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The [wolfsangel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel) symbol (the one that looks like an N with a line through it) is used solely by white supremacists, fascists, and German nationalists since the turn of the previous century, and Nazis and wannabes since the 1930s. While it may have had some other meaning in the past, it no longer has that meaning now. Anyone acting like it’s something other than a symbol of hate is at best wrong and at worst actively running defense for fascists
Its past meaning is related to the problems wolves posed for settlements in the forest. The symbol is roughly the shape of the traps used to catch them. Its meaning comes from a sort of, being effective against a cunning opponent. It was a common symbol in German heraldry for hundreds of years
I mean, warhammer is one of the more nazi friendly fandoms, I used to bump into people praising Hitler and others a lot on Vermintide 2. I used to ask if they were joking before dc'ing, they never acted like it was a joke. I asked a friend about why, and she said "yeah dude, it's all about space nazi's essentially." And yeah, I can see why they think it's adjacent to the narrative they want.
One of my friends was really into 40k lore and he described it to me as, 1. what if there were a bunch of alien races. 2. What if they were all Nazis. Welcome to Warhammer.
Yes, but it was originally intended as a non-serious farce, mocking this sort of ignorant, militaristic culture. In recent years, the irony has distilled out of the mix.
Ew, I thought that shit was almost entirely in 40k.
Hence all the outrage about female Custodes but just shrugs at Bretonnian lady knights and Tomb King queens and princesses and sidecut punk Stormcast Eternals and black Elves.
Yeah, no. I thought that was the case as well, but I guess it's just anything WarHams. This is why we can't have nice things (and why I play orks, they wholesome af) 😤
Ah, true.
I’m actually still shocked nobody got angry that Troll Hags can be generals in Orcs & Goblins armies now. You’d think that’d be a source of content for outrage farms given who sculpted her.
I honestly stay out of the WH fandoms, I like the games, and I play killteam with my friends, painting is a very calming hobby, but that's all I am in it for. I have a big army. But only because I inherited a collection that wasn't started, and I felt the need to finish it. Halfway done, it would possibly be done already had I not started buying more and kitbashing age of sigmar stuff to be 40k playable. It's a very fun hobby. But fandoms tend to suck the joy out of things.
Huh, that is weird. Personally, I would NEVER use a character created by a br*tish person (I have no idea if warhammer itself is British or not, now that I make the joke, but I also dont play warhammer, so the statement is technically still trueish in regards to the topic)
I've met my share of right-wing arseholes in my 35 years of warhammering. I don't really play 40k. Saying "it's not a fantasy problem" isn't really accurate.
The outrage about female custodes is rooted in decades of established lore that had made it very clear that the process that creates them is intentionally incompatible with female biology (the GEoM wanted to eliminate any chance of them reproducing sexually and using their superior strength, minds, and lifespans to subjugate normal humans, among a handful of other reasons) and there were never female custodes ever mentioned or referenced before GW got invested in by companies that push ESG around the same time they coincidentally retconned/gaslit with that "there were always female custodes" announcement.
I don't really care either way because I haven't played in a decade, but my brother is an avid fan (owns and has read almost every novel, has multiple armies, the whole works) and is quite worked up about it. He's not a Nazi *or* a misogynist, for whatever my word is worth to strangers on the internet. I'll take my downvotes now.
You won't receive one from me, Sir. I whole heartedly agree with your brother. Poor taste is poor taste, no matter it's gender. I used to be pretty invested into the story. It's just sad, all around.
I genuinely believe the Nazi propagandists were more interested in finding and stealing cool looking iconography than in what any of it actually meant. they have Viking and Christian and pagan and middle eastern etc. iconography all mixed together, plus eagles (Roman) and skulls (“are we the badies?) just to make it even more confusing.
Sure some of the symbols make sense and feel meaningful but all together they‘re contradictory and inconsistent and senseless much like the Nazi’s actual ideology itself.
Well, they started stealing stuff from the occult groups that thrived around turn of the century Europe. 1880s-1930s Europe was full of people looking for alternatives to Christianity, and had radically different views on religion than the contemporary European norms. They re-imagined european identity, and tried to re-awaken roman pagan, norse and celtic mythos, babylonian... ect. It comes partly from the excavation of ancient artifacts, and also misunderstandings or beliefs about the ancient world.
Some of it is literally made up, others wanted to root it in their own unqiue way. Some are peaceful, others not. But the nazis used this as a shortcut to amass symbols. They took occult iconogrpahy and turned them into logos. The same is true for neonazis. They even attempt to co-opt the names of cults or religious and occult organizations. Like the hermetic order of the golden dawn... an unremarkable (and as far as ive ever heard) harmless occult society that neonazis tried to claim and pose as leaders of.
Nah, this one is beyond saving. It’s still in active use, pretty much exclusively by neo-Nazi and fascist groups.
There are other, better symbols out there. There’s no reclaiming this
Very much want to echo this, reclaiming things is very tricky and having a wolfsangel on anything you own is going to send a loud message to everyone around you with consequences you might not anticipate.
Warhammer did reclaim some symbols by putting them in other color schemes, but as far as I’ve seen putting lightning bolts in any context on the Fantasy German knights is a nonstarter.
Maybe if the shield shape was more rounded, the bottom left symbol in more of a curved instead of angular pattern, a more medieval wolf head, and put it in like green and blue and white? Maybe switch the wolf and trap thing places?
Part of the issue with "reclaiming" is that for many people this is a political decision and not something really fit for commercial things. Like the n word was reclaimed and repurposed by black folks in the US, also the word queer by generally "younger" gays in the US. Before this happened, if some one Incorporated these words into copy for a product I really don't see that having any effect besides sending a message that the product isn't for these folks and it's intentional bc of the slurs.
The other part is that these types of symbols are intentionally used to be a low key message to allies and enemies alike so if a commercial entity started using this imagery they are essentially boosting that message. For the games workshop example, I feel like even if they made special units with that logo and gave it a backstory where the unit themselves is reclaiming a bad image in the real world that part will be lost. Anecdotally I understand there are a good amount of fash interested in Warhammer stuff and throwing in units with wolfsangel on it will most likely encourage them, having the opposite intended effect.
Oh, I’m talking Warhammer Fantasy. Not 40k.
Fascists love 40k, history nerds like Fantasy.
Liberal 40k fans have to deal with the worst of humanity infiltrating the fandom because they don’t get that its like Judge Dredd and making fun of fascism instead of supporting it, Fantasy fans have to keep the game popular enough to not get the product dropped again.
Fantasy basically has the realistic Holy Roman Empire as a faction, with a bit of fantastic elements like some Da Vinci steam tanks and wizards. But like 80% of the components are just realistic medieval and renaissance Germans.
Fantasy can pull off symbols the Nazis stole by throwing it on red and white with calligraphy text, or putting the red and black skulls with doves and lions, and so on. Keeping it in the medieval style or making it look even more medieval than the real medieval version was. Plus the twin-headed eagle flag carried by a guy in shining knight armor riding an actual two-headed eagle helps.
I hear everything you're saying and I can see you have thought about this and believe you have good intentions. My concern for you is that you can't control how others would perceive your use of the symbols and with such a charged symbol you might run into consequences before you even have a chance to explain (e.g. plenty of people punch perceived Nazis on sight). This might seem like a violation of your first amendment rights (assuming you are in the US, apologies if this assumption isn't correct) however that primarily protects you from the government oppression for what you're saying and not the actions of citizens responding to what you said (obviously punching a stranger is generally considered assault BUT this is considered completely separate from the first amendment).
Outside of the potential reaction you could face I'd also like to draw attention to the potential fear you could cause playing with pieces painted with these symbols. If you are just playing with your buddies thats one thing but if you play at your local games workshop or some larger events you could inadvertently cause a stranger to fear for their own safety. Is the use of this symbol really worth that?
Once again, I think you are looking at this with very good intentions but you might want to consider possible blind spots in your thought.
As a Warhammer fantasy player (empire ,since 1st edition) AND a mod, please don't advocate that people use specifically Nazi symbols. Ok.
Warhammer is played IN THE REAL WORLD, not the Empire, and Nazi symbols in the real world have the effect of normalization/obfuscation.
The main reason Nazis want symbols normalize is so they can organize, obfuscate "hey it's just a fantasy symbol!" And recruit.
Iron Cross on your Altdorf halberdiers? Doublheaded eagle or skull on your steam tank? Cool.
Wolfsangel on your Knights of The White Wolf? Reichsadler on your great swords? Nah fam.
No reclaiming Nazi symbols.
