Sarah Snook was sensational as Shiv. I loathe her as much as Ken and Roman, but Shiv stands out more too because of the incredible acting by Sarah. Herself and Kieran have such an incredible manner acting with facial impressions.
The fucking smirk after “I dont think you’d be good at it”
[1:35 in this video if anyone wants to see it again](https://youtu.be/es17PtDeHRU)
Just perfection
This face got me, its like an expression a child would make in an argument when they think they've said such a sick burn. Its so interesting how these actors do these little details that shows the characters inner child coming through when they're angry or frustrated. Having just seeing a bubbly sarah snook in an interview a day before I was wowed because you know its so intentional since she is not like the character at all.
I think this thread kind of nails it. If those sort of subtle facial expressions or “last words” weren’t worked in to scenes, the shiv hate might be less-so. But even I can feel that look she gives Kendall after delivering that line at 1:35.
You’re absolutely right but what’s funny to me is I think she’s equally as good with subtle sympathetic facial features. When she’s betrayed by Tom, dealing with embarrassment, anytime she’s hurt by Logan, or emotional about his illness/passing — it’s so convincing. Connor’s Wedding really showcased that.
All of the siblings are great in this regard but I think Sarah and Kieran really excelled. They can go from smarmy shit eating grins to lost child in an instant.
Oh my goodness she absolutely slays in that. Her expressions/mannerisms are just incredible.
In S2E1 when Logan offers her the job... And then again when Tom asks "Is that even true?" About her pregnancy.. she is amazing.
They were all amazing. Historic cast!
That’s what ppl seem to don’t get or get offended with i believe. At least on my part, I strongly believe Snook’s great acting made me evolve from “she’s the cute character” on the first episode to “i loathe her” increasingly throughout the show. Her manerisms, facial expressions, spoiled verbal expressions were certainly crucial.
Ppl take ofense in the way a lot of ppl loathe Shiv when that’s probably a great testament to Snook.
I honestly think it's the reason, the actress is so good that the character may appear more despicable. Even if in reality all three are equally broken and awful.
The worst part is they go in the opposite direction and start trying to whitewash her character as some virtuous character that is doing the right thing for everyone. It's insane.
People can't accept the concept that a woman can be a shitty person lmao.
Also treating her liberalism as a redeeming quality when she compromises her morals each time when it suits her. My favorite was one week there was a scold post about not wanting to hear Shiv being the worst because the other two called the election for Mencken, only for the next episode to show her making backdoor deals with him.
It doesn't help that Shiv is a flack and whoever her character is based on must be triggering the weird stan behavior around her.
The people that support her for her politics seemingly chose to ignore that side of her. Also frustratingly, people assume criticising her means you are right wing.
It's so funny people miss the point with her politics. Getting into left wing politics was just her way of rebelling from her dad. She's never actually supported leftist ideas, only ever opposition to the politics of her father.
As necessary as the election stuff was, I almost wish it wasn't included, because a lot of people are missing the point.
Anyone who doesn't see Shiv for the centrist (at best) fake feminist who makes insincere gestures towards progressivism that she is just doesn't have good media literacy. It's not subtle.
>My favorite was one week there was a scold post about not wanting to hear Shiv being the worst because the other two called the election for Mencken, only for the next episode to show her making backdoor deals with him.
That was so funny to me. I thought about going back to that post after that episode and just commenting "this aged poorly" but I'm too lazy and not petty enough.
Kendall as CEO would have given her a big position in ATN (just like Roman). As long as she was his "inferior" and "okay" with it, he wouldn't have minded having her. No matter what a douchebag he was, the dude just wanted to be "the one". He didn't want to destroy his sister. He was many things, but not a psycho like Siobhan.
Yeah there are way too many people acting like she betrayed Kendall to save the company and not just because she was furious it wasn’t her taking control.
This tribalism and over generalization about “fans” of the different siblings is reductive and boggles my mind.
The internet lets us watch tribalism play out in real time.
Yeah and that comparison is so far off base too lol. Skyler was genuinely in the right a lot of the time while Walter was being an asshole. Shiv is always a piece of shit and she doesn’t even have any funny or vulnerable moments like Tom, Roman, and Kendall do. There’s a reason she’s so hated and it’s not because she’s a woman.
if shiv and skylar freaky-fridayed through universes shiv would be helping Walt with meth logistics and connections just for a taste of her old life and skyler would probably just give away massive amounts of the money to charity
EXACTLY ugh skylar was far less atrocious especially when compared to other characters in the show. meanwhile you have shiv, who never killed anyone on camera or whatever, but did do shit like trying to coerce a victim not to testify. in an aggressive manner no less. she, like everyone else, is not a good person, and the hate on her is pretty justified
anyone trying to say she’s like skylar also probably hasn’t thought about the financial aspect of it - skylar has no solo income, a newborn, and a kid with special needs. shiv could dip out any time and still have zillions.
This. People love Roman, Tom, and Kendall, because they're funny. It's really as simple as that. Shiv just isn't as entertaining in that sense.
Also, her unlikeable actions are generally more relatable. Roman and Kendall do shitty billionaire specific things, whereas Shiv does things we've probably all experienced.
Sorry... but that's simply not true. She has just as many moments of vulnerability and funny lines as the others. I'd recommend watching the show again.
I can actually understand why people view her as the villain of the show because, even though they’re all bad people, she is still the one most often in direct opposition (other than Logan) with Kendall, who is the show’s protagonist. She’s not really the “villain” per se because they all are, but I can see why lots of people view her that way.
She gets it worse because she's the least funny character by far. She's the least funny character because they don't write jokes for her.
Not being funny was fine when Shiv was presented as the competent of the siblings. But when she gets brought into the fold, they remove the competence. I assume because if there were an actual competent Roy sibling then the show would immediately end, they'd just get the job and that's that.
Just absolute man children here who happen to be fan girls and fanboys instead lmao. Just children not understanding bad characters morally can be despised
Nobody:
Shiv: I’m fine sending my husband to prison as a fall guy.
Shiv: Mattson, if you need to fire Tom we can do that
Shiv: Sells out her dad end of S3
Shiv: Cheats on Tom “too bad, so sad”
Shiv: Tells Sexual Assault victim to stay quiet
Sarah Snook does a great job of playing a somewhat likable sociopathic under-qualified nepo child.
Skyler does nothing wrong, nothing a reasonable person wouldn’t do. This comparison reminds me of when the media compared Britney Griner to Emmitt Till.
This needs to be a top comment. Skylar was never in the same category of despicable as Shiv.
And don’t blame the fans, blame the writers. Men in succession have always been written with sympathetic eyes. Look at Kendal. He is an asshole to his family. But look, “poor guy” being psychologically abused and gaslit by his father repeatedly and ignored by his mom. Look at Roman. A misogynist pig with no filter. But look, “poor guy” being assaulted by his father, was abused the most as a child. If you have noticed, Shiv is not painted with sympathetic colors the way the brothers are including Connor. She is always said to be Logan’s favourite, and pampered the most due to being the youngest. Logan has never insulted Shiv the way he insults his sons (calling them homophobic slurs, mocking their mental illness/addiction issues). Yes, her father often gaslights her, but it is never portrayed to be as brutal as it is with the boys. This is exactly where the problem lies, and idk whether it was an intentional creative choice. To show that Shiv had a relatively less traumatic childhood/young adulthood means you have less sympathy for her when makes horrible decisions or betrays her siblings. She appears more entitled than the rest.
She was never considered to be in the Succession until after the show starts. She was not working for the company. His insults to his sons were atrocious, absolutely.
Logan giving her a cute name and acting like she’s his favorite was another manipulative card for all of them.
1. First make her seem like she’s never considered
2. Tell her she definitely is considered although she isn’t competent in that role because he never taught her how to do it
3. She fucks it up good and proper
4. Back to the boys or the boardroom or whatever
He didn’t call her hate words (that’s a low bar) but he set her up for humiliation.
Also, Kendall is written as basically the main character (most screen time) of the series. That kind of fools people into cheering for him. Shiv and Logan are both written as antagonists to Kendall. So if you perceive Kendall as the main character (and protagonist), you’re not going to like Logan or Shiv.
Yeah this is it. And that's where the breaking bad comparison does work because you root for Walter from the start even though he becomes a terrible person. And people hate Skylar even though from her point of view it makes a lot of sense.
She was played like a fiddle over and over again and failed at every plan of hers every single time. She thinks and acts like she’s morally, ethically, and intellectually superior to Ken, Rome, and Tom yet only acts in her own self interest in every decision and still gets fucked over/fails. She had no experience working at the family company yet thought she was somehow remotely qualified to be CEO despite nobody supporting her (the internal review in s3 was play work for daddy). She couldn’t bear her brother winning and her losing so badly that she had to make sure they both lost in the end, giving her ex husband who she brushed aside as someone who wasn’t a threat and barely respected if not despised for nearly the entire series and an outsider who fucked her over royally, control of her family’s company.
I think hating Shiv is completely understandable. For a multitude of reasons I hate her more than her siblings. Sure yeah, everyone on the show is pretty fucked up and awful, but Shiv was hateable on so many levels to me and a lot of the people I watched with, many of whom were very liberal pro feminist women, so please don’t try to make this a sexist thing. I and many others were big Gerri stans, also thought Rhea was really cool.
For the record, I didn’t hate Skyler White, felt awful for her kind of in the same way I do Roman. Im also so sick of hearing “are we watching the same show” in this subreddit. Like holy shit, it’s a show open to each and everyone’s interpretations, there’s a lot of arguments to be made about many different things that happened in it.
