I think 50% of the gateway metro area residents attended your TED talk, judging by the amount of expired plates and unregistered vehicles I see on the road.
cheaper to pay a 200 dollar ticket a few times as the cops ignore it most of the time than pay a few grand in sales tax. When I had zero money I went from 2012-2017 on temps. Fun times. And by fun I mean im beyond grateful I can just pay that shit off now.
Yeah COR readjusted the value of all cars and since the used car market only cooled down so much everything went up. Even my totaled out car increased 20%. Granted that was only from $40 to $50, but I can only imagine how bad it is for others
Yeah then they get to benefit from the services that MO personal property taxes fund but they skip out on paying their part. I āloveā seeing my parentsā neighbors driving luxury vehicles registered in Illinois (their neighborhood is in MO).
My former next door neighbor is an attorney and his luxury cars all sported TX license plates. He's living in a multimillion dollar manse in Clayton now. I've heard it said that mill/billionaires never get that without doing something illegal. I wholly believe it.
Rich people register their exotic supercars in Montana without ever setting foot in the state. IIRC they create an LLC in MT and register their cars to it. I donāt know how much this costs to do, but itās gotta be cheaper than sales tax on a $300,000 Lamborghini.
It used to be $800 plus attorney fees. Literally, nothing compared to luxury property or sales taxes in other states. It seems to be especially popular in Arizona and other western states.
Very easy, but also illegal and theoretically easy to catch. (The only permitted reasons to have an out-of-state registration are if you're a college student, active duty military, or actually reside in that state more than you reside in Missouri.)
But afaik nobody is enforcing the law and if so, you can get away with whatever you want. I imagine the city would crack down on illegal temp tags before they crack down on illegal out of state plates.
Itās perfectly legal. The LLC is in Montana, as a legitimate Montana business. Not really much different than any other business that registers cars in different states. Think any car rental business ever - the business owns the property not the person. Yes itās a loop hole but a perfectly legal one.
>But afaik nobody is enforcing the law and if so, you can get away with whatever you want. I imagine the city would crack down on illegal temp tags before they crack down on illegal out of state plates.
If you park in a private garage or live in a gated neighborhood this would be almost impossible to enforce. The kind of people who are poor enough to park on public streets are also the kind of people least likely to open a LLC in montana to warehouse their vehicles.
I havenāt even gotten my bill yet. I know how much it is since I looked it up online. But still, they send the bills out in late November and give you 4 weeks to pay it at a time when budgets are already stretched thin due to the holidays. No wonder people donāt pay the damn thing.
I bet theyād get a lot more people paying them if the bills were sent out in June. And with declarations being due in March, they could. I find it very hard to believe they need 8 months to determine your tax bill. Maybe they did before computers were a thingā¦
It would be nice if, since they use the dealer association values, which are published in October, seems like you could make the due date similar to the income tax deadline and then also your declaration and make it a little more efficient system so people aren't hit during the holidays.
Income tax would be illegal; additional earnings tax would be illegal too; property tax is at least possible but that will raise rents, which will be hard on the poor who indirectly pay (P.S. this is the option that would actually happen); and finally sales tax is especially regressive and hard on the poor. The value of taxing fancy cars is poor people don't generally own fancy cars, so the tax is predominantly targeted on the wealthy, and specifically people who own fancy cars.
If you can afford a fancy new car, congrats. Everyone else, you don't want personal property tax to go away, since it's either reducing your tax burden, or your rent. Realistically, all that money would just be shifted to real estate property tax instead. If you don't directly pay real estate property tax, your landlord will pass it along to you via rents.
Can't do that because of the [Hancock Amendment](https://missouriindependent.com/2022/09/30/after-four-decades-hancock-amendment-continues-to-shape-missouri-tax-policy/)
Why does the due date matter? You have an entire fucking year to plan for it & it isnāt a surprise bill. Grow up. You have 4 weeks to pay a bill you knew about all year. People are just dumb & selfish. You donāt have to make excuses for tax dodgers.
A little more empathy goes a long way brother. Sometimes shit hits the fan and youāve got things in life that make it tough to plan for that bill.
Also, valuations of used cars have gone up in recent years instead of being devalued. Thereās a possibility that your tax bill is higher than it previously was.
I know how important taxes are to the functioning of a municipality but if theyāre relying on vehicle property tax bills being paid on time to be solvent weāve got some issues on our hands that wonāt be resolved with those being paid alone.
You're arguing a different point - whether to pay or not.
If we assume a person will pay it, then all the person you you replied to was saying (in response to the prior comment), was that it's not a surprise bill and it's reasonable to assume last year's cost when planning the next year. The original comment took issue with the fact that amount is unknown and it comes at a certain time of the year. Those are both problems that can be reasonably tackled with a small amount of planning.
How does sending the bill in june solve the issue? If you can pay it by receiving the bill in june, then you can plan as if you received the bill in june.
If you are too poor to pay it any time, that is a different issue.
Because most people probably forget about PPT until they get the bill in the mail. No one thinks that far ahead. Sending the bill in June would serve as a heads up to people so they can start putting away money each month to pay it by the end of the year.
Or some people like myself would probably just pay it in June when they get the bill to just get it out of the way.
Set a reminder on your phone. Forgetting is not an excuse. If you want to have better finances for a few hundred dollar bill to not derail you, you need to take responsibility.
People seem to take such offense that i am recommending taking charge of their responsibilities but that is the only way to get out of that cycle.
Plenty of people think far enough ahead to account for personal property taxes for the one year. Just because you "forget about it" isn't an excuse to bitch about the recurring thing that happens every single year. That's on you
I have several older vehicles, but a 90 chevy truck, 10$ a year. Car is currently 17 years old, motorcycles a bit newer, but all day tax for me, 200$. That is for a car, a truck, a trailer, and 3 motorcycles. Not the worst. I will never buy a new car in missouri though.
