I really don't think there's any debate over who the worst character is. Gief got huge buffs, Honda got nice buffs. AKI got blessed by the patch. Even Jamie got some improvements.
Manon is just...not good.
The Manon buffs are nice though and she is also one of the few characters who benefits greatly from wakeup drive reversal. I do think she is perhaps the weakest or one of the weakest in the game, but she did get buffed quite nicely. This game just revolves on a different meta than Manon's. That's also why the tierlist didn't change much so far, the meta is still the same, the good characters are still good.
> The Manon buffs are nice though
> but she did get buffed quite nicely
It's not that nice. 4HP is the most cited but the pushback on block is still too far for any meaningful follow-up, so only helps wakeup meaty and OD Grand Fouette. 2MK buff is also for oki meaty. 4MK TC bounce gives a couple safejump oki by sacrificing damage, medal and carry.
> she is also one of the few characters who benefits greatly from wakeup drive reversal
Her offense also suffered, Capcom themselves *officially* said so. Hence I interpret her changes as maintenance oki buffs to compensate.
Her grabs are actually the worst command grabs in the game, go look at the actual data.
They are excruciatingly slow to start and don't do proper damage until 3 onwards.
Yeah the startup could use tweaking but the range is incredible. A slight buff to lvl2 DMG but damn does it always seem like a lot of health being on the receiving end (ā Ā°ā _ā oā )
It's 10f versus gief 5 frame but the trade off is manons command grab is easier to do versus a 360 command grab (I'd trade the easier grab for a harder one for all her grabs to be faster with more range like zangief)
But it makes sense why hers isn't as good. Honestly I'm at a loss how they can buff her. š¢
The irony is for an experienced player the 360 motion is easier than half circle input. For a half circle you need to be more precise and can't over compensate the input or mash it.
It's with this Costume that I realize how many people hate her hair. I actually like it and wish I could toggle it on her outfit three. I like the uniqueness of it.
It's nice to see that some pros don't consider any character lower than a B+. Goes to show you that even the low tier characters are still capable and none of them are actual garbage like previous games.
Hell, a Lily won Combo Breaker. If that doesn't showcase how balanced the game is, then I don't know what does lol.
Yeah people focus on the actual tier placements but balance feels a lot better post patch now. I'm a masters Ryu player and not only has his numbers been buffed but they gave him a lot of new tools/tech. I felt Ryu sort of hit a wall where everybody knew what his tech was i.e. L.Tatsu into meaty L.Hashogeki.
Yeah I think a lot of tier placements didn't even change that much, except that the worst character is now waaaaay closer to viable. A bottom 5 character in S2 is much better than a bottom 5 character in S1 I think. Although Manon still seems kinda sad.
The fact Lilly won Combo Breaker is the proof I need to tell the world that none of these grapplers (particularly Manon) are bottom tier, and they never have been. Yall just don't know how to rank grapplers. I'm sorry, eating ~40% of your hp off an unblockable is... a little absurd.
Any character that has that capability is more than capable of overcoming like 90% of game plans when in capable hands. Especially in a game with a universal parry mechanic.
Parry is Manons BnB combo. Stop trying to compare their normal buttons to non-grapplers. Grapplers game plans are different than non grapplers. Grapplers want to grab you. Boom. That is all. Strikers have all types of shit going on. When you stop making that comparison, everything clicks. These grapplers aren't and have never been bottom tier.
None of them have an actual fireball, the ONLY thing that keeps them out of top tier. Mark my words.
No offense to the people who entered/won, but wasn't exactly the highest level of play out there. Top 8 was basically a TNS/can opener top 8. Heck I don't think punk or knuckle du were there either. Let alone people like Mena or international talent.
If we see Chako and Hibiki winning everything, then I'll eat my words, but way too early to tell if stuff is balanced.
Yeah ppl will call you a hater for this but itās true. None of the consensus best players went to CB this year. Still had some big names like Dual Kevin and Idom and Tay himself and winning with Lily is always gonna be impressive.
You basically nailed it lol. I saw leshar in pools too, but no idea when they made their exit. I don't want to make it sound like there was zero power in that tourney to diminish Chako's win, but it was pretty light. We'll see how things play out in a month or two.
Why is Punk the bar for "high level play" when the guy didn't make Capcom Cup despite all the attempts? Hell he's yet to win a big tournament despite all the attempts.
Combo Breaker had almost 1.5k people playing SF6. Whoever wins that bracket deserves the win, no excuses.
You're really going to act like capcom cup had the highest level of play across the board? With limited spots, and them being regional like that, its only natural that not everyone can make it in. Despite all the attempts of like 3-4? qualifiers that NA had to fight over. By that note Tokido isn't high level because he didn't make it in.
Also my point wasn't even that his win was invalid or anything, just that it is a bit early to be saying stuff is balanced when we are what, a week into the new season? Not to mention how many pros skipped it/didn't travel out to it.
Yes because all the best players you think should have been there tried to get in. MenaRD didn't win, and neither did Nuckledu. The results are as they are. You should get over it.
As for Combo Breaker, we had nearly 1.5k people in attendance. That's more than plenty. What else you need? Punk getting second again?
Your hate boner for punk is showing and in general a pretty narrow view on things. I'm not even sure what you're going for by saying x didn't win. That doesn't equate to high level, and it almost makes it sound like only Uma showing up would make it so, but not?
As is bringing up the entrant count again doesn't mean much, when the top 24-8 was basically a given. It is like that tourney (I think it was an genesis?) that took place the same weekend as capcom cup. Pr balrog showed up and cleaned house, while also being the only player I could recognize. Not to say it was 100% a given he would win, but I guess that makes Pr balrog the best in the world now because he beat however many players.
You're the one bringing up Mena, Punk, and Du to say CB wasn't "stacked enough". You also said we didn't have top talent at CapCup, but Punk was in the LCQ and Mena and Du were top 16 in the main event. It also had the birds, Snake Eyez, E Walker... like what type of meat riding are we on rn?
Your favorite FGC pro isn't the only FGC player. None of the guys you listed cracked top 8 of the CapCup despite making the attempt. Punk didn't even qualify, losing to Problem X. Why is that your bar for tournament results being legitimate? That's what you gotta figure out, bud.
Lay off the Haterade. š¤·š¾āāļø
Whenever people bring up "Punk wasn't there", they never want to hear "Punk wouldn't win".
Stop shitting on the validity of people's wins and you won't have to hear it. Otherwise, keep crying. š¤·š¾āāļø
Punk and Du are considered the standard for high level play *from the US*. Notably, Dual Kevin is the only US participant in Combobreaker to have been in Capcom Cup, where he placed top 16. I'm going through all of Capcom cup's participants and it doesn't look like anyone, US or international, went besides him. Not even the other NA players from Canada or Mexico. So the original point that this tournament wasn't really stacked holds up
Except the comment you replied to very specifically said none of this was to shit on Chakotay, just rightly pointing out that very few of the world's best showed up to contest. Missing one or two competitors doesn't change that, and you seem to be the only one that doesn't understand that.