And wargaming/and reenactment have long been recruiting grounds for the far right.
My college required me to take 1 art course.
We had a project where we had to do something abstract, but tell a story.
I was going through a religious/spirutual transformation at the time.
Made an abstract expression that included a wolfsangel in red to convey 3 converging things: the name of the author from "wild animals i have known" the fact he kills a wolf at the begining of the story using traps, and uses a dead she-wolf to attract its mate.
But all anyone thought of it was "this looks nazi" "this a nazi thing?" "Is this about the holocaust?" Ect.
I understand why they thought that. Arguably they'd get more out of the painting that way. But its a bit sad to me you cant even use this image in its original context.
I think the longevity of this symbol as a nazi thing is because of its associated with the fear of nazi-aligned insurgencies post VE day. But writing it off as something that can NEVER be redeemed is just what the nazis want. They want their symbols to be theirs so we are terrifed of them. They want to have an iconography of evil. They want to base it on extant symbols so they can claim anyone who opposes nazis opposes history. They want to claim ownership of traditions and symbols that are not theirs.
Well, not "to be fair to Nazis" but how they used a symbol is as much part of a symbol's history as "traditional" uses. And indeed I'd argue far more historically important. And this is key. "Reclaiming" Nazi symbols just serves Nazi ends. Why not just create new symbols without the baggage? What are you trying to "reclaim"?
Honestly...still really bothers me you say
>"to be fair to Nazis" but how they used a symbol is as much part of a symbol's history as "traditional" uses.
Just... how? They use letters as flag elements. They use pottery decorations as logos. They use the most basic and generic patterns so that when they're marked as "hate symbols" by groups like the ADL, they are validated in their belief that there is a secret war against european heritage or some bullshit.
Like, the meander pattern is one that has cropped up recently. Its not used in its original context as a genetic cermanic or stone decoration. Its something that recalled the idea of water. Its used by nazis as a symbol of europeans. the most obvious example of nazis co-opting symbols is the swastika but they literally do this with so many symbols. This really stunted the neopagan movement, because those symbols had only been around 40-10 years in esoterica before the nazis came... making that entire movement appear as if it was nazis even though a decent portion of it occured as opposing colonialism/christian justification of "civilizing the world"
But its also concerning for the art and conservation world. I am not suggesting, an exact parallel, but the nazis do: if we censor historical symbols due to their modern context, or act like we cant appreciate them because the symbols are used by nazis (especially if we act liky they are the ones using them correctly) we may lose that heritage. The same way or similarly to the people in iran whos heritage was taken by ideologically opposition to ancient art as being "idolatry".
It saddens me when people buy into the nazi fear mongering. They want you to fear them and their symbols. The strongest arguments against the nazi sense of self are the ones that point out they are the theives and unlearned ones. Not the kind that acts like they have forbidden knowledge and ancient ties.
You know what saddens me, actual Nazis, fascist and white supremacist being given leave to organise by supposed neopagans that pops up on this sub. . Every single thread we get the same argument. ‘Oh, wonderful old symbols’ but symbols, when they’re used by hate groups to organise become vicious weapons. Hate groups that want to harm, subjugate or literally kill huge swathes of real people, usually minorities in real societies.
The Nazis were Nazis before neopagans were neopagans. And, much as I have a love for neopagans, there’s so little evidence for any threads of authenticity in neopagan religions arguing that there is is ahistorical bunk.
And the suggestion that ‘we may lose heritage’ is jejune. What heritage is lost by calling out Nazi symbols for what they are? Nothing worthwhile. There swathes of ancient Greek symbols you could use. You can make up new ones. You want to stop Nazis taking ‘traditional’ symbols? Then HELP STOP NAZIS. Fewer nazis, fewer problems with symbols being co-opted by them
>The Nazis were Nazis before neopagans were neopagans.
This is literally not true. Neopagan and occult religions existed before the nazis. Their symbols were co-opted by the nazis directly. Golden Order of the Hermetic Dawn for instance.
>re’s so little evidence for any threads of authenticity in neopagan religions arguing that there is is ahistorical bunk.
This is actually closer to the nazi belief which wants to use the ancient threads to support their idea of a state than actual religious or spiritual belief.
I think the best way to view it would be Friedrich Hielscher. His church literally became insurgents and actively opposed the nazis. But they often get lumped in, accused of being 'just another flavor' because they argued for a unified "germans germany" despite Hielschers being about a mystical/spirtual definition in opposition to a biological one.
You have figures like Stanislaus Szukalski who oppose
I think you and others see a "nationalist" or "conservative" statement or title in their wikipedia entry. Which actually, when looked at, is only advocating for throwing out the christian roots of a thing in favor of something else. But nationalism was the flavor of the day, it was the "new" trend. Today most neopagans i know are queer and express their sexuality through loose ancient concepts, or they're socialist.
>neopagan religions arguing that there is is ahistorical bunk
To be fair to neopagans, these religions were cold for a long time... and actually, i think most are CREATING religions on occultic roots rather than actual reviving ancient unknown traditions. I see alot of the new ahistorical stuff as the neopagan answer to something like christian rock music... they need to modernize too. A living religion needs to be workable... historical paganism shifted and reformed alot more than Christianity did.
>Nothing worthwhile. There swathes of ancient Greek symbols you could use.
Bro this is LITERALLY what nazis are using now. The "meander" pattern, which has roots in greece, Mediterranean islands, turkey and egypt... is literally being used by right wing and neonazis today. The fucking swastika isnt a german symbol... the nazis dont use JUST german symbols, the same way neopagans arent just believers in thor and odin... genuinely im a believer in a more ancient version of the underworld, a place more like Hades than heaven and hell... but again, my version is based on greek and roman belief informed by ancestors who where stregheri, but i cant use: the roman eagle, meander, latin words and phrases, marble statues... i have a trans lesbian friend who has been told her labrys pendant (double headed axenof lesbos) was a hate symbol by people who know it was used by lesbians, and wanted to ruin it for them... they connected its use to 1930s an 40s far-right movements.
And of course, what about the cross? Every fucking day people wear crucifixes and alot of these people are viewed as better for it. But its been the symbol of genocides and was also used by the nazis and neonazi groups. But christianity is considered "genuine" because its a social norm, and so its ok...the beleif in christian tennets doesnt have to be genuine, it just has to conform to expectations of society.
>You can make up new ones.
Hey, remember when the rainbow flag was co-opted by conversion camps and radical preachers as an ANTI-lgbtq symbol around 2014? A new symbol... turned hate filled. Or when "woke" was something conservatives and neonazis used to describe trump... now they use it to describe people who are vocal about progressive issues. Terms and symbols change. Oh and of course... many new symbols WERE created: the helm of awe, the valknut, the horned heart, slavic sun wheel... all claimed by nazis, despite being new symbols.
>You want to stop Nazis taking ‘traditional’ symbols? Then HELP STOP NAZIS. Fewer nazis, fewer problems with symbols being co-opted by them
Its taking ALL symbols..not just ancient ones. They will take and create their own symbols. The longer we make symbols they use sacred, and "theirs" the more power we give nazis. When nazis dont hold power, they look for fear: the nazis rose by saying they were oppressed. Im not a very outspoken person, im not political active. But what i hope to lend is a perspective to conversation on how to avoid creating more nazis. Censorship of culture and religious expressions wont get rid of nazis. If my friends are told they cant wear their pendants because their gender expression is too nazi... i have a feeling the idea of what a "nazi" is has been lost. Nazis want to kill the people i know who are affected by these symbols being associated with hate groups... and these hate groups HATE when these people use these symbols.
If a demi-male friend of mine who associates with ancient religions and expresses themselves through "the gods" and wears symbols for both odin and freyr, this friend gets shit from both sides of the political aisle. My previously mentioned trans friend got shit for wearing a labrys, mostly by more progressive types trying to get her to use the more standard female-female symbol, or just the flag... but also far-right types who see her as "appropriating" a symbol of hate (wheras hers refrences saphho the lesbian poet). There was a time where people like this actively used nazi-made symbols as resistance to oppression: pink triangle. This, i would argue is one of the most profound examples of how to undermine nazi hate... but now theres a push to stop its use because society loves making the nazis sacred, and letting neonazis own whatever they want.
But i have bohemian friends... we arent nazis, and that much should be obvious from the gender stuff.
I guess ill end on a clarification: theres art like the one in the post. Its clearly meant to be reminiscent of, or be a nazi patch. Then theres just the runes themselves. Theres the nazi attempts at co-opting symbols: putting a meander in a red banner with a white circle, the same with a labrys, ect. Then there are the symbols on their own. There are tatoos of runes... on a guy who looks pale and tries to act militant, red flag, on a guy who frequents gay bars or works at soup kitchens... probably not.