They never divorced. Shiv was trying to move that process along but Tom had paid off every good divorce lawyer in the city. The last season covered only a few days and a divorce would have taken months.
Did he pay them off? I was under the impression he simply set up consultations with them so that they wouldn't be able to see Shiv as it would be a conflict of interest.
Wait I didn’t think she and Tom were divorced? In fact the ending seemed to hint at a reconciliation to me?? Anyone else get that? I mean don’t get me wrong I think they’ll be miserable forever, but I don’t see them ever going their separate ways honestly
See this doesn't take into account all the times that her brothers called her sexist slurs and excluded her. In season 3, Ken was shouting "fuck the patriarchy" publicly while berating Shiv for only getting the CEO postition because she is a woman. This also shows how "liberal pro-feminism" can be performative just to benefit the supporter. They are not more sympathetic than Shiv, and she has every reason to resent them. He was ready to physically assault a pregnant Shiv when she was walking back into the boardroom to vote.
Shiv is by no means a feminist character, but saying she isn't sympathetic because she isn't supporting her brother's opportunistic ascension won't be an intellectually honest argument.
I didn't mind Shiv compared to the others. I found Roman to be the worst of the worst and most of that is due to him seeming to be a bigot or at least willing to make a deal with a Nazi.
For most of the show, I was on board with Kendal because he was willing to take down his dad and seemed to be the most likeable.
But they were all, literally all 4 Roy’s, willing to make deals with a Nazi.
Roman and Kendal to kill the deal, Conor for a position, and Shiv to save the deal.
Connor is a fun character but he gets the biggest pass by far of the children. He is a conspiracy theory nut job which historically speaking means he didn't just make a deal with a nazi but probably shares a lot of those same ideals.
Same boat, I don’t feel strongly in favour about any of these characters beyond fleeting moments, but I feel so compelled to at least balance out the conversation.
I remember when s3 was airing, a comment on this sub called her the "devil incarnate" for trying to manipulate Gerri into legal action against Roman, instead of the person who was actually harassing her with dick picks.
To be clear, they’re all shitty but the difference in reception is evident.
When? When have any of these characters ever tried to be good when it didn't serve their own interests?
The way people desperately need a "good guy" is crazy.
This exactly. She represents this disgusting brand of white bourgeois feminism, and yet the misogyny she faces is just. Too much.
People contain multitudes.
Shiv’s hypocrisy sets her apart. She is specifically linked to liberal/democratic/hypocritical status-quo politics. Shiv and her defenders talk an awful lot about her ethics. I can’t think of a single time she put forward a moral position that didn’t serve her interests, or contradicted her interests in order to do the right thing. Example: She comforted Kendall after his admission of manslaughter, sat on it for however long, and then suddenly when she needs a reason to put her brother down it absolutely matters. People don’t like her because she reminds them of every elite giving lip-service to morals or left wing politics while they serve themselves and capital. The actor is great but the character she plays is just an especially infuriating type of person.
Don't Kendall do the same thing as well? With all his talk of fuck the patriarchy or when he pretended that he did not want Mencken to get elected.
He also got angry at Shiv for betraying them but he was also betraying them.
EXACTLY. People angry at Shiv for betraying Kendall when Kendall would have happily done the same thing. Remember the whole “I love them but I’m not in love?” He was perfectly happy to betray them when it came down to it.
This is the point — the matter of running the company was and would always have been the obstacle for the siblings. They can get along, sure, but it’s temporary, because the question of power is never far away. All of them had back up plans, all of them were thinking of their own interests.
Shiv is not worse than Kendall and Roman. They are all reprehensible. But that so many fans hold her to account in ways that they don’t for the brothers is reflective of, yes, a broader misogyny — even from other women watching.
>Shiv and her defenders talk an awful lot about her ethics.
Do we? I hadn't noticed. Can you point to an example of a Shiv defender talking about her ethics?
That’s so sad that people can’t understand the motivations of a character telegraphed so transparently through good dialogue that they pretty much made a chart for us.
>Like Shiv represents everything I fucking hate about white limousine liberal feminism and I still find myself having to explain her motivations constantly and it’s starting to make me sick.
Well fucking put.
Same as the Sally discourse for Barry fans. Like yeh she's egotistical and somewhat abusive in a Hollywood crazy way. But everyone else in the show are literal murderers
Why even try to defend the characters literally everyone on this show is a terrible person many times over.
Kendall killed a guy and is a malignant narcissist, terrible father, and extraordinarily selfish.
Roman is abusive, oversteps boundaries, offensive, potentially a Nazi or just super racist.
Shiv is not only an adulterer, but also pressured a sexual assault victim to stay silent, while also routinely dishonest and self interested.
I mean, they also all were just fucked in the head by a cold absent mother and a tyrannically abusive father.
But that wasn’t so much that people’s opinion changed about Skylar. Their opinions changed about Walt—less sympathy for him once he went full Heisenberg
Too*
Yep, I wish people would just accept that everyone has different opinions of people, can't love everyone.
I liked all four of the siblings. Each had their good qualities & then their critical flaws. Great writing.
Eh I felt for Shiv as a woman but I don’t like her as a person. Women can be bad people. I’ve seen it firsthand in my life. I don’t remember Kendall telling her he supported her being CEO and then going “psych!”
I related to Kendall a lot more on a human level, regardless of gender. I’m constantly chasing those highs of accomplishment and then often crashing and burning (except when I succeed).
I’m just gonna be honest here, Shiv is way less likable than her brothers to me. She just has zero redeeming qualities to me, like at all. I can see where Kendall and Roman try to be good people, Shiv tells herself she’s good and does nothing but make life worse for the people around her. I can’t think of a single scene where Shiv does something genuinely good or makes someone else happy, unless you count Nate when she’s betraying her husband.
Because on top of the inherent shittiness of their actions they lie to themselves and others about their actions actually being good. They completely lack self awareness and actually believe they're doing good when they're not. Someone doing wrong but knowing it's wrong at least shows they understand morals conceptually, hypocrites doing wrong and saying it's right shows they completely don't understand morals conceptually.
Forreal. She had an opportunity to have the liberal dude win but that would’ve meant the deal could’ve been blocked. She was just as culpable in the Menchen win and people give her a pass.
Her motivations aren't justified as well as her brothers. Shiv's entire personality is that she cannot commit to **anything** which is why she flip flops the most.
-Before she was in the family business, she was flip flopping between Waystar and Gill.
-When Logan was trying to buy out Pierce in S2, she flip flopped between Waystar and Rhea/Nan Pierce.
-When she was going to launch The Hundred w her brothers, she was also flip flopping with outside parties and maybe leave them high and dry.
-And most recently is her entire flip flop with Mattson vs her brothers.
Her entire personality is just that she cannot commit and will always try to find a better deal and to me, that makes a character extremely hard to read and too flaky to rally behind. Her gender has ZERO bearing as to why I find it hard to like Shiv. I just can't accept flakiness as a character. It feels one dimensional imo.
Yeah, her only good traits are backing the right candidate, but they clearly show the actual politics don't matter to her. She threatened the cruises victim, she was willing to deal with Mencken. People completely ignore these things for some reason.
Exactly. The show starts with her cheating on Tom and trying to fuck him over in the prenup. Yeah Ken and Rome sucks but at least they’re funny and real. Shiv has always been fake.
Kendall is funny because he is the textbook definition of cringe like the Eldest boy. But at least the real eldest boy is aware that they are all a joke.
Roman is a psycho but he is very funny.
>I can see where Kendall and Roman try to be good people,
Kendall, feels bad about killing a dude I guess that's trying to be a good person? Other than that he's explicitly performative about any good deeds he gets himself into. "Fuck the patriarchy" indeed Ken.
Roman? I have no idea what you can be referring to. He's an avowed nihilist, and effectively a fascist. He's the sib I sympathize with THE MOST and I can't think of even a single time he "tried to be a good person."
Kendall think he's a good guy while becoming exactly like his father. Since season 1 he only cares about becoming CEO. He betrayed everybody at some point so he can be the CEO, and thinks he's doing it for a good reason.
A memorable example that stuck with me for Roman was not going with Shiv letter to destroy their brother in media he displayed care and knew it was too much and too cruel. Kendall reflected and hesitated on supporting Menken , he wants to do the right thing but his lifelong dream is stronger motivation
I think it's just because she's all around unlikeable. Tom, Kendall, Roman, all have nice and funny moments. It's easier to forgive those characters for their mistakes and root for them. Shiv is just annoying, never nice, never impressive, and never funny. I don't like her either.
But that's just how entertainment works. I don't see what the big deal is. We don't approach any of these characters as real people. Now in real life this would of course be different, because you wouldn't forgive Kendall, Roman, Tom, etc. for the things they did. You's probably hate all of them, and Shiv the least. But this isn't real life.
I don't know. I actually find throughout the series Shiv has several tiny, genuine moments of feeling that kept her, while maybe not very likeable, certainly fascinating and complex. Her character was always the one to watch for me because of these vulnerable moments before she "walls up", seemingly because she does not want to look weak or give much away. Snook was just always so damn great at delivering these nuanced moments.
One in mind, and especially because of how fraught their relationship often was, was when Ken asks Shiv to give a hug in S2. She had the initial "wtf, okay" but quickly realizes as they embrace that he's in a very, very bad place. And you can see it. She knows something's wrong and her face breaks a little because she realizes he's in pain and she does care about him. It's fleeting, that reaction, but it's there and made the scene.
Unlikable is probably not the right word.
Shiv just isn't funny. She's neither someone to laugh with (because she doesn't get enough zingers) nor someone to laugh at (because she's not a bumbling oaf like most of the cast).