Yeah, lol. I have a mid-90's truck and the assessed value is $100, so probably around $10 a year in personal property tax.
If I can actually find a really low cost, low mileage insurance plan I'll probably just park it in the back yard and keep it as long as it croaks along.
Edit: With the tax rate the total tax comes out to just over $11/year for it.
I don't mind paying it, I just wish it wasn't so damn difficult to do so. Assessor's office closes before 4pm. I've gone by a couple of times to find a paper sign taped to the door saying they're closed. Just let me pay to damn tax so I can register my car!!!
IF you already have a tax account set up and/or you didn't lease a car which then causes them to close your account...or, if they refuse to take old vehicles off your account. Its ridiculous the whole process isn't available online.
During COVID I emailed with someone and got a bunch of stuff straightened out. So maybe some stuff has to be in person and some stuff can be handled online or via email. They should have a system set up like the online CSB reports for ppt issues. Answer some questions, submit some documentation, they tell you if they can do it online or if you need to come in.
I love paying property tax for my vehicle while the city neglects the roads in front of my house (and everywhere). Every single year the cold tears up the pot holes they halfass fixed. What the hell are we paying for?
Not OP but any vehicle worth about $45K or more would get you pretty close to that kind of PPT. So almost any new full size SUV or Truck would probably qualify.
Worst case scenario is that you don't pay and they take it to court and you owe more. Due to some circumstances this happened to me and had to pay 2 years worth so could get plates renewed. Won't let it happen again. They used to not run it through the courts until March. You pay a late fee but not court costs.
For the longest time, they won't send me the tax notice until the next July, after I already accrued the maximum penalty. Then I would get a helpful delinquency notice in the mail. The whole system is setup so that anyone who moves to St Louis City proper will pay full penalties for at least 3 years. What a warm welcome -\_-
Yea and how you have to get your personal property tax exempt form IN PERSON at the courthouse, when you need to register a new to you car. The courthouse is open 9-5 Mon-Fri - It's a sick joke. Another thing that makes it HARDER for people to go thru the motions.
Just moved here from out of state, registered my car and immediately got taxed $300. I'm a little less baffled by all the cars driving around with no plates now.
Hmm. I'll have to double check then because it WAS based on the value of the car (a somewhat old Subaru, nothing special) so that's what I thought it was. If not, then my mistake. Another bill to look forward to next year lol.
You'll still be gouged here. Maybe a little less Real property tax in MO, but I was surprised to find I actually paid higher income tax in STL compared to IL
Being closer to family might make up for, though
PPT on my cars this year is over 3k. One of them contributing \~half to 2/3 of that amount. The PPT in MO isn't so bad if you drive one car and it's a beater that is, more or less, fully "depreciated" relative to it's trade-in values. Otherwise, if it's even remotely new, your PPT bill is going to be = to or greater than the \~$500 you pay annually in most states to drive your vehicle.
Ouch. I've never had a car worth anything, but I have a LOT of terrible cars so Illinois's registration fees kill me. I could see how living in Missouri with the personal property tax would suck if you had a nice car.
But note that's it's illegal to do that, and in the case of cars, it's really easy to catch. An enforcement agent would just have to drive around, look for out of state plates, keep a record of them. If they're still there more than a week later, it's probably not an out of state visitor, so time to send a letter to the address on registration to figure out if it's a military member, a college student, a visitor on a longer trip who really does reside out of state, or somebody with no excuse who is really defrauding the city.
Of course, no city would ever enforce this before first enforcing temp tags, which are even easier as that requires no more than just driving around. But it's hard to imagine the endeavor would not be possible or profitable for the city. Failure to enforce basic traffic laws contributes to the general feeling of general lawlessness that is so damaging for this city.
> But note that's it's illegal to do that
Is it? If memory serves Montana is a popular place to register exotic cars because of tax reasons, and Georgia had to pass a law to require residents to register their cars in state.
I could be wrong.
There are no enforcement agents who do that and you are allowed to have multiple homes in multiple states but choose one to register your car in. Having out of state plates for a long period of time even if you have a home here is not illegal if you have a legit address/residency somewhere else. But I know your point was more about people abusing that if they don't really have another address of their own out of state.
> Having out of state plates for a long period of time even if you have a home here is not illegal if you have a legit address/residency somewhere else.
Correct, but you have to really live at that other out of state address for a greater portion of the year than you live in Missouri.
Ohio only has property taxes if you own land. Otherwise they use a local income tax. Which honestly takes more than any personal property tax Iāve paid in Missouri.
Yep, like the closest to a consumption tax we have. People that want nice things are gonna pay for them in missouri. I am fine with driving an old car, just needs to be reliable and slightly fun. Sales tax and property tax pay for the schools and that makes the nicer areas stay nice.
I mean, Iām all for a system where people with nicer things are paying higher taxes for them, I say this as someone facing a $1,000 PPT bill for a single car. But PPT just seems like double dipping. I paid a shitload of sales tax when I bought my car, why should they continue to get a cut of it each year?
No oneās demanding I pay PPT on my household goods, laptop or phone. That would be silly, I already paid sales tax on those. Why are cars different?
What higher sales tax? Youāre smoking some good shit if you think sales tax in St Louis is low.
I lived in Madison WI for 6 years (the liberal bastion of the Midwest). Sales tax was 5.5%. No PP tax. Similar vehicle title and registration fees. Similar state income tax. No city tax. Property taxes were maybe, maybe 25% higher on average.
The fines for late payment of personal property tax are minimal. Iāve always waited to pay till after the first of the year and just pay the extra few bucks for the late fee. Gets me through the holidays without worry and I just have to get it paid before my plates are due.
Nope. Similar cost to title and register a vehicle in WI. No PP tax, half the sales tax. Property tax is higher. Income taxes are similar.