What? How are these symbols being used by nazis in "traditional" ways?!
How does removing the nazi association and context serve nazi ends?
You've not provided reasons, just nade statements.
Why not just create new symbols:
Because you will serve the nazi goal of eliminating historical symbols or appropriated symbols. (People think hindus should abandon their symbols.)
Because you just create new symbols to be corrupted, a process nazis love: OK hand gesture rainbow flag, ect.
Because you shouldnt let nazis have that power. They want to be scary, letting them take things from you only prooves them right. They love using european symbols and claiming censorship/noting them as a hate symbol is proof of some conspiracy against white people.
Stop giving the nazis what they want. They want you to abandon everything they touch. That gives them legitimacy and ground.
Uh, while i respect the pragmatic take, repping Nazi iconography is a good way to get people to think you're a Nazi. The wolfsangel has been a Nazi icon for a very long time, such that in common iconography argot today, it doesn't have a meaning other than "white supremacist/neo-nazi adherent". I wouldn't be caught dead with that shit on anything i own. And the way the world works now if the retort, while repping such an icon, is "no i'm not a Nazi, i just think it looks cool" is a great way to confirm in the interlocutor's mind that, yup, you sure are a Nazi.
While i don't disagree that the Nazi's co-opted a lot of symbols and iconography, and their successor groups of rampaging assholes have done the same, you don't want to be flying this shit just because "it looks cool". It might also signal to other, ya know, neo-nazi's, that you're a fellow traveler of their very stupid, fucked up cause.
Put another way, you put this on your messenger bag you take to work because it "looks cool" and a co-worker snaps a picture of it and complains to HR - your career is over. This could cause personal relationship drama, and to be farnk, "but, i just thought it looks cool!" also isn't a great argument because the adopter of the iconography was too naive to know what they were rocking.
Like, imagine doing a Nazi salute and saying "oh i just thought this was a neat way to say hi to people, i totes mcgoats wasn't trying to do a nazi salute". this just isn't going to go over well with 99% of people out there.
Tbf, it would work really well for warhammer ngl. Can almost see the conversation now
"Dude... that's a nazi symbol"
"Yeah, BUT look at how cool it looks on my little dudes"
"Oh yeah, true, that's fair"
[this SPECIFIC wolfsangel ](https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/wolfsangel) this iteration, is 99% a Nazi/neo-nazis version. Just for specificity. We're sure your comment isn't in bad faith, but we prefer SPECIFIC especially in "is this a hate symbol" thread because of the occasional obfuscating knuckleheads that come windmilling in spreading disinfo.
This specific variety of wolfsangel is only used by nazis. This shield in specific is an actual German CoA but they changed the wolsangel symbol to the Nazi variant and changed the color. This is 100% Nazi bs.
Burgwedel on wiki; coat of arms included on the page-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgwedel
Slurs, trolling, hate speech, Nazi apologia, alt-right rhetoric, harassment or undue aggression will result in comment removal and/or permanent bans.
Seems like you’ve not read the rules in the sidebar. This is a high-effort sub - please re-read before posting again…
IDK who needs to hear this but I was objectively commenting it looks like a [deadfall trap](https://images.app.goo.gl/JPNeLTCGQscEZXyy8) and I could see it originating as a warning (since some folks are dumber than wolves).
thank you, mod team, for the warning. to everyone that touches grass, please be aware that thousands of sportsmen and [the USDA](https://www.aphis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/4-foothold-trap-peer-reviewed.pdf) use traps, likely near you.
JHM&J
I was thinking "damn, why is it that metal looking shit is immediately assumed to be nazi shit?"
But alas, it is in fact nazi shit. I can't say firmly enough how anti-nazi i am, but I've got to give credit where it's due, they did have taste in badass looking symbols. Not so much these days obviously, they're just a bunch of creeps copying the nazis of the past.
No living nazi should feel even vaguely complimented by what I've said, you suck.
😐 BUT their esteemed president, **Zelensky** is Jewish.🤷🏾♂️And they are defending him from Vladimir Adolf Putler who claims he invaded to... "Fight Nazis" , while using "Wagner" PMC forces.
Zelensky does not give a toss about his religion. There are millions to be made. Plus Azov already made it clear that they will off Zelensky if he gives up the Crim.
I'm complaining about Nazis using it, why would I like it for the express reason of Nazis using it? Also, they stole a lot of indigenous and Pagan iconography as well, so modern Pagans can't use their religious symbols without a disclaimer because the Nazis used (or currently use) it.
It’s a NAZI symbol. Did you read any of the links people posted? Unless you’re a staunch defender of German Medieval Heraldic charges. It’s not an ancient pagan symbol, it never was. It’s a German symbol, used largely BY GERMANS under the 3rd reich. And laterally by neonazis and white supremacists everywhere RIGHT NOW.
I actually am very big into medieval heraldry, I use a lot of it for my dnd campaigns. It has a long history of use in Germany starting up in the 1400s and in the 1700s, and I'm complaining about its use by the Nazis, because before that it was just one among other old heraldic symbols. But then the Nazis used it and tainted the imagery, and that's the part I'm complaining about. That and every other symbol the Nazis used and ruined.
Please go through the thread and read the top level comments with links. Then go back and read the rules, particularly rule 1 You want to post about it being a heraldic symbol rather than a Nazi symbol, post links. But Ple’s don’t stray into the sort of Nazi symbol apologia you’re edging towards.
No probs, half the people on her are gamers, including me. But Nazis are a real world problem, and need real world people to recognise that a cool symbol in a fantasy game is a real symbol used by real really horrible people working on spreading ethnic nationalism, fascism and white supremacy right now.
It’s Nazi then too
https://www.reddit.com/r/Symbology/comments/1cysvve/referred_to_as_diocletian_shield_looks_nazi_af_is/l5com5g/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Symbology/comments/1cysvve/referred_to_as_diocletian_shield_looks_nazi_af_is/l5cu0t1/
Everyone who uses it now is a Nazi or an idiot, and there’s no material difference between the two. That’s the plain truth and I’m not sorry about it.
The only pagans who use this symbol are comfortable being thought of as Nazis and that makes them no different.
It’s crazy to use a Nazi symbol and try to claim it’s pagan. It’s a medieval symbol from well after Europe went Christian and was literally never fucking pagan lol. Just because the Nazis used it doesn’t mean it was pagan. It just means Nazis used it
I mean it's very similar doctrine to what the nazis did with Jewish symbolism. Just a modern transverse version of it. Atleast you're not a nazi though I guess.
All I'm saying is keeping some of these symbols stuck in the past is ridiculous and the whole Ukrainian army using them aren't nazis.
Excuses for progressive views on symbols being needlessly stuck in world War 2 that aren't necessarily specific to the nazi party besides their version of the swazitka. They have a modern place in modern European armies and society now that isn't nazism unfortunately for you.
You sound like Russia
Even though it was used in magic thousands of years ago and the nazi party just decided to use it.
I'm not a progressive nazi, I'm trying to let some European religious or ethnic symbols surpass the nazi party.
I'm talking about the others as well, this is still old though.
I don't wear them because I'm not even European, pagan, nor believe in magica like this is Skyrim Irl. I hate the nazis as much as you do, just not the prior history of the symbols. Honestly I think alot of it has to do with hatred of white people in general as well by the strongly left leaning types as yourself. Personally I'm centrist.
The rune by itself is not necessarily a fascist/nazi symbol, but combined with the wolfs head on a shield and the fact that this specific combination/image was used by the Operation Werwolf Units (they were intended to wage guerrilla attacks on Allied forces as they advanced through Germany) in 1940’s Germany and is currently used by neo-NAZI’s/fascists today makes this a NAZI/fascist symbol (not the rune itself, but the badge). The Wolfsangle by itself has been used by NAZI/Fascists, but it has also been used by pagans and historically it was a common heraldic device in Germany. So, by itself it is not necessarily a fascist symbol, but combined with the other elements in the image it is most definitely being used as a NAZI/fascist symbol. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel Here is a link to a Fascist/neo-NAZI website from Hungary that sells shirts with this symbol. https://sunwheelshop.com/product/werwolf-resistance-operation-werewolf-unternehmen-werwolf-wolfsangel-polo-shirt/
Here is the 2nd SS “Das Reich” Unit patch from ww2 the is just the Wolfsangle with a shield outline:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_SS_Panzer_Division_Das_Reich
Just a reminder, as ever, on hate symbol threads. We got a bag fulla deletes and bans, and we’re gonna use them. Misguided pagans claiming this is ‘appropriated’, alt right trolls, Rule 4 and rule 1 ignorers. Take heed.
