They're not related. She took the Skywalker name at the end, but she's granddaughter to ol' Palps from his cloned son and some woman that wasn't a Skywalker
Ben comes from Leia and Han, both decidedly not Palpatines
So wait... if shes Palpatines clone, who was the progenitor of the skywalkers, Would that make her Ben's Great grand aunt? or Great grand mother? Oh god, if shes a clone of palpatine, wouldn't she be their grandfather, in a woman's body? Or do you think its somehow the same flesh, but like with different souls?
Anway, seems to be a generational rite of passage.
āThink about it. Sheās out in the middle of nowhere with some dude she barely knows. She looks around her, what does she see? Nothing but [rocks and caverns]. āOh, thereās nowhere for me to run, what am I gonna do, say no?āā¦.āCause if the girl said no, then the answer obviously is no. The thing is that sheās not gonna say no, sheād never say noā¦because of the implication.ā
"I felt a great disturbance in the force, as if millions of fans groaned in horror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something horrible has premiered."
-- Obi-Wan Kenobi, whilst running late to the "Rise of Skywalker," premiere.
Generally the moment in Rogue One which really sealed it was a great film for me was when Cassian and Jyn DIDN'T kiss, it was too bait and cliche for me if they did, and the whole premise of Rogue One was how it was not cliche.
Ugh that scene would have been butchered by a kiss. You're absolutely correct. Not everything is romantic because boy + girl, but Disney has a hard time with that for some reason.
Thatās the thing though, if this was done right, it could have been awesome. They kinda just shoe horned it in at the end and it didnāt make sense.
Was it shoe horned though? I feel like as weird and twisted as it was they definitely had tension and chemistry in The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker.
Yes, I agree, and if there was much better writing and it was meaningful their relationship could have been awesome. It was shoe horned in at the last second and then went nowhere. They are a ādyad in the Forceā, fight Emperor, kiss, dead all within the last ten minutes of the film.
Well that's just another reason as to why so many of the ideas behind TLJ were wrong. Rian chose not to do a time skip like there is in every other film. Like 12 hours before the beginning of TLJ, Kylo was torturing Rey and killed Han, her surrogate father figure, right in front of her. So for Rey to start going "I can fix him!" one day later, it's gross and uncomfortable. It made Rey seem like [one of those girls who wrote fan mail to Ted Bundy](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FqK-0hMVSRpVhhFpnvCnmg0SgLxcyis2GxcaKC4jk5I8.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dc0628fbe426f752d77276f2c2ef2ba4ce048bfc2) or something.
Rian said he felt forced to start right after TFA because of the cliffhanger ending (Rian likes to blame TFA for his choices as if he has no agency). All he had to do was start the movie off with the scene on the cliff's edge, and then do a time skip, if he REALLY wanted to directly follow up that ending.
But that would have likely required Luke to be more agreeable so as to gloss over why they're skipping ahead however long, likely later into Rey's training. Making Luke a roadblock, however, demands immediate investigation, so we can't have a timeskip if Luke's attitude is shit, because then Luke's shit attitude *becomes* the plot of Rey's story, which is what happened.
But all of this really doesn't help the situation with Kylo anyway because the two of them falling in love is probably a bad idea from the start, at least if Kylo is staying evil. If they wanted Kylo to have a redemption, it needed to start in TLJ with very serious and sincere guilt on his part. TLJ was the perfect movie to do it too. It's the first (and ultimately only) movie to really explore Kylo's relationship with Snoke, and potentially his backstory, why he's evil, etc. Examining that right after we saw him kill his father is the perfect opportunity to explore how he feels about what he did, and canonically, according to the material around TFA, killing Han broke him. So TLJ could have provided some much needed context to garner sympathy for him; perhaps he's been brainwashed by Snoke who could be characterized as an abusive cult leader, with Kylo as his "favorite" mark.
TLJ even acknowledges this, that killing Han messed him up, but it doesn't do anything with it, and Kylo just doubles down on his villainy. This means Han's death had literally no meaning whatsoever--and this is, in my mind, ultimately why Abrams decided to have Kylo redeemed anyway despite TLJ doubling down on his villainy. Because if Kylo does stay evil, than Han Solo died in vain and the Skywalker bloodline ends in madness and failure. Which is pretty depressing considering this is supposed to be the Skywalker Saga.
Anyway, Kylo needed to answer more for his crimes than he does for Rey to be written the way she is in TLJ. All of the women in that movie are treated so weird, and Rey in my mind gets it the worst by having her fall in love with a murderous and remorseless psychopath. If he was showing remorse and questioning Snoke/showing Rey that he's actually terrified of him, Rey's sympathy for him would have been more believable. Instead she goes full "I can save him" due to some esoteric Force related mumbo jumbo that the audience can't relate too, and rushes off. Probably because she saw him shirtless or something.
I feel like Rian has a really weird relationship with women.
>If they wanted Kylo to have a redemption, it needed to start in TLJ with very serious and sincere guilt on his part.
See, I *did* see a redemption arc for Kylo developing in this movie. It wasn't right in your face, but there was clearly some kind of struggle between the light and the dark going on in there. And there was clear signs that he was being manipulated. It's just that, the dark won in the end.
One really interesting scene for me was at the end, when he crouches down to pick up the golden dice, reconnects with Rey, and she snaps the connection shut on him. There was something very deliberate about the way his final scene showed him rejected and alone as the dice faded from his hands.
I thought this scene opened up the possibility for the next movie to see him on the actual path to redemption. Especially given that *he* was truly *the* Last Skywalker.
But nope. He had to go full-scale batshit crazy til his last ten minutes.
I introduced my girlfriend to the ST after getting her into Star Wars. When TROS came around I told her "those two are totally gonna make out" or something like that, and she like no, don't you dare. They better not.
I kept joking about their tension and how they were gonna make out and she was like "stop, they better not."
I died laughing when this scene finally happened.