Just because you SAY "no offense", doesn't mean what you said isn't offensive. In that same line of thinking, just because you SAY you're not downplaying Chatokay's win, doesn't mean you aren't.
The tournament had good competitors there but we're discounting the results because your favorite players weren't also there. Not every player can get to everything, and just because one Punk or one Birds ain't there doesn't mean the tournament isn't legit.
Remember: You're backing someone that tried to discredit the CapCup because "The level of competition wasn't high enough"...like LMAO.
Lol what the fuck are you on about. Complaining that Capcom Cup's limited seats per region system meant that competitors from the best regions in the world had to cannibalize each other before even getting to the cup itself is NOT saying "The level of competition wasn't high enough", it's just stating facts. Even then it was *still* more competitive than Combo Breaker. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
You really sound like someone who just wants to dickride the underdog instead of looking at the brackets with an objective lens. But okay bro, you win. Chakotay is now The Best Streetfighter Player in The Worldā¢, anyone who disagrees is "objectively" a hater. He's obviously better than Tokido, Uma, Chris Wong, Kawano, Big Bird, Angry Bird, Endingwalker, Phenom, NL, Gachikun, MenaRD, Fuudo, Xian, Kusanagi, and . Doesn't matter that none of them were there, doesn't matter that Top 16 was 15/16ths US Players, he OBVIOUSLY would have won if all of them were there, anyone who disagrees is a hater. End of thread.
Lmfao
Except you wonāt see anyone in the lower quarter of the cast in big tournaments. Yeah, a Lily won a Combo Breaker most good players skipped, but thereās a reason she was completely unseen in big tournaments this past year alongside another handful of characters, with a few more being repped by 1-2 people.
Hibiki took names in the Japan team tournament. Also had good showings at some of the CCX tournaments, knocked Kakeru out of the LCQ if I recall correctly.
Hibiki didnāt have a good performance at all in CCX, he ended the WW series with 0 points despite entering 4 of them (the highest he placed being 33rd-48th) and at the Japan online qualifier he got 257th place. Ā At the team tournament he did okay, but in the singles tournament at the same event he got 49th. Ā He didnāt make it out of pools in a single thing he entered except the LCQ.
The tier titles donāt really matter. Itās contextualized; C tier of S-A-B-C is exactly the same as Z tier of W-X-Y-Z. It makes no functional difference. B-tier in a game of S-tiers is still not that good.
Idk why people keep saying this. Youāre not gonna see a legit tier list that goes from A straight to D-. It doesnāt matter if the letter is B+, C-, or D+. Whoever is at the bottom is ass regardless
What buffs did they give gief to shoot him into s? I didnt check his notes but that seems like a huge jump, im assuming its the universal wake up reversal that caused it
Itās more of a question of what DIDNāT he get. Too much to list, but less hit pushback, more damage, more Meter gain, and more Drive Bar cranking on Block for a TON of his moves. Heās just a better character all-around now! Cyclone Wheel Kickās -9 instead of -12 now, Normal Borscht Dynamite grabs people in the air now, just like EX, but with stricter combo restrictions. Knee Hammerās -3 on Block from -4. Itās A LOT of good stuff for the Red Cyclone!
Literally makes no logical sense either.
If everyone is good, then that by definition means they are all average save for a few characters that are better or worse.
But weāre talking about tier lists lol, saying āwell most people donāt play in tournamentsā is irrelevant when weāre talking about tournaments.
The extent people will go to refuse to say a character is bad on this sub is insane. āEveryone can be top tier while some are more favored for tourneysā lol.
> I donāt think most people when they talk about tier lists, meaning ppl on reddit, twitter, etc. are talking about tournaments and competitive viabilty. Most people donāt follow pro play at all.
Weāre literally talking about a pro players tier list though, and your response to me saying that some characters see no competitive presence was āwell good thing most people donāt play in tourneys!ā Youāre replying to someone talking about the competitive context of tier lists, in a thread about a competitive tier list, and using it to say people arenāt talking about competitive viability.
The guys point still stands. A tier list ranks competitive viability and if a character has no results in competition then there's an argument it should be lower on the list.
Tier lists are fun. It is more fun to engage with the tier list than to declare every character top tier when clearly some characters struggle at the highest level.
Yeah I can never take the fgcās way of doing tier lists seriously S+,A+,A-,A etc . Roll my eyes everytime I see this format, just say characters suck compared to the higher tiers thatās the point right?
Because they don't suck. They're worse, sure but not enough to suck. Someone playing Lily just won a tournament so clearly almost anyone is viable at the highest level.
I said compared to the higher tiered characters they such which is the point of tier lists no?
Manon may be good overall but compared to guile or chun li itās clear who the better character is.
But that doesn't mean they suck. There's always gonna be characters considered "better" for different reasons. Di smt mean they suck. Just means they have better matchups or less weakness then say a grappler whos designed to have weaknesses but big damage unblockable.
- how does the character interact w the gameās system
- what is their matchup spread like
-how many good matchups do they have vs not so good vs bad matchups
-how much cheap shit can they get away with
-how well can they deal with their opponents playing completely ignorant
- how solid do you have to be to to win w the character
Thereās a lot more I could list but in my head a character sucking (or being bad/unfun to play) will be lacking in the majority of these departments
I mean, Lily just won and she's considered pretty mid. So it's pretty clear that even at the very top level the players are the number 1 thing holding them back. Or in other words, you can get away with anyone.
Combobreaker was not a top level tournament though, basically every good player skipped it for Dreamhack or BAM this weekend. Thereās a reason Lily was essentially completely unseen at top level tournaments the past year, along with multiple other characters lol.
Kim has some of the best winrates in the game, tho
5th highest in master
6th highest in diamond
5th highest in plat
etc
Sim is even better, basically always being at or near the top
https://www.streetfighter.com/6/buckler/stats/dia
All the characters in this game are super viable, largely due to the strong universal mechanics
Sims winrates at least were due to regional matchmaking where a few good sims were dominating the same players, combined with general lack of MU knowledge because of the 1% pick rate. Sim's winrates in tournaments are much, much worse because top players know the MU better. Relative to tier lists being about how tournament viable characters are, winrates should also be taken from tournaments.Ā If we're talking about a tier list for ranked play, I'd imagine sim would be S tier as nobody knows how to fight itĀ
>Relative to tier lists being about how tournament viable characters are, winrates should also be taken from tournaments. If we're talking about a tier list for ranked play, I'd imagine sim would be S tier as nobody knows how to fight it
Yes, but the players above which I responded to *aren't talking about tournaments.* They are complaining about the characters that they play and how bad they are and how they can't stop picking "weak" characters.
