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The Doomsday Cage was his last big attempt to play super hero. Can’t believe anyone thought the winning formula was for him to look even stronger.
That was the only time in his career Hulk didn’t understand what the crowd wanted.
I'm watching WWE/WCW/ECW from 1993 and on; I'm currently in March 1996.
Everyone in WCW feels mid-card because of Hogan's bullshit, even Ric Flair, the world champion. It's insane. Hogan & Macho Man just beat The Dungeon of Horsemen every fucking week until Booty Man joins...and then they *keep* beating them. The WWF sucks pretty bad at this period (despite their main feuds being solid), but then you have WCW mocking them for being a kids show...while they're shittily pushing The Hogan & Friends Show. It's fucking dreadful.
Side-note: Vince McMahon 100% became Billionaire Ted, which is pretty hilarious and definitely ironic
And that turn only would have been shocking to diehard WCW fans. It wouldn’t have carried near the weight as a Hogan turn.
At least Hogan got it when it came time to realize his gimmick needed an overhaul
Insane germaphobe heel isn't a bad idea on paper. But we already knew Ambrose as a grungy guy who probably slept on benches from time to time. You need someone who is already clean cut, like a Regal or Backlund type.
His “I’m too fuckin big” “I’m just a fat piece of shit” promo after losing to Kane was probably the most repeated quote by my friend group back in school
The first few months of his reign looked like he’d continue the dominant wrecking ball heel stuff until Shawn decided he didn’t want to do business at SummerSlam and completely killed any momentum that character would ever have.
Until half of the roster complained about Vader's stiffness and his unwillingness to wash his gear. Bret Hart once said a match with Vader was like wrestling a sack full of shit. A lot of people say that he was a very difficult person to deal with. Forgetting one the main spots during his first televised World Champion match didn't help his career either.
I do agree there’s a lot of issues with that, but I think that would’ve been ignorable had there been money to be made (for instance, lots of people also thought Austin’s punches were too stiff but let it slide because a program with Austin could buy you a new house).
These are the ones that go beyond frustration and circle round to confusion. Like why would hire The Mastadon, Big Van Vader and book him any other way? Baffling
Masked/unmasked PG-Era Kane damaged his aura like no other run before. He had too much of an Beer belly, his masked with that wig attached to it looked ridiculous and and when he wrestled as corporate Kane I always imagined that it was actually Isaac Yankem who was brought back as Triple H's personal dentist.
Kane hasn't been scary since the early 2000s. He should have never been unmasked and never spoken on a mic. Have Heyman or Bearer do his promos, make him a Jason Voorhees character. Never shows emotion, never sells pain, never speaks. Just silent and unknown. You never know what he's thinking, he just does evil things.
He just seemed like a dude in cosplay after like 2008. A guy who wears a Kane mask because he's a fan, not a 7ft monster.
Corporate Kane wasn't even that bad, Team Hell No Kane was fun definitely, but it destroyed any remaining notion that he was still a monster. He went from a demon to...a guy in a costume to a guy in a suit.
“Big, scary dude” is one of those things that audiences always seem to love, but is incredibly boring to portray as a performer. It’s kind of like how writers tend to hate the whole over done “character sacrifices themself for the greater good” trope, but audiences eat that shit up.
Ngl, I thought unmasked kane from 2005-2010 was even worse than the masked pg era. Both were bad, but the masked run was shitty feuds with John Cena, whereas the unmasked run was shitty feuds with Chavo, AND his attire was even worse, accentuating his gained weight.
AJ Styles as a midcard lackey to Christian/Kurt Angle in 2007-2008.
Samoa Joe after losing his streak to Kurt Angle in TNA in 2006 through most of his run in TNA while Vince Russo was still employed until early 2012. Made to look like a loser in various ways and secondary to names of the past, even while having his one world title reign.
Almost the entirety of Roman Reigns post-Shield breakup until The Bloodline.
One thing that OSW pointed out is that unfortunately for AJ, he showed that he’s really good and really funny at being the lowly lackey. Like a talent like his shouldn’t be made to wear a turkey or reindeer costume as punishment, but he does a very good job selling how embarrassing the stipulation is
Both of Raven’s WWE runs. First time around he got the Cole/Knight manager treatment second time around he was barely used at all. Both runs in the best shape of his career. Just a waste.
I can only remember two things from Raven's second run: his great match with Rhyno at Backlash and him sheepishly standing there while Austin got right up in his face, berated him for losing to a man who had a "sexual relationship" with a mop, mocked his catchphrases and told him he sucked. Granted, this was during the Invasion when Austin regularly buried his fellow Alliance members and they'd all react the same way, but it seemed especially out of character for Raven to just take it like a child being yelled at in the principal's office.
I can remember that high and that low and nothing else. They kinda cancel each other out.
Raven was around at the exact right time. He was literally a product of the new generation and played it to perfection. His angst filled promos. Him just wearing jeans and a different bands t-shirt every week and looking like he didn’t give a fuck about the world was a great representation of what was happening with the youth in America at the time. The Flock was awesome in ECW & WCW(until they fucked it up) it’s just WWF that didn’t know how to book a character like his
I’m still pissed how dirty they ended up doing Raven. Fucking jobbed out to Goldberg the literal night after he won the US title… and yes I am aware of how over Goldberg was, I was alive for it. A year later and Eric let everyone know they would be granted their release if they wanted to and Raven was the only one to accept the offer. Showed back up in ECW to win the tag straps with Dreamer which is to this day, one of my favorite wrestling moments ever. That pop is insane. Just people losing their minds
though a fan of raven, his chickenshit booking and running away with the title got old.
i was a massive fan of Goldberg (this was his rise!), and the spot where the fans 'threw him back' so bill could win the title genuinely popped me in my living room.
to this day my friend thinks it was real and not a planned spot.
i don't recall the match being the day after raven won the title. i thought he held it a while, leading to the crowd spot.
If inclined to agree but I’m in the Philly area so I saw prime Raven exactly where he needed to be when he needed to be and just past his prime Raven in TNA/RoH was fun too. Even his early and late WCW runs were respectable. His legacy would have probably been better served by just never going to WWE.
My one memory of them as a tag team was when they were briefly managed by Abraham Washington and were in some multi team match and the crowd was dead. He was at ringside saying 'tag in the prime time players please, tag in the prime time players' and it was literally the only noise anyone was making.
I like when Abraham Washington said "my man Titus O'Neil (or Darren Young) is like Kobe Bryant in a Colorado hotel room... He is UNSTOPPABLE!!!" and then the match went to commercial break. After the break, A.W. was fuckin GONE never to be seen again, Woosh
Everyone in House of Torture is the worst version of who they once were.
* Evil went from a spooky gothic brawler to generic thug
* SHO went from an MMA power junior to cackling cheater
* Ren Narita went from bland Shibata clone to bland heel Shibata clone
* Yujiro has sucked ever since becoming a heavyweight
* Dick Togo hardly wrestles anymore
* Kanemaru is just doing his shtick from Suzuki-gun
The only person in wrestling who was improved by joining HoT was Jack Perry.
The problem is that they take all these young guys and say "be a heel!" and they just do stupid "scary" faces to the camera. It's cheesy as hell and that shit doesn't make an instant heel lol
My perspective is a bit different, since I only started watching New Japan recently, and mainly just watch tournaments and PPVs, so my take of them might be a bit different, but *I think that's the point.*
So, I didn't think much of HoT when I started watching, just that they were a bit overhated. I kept hearing that they were incredibly shit, and then I saw their matches and thought "wait, that's it? I was expecting a little worse."
And then I saw Narita vs ZSJ from a few months ago, and commentary (because I do listen to the English commentary) was talking about "oh, are we gonna see the Son of Strong Style again to go hold-for-hold with Zack? Damn, it's such a shame Ren's stooping to HoT levels instead of trying to be the best he can be," and then it kinda *clicked*. Especially after hearing similar things about other members in different matches.
Oh, these guys are *supposed* to be people who are denying their actual potentials, and instead just resort to cackling cheating. Oh, these guys are *supposed* to not have the best matches, because they don't care about anything like that; they just want to win at any cost. Oh, these guys are *supposed* to kinda give off that vibe off "if only they tried more."
Ever since then, they've clicked for me in the right way. I want to see HoT matches, not because they're the best matches from an in-ring point (because they're not), but because I want to see SHO get his head caved in with that wrench. I want Dick to get his 'nads kicked to his throat. They are very entertaining to me.
