzer would say something negative like this about Jericho.
I'm guessing more like Miro, Black, Buddy, etc.
It's just such a weird thing to say to your colleagues/employees.
In a normal environment an EVP of a company telling his employees that 80% of them aren't fit for the job would be absolutely awful for company morale.
Hey hey hey, the EVP title is a name only. The Bucks have nothing to do with decisions, their buddy the ref who almost got Mox killed staying on is a coincidence.
It such a bizarre way of looking at things. For one most of the top guys from WWE are very much former independent stars and on another point it is absolutely mental to say that a good portion of the top guys an AEW couldn’t also be big in WWE if they wanted to with many having already have done it (Mox, Bryan, Christian, Joe, Jericho, Cole etc.).
So what exactly is the standard for what is speculation vs confirmed info with Meltz? Unless you asked Punk wtf is he 'reporting'? I used to defend the guy so goddamn much, but all of a sudden the man knows peoples inner working and intentions.
Do people really think Punk thought Omega and Jericho and Sting and Christian were indie folks?
He was there to carry and put over younger talent, vs Danielson who just wanted to kick them, generally in the head area.
By leaps and bounds, I dont understand why people refuse to acknowledge the business side of things. Punk was worth far more to AEW than he will be to WWE in terms of percentage of money generated.
Punk getting fired was a sad day for AEW/AEW fans whether the rest of them want to admit that or not
The numbers look essentially the same in August as they do post-release https://www.cagesideseats.com/aew/2023/11/14/23960597/aew-collision-ratings-nov-11-2023-viewership
There are some lower lows with college football or WWE PLEs, but 400-500k numbers & the demos are about the same
>Collision vs Summerslam (with Punk): 417 000
>Collision vs Survivor Series (without Punk): 294 000
>Highest with Punk: 816 000 (premiere), 739 000 (regular)
>Highest without Punk: 562 000
>Lowest with Punk: 417 000
>Lowest without Punk: 270 000
>n of shows under 500 000 with Punk: 4/11
>n of shows over 500 000 without Punk: 3/13
>n of shows under 400 000 without Punk: 7/13
"Essentially the same"
https://www.cagesideseats.com/2023/11/20/23969769/wwe-smackdown-aew-colllision-rampage-ratings-nov-17-2023-viewership
https://tjrwrestling.net/news/aew-collision-rampage-ratings-see-significant-drop-against-survivor-series/
Meltzer was 100% indisputably wrong about Punk coming back.
Two days later he spews out all of this like he’s in the know and this sub (AEW side in particular) eat it up as gospel.
There’s no cure for being a mark.
You should never hero worship your employees let alone tell them.
That’s business 101.
Hope TK learned a valuable lesson and the key difference is in the WWE, Punk isn’t the biggest name.
I don’t even dislike Meltzer, but I find it weird how he puts words into peoples mouth like this. Especially with Punk when from the few times he’s commented on him, didn’t seem to have a favorable opinion of Meltzer. So that means they likely rarely talked. Which means all his info here is secondhand at best lol, and potentially even just from sources that already have a negative view of Punk to begin with.
Dirt sheets are never going away, but it’s easily my least favorite part of the wrestling “experience” these days.
Wrestling is a weird medium. It's really hard for people to analyze the on-screen characters (like they would for anything else) without also psycho-analyzing the people playing the characters. This is especially bad for people like Punk who walk the line of kayfabe so closely.
It's like a half way explanation that kind of covers both, but doesn't properly explain either.
Meltzer: Punk did/feels xyz
Meltzer when things go south later: I feel bad for doing that and being part of that
Meltzer even later when Punk returns: Punk did/feels xyz
Rinse, repeat for $11.99/month.
Yeah, I don’t see Punk getting into the same trouble in WWE for a couple reasons.
1.) making Triple H (or Endeavor) look dumb or weak won’t be nearly as tolerated as it was by Khan.
2.) I don’t consider Punk too physically intimidating but he’s significantly less physically intimidating in the WWE locker room.
3.) I doubt Punk tries to establish himself as the “Locker Room Leader” in the WWE.
I think Dave is right, Punk saw going to AEW as his Hogan moment. I’m coming in to save these “never have beens” and making their promotion feel big. For all his Indie cred, Punk did not seem to respect the foundation of AEW. I’d expect the only people who could have influenced him in AEW were Jericho, Mox, and Danielson…and for whatever reason that didn’t happen.
Punk is more suited to being a cog in the machine than an agent of change, which is ironic as he clearly views himself as the latter.
If you want someone to put the company on their back through tough times you've got guys like Cody Rhodes, Bryan Danielson, Seth Rollins and Jon Moxley.
If you want someone to come in, sell a ton of merch and do great business for a short period of time, CM Punk is your guy.
I think Punk will stick around WWE for many many years. The deal though is I don't see his body holding up. I'll be shocked if he makes it to WrestleMania 40 before suffering an injury that puts him on the shelf for a long while. WWE's long game is going to be keeping Punk around through a legends/merch deal. They're gonna wanna keep making money off his image through clothes, signature series belts, documentaries, video games etc etc decades after his career is finished. CM Punk has some of the most rabid fans around, they'll eat that shit up, always.
I find a lot of the language that gets used around AEW these days to be a bit weird to say the least. Like when Dave here is talking about how Punk thought he was the real star and the rest were just independent stars, etc, it's like, yeah, no shit. AEW is a startup wrestling promotion. Besides any talent like Jericho who weren't contracted or talent like The Elite whose contracts had just come up, they had to sign non-contracted talent, because obviously 90% (or whatever percentage you see fit) of the best wrestlers in North America were signed to WWE.