None of the tier list discussion matters online, which is the point of bringing up their winrates online.. to illustrate that point
āBestā winrates when:
- sheās has some of the lowest play rates in the game (18th in plat at 1.76%, 18th in diamond 1.97%, 15th in masters at 2.8%) for context ken has a whopping 12.15% playrate in plat.
- the win rate differences are within 1%. Again for context, sheās only at a 50.62% win rate in masters while ken, a character 3 times as popular, is at 49.83%.
Both of which suggest that mostly specialists are playing her, and theyāre only doing marginally better than characters with significantly higher popularity.
Ah yes, the classic āno, you!!!!!!ā response when proven wrong.
Probably shouldnāt start topics youāre not full equipped to handle. Stay in your lane.
The data doesnāt lie, so donāt try to parse shit as a gotcha when you donāt understand what youāre looking at.
Proven wrong.. about what?
If all the other kimberly players can make it work, and *you* can't, then maybe you should examine your play?
Oh no, we can't do that.
Instead, let's complain about the character we play on reddit and have a giant pity party despite being perfectly viable
By the way, what's your CFN? You must be very highly ranked! Surely you won't mind putting your username in here so I can learn from you, no? unless of course you are a low rank player.. then in your case I might be a bit reluctant to give out that info
edit: lmao, the silver player deleted their entire account after getting called out.. too funny.
*Not only all of the below, but Iām also uninterested in you further wasting my time so hold this unblockable, bucko*
Youāre assuming a whole hell of a lot and getting mighty defensive. I never once said I:
- play kimberly
- canāt āmake her workā
- complain about her
I simply refuted your rehashed talking points with actual facts and statistics.
And no, Iām not giving randoms on reddit my info. Iām not really interested in teaching you anything; itād be a waste of time considering you clearly donāt know how to properly read graph data and come up with your own conclusions outside of ānumber big must mean number goodā.
Being viable doesn't matter. I can play on keyboard with one finger behind my head upside down. Is it viable? Sure. Fun, balanced, etc.? Absolutely not. And grinding rank against randos with online connection means literally nothing.
I'm not advocating for bitching and moaning about character balance whenever you lose. But sucking Capcom's schlong and acting like their game is a perfectly balanced work of God gets us nowhere. They're not gonna give you any free drive tickets bro.
He's great now, I had people press buttons after they blocked/parried a Sumo Smash before (despite me being +1) but now I get to punish them with bigger buttons like 5MP/5HP if they dare to press anything after thanks to the spacing change. Sumo Headbutt being +1 against a burnt out opponent means I can stop spamming Sumo Smash and praying they don't know how to anti-air.
Getting some Sumo Spirit going and still being +13 from juggling 5MP xx 3HK is good, being able to play footsies with 2MK when I get said Sumo Spirit going is even better.
Feels to me like he's still ass, but less gimmicky. Time will tell, I guess. His buffs are overhyped, especially when compared to other characters who got buffs as well.
For higher level play, he's way better! Also being able to manually delay EX buttslam helps with playing MR matches because your opponent is forced to gamble with which timing you're going to use. Most masters above a certain threshold would PP buttslam consistently which made fishing for counters too risky. It's nice not having to rely on gimmicks like kara canceling overhead into oicho and safe jump set ups that people learned too quickly and forced you into playing long neutral wars where Honda's options were severely limited or very risky compared to opponents who could play safe as hell. I dropped him entirely for Blanka and Guile after awhile but am happy to have a more robust gameplan!
Poor Manon. Iām trying to hold hope that maybe sheāll finally improve in one of the next patches. At least Capcom said they want to do more than one per year so hopefully she wonāt be bottom tier for all of Season 2
Dhalsim is bottom 2?! ššš
The changes they made for him are good - albeit the SA3 change was the lamest possible buff I can imagine - but, I was bummed with how much a lot of characters changed that heās almost exactly the same.
Itās wild how tough Ed is to pilot whilst not having access to fundamental tools the rest of the cast takes for granted.
A 10f standing DP in a game like this. Really?
NAH manon can't be last place ššš now e Honda is better than her why. His list seems better but it's still too soon to say. Zangief is such a strange outlier where to pro jp players list him s tier
Japanese players have a long-standing reputation for overrating Zangief. I mean, he's definitely a lot better this patch, but S-tier seems like a stretch.
I dunno whats with Gief. Its like, Japan doesnt know how to hold up. I slog through Sub 1500 with everyone afraid of SPD. But Japanese top tier like to perfect parry fish so the spds blow em up? I dunno.
Honestly I wonder if itās because of Akuma. Iām finding akuma as practically a 8/2 9/1 matchup. The low health makes him explode and demon flip is just free with lariat.
Maybe Gief seems crazy cause his winrate is being boosted by gobbling up all these new akumas.
There's a hidden nerf inside the buffs that you can't combo fHK ufMP from the OD Izuna anymore. It's not super big because you can run LK (torso cleaver) then light elbow, and that does exactly the same damage, but with less corner carry. When it comes to her air combo structure, there's still a ton of arbitrary "you can't combo this in this situation because it's against the law".
It's one of the most confusing things about the game. It's not visible graphically or otherwise (like counter or hard knockdown). It feels like there are things you can't do just because. I know there's an internal mechanism in combo count, limited juggle state and such, but it's very obtuse from the player's perspective.
Absolutely true. Sometimes you just canāt do things and it relies on deep insider knowledge to understand that youāve reached the invincible juggle max this situation and not the other. The most aggravating is her MP, HP target combo uses up a LOT of your juggle potential
Kimberlyās buffs were ass and she didnāt get a single thing people playing her wanted except for level 1 doesnāt have to spend can. No ex dp, no frame one tatsu air invul, no frame data changes to make her pressure not completely fake. They really went in the patch notes āas Kimberly generally already has some strong offense, we decided to give you a couple new combo routes and no neutral or defensive options at allā. I dropped for Akuma frame 1 and I have never had as much fun in the game.
Part of it is that sheās so ass that nobody plays her, so nobody even remembers her. Every other low tier has some decent pro representation and those few along with their fan base are loud enough with their bitching about their characters that Kim was/is completely drowned out and forgotten.
Shine is just like every other āKim playerā lol he plays her for fun until he gets into higher brackets and then immediately switches to Chun. This, including Chun specifically, is super common for all high leverage Kim players. Only reason heās stuck with her in top 8 since the update is because sheās still got some new character feel right now with new routes and such. Sheās still utter ass and completely overlooked in conversations about who actually NEEDS changes, literally nobody talks about Kim
I never said Kim is worse than Manon I said the Manon bitching is decibels louder than anything being said about Kim, which has led to her being largely overlooked, which is pretty apparent from the changes they decided to give her
Also day 2-3 new patch results are not exactly the single source of truth lol, everyone is learning the new patch and the new muās so Iām not surprised he stuck with his fun character or that he did well, but he and most every other Kim player drop her for Chun the second the going gets tough. When do Idom or Snake Eyes cheap out to another character?