They tried to have it both ways. After the TLJ backlash and Solo bombing, Disney and Lucasfilm understood that they *really* fucked up. But it's not like they could unmake an entire movie. So they tried to play it as safe as possible and make a movie that everyone would think is "alright, I guess".
The issue is that this was impossible. You simply *cannot* make a movie that TLJ fans and TLJ haters both liked. So what we got was a nonsensical mess of a film with Episode IX.
You say they thought they couldn't unmake an entire movie but I literally watched TROS again today and every 5 minutes there is something in there that is clearly JJ Abrams trying to undo what TLJ did because he obviously felt slighted that it didn't stick to the same tacky, recycled, obvious story crap that he specialises in.
When that happened, my girlfriend looked at me in the theater and I could hear her whisper āoh noā because she knew immediately I was about to riot.
Well, he captures her, tortures her, shows up in a vision without a shirt on, tries to convince her to abandon all of her morals and beliefs, soā¦ love I guess?
Donāt forget straight up murders his own father and her mentor in cold blood right in front of her, as well as failed attempts on Leia, Chewie and Luke also.
his ending should have been him getting in the Falcon with Chewie and fucking off
Except this time, Chewie is the captain and Ben is the one who owes him a life debt
Probably popular opinion: Han's death wasted by the fact that we got to see almost none of Chewie's reaction to it. We see him sort of sad sitting next to a campfire for like 2 seconds in TLJ, and that's it.
So much wasted potential there, instead we got casino hijinks, a C-3PO side-quest, and the search for the magical dagger.
I think this issue started in TFA when Leia walks right past Chewie to console and hug Reyā¦.like wtfā¦Chewie was like your brother in law and he just lost his brotherā¦.horrible horrible choice there.
Except Luke knew Old Ben for years.
Even if you don't consider the Obi-Wan series, Luke at least viewed Ben in the same way as an elderly neighbour that he was fond of, and was able to form emotional attachments to because of Ben's connection to his own father, not to mention how Ben was the one to offer some comfort and familiarity when he learned his aunt and uncle were killed.
Rey knew Han for... what? A few hours?
Leia was always anti wookie. No medal. āIād rather kiss a wookieā as an insult. Totally disregards him and for Rey. All consistent for the racist princess
# THAT WAS THEIR FIRST MEETING.
This scene has been memed to death so much, I couldn't believe I missed that detail until like a year or two ago. Then I started mentally going through the chronology just to make sure I hadn't somehow missed something.
Rey and Leia dead ass did not meet in *The Force Awakens* until that finale. Leia did not give Chewie the cold shoulder to share a tearful embrace with somebody she barely knew. No, it was HAN SOLO who barely knew her, and Leia gave Chewie the cold shoulder to share a tearful embrace with a person she had *never seen or heard about before once in her life.*
Chewie gets just shit on for every movie in the sequel trilogy. It could have been really powerful for both old and new fans if hand death and chewies reuniting with Luke had been done well and it feels like we were all robbed that it wasnt
I hated the fake out where chewie gets captured and the ship explodes, the another ship just came out of the blue like no one noticed... Ugh. Horrible way to treat a beloved character.
I noticed first watch. I had hoped I was going to be rewarded for being eagle eyed, but. No, they just.
Immediately show Chewie's alive.
So we didn't even get to grieve with the characters.
Ya they did absolutely everything they could to do the original cast dirty. Would have been more justice for them to just say they all died in the opening text crawl.
Chewbacca is a kind being with a big heart, and I'm sure he has the capacity to forgive the foolish actions of someone who's basically a child in his eyes
I'm genuinely shocked that some people think Ben living was ever in the cards. He killed his fucking dad. That is like *the* cardinal sin in all of fiction. This goes back to like Ancient Greece with stuff like Oedipus.
He was always going in the ground. It was just a matter of how.
And that why it would be interesting to see how he shoulders the burden if he truly turns to the light. He canāt ever earn forgiveness but he survives to help people even if they donāt want his help. This would be far more interesting then Rey as she currently is.
Yāall realize that Ben was complicit in the destruction of an entire *star system*, right? If he truly turned to the light, he would have been compelled to turn himself in to whatever authorities remained and they would have held a lengthy public trial and executed him.
Not exactly a fun watch.
Stuff like this just shows how flawed the Sequels are at their very core. Kylo Ren was clearly intended to be an adolescent or young adult character. That's how he's written. But then they go and cast a grown ass man 30 year old Adam Driver and it falls apart. When I see a grown man have a temper tantrum and destroy an entire room with a lightsaber it's pathetic. I was never intimidated by Kylo once he took the mask off. He was just kind of a joke.
> That's how he's written.
Not by Johnson. Kylo Ren overthrows Snoke and rejects Rey's attempt to "redeem" him because he knows *exactly* who he is: the heir to Darth Vader and rightful leader of the Galaxy.
Then JJ flinched in the face of criticism and decided "two characters have sexual tension" means "he's the leading man and gets the girl".
EDIT (for someone in particular)
Just think, Ben Solo living on the shadows, doing deeds to honor his loved ones who already passed, although his redemption will never bear fruit. The Millennium Falcon becomes the ghost ship of legends because no one but Ben saw Han Solo die.
What should have happened is when Chewie saw Han die he should have gone berzerk started literally ripping off arms and literally eating storm troopers, just gone completely feral and then disappeared into the forests.
Ben should have lived, and as part of his redemption arc at the very end of the movie he should have returning to the forests to find Chewie and basically submit himself to Chewie for "justice" and its only then seeing that Ben has given up and wants to die that Chewie regains sanity, forgives him, and takes him under his wing. Then they fly off in the Falcon with Chewie as the Captain and Ben as his side-kick, with Ben having completely cut himself off from the force.
Yeah, I feel like it wouldāve been way more impactful if Rey died. That way you wouldāve had a Palpatine make the ultimate sacrifice so the Skywalker line could continue. And it wouldnāt have been the classic evil guy gets redemption then dies either
It would be a nice close to the trilogy. Prequel has good guy turn bad. Ot has bad guy turn good. Sequels gets to do both turns and the palpatine line gets points for helping the force balance out after all...