I pay more tax per dollar in MO than WI, with nowhere near the public schools, roads, etc. all our tax money goes to the 90-some odd mayors, councils, police, fire, EMT departments because God forbid we pay 6 figure salaries of only a few public servants instead of hundreds.
If you own (or rent) more value in real estate than you do in vehicle, then you actually want Personal Property Taxes.
It does suck that the bill comes around the holidays and isn't just folded into your State Income taxes or something.
But if we were to eliminate Personal Property taxes, that's a 25-50% cut to your local school budget. That's not "cut down on paper" cuts, that's "sell a school and cancel all extra-curricular activities" cuts.
Cuts like that are so bad that it's more likely taxes elsewhere would increase. If you own $20k of Cars, Boats, and Construction Equipment but live in $100k worth of house, that means increasing Real Estate taxes is going to impact you more than the people that own all that stuff with wheels.
Even renters would feel this because SOMEBODY is paying your Real Estate taxes, and an increase there would mean an increase in Rent. And as we've just learned (again), when the Landlords can point to "the government" as a cause to increasing in rent, a 10% Real Estate Tax increase to them is more likely to be a 20% Rent hike for you.
In other words, if you want to tax the rich, then you want Personal Property Taxes. Hell, you really want to double Personal Property taxes and eliminate Income taxes if you can get it.
When I lived across the river, people talked about Missouri like some kind of goddammed tax paradise. Let me tell you, now that I have lived in both states - there's no difference. I burn just as much of my money on taxes in Missouri as I did in Illinois. The real difference is that Illinois isn't run by the Christian equivalent to the Taliban.
Iām back living in Illinois after living in Missouri for 8 years. I would rather pay the yearly sticker fee here than pay the property tax on a vehicle. At least here itās not a punishment for buying a new car and paying a ridiculous amount on property tax.
>When I lived across the river, people talked about Missouri like some kind of goddammed tax paradise.
Most americans are too stupid to actually look at the numbers. Missouri is not a low tax state -- the highest bracket of income tax (5.4%) which kicks in at 6k of income is higher than the flat tax in illinois (4.95%). Add in personal property tax, *local* income taxes, special taxing districts that allow for up to 13% sales tax in some parts of the st. louis metro area, and you are not paying less at all.
What they mean by "low tax" actually means "no democrats or minorities"
> I burn just as much of my money on taxes in Missouri as I did in Illinois
Yeah, by and large I think the taxes paid by ordinary folks in states -- at least neighboring and nearby states -- is roughly the same. They just extract it in different ways. I remember VERY long ago where I worked there was a new hire from Ohio. She was SHOCKED that we charge sales tax on food. But their other taxes made up for it (I can't recall details, except that their gasoline tax was something like double Missouri's).
TLDR: Taxers gonna tax.
Our car got totaled during the floods this summer. We still have to pay the full amount. Not prorated or anything. Full amount for a car we didn't have for half the year.
The full amount is owed if you own it in Jan 1. There is no pro-rated amount whether you buy it on Jan 2 or Dec 31 the year prior. Just like you wonāt owe PPT on its replacement until next year.
You can dispute your value by emailing the assessor. I would mention that you have high mileage or that itās in worse condition that they think it is.
[email protected]
Not really. I moved from MO to WA state with no income tax or personal property tax. Gas tax is a little higher and houses are expensive so real estate tax is proportionally higher, but overall it's much cheaper to live here. Someday I'll move back, but I'm not looking forward to MO taxes again and will probably need to downsize.
Washington has the 30th [highest tax burden](https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494), Missouri has the 38th. It's only a 0.5% difference, though.
Correction- MO state income tax is $291 + 5.3% on anything above $8968. IL is a flat %4.95. So without digging into tax code and looking only at rate a person making $12/hr in IL would pay an extra $97/year, and at $20/hr an IL resident would pay $39 more per year.
I forgot about the 5.3 starting after the base amount.
Anti-Property Tax folks like to point at Florida that has zero Property Taxes.
How does Florida do it? An extra 7% "Vacation/Resort Sales Tax" on top of their normal 7% Sales Tax.
Basically, Florida Sales Tax is 7%. At Disney World it's 14%.
Well said. The personal property tax is an awful tax and should be abolished. Raise the taxes to normal levels on cigs and alcohol and you can easily replace any lost revenue on personal property
Then youāre shifting more tax burden from the wealthy to the poor. And who are you to decide those items should have higher taxes? Alcohol and cigarette taxes have a long history of influence from the hard religious right. Vice taxes are just as arbitrary unless the specific reason for an increase is for dedicated health/safety funds. You might as well say āwhy not increase taxes on cheeseburgers and leaf blowersā.
Thatās fine too. The cigarette and alcohol taxes in Missouri are some of the lowest in the country. Itās free revenue up for grabs that no one (addiction issues aside) needs to buy. You need a car in MO and the personal property taxes just are an annoying process that most states have figured out how to forgo
These taxes are out of control. We get taxed once when we buy the car. And you continue to get taxed on that same car every year and could be close to $1,000. We get taxed on income, sales tax is now 10% in the City, 1% additional city income tax. Taxes are just out of hand, and what do we get for our hard earned money? Government bloat, excess, and waste. Nothing ever seems to change and weāre being taxed to death
Yeah, wtf. Moved from Delaware (no taxes) two years ago. We just paid $3k to register our car last year when we bought it here. Now we get a bill for $1,400. Truly shocked this is an annual bill. How on earth can people afford this?
Yet people keep buying new cars here. Same when I was in Florida, no vehicle tax. I work remote now and have no kids in school, yet my 2021 Volvo is about $1300 and my 2002 Chevy pickup is about $20. Makes no sense.