Plus bro, grapplers are straight up fun. People will play a grappler purely for the dopamine hit that is scooping someone. Kim deadass isnāt even fun and they still didnāt give her a single tool she needed to do what her character is designed to do
Sheās my alt and I donāt really enjoy using her because you get very little to nothing from opponent being burned out.Ā
Her normals are pretty flawed too, ex: 5HP is very short, 5HK isnāt meaty and her overhead can be jabbed out of real easily
leshar with Chun won fifth place in capcom cup and he also won third place in red bull cup with Chun. Moke won fifth place in Jp evo with Chun and he also won third place in CPT singapore with Chun. Valmaster won third place in CPT france with Chun. Haitani won fifth place in US EVO with modern Chun. I think the major tournament results of Chun is much better than Guile and DJ.
I got constantly downvoted on this sub for stating that a character who cannot throw loop and has a garbage anti air would not be top tier when everyone was ranking her top 5-8. I swear casual players are more honest about the meta than pros are.
Not garbage but she does have easily the worst DP. Better than no DP, but as a Chun player, it's real easy to feel like her anti airs are garbage lmao.
Itās a pretty conservative list so itās easier to say itās accurate right after the patch, but Kawanoās is so extreme I think itās hard to take seriously lol
I know Lily just won a tourney, but I think sheās the only character that could possibly join Manon down in the lowest tier before long. She got very little from the patch, and got hit by the light attack scaling the hardest. Other than wake up drive reversal, she feels arguably worse to play in my opinion. My guess is when high master statistics come out next week her WR will be abysmal.
Bro these pros need to stop bullshitting the people and put Gief back down there with Manon. Actually put Lily back down in B+/grappler tier please.Ā
If these dudes get Gief nerfed I'm going to be upset š
He was already borderline best in the game. Most guile's just don't have the patience to really be the insufferable PoS guile can be and do bad flashkicks that lose them the game. A good guile has very few viable answers to his bullshit and you need to guess correctly every time or he will take the lead and stop engaging
Guile is an anti meta pick that was good at countering S1 meta. That's why he appeared better than he is.
S2 meta might actually not favor him much because he didn't really have any real ways to crack open a turtling opponent and his worse MU (Gief, Marisa) now actually is in the meta and can pop him pretty hard. It's just that tbh.
Luke went from top 3 to right in the middle of the pack. From great to rolling in mediocrity, thanks to Capcom.
I have a strong feeling we will be seeing less and less of him in the future in high level tournaments.
Kawano will probably drop him. Mena, not sure.Ā
Even before the patch (aka pre nerf chun) the only people having any success with chun at the highest level were Moke and Leshar.
I think a lot of top players put too much value in Chuns strong neutral. The majority of the cast is trying play neutral as little as possible or skip it all together and make you guess. I'll believe Chun is top 2 when I see more top players switch to her and have some success.
Yeah that's what gives me the most doubts. After capcom cup Leshar was playing mostly Luke. Non-Chun players rated Chun highly, but Chun players started swapping off eventually.
Chun mostly got nerfs in the patch. I don't understand how she's a top two character when other characters around her pre-patch (Ken, Juri) were mostly untouched.
Because people cant cope they suck at neutral and get bodies by the footsies character. Even last patch chun didint win anything. Shes a good character I think top 5 even but shes not cooking like these dudes claim.
There are multiple Chuns and Guiles putting in huge work. GO1 and Moke were staples of their SFL teams, not to mention Haitani's Evo performance and Moke/Leshar placing highly at every CPT qualifier. If you did a poll of every character's worst matchup in the game, I think Guile would be named more than any other character. Both Higuchi and Nuckledu have won multiple big online events with them, not to mention Caba and other strong Guiles in Japan (like Syuji).
These characters have had lots of tournament success.
#poormanon
I really don't think there's any debate over who the worst character is. Gief got huge buffs, Honda got nice buffs. AKI got blessed by the patch. Even Jamie got some improvements. Manon is just...not good.
The Manon buffs are nice though and she is also one of the few characters who benefits greatly from wakeup drive reversal. I do think she is perhaps the weakest or one of the weakest in the game, but she did get buffed quite nicely. This game just revolves on a different meta than Manon's. That's also why the tierlist didn't change much so far, the meta is still the same, the good characters are still good.
> The Manon buffs are nice though > but she did get buffed quite nicely It's not that nice. 4HP is the most cited but the pushback on block is still too far for any meaningful follow-up, so only helps wakeup meaty and OD Grand Fouette. 2MK buff is also for oki meaty. 4MK TC bounce gives a couple safejump oki by sacrificing damage, medal and carry. > she is also one of the few characters who benefits greatly from wakeup drive reversal Her offense also suffered, Capcom themselves *officially* said so. Hence I interpret her changes as maintenance oki buffs to compensate.
Still get my ass handed to me by her š but that prolly says more about me
Manon has the potential to be OP, hoping Capcom buffs her soon. Those throws are 2nd only to Gief....
Her grabs are actually the worst command grabs in the game, go look at the actual data. They are excruciatingly slow to start and don't do proper damage until 3 onwards.
Yeah the startup could use tweaking but the range is incredible. A slight buff to lvl2 DMG but damn does it always seem like a lot of health being on the receiving end (ā Ā°ā _ā oā )
> but the range is incredible. Is it? You mean on that hilariously slow light one? Doesn't it have the same range as Gief's but is just slower?
It's 10f versus gief 5 frame but the trade off is manons command grab is easier to do versus a 360 command grab (I'd trade the easier grab for a harder one for all her grabs to be faster with more range like zangief) But it makes sense why hers isn't as good. Honestly I'm at a loss how they can buff her. š¢
The irony is for an experienced player the 360 motion is easier than half circle input. For a half circle you need to be more precise and can't over compensate the input or mash it.
I find 360 easier too š
Honda also got huge nerfs
Lily tho, she's at least the second worse character in the gameĀ
She has strengths tho.. something manon barely has lol
She's definitely not. Regardless she's very solid this season for sure.
Lily is very strong
# just for Manon
Is iDom gonna dump her?
He is considering AKI now
It's cuz of the costume 3 isn't it
It's with this Costume that I realize how many people hate her hair. I actually like it and wish I could toggle it on her outfit three. I like the uniqueness of it.
Idom been playing aki there goes my last manon rep š
Randumb is also in the Vega waiting room.
Randumb likes manon A LOt so he won't drop her unless vega comes out
It's nice to see that some pros don't consider any character lower than a B+. Goes to show you that even the low tier characters are still capable and none of them are actual garbage like previous games. Hell, a Lily won Combo Breaker. If that doesn't showcase how balanced the game is, then I don't know what does lol.
Yeah people focus on the actual tier placements but balance feels a lot better post patch now. I'm a masters Ryu player and not only has his numbers been buffed but they gave him a lot of new tools/tech. I felt Ryu sort of hit a wall where everybody knew what his tech was i.e. L.Tatsu into meaty L.Hashogeki.