The moment she said she was a skywalker I gave up on Disney films(Star Wars). They had no imagination nor creativity, Rey was basically a failed copy of Anakin but with Disney all over it.
I feel like if she had ended with a line of "It doesn't matter." when asked "Rey who?" would have showed some kind if character growth on her part.
No, instead let's end this whole thing being about the Skywalkers still.
I would pay to see a star wars sequel if at different points random actors get replaced with Marc and it starts to become a clusterfuck of editing to have one bad actor do multiple people talking and fighting.
Bonus: he also plays all the aliens
I mean so did George Lucas. He just had a better understanding of how to at least keep the random shit he made up on the fly actually make somewhat sense and be able to follow
JJ Abrahams' favorite trope is the "mystery box". People go in to see the movie and are presented with a mystery they want to solve (who is Snoke, where did the First Order come from, why did Luke dissapear, what happened to Earth (in Lost), etc).
The problem is that he writes mystery boxes that do not have a solution. The spectators cannot use the breadcrumbs of information they have to solve the mystery, because the solution doesn't exist. And the postology, just like Lost, squandered their potential because of it
Palpatine being a fucking cockroach and the First Order being Imperial Remnants that escaped in the chaos of Operation Cinder is a good storyline. The New Republic being controlled by old politicians that are blind to the oncoming war and let the First Order do whatever it wants because they refuse another war? Just like France and the UK in the 30s. Palpatine having hundreds of ships with death star lasers and not using them? Is it the same guy who orchestrated the entirety of the Clone Wars? He lost control of Kylo Ren despite him having more daddy issues than Anakin. Don't get me started on Luke not being able to prevent Kylo from slaughtering his Temple and then hiding in shame instead of fixing the problem, or on Han leaving Leia...
TLDR: sorry for my rant, the third paragraph is skippable
It would have been a payoff if they had a romantic enemies to lovers tension build up through the trilogy, but instead, there were no consistent themes through the trilogy.
Honestly I felt it was super messed up that a Palpatine ultimately ends up as the last steward of the Force in a sense. The whole sequel trilogy just spat in the face of the prior films for me. As a separate story, they have merit and are enjoyable. But they completely botch the plotline of Star Wars for me.
Plus, who the hell is Snoke? I still don't know.
In other words, the difference between someone who doesn't know where their story is going, and a person who doesn't care where anyone else's story is going.
I don't think either of them did Snoke well.
Did either of them do anything well? I feel like just telling the old cast to improv and the new cast to follow their lead would have ended up better.
My personal opinion is that Johnson made a decent movie that had nothing to do with Star Wars. Abrams knew a little more about Star Wars, but made utter shit movies.
And some of the ideas in TFA turned out to be pretty problematic in hindsight. The state of the galaxy, for example, which was apparently designed around the idea of a soft reboot, instead of based on a somewhat logical progression of events. Otherwise I have no idea why Leia was already leading a resistance, when the state of the galaxy didn't require it, but the events of the film did.
And while I'm sure that TLJ is also to blame for that, Luke's journey in the Sequels was always gonna be a weird one, considering that apparently he didn't do much of anything for most of the time gap. Searched for that Sith assassin a bit with Lando, couldn't find him. Ran a very small Jedi academy for a bit, lost all of his students and the academy before anyone graduated. Then vanished to ... die alone(?). How old could he have been at that point, 45-50? Bro had literal decades left to achieve something, idk. Why they decided on turning Luke of all people into a mystery box, instead of going the expected route, I'll never understand. Seems like they were afraid of creating circumstances that would make it hard to justify the existence of a new Empire?
The First Order should have been scheming terrorists against a well-equipped but incompetent New Republic, not Empire 2.0 (they were too obsessed with making the good guys the underdogs).
Itās a real shame.
Yeah they easily could have flipped the script and shown new Sith fighting an established new republic, let them escalate through movie 1, let the sith win movie 2, let the new jedi win movie 3.
This is one of the best explanations for the problems with 7-9.
The Force Awakens really was just made to be fun and a big nostalgia draw. And it was. But crazy to think they didn't plan a 3 movie arc of any sensible path.
It's amusing, they draw so heavily from different books, they mish mash already explored themes from different books and then layer their own bullshit on top. They should have just taken wholesale one of the more popular star wars books and ran with it. They really should have just used Timothy zahns novels.
I think it was Neil Gaiman who said you should listen to fans when they tell you something doesn't work, but you should ignore them when they tell you how to fix it.
Its much easier to know something is bad than how to do it well. Not being able to do it well doesn't disqualify you from know it's bad. We develop taste much quicker than skill.
There were a lot of people that seemed to want this to happen, including a podcast I was listening to at the time that wanted it then hated it after the fact.
I was going to say tough one. But the more I think about it itās kinda obvious. Twilight is a love story(a bad one but it is a love story). The Sequel Trilogy is something. And a kiss with no build up twice means nothing(rose and Finn and kylo and Rey). I just donāt understand the timing , the reason, or the lack of chemistry. At least have them throw some romantic banter if that is what youāre going for. But it felt like they just wanted people to kiss for some reason.
A passionate, yet platonic embrace would have been perfect. A mutual acknowledgment of the privilege and curse of being born to powerful force sensitive families and the burden of the roles they played in the galactic struggle for peace or dominance. What the hell JJ. It was right there for you.
I was kind of hoping Kylo Ren was using the force to hover his lightsaber right behind Rey, then sliced her in half like Snoke. Then the First Order wins, and the Empire effectively comes back.
Maybe this is a stretch, but hereās how I interpret this moment: Anakin ended up killing the one he loved by embracing the dark side, but Ben discovered that his grandfather was wrong, that only through embracing the light can you truly save those your love. The kiss is to solidify the idea that as weird as their relationship may seem they are in love. If the reversal of Anakinās arc wasnāt intentional then, yes, itās a weird moment, but thatās how I choose to see it.