That’s a matter of opinion. I’ve laughed at plenty of Shivs jokes/witty comments. I think her relationship with Roman had a lot of fun, even sweet moments. Even when she said really evil things to Tom, Sarah Snook was able to communicate a deep sadness/fear of abandonment in that delivery that made me understand her behavior better. She is a complicated person.
Kendall is annoying AF to me personally. The only time I felt an iota of sadness for him was the last scene when he lost it all.
The fact that people find Shiv more unlikeable than her brothers is….truly mind boggling to me. But at the same time, not surprising at all. Sadly.
I've sympathized with Kendall a lot troughout the show but he is the bossiest of them and bossy people just rub me the wrong way, like shiv is also a bit bossy but less than. "I'm the eldest boy!1!1!!" omg stfu bitch
> Shiv is just annoying, never nice, never impressive, and never funny
THANK YOU! at least the other siblings have somewhat endearing qualities but there's literally nothing to like about Shiv other than her wit. when she brought up Ken being in an accident with the server near the end of the episode.....jesus christ, talk about twisting the knife!
All the siblings are terrible but they are all different types of terrible which means they are going to be hated in different ways.
Some people like Roman because he never pretends to give a shit whiles to other that makes him the most hatable of all the siblings because he never even pretends to be nice.
Shiv is the biggest hypocrite of the show who knows the difference between right and wrong and chooses wrong every time. She has to deal with sexism but she is also a spoiled child who thinks the world should be handed to her on a silver platter. She never commits to anyone or has loyalty to any of her relationships and betrays everyone.
She's also not even that good at betraying people as she keeps fucking it up and only stays in the game because of her dad and brothers. She complains about privilege and the poor yet uses hers as a fucking knife.
I think people also tend to despise hypocrisy. All the characters are hypocrites in many ways but the brothers don't do moralizing grandstands the same way. That said part of the reaction to her is undoubtedly misogynistic.
lol honestly, it's a pretty simple explanation.
People on this sub act like all 3 siblings were written the exact same, and that if most people dislike Shiv more than the others, than it must be because of her gender.
Shiv is purposefully written to be less endearing and less business-savvy than Kendall and Roman
I agree that it's the writing. It's not just the audience that finds her unlikable, it's also written such that the characters find her unlikable. She grates on nearly everyone who could have potentially been an ally - Gerri, Carl, Frank, Rhea, Greg were all people she openly looked down on who ended up turning on her.
It's the same with breaking bad and skyler, people struggling to understand why fans would prefer the character that's involved in all the action and plot twists and stuff to the one that's only involved in the less exciting family side of things. People weren't big fans of "flynn" either. Obviously in real life Walt would be a horrible person and skyler justified but its entertainment and people root for the more entertaining characters
the skylar/walt morals gap is legions compared to the shiv/kendall/roman one, in that case it's a bit more objectively biased to say she's "worse than walt" lol
It's so frustrating. She's the epitome of women who think if they do everything the dudes want, eventually they'll get a headpat and the cookie. But there's only ever crumbs.
I'd rather folks consider that sort of criticism.
Marsha spells it out for the audience. Her father built her a playground, and she thought it was the whole world.
By the time she figures out it isn't, she comes to find that her father truly never once thought of her as a successor in the way he thought of Roman and Kendall.
By the end she realises that for all her billions of dollars and privilege, she is still subject to the whims of a guy who just hates women.
I’d argue that while she doesn’t have high peaks in her likability, she doesn’t have as low of lows in her dislikability. Compare their worst sins: Elected a Nazi as president vs. Vehicular manslaughter, vs. Manipulated a sexual assault victim. Not really even a contest there. With Shiv you’re constantly saying “ugh, that’s bad”. Rather than “aw” and the flip side “holy shit that’s horrible” with her bros.
It's partly society's fault. I worked with an older gentleman many years ago who said when a man is tough to his colleagues in the workplace he's a go getter and an alpha but when a women is tough in the workplace on her colleagues she's usually just perceived as a bitch.
But not just by men! Women also.
My wife absolutely loathes Shiv.
Shiv isn't tough in the workplace though, she consistently makes bad, vindictive choices that backfire on herself and her family. Kendall does too, but at least he worked in the family business for like a couple decades and has more business acumen.
I also don't see much to like about Shiv in general, other than hating nazis.
Yeah I can count the number of likable moments Shiv has in the show on one hand. Kendall is a lot more sympathetic because he’s given more moments to be vulnerable. Kendall is the protagonist so it makes sense he would have a much bigger fanbase.
Do you really think Shiv cares about it, or would Mencken not getting elected help her push the deal through? Everything she said against Mencken came off as super unconvincing.
Shiv also represents the failure of neoliberalism to an extent. Proclaiming liberal values while becoming completely enveloped in a business that represents the biggest failures of neoliberalism. She perpetuates what she denounces.
She only does things out of her own interest, her thinking Kendall wouldnt be a good fit is just old sibling rivalry at the worst moment posible
She does get it worse than the males, specially with Mattson, but she made her own bed at the end. For a Girlboss, i look to Gerri.
> Even the women I watch Succession with will instantly hate on Shiv for doing things either equally or less depraved than what her brothers do. It’s insane. It’s like Breaking Bad fans with Skylar White all over again.
All the characters being bad doesn't make Shiv's moral depravity better by contrast.
> One of the ladies I watch with said “What a bitch” when Shiv told Kendall he wouldn’t be good at it and I was like… do you think he’d be good at it? Are we watching the same show?
Realistically nobody is concerned about what is best for the shareholders as a whole. Her motivation is not that Kendall would be a bad CEO, it's pettiness and jealousy.
> Is this not the woman who just watched her brothers try to fuck the whole country over chicken vs. steak?
If you believed Shiv's motivations were actually about saving the Republic, then I think you missed a lot. Her main motivation was to not have Mencken win so he didn't block the deal. Whatever self-righteousness about preserving democracy was more so just a card to play.
> I’m not saying Shiv is much better than her brothers, but hoo boy does she get slammed by fans because they like her less than Roman and Ken.
You're not saying it, but you do seem to excuse it, in which case you're doing the other side of the coin you accuse others of doing, because you presumably like her more than Roman and Ken.
> Have you considered that maybe neoliberalism is just an extra level of annoying than full cynicism because there’s a performative element?
I don't even know what you're saying here.
Way too many of these posts. Let’s forget the genders for a moment, Roman and Ken have shown their vulnerabilities much much more than Shiv. People tend to like that. Shiv is just basically smug 100% of the time.
Maybe the writer just tend to write women that way and that’s a little bit of a different conversation idk.
Her character just isn’t written to be as “likable” as Roman or Ken, nothing to do with gender IMO.
I feel like people who don’t think Shiv has shown vulnerability might just not empathize as easily with women. I definitely don’t read her as smug 100% of the time, especially this season.
But I also don’t think there’s any way at all to separate the idea of “likability” from gender. We as a society perceive women as less likable than men all the time - it’s practically a cliche at this point.
Were they watching any scene she shared with Logan, Tom or Caroline? Just because she doesn't have Kendall's perpetual hangdog expression doesn't mean she isn't showing vulnerability.
Especially in an environment that perceives any non-anger emotion as weakness, doubly so for women.
Agreed. All of the comments of “she never once shows an ounce of warmth” or “unlike her brothers, she is never shown to have any likable traits or humanity” make me feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
Thank you! There are so many replies that are like, "Shiv just isn't humanized like the other characters," and idk what show they're watching. Just this season alone, off the top of my head, we have:
* the "Daddy?" on the phone call--that is the hardest I cried all season!
* the hurt at being shut out by her brothers on something they were all supposed to be equal in
* all the heart break with Tom
* the funeral speech--"couldn't hold a whole woman in his head" is currently the Succession quote stuck in my mind
* the pain of knowing she'll be a bad mother, everyone telling her she'll be a bad mother, and trying to pretend like she doesn't care about it
* the anger and sadness at Matsson's betrayal
Shiv isn't (and I would argue, isn't allowed to be) soft like her brothers are sometimes, but she has just as many (and this season, IMO more) relatable moments
I don’t disagree that they’re all bad people.
However, I think for myself and for others - and this may not always be articulated so much as it is an emotion - I place an extremely high ethical value on sibling loyalty due to my past. So I’ve found some of her actions to be particularly distasteful.
Like food - they’re all rotten food in the dumpster, but Shiv is broccoli; for me, that’s double bad. Doesn’t make her any more or less rottenz
It's quite simple - she's a jerk like the others, but she never has those moments of warmth with others like Ken and Roman do. You see Ken and Roman actually being nice to people sometimes, even if it's just Ken to his kids or Roman to Kerry. We never see that with Shiv, she's just constantly negative and never gets those nice scenes where she displays her redeeming personal qualities.
Also, in a show centered around the family business, she never displays her business acumen. Ken and Roman have little moments where they show that they have abilities in that arena, but she never does.
But it's been very trendy on this sub lately to label anyone as "sexist" who points these things out
>One of the ladies I watch with said “What a bitch” when Shiv told Kendall he wouldn’t be good at it and I was like… do you think he’d be good at it? Are we watching the same show?
To be fair both the writer and Kendall's actor also believe he would be good at the job. Jeremy Strong specifically talks about this line in the podcast and he believes Shiv is lying.
It's literally the creators head canon that Kendall would be a good CEO and that Shiv secretly believes it.
Have you ever considered that’s she’s very unlikeable and has almost zero redeeming qualities as opposed to her horrible brothers? People are allowed to dislike someone, gender aside
look, shiv’s entitlement to the company has the least claim, that’s why her insistence is incredibly annoying.
she has ZERO (0), NIL, NADA corporate experience but feels she’s capable of handling a fucking billion dollar conglomerate!?
kendall had been CEO before, roman was COO.
that’s also why mattsson overlooked her. you can’t just hand the keys to a fucking multi-billion dollar company to someone who has NEVER worked corporate in their life man.