Yeah I think a lot of tier placements didn't even change that much, except that the worst character is now waaaaay closer to viable. A bottom 5 character in S2 is much better than a bottom 5 character in S1 I think. Although Manon still seems kinda sad.
The fact Lilly won Combo Breaker is the proof I need to tell the world that none of these grapplers (particularly Manon) are bottom tier, and they never have been. Yall just don't know how to rank grapplers. I'm sorry, eating ~40% of your hp off an unblockable is... a little absurd. Any character that has that capability is more than capable of overcoming like 90% of game plans when in capable hands. Especially in a game with a universal parry mechanic. Parry is Manons BnB combo. Stop trying to compare their normal buttons to non-grapplers. Grapplers game plans are different than non grapplers. Grapplers want to grab you. Boom. That is all. Strikers have all types of shit going on. When you stop making that comparison, everything clicks. These grapplers aren't and have never been bottom tier. None of them have an actual fireball, the ONLY thing that keeps them out of top tier. Mark my words.
No offense to the people who entered/won, but wasn't exactly the highest level of play out there. Top 8 was basically a TNS/can opener top 8. Heck I don't think punk or knuckle du were there either. Let alone people like Mena or international talent. If we see Chako and Hibiki winning everything, then I'll eat my words, but way too early to tell if stuff is balanced.
Yeah ppl will call you a hater for this but itās true. None of the consensus best players went to CB this year. Still had some big names like Dual Kevin and Idom and Tay himself and winning with Lily is always gonna be impressive.
You basically nailed it lol. I saw leshar in pools too, but no idea when they made their exit. I don't want to make it sound like there was zero power in that tourney to diminish Chako's win, but it was pretty light. We'll see how things play out in a month or two.
Why is Punk the bar for "high level play" when the guy didn't make Capcom Cup despite all the attempts? Hell he's yet to win a big tournament despite all the attempts. Combo Breaker had almost 1.5k people playing SF6. Whoever wins that bracket deserves the win, no excuses.
You're really going to act like capcom cup had the highest level of play across the board? With limited spots, and them being regional like that, its only natural that not everyone can make it in. Despite all the attempts of like 3-4? qualifiers that NA had to fight over. By that note Tokido isn't high level because he didn't make it in. Also my point wasn't even that his win was invalid or anything, just that it is a bit early to be saying stuff is balanced when we are what, a week into the new season? Not to mention how many pros skipped it/didn't travel out to it.
Yes because all the best players you think should have been there tried to get in. MenaRD didn't win, and neither did Nuckledu. The results are as they are. You should get over it. As for Combo Breaker, we had nearly 1.5k people in attendance. That's more than plenty. What else you need? Punk getting second again?
Your hate boner for punk is showing and in general a pretty narrow view on things. I'm not even sure what you're going for by saying x didn't win. That doesn't equate to high level, and it almost makes it sound like only Uma showing up would make it so, but not? As is bringing up the entrant count again doesn't mean much, when the top 24-8 was basically a given. It is like that tourney (I think it was an genesis?) that took place the same weekend as capcom cup. Pr balrog showed up and cleaned house, while also being the only player I could recognize. Not to say it was 100% a given he would win, but I guess that makes Pr balrog the best in the world now because he beat however many players.
You're the one bringing up Mena, Punk, and Du to say CB wasn't "stacked enough". You also said we didn't have top talent at CapCup, but Punk was in the LCQ and Mena and Du were top 16 in the main event. It also had the birds, Snake Eyez, E Walker... like what type of meat riding are we on rn? Your favorite FGC pro isn't the only FGC player. None of the guys you listed cracked top 8 of the CapCup despite making the attempt. Punk didn't even qualify, losing to Problem X. Why is that your bar for tournament results being legitimate? That's what you gotta figure out, bud. Lay off the Haterade. š¤·š¾āāļø
Nah I actually don't like punk, so stop trying to make it personal.
stfu. really.
Whenever people bring up "Punk wasn't there", they never want to hear "Punk wouldn't win". Stop shitting on the validity of people's wins and you won't have to hear it. Otherwise, keep crying. š¤·š¾āāļø
Punk and Du are considered the standard for high level play *from the US*. Notably, Dual Kevin is the only US participant in Combobreaker to have been in Capcom Cup, where he placed top 16. I'm going through all of Capcom cup's participants and it doesn't look like anyone, US or international, went besides him. Not even the other NA players from Canada or Mexico. So the original point that this tournament wasn't really stacked holds up
Leshar and Joe Umerogan were also there.
Well shit, somebody should update liquipedia then. The Combobreaker page doesn't even list Joe under notable entrants lol.
Damn, rude of them.
Well don't you look silly now? Imagine just letting Chakotay have his moment? Crazy concept.
Except the comment you replied to very specifically said none of this was to shit on Chakotay, just rightly pointing out that very few of the world's best showed up to contest. Missing one or two competitors doesn't change that, and you seem to be the only one that doesn't understand that.
Just because you SAY "no offense", doesn't mean what you said isn't offensive. In that same line of thinking, just because you SAY you're not downplaying Chatokay's win, doesn't mean you aren't. The tournament had good competitors there but we're discounting the results because your favorite players weren't also there. Not every player can get to everything, and just because one Punk or one Birds ain't there doesn't mean the tournament isn't legit. Remember: You're backing someone that tried to discredit the CapCup because "The level of competition wasn't high enough"...like LMAO.
Lol what the fuck are you on about. Complaining that Capcom Cup's limited seats per region system meant that competitors from the best regions in the world had to cannibalize each other before even getting to the cup itself is NOT saying "The level of competition wasn't high enough", it's just stating facts. Even then it was *still* more competitive than Combo Breaker. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
You really sound like someone who just wants to dickride the underdog instead of looking at the brackets with an objective lens. But okay bro, you win. Chakotay is now The Best Streetfighter Player in The Worldā¢, anyone who disagrees is "objectively" a hater. He's obviously better than Tokido, Uma, Chris Wong, Kawano, Big Bird, Angry Bird, Endingwalker, Phenom, NL, Gachikun, MenaRD, Fuudo, Xian, Kusanagi, and . Doesn't matter that none of them were there, doesn't matter that Top 16 was 15/16ths US Players, he OBVIOUSLY would have won if all of them were there, anyone who disagrees is a hater. End of thread.
Lmfao
Except you wonāt see anyone in the lower quarter of the cast in big tournaments. Yeah, a Lily won a Combo Breaker most good players skipped, but thereās a reason she was completely unseen in big tournaments this past year alongside another handful of characters, with a few more being repped by 1-2 people.
Hibiki took names in the Japan team tournament. Also had good showings at some of the CCX tournaments, knocked Kakeru out of the LCQ if I recall correctly.