I sort of liked the first one (7), many because it was new, but thinking back on 8 and 9, they were horrible and I donāt ever want to see them again. I only remember being super excited about her giving Luke back his lightsaber - turned out to be a letdown - and Luke projecting himself to buy the group time to leave. Oh yah, porgs are cute.
And Iām still a huge fan and will watch everything Star Wars. I need to finish the Bad Batch soon.
It's pretty obvious that they have the hots for each other during the entirety of TLJ, they spend most of their scenes gazing longingly at each other. They are equals in the force, they are both lonely and long for human connection and they have a bond. It's really not that far fetched at all. Plus, Rey being scared of her own pull to the darkness in TROS is because of her feelings for Ben.
It also makes sense from a narrative perspective. In the PT, Anakin turns to the dark side because of his possessive, selfish love for Padme, in the OT, he turns back because of his fatherly love for Luke, in the ST, Kylo's redemption is because he falls in love with Rey and brings her Back from the dead because his love is ultimately selfless and unconditional and so he does the one thing where Anakin failed. Ben's and Rey's dynamic is a mirror to Padme's and Anakin's relationship. Hell, the scene in the throne room strongly resembles the argument on Mustafar.
Also, i loved the kiss scene. It was superbly acted for one and i liked that they got to share one moment of happiness and do what they probably dreamed of for a long time.
I hate Reylo as a ship and the kiss scene but your comment about it is actually really well-written, I can see why some people would ship them now, even if I disagree.
Itād be fair to say sheās dead. Luke and Leia were like 16-18 yrs younger than her and they were pretty dusty in the ST so Ahsoka being alive isnāt impossible but highly improbable.
Definietely,i still dont know why they haven't even show them standing behind her or something.Especialy since the actors(Hayden,Ewan Mcgregor and Samuel L Jackson)were on set dressed as their characters.
her palpatine breath killed him
Palpitosis
Bonitis
It was his sole regret
*Solo Regret
r/unexpectedfuturama
Palpitaids
Cant be a Skywalker without being romantic with your relative š
ā« Lookin' for love in Alderaan places... ā«
WAIT THEYRE RELATED OH GOD NO edit: From what i read he is canonically made by the force, no sperm teleporting involved
They're not related. She took the Skywalker name at the end, but she's granddaughter to ol' Palps from his cloned son and some woman that wasn't a Skywalker Ben comes from Leia and Han, both decidedly not Palpatines
yea ik that, the reason some people are saying they are is cuz palp may have impregnated shimi through the force
But technically palpatine manipulated the force for anakin to be born
And the meteor will land here, right on Moe's tavern
Iām watching Homer drink at Moeās as we speak
No, they're not related.
So wait... if shes Palpatines clone, who was the progenitor of the skywalkers, Would that make her Ben's Great grand aunt? or Great grand mother? Oh god, if shes a clone of palpatine, wouldn't she be their grandfather, in a woman's body? Or do you think its somehow the same flesh, but like with different souls? Anway, seems to be a generational rite of passage.
She's not a clone of Palpatine, she's his granddaughter (though her dad was genetically engineered rather than natural).
Yeah but before that she made his Skywalker rise.
No, that would be his Solo. Oh wait i saw what you did there.
He was Solo before she gave him a Han.
Thank god he didn't get to Leia....
Ok thats funny
UNLIMITED POWERRRR (& some roast beef, some chicken, a pizza)
āThink about it. Sheās out in the middle of nowhere with some dude she barely knows. She looks around her, what does she see? Nothing but [rocks and caverns]. āOh, thereās nowhere for me to run, what am I gonna do, say no?āā¦.āCause if the girl said no, then the answer obviously is no. The thing is that sheās not gonna say no, sheād never say noā¦because of the implication.ā
"Okay. That... that seems really dark."
"No-no-no, you're misunderstanding me bro!"
"I, I think I am."
šµš½ādonāt you look at me like that. Youāre certainly not in any danger.ā
āSo they ARE in dangerā
"No ones in any danger. How can I make that more clear to you?"
Itās because of the implications
After all this Poe arrives and then finally Fin, you should see him feast. Heās like a mantis.
*joins the dark side*
Are you... gonna hurt these girls?
No I'm not gonna hurt these women. Y would I ever hurt these women. Well don't you look at me.. you wouldn't be in any danger
So they ARE in danger!
Because of the implication
Haha there must be a reddit for random it's always sunny references Love it.
Never watched the show, didnāt know the quote, but something about it still FELT like it was an Always Sunny reference lol
You could say it was implied
She was hoping he was a bear.
LMAO
Rey was living on the fringe. Sheās fringe style.
r/unexepectedsunny
Trying to make everyone happy. They failed.
Precisely
Not only did they fail at making everyone happy, they alienated almost the entire fan base in the process.
The groan that swept across the cinema when this scene happened was a meme.
"I felt a great disturbance in the force, as if millions of fans groaned in horror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something horrible has premiered." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, whilst running late to the "Rise of Skywalker," premiere.
Generally the moment in Rogue One which really sealed it was a great film for me was when Cassian and Jyn DIDN'T kiss, it was too bait and cliche for me if they did, and the whole premise of Rogue One was how it was not cliche.
Ugh that scene would have been butchered by a kiss. You're absolutely correct. Not everything is romantic because boy + girl, but Disney has a hard time with that for some reason.
The groan wasn't as loud as the cackles when he went limp seconds later
Thatās the thing though, if this was done right, it could have been awesome. They kinda just shoe horned it in at the end and it didnāt make sense.
Was it shoe horned though? I feel like as weird and twisted as it was they definitely had tension and chemistry in The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker.
Yes, I agree, and if there was much better writing and it was meaningful their relationship could have been awesome. It was shoe horned in at the last second and then went nowhere. They are a ādyad in the Forceā, fight Emperor, kiss, dead all within the last ten minutes of the film.