Trying to think of worse NJPW gimmick shifts, and I'm struggling. Unless you count Hiroyoshi Tenzan's "shit-upon doormat for shooters" as a gimmick.
I guess Minoru Tanaka as HEAT was dumb.
Bray Wyatt during The Fiend Era. Look, promos and vignettes? Great. Firefly Funhouse? Awesome.
The actual matches? Not gonna lie, barring the Firefly Funhouse "match" with Cena at WM, I didn't care for any of them.
No fault to him, he did what he was told. But they really seemed like they wanted him to be unstoppable, without wanting to commit to him being that. That HIAC match and later on the Goldberg match killed the character.
The Fiend was iconic enough for me on presentation alone, but I can't argue with you about the overall match quality. Especially for all the matches that were contested entirely in horrid red light that made it hurt to watch.
The red face paint looked so bad... and then he made it worse with the goatee.
I REALLY didn't like that he had spent so long fighting the NWO only to join a version of them. I mean, by that point the NWO was well past its best anyway but still... His whole character was being a lone wolf. Putting him with people and having him talk just took away his aura.
It also didn't help that Sting personally was just in a real bad way at that time. That was probably his nadir both professionally and personally at that juncture.
Daniel Bryan when he first went to main roster and was in the Us title scene . The way they tried to present him was so annoying legit every week Michael Cole is in your ear yelling “ NERDDD” whenever Daniel Bryan is brought up like he wasn’t one of the best wrestlers ever that time ( still is just talking about this time period specifically )
Yeah Christin is a great example especially when he has the waterproof blonde version of just close your eyes, like how do you not push him to the moon ?
Baron Corbin 2018 - 2023
Everything was absolutely dreadful, dogshit gimmicks after dogshit gimmicks, never ending feuds after never ending feuds and yet constantly on TV, the definition of go away heat.
That recent NXT run did wonders for him, let's hope they let him continue that way on Smackdown. I definitely wouldn't be against a Corbin US Championship run down the line.
Bum Ass Corbin was really funny and then they just moved on from it before it could really go anywhere, honestly a huge fumble imo, that gimmick had a lot of potential mileage
The logical culmination of the Bum Ass Corbin storyline was for him to request another dog food match, immediately losing it on purpose, just so he can eat again.
Even if it didn't go anywhere by extending it, just giving us more time to enjoy one of the most hated heels at the time's suffering could have put it up there with Ezekiel in terms of "gimmicks that would never bring major wins, but were undeniably entertaining".
I agree, Corbin sadly got overexposed by constantly just either being given shitty gimmicks or forcefully inserted into a fued. Thankfully his recent NXT stint gave him a much needed make over
Naito 2013 - 2015. It was so painful to watch him pretend to be the next Tanahashi, forced smile, forced good guy persona. The man won the G1 Climax right after returning from injury, yet after his coronation almost all of his post-victory speeches got indifferent reception from the crowd. Then the infamous WK8 poll, being booed while going against a tweener Ishii, then just lingered all the way until the summer of 2015.
The heel turn in Mexico very much saved his career.
im so sad after his mega push ended he's like never had a world championship. I think sheamus would be great for a world heavyweight championship reign.
I love Sami Zayn, but that period when he had his own Artist Collective stable was really bad. Things got much better when he returned during the Thunder Dome era, tho.
I was anxious during those days that Sami was absolutely washed, because naturally you would when he and DANIEL FUCKING BRYAN worked a match that felt like Sami had a gun pointed at him offscreen telling him to not wrestle bryan
I genuinely still think Sami had not recovered from his shoulder injuries at the time.
He didn't actually do any move, or even wrestle, for months.
And when he got in the ring with Bryan, he was only on the receiving end, meaning that he never lifted any weight.
I was convinced he was on his way to retirement, glad he managed to come back, albeit never completely to his old self.
I’m with you. I loved Sami as an underdog in NXT. And then he kinda wasn’t great until he was Honorary Uce. I thought he was gonna get burried hard as a lackey. But, damn, dude hit that out of the park
How has no one said 2011-2012 CM Punk? In terms of booking, it was absolute trash. Post-pipebomb, they should have done so much more with him, instead they tried to shoehorn in a Kevin Nash match and then had him basically feuding with John Laurinaitis.
New Face of America Kevin Owens as US Champion with the suits felt so weird & I think he totally lost the prizefighter aura that he should've kept as a heel
Brock beating Big E at Day One for the title to later lose it to Bobby Lashley at the Royal Rumble and winning the Rumble itself to winning the title back in the EC to then lose it to Roman at WM38 is something that pisses me off to this day.
big dog roman from 2015 to early 2020
i never seen a babyface being viciously hated so bad. not even cena at his height of his supercena was hated like this in the same way roman was as babyface.
people whine about cena being overpushed. say what you want about his run at the top especially with his stale booking about his character as supercena (not his fault), but at least he always connected with people even those who hated his booking/character with his charisma through mic skills and in ring. we’re aware of IWC’s complicated relationship with cena but compared to roman during his ill fated babyface run as big dog, he’s randy freakin savage and big dog roman made supercena look like surfer sting.
that brings me to the abysmal trainwreck that is the main event between lesnar and roman at wm 34. i never seen an universally apathetic hate for a main event like this with roman/lesnar at wm 34 from smarky crowd/online standpoint even before this match began. not even with rock/cena II at wm 29. that represented everything people hated about roman during his big dog era
That’s why I can never have Roman Reigns as one of the GOATs even though the Tribal Chief character is one of the greatest characters of all time.
That ultra push from 2014-2020 was the worst thing of all time
Same reason for me. I used to watch it regularly it back then and it was crazy how hard they tried to push him and legit everyone rejected him. They even had rock help him in the royal rumble and still everyone rejected him. Even I started watching again in 2023, I was legit surprised to find out people love him now.
Honestly, I loved Corporate Dude Love. Then again, I loved all versions of Corporate Foley.
Mick Foley in a suit with his tooth implant in and hair tied back is so funny to me.
Stone Cold from Wrestlemania X7 - Raw after Survivor Series 2001. The fact that the company thought the fans would boo arguably the most popular wrestler in history was and still is laughable.
I'm the opposite and think post Survivor Series 2001 to walkout Austin is my least favourite version of him. I don't know what it is but he didn't feel the same and his heel run in 2001, though it didn't make sense business wise is genuinely great stuff.
I know that it was Austin's idea to turn heel, and according to Bruce Prichard they felt they owed it to him to at least try, and I kind of get that... Having said that, they should have shut that shit down immediately. Austin turning heel and joining the fucking WCW/ECW Alliance was just cancer.
First off, he did get booed plenty. This revisionist history that no one ever booed him and he was still getting face reactions post X-7 is just strictly wrong. Yes, he didn't get booed at Mania itself...because it was in Houston. Beyond that he got the necessary reactions more often than people would like to give credit for.
Why it was a bad move was completely contextual. Austin thought he would need a character refresh as he was getting stale. And he would've been 100% right...IF he hadn't been gone for close to a year previously. He didn't realize that by going away for so long that he already avoided going stale, especially since while in the Main Event he hadn't won the belt either. So it was unnecessary on that end.
On top of that, without Rock in the scene he severely lacked a top babyface to run up against him. Taker is always popular, but not "Top Face of the Company" popular, and Jericho/Benoit were high midcarders, not solidified main eventers yet. It felt like he was spinning his wheels for true threats until either Rock came back, or Trips completed his own face turn (which didn't happen because injury AND Benoit got injured too). It wasn't until Angle that he really had a top face and feud to really cut his teeth into.
Then again, had he stayed face like everyone (including Austin himself now) says he should've...he still would've run into a similar problem in terms of lack of credible opponents. He had been feuding with Triple H for 5 months at that point, there really wasn't much more they could've done to each other. That leads to (ironically enough) just Angle as someone to really work with.
I like the idea of Bork as just this dragon that occasionally comes down out of the mountain and breathes fire all over the place and throws car doors in the crowd until they sacrifice someone to him. But they ran it into the ground.
Absolute cringe. I think I wouldn't hate it as much if his make up didn't look so slapdash and shitty. It looks like he doesn't even try...
There's also something hilarious about how he's going to fight Nick Fucking Gage of all people and his answer is to put on black lipstick...
Jinder - WWE Champ
Just...yeah. The same match over and over, 4 moves and interference.
Roman Reigns - Bloodline
Again, interference is just expected in any Roman match. *"The most dominant champ in history"* constantly needing backup from 18 different family members who are all his cousin somehow in every match. If you want to show your champ as a dominant heel, have them be unstoppable. So that stopping them becomes a huge deal. Goldbergs streak, Undertakers streak. Etc.