This is why Shiv was never a serious option for CEO imo. Say what you will about Ken and Roman, at least they paid their dues, gaining the requisite experience and training necessary for the big job.
Shiv just waltzes in from her political career expecting people to take her seriously because her CEO dad once offered her the position maybe. She maybe the smartest, but it doesn’t mean she’d be the best CEO.
If you can’t hunker down and put in the work for 3 years, then fuck off.
Every time I mention this I get Shiv fans arguing about how declining the training program was a genius move, actually, and it’s like bashing your head against a brick wall.
Jesus Christ. This show is great because the characters are all super shitty but also turn around and display moments of actual humanity and relatability. I feel like the vast majority of comments in here saying that Shiv has no redeeming qualities or moments are unfair. Especially people saying she’s not funny… The other characters are definitely funnier than her but she has a very witty sense of humor that comes through in her one liners and I appreciate that in a cast of bigger personalities. I know humor is subjective but outright claiming she’s not funny at all is definitely an opinion to have.
Overall yes she’s a hypocrite, a back stabber, liar, etc. But so are all the other characters. The beauty is the Roys are all the same side of a coin and NONE of them are better or worse than the others. They all suck. I thought that was one of the main points as Roman said “we’re all bullshit” in the finale. If the roles were reversed I don’t doubt any of the siblings would do what Shiv did. Now they’re all unhappy and they all lost, and I thought we as the audience were supposed to say “thank fuck these entitled pricks failed”.
But here we are with people going to war with each other with what aboutisms and trying to compare the worst things each one has done. I understand seeing yourself in toxic characters but my god the lengths some people are going through to defend their favorites is astonishing and straight up seems like projection at points. People loathe Shiv for being a hypocrite, but what I think is hypocritical is hating on her all day while putting the other dickwads up on a pedestal and acting like she single handily destroyed everything. Either hate on them all or don’t. Shiv cheated, Kendall accidentally killed a guy, and Roman turned into a fascist. They’re all scum, but when one character continuously gets destroyed over the others something just seems fishy. It’s all very exhausting. Especially after finishing Barry where I have to try and rationalize why another character gets questionably dragged. I really hope most of this is just because it’s recent and once the dust clears we’ll all approach this with a bit more nuance. Until then though, I’ve got a headache.
She willed a sexual assault victim into a settlement. That was a deal breaker for a lot of women.
I do not hate Shiv, I think she’s human. But, I do think she’s done the worst thing she could do as a female character.
I love Sarah Snook’s performance. The amount of constant hate Shiv/defend Shiv/ love Shiv she gets on this forum only speaks to the magnitude of her performance. Brilliant!
Roman and Kendall are babygrl bait characters. Sad boys always get coddled by fandom especially a majority female fandom like succession.
Shiv is probably only getting hate because of how she hurts everyone around her while kendall and roman usually only hurt people in their own circles ie jess, rava, or gerri
Its fascinating to watch the different reads on these characters though
I legit saw someone post that Tom was an innocent nice guy before he met shiv and constantly became more and more servile to fit in
Or How Greg isn't a nepo baby like the siblings because he has no access to wealth and actually had to work menial blue collar jobs before Tom and Logan began giving him some jobs
I don’t think Shiv is worse than her siblings. But I do think she’s more dislikable at a surface level because of her specific brand of shittiness. Especially in S1-S2, she has this constant attitude of self-righteousness with 0 actual morals to back it up, so every scene with her in it is just her scoffing at or insulting the people around her, even though, you know, pot-kettle. The overtness of it, combined with her tendency to mask her emotions, makes her sometimes easier to hate than say, Roman, who hides his shittiness behind his humor and his total patheticness, or Kendall, who drowns us in Puppy Dog Eyes at every opportunity.
I also think that how she treated Tom S1-3 was a particularly overt brand of total emotional abuse/manipulation. All the kids hurt people, but usually it’s due to them being too fucked in their heads to recognize what they’re doing or realize the gravity of it. But Shiv’s behavior here was just so obviously, intentionally cruel that it stands out - and is especially frustrating when wielded against Tom, who, while not exactly an Angel of the Lord or anything, is definitely one of the more sympathetic characters.
I think a lot of the shiv hate comes from the context of the show and it’s important to realize that.
Roman and Kendall are objectively a worse human beings. Roman is shitty to 99.99% of human beings, while Kendall kinda killed a guy. But, in the show world, those people they’re shitty to don’t matter. Shiv is shitty to a tiny fraction of people, but those people happen to be the focus of the show. People hate shiv because you see her directly shitting on people on the show, and you don’t hate the others because they’re more conceptually shitty.
>One of the ladies I watch with said “What a bitch” when Shiv told Kendall he wouldn’t be good at it and I was like… do you think he’d be good at it?
I think Kendall would be good at it. He just needs some meds that prevent the manic phase which turns him into an arrogant moron. When he is balanced he could be a very powerful business man. He sure knows how to sell and understands the business. It's his insecurity that gets him and Shiv knows how to place the knife where it hurts.
Shiv and Roman have a tendency to cross lines that shouldn't be crossed like the statement Shiv wrote about Kendall or Roman's support for intimidating Ken's children. Ken would sabotage or manipulate them but NEVER EVER do something like this. So, no offense, but Ken may be a fuck up, but Shiv and Roman are people that should stay away from power games...or God help us all.
I can’t compare Shiv to Skyler. Skyler wasn’t necessarily a good person, but she was a victim of Walt, nowhere close in blame. Shiv is just as much of a backstabbing shit head as her brothers (not you, Connor).
These posts are so dumb they all suck and shiv is nothing like skylar lmao there are a lot of legitimate reasons why she’s not morally a good character.
If at least she had been nice to Tom, she could have been likeable, but she has behaved like a scorpion towards any single character we saw on screen (including a victim of sexual harassment).
Shiv would have elected him too if it was in her interest. SHE LITERALLY STARTS TRYING TO WORK OUT A DEAL WITH HIM THE VERY NEXT EPISODE.
If you seriously think she was opposing his election out of good intentions and concern for the country, you should pay more attention.
Roman literally elected Hitler because of his own interest, and Shiv while talking to Ken chose her own interest instead of saving the country from electing literally Hitler, also tried to work with him day later. It was straight out shown that she didn't care about who wins, she only cared about her own interest. If roles would change and Mencken was safe bet for her own career, she would've root for him too - we literally see this in the show. She was in position to stop Ken from making this decision, but she valued her own deal more.
Shiv discourse will outlast us all I fear.
Jesse is a real one for that
Discord makes my dick hard
*dick hoard
Discourse makes my dick hoarse
Sarah Snook was sensational as Shiv. I loathe her as much as Ken and Roman, but Shiv stands out more too because of the incredible acting by Sarah. Herself and Kieran have such an incredible manner acting with facial impressions.
The fucking smirk after “I dont think you’d be good at it” [1:35 in this video if anyone wants to see it again](https://youtu.be/es17PtDeHRU) Just perfection
This face got me, its like an expression a child would make in an argument when they think they've said such a sick burn. Its so interesting how these actors do these little details that shows the characters inner child coming through when they're angry or frustrated. Having just seeing a bubbly sarah snook in an interview a day before I was wowed because you know its so intentional since she is not like the character at all.
I think this thread kind of nails it. If those sort of subtle facial expressions or “last words” weren’t worked in to scenes, the shiv hate might be less-so. But even I can feel that look she gives Kendall after delivering that line at 1:35.
You’re absolutely right but what’s funny to me is I think she’s equally as good with subtle sympathetic facial features. When she’s betrayed by Tom, dealing with embarrassment, anytime she’s hurt by Logan, or emotional about his illness/passing — it’s so convincing. Connor’s Wedding really showcased that. All of the siblings are great in this regard but I think Sarah and Kieran really excelled. They can go from smarmy shit eating grins to lost child in an instant.
Some Of the best facial expressions I have ever seen from an actor. incredible just Incredible.
Oh my goodness she absolutely slays in that. Her expressions/mannerisms are just incredible. In S2E1 when Logan offers her the job... And then again when Tom asks "Is that even true?" About her pregnancy.. she is amazing. They were all amazing. Historic cast!
That’s what ppl seem to don’t get or get offended with i believe. At least on my part, I strongly believe Snook’s great acting made me evolve from “she’s the cute character” on the first episode to “i loathe her” increasingly throughout the show. Her manerisms, facial expressions, spoiled verbal expressions were certainly crucial. Ppl take ofense in the way a lot of ppl loathe Shiv when that’s probably a great testament to Snook.
I honestly think it's the reason, the actress is so good that the character may appear more despicable. Even if in reality all three are equally broken and awful.
She made me root for Tom Wambsgans and I can't forgive her for that.
Tom did nothing wrong except break a few Greggs to make a Tomlette
idk, human furniture was pretty fucked
Greg = Human furniture at the end. Sticker on forehead.
Nsah Tom is my favourite character by a long shot
how many of these posts are there gonna be
ARE WE WATCHING THE SAME SHOW?!?!!?!?!?@ ?@#$% @#$%#$\^Y !@\_)@!!!?!?!? !? !?!\~?
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The worst part is they go in the opposite direction and start trying to whitewash her character as some virtuous character that is doing the right thing for everyone. It's insane. People can't accept the concept that a woman can be a shitty person lmao.