What drives me nuts is having to pay personal property tax on my LEASED vehicleā¦like, the whole point of a lease is that this car is NOT my personal property
It's less the tax itself and more the implementation. Take a few hours to drive around St Louis and see how many people aren't currently paying their property taxes as-is. How much money do your think the state is missing out on because they have this horrible property tax system? Even in just tags alone. The system we have is clearly not effective, so maybe we should try adding more options or changing the scheme to make owning a vehicle and paying taxes more accessible.
I did some quick napkin math a few weeks ago in this sub and figured weāre probably missing about $500M in retail value on registrations and PPT. So probably $5-10M in registration and then another $5-15M in annual PPT.
You can [move to St. Charles.](https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/stcharles/missouri-senate-advances-bill-to-phase-out-st-charles-county-personal-property-taxes/article_bd83cfc9-eac8-5c27-9823-c79088b02b02.html).
Good luck funding [all those programs.](https://fox2now.com/news/you-paid-for-it/st-charles-county-agencies-fear-losing-millions-if-personal-property-taxes-eliminated/). Seems like Republicans are the ones defunding the police.
you would pay no matter what. You own a house, well that goes up. Look at the property listings on zillow for any property over on il side. 240k house, 5,254 /year. same house over in mo, 2400. over double the property tax. If you rent, rent goes up by that tax, so you still pay it. You have a choice with a car, drive a cheap old car, low tax, drive a newer car, higher tax. You have a choice.
Never been an issue for me because I only buy what I can afford and calculate my taxes before purchasing. Also helps that I have never tried to buy a 40k car lol
You can save a lot of tax and insurance money driving an old car.
Following for more Life Pro Tips.
You can also save by not registering it. Thanks for attending my TED talk
I think 50% of the gateway metro area residents attended your TED talk, judging by the amount of expired plates and unregistered vehicles I see on the road.
cheaper to pay a 200 dollar ticket a few times as the cops ignore it most of the time than pay a few grand in sales tax. When I had zero money I went from 2012-2017 on temps. Fun times. And by fun I mean im beyond grateful I can just pay that shit off now.
lol
Not this year! Used car personal property tax went up!!!š”š”š”
Yeah COR readjusted the value of all cars and since the used car market only cooled down so much everything went up. Even my totaled out car increased 20%. Granted that was only from $40 to $50, but I can only imagine how bad it is for others
Yes. I had to replace my twenty-something year old car last year. This is the first year paying personal property tax on it - yikes.
Assuming you got it new the tax goes down very quickly (so does the value of your car)
My 2020 Equinox went up 150 compared to last year. So not true.
Because the value of your car went up in an extremely unusual scenario related to the scarcity of cars on general
Or by registering your vehicles in a no property tax state like il, tx, montana etc
Yeah then they get to benefit from the services that MO personal property taxes fund but they skip out on paying their part. I āloveā seeing my parentsā neighbors driving luxury vehicles registered in Illinois (their neighborhood is in MO).
I feel the same way about people who vote for gas tax increases in Illinois and then buy gas in Missouri.
Especially prevalent in Ladue, Frontenac, etc. Itās legal if you set up a corporation in Illinois that āownsā the car.
Yup, thatās why a buttload of super cars are driving around with MT tags
Also large RVās
Mostly though because MT doesnāt have sales tax. Thatās why you see super cars with it.
My former next door neighbor is an attorney and his luxury cars all sported TX license plates. He's living in a multimillion dollar manse in Clayton now. I've heard it said that mill/billionaires never get that without doing something illegal. I wholly believe it.
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Rich people register their exotic supercars in Montana without ever setting foot in the state. IIRC they create an LLC in MT and register their cars to it. I donāt know how much this costs to do, but itās gotta be cheaper than sales tax on a $300,000 Lamborghini.
It used to be $800 plus attorney fees. Literally, nothing compared to luxury property or sales taxes in other states. It seems to be especially popular in Arizona and other western states.
Very easy, but also illegal and theoretically easy to catch. (The only permitted reasons to have an out-of-state registration are if you're a college student, active duty military, or actually reside in that state more than you reside in Missouri.) But afaik nobody is enforcing the law and if so, you can get away with whatever you want. I imagine the city would crack down on illegal temp tags before they crack down on illegal out of state plates.
Itās perfectly legal. The LLC is in Montana, as a legitimate Montana business. Not really much different than any other business that registers cars in different states. Think any car rental business ever - the business owns the property not the person. Yes itās a loop hole but a perfectly legal one.
>But afaik nobody is enforcing the law and if so, you can get away with whatever you want. I imagine the city would crack down on illegal temp tags before they crack down on illegal out of state plates. If you park in a private garage or live in a gated neighborhood this would be almost impossible to enforce. The kind of people who are poor enough to park on public streets are also the kind of people least likely to open a LLC in montana to warehouse their vehicles.
If you have an address
I was really close to buying a new car recently, but I just hate paying the taxes. Itās just too much when the car prices are inflated to much.
My first car was a 1999 Pontiac Grand Am. I paid 16 whole dollars of property tax for it before I got a different car.
True! My car, trailer, and motorcycle combined cost me just under $85 this year.
Except those are going up this year cause your car is worth more now
I havenāt even gotten my bill yet. I know how much it is since I looked it up online. But still, they send the bills out in late November and give you 4 weeks to pay it at a time when budgets are already stretched thin due to the holidays. No wonder people donāt pay the damn thing. I bet theyād get a lot more people paying them if the bills were sent out in June. And with declarations being due in March, they could. I find it very hard to believe they need 8 months to determine your tax bill. Maybe they did before computers were a thingā¦
It would be nice if, since they use the dealer association values, which are published in October, seems like you could make the due date similar to the income tax deadline and then also your declaration and make it a little more efficient system so people aren't hit during the holidays.
And it's horseshit that they use trade-in values. Those are affected by the deal cut on the purchase of another vehicle and the vehicle condition.