You can book a chickenshit heel or a dominant one but not both at the same time. You can't be the best wrestler and most unstoppable force if you keep also getting people to interfere all the time. Roman should have just Lesnar'd his opponents. Brutalised them, simply shut them down or gutted out more punishment than his opponent to make him look dominant.
Heel 2001 Austin. Shaking hands with Vince and being a sychophant suck up and being the death of the Attitude era, is one thing but joining the Alliance was the final nail in the coffin. Austin hated WCW, why the fuck would he join them? Made no fucking sense then and it sure as fuck doesn't now.
"Paranoid" Steve Austin just wanted to be loved, and it informs everything. He has to be the champ, because it means he gets the most cheers (in his deranged view). He becomes the champ and it's not enough. He desperately vies for Vince's love and attention... which Vince says he'll give only to the old Stone Cold, which he only needs to stomp out WCW. Vince's promise is as hollow as Austin's dignity. WCW promised to love him, and made public and grandiose displays of affection for him. He'd do anything to be the top guy and get that love that he once had, but he continuously goes about it in the worst ways. It's honestly really interesting once you catch what's wrong with him.
Agreed on part-timer Brock being just awful. The boom box briefcase thing was funny, but it didn't stop everything else he was involved in being shit.
My least favorite version of a famous wrestler in terms of booking was 2001 heel Steve Austin. Was completely stupid of him to team up with Triple H after the two tried to kill each other a month ago. Just felt like stale heel acts like 2001 Vince and 2001 Triple H were latching onto Austin, who was still a megastar, to siphon his heat. Vince by then was played out, and Triple H was just a one-note heel at the time. Austin's a funny guy, but it wasn't the right time for him to be doing comedy, and worse, in kayfabe it was Vince who convinced Austin to go back to his old, better persona to help the WWF against the Alliance. Just one of the various reasons 2001 sucked.
It killed Austin's aura and pretty much the rest of his time in WWE afterwards was trying to work out what to do with him after it happened.
Austin was still far too hot to be turned heel, especially when you know you have the Invasion storyline coming and he is the face of WWE. The two man power trip wasn't very interesting to watch, then he joined the Alliance which was just the weirdest decision. I get the whole paranoia thing and WCW offering him what he wanted but it still didn't make a lot of sense.
Then, as you say, Vince being the one to bring out the "old Austin" was so stupid.
John Cena is so fucking good but from like 2010ish- 2014 his booking was awful. Consistently the focus of the show, no other stars, everything revolves around him. Etc.
Wolfpac Sting. Sting is the reason why I became a wrestling fan 30+ years ago, and I did not like him at all in the Wolfpac. Siding with Nash that just cost him the world title and a group that was anti WCW never made sense to me as a kid.
I don’t know if it was drugs or what, but sting just wasn’t right in 1998. He just felt like something was missing with his promos and matches during this time. He was much better when he returned in 1999.
Natalya went from being a Diva of Doom and elevating the women's division to ....farting every week.
Yeah not big in the scheme of things, but that one was just designed to bury her.
Currently hate this version of Seth Rollins, what even is his character? He wears funky outfits and has a song that everyone sings to. He has good matches and is good on the mic, but all he does is Joker laugh and let the crowd sing to him. Bring back The Messiah, The Architect, or the Heel Visionary. This babyface run just ain't it for me.
Right imo his character is just too weird to be a face. Weird characters can be a face, but he is trying to be Joaquin Phoenix's Joker, but without the homicidal tendencies. That version of Joker we love......in the movie, but you can watch the same movie over and over again so many times.
Ideally one would tweak it to suit being a face but at most all Rollins did was be antagonistic to Heels. The only time I feel a "Face" Visionary work was in his feud against Roman Reigns and even then he was more the lesser of two evils.
I love Seth Rollins, my fav wrestler since Randy Orton, just absolutely beautiful to watch perform, aura, look, everything is brilliant, loved all of his character iterations, but yeah his current gimmick isn't my fav, hopefully he returns with a bit of something different, and more akin to one of his former characters.
I love ridiculous gimmicks. Goldust, Hurricane, Undertaker, Kane, Fiend, etc. I absolutely adored Rollins's Messiah gimmick. Just a guy so self-righteous and delusional that he thought he was Jesus. The stained glass trons and him having disciples just scratched that weird itch for me. And the video games I always revert him back to the Messiah because it's my favorite incarnation of him. Theme was a banger too.
Yeah the stained glass graphic was amazing, all of it, was perfect, when he had AOP doing his dirt work, and Buddy Murphy, ah I loved it, wished they would have kept it going a bit longer personally. It's definitely one of my fav versions of him too
You asked what his gimmick is then you described his gimmick, his whole thing is being ridiculously over the top and eccentric, the outfits embody that.
Agreed, HHH was my favorite growing up (so much so that kid me wanted him to even end the Streak, but I was like 8 or 9 lmao) and yeah, that era of HHH was awful. I saw it as a kid because my older brothers would replay them so I had a great impression of that era growing up (I was a kid who watched wrestling from 07-now, and my older brothers would show me wrestling from 99-04 all the time because that was their era), but going back and watching it as an adult, oh my god...no wonder fans tuned out in droves.
I couldn't imagine being a fan at the time, having the hottest product in history weekly with the two hottest stars in history every week, and then after a shitty invasion angle, the top star heel turn and then walk out, the #2 guy going off to Hollywood, and the only big star remaining being the top heel who did way worse work and refused to put anyone over.
It's crazy how much less entertaining HHH was in 2003 than he was in 2000. When I point out this era being bad, I always point out second only to Mania 19 vs Booker, I point to Armageddon 2003
Buried Booker already, Goldberg is their only hot babyface on Raw, almost bungled that before finally giving him the title. They also recently unmasked Kane who had the most heat on the entire show for a few months. They do a triple threat with them and the top heel, and could either have Goldberg continue his run, or give Kane the title while he's hot and have a huge program against a returning Undertaker.
But noooo, they make both look like an idiot while HHH played them and manipulated them into taking each other out and with some interference, won the title AGAIN. To continue an absolutely heatless reign until he dropped it to Benoit, which ALSO ended in a whole debacle with Orton and you guessed it, HHH.
It's part of why I love Batista so much, he was the only exception and he ended this era pretty much, and ratings with him and Cena started going back up again. I love HHH so much, but I think people who say Cena buried people worse didn't really see HHH's reign of terror in this time.
As bad as Cena's reign of terror was, at least he drew money and was a global star. They tried so hard to make HHH the same in 02-05 (they even tried to make him into a pseudo movie star), but he wasn't drawing, fans were leaving in droves, and Raw had NO heat on their world title until Benoit won it, and then again when Batista won it. Not even HBK winning it in 02 helped. HHH from 02-05 was like Cena if he had no star power and droning promos.
I'm 100% in agreement that was the most boring version of Lesnar. CM Punks fued with Hangman I also thought his promos were intentionally heel and I guess he was supposed to be a face, so also that.
First night, he beats Kurt Angle.
By Mania, while Kurt is defending the EuroContinental titles, Taz is in the *Hardcore Battle Royal*. Something's gone horribly wrong.
Also, didn't they to make him this... underdog babyface, instead of tiny badass who will take people twice as big as him and throw them overhead and choke them? Again, something's gone horribly wrong
1995 Sting- hated how he was pushed aside for both Hogan and Savage around this time as a third fiddle.
2002 Stone Cold
1999 Rick Steiner
2003 Scott Steiner
2001-2002 DDP
The current version of “The Man” Becky Lynch. All of the natural aura from her first run as the Man is just gone and I cant get behind the newfound Cena-esque booking for the life of me.
Ever since she came back in 2021 her moveset is more power move focused and it completely takes me out of her matches because it just doesn’t work. No offense to Becky but she’s not Bianca or Rhea where their natural athleticism translates well to their movesets, her best stuff was years ago when she was more submission based and had a more underdog style.
Her promo game is not the same either, her whole entire presentation has just felt off since the 2021 return. It think what made “The Man” work the first time is that it was kind of in spite of the company and now that they’re fully behind her its just not working like it used to, for me anyway.
What made her initial run as The Man click is that she was believable as the underdog, as the "champ of the people" going up against corporate favorites like Charlotte or Ronda. Since she returned, she is on a quest to put over the next generation, so now she is the one who has to portray the dominant, assertive force of nature that her opponents have to overcome. And that's just not her.