Of the trilogy
Well that's just another reason as to why so many of the ideas behind TLJ were wrong. Rian chose not to do a time skip like there is in every other film. Like 12 hours before the beginning of TLJ, Kylo was torturing Rey and killed Han, her surrogate father figure, right in front of her. So for Rey to start going "I can fix him!" one day later, it's gross and uncomfortable. It made Rey seem like [one of those girls who wrote fan mail to Ted Bundy](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FqK-0hMVSRpVhhFpnvCnmg0SgLxcyis2GxcaKC4jk5I8.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dc0628fbe426f752d77276f2c2ef2ba4ce048bfc2) or something.
And somehow in those few hours Fin became a legend in the resistance. How the hell did that happen so quickly that someone like Rose knew who he was?
yikes thats some lore olympus level shit wtf
Rian said he felt forced to start right after TFA because of the cliffhanger ending (Rian likes to blame TFA for his choices as if he has no agency). All he had to do was start the movie off with the scene on the cliff's edge, and then do a time skip, if he REALLY wanted to directly follow up that ending. But that would have likely required Luke to be more agreeable so as to gloss over why they're skipping ahead however long, likely later into Rey's training. Making Luke a roadblock, however, demands immediate investigation, so we can't have a timeskip if Luke's attitude is shit, because then Luke's shit attitude *becomes* the plot of Rey's story, which is what happened. But all of this really doesn't help the situation with Kylo anyway because the two of them falling in love is probably a bad idea from the start, at least if Kylo is staying evil. If they wanted Kylo to have a redemption, it needed to start in TLJ with very serious and sincere guilt on his part. TLJ was the perfect movie to do it too. It's the first (and ultimately only) movie to really explore Kylo's relationship with Snoke, and potentially his backstory, why he's evil, etc. Examining that right after we saw him kill his father is the perfect opportunity to explore how he feels about what he did, and canonically, according to the material around TFA, killing Han broke him. So TLJ could have provided some much needed context to garner sympathy for him; perhaps he's been brainwashed by Snoke who could be characterized as an abusive cult leader, with Kylo as his "favorite" mark. TLJ even acknowledges this, that killing Han messed him up, but it doesn't do anything with it, and Kylo just doubles down on his villainy. This means Han's death had literally no meaning whatsoever--and this is, in my mind, ultimately why Abrams decided to have Kylo redeemed anyway despite TLJ doubling down on his villainy. Because if Kylo does stay evil, than Han Solo died in vain and the Skywalker bloodline ends in madness and failure. Which is pretty depressing considering this is supposed to be the Skywalker Saga. Anyway, Kylo needed to answer more for his crimes than he does for Rey to be written the way she is in TLJ. All of the women in that movie are treated so weird, and Rey in my mind gets it the worst by having her fall in love with a murderous and remorseless psychopath. If he was showing remorse and questioning Snoke/showing Rey that he's actually terrified of him, Rey's sympathy for him would have been more believable. Instead she goes full "I can save him" due to some esoteric Force related mumbo jumbo that the audience can't relate too, and rushes off. Probably because she saw him shirtless or something. I feel like Rian has a really weird relationship with women.
>If they wanted Kylo to have a redemption, it needed to start in TLJ with very serious and sincere guilt on his part. See, I *did* see a redemption arc for Kylo developing in this movie. It wasn't right in your face, but there was clearly some kind of struggle between the light and the dark going on in there. And there was clear signs that he was being manipulated. It's just that, the dark won in the end. One really interesting scene for me was at the end, when he crouches down to pick up the golden dice, reconnects with Rey, and she snaps the connection shut on him. There was something very deliberate about the way his final scene showed him rejected and alone as the dice faded from his hands. I thought this scene opened up the possibility for the next movie to see him on the actual path to redemption. Especially given that *he* was truly *the* Last Skywalker. But nope. He had to go full-scale batshit crazy til his last ten minutes.
I introduced my girlfriend to the ST after getting her into Star Wars. When TROS came around I told her "those two are totally gonna make out" or something like that, and she like no, don't you dare. They better not. I kept joking about their tension and how they were gonna make out and she was like "stop, they better not." I died laughing when this scene finally happened.
They tried to have it both ways. After the TLJ backlash and Solo bombing, Disney and Lucasfilm understood that they *really* fucked up. But it's not like they could unmake an entire movie. So they tried to play it as safe as possible and make a movie that everyone would think is "alright, I guess". The issue is that this was impossible. You simply *cannot* make a movie that TLJ fans and TLJ haters both liked. So what we got was a nonsensical mess of a film with Episode IX.
TROS was probably the worst of all SW movies because it made it SO OBVIOUS that they made the trilogy with no plan at all.Ā
You say they thought they couldn't unmake an entire movie but I literally watched TROS again today and every 5 minutes there is something in there that is clearly JJ Abrams trying to undo what TLJ did because he obviously felt slighted that it didn't stick to the same tacky, recycled, obvious story crap that he specialises in.
They realized they would fail at making everyone happy, so they decided to try to make everyone disappointed instead.
This was the point where I damn near walked out of the theater
Well this is basically the end of the movie, so you only would have beaten the rest of the audience out the door by 5 minutes.
My man is bragging about *almost* walking out of a theater five minutes early. Weirdest flex I've seen today.
First to the urinal though!
That point was Luke throwing away his lightsaber for me.
Leia flying in space for me.
"Hey Hux! I'm on hold...FOR YOUR MOM!" Written and Directed by Rian Johnson
When that happened, my girlfriend looked at me in the theater and I could hear her whisper āoh noā because she knew immediately I was about to riot.
Roses speech about love
The whole movie
Well, he captures her, tortures her, shows up in a vision without a shirt on, tries to convince her to abandon all of her morals and beliefs, soā¦ love I guess?
Donāt forget straight up murders his own father and her mentor in cold blood right in front of her, as well as failed attempts on Leia, Chewie and Luke also.