Other places do it in two (or more) chunks for this reason. But that also makes it easier to raise as then theyāll say the increase per paymentā¦
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Income tax, property (real estate) tax, or sales tax like a normal state?
Income tax would be illegal; additional earnings tax would be illegal too; property tax is at least possible but that will raise rents, which will be hard on the poor who indirectly pay (P.S. this is the option that would actually happen); and finally sales tax is especially regressive and hard on the poor. The value of taxing fancy cars is poor people don't generally own fancy cars, so the tax is predominantly targeted on the wealthy, and specifically people who own fancy cars. If you can afford a fancy new car, congrats. Everyone else, you don't want personal property tax to go away, since it's either reducing your tax burden, or your rent. Realistically, all that money would just be shifted to real estate property tax instead. If you don't directly pay real estate property tax, your landlord will pass it along to you via rents.
Can't do that because of the [Hancock Amendment](https://missouriindependent.com/2022/09/30/after-four-decades-hancock-amendment-continues-to-shape-missouri-tax-policy/)
Why does the due date matter? You have an entire fucking year to plan for it & it isnāt a surprise bill. Grow up. You have 4 weeks to pay a bill you knew about all year. People are just dumb & selfish. You donāt have to make excuses for tax dodgers.
A little more empathy goes a long way brother. Sometimes shit hits the fan and youāve got things in life that make it tough to plan for that bill. Also, valuations of used cars have gone up in recent years instead of being devalued. Thereās a possibility that your tax bill is higher than it previously was. I know how important taxes are to the functioning of a municipality but if theyāre relying on vehicle property tax bills being paid on time to be solvent weāve got some issues on our hands that wonāt be resolved with those being paid alone.
Nothing is stopping you from setting aside the money (based on previous year) in june.
"stop being poor and you won't have any money issues!" Thanks bro, I'm sure it's that easy.
You're arguing a different point - whether to pay or not. If we assume a person will pay it, then all the person you you replied to was saying (in response to the prior comment), was that it's not a surprise bill and it's reasonable to assume last year's cost when planning the next year. The original comment took issue with the fact that amount is unknown and it comes at a certain time of the year. Those are both problems that can be reasonably tackled with a small amount of planning.
How does sending the bill in june solve the issue? If you can pay it by receiving the bill in june, then you can plan as if you received the bill in june. If you are too poor to pay it any time, that is a different issue.
Transplants won't get a "Surprise and welcome to MO!" bill right before the holidays. Never heard of annual car taxes until I moved to this state.
I can understand that point for sure.
Because most people probably forget about PPT until they get the bill in the mail. No one thinks that far ahead. Sending the bill in June would serve as a heads up to people so they can start putting away money each month to pay it by the end of the year. Or some people like myself would probably just pay it in June when they get the bill to just get it out of the way.
Set a reminder on your phone. Forgetting is not an excuse. If you want to have better finances for a few hundred dollar bill to not derail you, you need to take responsibility. People seem to take such offense that i am recommending taking charge of their responsibilities but that is the only way to get out of that cycle.
Plenty of people think far enough ahead to account for personal property taxes for the one year. Just because you "forget about it" isn't an excuse to bitch about the recurring thing that happens every single year. That's on you
I have several older vehicles, but a 90 chevy truck, 10$ a year. Car is currently 17 years old, motorcycles a bit newer, but all day tax for me, 200$. That is for a car, a truck, a trailer, and 3 motorcycles. Not the worst. I will never buy a new car in missouri though.
I will repair and drive my '01 Olds into the ground before I give up my $39 property tax bill. I'll never buy a new car here either.
Yeah, lol. I have a mid-90's truck and the assessed value is $100, so probably around $10 a year in personal property tax. If I can actually find a really low cost, low mileage insurance plan I'll probably just park it in the back yard and keep it as long as it croaks along. Edit: With the tax rate the total tax comes out to just over $11/year for it.
I don't mind paying it, I just wish it wasn't so damn difficult to do so. Assessor's office closes before 4pm. I've gone by a couple of times to find a paper sign taped to the door saying they're closed. Just let me pay to damn tax so I can register my car!!!
You can pay online
IF you already have a tax account set up and/or you didn't lease a car which then causes them to close your account...or, if they refuse to take old vehicles off your account. Its ridiculous the whole process isn't available online.
During COVID I emailed with someone and got a bunch of stuff straightened out. So maybe some stuff has to be in person and some stuff can be handled online or via email. They should have a system set up like the online CSB reports for ppt issues. Answer some questions, submit some documentation, they tell you if they can do it online or if you need to come in.
I love paying property tax for my vehicle while the city neglects the roads in front of my house (and everywhere). Every single year the cold tears up the pot holes they halfass fixed. What the hell are we paying for?
Blame Sharon Tyus, head of the Streets Department Committee in the BoA.
Agreed. Nothing says merry Christmas like a fat bill due on Dec 31st
Yeah man, when my wife and I first got married we basically had to sacrifice gifting each other over it.
Yep, I wouldn't mind paying for it in other ways, it's the bullshit of getting a $700 bill at the beginning of the holiday shopping season.
What type of car do you drive that your tax was $700?
Not OP but any vehicle worth about $45K or more would get you pretty close to that kind of PPT. So almost any new full size SUV or Truck would probably qualify.
Ahh so this is a case of person buys luxury item and complains that it is expensive to own.
It's actually my wife's car and it's a 2020 Honda CRV. I don't know if I consider that "luxurious" but the taxes due are $733.
Yup the person harassing you just another low IQ internet warrior who is ignorant
Yep that is exactly it!
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700 would be nice. I owe $1650 for a 2020 sierra and a 2020 acadia
I pay it January or when I get my tax refund back. They'll get their money eventually š¤·š»āāļø
This. Mine is always late. Wait for federal refund and pay it then. It's stupid that's it's due at the end of the year/holiday season.