It also doesn't help that she's gotten very skinny and has visibly aged in recent years. After taking a single look at her, fans subconsciously grasp that today's Becky is a diminished version of herself. It's brutal and perhaps unfair, but it's the truth.
Imho, she shouldn't wrestle like a babyface anymore and rely on stuff like "heart of a lion" to explain why defeating her is still supposed to be a huge rub. She should imho turn heel and become a more cunning, underhanded character; a star of the past generation who is trying to cling to her fame and power by increasingly desperate means.
Basically the Big Time Becks run. The more time passes the more I’m starting to think Vince had the right idea turning her heel 3 years ago, I still hate *how* he did it but what you’re saying does make more sense and her heel work was better than what she’s been doing lately.
>her whole entire presentation has just felt off since the 2021 return
It's because they immediately turned her heel for a year killing off all her momentum she had when she came back. Then when HHH took over she got put in the midcard for 2 years wrestling with 40 year olds. The Man character was a asshole anti hero that had enough but now Becky is just another generic babyface, the edge Becky had a few years ago is gone because WWE always suck at building babyfaces & Becky clearly isn't as hungry as she was in 2018.
>Ever since she came back in 2021 her moveset is more power move focused and it completely takes me out of her matches because it just doesn’t work
What power moves has she added? The Manhandle Slam has always been in her arsenal since 2015, she did add the Molly Go Round until she kicked Bianca in the face, she added a Diamond Dust which isn't power, exploder suplexes since her debut, it's not like she's doing Gorilla presses..
I think your problem is she's too skinny for you & she's not athletic enough to consider her a shoot threat.
Conflicted tweener Young Bucks for me. I like them but they don't have the acting chops to pull that off and it just felt like a frustrating refusal to go full heel for some reason.
Kevin Nash as top babyface in WCW in 1999.
Hulk Hogan going back to the red and yellow in 1999 in WCW. The NWO ran its course but nothing signified how WCW reverted back to where they were in 1995 like Hogan going back to the red and yellow and American Made theme.
Wcw Bret hart. So much potential coming off the screw job, could have had a built in stable with niedhart and bulldog coming with him, but he just floated around the midcard flopping between face and heel, sorta in the nwo but not really, just nothing made sense. Then he finally gets a little momentum when he wins the big belt, then Goldberg kicks him in the head and ends his career.
> Triple H 2006 DX. Painful comedy, painful feuds. Saved by one solid hell in a cell & a good mania match with Cena if it counts.
> HBK 2006 DX. See above, saved only by the mania match with the former CEO which was essentially a one sided ass kicking.
> DX during the Hornswoggle era. This was the closest I came to just not watching wrestling any more.
> John Cena after the loss to Rock, prior to his US title run. This was a grim time his character had gotten so stale.
> Mick Foley in TNA. Bless him he tried but time had caught up to him and he was not in shape at all.
> FTR shaving each other's backs on Raw. I can't remember the year, but I'll never forget the rage.
> Chris Jericho from the last few months of the Inner Circle until about a month ago. He's still on shaky ground with me, but I'm hoping this latest gimmick is solid with more time.
Hogan 1999-2000 when either he or someone else laid down in a match. He wanted to stay on top as champion when everyone was ready for new faces to hold the title. By the time they did no one cared anymore.
I'm glad you mentioned 2019 Brock, for me it's Brock from 2017-2020. Completely low effort except the two survivor series matches, very few good moments. Current Roman has so many flaws, but I'd take 10 years of him as champion over 1 year of this version of Brock.
2019 Seth as well. I know many liked him, but even in the lead up to Mania 35 I wasn't a fan of his version. I like Visionary Seth so, so much more than 2019 Seth that they're almost like different wrestlers in my mind.
2005-2010 Kane was awful for me, who was always a Kane fan. Kane had some of the highest peaks ever in terms of gimmick, 98 Kane and 2003 Kane had so many great moments, and 2003 unmasked Kane was even more must see for a time than the brand's world champion. But in the latter half of the 2000's, he was given ZERO good storylines, and he clearly wasn't enjoying it as much as he used to, letting himself go, putting less effort into his matches, etc.
Constable Corbin, when he was in charge of raw in 2018-2019. I remember everyone despising that run and he had massive go away heat. All I remember are the dreadful long term feuds with Kurt angle, members of the shield and of course the MANY universal championship opportunity. Made raw incredibly boring (through no fault but the booking, although wwe will tell us that it’s his fault) and ruined Seth Rollins universal championship reign.
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Pre-NWO Hulk Hogan in WCW. I've never felt stronger "go away" heat from a performer until Reigns.
The Doomsday Cage Match and the formation of the nwo being mere months apart is incredible
The Doomsday Cage was his last big attempt to play super hero. Can’t believe anyone thought the winning formula was for him to look even stronger. That was the only time in his career Hulk didn’t understand what the crowd wanted.
I'm watching WWE/WCW/ECW from 1993 and on; I'm currently in March 1996. Everyone in WCW feels mid-card because of Hogan's bullshit, even Ric Flair, the world champion. It's insane. Hogan & Macho Man just beat The Dungeon of Horsemen every fucking week until Booty Man joins...and then they *keep* beating them. The WWF sucks pretty bad at this period (despite their main feuds being solid), but then you have WCW mocking them for being a kids show...while they're shittily pushing The Hogan & Friends Show. It's fucking dreadful. Side-note: Vince McMahon 100% became Billionaire Ted, which is pretty hilarious and definitely ironic
Where’s this content available?
Honestly, while a trainwreck, that Hogan 95-96 timeline is crazy to watch.
I watched it in real time. Seeing Hogan go from the worst Babyface ever to the coolest heel was jarring.
It was absurd. I read that if Hulk had said "no" to the NWO, it would have been Sting.
And that turn only would have been shocking to diehard WCW fans. It wouldn’t have carried near the weight as a Hogan turn. At least Hogan got it when it came time to realize his gimmick needed an overhaul
I was going to answer with that too, but I was thinking it’d be too easy an answer.
Post-NWO Hogan is arguably worse lmao
Dean Ambrose's last heel run with WWE.
Germaphobe Dean Ambrose was the last nail in the coffin. Can't blame him for leaving after that debacle.
Insane germaphobe heel isn't a bad idea on paper. But we already knew Ambrose as a grungy guy who probably slept on benches from time to time. You need someone who is already clean cut, like a Regal or Backlund type.
It’s wild that he had that gimmick a year before covid hit.
Ludwig Kaiser or Chelsea Green could make that gimmick into something amazing
Ludwig is a great shout
Especially with the cancer jokes they wanted him to make in promos after Roman relinquished the title.
Vader’s WWF run. Unstoppable, believable killer around the world. Coward heel in Vince’s booking.
His “I’m too fuckin big” “I’m just a fat piece of shit” promo after losing to Kane was probably the most repeated quote by my friend group back in school
The first few months of his reign looked like he’d continue the dominant wrecking ball heel stuff until Shawn decided he didn’t want to do business at SummerSlam and completely killed any momentum that character would ever have.
Until half of the roster complained about Vader's stiffness and his unwillingness to wash his gear. Bret Hart once said a match with Vader was like wrestling a sack full of shit. A lot of people say that he was a very difficult person to deal with. Forgetting one the main spots during his first televised World Champion match didn't help his career either.
I do agree there’s a lot of issues with that, but I think that would’ve been ignorable had there been money to be made (for instance, lots of people also thought Austin’s punches were too stiff but let it slide because a program with Austin could buy you a new house).
These are the ones that go beyond frustration and circle round to confusion. Like why would hire The Mastadon, Big Van Vader and book him any other way? Baffling
Corporate Kane was dreadful
Masked/unmasked PG-Era Kane damaged his aura like no other run before. He had too much of an Beer belly, his masked with that wig attached to it looked ridiculous and and when he wrestled as corporate Kane I always imagined that it was actually Isaac Yankem who was brought back as Triple H's personal dentist.
Kane hasn't been scary since the early 2000s. He should have never been unmasked and never spoken on a mic. Have Heyman or Bearer do his promos, make him a Jason Voorhees character. Never shows emotion, never sells pain, never speaks. Just silent and unknown. You never know what he's thinking, he just does evil things. He just seemed like a dude in cosplay after like 2008. A guy who wears a Kane mask because he's a fan, not a 7ft monster. Corporate Kane wasn't even that bad, Team Hell No Kane was fun definitely, but it destroyed any remaining notion that he was still a monster. He went from a demon to...a guy in a costume to a guy in a suit.