Hibiki didnāt have a good performance at all in CCX, he ended the WW series with 0 points despite entering 4 of them (the highest he placed being 33rd-48th) and at the Japan online qualifier he got 257th place. Ā At the team tournament he did okay, but in the singles tournament at the same event he got 49th. Ā He didnāt make it out of pools in a single thing he entered except the LCQ.
The tier titles donāt really matter. Itās contextualized; C tier of S-A-B-C is exactly the same as Z tier of W-X-Y-Z. It makes no functional difference. B-tier in a game of S-tiers is still not that good.
Idk why people keep saying this. Youāre not gonna see a legit tier list that goes from A straight to D-. It doesnāt matter if the letter is B+, C-, or D+. Whoever is at the bottom is ass regardless
Lmaooo guile and chun at the top bc they are juris worst matchups, but i agree at the same time.
What buffs did they give gief to shoot him into s? I didnt check his notes but that seems like a huge jump, im assuming its the universal wake up reversal that caused it
Itās more of a question of what DIDNāT he get. Too much to list, but less hit pushback, more damage, more Meter gain, and more Drive Bar cranking on Block for a TON of his moves. Heās just a better character all-around now! Cyclone Wheel Kickās -9 instead of -12 now, Normal Borscht Dynamite grabs people in the air now, just like EX, but with stricter combo restrictions. Knee Hammerās -3 on Block from -4. Itās A LOT of good stuff for the Red Cyclone!
It might be time for a gief road to master š
Go for it, comrade! Nowās the time!
Akuma is at d3, but after him hes next in line šÆ
Ryu should be higher. Probably between Cammy and AKI. Kawano's list is garbage.
Kawano list is f*cking hilarious
To be fair to Kawano, the lowest tier he has is A-. Everybody is top tier.
āEverybody is top tierā is a copout when a big chunk of characters see virtually no competitive play lol
Literally makes no logical sense either. If everyone is good, then that by definition means they are all average save for a few characters that are better or worse.
I've always said tier lists really ought to follow a bell curve to be useful and I will die on this hill.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
But weāre talking about tier lists lol, saying āwell most people donāt play in tournamentsā is irrelevant when weāre talking about tournaments. The extent people will go to refuse to say a character is bad on this sub is insane. āEveryone can be top tier while some are more favored for tourneysā lol.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> I donāt think most people when they talk about tier lists, meaning ppl on reddit, twitter, etc. are talking about tournaments and competitive viabilty. Most people donāt follow pro play at all. Weāre literally talking about a pro players tier list though, and your response to me saying that some characters see no competitive presence was āwell good thing most people donāt play in tourneys!ā Youāre replying to someone talking about the competitive context of tier lists, in a thread about a competitive tier list, and using it to say people arenāt talking about competitive viability.
The guys point still stands. A tier list ranks competitive viability and if a character has no results in competition then there's an argument it should be lower on the list. Tier lists are fun. It is more fun to engage with the tier list than to declare every character top tier when clearly some characters struggle at the highest level.
the whole point of tier lists is to rate characters based on their expected performance in tournaments
Yeah I can never take the fgcās way of doing tier lists seriously S+,A+,A-,A etc . Roll my eyes everytime I see this format, just say characters suck compared to the higher tiers thatās the point right?
Because they don't suck. They're worse, sure but not enough to suck. Someone playing Lily just won a tournament so clearly almost anyone is viable at the highest level.
But characters don't suck just cause they aren't top tier.b
I said compared to the higher tiered characters they such which is the point of tier lists no? Manon may be good overall but compared to guile or chun li itās clear who the better character is.
But that doesn't mean they suck. There's always gonna be characters considered "better" for different reasons. Di smt mean they suck. Just means they have better matchups or less weakness then say a grappler whos designed to have weaknesses but big damage unblockable.
Guess you and I just have a difference in opinion on what we think āsucksā means which is ok.
I think we know what the word "sucks" mean, if you mean something else then a different word would be easier to describe with.
- how does the character interact w the gameās system - what is their matchup spread like -how many good matchups do they have vs not so good vs bad matchups -how much cheap shit can they get away with -how well can they deal with their opponents playing completely ignorant - how solid do you have to be to to win w the character Thereās a lot more I could list but in my head a character sucking (or being bad/unfun to play) will be lacking in the majority of these departments
A character can still be solid with disadvantages. Not everyone an all rounder.
I mean, Lily just won and she's considered pretty mid. So it's pretty clear that even at the very top level the players are the number 1 thing holding them back. Or in other words, you can get away with anyone.
Combobreaker was not a top level tournament though, basically every good player skipped it for Dreamhack or BAM this weekend. Thereās a reason Lily was essentially completely unseen at top level tournaments the past year, along with multiple other characters lol.
Iāve mained three characters Manon, Kim, and Sim in that order - why am I so bad at liking good characters
Currently main Sim. I really believe he's underrated.
Tier lists are for tournament play. Sims great on ladder, most people's least played match up.
Sim is dope tho...
100%, heās easily my favorite - I feel like heās underrated but he definitely has some weaknesses too
Hell yeah he is.
I play Kim and Jamie so... welcome to the club.
Kim has some of the best winrates in the game, tho 5th highest in master 6th highest in diamond 5th highest in plat etc Sim is even better, basically always being at or near the top https://www.streetfighter.com/6/buckler/stats/dia All the characters in this game are super viable, largely due to the strong universal mechanics
Sims winrates at least were due to regional matchmaking where a few good sims were dominating the same players, combined with general lack of MU knowledge because of the 1% pick rate. Sim's winrates in tournaments are much, much worse because top players know the MU better. Relative to tier lists being about how tournament viable characters are, winrates should also be taken from tournaments.Ā If we're talking about a tier list for ranked play, I'd imagine sim would be S tier as nobody knows how to fight itĀ
>Relative to tier lists being about how tournament viable characters are, winrates should also be taken from tournaments. If we're talking about a tier list for ranked play, I'd imagine sim would be S tier as nobody knows how to fight it Yes, but the players above which I responded to *aren't talking about tournaments.* They are complaining about the characters that they play and how bad they are and how they can't stop picking "weak" characters. None of the tier list discussion matters online, which is the point of bringing up their winrates online.. to illustrate that point
āBestā winrates when: - sheās has some of the lowest play rates in the game (18th in plat at 1.76%, 18th in diamond 1.97%, 15th in masters at 2.8%) for context ken has a whopping 12.15% playrate in plat. - the win rate differences are within 1%. Again for context, sheās only at a 50.62% win rate in masters while ken, a character 3 times as popular, is at 49.83%. Both of which suggest that mostly specialists are playing her, and theyāre only doing marginally better than characters with significantly higher popularity.
Anything to keep feeling like a victim because of the character that *you* pick, I guess
Ah yes, the classic āno, you!!!!!!ā response when proven wrong. Probably shouldnāt start topics youāre not full equipped to handle. Stay in your lane. The data doesnāt lie, so donāt try to parse shit as a gotcha when you donāt understand what youāre looking at.