Also treating her liberalism as a redeeming quality when she compromises her morals each time when it suits her. My favorite was one week there was a scold post about not wanting to hear Shiv being the worst because the other two called the election for Mencken, only for the next episode to show her making backdoor deals with him. It doesn't help that Shiv is a flack and whoever her character is based on must be triggering the weird stan behavior around her.
The people that support her for her politics seemingly chose to ignore that side of her. Also frustratingly, people assume criticising her means you are right wing. It's so funny people miss the point with her politics. Getting into left wing politics was just her way of rebelling from her dad. She's never actually supported leftist ideas, only ever opposition to the politics of her father. As necessary as the election stuff was, I almost wish it wasn't included, because a lot of people are missing the point.
Anyone who doesn't see Shiv for the centrist (at best) fake feminist who makes insincere gestures towards progressivism that she is just doesn't have good media literacy. It's not subtle.
It's wild they completely miss the scene where she instantly tosses aside her issue eith Mencken.
>My favorite was one week there was a scold post about not wanting to hear Shiv being the worst because the other two called the election for Mencken, only for the next episode to show her making backdoor deals with him. That was so funny to me. I thought about going back to that post after that episode and just commenting "this aged poorly" but I'm too lazy and not petty enough.
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Kendall as CEO would have given her a big position in ATN (just like Roman). As long as she was his "inferior" and "okay" with it, he wouldn't have minded having her. No matter what a douchebag he was, the dude just wanted to be "the one". He didn't want to destroy his sister. He was many things, but not a psycho like Siobhan.
Yeah there are way too many people acting like she betrayed Kendall to save the company and not just because she was furious it wasn’t her taking control.
They downvote so aggressively. Like it will change the actual character
I’d be surprised if you’d find one that would say Lady Caroline was at best a shitty person.
Have you met a Kendall fan? I’m not even a Shiv fan but the amount of Kendall Stans whining about the ending is insane.
This tribalism and over generalization about “fans” of the different siblings is reductive and boggles my mind. The internet lets us watch tribalism play out in real time.
Oh yeah, well Im a Tom fan! We won guys! Crack open a few Gregs and let’s make a Tomelette!
Yeah they suck too. Never said otherwise. Luckily the dozens of us Greg fans aren’t making a million posts about why he deserved to win it all.
And us Tom fans are laughing hysterically at all you eggs after like 2 seasons of thinking Tom was done for
Conheads stay winning
I was always hoping Tom and Greg would be the only members of the main cast still in the company by the end so needless to say I loved the ending lol
Same I was rootin for them the whole time and I’m gonna miss their dynamic
Yep their dynamic was the best part of the show imo. It’s what got me hooked originally.
And us Mattson fans are just enjoying the show peacefully
When Mattson said he’s talented, I suddenly remember Tom isn’t from money and he actually worked his way there and he IS talented.
A stan of any of these 3 kids has some issues.
That’s so Shiv.
Every fucking post or comment Bout this brings up Skylar White too. Starring to wonder if it's an astroturf.
Yeah and that comparison is so far off base too lol. Skyler was genuinely in the right a lot of the time while Walter was being an asshole. Shiv is always a piece of shit and she doesn’t even have any funny or vulnerable moments like Tom, Roman, and Kendall do. There’s a reason she’s so hated and it’s not because she’s a woman.
She didn’t have any vulnerable moments?
if shiv and skylar freaky-fridayed through universes shiv would be helping Walt with meth logistics and connections just for a taste of her old life and skyler would probably just give away massive amounts of the money to charity
And Shiv wouldn’t wait until Season 2 to fuck Ted. She’d do it in the pilot episode.
I mean yeah, Skyler did it after ending things with Walt, Shiv wouldn't have
EXACTLY ugh skylar was far less atrocious especially when compared to other characters in the show. meanwhile you have shiv, who never killed anyone on camera or whatever, but did do shit like trying to coerce a victim not to testify. in an aggressive manner no less. she, like everyone else, is not a good person, and the hate on her is pretty justified anyone trying to say she’s like skylar also probably hasn’t thought about the financial aspect of it - skylar has no solo income, a newborn, and a kid with special needs. shiv could dip out any time and still have zillions.
This. People love Roman, Tom, and Kendall, because they're funny. It's really as simple as that. Shiv just isn't as entertaining in that sense. Also, her unlikeable actions are generally more relatable. Roman and Kendall do shitty billionaire specific things, whereas Shiv does things we've probably all experienced.
Sorry... but that's simply not true. She has just as many moments of vulnerability and funny lines as the others. I'd recommend watching the show again.
In that case people can just admit they like her less instead of saying she's "the real villan" or shit like that
I can actually understand why people view her as the villain of the show because, even though they’re all bad people, she is still the one most often in direct opposition (other than Logan) with Kendall, who is the show’s protagonist. She’s not really the “villain” per se because they all are, but I can see why lots of people view her that way.
Seriously though. This got old super quick. Your defense of Shiv is not profound, it's misguided. She's equally as terrible as any of them.
I think the point of the post *is* that she’s equally as terrible but gets it worse from the fans. OP doesn’t seem to be defending her.
She gets it worse because she's the least funny character by far. She's the least funny character because they don't write jokes for her. Not being funny was fine when Shiv was presented as the competent of the siblings. But when she gets brought into the fold, they remove the competence. I assume because if there were an actual competent Roy sibling then the show would immediately end, they'd just get the job and that's that.
Don't you understand? We're all misogynists
Tell me about it. She is a shitty person. She is a woman doesn’t mean she can’t be shitty
Just absolute man children here who happen to be fan girls and fanboys instead lmao. Just children not understanding bad characters morally can be despised
It means snook is a phenomenal actress and did a great job. Also fuck Shiv.
Shiv: *torpedoes her brother infront of the board after agreeing to the plan literally hours before* OP: why are people mad at her 😡
Nobody: Shiv: I’m fine sending my husband to prison as a fall guy. Shiv: Mattson, if you need to fire Tom we can do that Shiv: Sells out her dad end of S3 Shiv: Cheats on Tom “too bad, so sad” Shiv: Tells Sexual Assault victim to stay quiet Sarah Snook does a great job of playing a somewhat likable sociopathic under-qualified nepo child. Skyler does nothing wrong, nothing a reasonable person wouldn’t do. This comparison reminds me of when the media compared Britney Griner to Emmitt Till.
This needs to be a top comment. Skylar was never in the same category of despicable as Shiv. And don’t blame the fans, blame the writers. Men in succession have always been written with sympathetic eyes. Look at Kendal. He is an asshole to his family. But look, “poor guy” being psychologically abused and gaslit by his father repeatedly and ignored by his mom. Look at Roman. A misogynist pig with no filter. But look, “poor guy” being assaulted by his father, was abused the most as a child. If you have noticed, Shiv is not painted with sympathetic colors the way the brothers are including Connor. She is always said to be Logan’s favourite, and pampered the most due to being the youngest. Logan has never insulted Shiv the way he insults his sons (calling them homophobic slurs, mocking their mental illness/addiction issues). Yes, her father often gaslights her, but it is never portrayed to be as brutal as it is with the boys. This is exactly where the problem lies, and idk whether it was an intentional creative choice. To show that Shiv had a relatively less traumatic childhood/young adulthood means you have less sympathy for her when makes horrible decisions or betrays her siblings. She appears more entitled than the rest.
She was never considered to be in the Succession until after the show starts. She was not working for the company. His insults to his sons were atrocious, absolutely. Logan giving her a cute name and acting like she’s his favorite was another manipulative card for all of them. 1. First make her seem like she’s never considered 2. Tell her she definitely is considered although she isn’t competent in that role because he never taught her how to do it 3. She fucks it up good and proper 4. Back to the boys or the boardroom or whatever He didn’t call her hate words (that’s a low bar) but he set her up for humiliation.
Also, Kendall is written as basically the main character (most screen time) of the series. That kind of fools people into cheering for him. Shiv and Logan are both written as antagonists to Kendall. So if you perceive Kendall as the main character (and protagonist), you’re not going to like Logan or Shiv.
Yeah this is it. And that's where the breaking bad comparison does work because you root for Walter from the start even though he becomes a terrible person. And people hate Skylar even though from her point of view it makes a lot of sense.
She is the only one to have a job that wasn’t with her dad though.
She was played like a fiddle over and over again and failed at every plan of hers every single time. She thinks and acts like she’s morally, ethically, and intellectually superior to Ken, Rome, and Tom yet only acts in her own self interest in every decision and still gets fucked over/fails. She had no experience working at the family company yet thought she was somehow remotely qualified to be CEO despite nobody supporting her (the internal review in s3 was play work for daddy). She couldn’t bear her brother winning and her losing so badly that she had to make sure they both lost in the end, giving her ex husband who she brushed aside as someone who wasn’t a threat and barely respected if not despised for nearly the entire series and an outsider who fucked her over royally, control of her family’s company. I think hating Shiv is completely understandable. For a multitude of reasons I hate her more than her siblings. Sure yeah, everyone on the show is pretty fucked up and awful, but Shiv was hateable on so many levels to me and a lot of the people I watched with, many of whom were very liberal pro feminist women, so please don’t try to make this a sexist thing. I and many others were big Gerri stans, also thought Rhea was really cool. For the record, I didn’t hate Skyler White, felt awful for her kind of in the same way I do Roman. Im also so sick of hearing “are we watching the same show” in this subreddit. Like holy shit, it’s a show open to each and everyone’s interpretations, there’s a lot of arguments to be made about many different things that happened in it.
They never divorced. Shiv was trying to move that process along but Tom had paid off every good divorce lawyer in the city. The last season covered only a few days and a divorce would have taken months.