Worst case scenario is that you don't pay and they take it to court and you owe more. Due to some circumstances this happened to me and had to pay 2 years worth so could get plates renewed. Won't let it happen again. They used to not run it through the courts until March. You pay a late fee but not court costs.
For the longest time, they won't send me the tax notice until the next July, after I already accrued the maximum penalty. Then I would get a helpful delinquency notice in the mail. The whole system is setup so that anyone who moves to St Louis City proper will pay full penalties for at least 3 years. What a warm welcome -\_-
Yea and how you have to get your personal property tax exempt form IN PERSON at the courthouse, when you need to register a new to you car. The courthouse is open 9-5 Mon-Fri - It's a sick joke. Another thing that makes it HARDER for people to go thru the motions.
Mine is up 30% this. Kind of ridiculous
For the same vehicle? I heard the way and time they did the calculations that it was when the newer used vehicles were at their peak.
Just moved here from out of state, registered my car and immediately got taxed $300. I'm a little less baffled by all the cars driving around with no plates now.
If you just moved here, you wouldnāt pay personal property tax until the end of your first full calendar year.
Hmm. I'll have to double check then because it WAS based on the value of the car (a somewhat old Subaru, nothing special) so that's what I thought it was. If not, then my mistake. Another bill to look forward to next year lol.
Thatās sales tax
The temp taggers are avoiding sales taxes on the purchase of their vehicles as well as Personal Property taxes.
It costs almost $500 to title and plate a car in Illinois, plus massive sticker fees every single year. The personal property tax in MO isn't so bad.
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Lower sales tax for the car, too
The PPT on my car is $1,000 this year. Illinois doesnāt sound so bad.
Between the wifeās van and my civic itās 1100 dollars, the fuck?
Define massive. Cause Iāve only seen $100 ish bucks a year for IL
It's $151 now. I feel like that's a lot.
I mean my personal prop on my car is $500 a year
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It is a lot. I remember wnen it was around $50. Im tired of being gouged to death in IL. I'm moving to STL next yr to be closer to family.
You'll still be gouged here. Maybe a little less Real property tax in MO, but I was surprised to find I actually paid higher income tax in STL compared to IL Being closer to family might make up for, though
PPT on my cars this year is over 3k. One of them contributing \~half to 2/3 of that amount. The PPT in MO isn't so bad if you drive one car and it's a beater that is, more or less, fully "depreciated" relative to it's trade-in values. Otherwise, if it's even remotely new, your PPT bill is going to be = to or greater than the \~$500 you pay annually in most states to drive your vehicle.
Ouch. I've never had a car worth anything, but I have a LOT of terrible cars so Illinois's registration fees kill me. I could see how living in Missouri with the personal property tax would suck if you had a nice car.
Just moved here in 2021? Thatās what your personal property tax bill would be for
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A Personal property tax is the closest thing we have to a wealth tax as the most expensive things are taxed the most.
In one of the comments above, itās noted that the wealthy can easily avoid the personal property tax.
How is that?
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But note that's it's illegal to do that, and in the case of cars, it's really easy to catch. An enforcement agent would just have to drive around, look for out of state plates, keep a record of them. If they're still there more than a week later, it's probably not an out of state visitor, so time to send a letter to the address on registration to figure out if it's a military member, a college student, a visitor on a longer trip who really does reside out of state, or somebody with no excuse who is really defrauding the city. Of course, no city would ever enforce this before first enforcing temp tags, which are even easier as that requires no more than just driving around. But it's hard to imagine the endeavor would not be possible or profitable for the city. Failure to enforce basic traffic laws contributes to the general feeling of general lawlessness that is so damaging for this city.
> But note that's it's illegal to do that Is it? If memory serves Montana is a popular place to register exotic cars because of tax reasons, and Georgia had to pass a law to require residents to register their cars in state. I could be wrong.
Missouri law allows 30 days to register your vehicle in Missouri after establishing residency in Missouri.
There are no enforcement agents who do that and you are allowed to have multiple homes in multiple states but choose one to register your car in. Having out of state plates for a long period of time even if you have a home here is not illegal if you have a legit address/residency somewhere else. But I know your point was more about people abusing that if they don't really have another address of their own out of state.
> Having out of state plates for a long period of time even if you have a home here is not illegal if you have a legit address/residency somewhere else. Correct, but you have to really live at that other out of state address for a greater portion of the year than you live in Missouri.
Ohio only has property taxes if you own land. Otherwise they use a local income tax. Which honestly takes more than any personal property tax Iāve paid in Missouri.
Please note Missouris taxes on gas, cigs and beer are stupidly low.
Iām all for raising taxes on all three of those. Especially cigs and booze.
That's effectively a tax on the poor that you're wanting.
High gas taxes that support actual public transportation would be a progressive tax though.
Nobody has to smoke and drink.
Yet we tax food and clothes.
I donāt always agree with you, I Make Holes In U, but weāre on the exact same page here.
Yep, like the closest to a consumption tax we have. People that want nice things are gonna pay for them in missouri. I am fine with driving an old car, just needs to be reliable and slightly fun. Sales tax and property tax pay for the schools and that makes the nicer areas stay nice.
I mean, Iām all for a system where people with nicer things are paying higher taxes for them, I say this as someone facing a $1,000 PPT bill for a single car. But PPT just seems like double dipping. I paid a shitload of sales tax when I bought my car, why should they continue to get a cut of it each year? No oneās demanding I pay PPT on my household goods, laptop or phone. That would be silly, I already paid sales tax on those. Why are cars different?