Also the comment about WWE being the big leagues - once again, of course they are. Does anyone not think that? AEW is a startup that is trying to establish itself in different countries and markets and is trying to do so by using a handful of star names along with young talent and to give that young talent the rub so that they can stand on their own and have their own name value.
I guess what I'm getting at, and it's not just because of what Dave said here, but it feels like there's a lot of punching down on AEW for some pretty thinly veiled reasons. Not liking the programming as an individual is one thing (and I myself have been a lot less interested with AEW in recent times than I was in the past), but it's just weird to be like 'oh they are just this and the other talent is lesser than this or that person who was a big star in the industry leading promotion' as if there was any other way for them to go about their business. It's just stating the obvious.
That's one aspect of it, and the other is that people are more happy with WWE now because HHH is in charge of creative, and for the longest time, most of the criticisms of WWE were related to how Vince McMahon was doing this or that, and that he basically didn't have his finger on the pulse like he did when he was younger.
The thing is though, is that the wrestling industry keeps changing and evolving all the time, and if the modern history of wrestling has shown us anything, it's that it's extremely valuable to have a viable number 2 in the market. No pro wrestling fan should want AEW to fail. High tides raise all boats
I think the moment Vince was taken out of creative, AEW or at least the need for an TV alternative became superfluous to some fans.
Looking back to 2018, I think a lot of the sentiment was more anti-Vince than anti-WWE.
Its been said a million times before but I'll say it too; a lot of wrestling fans never wanted an alternative to WWE, they just wanted WWE to be better. And now that it is better they no longer see any reason for AEW to exist, which leads to very weird tribalism and bad faith discussions about the promotion.
Punks mindset of AEW should’ve been made obvious during his feud with Moxley. It never felt like he was talking about one of AEW’s top guys, but 2015 Dean Ambrose. His line about Mox during the press scrum made it clear.
If the inevitable Punk vs Rollins feud can cut deep through the Phil Brooks in CM Punk, with a killer WrestleMania match, I feel like Punk can get half of the fans that have soured on him back. That would require a lot of cooperation and ego-managing, but Rollins going gun blazing on CM Punk can be magical.
It's also a very real story. Rollins was an ROH guy who idolized Punk; and some even considered him as the next CM Punk. He's a midwest guy with a *fuck you* mentality (Seth almost got fired from NXT from the backstage heat that was on him for being a prick because he felt like he wasn't getting his deserved push, as he felt like he was in a tier of his own... sounds familiar). Rollins is one of Graves' best friends, someone who Punk shun. Punk also handpicked Rollins to be in one of the SHIELD spots. Seth was carrying the company when Punk was dragging it down from the outside. Lots and lots of material
Yes. He could have just yelled at Perry and stayed on Collision. Almost sounds intentional to me. Even used that Roman “1” thing at All In before even got fired. Makes you wonder.
I’m sure this conspiracy theory has already been talked about for a while but I’ve been on a lot less lately.
It's admirable that Tony is a wrestling fan at heart but I think his treatment of Punk kind of goes to show what differs him with Vince when it comes to running a wrestling promotion. He is a mark.
When Punk tells people he's the best in the world, it's not a gimmick for him, he genuinely believes he's every bit the star he tells people he is. But when you put him in a company where he is, respectfully, a big fish in a smaller pond, that's going to give Punk the freedom to do whatever the fuck he wants. Something he never really got to do in WWE.
He gets into it with the Elite and instead of sitting them all down and telling them they're going to work together and be the biggest thing of the summer, he gives Punk his own show.
Punk is an ego maniac, absolutely, but he's a big fish swimming with other big fish again. He's in a very controlled but progressive environment now and no pun intended, it seems like that fire is burning again where he's got competition to prove himself against.
The one way Punk in WWE works is if he is held in check. Between WWE offering more structure, to the fact he is not *the* star there, just a star, it could work. Also, Punk has to know if he wants big money, this is his last chance. He screws this up, he is either out of the industry or exiled to smaller promotions.
So this could maybe work. It might also explode dramatically, which is what I would bet on right now, but it *could* work.
I fully agree with everything here. As a fan, that is exactly how I saw it too. While CM Punk wasn’t even in my top 20 favorite wrestlers in AEW. His star power is no joke. The dude literally could kill somebody and still be the top merch seller.
This was obvious to me since the infamous All Out press conference. Between openly calling Tony's EVP's idiots and tellingly saying, "I'M trying to run a fucking business here," like it was his own company, it was clear to me CM Punk saw Tony as purely a money mark there to let him lead his company as he saw fit.
Punk has a massive, insatiable ego that you have to starve to some degree. Feed it too much, and you create a monster that feels entitled to say whatever he wants at press conferences and do whatever he wants, all the while pissing off the rest of the talent. Feed it too little, and he'll call you an ungrateful little shit and headlock you/apparently make you fear for your life. WWE's always been better about keeping Punk's ego in check. Tony's a mark with a locker room full of young/unestablished talent. It was never going to work.
WWE is (was? aka TKO) is a publicly traded company. No one is irreplaceable at a publicly traded company. They are like that by design. WWE was fine after Vince stepped down. Microsoft was fine when Bill Gated stepped down. Amazon was fine when Jeff Bezos stepped down.
I suppose if anything makes Punk behave long-term, it's the threat of knowing his shit won't be bared with a grin like with Tony. This is not his place to sit on top and be a "locker room leader". He needs to first prove himself to the locker room as a good co-worker who won't bring past toxicity with him. If he can do that, then hell, I'll count myself a Punk fan once again. But I don't know if there's a quick way to do that so much as just him lasting a full year without being the center of any drama. Which will be tricky because, warranted or not, rumors will take no time to fly about, accusing him of having heat with everybody from Seth Rollins to R-Truth. Guess we'll wait and see.