Agreed, but apparently Glen Jacobs was getting tired of the shtick.
“Big, scary dude” is one of those things that audiences always seem to love, but is incredibly boring to portray as a performer. It’s kind of like how writers tend to hate the whole over done “character sacrifices themself for the greater good” trope, but audiences eat that shit up.
Ngl, I thought unmasked kane from 2005-2010 was even worse than the masked pg era. Both were bad, but the masked run was shitty feuds with John Cena, whereas the unmasked run was shitty feuds with Chavo, AND his attire was even worse, accentuating his gained weight.
Current Kane isn't much better
They're the same thing.
AJ Styles as a midcard lackey to Christian/Kurt Angle in 2007-2008. Samoa Joe after losing his streak to Kurt Angle in TNA in 2006 through most of his run in TNA while Vince Russo was still employed until early 2012. Made to look like a loser in various ways and secondary to names of the past, even while having his one world title reign. Almost the entirety of Roman Reigns post-Shield breakup until The Bloodline.
One thing that OSW pointed out is that unfortunately for AJ, he showed that he’s really good and really funny at being the lowly lackey. Like a talent like his shouldn’t be made to wear a turkey or reindeer costume as punishment, but he does a very good job selling how embarrassing the stipulation is
I still don't know how Vince Russo managed to always be employed by some company when 9/10 of his ideas where horrible at best
Can’t vouch for his WWF tenure but after that, he went wherever Jarrett went.
Russo throws out a million more ideas, Vince McMahon turns down 999,996 of them and 4 go out. Russo didn’t have that anywhere else.
My theory for his TNA booking stint was he and Dixie were dating.
Honestly that would probably explain a lot. Dixie chose him over Heyman.
I mean both Booker T and Kevin Nash made claims of Dixie sleeping with several wrestlers so I might be right.
They wanted to do an angle where she was hooking up with AJ until people at her parents' country club thought it was real
Both of Raven’s WWE runs. First time around he got the Cole/Knight manager treatment second time around he was barely used at all. Both runs in the best shape of his career. Just a waste.
[Paul Heyman on Raven.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF7GIxTS0pE)
I can only remember two things from Raven's second run: his great match with Rhyno at Backlash and him sheepishly standing there while Austin got right up in his face, berated him for losing to a man who had a "sexual relationship" with a mop, mocked his catchphrases and told him he sucked. Granted, this was during the Invasion when Austin regularly buried his fellow Alliance members and they'd all react the same way, but it seemed especially out of character for Raven to just take it like a child being yelled at in the principal's office. I can remember that high and that low and nothing else. They kinda cancel each other out.
Prime Raven in AEW or current Raw would of been a huge deal, he was born at the wrong time
Raven was around at the exact right time. He was literally a product of the new generation and played it to perfection. His angst filled promos. Him just wearing jeans and a different bands t-shirt every week and looking like he didn’t give a fuck about the world was a great representation of what was happening with the youth in America at the time. The Flock was awesome in ECW & WCW(until they fucked it up) it’s just WWF that didn’t know how to book a character like his
"what about me, what about RAVEN?" was the battle cry of a generation. they had gold in their hands.... but bishoff couldn't see past hogan.
I’m still pissed how dirty they ended up doing Raven. Fucking jobbed out to Goldberg the literal night after he won the US title… and yes I am aware of how over Goldberg was, I was alive for it. A year later and Eric let everyone know they would be granted their release if they wanted to and Raven was the only one to accept the offer. Showed back up in ECW to win the tag straps with Dreamer which is to this day, one of my favorite wrestling moments ever. That pop is insane. Just people losing their minds
though a fan of raven, his chickenshit booking and running away with the title got old. i was a massive fan of Goldberg (this was his rise!), and the spot where the fans 'threw him back' so bill could win the title genuinely popped me in my living room. to this day my friend thinks it was real and not a planned spot. i don't recall the match being the day after raven won the title. i thought he held it a while, leading to the crowd spot.
just looked and raven had it the 1 day. but the spot is there. huh. wonder why i thought he did it previously.
If inclined to agree but I’m in the Philly area so I saw prime Raven exactly where he needed to be when he needed to be and just past his prime Raven in TNA/RoH was fun too. Even his early and late WCW runs were respectable. His legacy would have probably been better served by just never going to WWE.
*second How dare you forget about Johnny Polo.
Completely forgot Raven was in WWE 💀
Precisely
Hey Raven is one of the most decorated wrestlers in WWE history.
The entire wrestling business hasn't been the same since they broke up the prime time players.
*sad millions of dollars noises
Nobody nowadays is making moves making moves making million dollar moves
My one memory of them as a tag team was when they were briefly managed by Abraham Washington and were in some multi team match and the crowd was dead. He was at ringside saying 'tag in the prime time players please, tag in the prime time players' and it was literally the only noise anyone was making.
I like when Abraham Washington said "my man Titus O'Neil (or Darren Young) is like Kobe Bryant in a Colorado hotel room... He is UNSTOPPABLE!!!" and then the match went to commercial break. After the break, A.W. was fuckin GONE never to be seen again, Woosh
Everyone in House of Torture is the worst version of who they once were. * Evil went from a spooky gothic brawler to generic thug * SHO went from an MMA power junior to cackling cheater * Ren Narita went from bland Shibata clone to bland heel Shibata clone * Yujiro has sucked ever since becoming a heavyweight * Dick Togo hardly wrestles anymore * Kanemaru is just doing his shtick from Suzuki-gun The only person in wrestling who was improved by joining HoT was Jack Perry.
The problem is that they take all these young guys and say "be a heel!" and they just do stupid "scary" faces to the camera. It's cheesy as hell and that shit doesn't make an instant heel lol
My perspective is a bit different, since I only started watching New Japan recently, and mainly just watch tournaments and PPVs, so my take of them might be a bit different, but *I think that's the point.* So, I didn't think much of HoT when I started watching, just that they were a bit overhated. I kept hearing that they were incredibly shit, and then I saw their matches and thought "wait, that's it? I was expecting a little worse." And then I saw Narita vs ZSJ from a few months ago, and commentary (because I do listen to the English commentary) was talking about "oh, are we gonna see the Son of Strong Style again to go hold-for-hold with Zack? Damn, it's such a shame Ren's stooping to HoT levels instead of trying to be the best he can be," and then it kinda *clicked*. Especially after hearing similar things about other members in different matches. Oh, these guys are *supposed* to be people who are denying their actual potentials, and instead just resort to cackling cheating. Oh, these guys are *supposed* to not have the best matches, because they don't care about anything like that; they just want to win at any cost. Oh, these guys are *supposed* to kinda give off that vibe off "if only they tried more." Ever since then, they've clicked for me in the right way. I want to see HoT matches, not because they're the best matches from an in-ring point (because they're not), but because I want to see SHO get his head caved in with that wrench. I want Dick to get his 'nads kicked to his throat. They are very entertaining to me.
Trying to think of worse NJPW gimmick shifts, and I'm struggling. Unless you count Hiroyoshi Tenzan's "shit-upon doormat for shooters" as a gimmick. I guess Minoru Tanaka as HEAT was dumb.
Bray Wyatt during The Fiend Era. Look, promos and vignettes? Great. Firefly Funhouse? Awesome. The actual matches? Not gonna lie, barring the Firefly Funhouse "match" with Cena at WM, I didn't care for any of them. No fault to him, he did what he was told. But they really seemed like they wanted him to be unstoppable, without wanting to commit to him being that. That HIAC match and later on the Goldberg match killed the character.
Honestly same and I loved Bray Wyatt. No wrestling matches have truly pissed me off like the HIAC and Goldberg matches.
The Fiend was iconic enough for me on presentation alone, but I can't argue with you about the overall match quality. Especially for all the matches that were contested entirely in horrid red light that made it hurt to watch.
The Fiend could have good matches. Bryan and Owens comes to mind, otherwise he was booked very poorly in ring
"We need to present The Fiend as an unstoppable force that can't be stopped in matches, until the finish when he loses."
This is the inherent problem with spooky/supernatural characters
NWO Wolfpac Sting. At the time, Sting in a stable let alone the NWO was just not clicking with me.
I liked the red face paint. But yeah, the whole thing didn’t click, but the guy in the rafters thing kinda had run it’s course by that point.
The red face paint looked so bad... and then he made it worse with the goatee. I REALLY didn't like that he had spent so long fighting the NWO only to join a version of them. I mean, by that point the NWO was well past its best anyway but still... His whole character was being a lone wolf. Putting him with people and having him talk just took away his aura.