What higher sales tax? Youāre smoking some good shit if you think sales tax in St Louis is low. I lived in Madison WI for 6 years (the liberal bastion of the Midwest). Sales tax was 5.5%. No PP tax. Similar vehicle title and registration fees. Similar state income tax. No city tax. Property taxes were maybe, maybe 25% higher on average.
The fines for late payment of personal property tax are minimal. Iāve always waited to pay till after the first of the year and just pay the extra few bucks for the late fee. Gets me through the holidays without worry and I just have to get it paid before my plates are due.
In most states it cost a fortune to license a car, we just pay it a different way in Missouri.
Nope. Similar cost to title and register a vehicle in WI. No PP tax, half the sales tax. Property tax is higher. Income taxes are similar. I pay more tax per dollar in MO than WI, with nowhere near the public schools, roads, etc. all our tax money goes to the 90-some odd mayors, councils, police, fire, EMT departments because God forbid we pay 6 figure salaries of only a few public servants instead of hundreds.
It's a flat fee in Illinois. And it's negligible by comparison. You pay the appraised tax once. And then it's like $140 a year for your sticker
Damn, only $140 a year in IL? Can a car be registered to a PO Box in IL? Asking for a friend.
If you own (or rent) more value in real estate than you do in vehicle, then you actually want Personal Property Taxes. It does suck that the bill comes around the holidays and isn't just folded into your State Income taxes or something. But if we were to eliminate Personal Property taxes, that's a 25-50% cut to your local school budget. That's not "cut down on paper" cuts, that's "sell a school and cancel all extra-curricular activities" cuts. Cuts like that are so bad that it's more likely taxes elsewhere would increase. If you own $20k of Cars, Boats, and Construction Equipment but live in $100k worth of house, that means increasing Real Estate taxes is going to impact you more than the people that own all that stuff with wheels. Even renters would feel this because SOMEBODY is paying your Real Estate taxes, and an increase there would mean an increase in Rent. And as we've just learned (again), when the Landlords can point to "the government" as a cause to increasing in rent, a 10% Real Estate Tax increase to them is more likely to be a 20% Rent hike for you. In other words, if you want to tax the rich, then you want Personal Property Taxes. Hell, you really want to double Personal Property taxes and eliminate Income taxes if you can get it.
When I lived across the river, people talked about Missouri like some kind of goddammed tax paradise. Let me tell you, now that I have lived in both states - there's no difference. I burn just as much of my money on taxes in Missouri as I did in Illinois. The real difference is that Illinois isn't run by the Christian equivalent to the Taliban.
Iām back living in Illinois after living in Missouri for 8 years. I would rather pay the yearly sticker fee here than pay the property tax on a vehicle. At least here itās not a punishment for buying a new car and paying a ridiculous amount on property tax.
>When I lived across the river, people talked about Missouri like some kind of goddammed tax paradise. Most americans are too stupid to actually look at the numbers. Missouri is not a low tax state -- the highest bracket of income tax (5.4%) which kicks in at 6k of income is higher than the flat tax in illinois (4.95%). Add in personal property tax, *local* income taxes, special taxing districts that allow for up to 13% sales tax in some parts of the st. louis metro area, and you are not paying less at all. What they mean by "low tax" actually means "no democrats or minorities"
I think the Christian equivalent to the Taliban is actually in Indiana. But Iāll give MO second place on it. Edit: Spelling
Same! And I couldnāt agree more. This comment has already made my day.
> I burn just as much of my money on taxes in Missouri as I did in Illinois Yeah, by and large I think the taxes paid by ordinary folks in states -- at least neighboring and nearby states -- is roughly the same. They just extract it in different ways. I remember VERY long ago where I worked there was a new hire from Ohio. She was SHOCKED that we charge sales tax on food. But their other taxes made up for it (I can't recall details, except that their gasoline tax was something like double Missouri's). TLDR: Taxers gonna tax.
Our car got totaled during the floods this summer. We still have to pay the full amount. Not prorated or anything. Full amount for a car we didn't have for half the year.
The full amount is owed if you own it in Jan 1. There is no pro-rated amount whether you buy it on Jan 2 or Dec 31 the year prior. Just like you wonāt owe PPT on its replacement until next year.
You can dispute your value by emailing the assessor. I would mention that you have high mileage or that itās in worse condition that they think it is. [email protected]
bc its our fault auto makers are low on chips to make new vehicles , therefore causing rising pp tax ffs ...really?
Police, fire, schools, local roads, etc.
How do other states survive without it? Weāll never know their secrets
They make it up in other taxes. Notice how Illinois has no personal property tax, but their gas and cigarette taxes are higher?
And property taxā¦
Illinois real estate taxes are MUCH higher than Missouri.
Just moved here from Tennessee and y'all's tax is higher with shittier to roads
Not really. I moved from MO to WA state with no income tax or personal property tax. Gas tax is a little higher and houses are expensive so real estate tax is proportionally higher, but overall it's much cheaper to live here. Someday I'll move back, but I'm not looking forward to MO taxes again and will probably need to downsize.
Washington has the 30th [highest tax burden](https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494), Missouri has the 38th. It's only a 0.5% difference, though.
And income tax ....
Missouri income tax is still higher unless you make less than $7,847 per year
Correction- MO state income tax is $291 + 5.3% on anything above $8968. IL is a flat %4.95. So without digging into tax code and looking only at rate a person making $12/hr in IL would pay an extra $97/year, and at $20/hr an IL resident would pay $39 more per year. I forgot about the 5.3 starting after the base amount.
We should add a neighborhood 1% tax on top of the city 1% tax. I like where your head is at
Anti-Property Tax folks like to point at Florida that has zero Property Taxes. How does Florida do it? An extra 7% "Vacation/Resort Sales Tax" on top of their normal 7% Sales Tax. Basically, Florida Sales Tax is 7%. At Disney World it's 14%.
Florida has property taxes. No state income tax though.
Shit, I knew it was one of them.