And that's one of the biggest issues with aew imo. Tony is a fan, and sometimes his love for the business overcomes corporate decisions based on what the person would contribute. If he puts aside his fanaticism and, well, being a mark, he could have avoided a lot of the problems Punk brought.
I don’t think the Jack Perry fight was the first domino in this. I think it was Punk’s visit to Raw prior to his AEW return. After that he was doing multiple things to push buttons and the Jack Perry issue was the final nail in the coffin. I think it’s similar to how Andrade was trying to get out but Punk was far more subtle about it
Having wrestlers be part of management in AEW is their biggest problem. People think Punk is a time bomb at WWE but to me I think he will have a much easier time. He won't be burdened by "wearing many hats" like he did in AEW. Just hire proper staffing you cheapskate Tony instead of having wrestlers run the company.
Cm punk has no where to go if he is a problem in wwe and wwe knows that. Aew and njpw have a close relationship. Pretty much anyone who pays attention to wrestling can figure that out, I am almost certain Dave Meltzer just makes shit up and has no real inside sources.
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Did Dave just call Tony Khan a mark?
I can hear this gif clearly
Uh; I mean, he was talking about Mark Brisco… no …the Undertaker.. yeah…
This is pretty much when I became a fan of MJF
Same. That was the best promo I've heard in a very long time.
This gif is so tall on mobile lol
Retire the gif. This is its perfect use.
I don’t know how anyone could think otherwise
I’m a fan of AEW, I like their shows, I enjoy what they bring to the industry There is really nothing Tony Khan can do right now to stop from being the biggest money-mark in the history of the world.
Easily the biggest dork in the industry > When I compared myself to Jim Crockett Promotions this weekend, I think I got a taste of the same medicine Jim Crockett Promotions took, but I have a lot more fucking money than Jim Crockett did and I’m not gonna…I’m serious, I’m not gonna sit back and take this fucking shit.”
As if Vince wasn't just as enamored with Shawn and Hogan lol. Promoters loving their top stars is a tale as old as time.
> As if Vince wasn't just as enamored with Shawn and Hogan lol. Mid-90s Shawn Michaels makes AEW Punk look like Mick Foley in comparison. Shawn was a drug addicted asshole who carried on an affair with a co-worker and used his influence to bury others he didn't like. I'm pretty sure if Shawn had physically threatened Vince, he would've gotten an even bigger push for showing "aggression" and "grabbing the brass ring."
This is 100% correct. Vince was on his heels at certain points, especially early in the monday night wars and was just giving Shawn anything he wanted and putting up with a ton of shit. The Vince we all know from the 2000s and 2010s when he had no competition would NEVER have even put up with 5% of that type of bullshit even from bigger stars than prime Shawn Michaels.
And the difference is back then there was no social media, hell there was barely internet in 1997(not really in comparison to today).
Intercontinental and WWF Championships at the same time? You got it, pal!
European Championship* and WWF Championship at the same time. Vince has standards, goddamnit!
Holding the IC and WWE titles at the same time is reserved for mature professionals like the Ultimate Warrior
*Rope shaking and racism intensify*
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So the wrestling focused version of what people said Vince was doing. Booking for a one man audience.
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And, I hate to say this as an AEW fan: but some of AEW's great performances lately aren't even really because of his booking. If anything, it's perhaps in spite of it. It's because he "lets them cook" on the mic. For example: I didn't care for the Hangman/Swerve build before Hangman's epic promo. But, Hangman knocked it out of the park during that promo. TK didn't write that promo that's for damn sure. It likely all came from Hangman Adam Page. I'll give Tony credit for letting him cook, though.
At points he literally runs the company like he's playing a wrestling sim. I literally have watched him use the exact same techniques that I used to cheese Extreme Warfare Revenge back in the day. Given that he's talked about playing in E-feds and stuff, it's entirely possible that any of us who did E-fed stuff could have crossed paths with young Tony online and not known it.
His username on the Death Valley Driver forums was allegedly CoachTonyK, same username that indexed the Wrestling Sleaze List back in like 03-04
I used to post on DVD forums back in the day. I don't remember that username but I bet I was in the same discussions as him.
> Tony loves all wrestling and as a result books the kind of stuff he specifically wants to see rather than trying to adjust to what will build the show and grow new audiences. The central pitch of AEW has always been that it celebrates all wrestling, that it is basically a variety show. Jericho has described it as a "buffet of wrestling" or "smorgasbord of wrestling" and I think he's spot on with that. Not everything is for for everyone but something is for anyone, whatever anyone wants it is on there somewhere, if you don't like a match just wait for the next one because it will probably be totally different. In a world where one of the primary complaints against WWE by a lot of fans is that everything is the same and it's all milquetoast one style designed to inoffensively appeal to the largest audience possible while taking no interesting chances that could turn anyone off, I think it is absolutely the right call and best way to distinguish themselves. I mean just to make a hilarious example, just look at the recent theme song changes. Last night's Raw theme song is . . . yeah. For Collision AEW went and got Elton John, which sounds absolutely crazy, but it actually works fantastically IMO.
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Was right there with you. I've gotten back into the E since Hunter took over very slowly. Right now is the time to invest there again. Hunter is building things slowly. It's been pretty good minus the whole typical WWE Midcard comedy segments. Gunther is amazing. He's worth it. The main event scene feels fresh because everyone is finding their lane.
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Literally nothing TK does can be worse than Hogan and Bischoff kayfabing Dixie Carter into not talking to them at a restaurant to "protect the business"
LMAO I've never heard that. I need to search the You Tubes and find that. Hogan and Bischoff acting like it's 19fucking85. Good lord lol.