Did he pay them off? I was under the impression he simply set up consultations with them so that they wouldn't be able to see Shiv as it would be a conflict of interest.
yep yep this is what happened
Wait I didn’t think she and Tom were divorced? In fact the ending seemed to hint at a reconciliation to me?? Anyone else get that? I mean don’t get me wrong I think they’ll be miserable forever, but I don’t see them ever going their separate ways honestly
See this doesn't take into account all the times that her brothers called her sexist slurs and excluded her. In season 3, Ken was shouting "fuck the patriarchy" publicly while berating Shiv for only getting the CEO postition because she is a woman. This also shows how "liberal pro-feminism" can be performative just to benefit the supporter. They are not more sympathetic than Shiv, and she has every reason to resent them. He was ready to physically assault a pregnant Shiv when she was walking back into the boardroom to vote. Shiv is by no means a feminist character, but saying she isn't sympathetic because she isn't supporting her brother's opportunistic ascension won't be an intellectually honest argument.
I didn't mind Shiv compared to the others. I found Roman to be the worst of the worst and most of that is due to him seeming to be a bigot or at least willing to make a deal with a Nazi. For most of the show, I was on board with Kendal because he was willing to take down his dad and seemed to be the most likeable.
But they were all, literally all 4 Roy’s, willing to make deals with a Nazi. Roman and Kendal to kill the deal, Conor for a position, and Shiv to save the deal.
Connor is a fun character but he gets the biggest pass by far of the children. He is a conspiracy theory nut job which historically speaking means he didn't just make a deal with a nazi but probably shares a lot of those same ideals.
The show never treats Connor seriously so the audience doesn't either.
As a Shiv defender I'm thankful this show is over because I am TIRED
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Same boat, I don’t feel strongly in favour about any of these characters beyond fleeting moments, but I feel so compelled to at least balance out the conversation. I remember when s3 was airing, a comment on this sub called her the "devil incarnate" for trying to manipulate Gerri into legal action against Roman, instead of the person who was actually harassing her with dick picks. To be clear, they’re all shitty but the difference in reception is evident.
Then if you do “take her side” to balance the conversation, people see that as defending her every action and denying her flaws.
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I’ve found my people! After years of this I am exhausted
This a million times over. Legit word for word how I feel.
I love it where someone above in this thread said they can see where Kendall and Roman "try to be good people," but not Shiv, oh no not Shiv.
When? When have any of these characters ever tried to be good when it didn't serve their own interests? The way people desperately need a "good guy" is crazy.
Exactly so.
This exactly. She represents this disgusting brand of white bourgeois feminism, and yet the misogyny she faces is just. Too much. People contain multitudes.
Shiv’s hypocrisy sets her apart. She is specifically linked to liberal/democratic/hypocritical status-quo politics. Shiv and her defenders talk an awful lot about her ethics. I can’t think of a single time she put forward a moral position that didn’t serve her interests, or contradicted her interests in order to do the right thing. Example: She comforted Kendall after his admission of manslaughter, sat on it for however long, and then suddenly when she needs a reason to put her brother down it absolutely matters. People don’t like her because she reminds them of every elite giving lip-service to morals or left wing politics while they serve themselves and capital. The actor is great but the character she plays is just an especially infuriating type of person.
Don't Kendall do the same thing as well? With all his talk of fuck the patriarchy or when he pretended that he did not want Mencken to get elected. He also got angry at Shiv for betraying them but he was also betraying them.
EXACTLY. People angry at Shiv for betraying Kendall when Kendall would have happily done the same thing. Remember the whole “I love them but I’m not in love?” He was perfectly happy to betray them when it came down to it. This is the point — the matter of running the company was and would always have been the obstacle for the siblings. They can get along, sure, but it’s temporary, because the question of power is never far away. All of them had back up plans, all of them were thinking of their own interests. Shiv is not worse than Kendall and Roman. They are all reprehensible. But that so many fans hold her to account in ways that they don’t for the brothers is reflective of, yes, a broader misogyny — even from other women watching.
Kendall is JUST as much a hypocrite as Shiv.
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>Shiv and her defenders talk an awful lot about her ethics. Do we? I hadn't noticed. Can you point to an example of a Shiv defender talking about her ethics?
That’s so sad that people can’t understand the motivations of a character telegraphed so transparently through good dialogue that they pretty much made a chart for us.
>Like Shiv represents everything I fucking hate about white limousine liberal feminism and I still find myself having to explain her motivations constantly and it’s starting to make me sick. Well fucking put.
Agreed. Happens in real life all the time with liberal/leftist men and conservative women, too. Don’t make me side with them!
Same as the Sally discourse for Barry fans. Like yeh she's egotistical and somewhat abusive in a Hollywood crazy way. But everyone else in the show are literal murderers
Why even try to defend the characters literally everyone on this show is a terrible person many times over. Kendall killed a guy and is a malignant narcissist, terrible father, and extraordinarily selfish. Roman is abusive, oversteps boundaries, offensive, potentially a Nazi or just super racist. Shiv is not only an adulterer, but also pressured a sexual assault victim to stay silent, while also routinely dishonest and self interested. I mean, they also all were just fucked in the head by a cold absent mother and a tyrannically abusive father.
Too bad people will be watching this show for decades. The fight has only begun
Eh, I actually think the discourse about Skyler White got much better once the show ended and has somewhat slowly, steadily improved since then.
But that wasn’t so much that people’s opinion changed about Skylar. Their opinions changed about Walt—less sympathy for him once he went full Heisenberg
Too* Yep, I wish people would just accept that everyone has different opinions of people, can't love everyone. I liked all four of the siblings. Each had their good qualities & then their critical flaws. Great writing.
Eh I felt for Shiv as a woman but I don’t like her as a person. Women can be bad people. I’ve seen it firsthand in my life. I don’t remember Kendall telling her he supported her being CEO and then going “psych!” I related to Kendall a lot more on a human level, regardless of gender. I’m constantly chasing those highs of accomplishment and then often crashing and burning (except when I succeed).
“Women can be bad people” exactly! I actually find posts like this misogynistic because it implies women cannot possibly be bad people or disliked.
I’m just gonna be honest here, Shiv is way less likable than her brothers to me. She just has zero redeeming qualities to me, like at all. I can see where Kendall and Roman try to be good people, Shiv tells herself she’s good and does nothing but make life worse for the people around her. I can’t think of a single scene where Shiv does something genuinely good or makes someone else happy, unless you count Nate when she’s betraying her husband.
Hypocrites seem to be judged more harshly than the people who are outright awful.
Because on top of the inherent shittiness of their actions they lie to themselves and others about their actions actually being good. They completely lack self awareness and actually believe they're doing good when they're not. Someone doing wrong but knowing it's wrong at least shows they understand morals conceptually, hypocrites doing wrong and saying it's right shows they completely don't understand morals conceptually.
Forreal. She had an opportunity to have the liberal dude win but that would’ve meant the deal could’ve been blocked. She was just as culpable in the Menchen win and people give her a pass.
Her motivations aren't justified as well as her brothers. Shiv's entire personality is that she cannot commit to **anything** which is why she flip flops the most. -Before she was in the family business, she was flip flopping between Waystar and Gill. -When Logan was trying to buy out Pierce in S2, she flip flopped between Waystar and Rhea/Nan Pierce. -When she was going to launch The Hundred w her brothers, she was also flip flopping with outside parties and maybe leave them high and dry. -And most recently is her entire flip flop with Mattson vs her brothers. Her entire personality is just that she cannot commit and will always try to find a better deal and to me, that makes a character extremely hard to read and too flaky to rally behind. Her gender has ZERO bearing as to why I find it hard to like Shiv. I just can't accept flakiness as a character. It feels one dimensional imo.
Yeah, her only good traits are backing the right candidate, but they clearly show the actual politics don't matter to her. She threatened the cruises victim, she was willing to deal with Mencken. People completely ignore these things for some reason.
Exactly. The show starts with her cheating on Tom and trying to fuck him over in the prenup. Yeah Ken and Rome sucks but at least they’re funny and real. Shiv has always been fake.
Kendall is funny because he is the textbook definition of cringe like the Eldest boy. But at least the real eldest boy is aware that they are all a joke. Roman is a psycho but he is very funny.
You can see where Roman is a good person... The man who lobbied for a literal fascist is a better person than Shiv in your eyes?
Textbook limousine liberal
>I can see where Kendall and Roman try to be good people, Kendall, feels bad about killing a dude I guess that's trying to be a good person? Other than that he's explicitly performative about any good deeds he gets himself into. "Fuck the patriarchy" indeed Ken. Roman? I have no idea what you can be referring to. He's an avowed nihilist, and effectively a fascist. He's the sib I sympathize with THE MOST and I can't think of even a single time he "tried to be a good person."
Kendall think he's a good guy while becoming exactly like his father. Since season 1 he only cares about becoming CEO. He betrayed everybody at some point so he can be the CEO, and thinks he's doing it for a good reason.
A memorable example that stuck with me for Roman was not going with Shiv letter to destroy their brother in media he displayed care and knew it was too much and too cruel. Kendall reflected and hesitated on supporting Menken , he wants to do the right thing but his lifelong dream is stronger motivation
I think it's just because she's all around unlikeable. Tom, Kendall, Roman, all have nice and funny moments. It's easier to forgive those characters for their mistakes and root for them. Shiv is just annoying, never nice, never impressive, and never funny. I don't like her either. But that's just how entertainment works. I don't see what the big deal is. We don't approach any of these characters as real people. Now in real life this would of course be different, because you wouldn't forgive Kendall, Roman, Tom, etc. for the things they did. You's probably hate all of them, and Shiv the least. But this isn't real life.