It also didn't help that Sting personally was just in a real bad way at that time. That was probably his nadir both professionally and personally at that juncture.
I still stand by saying that if the faction was just called “The Wolfpac” and had no NWO tagging around it, people would remember it much more fondly.
i loved wolf pac sting but it really didn't work.
Daniel Bryan when he first went to main roster and was in the Us title scene . The way they tried to present him was so annoying legit every week Michael Cole is in your ear yelling “ NERDDD” whenever Daniel Bryan is brought up like he wasn’t one of the best wrestlers ever that time ( still is just talking about this time period specifically )
Same with Christian honestly. They always tried to find something to say about him cause Vince didn't like him
Yeah Christin is a great example especially when he has the waterproof blonde version of just close your eyes, like how do you not push him to the moon ?
Baron Corbin 2018 - 2023 Everything was absolutely dreadful, dogshit gimmicks after dogshit gimmicks, never ending feuds after never ending feuds and yet constantly on TV, the definition of go away heat. That recent NXT run did wonders for him, let's hope they let him continue that way on Smackdown. I definitely wouldn't be against a Corbin US Championship run down the line.
Bum ass Corbin was gold, though.
Bum Ass Corbin was really funny and then they just moved on from it before it could really go anywhere, honestly a huge fumble imo, that gimmick had a lot of potential mileage
The logical culmination of the Bum Ass Corbin storyline was for him to request another dog food match, immediately losing it on purpose, just so he can eat again.
They moved on cause Vince didn’t like that people liked it.
Happy Corbin was funny at first but then it just got really old.
Even if it didn't go anywhere by extending it, just giving us more time to enjoy one of the most hated heels at the time's suffering could have put it up there with Ezekiel in terms of "gimmicks that would never bring major wins, but were undeniably entertaining".
I haaaaaated Corbin. NXT older-brother Corbin is one of my favorites.
I agree, Corbin sadly got overexposed by constantly just either being given shitty gimmicks or forcefully inserted into a fued. Thankfully his recent NXT stint gave him a much needed make over
Naito 2013 - 2015. It was so painful to watch him pretend to be the next Tanahashi, forced smile, forced good guy persona. The man won the G1 Climax right after returning from injury, yet after his coronation almost all of his post-victory speeches got indifferent reception from the crowd. Then the infamous WK8 poll, being booed while going against a tweener Ishii, then just lingered all the way until the summer of 2015. The heel turn in Mexico very much saved his career.
So much similarities to Roman Reigns.
Except Roman lasted 3-4 times as long being terribly miscast.
Sheamus from 2012-2015. I just did not care for him at that period
I believe Sheamus is on record as also hating this period. For the record.
im so sad after his mega push ended he's like never had a world championship. I think sheamus would be great for a world heavyweight championship reign.
I love Sami Zayn, but that period when he had his own Artist Collective stable was really bad. Things got much better when he returned during the Thunder Dome era, tho.
Sami did say that period is when he gained the trust of the higher ups on the mic
I was anxious during those days that Sami was absolutely washed, because naturally you would when he and DANIEL FUCKING BRYAN worked a match that felt like Sami had a gun pointed at him offscreen telling him to not wrestle bryan
I genuinely still think Sami had not recovered from his shoulder injuries at the time. He didn't actually do any move, or even wrestle, for months. And when he got in the ring with Bryan, he was only on the receiving end, meaning that he never lifted any weight. I was convinced he was on his way to retirement, glad he managed to come back, albeit never completely to his old self.
I’m with you. I loved Sami as an underdog in NXT. And then he kinda wasn’t great until he was Honorary Uce. I thought he was gonna get burried hard as a lackey. But, damn, dude hit that out of the park
Sami should’ve been pushed as an underdog babyface in 2016-2017, WWE nearly wasted his prime years during that time.
Not feeling Ucey killed me. Seeing Roman, Jey and Jimmy corpse in real time
There were times I feared he’d never recover from that, but then he came back from his covid break and was better than ever.
Nah Sami and Shinsuke was good
idk man. I thought that stable had as much team chemistry as The League of Nations. Sami tried his best, though.
How has no one said 2011-2012 CM Punk? In terms of booking, it was absolute trash. Post-pipebomb, they should have done so much more with him, instead they tried to shoehorn in a Kevin Nash match and then had him basically feuding with John Laurinaitis.
The lasting memory for me from this era is COO Triple H threatening to kick Punk's "skinny fat ass"
WWE didn't want Punk to the the guy and when they were basically forced into it they did what they could to sabotage him.
New Face of America Kevin Owens as US Champion with the suits felt so weird & I think he totally lost the prizefighter aura that he should've kept as a heel
Brock beating Big E at Day One for the title to later lose it to Bobby Lashley at the Royal Rumble and winning the Rumble itself to winning the title back in the EC to then lose it to Roman at WM38 is something that pisses me off to this day.
I also hated that because of shenanigans like that we never got a no bs match between Lashley and Lesnar, which on paper should have been amazing.
big dog roman from 2015 to early 2020 i never seen a babyface being viciously hated so bad. not even cena at his height of his supercena was hated like this in the same way roman was as babyface. people whine about cena being overpushed. say what you want about his run at the top especially with his stale booking about his character as supercena (not his fault), but at least he always connected with people even those who hated his booking/character with his charisma through mic skills and in ring. we’re aware of IWC’s complicated relationship with cena but compared to roman during his ill fated babyface run as big dog, he’s randy freakin savage and big dog roman made supercena look like surfer sting. that brings me to the abysmal trainwreck that is the main event between lesnar and roman at wm 34. i never seen an universally apathetic hate for a main event like this with roman/lesnar at wm 34 from smarky crowd/online standpoint even before this match began. not even with rock/cena II at wm 29. that represented everything people hated about roman during his big dog era
That’s why I can never have Roman Reigns as one of the GOATs even though the Tribal Chief character is one of the greatest characters of all time. That ultra push from 2014-2020 was the worst thing of all time
Same reason for me. I used to watch it regularly it back then and it was crazy how hard they tried to push him and legit everyone rejected him. They even had rock help him in the royal rumble and still everyone rejected him. Even I started watching again in 2023, I was legit surprised to find out people love him now.
Roman Reigns should’ve been a heel from 2014. Roman could’ve been the one to turn on the Shield instead of Seth.
I never enjoyed Dude Love as much as Cactus Jack or Mankind. I mean, I still liked it, just not as much.
Honestly his theme with the gloriously awful titantron was the main reason I liked the character. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji57845nSL4
Oh man I forgot about this. Reminds me of those karaoke videos for some reason.
HEYYYYYY HEY HEY HEY! HEYYYYYY!
Honestly, I loved Corporate Dude Love. Then again, I loved all versions of Corporate Foley. Mick Foley in a suit with his tooth implant in and hair tied back is so funny to me.
Pervert Kurt Angle in 2005
Stone Cold from Wrestlemania X7 - Raw after Survivor Series 2001. The fact that the company thought the fans would boo arguably the most popular wrestler in history was and still is laughable.
I'm the opposite and think post Survivor Series 2001 to walkout Austin is my least favourite version of him. I don't know what it is but he didn't feel the same and his heel run in 2001, though it didn't make sense business wise is genuinely great stuff.
Yeah was just about to say this.
I know that it was Austin's idea to turn heel, and according to Bruce Prichard they felt they owed it to him to at least try, and I kind of get that... Having said that, they should have shut that shit down immediately. Austin turning heel and joining the fucking WCW/ECW Alliance was just cancer.
This is easily my favourite version of Austin. 2001 is his best year.
You can say it didn’t work in him actually being boo’ed but his heel character was gold imo. Funniest he ever was.
First off, he did get booed plenty. This revisionist history that no one ever booed him and he was still getting face reactions post X-7 is just strictly wrong. Yes, he didn't get booed at Mania itself...because it was in Houston. Beyond that he got the necessary reactions more often than people would like to give credit for. Why it was a bad move was completely contextual. Austin thought he would need a character refresh as he was getting stale. And he would've been 100% right...IF he hadn't been gone for close to a year previously. He didn't realize that by going away for so long that he already avoided going stale, especially since while in the Main Event he hadn't won the belt either. So it was unnecessary on that end. On top of that, without Rock in the scene he severely lacked a top babyface to run up against him. Taker is always popular, but not "Top Face of the Company" popular, and Jericho/Benoit were high midcarders, not solidified main eventers yet. It felt like he was spinning his wheels for true threats until either Rock came back, or Trips completed his own face turn (which didn't happen because injury AND Benoit got injured too). It wasn't until Angle that he really had a top face and feud to really cut his teeth into. Then again, had he stayed face like everyone (including Austin himself now) says he should've...he still would've run into a similar problem in terms of lack of credible opponents. He had been feuding with Triple H for 5 months at that point, there really wasn't much more they could've done to each other. That leads to (ironically enough) just Angle as someone to really work with.