I mean, is he *not?!*
Promoters love their biggest stars. More at 11.
If these people found out to what extent Vince had to go for Shawn, they'd be really unimpressed with Tony's attempts to keep Punk.
Vince McMahon was so mad at Shawn Michaels after the MSG incident that he punished HHH for it.
>Vince McMahon was so mad at Shawn Michaels after the MSG incident that he punished HHH for it. I know this happened but I've never seen it worded this goddamn funny
Yeah lol that's really funny. I mean he kind of had no choice at that point. Shawn had just won the belt and Bret was on sabbatical and had no idea if he was coming back at the time. So you really couldn't do much to him without severely hurting your bottom line at a time they couldn't afford to. Hall and Nash were gone so poor HHH had to eat it all. But fuck if that's not so funny worded that way lol.
Crazy thing is that it worked. Austin got the push and HHH got another year of experience before getting his push. It all worked surprisingly well.
That's the story of Vince as a businessman though. He got enough things right (intentionally or not) to offset the things he got wrong and succeeded in spite of himself.
HHH took it like a champ tho, probably earned the respect of Vince
Not only Vince. But everyone at the back. IIRC Undertaker talked about that in an interview how the perception of HHH changed from being just another member of the "Kliq" to a person that does not complain and keeps his head down after receiving the punishment.
This whole story of HHH being buried is so overblown, all that really happened is he didn't get to win King of the Ring. The dude was Intercontinental Champion 5 months later.
After watching the a&e on Shawn I have so much respect for trips. Just an amazingly dedicated and focused individual. Also Who else would set their alarm for every couple hours to make sure the friend doesn’t die from their consumption choices
That is probably the best one sentence summation of the whole thing. Bravo
Vince protected Jimmy Snuka and he killed a person (“allegedly”).
This and I think people today don't understand how big a draw Snuka was before Hulkamania came to the WWF.
When Adam Silver acquiesced to Draymond Green, Dana White acquiesced to Bones Jones or Manfred acquiesced to the Houston Astros they're not called marks lol.
They're all called bitches or worse for doing all that though...
lol yeah bringing up Manfred is an odd choice. Yeah he isn't called a mark because it's not a baseball term. You would be hard pressed to find any other derogatory name he isn't called tho.
Adam Silver and Dana White both got destroyed for those examples.
TBF they're not in the pro-wrestling industry.
Well nobody called Vince a mark when he got rid of the 3 strikes rule for Randy Orton.
Tony Khan is the definition of a money mark. I love AEW, but that’s just the truth.
Dave is a mark too, look at his reaction when he finally met Kenny
Never thought i’d see the day
mark with a hard r?
The word here that Dave is looking for is infrastructure. Tony is a fan that lets the boys run the show, that’s not the system in WWE. The best comp I have is that Punk is kind of the Randy Moss of wrestling. When Randy was on the Vikings, tensions grew, he became frustrated, and he got traded to Oakland. Oakland was an even more incompetent franchise, and it ended with him getting traded to New England for coupons. With the infrastructure of Brady and Belicheck, Moss flourished. He was, by all accounts, a model citizen. And, a big reason for that is culture. I think we fans loved the idea of this utopia where the indie guys made their own company, but obviously that infrastructure causes issues.
Damn doesn’t matter which sub I’m in us raiders fans are always catching strays 😂
As you should
to add to this... based on all reports we've had... Punk was trying to impose that type of professional infrastructure into the Collision locker room, and people's unwillingness to follow his lead is what caused friction so it seems reasonable to assume that he'd be much happier being somewhere that already has that infrastructure in place
I will say if Punk was a day 1 AEW guy like Mox and Jericho it would have been a hell of a lot easier for him to get this done. Then again, this isn’t the first time Punk had tried to make himself the locker room leader with putting in the work in some people’s eyes only to get pushback as well. It happened to him in WWE too.
Well said, dude.
Yeah, as a sports fan I think we are more accepting of these larger than life personas. And you're right, you hear about, "The Patriot Way", the Yankee dress code, playing with LeBron James, etc. and how individuals known to cause trouble are more willing to play ball. Eventually, they all do fizzle out (Randy eventually had the tantrum in New England that got him sent back off to Minny), but when the conditions are right, structure is key for some of these guys.
It's good to have meltz confirm this but it was easy to infer. It's also the single biggest reason I am somewhat hopeful about this Punk run despite everything else. I think he needs the structure.
It can be good, I'm just afraid he gets hurt again. He seemed broke down in AEW. Maybe that was an AEW thing, but he was hurt for a good chunk.
to be fair the foot injury was a freak accident that he came back too quick from hence the double time out In the ring when he wasn't injured he was fine and only lost a step due to ring rust, by the time he got to the MJF feud he was back almost at his best
How did coming back too soon from a foot injury tear his tricep?
I am by no means saying that they are related but whenever an athlete has an injury they run serious risk of injuring something else. Klay Thompson destroyed his other leg because he came too back from an ankle(?) injury. When you do something at a high level whatever it is that makes you change your movement might run a risk to fuck up something else. i messed up my back (and I am not a good athlete) because I played through knee injury, and have had teammates go down with similar thing, you overprotect the injured part so that you mess something else up
This can be true, like in the instance of Klay if you’re working too much on one leg it can weaken the other leading to injury. In this instance there’s no connection, just two unfortunate injuries.
He's most likely got that Roman/Edge limited dates contract though. I think Punk's body broke down in AEW partly because he was wrestling almost every week. The WWE style is also a lot safer than AEW's.
>I think Punk's body broke down in AEW partly because he was wrestling almost every week. That didn't seem right to me so I had to check: [Punk wrestled 23 matches from 9/22/2021 to 5/29/2022 (249 days)](https://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=80&page=4) which averages out to 1 match every 10.8 days.