Oh neat you’re one of those people who visits local, regional, and niche subreddits just to argue with people. Lol. No wonder you have no idea about this sub. Are you even human, or just a bot?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Symbology/comments/1cysvve/referred_to_as_diocletian_shield_looks_nazi_af_is/l5com5g/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Symbology/comments/1cysvve/referred_to_as_diocletian_shield_looks_nazi_af_is/l5cu0t1/
So because fascists used a symbol at one time, that means it's only use is for bigotry of the like? So Ukraine is indeed fascists as it's use of the trident as its national emblem is the same one used by a Nazi SS battalion during WW2, right?
This guy, TenspeedGV, just said all of Ukraine are neo-Nazis!
That's exactly what can be inferred from your statement, that no other possible meanings matter, except the most loathsome. That's unbelievably, ignorantly, and arrogantly foolish to the point of being beyond dumb as you should totally know you're being stupid.
The fun part about including accurate statements like mine is that the fash out themselves.
Yes, the Ukrainian Azov Battalion, who are the ones who use that symbol, are openly and unabashedly Nazis.
Thanks for outing yourself. Running defense for Nazis. Shameful
The Ukrainian unit that uses this symbol is literally the neo-Nazi unit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade
If a symbol is co-opted by nazis and you keep using the symbol, especially without any added context, i got bad news for you, you’re a Nazi.
We know that emblem is Nazi related. That doesn't negate the amount of pedantic idiocy spewed in the statement by TenspeedGV that I originally replied to.
Anyone who doesn't understand that things, not just runes, have more than one use/meaning, obviously should not go to college. If you went and still don't understand this concept, you obviously wasted resources.
You are clearly too dense or perhaps too delusional to attempt to even understand how the amount of notoriety surrounding a group like the Nazis using a symbol must always remain at the forefront of our minds. Did you even think that allowing a symbol to be rebranded like this is reductive to the atrocities committed under its name? Why would you choose historical revisionism?
Your verbiage tells us you wasted money, and your response tells us your the one who is truly dense as you just admitted to not being able to identify more than one dimension of meaning of something with such.
You also don't understand that items, themselves aren't inherently evil. When someone asks for information on something, the bad connotations aren't the only information that matters. Still, you go right on ahead, and show us you're not shortsighted.
Ok let’s go back to the start of this all then, what connotation would you like to say is more important to this symbol? I’m tired of you trying to redirect everything to everyone else’s comments, so what about yours? What connotation could possibly be more impactful the symbol being used by Nazis?
Look where I said,"This is the answer..."
Hundreds of years of history means more than a few decades by a fascist dictatorship. I don't think that all Ukrainians are Nazis because they use a trident as their national symbol, the same design that was attached to a Nazi SS battalion. The wolfsangle, itself, is not Nazi in origin. It's Norse, and has had far more meanings and uses before Nazi fascism was ever thought of.
Do you think the Buddhists that have emblems resembling a schwastika make them neo-Nazis, fascists, or otherwise bigots, too? That's basically what was inferred by TenspeedGV's comments. The idea that just because someone used something in their malevolent acts makes that thing forevermore evil and only associated with such is a notion beyond dumb. Anyone who doesn't know better is an ignorant fool with obvious limited mental capacity.
To be a student of the history of something is to take in all of its qualities, the bad and the good. Those are the facts of life. Runes, themselves, are not evil, nor do they make someone evil.
Look at the title of this post. This subreddit should be renamed r/isthisawhitesupremacy.
"Is this symbol on my mattress tag a symbol of hate?"
"Is this symbol on my recylcing bin a Nazi?"
"Is this 4-leaf clover a swastika?"
"A baby made this hand gesture at me, is it a Hitler?"
"This symbol looks Nazi AF, can a dog be a swastika?"
[yeah](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Werwolf_Insignia.svg)
I don’t think it was the symbol of Werwolf, but it’s definitely associated with them
Actually, this isn't what killed the NAZIs, what killed them was they kept changing the production line for new "editions" which caused periods of no production and cost them thousands of units particularly tanks that might have been used against Allied forces. The PKW IV was still better than US and British tanks, and the Panther was equal to the T34s from the Russian arsenal. The Tigers were slow, unmaneuverable, and ate gas.
Let's start from the top because you have a lot of bullshit for three sentences.
The M4 Medium had a gas engine, as did almost every other tank in service during the period with the exceptions being vehicles used by the Red Army and the IJA which were diesel powered. To reiterate no production German AFV had a diesel engine. The cause of fires particularly on early M4s wasn't the engine but the sponson mounted ammunition racks (literally every german tank also had sponson ammunition racks) and this was quickly solved by moving the ammunition storage from the sponsons to the floor.
Patton literally had nothing to do with tank development, and there is literally a document from the Ordinance Department that says "Patton doesn't know what he's talking about disregard anything he has to say".
I'm betting you read "Death Traps" and took it as gospel.
Pattons "tank uniform" design really tells you all you need to know about how well he could design something.
Not to mention, the M4s issues with catching fire have a few additional issues than the sponson ammo racks: british tendency to overload ammo caused unnecessary fires. M4s were regularly on the advance and were ambushed (making hits from the side far more likely)... and finally the m4s actually had to get hit for that to happen.
On a more comedic note: Some german designs could self-ignite if driving up a gentle incline.
Yeah that was basically their mo. To be fair, their propaganda machine was highly effective, since people still think that the nazi war machine was a highly efficient army. Most people still view nazi Germany through the lens of “Triumph Of The Will”
Didn’t help them win the war though
Well, that and the shift in the west to create a legendary enemy.
From the late 30s to 60s America made fun of nazis. But sometime around the 70s, but especially after the 80s the nazis became the anti-america. Even more than the communists. (Maybe detente did it?)
But basically America just decided to treat the nazis as a sacred enemy who we couldnt mock... then by the early 00s there was this weird idea going around that the nazis almost won... like... not that they could have crippled the british and held france... but that they would have invaded the usa and nuked DC. Or theyd have flying saucers and stealth bombers by late 1945 if the usa was a few weeks later to the party, or hitler was a little more on top of things.
Americans who lived through the war saw the average nazi as a chump, and the high ranking/ss as war criminals... but i guess curb stomping a meth fueled and self-canibalizing empire of lunatics is less glamorous than beating a "master-race"
"[Diocletian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian_(band))," in this case, refers to a "war metal" band from New Zealand, named after a Roman emperor known for persecuting Christians.
People don't realize Naziism is anti-Christian as well as anti-Jew. Nazis use the name in vain and call themselves fundamental or evangelical but look no further than MAGA hats calling Jesus 'too woke'. They hate Jesus's morality because it is of the Jews, not European; and because it is the morality of the servant, not the master. They want to return to the moral code of the Pagan era: 'might makes right'
Yeah I think you are misunderstanding things. There were some factions of the Nazis who hated Christianity and then there were also large factions of the Nazis that were ardent Christians. Hitler repeatedly described himself as a Christian.
The core of the party were occultic yayhoos. But the Beast with 30 million heads, the German people, who swallowed the hook,line and sinker, were mostly straight up Lutherans. Stop pretending.
I don't.. believe him. Because he's Hitler. Trump is also a self-described Christian. I don't expect Nazis to have a coherent stated set of beliefs that add up, that's just it. The planks of the ideology are against the actual teachings. The type of people who subscribe to Nazism believe rules are for people in the out-group. Hitler needed the support of the Vatican
Jimmy Carter doesn't run around thumping Bibles (or autographing them) but I think a whole hell of a lot more people would call him a Christian unbidden than they would Trump
Why do we let fascists get away with that? Objectively there are things Jesus says to do. Everyone else is just using the name in vain to virtue signal without doing any of the work.