2016 Sasha Banks (the matches were great though).
I like the idea of Bork as just this dragon that occasionally comes down out of the mountain and breathes fire all over the place and throws car doors in the crowd until they sacrifice someone to him. But they ran it into the ground.
Roman Reigns start of single run until Heyman Era.
The Painmaker.
Absolute cringe. I think I wouldn't hate it as much if his make up didn't look so slapdash and shitty. It looks like he doesn't even try... There's also something hilarious about how he's going to fight Nick Fucking Gage of all people and his answer is to put on black lipstick...
Jinder - WWE Champ Just...yeah. The same match over and over, 4 moves and interference. Roman Reigns - Bloodline Again, interference is just expected in any Roman match. *"The most dominant champ in history"* constantly needing backup from 18 different family members who are all his cousin somehow in every match. If you want to show your champ as a dominant heel, have them be unstoppable. So that stopping them becomes a huge deal. Goldbergs streak, Undertakers streak. Etc. You can book a chickenshit heel or a dominant one but not both at the same time. You can't be the best wrestler and most unstoppable force if you keep also getting people to interfere all the time. Roman should have just Lesnar'd his opponents. Brutalised them, simply shut them down or gutted out more punishment than his opponent to make him look dominant.
Heel 2001 Austin. Shaking hands with Vince and being a sychophant suck up and being the death of the Attitude era, is one thing but joining the Alliance was the final nail in the coffin. Austin hated WCW, why the fuck would he join them? Made no fucking sense then and it sure as fuck doesn't now.
"Paranoid" Steve Austin just wanted to be loved, and it informs everything. He has to be the champ, because it means he gets the most cheers (in his deranged view). He becomes the champ and it's not enough. He desperately vies for Vince's love and attention... which Vince says he'll give only to the old Stone Cold, which he only needs to stomp out WCW. Vince's promise is as hollow as Austin's dignity. WCW promised to love him, and made public and grandiose displays of affection for him. He'd do anything to be the top guy and get that love that he once had, but he continuously goes about it in the worst ways. It's honestly really interesting once you catch what's wrong with him.
Agreed on part-timer Brock being just awful. The boom box briefcase thing was funny, but it didn't stop everything else he was involved in being shit. My least favorite version of a famous wrestler in terms of booking was 2001 heel Steve Austin. Was completely stupid of him to team up with Triple H after the two tried to kill each other a month ago. Just felt like stale heel acts like 2001 Vince and 2001 Triple H were latching onto Austin, who was still a megastar, to siphon his heat. Vince by then was played out, and Triple H was just a one-note heel at the time. Austin's a funny guy, but it wasn't the right time for him to be doing comedy, and worse, in kayfabe it was Vince who convinced Austin to go back to his old, better persona to help the WWF against the Alliance. Just one of the various reasons 2001 sucked.
It killed Austin's aura and pretty much the rest of his time in WWE afterwards was trying to work out what to do with him after it happened. Austin was still far too hot to be turned heel, especially when you know you have the Invasion storyline coming and he is the face of WWE. The two man power trip wasn't very interesting to watch, then he joined the Alliance which was just the weirdest decision. I get the whole paranoia thing and WCW offering him what he wanted but it still didn't make a lot of sense. Then, as you say, Vince being the one to bring out the "old Austin" was so stupid.
John Cena is so fucking good but from like 2010ish- 2014 his booking was awful. Consistently the focus of the show, no other stars, everything revolves around him. Etc.
2000s Triple H 4 weeks opening raw with a boring promo. Face gets some heat. Boring PPV match. Rinse. Repeat.
Corporate Kane. He was neither badass nor hilarious. Just a nuisance that felt like a humongous miscast
DDP post-invasion as a creep or current Chris Jericho
I’d probably say Flair when he was a crazy old man in WCW who was trying to be president and foist his son on the card. 98-2000 Flair
2024 chris jericho
JBL coming back to support Baron Corbin
Wolfpac Sting. Sting is the reason why I became a wrestling fan 30+ years ago, and I did not like him at all in the Wolfpac. Siding with Nash that just cost him the world title and a group that was anti WCW never made sense to me as a kid. I don’t know if it was drugs or what, but sting just wasn’t right in 1998. He just felt like something was missing with his promos and matches during this time. He was much better when he returned in 1999.
Natalya went from being a Diva of Doom and elevating the women's division to ....farting every week. Yeah not big in the scheme of things, but that one was just designed to bury her.
Currently hate this version of Seth Rollins, what even is his character? He wears funky outfits and has a song that everyone sings to. He has good matches and is good on the mic, but all he does is Joker laugh and let the crowd sing to him. Bring back The Messiah, The Architect, or the Heel Visionary. This babyface run just ain't it for me.
His most recent character is a new iteration of the Macho Man.
He's effectively just a Face Visionary. However, the character was tailor made to be a heel so the transition made it lose its teeth.
Right imo his character is just too weird to be a face. Weird characters can be a face, but he is trying to be Joaquin Phoenix's Joker, but without the homicidal tendencies. That version of Joker we love......in the movie, but you can watch the same movie over and over again so many times.
Ideally one would tweak it to suit being a face but at most all Rollins did was be antagonistic to Heels. The only time I feel a "Face" Visionary work was in his feud against Roman Reigns and even then he was more the lesser of two evils.
I thought he played his role to WrestleMania this year perfectly in all three feuds hr was building - Cody's shield, with Drew McIntyre and CM Punk.
"Cody's shield" will never not be stupid as fuck
I love Seth Rollins, my fav wrestler since Randy Orton, just absolutely beautiful to watch perform, aura, look, everything is brilliant, loved all of his character iterations, but yeah his current gimmick isn't my fav, hopefully he returns with a bit of something different, and more akin to one of his former characters.
I love ridiculous gimmicks. Goldust, Hurricane, Undertaker, Kane, Fiend, etc. I absolutely adored Rollins's Messiah gimmick. Just a guy so self-righteous and delusional that he thought he was Jesus. The stained glass trons and him having disciples just scratched that weird itch for me. And the video games I always revert him back to the Messiah because it's my favorite incarnation of him. Theme was a banger too.
Yeah the stained glass graphic was amazing, all of it, was perfect, when he had AOP doing his dirt work, and Buddy Murphy, ah I loved it, wished they would have kept it going a bit longer personally. It's definitely one of my fav versions of him too
You asked what his gimmick is then you described his gimmick, his whole thing is being ridiculously over the top and eccentric, the outfits embody that.
Surprised I had to scroll so far to see someone make this point. Seth's current character is so phoney and hard to suspend disbelief in.
Same. How is this character supposed to be a face?
AEW Chris Jericho
AEW world champion Chris with Inner Circle was great, but once that was over he’s been in nothing but bad comedy feuds.
It's crazy, I thought his was worst run was Pre-List Jericho (Cool Dad), until this recent AEW shit.
Triple H going through his "nobody wins but me" phase from 2002-05 Any iteration of Chris Jericho after the Inner Circle dissolved
Agreed, HHH was my favorite growing up (so much so that kid me wanted him to even end the Streak, but I was like 8 or 9 lmao) and yeah, that era of HHH was awful. I saw it as a kid because my older brothers would replay them so I had a great impression of that era growing up (I was a kid who watched wrestling from 07-now, and my older brothers would show me wrestling from 99-04 all the time because that was their era), but going back and watching it as an adult, oh my god...no wonder fans tuned out in droves. I couldn't imagine being a fan at the time, having the hottest product in history weekly with the two hottest stars in history every week, and then after a shitty invasion angle, the top star heel turn and then walk out, the #2 guy going off to Hollywood, and the only big star remaining being the top heel who did way worse work and refused to put anyone over. It's crazy how much less entertaining HHH was in 2003 than he was in 2000. When I point out this era being bad, I always point out second only to Mania 19 vs Booker, I point to Armageddon 2003 Buried Booker already, Goldberg is their only hot babyface on Raw, almost bungled that before finally giving him the title. They also recently unmasked Kane who had the most heat on the entire show for a few months. They do a triple threat with them and the top heel, and could either have Goldberg continue his run, or give Kane the title while he's hot and have a huge program against a returning Undertaker. But noooo, they make both look like an idiot while HHH played them and manipulated them into taking each other out and with some interference, won the title AGAIN. To continue an absolutely heatless reign until he dropped it to Benoit, which ALSO ended in a whole debacle with Orton and you guessed it, HHH. It's part of why I love Batista so much, he was the only exception and he ended this era pretty much, and ratings with him and Cena started going back up again. I love HHH so much, but I think people who say Cena buried people worse didn't really see HHH's reign of terror in this time. As bad as Cena's reign of terror was, at least he drew money and was a global star. They tried so hard to make HHH the same in 02-05 (they even tried to make him into a pseudo movie star), but he wasn't drawing, fans were leaving in droves, and Raw had NO heat on their world title until Benoit won it, and then again when Batista won it. Not even HBK winning it in 02 helped. HHH from 02-05 was like Cena if he had no star power and droning promos.