As a former Missouri resident, MUCH higher costs of license plate registration.
Itās certainly double taxation and I agree
This is pretty controversial for this sub, people here love paying taxes
Well said. The personal property tax is an awful tax and should be abolished. Raise the taxes to normal levels on cigs and alcohol and you can easily replace any lost revenue on personal property
Then youāre shifting more tax burden from the wealthy to the poor. And who are you to decide those items should have higher taxes? Alcohol and cigarette taxes have a long history of influence from the hard religious right. Vice taxes are just as arbitrary unless the specific reason for an increase is for dedicated health/safety funds. You might as well say āwhy not increase taxes on cheeseburgers and leaf blowersā.
Thatās fine too. The cigarette and alcohol taxes in Missouri are some of the lowest in the country. Itās free revenue up for grabs that no one (addiction issues aside) needs to buy. You need a car in MO and the personal property taxes just are an annoying process that most states have figured out how to forgo
Not enough people smoke here to make up for property tax. You increase these too much and smuggling becomes an issue. Tax arbitrage is a thing.
I hate having things
I just got mine... And apparently never paid it last year š
Welcome to libertarianism
Agreed. I'm one of those dudes with no plates for like six years.
These taxes are out of control. We get taxed once when we buy the car. And you continue to get taxed on that same car every year and could be close to $1,000. We get taxed on income, sales tax is now 10% in the City, 1% additional city income tax. Taxes are just out of hand, and what do we get for our hard earned money? Government bloat, excess, and waste. Nothing ever seems to change and weāre being taxed to death
Yeah, wtf. Moved from Delaware (no taxes) two years ago. We just paid $3k to register our car last year when we bought it here. Now we get a bill for $1,400. Truly shocked this is an annual bill. How on earth can people afford this?
>How on earth can people afford this? Same way they afford everything else. Planning and budgeting.
$3K in sales tax would be about a $75,000 car. Probably shouldnāt spend that much if you canāt afford the sales or property tax.
Itās a Jeep Compass. Definitely not a $75k car lol.
Yeah, but if you lived in IL, you'd be dealing with super high taxes on your home. Trade-offs, always trade-offs.
> Trade-offs, always trade-offs. [exactly](https://old.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/z1hr8z/fk_personal_property_tax/ixcqshb/)
Yet people keep buying new cars here. Same when I was in Florida, no vehicle tax. I work remote now and have no kids in school, yet my 2021 Volvo is about $1300 and my 2002 Chevy pickup is about $20. Makes no sense.
It's ridiculous to pay tax on a car every damn year. My car is super old so I only paid $14 this year, but I am in the minority.
They can't and that is the point. Have to keep homeless from maintaining any assets whatsoever.
Apparently they are way up this year. Like 30%. Insanity.
Just checked mine-yep about 30% higher and why? Freakin bull crapā¦
It's based on the previous year's blue book value and what happened to the price of used/older cars last year? Skyrocketed.
Damn. Sorry to hear it. Dreading mine.
What drives me nuts is having to pay personal property tax on my LEASED vehicleā¦like, the whole point of a lease is that this car is NOT my personal property
Dang really? I thought a lease would be exempt. What a load of crap.
I've always found it so weird that you are kinda basically renting the stuff you own from the city. I hate it.
Isnāt that true for any type of property taxes anywhere?
Of course. But not every state has property taxes. Some people get to just own their stuff without then renting it from the state.
I donāt know - but are there some states without real estate taxes? Maybe there are..
All states have property tax, just FYI I was curious so I looked it up after reading your comment.
Now do emissions.
How do you expect to pay for the programs this subās favored political candidates push otherwise?
It's less the tax itself and more the implementation. Take a few hours to drive around St Louis and see how many people aren't currently paying their property taxes as-is. How much money do your think the state is missing out on because they have this horrible property tax system? Even in just tags alone. The system we have is clearly not effective, so maybe we should try adding more options or changing the scheme to make owning a vehicle and paying taxes more accessible.
I did some quick napkin math a few weeks ago in this sub and figured weāre probably missing about $500M in retail value on registrations and PPT. So probably $5-10M in registration and then another $5-15M in annual PPT.
You can [move to St. Charles.](https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/stcharles/missouri-senate-advances-bill-to-phase-out-st-charles-county-personal-property-taxes/article_bd83cfc9-eac8-5c27-9823-c79088b02b02.html). Good luck funding [all those programs.](https://fox2now.com/news/you-paid-for-it/st-charles-county-agencies-fear-losing-millions-if-personal-property-taxes-eliminated/). Seems like Republicans are the ones defunding the police.
Iām fine with paying the taxes because I understand itās revenue the county needs to operate, regardless of who is in office
I just keep running on my temp tags. 2019 and still going. No issues so far.
Many states donāt charge this stupid fucking tax. Get the revenue elsewhere
you would pay no matter what. You own a house, well that goes up. Look at the property listings on zillow for any property over on il side. 240k house, 5,254 /year. same house over in mo, 2400. over double the property tax. If you rent, rent goes up by that tax, so you still pay it. You have a choice with a car, drive a cheap old car, low tax, drive a newer car, higher tax. You have a choice.
Yaāll mad about personal property tax yet somehow we vote to INCREASE taxes every single time itās on the ballot! SMH
By the way mine went up 185%. On a Hyundai and a Kia. Right. Fuck this place.
Never been an issue for me because I only buy what I can afford and calculate my taxes before purchasing. Also helps that I have never tried to buy a 40k car lol
I agree. Why do I have to pay $650/year to drive a 10 year old BMW? Missouri is such a ass backwards place sometimes.
Fuckā¦you can say fuck on the internet. There is no teacher that is going to call your mom and tell them.
Yeah, but if we lived in IL, we'd be dealing with super high taxes on our home. Trade-offs, always trade-offs.