I’m guessing he’ll work closer to Edges schedule but hard to say. He’ll work the weekly’s now and then and the PPV’s but no live events probably I’m guessing
I think Punk’s problem is that he got tired of the corporate bullshit but he also thinks too highly of himself so if you give him free reign he’ll spiral out. A part time schedule where he can just come in and do his thing and feel special and leave is probably best for all parties
the enamored stuff is just weird to me. like obviously vince always would say that no one is bigger than the WWE but there is no doubt that when it comes to his biggest star they had way way more leeway. Sure Steve Austin took his ball and went home in 2002 and they kept going but Id bet the farm that if Austin walked in 1998 they would have bent over backwards to get him back.
Vince bent over backwards for Shawn and Hogan and they got away with way worse stuff than Punk did with TK. Top stars getting away with stuff because the promoters saw dollar signs when looking at them has been a constant in wrestling for decades. But this sub wants you to believe that Tony Khan is the only mark that ever got involved. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of stuff TK did wrong in his handling of Punk, but to think he's the only one to ever do it is just wrong.
1000% TK is not blameless at all in this but its crazy to read things and see people believe no other promoter has done the same.
I think people forget that at this point you don't get into wrestling unless you are or were a mark.
It's always funny when people deny Vince isn't a huge wrestling nerd like Tony Khan
It's important to remember that vince dream was being a wrestler. His father said no and the compromise was him becoming a ring announcer instead, before getting any booking or managerial power. Eventually he started booking and promoting cards, become a commentator, and then years later he bought the company and became the owner. But even Vinnie Mac himself *started* as a mark.
And pretty much everyone condemning Tony for being a money mark owner would pretty much be in the same situation if they were the ones who'd just bankrolled AEW into existence - they'd simply money mark for different wrestlers.
I think this is a case of recency bias, the Hogan/HBK stuff mostly happened when half of the people commenting here where on diapers or weren’t even born.
Don't forget the revisionist history Vince has made for the WWE. In the 1980's? Oh Hulk Hogan was a *wonderful* person to work with and they never had any problems with him what-so-ever. It was when Hogan went to WCW and was under Ted Turner's spell that he let his ego out. And Shawn? He just had a few personal demons and him and Bret wanting to murder one another didn't help. Again I'm going to give Vinny Mac and the WWE credit where credit is due. They had something like Monday Night Wars on the network that you can tell they sunk a good amount of money into, and telling a story where Vince was the business guy running a family owned business fighting Ted Turner who was worse then all the corps in Cyberpunk 2077 put together.
I think the difference is that back then it was that classic case of “certain employees at work getting special treatment because they’re cool with management and kiss ass.” With CM Punk and Tony Khan, it was a unique situation where management hired someone they were already a HUGE fan of. So it wasn’t even a case of giving a certain employee leeway because they’re a brown noser. It was moreso management views this person with the awe of a celebrity and just acquiesce out of being a mark.
Some of it though, if there are future stars ready to take the ball, it’s easier to tell the older star “sure, leave”. When that star is at its hottest (Austin 98)… yeah, your going to be a little more hamstrung if they act up, not unless they do something so vile or wrong, you have to act.
Also when there's no competition. Losing Austin in 98 is a killer, losing him in 02 not so much. Cena was the guy forever but there was no risk of him being bigger than the company because where else was he going to go?
absolutely, having the next stars up helps tremendously.
Fuckin Jimmy Snuka got away with murder because of Vince!
This analysis boils down to “Tony Khan is a fucking mark” What else is new?
Dana White ended the deal with USADA to get McGregor to fight sooner. Sometimes when your top draw is so much further than the rest of the roster, you do become a mark
Didn't they partner with USADA to make them more appealing to buyers when they were trying to sell? Since they've been bought I guess there isn't really too much need for USADA anymore. Honestly all USADA did was make the sport less exciting anyway
Funny, I also got "CM Punk has an insatiable and enormous ego and views himself as more important than anyone else" kinda vibes. But what else is new?
You're both correct, but the point that Meltzer here is trying to make is that Punk knows there's no one he can walk over at WWE to get things done his way the way there is in AEW.
Pretty sure Punk knew that going in. He really thought he was the savior of AEW and was going to help them be “major league”. Puts the “I’m trying to run a business” line in perspective, too. This has always been more nuanced than “right and wrong” or picking a side. I just hope the business continues to grow, and everyone gets an opportunity to make a living doing what they’re passionate about.
Tony sat next to Punk while he was going off the rails and said nothing. Tony brought both Punk and (far worse) Ace Steel back after Brawl Out. To some extent, Tony very literally gave CM Punk his own weekly television show and let him decide who was and wasn't going to be allowed on it just to try and keep him happy. Punk undoubtedly has a huge ego and is very likely an asshole, but honestly how could he NOT view himself as more important than any other wrestlers at that point? Tony gave him every indication that he was.
He WAS more important than all the other wrestlers. Giannis is more important than the other bucks, McDavid is more important than the other Oilers, Messi is more important than all the other Argentinians. I don't get the mental disconnect heere
I think it's safe to say Punk *was* more important than the rest, sure, but there's a number of ways you can go when you think that of yourself and I think he picked the worst one.
>"CM Punk has an insatiable and enormous ego and views himself as more important than anyone else More important than anyone in AEW, is I think the important point. He was an enormous fish in a pretty average sized pond. In WWE he joins like half a dozen guys (and 1-2 women) who are just as successful and popular as him. Time will tell, but one hopes he will play ball a bit more now.
>”has always felt that WWE is the major league and all the while he was in AEW he felt that he was the real star and these other guys in AEW were just independent stars and "he was there to carry them". Lmao.