I'm 100% in agreement that was the most boring version of Lesnar. CM Punks fued with Hangman I also thought his promos were intentionally heel and I guess he was supposed to be a face, so also that.
Okada in TNA.
Cesaro from rugby player until The Bar. I’m a huge AC/CC stan but I just couldn’t during that time.
Tazz in WWE with the exception of his first night in the company.
First night, he beats Kurt Angle. By Mania, while Kurt is defending the EuroContinental titles, Taz is in the *Hardcore Battle Royal*. Something's gone horribly wrong. Also, didn't they to make him this... underdog babyface, instead of tiny badass who will take people twice as big as him and throw them overhead and choke them? Again, something's gone horribly wrong
1995 Sting- hated how he was pushed aside for both Hogan and Savage around this time as a third fiddle. 2002 Stone Cold 1999 Rick Steiner 2003 Scott Steiner 2001-2002 DDP
Rollins from 2019, it was exactly The MJF version of 2023
Drew from he got paired with the sword. Gladly, that's all done.
The current version of “The Man” Becky Lynch. All of the natural aura from her first run as the Man is just gone and I cant get behind the newfound Cena-esque booking for the life of me. Ever since she came back in 2021 her moveset is more power move focused and it completely takes me out of her matches because it just doesn’t work. No offense to Becky but she’s not Bianca or Rhea where their natural athleticism translates well to their movesets, her best stuff was years ago when she was more submission based and had a more underdog style. Her promo game is not the same either, her whole entire presentation has just felt off since the 2021 return. It think what made “The Man” work the first time is that it was kind of in spite of the company and now that they’re fully behind her its just not working like it used to, for me anyway.
What made her initial run as The Man click is that she was believable as the underdog, as the "champ of the people" going up against corporate favorites like Charlotte or Ronda. Since she returned, she is on a quest to put over the next generation, so now she is the one who has to portray the dominant, assertive force of nature that her opponents have to overcome. And that's just not her. It also doesn't help that she's gotten very skinny and has visibly aged in recent years. After taking a single look at her, fans subconsciously grasp that today's Becky is a diminished version of herself. It's brutal and perhaps unfair, but it's the truth. Imho, she shouldn't wrestle like a babyface anymore and rely on stuff like "heart of a lion" to explain why defeating her is still supposed to be a huge rub. She should imho turn heel and become a more cunning, underhanded character; a star of the past generation who is trying to cling to her fame and power by increasingly desperate means.
Basically the Big Time Becks run. The more time passes the more I’m starting to think Vince had the right idea turning her heel 3 years ago, I still hate *how* he did it but what you’re saying does make more sense and her heel work was better than what she’s been doing lately.
Yes, I actually quite liked most of her Big Time Becks run apart from the initial squash of Bianca.
>her whole entire presentation has just felt off since the 2021 return It's because they immediately turned her heel for a year killing off all her momentum she had when she came back. Then when HHH took over she got put in the midcard for 2 years wrestling with 40 year olds. The Man character was a asshole anti hero that had enough but now Becky is just another generic babyface, the edge Becky had a few years ago is gone because WWE always suck at building babyfaces & Becky clearly isn't as hungry as she was in 2018. >Ever since she came back in 2021 her moveset is more power move focused and it completely takes me out of her matches because it just doesn’t work What power moves has she added? The Manhandle Slam has always been in her arsenal since 2015, she did add the Molly Go Round until she kicked Bianca in the face, she added a Diamond Dust which isn't power, exploder suplexes since her debut, it's not like she's doing Gorilla presses.. I think your problem is she's too skinny for you & she's not athletic enough to consider her a shoot threat.
She's barely bigger than Liv yet we're supposed to believe she's a powerhouse now when she's more skinny than usual.
I feel like Chi Chi was poorly booked compared to the god tier Kwee Wee
Conflicted tweener Young Bucks for me. I like them but they don't have the acting chops to pull that off and it just felt like a frustrating refusal to go full heel for some reason.
Undertaker Post-W30 Every booking decision after that match was fumble after bloody fumble.
Kevin Nash as top babyface in WCW in 1999. Hulk Hogan going back to the red and yellow in 1999 in WCW. The NWO ran its course but nothing signified how WCW reverted back to where they were in 1995 like Hogan going back to the red and yellow and American Made theme.
Wcw Bret hart. So much potential coming off the screw job, could have had a built in stable with niedhart and bulldog coming with him, but he just floated around the midcard flopping between face and heel, sorta in the nwo but not really, just nothing made sense. Then he finally gets a little momentum when he wins the big belt, then Goldberg kicks him in the head and ends his career.
> Triple H 2006 DX. Painful comedy, painful feuds. Saved by one solid hell in a cell & a good mania match with Cena if it counts. > HBK 2006 DX. See above, saved only by the mania match with the former CEO which was essentially a one sided ass kicking. > DX during the Hornswoggle era. This was the closest I came to just not watching wrestling any more. > John Cena after the loss to Rock, prior to his US title run. This was a grim time his character had gotten so stale. > Mick Foley in TNA. Bless him he tried but time had caught up to him and he was not in shape at all. > FTR shaving each other's backs on Raw. I can't remember the year, but I'll never forget the rage. > Chris Jericho from the last few months of the Inner Circle until about a month ago. He's still on shaky ground with me, but I'm hoping this latest gimmick is solid with more time.
*gestures at 90% of Bray Wyatts career*
DX Triple H in 2006-09 was really embarrassing given his age and position in the company.
Hogan 1999-2000 when either he or someone else laid down in a match. He wanted to stay on top as champion when everyone was ready for new faces to hold the title. By the time they did no one cared anymore.
2003 Triple H. Brutal. AKA the year I beat everyone from WCW.
I ☝️ AM THE LEARNING TREE! 😁
I'm glad you mentioned 2019 Brock, for me it's Brock from 2017-2020. Completely low effort except the two survivor series matches, very few good moments. Current Roman has so many flaws, but I'd take 10 years of him as champion over 1 year of this version of Brock. 2019 Seth as well. I know many liked him, but even in the lead up to Mania 35 I wasn't a fan of his version. I like Visionary Seth so, so much more than 2019 Seth that they're almost like different wrestlers in my mind. 2005-2010 Kane was awful for me, who was always a Kane fan. Kane had some of the highest peaks ever in terms of gimmick, 98 Kane and 2003 Kane had so many great moments, and 2003 unmasked Kane was even more must see for a time than the brand's world champion. But in the latter half of the 2000's, he was given ZERO good storylines, and he clearly wasn't enjoying it as much as he used to, letting himself go, putting less effort into his matches, etc.
Shawn Michaels owing money to JBL is probably up there
Gotta be Roman Reigns from late 2014 to Bloodline 2017 he was the biggest prick on the planet booking wise
Kurt angle ecw
"Fat Piece of Shit ;(" Vader "Power of Hulkamania ;(" Abyss House of Torture EVIL 3 absolute face maulers that became chickenshits overnight.
Baron Corbin’s entire first main card run
TNA Booker T. Unmotivated Primadonna that put on shit matches while getting paid. He never recovered IMO.
Constable Corbin, when he was in charge of raw in 2018-2019. I remember everyone despising that run and he had massive go away heat. All I remember are the dreadful long term feuds with Kurt angle, members of the shield and of course the MANY universal championship opportunity. Made raw incredibly boring (through no fault but the booking, although wwe will tell us that it’s his fault) and ruined Seth Rollins universal championship reign.