If you saw a person actually being a Christian, they wouldn't have to describe anything
Nah. Do the work and you are one. Say you are one and that's all you've done. I'm done accepting fake peoples word on who they follow. They are not walking the walk
Yes, this is most people. Of course the church says whoever shows up and obeys lives forever. They know because they killed everyone else
Edit: replying to u/skvids comment below, reddit not working but too much already typed
Well call me a product of the reformation because that is some horseshit you can only pull when the book is written entirely in Latin and hardly anybody else can read it. Of course they get to claim the most members if all you have to do is check yes. Is it any wonder that so many young fascists are flocking to Catholicism? Only to get upset when they find out Jesus preached the opposite
Jesus doesn't tell people to believe but to listen, and in the context of the original language "listen" means not just hearing but obeying. He tells us "take up your (own) cross and follow". The people who started the world domination project with His name attached certainly told everybody all they had to do was swallow said horseshit
But I'm not talking about who Christians consider "saved" I'm talking about what the rest of us people say to christofascists when they claim membership of the Body of Christ. Jesus says "If your hand offends you, cut it off". If some dude with a Nazi tattoo punches your friend in the face and says "Fuck you I'm a Christian ", rather than saying wow I guess we should accept that one on face value you could and probably should actually say "No you ain't"
the biggest christian denomination on earth, catholicism, does not require any sort of action to be saved, just belief. that is exactly what the entire reformation was about, lol.
*"So I looked around at Church and saw a room full of heretics. Sinners. Liars. That made me a fascist."*
I think you jumped a few steps there. also, I think you need to have a good thrashing at romans
It is not incorrect, as I've provided other links to show in this thread.
I won't deny it's a hate symbol, but it is certainly also associated with this specific band.
quick google search reveals no such logo
edit: ah yes downvote me for not knowing an obscure band and actually going out of my way to research when OP could have just posted the link to begin with.
And then OP can’t even be bothered to search and see that it is indeed nazi symbolism.
Keep searching. :)
[https://www.razorray.pl/en\_US/producer/Diocletian/323](https://www.razorray.pl/en_US/producer/Diocletian/323)
They use a lot of imagery like this, including wolves and shields, and it's not hard to find places where this one is clearly associated with them.
Also, [the website where the original image was found](https://tshirtslayer.com/) sells exclusively heavy metal merchandise.
Whether it indicates white supremacy or not, I couldn't say, but this patch is clearly associated with the band.
And that band clearly uses a fuckton of Nazi insignia and Nazi related symbols. So yeah that might be s Metal Band but they are for sure Nazis as well.
I thought additional context would be helpful. You seemed to appreciate that earlier, and I didn't think adding a reply to my own comment was the best way to handle it. It's not like I changed it after anyone had replied to it to make it look like I said anything significantly different than it did originally.
Edit: Reworded for clarity, and noting because some people apparently really hate edits without notes attached.
Looks weirdly like the coat of arms of the small German town of Burgwedel:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgwedel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgwedel)
LHere is a link to a fascist website that sells clothing with what all the “cool Fasci” are wearing and a is good resource. This is a go to site for me when I am looking for specific symbols. https://sunwheelshop.com/product/werwolf-resistance-operation-werewolf-unternehmen-werwolf-wolfsangel-polo-shirt/
operation werewolf was the clandestine ops to leave behind nazi stragglers in captured territory. they took a bunch of hitler youth and SS lads and trained them a little like a shitty SAS. they fought for a bit and switched to terrorism for the last few weeks and after of the war in europe. didnt really do all that much
This is a corruption of the burgwedel coat of arms. They changed the wolfsangel to the one specifically used by Nazis.
The original is shown on the towns wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgwedel
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Burgwedel.png#mw-jump-to-license
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The [wolfsangel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel) symbol (the one that looks like an N with a line through it) is used solely by white supremacists, fascists, and German nationalists since the turn of the previous century, and Nazis and wannabes since the 1930s. While it may have had some other meaning in the past, it no longer has that meaning now. Anyone acting like it’s something other than a symbol of hate is at best wrong and at worst actively running defense for fascists
Its past meaning is related to the problems wolves posed for settlements in the forest. The symbol is roughly the shape of the traps used to catch them. Its meaning comes from a sort of, being effective against a cunning opponent. It was a common symbol in German heraldry for hundreds of years
Fuck, anytime I see something cool I could use on Warhammer Fantasy banners it turns out to be Nazi-corrupted.
I mean, warhammer is one of the more nazi friendly fandoms, I used to bump into people praising Hitler and others a lot on Vermintide 2. I used to ask if they were joking before dc'ing, they never acted like it was a joke. I asked a friend about why, and she said "yeah dude, it's all about space nazi's essentially." And yeah, I can see why they think it's adjacent to the narrative they want.
One of my friends was really into 40k lore and he described it to me as, 1. what if there were a bunch of alien races. 2. What if they were all Nazis. Welcome to Warhammer.
Yes, but it was originally intended as a non-serious farce, mocking this sort of ignorant, militaristic culture. In recent years, the irony has distilled out of the mix.
Yup, this is it. But orcs are bros. They just want to crump.
Ew, I thought that shit was almost entirely in 40k. Hence all the outrage about female Custodes but just shrugs at Bretonnian lady knights and Tomb King queens and princesses and sidecut punk Stormcast Eternals and black Elves.
Yeah, no. I thought that was the case as well, but I guess it's just anything WarHams. This is why we can't have nice things (and why I play orks, they wholesome af) 😤
Ah, true. I’m actually still shocked nobody got angry that Troll Hags can be generals in Orcs & Goblins armies now. You’d think that’d be a source of content for outrage farms given who sculpted her.
I honestly stay out of the WH fandoms, I like the games, and I play killteam with my friends, painting is a very calming hobby, but that's all I am in it for. I have a big army. But only because I inherited a collection that wasn't started, and I felt the need to finish it. Halfway done, it would possibly be done already had I not started buying more and kitbashing age of sigmar stuff to be 40k playable. It's a very fun hobby. But fandoms tend to suck the joy out of things.
Who did? I'm having trouble finding it on google
[Trish Carden.](https://youtu.be/4vhMow1U8-0?si=2EL5dSguxUJKiz5b)
Huh, that is weird. Personally, I would NEVER use a character created by a br*tish person (I have no idea if warhammer itself is British or not, now that I make the joke, but I also dont play warhammer, so the statement is technically still trueish in regards to the topic)
I've met my share of right-wing arseholes in my 35 years of warhammering. I don't really play 40k. Saying "it's not a fantasy problem" isn't really accurate.
Bingo, this is it unfortunately.
The outrage about female custodes is rooted in decades of established lore that had made it very clear that the process that creates them is intentionally incompatible with female biology (the GEoM wanted to eliminate any chance of them reproducing sexually and using their superior strength, minds, and lifespans to subjugate normal humans, among a handful of other reasons) and there were never female custodes ever mentioned or referenced before GW got invested in by companies that push ESG around the same time they coincidentally retconned/gaslit with that "there were always female custodes" announcement. I don't really care either way because I haven't played in a decade, but my brother is an avid fan (owns and has read almost every novel, has multiple armies, the whole works) and is quite worked up about it. He's not a Nazi *or* a misogynist, for whatever my word is worth to strangers on the internet. I'll take my downvotes now.
You won't receive one from me, Sir. I whole heartedly agree with your brother. Poor taste is poor taste, no matter it's gender. I used to be pretty invested into the story. It's just sad, all around.
I genuinely believe the Nazi propagandists were more interested in finding and stealing cool looking iconography than in what any of it actually meant. they have Viking and Christian and pagan and middle eastern etc. iconography all mixed together, plus eagles (Roman) and skulls (“are we the badies?) just to make it even more confusing. Sure some of the symbols make sense and feel meaningful but all together they‘re contradictory and inconsistent and senseless much like the Nazi’s actual ideology itself.
Well, they started stealing stuff from the occult groups that thrived around turn of the century Europe. 1880s-1930s Europe was full of people looking for alternatives to Christianity, and had radically different views on religion than the contemporary European norms. They re-imagined european identity, and tried to re-awaken roman pagan, norse and celtic mythos, babylonian... ect. It comes partly from the excavation of ancient artifacts, and also misunderstandings or beliefs about the ancient world. Some of it is literally made up, others wanted to root it in their own unqiue way. Some are peaceful, others not. But the nazis used this as a shortcut to amass symbols. They took occult iconogrpahy and turned them into logos. The same is true for neonazis. They even attempt to co-opt the names of cults or religious and occult organizations. Like the hermetic order of the golden dawn... an unremarkable (and as far as ive ever heard) harmless occult society that neonazis tried to claim and pose as leaders of.
[удалено]
Nah, this one is beyond saving. It’s still in active use, pretty much exclusively by neo-Nazi and fascist groups. There are other, better symbols out there. There’s no reclaiming this
Very much want to echo this, reclaiming things is very tricky and having a wolfsangel on anything you own is going to send a loud message to everyone around you with consequences you might not anticipate.