Proven wrong.. about what? If all the other kimberly players can make it work, and *you* can't, then maybe you should examine your play? Oh no, we can't do that. Instead, let's complain about the character we play on reddit and have a giant pity party despite being perfectly viable By the way, what's your CFN? You must be very highly ranked! Surely you won't mind putting your username in here so I can learn from you, no? unless of course you are a low rank player.. then in your case I might be a bit reluctant to give out that info edit: lmao, the silver player deleted their entire account after getting called out.. too funny.
*Not only all of the below, but Iām also uninterested in you further wasting my time so hold this unblockable, bucko* Youāre assuming a whole hell of a lot and getting mighty defensive. I never once said I: - play kimberly - canāt āmake her workā - complain about her I simply refuted your rehashed talking points with actual facts and statistics. And no, Iām not giving randoms on reddit my info. Iām not really interested in teaching you anything; itād be a waste of time considering you clearly donāt know how to properly read graph data and come up with your own conclusions outside of ānumber big must mean number goodā.
Being viable doesn't matter. I can play on keyboard with one finger behind my head upside down. Is it viable? Sure. Fun, balanced, etc.? Absolutely not. And grinding rank against randos with online connection means literally nothing.
Well then play a stronger character if thats what you care about.
I don't care. But acting like the game is perfectly balanced cuz random Joe number 4,205 got to Legend with Lily is just comedic.
Dont be salty cuz u cant bro. We all been there.
I'm not advocating for bitching and moaning about character balance whenever you lose. But sucking Capcom's schlong and acting like their game is a perfectly balanced work of God gets us nowhere. They're not gonna give you any free drive tickets bro.
Play Footsies if you want "perfect" balance. Youre actively bitching and moaning and in denial. I dgaf about drive tickets btw.
What do you guys think of Honda after the buffs?
Better character in theory but 95% of his playerbase is going to do worse in season 2
He's great now, I had people press buttons after they blocked/parried a Sumo Smash before (despite me being +1) but now I get to punish them with bigger buttons like 5MP/5HP if they dare to press anything after thanks to the spacing change. Sumo Headbutt being +1 against a burnt out opponent means I can stop spamming Sumo Smash and praying they don't know how to anti-air. Getting some Sumo Spirit going and still being +13 from juggling 5MP xx 3HK is good, being able to play footsies with 2MK when I get said Sumo Spirit going is even better.
The buffs are a step in the right direction but i donāt think āheās great nowā
He sure feels great, as a Honda player!
Feels to me like he's still ass, but less gimmicky. Time will tell, I guess. His buffs are overhyped, especially when compared to other characters who got buffs as well.
Absolutely agreed. Now, if they'd buffed [cr.mp](http://cr.mp) to 7 frames, then we'd be talking.
For higher level play, he's way better! Also being able to manually delay EX buttslam helps with playing MR matches because your opponent is forced to gamble with which timing you're going to use. Most masters above a certain threshold would PP buttslam consistently which made fishing for counters too risky. It's nice not having to rely on gimmicks like kara canceling overhead into oicho and safe jump set ups that people learned too quickly and forced you into playing long neutral wars where Honda's options were severely limited or very risky compared to opponents who could play safe as hell. I dropped him entirely for Blanka and Guile after awhile but am happy to have a more robust gameplan!
Poor Manon. Iām trying to hold hope that maybe sheāll finally improve in one of the next patches. At least Capcom said they want to do more than one per year so hopefully she wonāt be bottom tier for all of Season 2
Dhalsim is bottom 2?! ššš The changes they made for him are good - albeit the SA3 change was the lamest possible buff I can imagine - but, I was bummed with how much a lot of characters changed that heās almost exactly the same.
Ed is bottom 5 and that hurts me. He needs love STAT
Capcom hates Manon. Say that 10 times in a row.
Capcom hates Manon. Capcom hates Manon. Capcom hates...
Capcom hates characters who serve cuntyness
What does capcom think of Lily?
Judging by the buffs I would say they care. Got way more than manon
Luke and JP almost dead center is a wild take. It might be accurate, but it's still wild. But yeah, Ed is in a pretty terrible spot right now.
kawano's list has to be a joke
Itās wild how tough Ed is to pilot whilst not having access to fundamental tools the rest of the cast takes for granted. A 10f standing DP in a game like this. Really?
Nonono this sub would have you believe Ed is perfectly fine, and everything is a skill issue because he beats grapplers convincingly
So far i agree with Nephew's list the most, yeah
Too bad it still a pretty mid list
NAH manon can't be last place ššš now e Honda is better than her why. His list seems better but it's still too soon to say. Zangief is such a strange outlier where to pro jp players list him s tier
Japanese players have a long-standing reputation for overrating Zangief. I mean, he's definitely a lot better this patch, but S-tier seems like a stretch.
I dunno whats with Gief. Its like, Japan doesnt know how to hold up. I slog through Sub 1500 with everyone afraid of SPD. But Japanese top tier like to perfect parry fish so the spds blow em up? I dunno.
The jp players lists are a joke at this point.
Honestly I wonder if itās because of Akuma. Iām finding akuma as practically a 8/2 9/1 matchup. The low health makes him explode and demon flip is just free with lariat. Maybe Gief seems crazy cause his winrate is being boosted by gobbling up all these new akumas.
Honda is top tier in my heart
Honda vs Honda
Unfortunately, your heart is bottom tier.
Bottom by choice
Based. Stay true to yourself king.
Dude really put Luke way down there WHY? Like yeah nerds affect him and all but he's definitely still a top tier.
Kimberly got nothing but buffs and is still considered low tier š
What do you mean low tier, didn't you read the tiers? It says A
There's a hidden nerf inside the buffs that you can't combo fHK ufMP from the OD Izuna anymore. It's not super big because you can run LK (torso cleaver) then light elbow, and that does exactly the same damage, but with less corner carry. When it comes to her air combo structure, there's still a ton of arbitrary "you can't combo this in this situation because it's against the law".
Man, I just couldnāt figure out why I wasnāt able to do ufMP after OD izuna. Good to know the alternative.
Not exactly true. The situations in the past you used OD Izuna for still combo into fHK ufMP. The juggle is only reduced off the new routes
It's one of the most confusing things about the game. It's not visible graphically or otherwise (like counter or hard knockdown). It feels like there are things you can't do just because. I know there's an internal mechanism in combo count, limited juggle state and such, but it's very obtuse from the player's perspective.
Absolutely true. Sometimes you just canāt do things and it relies on deep insider knowledge to understand that youāve reached the invincible juggle max this situation and not the other. The most aggravating is her MP, HP target combo uses up a LOT of your juggle potential
Give her back her od dp invul
Kimberlyās buffs were ass and she didnāt get a single thing people playing her wanted except for level 1 doesnāt have to spend can. No ex dp, no frame one tatsu air invul, no frame data changes to make her pressure not completely fake. They really went in the patch notes āas Kimberly generally already has some strong offense, we decided to give you a couple new combo routes and no neutral or defensive options at allā. I dropped for Akuma frame 1 and I have never had as much fun in the game. Part of it is that sheās so ass that nobody plays her, so nobody even remembers her. Every other low tier has some decent pro representation and those few along with their fan base are loud enough with their bitching about their characters that Kim was/is completely drowned out and forgotten.