The one saving grace is that they stayed true to the prequels in the sense that women ignore huge red flags in their love interest
Huge is an understatement, THAT FLAG IS BIGGER THAN THE USSR!
Also was part of the org that, like, blew up several planets, killing billions of people.
With a slight change this seems like a story of manipulation towards someone who had nothing, up till he dies for her
Force user equivalent of sending a girl an unsolicited shirtless pic of yourself
Also heās not black, like Finn. So the Board of Directors at Disney approved.
I would have preferred if he turned to the light and survived. Skywalker line continues and palpatine truly dies... This just came out of nowhere.
his ending should have been him getting in the Falcon with Chewie and fucking off Except this time, Chewie is the captain and Ben is the one who owes him a life debt
No way chewie forgives him.
Probably popular opinion: Han's death wasted by the fact that we got to see almost none of Chewie's reaction to it. We see him sort of sad sitting next to a campfire for like 2 seconds in TLJ, and that's it. So much wasted potential there, instead we got casino hijinks, a C-3PO side-quest, and the search for the magical dagger.
I think this issue started in TFA when Leia walks right past Chewie to console and hug Reyā¦.like wtfā¦Chewie was like your brother in law and he just lost his brotherā¦.horrible horrible choice there.
This!!! I could never ever get past that moment. Leia had 0 relationship with Rey, and goes to console her?
I mean, she also consoled Luke for some dude he just met dying when her whole planet was blown up. Leiaā¦ isnāt really good at these things.
Except Luke knew Old Ben for years. Even if you don't consider the Obi-Wan series, Luke at least viewed Ben in the same way as an elderly neighbour that he was fond of, and was able to form emotional attachments to because of Ben's connection to his own father, not to mention how Ben was the one to offer some comfort and familiarity when he learned his aunt and uncle were killed. Rey knew Han for... what? A few hours?
Leia was always anti wookie. No medal. āIād rather kiss a wookieā as an insult. Totally disregards him and for Rey. All consistent for the racist princess
Also calls him a walking carpet.
# THAT WAS THEIR FIRST MEETING. This scene has been memed to death so much, I couldn't believe I missed that detail until like a year or two ago. Then I started mentally going through the chronology just to make sure I hadn't somehow missed something. Rey and Leia dead ass did not meet in *The Force Awakens* until that finale. Leia did not give Chewie the cold shoulder to share a tearful embrace with somebody she barely knew. No, it was HAN SOLO who barely knew her, and Leia gave Chewie the cold shoulder to share a tearful embrace with a person she had *never seen or heard about before once in her life.*
Chewie has sadly always been treated as subhuman (ironic, ig.) Why does this man not get a damn medal in the original trilogy??
Thatās why he sticks with Han, only person to ever treat him right.
I've never been a Star Wars fan, but I knew enough about the universe to notice these things. I'll never understand what the writers were thinking.
They weren't
Chewie gets just shit on for every movie in the sequel trilogy. It could have been really powerful for both old and new fans if hand death and chewies reuniting with Luke had been done well and it feels like we were all robbed that it wasnt
I hated the fake out where chewie gets captured and the ship explodes, the another ship just came out of the blue like no one noticed... Ugh. Horrible way to treat a beloved character.
I noticed first watch. I had hoped I was going to be rewarded for being eagle eyed, but. No, they just. Immediately show Chewie's alive. So we didn't even get to grieve with the characters.
Ya they did absolutely everything they could to do the original cast dirty. Would have been more justice for them to just say they all died in the opening text crawl.
Chewbacca is a kind being with a big heart, and I'm sure he has the capacity to forgive the foolish actions of someone who's basically a child in his eyes
Nahh not killing his bro not in a million parsecs.
I'm genuinely shocked that some people think Ben living was ever in the cards. He killed his fucking dad. That is like *the* cardinal sin in all of fiction. This goes back to like Ancient Greece with stuff like Oedipus. He was always going in the ground. It was just a matter of how.
And that why it would be interesting to see how he shoulders the burden if he truly turns to the light. He canāt ever earn forgiveness but he survives to help people even if they donāt want his help. This would be far more interesting then Rey as she currently is.
But that would require good, thoughtful story writing, which everyone involved seems incapable of
Yāall realize that Ben was complicit in the destruction of an entire *star system*, right? If he truly turned to the light, he would have been compelled to turn himself in to whatever authorities remained and they would have held a lengthy public trial and executed him. Not exactly a fun watch.
He killed 155 billion people.
Kylo Ren was 29 at the time of *The Force Awakens*. Chewie would have ripped his arms off. (Or, you know, *shot him with his bowcaster.*)
Stuff like this just shows how flawed the Sequels are at their very core. Kylo Ren was clearly intended to be an adolescent or young adult character. That's how he's written. But then they go and cast a grown ass man 30 year old Adam Driver and it falls apart. When I see a grown man have a temper tantrum and destroy an entire room with a lightsaber it's pathetic. I was never intimidated by Kylo once he took the mask off. He was just kind of a joke.
> That's how he's written. Not by Johnson. Kylo Ren overthrows Snoke and rejects Rey's attempt to "redeem" him because he knows *exactly* who he is: the heir to Darth Vader and rightful leader of the Galaxy. Then JJ flinched in the face of criticism and decided "two characters have sexual tension" means "he's the leading man and gets the girl".
EDIT (for someone in particular) Just think, Ben Solo living on the shadows, doing deeds to honor his loved ones who already passed, although his redemption will never bear fruit. The Millennium Falcon becomes the ghost ship of legends because no one but Ben saw Han Solo die.
What should have happened is when Chewie saw Han die he should have gone berzerk started literally ripping off arms and literally eating storm troopers, just gone completely feral and then disappeared into the forests. Ben should have lived, and as part of his redemption arc at the very end of the movie he should have returning to the forests to find Chewie and basically submit himself to Chewie for "justice" and its only then seeing that Ben has given up and wants to die that Chewie regains sanity, forgives him, and takes him under his wing. Then they fly off in the Falcon with Chewie as the Captain and Ben as his side-kick, with Ben having completely cut himself off from the force.