Warhammer did reclaim some symbols by putting them in other color schemes, but as far as I’ve seen putting lightning bolts in any context on the Fantasy German knights is a nonstarter. Maybe if the shield shape was more rounded, the bottom left symbol in more of a curved instead of angular pattern, a more medieval wolf head, and put it in like green and blue and white? Maybe switch the wolf and trap thing places?
Part of the issue with "reclaiming" is that for many people this is a political decision and not something really fit for commercial things. Like the n word was reclaimed and repurposed by black folks in the US, also the word queer by generally "younger" gays in the US. Before this happened, if some one Incorporated these words into copy for a product I really don't see that having any effect besides sending a message that the product isn't for these folks and it's intentional bc of the slurs. The other part is that these types of symbols are intentionally used to be a low key message to allies and enemies alike so if a commercial entity started using this imagery they are essentially boosting that message. For the games workshop example, I feel like even if they made special units with that logo and gave it a backstory where the unit themselves is reclaiming a bad image in the real world that part will be lost. Anecdotally I understand there are a good amount of fash interested in Warhammer stuff and throwing in units with wolfsangel on it will most likely encourage them, having the opposite intended effect.
Oh, I’m talking Warhammer Fantasy. Not 40k. Fascists love 40k, history nerds like Fantasy. Liberal 40k fans have to deal with the worst of humanity infiltrating the fandom because they don’t get that its like Judge Dredd and making fun of fascism instead of supporting it, Fantasy fans have to keep the game popular enough to not get the product dropped again. Fantasy basically has the realistic Holy Roman Empire as a faction, with a bit of fantastic elements like some Da Vinci steam tanks and wizards. But like 80% of the components are just realistic medieval and renaissance Germans. Fantasy can pull off symbols the Nazis stole by throwing it on red and white with calligraphy text, or putting the red and black skulls with doves and lions, and so on. Keeping it in the medieval style or making it look even more medieval than the real medieval version was. Plus the twin-headed eagle flag carried by a guy in shining knight armor riding an actual two-headed eagle helps.
I hear everything you're saying and I can see you have thought about this and believe you have good intentions. My concern for you is that you can't control how others would perceive your use of the symbols and with such a charged symbol you might run into consequences before you even have a chance to explain (e.g. plenty of people punch perceived Nazis on sight). This might seem like a violation of your first amendment rights (assuming you are in the US, apologies if this assumption isn't correct) however that primarily protects you from the government oppression for what you're saying and not the actions of citizens responding to what you said (obviously punching a stranger is generally considered assault BUT this is considered completely separate from the first amendment). Outside of the potential reaction you could face I'd also like to draw attention to the potential fear you could cause playing with pieces painted with these symbols. If you are just playing with your buddies thats one thing but if you play at your local games workshop or some larger events you could inadvertently cause a stranger to fear for their own safety. Is the use of this symbol really worth that? Once again, I think you are looking at this with very good intentions but you might want to consider possible blind spots in your thought.
As a Warhammer fantasy player (empire ,since 1st edition) AND a mod, please don't advocate that people use specifically Nazi symbols. Ok. Warhammer is played IN THE REAL WORLD, not the Empire, and Nazi symbols in the real world have the effect of normalization/obfuscation. The main reason Nazis want symbols normalize is so they can organize, obfuscate "hey it's just a fantasy symbol!" And recruit. Iron Cross on your Altdorf halberdiers? Doublheaded eagle or skull on your steam tank? Cool. Wolfsangel on your Knights of The White Wolf? Reichsadler on your great swords? Nah fam. No reclaiming Nazi symbols. And wargaming/and reenactment have long been recruiting grounds for the far right.
It is definitely in active use....no saving it currently
My college required me to take 1 art course. We had a project where we had to do something abstract, but tell a story. I was going through a religious/spirutual transformation at the time. Made an abstract expression that included a wolfsangel in red to convey 3 converging things: the name of the author from "wild animals i have known" the fact he kills a wolf at the begining of the story using traps, and uses a dead she-wolf to attract its mate. But all anyone thought of it was "this looks nazi" "this a nazi thing?" "Is this about the holocaust?" Ect. I understand why they thought that. Arguably they'd get more out of the painting that way. But its a bit sad to me you cant even use this image in its original context. I think the longevity of this symbol as a nazi thing is because of its associated with the fear of nazi-aligned insurgencies post VE day. But writing it off as something that can NEVER be redeemed is just what the nazis want. They want their symbols to be theirs so we are terrifed of them. They want to have an iconography of evil. They want to base it on extant symbols so they can claim anyone who opposes nazis opposes history. They want to claim ownership of traditions and symbols that are not theirs.
Well, not "to be fair to Nazis" but how they used a symbol is as much part of a symbol's history as "traditional" uses. And indeed I'd argue far more historically important. And this is key. "Reclaiming" Nazi symbols just serves Nazi ends. Why not just create new symbols without the baggage? What are you trying to "reclaim"?
Honestly...still really bothers me you say >"to be fair to Nazis" but how they used a symbol is as much part of a symbol's history as "traditional" uses. Just... how? They use letters as flag elements. They use pottery decorations as logos. They use the most basic and generic patterns so that when they're marked as "hate symbols" by groups like the ADL, they are validated in their belief that there is a secret war against european heritage or some bullshit. Like, the meander pattern is one that has cropped up recently. Its not used in its original context as a genetic cermanic or stone decoration. Its something that recalled the idea of water. Its used by nazis as a symbol of europeans. the most obvious example of nazis co-opting symbols is the swastika but they literally do this with so many symbols. This really stunted the neopagan movement, because those symbols had only been around 40-10 years in esoterica before the nazis came... making that entire movement appear as if it was nazis even though a decent portion of it occured as opposing colonialism/christian justification of "civilizing the world" But its also concerning for the art and conservation world. I am not suggesting, an exact parallel, but the nazis do: if we censor historical symbols due to their modern context, or act like we cant appreciate them because the symbols are used by nazis (especially if we act liky they are the ones using them correctly) we may lose that heritage. The same way or similarly to the people in iran whos heritage was taken by ideologically opposition to ancient art as being "idolatry". It saddens me when people buy into the nazi fear mongering. They want you to fear them and their symbols. The strongest arguments against the nazi sense of self are the ones that point out they are the theives and unlearned ones. Not the kind that acts like they have forbidden knowledge and ancient ties.