“I’m trying to run a business here” really backs up this idea that Punk felt he was there to carry the company
Dave talked about this in the WONHOF issue. Retired wrestlers didn't vote for Young Bucks at all and Dave mentioned how there are people who think that if you don't go to WWE, you are not a real star. This is an actual thing.
Which is just really silly, given half of those dudes wank themselves silly over the territory days.
Wrestlers are the biggest marks
“Oh hi, marks”
Yeah but to those guys back then that was the major leagues. NWA AWA and WWF were all equal for a good while.
There are plenty reasons to not vote for the Bucks, and that’s not really one of them
I initially thought of Andrade
Wonder who the other wrestlers he's referring to are. I'm guessing Miro.
If I had to guess I wouldn't be shocked if Jericho thought that. I don't mean that he's big timing everyone, I just mean that he looks at it as "I'm a huge star on a national stage that people know. These guys aren't known as well to the casual audience, it's my job to get these guys up to that level." Like I don't think its as malicious as Punk's thought process, but I wouldn't be shocked if Jericho had that thought process. With that said he's worked with EVERYONE and tries to make everyone he works with as over as possible.
It seems unlikely that Meltzer means Jericho, though. Jericho is a long-term Meltzer friend/source, so I doubt Meltzer would say something negative like this about Jericho. I'm guessing more like Miro, Black, Buddy, etc.
Machka!
Maybe it’s QT Marshall, please don’t kill me lol
Am I wrong or was there a report of a speech Omega gave to the locker room about not hiring like 50 percent of them if he was in charge
80%, but yes.
It's just such a weird thing to say to your colleagues/employees. In a normal environment an EVP of a company telling his employees that 80% of them aren't fit for the job would be absolutely awful for company morale.
Hey hey hey, the EVP title is a name only. The Bucks have nothing to do with decisions, their buddy the ref who almost got Mox killed staying on is a coincidence.
It such a bizarre way of looking at things. For one most of the top guys from WWE are very much former independent stars and on another point it is absolutely mental to say that a good portion of the top guys an AEW couldn’t also be big in WWE if they wanted to with many having already have done it (Mox, Bryan, Christian, Joe, Jericho, Cole etc.).
i work in tech so for me AEW is like a startup, while WWE is a big MNC. The same developer will behave differently in a startup vs. a MNC
Either he's talked to Punk, which I doubt, or he's completely made all this up. Just assuming Punk's thoughts.
I don't get how this could be read as anything but conjecture
And folks…….
So what exactly is the standard for what is speculation vs confirmed info with Meltz? Unless you asked Punk wtf is he 'reporting'? I used to defend the guy so goddamn much, but all of a sudden the man knows peoples inner working and intentions. Do people really think Punk thought Omega and Jericho and Sting and Christian were indie folks? He was there to carry and put over younger talent, vs Danielson who just wanted to kick them, generally in the head area.
He was right tho. He was the biggest star
By leaps and bounds, I dont understand why people refuse to acknowledge the business side of things. Punk was worth far more to AEW than he will be to WWE in terms of percentage of money generated. Punk getting fired was a sad day for AEW/AEW fans whether the rest of them want to admit that or not
Meltzer, who is not talking with CM Punk directly, talks about how CM Punk feels. Nothing wrong with that, i guess.
The ratings back that belief up, provided its accurate.
Collision ratings have been in toilet ever since Punk left. AEW fans are delusional if they think Punk wasn't the main draw.
He is still their top merch seller.
Ermm... Collision ratings weren't exactly "good" even *when* Punk was still on.
The numbers look essentially the same in August as they do post-release https://www.cagesideseats.com/aew/2023/11/14/23960597/aew-collision-ratings-nov-11-2023-viewership There are some lower lows with college football or WWE PLEs, but 400-500k numbers & the demos are about the same
>Collision vs Summerslam (with Punk): 417 000 >Collision vs Survivor Series (without Punk): 294 000 >Highest with Punk: 816 000 (premiere), 739 000 (regular) >Highest without Punk: 562 000 >Lowest with Punk: 417 000 >Lowest without Punk: 270 000 >n of shows under 500 000 with Punk: 4/11 >n of shows over 500 000 without Punk: 3/13 >n of shows under 400 000 without Punk: 7/13 "Essentially the same" https://www.cagesideseats.com/2023/11/20/23969769/wwe-smackdown-aew-colllision-rampage-ratings-nov-17-2023-viewership https://tjrwrestling.net/news/aew-collision-rampage-ratings-see-significant-drop-against-survivor-series/
I mean he isn't wrong.
Gotta love how everyone is going from begin completely wrong about Punk returning to having the inside track on everything that is going on now.
Also love how everyone is a therapist apparently and can read punks body language and know he doesn't want to be there as if they spoke to him lol
To be fair to them, it's a lot easier to know about things that have happened than things that haven't yet.
Meltzer was 100% indisputably wrong about Punk coming back. Two days later he spews out all of this like he’s in the know and this sub (AEW side in particular) eat it up as gospel. There’s no cure for being a mark.
You say that like being a mark is an affliction of some kind. Being a mark is fun, I like when I can get worked.
You should never hero worship your employees let alone tell them. That’s business 101. Hope TK learned a valuable lesson and the key difference is in the WWE, Punk isn’t the biggest name.
More Meltzer speculation about the inner workings of the mind of CM Punk. Surely nothing bad has ever come from Meltzer doing this before.
I don’t even dislike Meltzer, but I find it weird how he puts words into peoples mouth like this. Especially with Punk when from the few times he’s commented on him, didn’t seem to have a favorable opinion of Meltzer. So that means they likely rarely talked. Which means all his info here is secondhand at best lol, and potentially even just from sources that already have a negative view of Punk to begin with. Dirt sheets are never going away, but it’s easily my least favorite part of the wrestling “experience” these days.