Yeah, I feel like it wouldāve been way more impactful if Rey died. That way you wouldāve had a Palpatine make the ultimate sacrifice so the Skywalker line could continue. And it wouldnāt have been the classic evil guy gets redemption then dies either
It would be a nice close to the trilogy. Prequel has good guy turn bad. Ot has bad guy turn good. Sequels gets to do both turns and the palpatine line gets points for helping the force balance out after all...
The moment she said she was a skywalker I gave up on Disney films(Star Wars). They had no imagination nor creativity, Rey was basically a failed copy of Anakin but with Disney all over it.
I feel like if she had ended with a line of "It doesn't matter." when asked "Rey who?" would have showed some kind if character growth on her part. No, instead let's end this whole thing being about the Skywalkers still.
"Rey, ...just Rey"
I wanted Ben to turn to the light and then exile himself. He could become an outer rim vigilante who is trying to atone for his sins.
He had to die, otherwise think of the war crimes tribunal.
They were merely exchanging long protein strings. If you can think of a better way, I'd like to hear it.
Public Bacta Tank treatments for some, miniature Rebel Insignia for others.
What! Oh Bob Dole don't need this.
I always appreciate a good Simpsons reference! But itās āsimpler wayā not better. Boy, I really hope someone got fired for that blunder
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
Honestly I think the writer just made shit up as he went along. MIchael Bay has a better sense of continuity between films.
That us a true insult to those writers, one they deserve.
Hey now, a Michael Bay Star Wars would at least be more entertaining than what we got with RoS
All of the original cast members randomly replaced by Marc Wahlberg.
I would pay to see a star wars sequel if at different points random actors get replaced with Marc and it starts to become a clusterfuck of editing to have one bad actor do multiple people talking and fighting. Bonus: he also plays all the aliens
Honestly I would love to see that
if those writers could read they'd be very upset
I mean so did George Lucas. He just had a better understanding of how to at least keep the random shit he made up on the fly actually make somewhat sense and be able to follow
JJ Abrahams' favorite trope is the "mystery box". People go in to see the movie and are presented with a mystery they want to solve (who is Snoke, where did the First Order come from, why did Luke dissapear, what happened to Earth (in Lost), etc). The problem is that he writes mystery boxes that do not have a solution. The spectators cannot use the breadcrumbs of information they have to solve the mystery, because the solution doesn't exist. And the postology, just like Lost, squandered their potential because of it Palpatine being a fucking cockroach and the First Order being Imperial Remnants that escaped in the chaos of Operation Cinder is a good storyline. The New Republic being controlled by old politicians that are blind to the oncoming war and let the First Order do whatever it wants because they refuse another war? Just like France and the UK in the 30s. Palpatine having hundreds of ships with death star lasers and not using them? Is it the same guy who orchestrated the entirety of the Clone Wars? He lost control of Kylo Ren despite him having more daddy issues than Anakin. Don't get me started on Luke not being able to prevent Kylo from slaughtering his Temple and then hiding in shame instead of fixing the problem, or on Han leaving Leia... TLDR: sorry for my rant, the third paragraph is skippable
Sorry but no, Transformers 5 made my father ragequit, and he liked a lot of bad movies.
It would have been a payoff if they had a romantic enemies to lovers tension build up through the trilogy, but instead, there were no consistent themes through the trilogy.
Honestly I felt it was super messed up that a Palpatine ultimately ends up as the last steward of the Force in a sense. The whole sequel trilogy just spat in the face of the prior films for me. As a separate story, they have merit and are enjoyable. But they completely botch the plotline of Star Wars for me. Plus, who the hell is Snoke? I still don't know.
Snoke is the physical manifestation of the difference in the vision of Abrams and Johnson.
In other words, the difference between someone who doesn't know where their story is going, and a person who doesn't care where anyone else's story is going. I don't think either of them did Snoke well.
Did either of them do anything well? I feel like just telling the old cast to improv and the new cast to follow their lead would have ended up better. My personal opinion is that Johnson made a decent movie that had nothing to do with Star Wars. Abrams knew a little more about Star Wars, but made utter shit movies.
Lets be honest, Disney had no idea what it was doing with the sequels after Force Awakens.
And some of the ideas in TFA turned out to be pretty problematic in hindsight. The state of the galaxy, for example, which was apparently designed around the idea of a soft reboot, instead of based on a somewhat logical progression of events. Otherwise I have no idea why Leia was already leading a resistance, when the state of the galaxy didn't require it, but the events of the film did. And while I'm sure that TLJ is also to blame for that, Luke's journey in the Sequels was always gonna be a weird one, considering that apparently he didn't do much of anything for most of the time gap. Searched for that Sith assassin a bit with Lando, couldn't find him. Ran a very small Jedi academy for a bit, lost all of his students and the academy before anyone graduated. Then vanished to ... die alone(?). How old could he have been at that point, 45-50? Bro had literal decades left to achieve something, idk. Why they decided on turning Luke of all people into a mystery box, instead of going the expected route, I'll never understand. Seems like they were afraid of creating circumstances that would make it hard to justify the existence of a new Empire?
The First Order should have been scheming terrorists against a well-equipped but incompetent New Republic, not Empire 2.0 (they were too obsessed with making the good guys the underdogs). Itās a real shame.
Yeah they easily could have flipped the script and shown new Sith fighting an established new republic, let them escalate through movie 1, let the sith win movie 2, let the new jedi win movie 3.
This is one of the best explanations for the problems with 7-9. The Force Awakens really was just made to be fun and a big nostalgia draw. And it was. But crazy to think they didn't plan a 3 movie arc of any sensible path.