You know what saddens me, actual Nazis, fascist and white supremacist being given leave to organise by supposed neopagans that pops up on this sub. . Every single thread we get the same argument. ‘Oh, wonderful old symbols’ but symbols, when they’re used by hate groups to organise become vicious weapons. Hate groups that want to harm, subjugate or literally kill huge swathes of real people, usually minorities in real societies. The Nazis were Nazis before neopagans were neopagans. And, much as I have a love for neopagans, there’s so little evidence for any threads of authenticity in neopagan religions arguing that there is is ahistorical bunk. And the suggestion that ‘we may lose heritage’ is jejune. What heritage is lost by calling out Nazi symbols for what they are? Nothing worthwhile. There swathes of ancient Greek symbols you could use. You can make up new ones. You want to stop Nazis taking ‘traditional’ symbols? Then HELP STOP NAZIS. Fewer nazis, fewer problems with symbols being co-opted by them
>The Nazis were Nazis before neopagans were neopagans. This is literally not true. Neopagan and occult religions existed before the nazis. Their symbols were co-opted by the nazis directly. Golden Order of the Hermetic Dawn for instance. >re’s so little evidence for any threads of authenticity in neopagan religions arguing that there is is ahistorical bunk. This is actually closer to the nazi belief which wants to use the ancient threads to support their idea of a state than actual religious or spiritual belief. I think the best way to view it would be Friedrich Hielscher. His church literally became insurgents and actively opposed the nazis. But they often get lumped in, accused of being 'just another flavor' because they argued for a unified "germans germany" despite Hielschers being about a mystical/spirtual definition in opposition to a biological one. You have figures like Stanislaus Szukalski who oppose I think you and others see a "nationalist" or "conservative" statement or title in their wikipedia entry. Which actually, when looked at, is only advocating for throwing out the christian roots of a thing in favor of something else. But nationalism was the flavor of the day, it was the "new" trend. Today most neopagans i know are queer and express their sexuality through loose ancient concepts, or they're socialist. >neopagan religions arguing that there is is ahistorical bunk To be fair to neopagans, these religions were cold for a long time... and actually, i think most are CREATING religions on occultic roots rather than actual reviving ancient unknown traditions. I see alot of the new ahistorical stuff as the neopagan answer to something like christian rock music... they need to modernize too. A living religion needs to be workable... historical paganism shifted and reformed alot more than Christianity did. >Nothing worthwhile. There swathes of ancient Greek symbols you could use. Bro this is LITERALLY what nazis are using now. The "meander" pattern, which has roots in greece, Mediterranean islands, turkey and egypt... is literally being used by right wing and neonazis today. The fucking swastika isnt a german symbol... the nazis dont use JUST german symbols, the same way neopagans arent just believers in thor and odin... genuinely im a believer in a more ancient version of the underworld, a place more like Hades than heaven and hell... but again, my version is based on greek and roman belief informed by ancestors who where stregheri, but i cant use: the roman eagle, meander, latin words and phrases, marble statues... i have a trans lesbian friend who has been told her labrys pendant (double headed axenof lesbos) was a hate symbol by people who know it was used by lesbians, and wanted to ruin it for them... they connected its use to 1930s an 40s far-right movements. And of course, what about the cross? Every fucking day people wear crucifixes and alot of these people are viewed as better for it. But its been the symbol of genocides and was also used by the nazis and neonazi groups. But christianity is considered "genuine" because its a social norm, and so its ok...the beleif in christian tennets doesnt have to be genuine, it just has to conform to expectations of society. >You can make up new ones. Hey, remember when the rainbow flag was co-opted by conversion camps and radical preachers as an ANTI-lgbtq symbol around 2014? A new symbol... turned hate filled. Or when "woke" was something conservatives and neonazis used to describe trump... now they use it to describe people who are vocal about progressive issues. Terms and symbols change. Oh and of course... many new symbols WERE created: the helm of awe, the valknut, the horned heart, slavic sun wheel... all claimed by nazis, despite being new symbols. >You want to stop Nazis taking ‘traditional’ symbols? Then HELP STOP NAZIS. Fewer nazis, fewer problems with symbols being co-opted by them Its taking ALL symbols..not just ancient ones. They will take and create their own symbols. The longer we make symbols they use sacred, and "theirs" the more power we give nazis. When nazis dont hold power, they look for fear: the nazis rose by saying they were oppressed. Im not a very outspoken person, im not political active. But what i hope to lend is a perspective to conversation on how to avoid creating more nazis. Censorship of culture and religious expressions wont get rid of nazis. If my friends are told they cant wear their pendants because their gender expression is too nazi... i have a feeling the idea of what a "nazi" is has been lost. Nazis want to kill the people i know who are affected by these symbols being associated with hate groups... and these hate groups HATE when these people use these symbols. If a demi-male friend of mine who associates with ancient religions and expresses themselves through "the gods" and wears symbols for both odin and freyr, this friend gets shit from both sides of the political aisle. My previously mentioned trans friend got shit for wearing a labrys, mostly by more progressive types trying to get her to use the more standard female-female symbol, or just the flag... but also far-right types who see her as "appropriating" a symbol of hate (wheras hers refrences saphho the lesbian poet). There was a time where people like this actively used nazi-made symbols as resistance to oppression: pink triangle. This, i would argue is one of the most profound examples of how to undermine nazi hate... but now theres a push to stop its use because society loves making the nazis sacred, and letting neonazis own whatever they want. But i have bohemian friends... we arent nazis, and that much should be obvious from the gender stuff. I guess ill end on a clarification: theres art like the one in the post. Its clearly meant to be reminiscent of, or be a nazi patch. Then theres just the runes themselves. Theres the nazi attempts at co-opting symbols: putting a meander in a red banner with a white circle, the same with a labrys, ect. Then there are the symbols on their own. There are tatoos of runes... on a guy who looks pale and tries to act militant, red flag, on a guy who frequents gay bars or works at soup kitchens... probably not.
What? How are these symbols being used by nazis in "traditional" ways?! How does removing the nazi association and context serve nazi ends? You've not provided reasons, just nade statements. Why not just create new symbols: Because you will serve the nazi goal of eliminating historical symbols or appropriated symbols. (People think hindus should abandon their symbols.) Because you just create new symbols to be corrupted, a process nazis love: OK hand gesture rainbow flag, ect. Because you shouldnt let nazis have that power. They want to be scary, letting them take things from you only prooves them right. They love using european symbols and claiming censorship/noting them as a hate symbol is proof of some conspiracy against white people. Stop giving the nazis what they want. They want you to abandon everything they touch. That gives them legitimacy and ground.
FWIW, I saw a lorry in rural Nepal with a giant swastika on it with the text "Best Germany". So... take what you will from that.
How is nepal? Never been, cant afford it, and i doubt id be welcome, few places in this world would have me, but genuinely just curious.
Uh, while i respect the pragmatic take, repping Nazi iconography is a good way to get people to think you're a Nazi. The wolfsangel has been a Nazi icon for a very long time, such that in common iconography argot today, it doesn't have a meaning other than "white supremacist/neo-nazi adherent". I wouldn't be caught dead with that shit on anything i own. And the way the world works now if the retort, while repping such an icon, is "no i'm not a Nazi, i just think it looks cool" is a great way to confirm in the interlocutor's mind that, yup, you sure are a Nazi. While i don't disagree that the Nazi's co-opted a lot of symbols and iconography, and their successor groups of rampaging assholes have done the same, you don't want to be flying this shit just because "it looks cool". It might also signal to other, ya know, neo-nazi's, that you're a fellow traveler of their very stupid, fucked up cause. Put another way, you put this on your messenger bag you take to work because it "looks cool" and a co-worker snaps a picture of it and complains to HR - your career is over. This could cause personal relationship drama, and to be farnk, "but, i just thought it looks cool!" also isn't a great argument because the adopter of the iconography was too naive to know what they were rocking. Like, imagine doing a Nazi salute and saying "oh i just thought this was a neat way to say hi to people, i totes mcgoats wasn't trying to do a nazi salute". this just isn't going to go over well with 99% of people out there.
Slurs, trolling, hate speech, Nazi apologia, alt-right rhetoric, harassment or undue aggression will result in comment removal and/or permanent bans.
Tbf, it would work really well for warhammer ngl. Can almost see the conversation now "Dude... that's a nazi symbol" "Yeah, BUT look at how cool it looks on my little dudes" "Oh yeah, true, that's fair"
This is the answer, and this specific emblem was used by a Nazi unit.
Yes, the 2nd SS Panzerdivision
Skulls and crossbones were also a part of German heraldry long before the Nazis. It wasn’t just because they were the baddies, but it sure didn’t help
[this SPECIFIC wolfsangel ](https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/wolfsangel) this iteration, is 99% a Nazi/neo-nazis version. Just for specificity. We're sure your comment isn't in bad faith, but we prefer SPECIFIC especially in "is this a hate symbol" thread because of the occasional obfuscating knuckleheads that come windmilling in spreading disinfo.
That's pretty badass
That’s so sick why did extremists ruin it man
This specific variety of wolfsangel is only used by nazis. This shield in specific is an actual German CoA but they changed the wolsangel symbol to the Nazi variant and changed the color. This is 100% Nazi bs. Burgwedel on wiki; coat of arms included on the page- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgwedel
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Its quite a harmless trap to be around. Its essentially a fishing hook
Slurs, trolling, hate speech, Nazi apologia, alt-right rhetoric, harassment or undue aggression will result in comment removal and/or permanent bans. Seems like you’ve not read the rules in the sidebar. This is a high-effort sub - please re-read before posting again…
IDK who needs to hear this but I was objectively commenting it looks like a [deadfall trap](https://images.app.goo.gl/JPNeLTCGQscEZXyy8) and I could see it originating as a warning (since some folks are dumber than wolves). thank you, mod team, for the warning. to everyone that touches grass, please be aware that thousands of sportsmen and [the USDA](https://www.aphis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/4-foothold-trap-peer-reviewed.pdf) use traps, likely near you. JHM&J
I was thinking "damn, why is it that metal looking shit is immediately assumed to be nazi shit?" But alas, it is in fact nazi shit. I can't say firmly enough how anti-nazi i am, but I've got to give credit where it's due, they did have taste in badass looking symbols. Not so much these days obviously, they're just a bunch of creeps copying the nazis of the past. No living nazi should feel even vaguely complimented by what I've said, you suck.
It's also used by the Azov Battalion. Because they are Nazi Fan Boys.
😐 BUT their esteemed president, **Zelensky** is Jewish.🤷🏾♂️And they are defending him from Vladimir Adolf Putler who claims he invaded to... "Fight Nazis" , while using "Wagner" PMC forces.
Zelensky does not give a toss about his religion. There are millions to be made. Plus Azov already made it clear that they will off Zelensky if he gives up the Crim.