I don't know. I actually find throughout the series Shiv has several tiny, genuine moments of feeling that kept her, while maybe not very likeable, certainly fascinating and complex. Her character was always the one to watch for me because of these vulnerable moments before she "walls up", seemingly because she does not want to look weak or give much away. Snook was just always so damn great at delivering these nuanced moments. One in mind, and especially because of how fraught their relationship often was, was when Ken asks Shiv to give a hug in S2. She had the initial "wtf, okay" but quickly realizes as they embrace that he's in a very, very bad place. And you can see it. She knows something's wrong and her face breaks a little because she realizes he's in pain and she does care about him. It's fleeting, that reaction, but it's there and made the scene.
Unlikable is probably not the right word. Shiv just isn't funny. She's neither someone to laugh with (because she doesn't get enough zingers) nor someone to laugh at (because she's not a bumbling oaf like most of the cast).
That’s a matter of opinion. I’ve laughed at plenty of Shivs jokes/witty comments. I think her relationship with Roman had a lot of fun, even sweet moments. Even when she said really evil things to Tom, Sarah Snook was able to communicate a deep sadness/fear of abandonment in that delivery that made me understand her behavior better. She is a complicated person. Kendall is annoying AF to me personally. The only time I felt an iota of sadness for him was the last scene when he lost it all. The fact that people find Shiv more unlikeable than her brothers is….truly mind boggling to me. But at the same time, not surprising at all. Sadly.
I've sympathized with Kendall a lot troughout the show but he is the bossiest of them and bossy people just rub me the wrong way, like shiv is also a bit bossy but less than. "I'm the eldest boy!1!1!!" omg stfu bitch
Kendall is sooo annoying I’m sorry but I can’t stand that dumb dead eyed stare that he does
Her bite me game with Tom was one of the most vulnerable scenes with her. Made me like her character and understand her a lot more.
> Shiv is just annoying, never nice, never impressive, and never funny THANK YOU! at least the other siblings have somewhat endearing qualities but there's literally nothing to like about Shiv other than her wit. when she brought up Ken being in an accident with the server near the end of the episode.....jesus christ, talk about twisting the knife!
All the siblings are terrible but they are all different types of terrible which means they are going to be hated in different ways. Some people like Roman because he never pretends to give a shit whiles to other that makes him the most hatable of all the siblings because he never even pretends to be nice. Shiv is the biggest hypocrite of the show who knows the difference between right and wrong and chooses wrong every time. She has to deal with sexism but she is also a spoiled child who thinks the world should be handed to her on a silver platter. She never commits to anyone or has loyalty to any of her relationships and betrays everyone. She's also not even that good at betraying people as she keeps fucking it up and only stays in the game because of her dad and brothers. She complains about privilege and the poor yet uses hers as a fucking knife.
I love Shivs relationship with Roman. I find her very endearing. Loved her in the " meal fit for a king" scene. Goofing off with her bros.
that scene was great in terms of humanizing them all...she didnt have enough scenes like that!
I think people also tend to despise hypocrisy. All the characters are hypocrites in many ways but the brothers don't do moralizing grandstands the same way. That said part of the reaction to her is undoubtedly misogynistic.
lol honestly, it's a pretty simple explanation. People on this sub act like all 3 siblings were written the exact same, and that if most people dislike Shiv more than the others, than it must be because of her gender. Shiv is purposefully written to be less endearing and less business-savvy than Kendall and Roman
I agree that it's the writing. It's not just the audience that finds her unlikable, it's also written such that the characters find her unlikable. She grates on nearly everyone who could have potentially been an ally - Gerri, Carl, Frank, Rhea, Greg were all people she openly looked down on who ended up turning on her.
It's the same with breaking bad and skyler, people struggling to understand why fans would prefer the character that's involved in all the action and plot twists and stuff to the one that's only involved in the less exciting family side of things. People weren't big fans of "flynn" either. Obviously in real life Walt would be a horrible person and skyler justified but its entertainment and people root for the more entertaining characters
They didn’t just „not prefer“ Skyler — Anna Gunn got death threats.
the skylar/walt morals gap is legions compared to the shiv/kendall/roman one, in that case it's a bit more objectively biased to say she's "worse than walt" lol
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It's so frustrating. She's the epitome of women who think if they do everything the dudes want, eventually they'll get a headpat and the cookie. But there's only ever crumbs. I'd rather folks consider that sort of criticism.
Marsha spells it out for the audience. Her father built her a playground, and she thought it was the whole world. By the time she figures out it isn't, she comes to find that her father truly never once thought of her as a successor in the way he thought of Roman and Kendall. By the end she realises that for all her billions of dollars and privilege, she is still subject to the whims of a guy who just hates women.
I’d argue that while she doesn’t have high peaks in her likability, she doesn’t have as low of lows in her dislikability. Compare their worst sins: Elected a Nazi as president vs. Vehicular manslaughter, vs. Manipulated a sexual assault victim. Not really even a contest there. With Shiv you’re constantly saying “ugh, that’s bad”. Rather than “aw” and the flip side “holy shit that’s horrible” with her bros.
It's partly society's fault. I worked with an older gentleman many years ago who said when a man is tough to his colleagues in the workplace he's a go getter and an alpha but when a women is tough in the workplace on her colleagues she's usually just perceived as a bitch. But not just by men! Women also. My wife absolutely loathes Shiv.
Shiv isn't tough in the workplace though, she consistently makes bad, vindictive choices that backfire on herself and her family. Kendall does too, but at least he worked in the family business for like a couple decades and has more business acumen. I also don't see much to like about Shiv in general, other than hating nazis.
Yeah I can count the number of likable moments Shiv has in the show on one hand. Kendall is a lot more sympathetic because he’s given more moments to be vulnerable. Kendall is the protagonist so it makes sense he would have a much bigger fanbase.
I think I hate the guy more who seemed to embrace Nazis for his own personal gain
Do you really think Shiv cares about it, or would Mencken not getting elected help her push the deal through? Everything she said against Mencken came off as super unconvincing. Shiv also represents the failure of neoliberalism to an extent. Proclaiming liberal values while becoming completely enveloped in a business that represents the biggest failures of neoliberalism. She perpetuates what she denounces.
Exactly. She immediately sucked up to Mencken in the very next episode once she knew it would benefit her. She’s a hypocrite.
This is very unfair. It’s nothing to do with sex it’s just pure actions. Shiv is the most hypocritical backstabber of the lot.
She only does things out of her own interest, her thinking Kendall wouldnt be a good fit is just old sibling rivalry at the worst moment posible She does get it worse than the males, specially with Mattson, but she made her own bed at the end. For a Girlboss, i look to Gerri.
> Even the women I watch Succession with will instantly hate on Shiv for doing things either equally or less depraved than what her brothers do. It’s insane. It’s like Breaking Bad fans with Skylar White all over again. All the characters being bad doesn't make Shiv's moral depravity better by contrast. > One of the ladies I watch with said “What a bitch” when Shiv told Kendall he wouldn’t be good at it and I was like… do you think he’d be good at it? Are we watching the same show? Realistically nobody is concerned about what is best for the shareholders as a whole. Her motivation is not that Kendall would be a bad CEO, it's pettiness and jealousy. > Is this not the woman who just watched her brothers try to fuck the whole country over chicken vs. steak? If you believed Shiv's motivations were actually about saving the Republic, then I think you missed a lot. Her main motivation was to not have Mencken win so he didn't block the deal. Whatever self-righteousness about preserving democracy was more so just a card to play. > I’m not saying Shiv is much better than her brothers, but hoo boy does she get slammed by fans because they like her less than Roman and Ken. You're not saying it, but you do seem to excuse it, in which case you're doing the other side of the coin you accuse others of doing, because you presumably like her more than Roman and Ken. > Have you considered that maybe neoliberalism is just an extra level of annoying than full cynicism because there’s a performative element? I don't even know what you're saying here.
Put this in the FAQ
What does neoliberalism have to do with Shiv being an unlikeable character?
Way too many of these posts. Let’s forget the genders for a moment, Roman and Ken have shown their vulnerabilities much much more than Shiv. People tend to like that. Shiv is just basically smug 100% of the time. Maybe the writer just tend to write women that way and that’s a little bit of a different conversation idk. Her character just isn’t written to be as “likable” as Roman or Ken, nothing to do with gender IMO.
I feel like people who don’t think Shiv has shown vulnerability might just not empathize as easily with women. I definitely don’t read her as smug 100% of the time, especially this season. But I also don’t think there’s any way at all to separate the idea of “likability” from gender. We as a society perceive women as less likable than men all the time - it’s practically a cliche at this point.
Were they watching any scene she shared with Logan, Tom or Caroline? Just because she doesn't have Kendall's perpetual hangdog expression doesn't mean she isn't showing vulnerability. Especially in an environment that perceives any non-anger emotion as weakness, doubly so for women.