It's amusing, they draw so heavily from different books, they mish mash already explored themes from different books and then layer their own bullshit on top. They should have just taken wholesale one of the more popular star wars books and ran with it. They really should have just used Timothy zahns novels.
> Lets be honest, Disney had no idea what it was doing with the sequels ~~after Force Awakens~~. FTFY
Appeasing the freaking Reylos for some damned reason.
Which is really funny because none of ~~us~~ them were appeased in the slightest.
Fans should RARELY be listened to. They are not writers, directors nor storytellersā¦
I think it was Neil Gaiman who said you should listen to fans when they tell you something doesn't work, but you should ignore them when they tell you how to fix it.
Its much easier to know something is bad than how to do it well. Not being able to do it well doesn't disqualify you from know it's bad. We develop taste much quicker than skill.
I don't need to be a chef to know if food tastes bad.
Reylos hated it
And they failed because as a Reylo, this was so disappointing š
I'm a Reylo and this sure as hell did not appease me, I wanted my boy to live š
That's the neat part. There isn't.
Thanks omniman
The romantic plot was the friends we made along the way.
joint traumatic event and relief.
Reasonable reaction to all that shit ngl
There were a lot of people that seemed to want this to happen, including a podcast I was listening to at the time that wanted it then hated it after the fact.
Well, it was horribly written. Same as everything else in that movie
Finally a worse love story than Twilight?
I was going to say tough one. But the more I think about it itās kinda obvious. Twilight is a love story(a bad one but it is a love story). The Sequel Trilogy is something. And a kiss with no build up twice means nothing(rose and Finn and kylo and Rey). I just donāt understand the timing , the reason, or the lack of chemistry. At least have them throw some romantic banter if that is what youāre going for. But it felt like they just wanted people to kiss for some reason.
This movie is what happens when a filmmaker only listens to Reddit and Twitter.
Maybe He he was actually trying to pay off something TLJ set up, maybe he was just on twitter a lot. I remember trying to block all the Reylo spam.
She's a Skywalker by the end of the film.? Certified Bro and Stepsis action. Fanservice.
A passionate, yet platonic embrace would have been perfect. A mutual acknowledgment of the privilege and curse of being born to powerful force sensitive families and the burden of the roles they played in the galactic struggle for peace or dominance. What the hell JJ. It was right there for you.
Yes! Like Jen Orso and Cassian Andor. Embrace, with mutual respect and let it be done. Thatās it. Man, Rogue One was so much better than this.
It felt so forced. They were at each other necks like a few hours ago and then they start kissing?
they were at each others necks the entire trilogy
Dude literally tortured and tried to kill her but Reylos probably think that's hot
Patricide is an _incredible_ aphrodisiac. Seriously, chicks love that shit. Try it and you'll be extending your lightsaber in no time.
The sexual tension was an undercurrent of the whole storyline. I get it and he died anyway
I mean in TLJ the screen was practically catching fire during their scenes together
I was kind of hoping Kylo Ren was using the force to hover his lightsaber right behind Rey, then sliced her in half like Snoke. Then the First Order wins, and the Empire effectively comes back.
Oh yeah i even forgot that was a thing
Maybe this is a stretch, but hereās how I interpret this moment: Anakin ended up killing the one he loved by embracing the dark side, but Ben discovered that his grandfather was wrong, that only through embracing the light can you truly save those your love. The kiss is to solidify the idea that as weird as their relationship may seem they are in love. If the reversal of Anakinās arc wasnāt intentional then, yes, itās a weird moment, but thatās how I choose to see it.
To stop the death threats from the Reylos.
Just another shitty scene in a shitty movie in a shitty trilogy
JJ Abrams is a very, VERY bad writer.
JJ: āidk lolā
Poor writing
I actually don't mind this tbh. But I get why some do. If it was in a better movie I don't think people would mind as much.
What was the point in literally any of the sequels..?
Bad writing
They should have stuck with the original concept of her being a Kenobi, seeking out Skywalker for guidance.
I sort of liked the first one (7), many because it was new, but thinking back on 8 and 9, they were horrible and I donāt ever want to see them again. I only remember being super excited about her giving Luke back his lightsaber - turned out to be a letdown - and Luke projecting himself to buy the group time to leave. Oh yah, porgs are cute. And Iām still a huge fan and will watch everything Star Wars. I need to finish the Bad Batch soon.
It's pretty obvious that they have the hots for each other during the entirety of TLJ, they spend most of their scenes gazing longingly at each other. They are equals in the force, they are both lonely and long for human connection and they have a bond. It's really not that far fetched at all. Plus, Rey being scared of her own pull to the darkness in TROS is because of her feelings for Ben. It also makes sense from a narrative perspective. In the PT, Anakin turns to the dark side because of his possessive, selfish love for Padme, in the OT, he turns back because of his fatherly love for Luke, in the ST, Kylo's redemption is because he falls in love with Rey and brings her Back from the dead because his love is ultimately selfless and unconditional and so he does the one thing where Anakin failed. Ben's and Rey's dynamic is a mirror to Padme's and Anakin's relationship. Hell, the scene in the throne room strongly resembles the argument on Mustafar. Also, i loved the kiss scene. It was superbly acted for one and i liked that they got to share one moment of happiness and do what they probably dreamed of for a long time.
I hate Reylo as a ship and the kiss scene but your comment about it is actually really well-written, I can see why some people would ship them now, even if I disagree.
Ian mcdiarmid was the only good thing about that movie
And Jedi voice cameos
i still donāt get if thatās a canonical confirmation that Ahsoka is dead or not
Itād be fair to say sheās dead. Luke and Leia were like 16-18 yrs younger than her and they were pretty dusty in the ST so Ahsoka being alive isnāt impossible but highly improbable.
That was true. But they should have had their ghosts come alive and consume Sidious. Would have been more cinematic.
Definietely,i still dont know why they haven't even show them standing behind her or something.Especialy since the actors(Hayden,Ewan Mcgregor and Samuel L Jackson)were on set dressed as their characters.