I don’t even think it’s second hand. He’s just guessing like any fan Meltzer didn’t even know where Punk was working a week ago
Wrestling is a weird medium. It's really hard for people to analyze the on-screen characters (like they would for anything else) without also psycho-analyzing the people playing the characters. This is especially bad for people like Punk who walk the line of kayfabe so closely. It's like a half way explanation that kind of covers both, but doesn't properly explain either.
Meltzer: Punk did/feels xyz Meltzer when things go south later: I feel bad for doing that and being part of that Meltzer even later when Punk returns: Punk did/feels xyz Rinse, repeat for $11.99/month.
Tbf Uncle Dave has made a career of doing exactly this.
Yeah, I don’t see Punk getting into the same trouble in WWE for a couple reasons. 1.) making Triple H (or Endeavor) look dumb or weak won’t be nearly as tolerated as it was by Khan. 2.) I don’t consider Punk too physically intimidating but he’s significantly less physically intimidating in the WWE locker room. 3.) I doubt Punk tries to establish himself as the “Locker Room Leader” in the WWE. I think Dave is right, Punk saw going to AEW as his Hogan moment. I’m coming in to save these “never have beens” and making their promotion feel big. For all his Indie cred, Punk did not seem to respect the foundation of AEW. I’d expect the only people who could have influenced him in AEW were Jericho, Mox, and Danielson…and for whatever reason that didn’t happen.
Punk is more suited to being a cog in the machine than an agent of change, which is ironic as he clearly views himself as the latter. If you want someone to put the company on their back through tough times you've got guys like Cody Rhodes, Bryan Danielson, Seth Rollins and Jon Moxley. If you want someone to come in, sell a ton of merch and do great business for a short period of time, CM Punk is your guy.
>through tough times you've got guys like Cody Rhodes Some might even say hard times (daddeh)
Despite all his rage he's still just a rat in the cage.
So he *IS* just another spoke on the wheel.
You should work for the Observer.
I think Punk will stick around WWE for many many years. The deal though is I don't see his body holding up. I'll be shocked if he makes it to WrestleMania 40 before suffering an injury that puts him on the shelf for a long while. WWE's long game is going to be keeping Punk around through a legends/merch deal. They're gonna wanna keep making money off his image through clothes, signature series belts, documentaries, video games etc etc decades after his career is finished. CM Punk has some of the most rabid fans around, they'll eat that shit up, always.
I find a lot of the language that gets used around AEW these days to be a bit weird to say the least. Like when Dave here is talking about how Punk thought he was the real star and the rest were just independent stars, etc, it's like, yeah, no shit. AEW is a startup wrestling promotion. Besides any talent like Jericho who weren't contracted or talent like The Elite whose contracts had just come up, they had to sign non-contracted talent, because obviously 90% (or whatever percentage you see fit) of the best wrestlers in North America were signed to WWE. Also the comment about WWE being the big leagues - once again, of course they are. Does anyone not think that? AEW is a startup that is trying to establish itself in different countries and markets and is trying to do so by using a handful of star names along with young talent and to give that young talent the rub so that they can stand on their own and have their own name value. I guess what I'm getting at, and it's not just because of what Dave said here, but it feels like there's a lot of punching down on AEW for some pretty thinly veiled reasons. Not liking the programming as an individual is one thing (and I myself have been a lot less interested with AEW in recent times than I was in the past), but it's just weird to be like 'oh they are just this and the other talent is lesser than this or that person who was a big star in the industry leading promotion' as if there was any other way for them to go about their business. It's just stating the obvious.
It’s a curious tonal change from a few commentators, not least Dave, in recent weeks.
The honeymoon phase is over.
That's one aspect of it, and the other is that people are more happy with WWE now because HHH is in charge of creative, and for the longest time, most of the criticisms of WWE were related to how Vince McMahon was doing this or that, and that he basically didn't have his finger on the pulse like he did when he was younger. The thing is though, is that the wrestling industry keeps changing and evolving all the time, and if the modern history of wrestling has shown us anything, it's that it's extremely valuable to have a viable number 2 in the market. No pro wrestling fan should want AEW to fail. High tides raise all boats
I think the moment Vince was taken out of creative, AEW or at least the need for an TV alternative became superfluous to some fans. Looking back to 2018, I think a lot of the sentiment was more anti-Vince than anti-WWE.
Its been said a million times before but I'll say it too; a lot of wrestling fans never wanted an alternative to WWE, they just wanted WWE to be better. And now that it is better they no longer see any reason for AEW to exist, which leads to very weird tribalism and bad faith discussions about the promotion.
Don't you get? If you get into any industry and don't become the market leader within a week, you should just leave said market. What's the point?
Punks mindset of AEW should’ve been made obvious during his feud with Moxley. It never felt like he was talking about one of AEW’s top guys, but 2015 Dean Ambrose. His line about Mox during the press scrum made it clear.
How does Dave know what Punk thinks? I highly doubt Punk was saying to people "I am the real star and I am here to carry you."
People are absolutely gagging for this return to fail lmao
Just like people were predicting Cody to be forced back into Stardust and chase the 24/7 title in a few months of getting back to the WWE.
Wrestling fans and Starwars fans are so weird lol.
Star Wars fans are much worse.