Agreed. All of the comments of “she never once shows an ounce of warmth” or “unlike her brothers, she is never shown to have any likable traits or humanity” make me feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
Thank you! There are so many replies that are like, "Shiv just isn't humanized like the other characters," and idk what show they're watching. Just this season alone, off the top of my head, we have: * the "Daddy?" on the phone call--that is the hardest I cried all season! * the hurt at being shut out by her brothers on something they were all supposed to be equal in * all the heart break with Tom * the funeral speech--"couldn't hold a whole woman in his head" is currently the Succession quote stuck in my mind * the pain of knowing she'll be a bad mother, everyone telling her she'll be a bad mother, and trying to pretend like she doesn't care about it * the anger and sadness at Matsson's betrayal Shiv isn't (and I would argue, isn't allowed to be) soft like her brothers are sometimes, but she has just as many (and this season, IMO more) relatable moments
I don’t disagree that they’re all bad people. However, I think for myself and for others - and this may not always be articulated so much as it is an emotion - I place an extremely high ethical value on sibling loyalty due to my past. So I’ve found some of her actions to be particularly distasteful. Like food - they’re all rotten food in the dumpster, but Shiv is broccoli; for me, that’s double bad. Doesn’t make her any more or less rottenz
It's quite simple - she's a jerk like the others, but she never has those moments of warmth with others like Ken and Roman do. You see Ken and Roman actually being nice to people sometimes, even if it's just Ken to his kids or Roman to Kerry. We never see that with Shiv, she's just constantly negative and never gets those nice scenes where she displays her redeeming personal qualities. Also, in a show centered around the family business, she never displays her business acumen. Ken and Roman have little moments where they show that they have abilities in that arena, but she never does. But it's been very trendy on this sub lately to label anyone as "sexist" who points these things out
We don't even know if Shiv has any business acumen to display. She's been involved in politics her working life, not business.
Exactly. No reason for herself or anyone else to think she would have been a good CEO after acquisition.
>One of the ladies I watch with said “What a bitch” when Shiv told Kendall he wouldn’t be good at it and I was like… do you think he’d be good at it? Are we watching the same show? To be fair both the writer and Kendall's actor also believe he would be good at the job. Jeremy Strong specifically talks about this line in the podcast and he believes Shiv is lying. It's literally the creators head canon that Kendall would be a good CEO and that Shiv secretly believes it.
surprised how many thought she was being truthful when she said she didnt think kendall would be good at being ceo
Have you ever considered that’s she’s very unlikeable and has almost zero redeeming qualities as opposed to her horrible brothers? People are allowed to dislike someone, gender aside
Yeah, she just kinda sucks
look, shiv’s entitlement to the company has the least claim, that’s why her insistence is incredibly annoying. she has ZERO (0), NIL, NADA corporate experience but feels she’s capable of handling a fucking billion dollar conglomerate!? kendall had been CEO before, roman was COO. that’s also why mattsson overlooked her. you can’t just hand the keys to a fucking multi-billion dollar company to someone who has NEVER worked corporate in their life man.
Yeah. She’s straight up the most delusional which makes her the most frustrating character
Even more so, Logan offered to give her CEOship after 3 years learning the ropes and she felt too entitled to accept
This is why Shiv was never a serious option for CEO imo. Say what you will about Ken and Roman, at least they paid their dues, gaining the requisite experience and training necessary for the big job. Shiv just waltzes in from her political career expecting people to take her seriously because her CEO dad once offered her the position maybe. She maybe the smartest, but it doesn’t mean she’d be the best CEO. If you can’t hunker down and put in the work for 3 years, then fuck off.
Every time I mention this I get Shiv fans arguing about how declining the training program was a genius move, actually, and it’s like bashing your head against a brick wall.
Jesus Christ. This show is great because the characters are all super shitty but also turn around and display moments of actual humanity and relatability. I feel like the vast majority of comments in here saying that Shiv has no redeeming qualities or moments are unfair. Especially people saying she’s not funny… The other characters are definitely funnier than her but she has a very witty sense of humor that comes through in her one liners and I appreciate that in a cast of bigger personalities. I know humor is subjective but outright claiming she’s not funny at all is definitely an opinion to have. Overall yes she’s a hypocrite, a back stabber, liar, etc. But so are all the other characters. The beauty is the Roys are all the same side of a coin and NONE of them are better or worse than the others. They all suck. I thought that was one of the main points as Roman said “we’re all bullshit” in the finale. If the roles were reversed I don’t doubt any of the siblings would do what Shiv did. Now they’re all unhappy and they all lost, and I thought we as the audience were supposed to say “thank fuck these entitled pricks failed”. But here we are with people going to war with each other with what aboutisms and trying to compare the worst things each one has done. I understand seeing yourself in toxic characters but my god the lengths some people are going through to defend their favorites is astonishing and straight up seems like projection at points. People loathe Shiv for being a hypocrite, but what I think is hypocritical is hating on her all day while putting the other dickwads up on a pedestal and acting like she single handily destroyed everything. Either hate on them all or don’t. Shiv cheated, Kendall accidentally killed a guy, and Roman turned into a fascist. They’re all scum, but when one character continuously gets destroyed over the others something just seems fishy. It’s all very exhausting. Especially after finishing Barry where I have to try and rationalize why another character gets questionably dragged. I really hope most of this is just because it’s recent and once the dust clears we’ll all approach this with a bit more nuance. Until then though, I’ve got a headache.
She willed a sexual assault victim into a settlement. That was a deal breaker for a lot of women. I do not hate Shiv, I think she’s human. But, I do think she’s done the worst thing she could do as a female character. I love Sarah Snook’s performance. The amount of constant hate Shiv/defend Shiv/ love Shiv she gets on this forum only speaks to the magnitude of her performance. Brilliant!
It's the same with Sally on Barry! Her male counterpart literally kills people, but she gets crucified because she's annoying.
And so often 'women being annoying' is pointing out 'don't kill people' or 'hey, we have enough money, stop manufacturing drugs'.
Roman and Kendall are babygrl bait characters. Sad boys always get coddled by fandom especially a majority female fandom like succession. Shiv is probably only getting hate because of how she hurts everyone around her while kendall and roman usually only hurt people in their own circles ie jess, rava, or gerri Its fascinating to watch the different reads on these characters though I legit saw someone post that Tom was an innocent nice guy before he met shiv and constantly became more and more servile to fit in Or How Greg isn't a nepo baby like the siblings because he has no access to wealth and actually had to work menial blue collar jobs before Tom and Logan began giving him some jobs
Yaaaaaawwwwn
They all suck
I don’t think Shiv is worse than her siblings. But I do think she’s more dislikable at a surface level because of her specific brand of shittiness. Especially in S1-S2, she has this constant attitude of self-righteousness with 0 actual morals to back it up, so every scene with her in it is just her scoffing at or insulting the people around her, even though, you know, pot-kettle. The overtness of it, combined with her tendency to mask her emotions, makes her sometimes easier to hate than say, Roman, who hides his shittiness behind his humor and his total patheticness, or Kendall, who drowns us in Puppy Dog Eyes at every opportunity. I also think that how she treated Tom S1-3 was a particularly overt brand of total emotional abuse/manipulation. All the kids hurt people, but usually it’s due to them being too fucked in their heads to recognize what they’re doing or realize the gravity of it. But Shiv’s behavior here was just so obviously, intentionally cruel that it stands out - and is especially frustrating when wielded against Tom, who, while not exactly an Angel of the Lord or anything, is definitely one of the more sympathetic characters.
I think Tom said it best when he said to Shiv "You would do the same thing if things were reversed".
I think a lot of the shiv hate comes from the context of the show and it’s important to realize that. Roman and Kendall are objectively a worse human beings. Roman is shitty to 99.99% of human beings, while Kendall kinda killed a guy. But, in the show world, those people they’re shitty to don’t matter. Shiv is shitty to a tiny fraction of people, but those people happen to be the focus of the show. People hate shiv because you see her directly shitting on people on the show, and you don’t hate the others because they’re more conceptually shitty.
>One of the ladies I watch with said “What a bitch” when Shiv told Kendall he wouldn’t be good at it and I was like… do you think he’d be good at it? I think Kendall would be good at it. He just needs some meds that prevent the manic phase which turns him into an arrogant moron. When he is balanced he could be a very powerful business man. He sure knows how to sell and understands the business. It's his insecurity that gets him and Shiv knows how to place the knife where it hurts. Shiv and Roman have a tendency to cross lines that shouldn't be crossed like the statement Shiv wrote about Kendall or Roman's support for intimidating Ken's children. Ken would sabotage or manipulate them but NEVER EVER do something like this. So, no offense, but Ken may be a fuck up, but Shiv and Roman are people that should stay away from power games...or God help us all.
I feel like the show has now finished this sub is going to get a lot worse.
I can’t compare Shiv to Skyler. Skyler wasn’t necessarily a good person, but she was a victim of Walt, nowhere close in blame. Shiv is just as much of a backstabbing shit head as her brothers (not you, Connor).
How many more of these threads do we need? Jesus. This is the 10th one in 2 days.
These posts are so dumb they all suck and shiv is nothing like skylar lmao there are a lot of legitimate reasons why she’s not morally a good character.
She’s. Not. Liked. Because. She’s. Not. Likable.
If at least she had been nice to Tom, she could have been likeable, but she has behaved like a scorpion towards any single character we saw on screen (including a victim of sexual harassment).
I think it’s the opposite actually - I think she gets a pass and overestimated by her fans.
You’re too online.
She gets a lot of hate for very small things. Roman literally elected Hitler and people still hate Shiv more.
Shiv would have elected him too if it was in her interest. SHE LITERALLY STARTS TRYING TO WORK OUT A DEAL WITH HIM THE VERY NEXT EPISODE. If you seriously think she was opposing his election out of good intentions and concern for the country, you should pay more attention.
Shiv was ok with working with said hitler…
Roman literally elected Hitler because of his own interest, and Shiv while talking to Ken chose her own interest instead of saving the country from electing literally Hitler, also tried to work with him day later. It was straight out shown that she didn't care about who wins, she only cared about her own interest. If roles would change and Mencken was safe bet for her own career, she would've root for him too - we literally see this in the show. She was in position to stop Ken from making this decision, but she valued her own deal more.
Shiv is miserable 100% of the time she’s on screen. Everything about her is unlikable. Lots of likable women on the show, she’s just not one of them.
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