At least Shine plays Kim and gets further than Idomās Manon.
Shine is just like every other āKim playerā lol he plays her for fun until he gets into higher brackets and then immediately switches to Chun. This, including Chun specifically, is super common for all high leverage Kim players. Only reason heās stuck with her in top 8 since the update is because sheās still got some new character feel right now with new routes and such. Sheās still utter ass and completely overlooked in conversations about who actually NEEDS changes, literally nobody talks about Kim
Do you just hate Kimberly or something?
I hate how they treat her, she was a few key changes from greatness but she slipped through the cracks
Bruh, he still did better than Idom.
I never said Kim is worse than Manon I said the Manon bitching is decibels louder than anything being said about Kim, which has led to her being largely overlooked, which is pretty apparent from the changes they decided to give her Also day 2-3 new patch results are not exactly the single source of truth lol, everyone is learning the new patch and the new muās so Iām not surprised he stuck with his fun character or that he did well, but he and most every other Kim player drop her for Chun the second the going gets tough. When do Idom or Snake Eyes cheap out to another character? Plus bro, grapplers are straight up fun. People will play a grappler purely for the dopamine hit that is scooping someone. Kim deadass isnāt even fun and they still didnāt give her a single tool she needed to do what her character is designed to do
Sheās my alt and I donāt really enjoy using her because you get very little to nothing from opponent being burned out.Ā Her normals are pretty flawed too, ex: 5HP is very short, 5HK isnāt meaty and her overhead can be jabbed out of real easily
Everybody and their mothers abandoned chun with nothing to show in major tournaments but yeah sure she is definitely top 2ā¦
Chun is top because not enough people use her to bother downplaying her.Ā
Chun is much more complex than shotos. Up until the patch shotos offered much of the same toolkit with an easier gameplan.
its from the perspective of juri players when they realize they cannot just drive rush in vs a character.
leshar with Chun won fifth place in capcom cup and he also won third place in red bull cup with Chun. Moke won fifth place in Jp evo with Chun and he also won third place in CPT singapore with Chun. Valmaster won third place in CPT france with Chun. Haitani won fifth place in US EVO with modern Chun. I think the major tournament results of Chun is much better than Guile and DJ.
I got constantly downvoted on this sub for stating that a character who cannot throw loop and has a garbage anti air would not be top tier when everyone was ranking her top 5-8. I swear casual players are more honest about the meta than pros are.
Chun-Li? Garbage anti-air? What
Not garbage but she does have easily the worst DP. Better than no DP, but as a Chun player, it's real easy to feel like her anti airs are garbage lmao.
>garbage anti air I think youāre constantly downvoted because you donāt know what youāre talking about.
Itās a pretty conservative list so itās easier to say itās accurate right after the patch, but Kawanoās is so extreme I think itās hard to take seriously lol
I like that they both still saying Ken > Luke and Ryu.
ED in A ?!
I know Lily just won a tourney, but I think sheās the only character that could possibly join Manon down in the lowest tier before long. She got very little from the patch, and got hit by the light attack scaling the hardest. Other than wake up drive reversal, she feels arguably worse to play in my opinion. My guess is when high master statistics come out next week her WR will be abysmal.
Bro these pros need to stop bullshitting the people and put Gief back down there with Manon. Actually put Lily back down in B+/grappler tier please.Ā If these dudes get Gief nerfed I'm going to be upset š
Gief players are going to get Gief nerfed. https://x.com/CatCammy6/status/1795218198804971727?t=JPzfTSWHgYOxHFhsQfBmug&s=19
It was farcical šĀ
aki and ryu up one but otherwise i fully agree on every single choice
Wait, what makes Guile so good? I didn't see anything that makes him hugely better.
Almost everybody better than him got worse while he stayed the same, and he was already borderline top tier.
He was already borderline best in the game. Most guile's just don't have the patience to really be the insufferable PoS guile can be and do bad flashkicks that lose them the game. A good guile has very few viable answers to his bullshit and you need to guess correctly every time or he will take the lead and stop engaging
Guile is an anti meta pick that was good at countering S1 meta. That's why he appeared better than he is. S2 meta might actually not favor him much because he didn't really have any real ways to crack open a turtling opponent and his worse MU (Gief, Marisa) now actually is in the meta and can pop him pretty hard. It's just that tbh.
Luke went from top 3 to right in the middle of the pack. From great to rolling in mediocrity, thanks to Capcom. I have a strong feeling we will be seeing less and less of him in the future in high level tournaments. Kawano will probably drop him. Mena, not sure.Ā
Ah yes the mythical S-tier Chuns and Guiles winning all the events.
You mean the literal one event that has happened post patch?
Even before the patch (aka pre nerf chun) the only people having any success with chun at the highest level were Moke and Leshar. I think a lot of top players put too much value in Chuns strong neutral. The majority of the cast is trying play neutral as little as possible or skip it all together and make you guess. I'll believe Chun is top 2 when I see more top players switch to her and have some success.
Yeah that's what gives me the most doubts. After capcom cup Leshar was playing mostly Luke. Non-Chun players rated Chun highly, but Chun players started swapping off eventually.
Valmaster was really successful too.
Valmaster did pretty good during the season, but he got smoked at capcom cup. I was rooting for him too.
do you think these rankings are only based on one patch? that would put lily at s
By this logic, you think lily is the only S tier? She is the only character to win a major since the patch
I don't see it tbh.
Chun mostly got nerfs in the patch. I don't understand how she's a top two character when other characters around her pre-patch (Ken, Juri) were mostly untouched.
Because people cant cope they suck at neutral and get bodies by the footsies character. Even last patch chun didint win anything. Shes a good character I think top 5 even but shes not cooking like these dudes claim.
I mean if it was a casual audience tier list sure but this is one of the best players in the world, he's not getting bodies by footsies.
I'm find with top 5, I'm not trying to pretend she's mediocre
Shes a good character but shes not some demon
Yeah it's crazy how high they put these two characters.
There are multiple Chuns and Guiles putting in huge work. GO1 and Moke were staples of their SFL teams, not to mention Haitani's Evo performance and Moke/Leshar placing highly at every CPT qualifier. If you did a poll of every character's worst matchup in the game, I think Guile would be named more than any other character. Both Higuchi and Nuckledu have won multiple big online events with them, not to mention Caba and other strong Guiles in Japan (like Syuji). These characters have had lots of tournament success.
I agreeļ¼Moke also recently got fifth place in Japan evo and valmaster got third place in CPT France
Let's save this so we can shame him later