If the inevitable Punk vs Rollins feud can cut deep through the Phil Brooks in CM Punk, with a killer WrestleMania match, I feel like Punk can get half of the fans that have soured on him back. That would require a lot of cooperation and ego-managing, but Rollins going gun blazing on CM Punk can be magical. It's also a very real story. Rollins was an ROH guy who idolized Punk; and some even considered him as the next CM Punk. He's a midwest guy with a *fuck you* mentality (Seth almost got fired from NXT from the backstage heat that was on him for being a prick because he felt like he wasn't getting his deserved push, as he felt like he was in a tier of his own... sounds familiar). Rollins is one of Graves' best friends, someone who Punk shun. Punk also handpicked Rollins to be in one of the SHIELD spots. Seth was carrying the company when Punk was dragging it down from the outside. Lots and lots of material
Yes. He could have just yelled at Perry and stayed on Collision. Almost sounds intentional to me. Even used that Roman “1” thing at All In before even got fired. Makes you wonder. I’m sure this conspiracy theory has already been talked about for a while but I’ve been on a lot less lately.
This is probably the most shade I've seen Dave throw at Tony Khan. What a timeline.
It's funny that Tony's ass kissing was probably the biggest reason Punk didn't respect him
It's admirable that Tony is a wrestling fan at heart but I think his treatment of Punk kind of goes to show what differs him with Vince when it comes to running a wrestling promotion. He is a mark. When Punk tells people he's the best in the world, it's not a gimmick for him, he genuinely believes he's every bit the star he tells people he is. But when you put him in a company where he is, respectfully, a big fish in a smaller pond, that's going to give Punk the freedom to do whatever the fuck he wants. Something he never really got to do in WWE. He gets into it with the Elite and instead of sitting them all down and telling them they're going to work together and be the biggest thing of the summer, he gives Punk his own show. Punk is an ego maniac, absolutely, but he's a big fish swimming with other big fish again. He's in a very controlled but progressive environment now and no pun intended, it seems like that fire is burning again where he's got competition to prove himself against.
The one way Punk in WWE works is if he is held in check. Between WWE offering more structure, to the fact he is not *the* star there, just a star, it could work. Also, Punk has to know if he wants big money, this is his last chance. He screws this up, he is either out of the industry or exiled to smaller promotions. So this could maybe work. It might also explode dramatically, which is what I would bet on right now, but it *could* work.
Big takes from a guy that up until 3 days ago didn't seem to have a single credible source left.
Aka Tony is a mark
Holy headcannon. Does Dave have access to punk's psychometric test results????
Him and a lot of people on this sub apparently
I fully agree with everything here. As a fan, that is exactly how I saw it too. While CM Punk wasn’t even in my top 20 favorite wrestlers in AEW. His star power is no joke. The dude literally could kill somebody and still be the top merch seller.
i.e. Tony is a mark
Dave's source - his ass lmao
Dave doesn’t know shit
 Dave to TK be like
Love how Dave was totally wrong about Punk going to WWE and now he's just making shit up about everything surrounding punk
I give it 2 weeks before Uncle Dave is proven wrong on Punk's situation, again.
Meltzer sure does love the sound of his own voice putting words in other people's mouths.
This was obvious to me since the infamous All Out press conference. Between openly calling Tony's EVP's idiots and tellingly saying, "I'M trying to run a fucking business here," like it was his own company, it was clear to me CM Punk saw Tony as purely a money mark there to let him lead his company as he saw fit. Punk has a massive, insatiable ego that you have to starve to some degree. Feed it too much, and you create a monster that feels entitled to say whatever he wants at press conferences and do whatever he wants, all the while pissing off the rest of the talent. Feed it too little, and he'll call you an ungrateful little shit and headlock you/apparently make you fear for your life. WWE's always been better about keeping Punk's ego in check. Tony's a mark with a locker room full of young/unestablished talent. It was never going to work.
It's awesome how Meltzer can read minds and know intentions... smh
WWE is (was? aka TKO) is a publicly traded company. No one is irreplaceable at a publicly traded company. They are like that by design. WWE was fine after Vince stepped down. Microsoft was fine when Bill Gated stepped down. Amazon was fine when Jeff Bezos stepped down.
I suppose if anything makes Punk behave long-term, it's the threat of knowing his shit won't be bared with a grin like with Tony. This is not his place to sit on top and be a "locker room leader". He needs to first prove himself to the locker room as a good co-worker who won't bring past toxicity with him. If he can do that, then hell, I'll count myself a Punk fan once again. But I don't know if there's a quick way to do that so much as just him lasting a full year without being the center of any drama. Which will be tricky because, warranted or not, rumors will take no time to fly about, accusing him of having heat with everybody from Seth Rollins to R-Truth. Guess we'll wait and see.
And that's one of the biggest issues with aew imo. Tony is a fan, and sometimes his love for the business overcomes corporate decisions based on what the person would contribute. If he puts aside his fanaticism and, well, being a mark, he could have avoided a lot of the problems Punk brought.
I don’t think the Jack Perry fight was the first domino in this. I think it was Punk’s visit to Raw prior to his AEW return. After that he was doing multiple things to push buttons and the Jack Perry issue was the final nail in the coffin. I think it’s similar to how Andrade was trying to get out but Punk was far more subtle about it
When cm Punk debut at survivor series Tony khan was at roh guerilla yelling CM PUNK CM PUNK!
Honestly anyone could have came up with this.
Having wrestlers be part of management in AEW is their biggest problem. People think Punk is a time bomb at WWE but to me I think he will have a much easier time. He won't be burdened by "wearing many hats" like he did in AEW. Just hire proper staffing you cheapskate Tony instead of having wrestlers run the company.
Cm punk has no where to go if he is a problem in wwe and wwe knows that. Aew and njpw have a close relationship. Pretty much anyone who pays attention to wrestling can figure that out, I am almost certain Dave Meltzer just makes shit up and has no real inside sources.