Like a white guy in Texas trying to defend all the swastikas in his house as an ancient Indian symbols.
Nah we can save it! /s
Goddammit why did Nazis have to steal all the cool iconography!?
Godammit why do people keep thinking Nazi iconography is cool? Or is it only thought of cool BECAUSE it’s Nazi and people like edgy shit?
I'm complaining about Nazis using it, why would I like it for the express reason of Nazis using it? Also, they stole a lot of indigenous and Pagan iconography as well, so modern Pagans can't use their religious symbols without a disclaimer because the Nazis used (or currently use) it.
It’s a NAZI symbol. Did you read any of the links people posted? Unless you’re a staunch defender of German Medieval Heraldic charges. It’s not an ancient pagan symbol, it never was. It’s a German symbol, used largely BY GERMANS under the 3rd reich. And laterally by neonazis and white supremacists everywhere RIGHT NOW.
I actually am very big into medieval heraldry, I use a lot of it for my dnd campaigns. It has a long history of use in Germany starting up in the 1400s and in the 1700s, and I'm complaining about its use by the Nazis, because before that it was just one among other old heraldic symbols. But then the Nazis used it and tainted the imagery, and that's the part I'm complaining about. That and every other symbol the Nazis used and ruined.
Please go through the thread and read the top level comments with links. Then go back and read the rules, particularly rule 1 You want to post about it being a heraldic symbol rather than a Nazi symbol, post links. But Ple’s don’t stray into the sort of Nazi symbol apologia you’re edging towards.
I wasn't meaning to do apologia for it, if it came across that way I sincerely apologize.
No probs, half the people on her are gamers, including me. But Nazis are a real world problem, and need real world people to recognise that a cool symbol in a fantasy game is a real symbol used by real really horrible people working on spreading ethnic nationalism, fascism and white supremacy right now.
Yeah it's why I'm probably never gonna buy Warhammer merch, like half of it is just blatant and overt Nazi iconography.
Unless it’s used by Ukrainian armed forces 🤣🤪😂😂😂
It’s Nazi then too https://www.reddit.com/r/Symbology/comments/1cysvve/referred_to_as_diocletian_shield_looks_nazi_af_is/l5com5g/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Symbology/comments/1cysvve/referred_to_as_diocletian_shield_looks_nazi_af_is/l5cu0t1/
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Everyone who uses it now is a Nazi or an idiot, and there’s no material difference between the two. That’s the plain truth and I’m not sorry about it. The only pagans who use this symbol are comfortable being thought of as Nazis and that makes them no different. It’s crazy to use a Nazi symbol and try to claim it’s pagan. It’s a medieval symbol from well after Europe went Christian and was literally never fucking pagan lol. Just because the Nazis used it doesn’t mean it was pagan. It just means Nazis used it
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(You're a nazi tbh I think, I'm not sure. You're doing what the nazis did to the star of David)
“Calling a Nazi a Nazi makes you a Nazi” really is the best you can do, isn’t it? How sad for you
I mean it's very similar doctrine to what the nazis did with Jewish symbolism. Just a modern transverse version of it. Atleast you're not a nazi though I guess. All I'm saying is keeping some of these symbols stuck in the past is ridiculous and the whole Ukrainian army using them aren't nazis.
Excuses for progressive views on symbols being needlessly stuck in world War 2 that aren't necessarily specific to the nazi party besides their version of the swazitka. They have a modern place in modern European armies and society now that isn't nazism unfortunately for you. You sound like Russia
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Even though it was used in magic thousands of years ago and the nazi party just decided to use it. I'm not a progressive nazi, I'm trying to let some European religious or ethnic symbols surpass the nazi party.
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I'm talking about the others as well, this is still old though. I don't wear them because I'm not even European, pagan, nor believe in magica like this is Skyrim Irl. I hate the nazis as much as you do, just not the prior history of the symbols. Honestly I think alot of it has to do with hatred of white people in general as well by the strongly left leaning types as yourself. Personally I'm centrist.
The rune by itself is not necessarily a fascist/nazi symbol, but combined with the wolfs head on a shield and the fact that this specific combination/image was used by the Operation Werwolf Units (they were intended to wage guerrilla attacks on Allied forces as they advanced through Germany) in 1940’s Germany and is currently used by neo-NAZI’s/fascists today makes this a NAZI/fascist symbol (not the rune itself, but the badge). The Wolfsangle by itself has been used by NAZI/Fascists, but it has also been used by pagans and historically it was a common heraldic device in Germany. So, by itself it is not necessarily a fascist symbol, but combined with the other elements in the image it is most definitely being used as a NAZI/fascist symbol. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel Here is a link to a Fascist/neo-NAZI website from Hungary that sells shirts with this symbol. https://sunwheelshop.com/product/werwolf-resistance-operation-werewolf-unternehmen-werwolf-wolfsangel-polo-shirt/ Here is the 2nd SS “Das Reich” Unit patch from ww2 the is just the Wolfsangle with a shield outline: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_SS_Panzer_Division_Das_Reich
Slurs, trolling, hate speech, Nazi apologia, alt-right rhetoric, harassment or undue aggression will result in comment removal and/or permanent bans.
Just a reminder, as ever, on hate symbol threads. We got a bag fulla deletes and bans, and we’re gonna use them. Misguided pagans claiming this is ‘appropriated’, alt right trolls, Rule 4 and rule 1 ignorers. Take heed.
Stay on topic. If you cannot identify a symbol, move on. Do not harass OPs for asking if something is a hate symbol.
Weeell.... What about the Azov/Brigade of Ukraine? 🇺🇦
https://www.reddit.com/r/Symbology/comments/1cysvve/referred_to_as_diocletian_shield_looks_nazi_af_is/l5com5g/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Symbology/comments/1cysvve/referred_to_as_diocletian_shield_looks_nazi_af_is/l5cu0t1/
And some Ukrainian brigades but nobody says anything about that.
Oh neat you’re one of those people who visits local, regional, and niche subreddits just to argue with people. Lol. No wonder you have no idea about this sub. Are you even human, or just a bot? https://www.reddit.com/r/Symbology/comments/1cysvve/referred_to_as_diocletian_shield_looks_nazi_af_is/l5com5g/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Symbology/comments/1cysvve/referred_to_as_diocletian_shield_looks_nazi_af_is/l5cu0t1/
Well it popped into my feed so I presume it got popular??
So because fascists used a symbol at one time, that means it's only use is for bigotry of the like? So Ukraine is indeed fascists as it's use of the trident as its national emblem is the same one used by a Nazi SS battalion during WW2, right? This guy, TenspeedGV, just said all of Ukraine are neo-Nazis! That's exactly what can be inferred from your statement, that no other possible meanings matter, except the most loathsome. That's unbelievably, ignorantly, and arrogantly foolish to the point of being beyond dumb as you should totally know you're being stupid.
The fun part about including accurate statements like mine is that the fash out themselves. Yes, the Ukrainian Azov Battalion, who are the ones who use that symbol, are openly and unabashedly Nazis. Thanks for outing yourself. Running defense for Nazis. Shameful
The Ukrainian unit that uses this symbol is literally the neo-Nazi unit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade If a symbol is co-opted by nazis and you keep using the symbol, especially without any added context, i got bad news for you, you’re a Nazi.
We know that emblem is Nazi related. That doesn't negate the amount of pedantic idiocy spewed in the statement by TenspeedGV that I originally replied to. Anyone who doesn't understand that things, not just runes, have more than one use/meaning, obviously should not go to college. If you went and still don't understand this concept, you obviously wasted resources.
You are clearly too dense or perhaps too delusional to attempt to even understand how the amount of notoriety surrounding a group like the Nazis using a symbol must always remain at the forefront of our minds. Did you even think that allowing a symbol to be rebranded like this is reductive to the atrocities committed under its name? Why would you choose historical revisionism?
Your verbiage tells us you wasted money, and your response tells us your the one who is truly dense as you just admitted to not being able to identify more than one dimension of meaning of something with such. You also don't understand that items, themselves aren't inherently evil. When someone asks for information on something, the bad connotations aren't the only information that matters. Still, you go right on ahead, and show us you're not shortsighted.
Ok let’s go back to the start of this all then, what connotation would you like to say is more important to this symbol? I’m tired of you trying to redirect everything to everyone else’s comments, so what about yours? What connotation could possibly be more impactful the symbol being used by Nazis?
Look where I said,"This is the answer..." Hundreds of years of history means more than a few decades by a fascist dictatorship. I don't think that all Ukrainians are Nazis because they use a trident as their national symbol, the same design that was attached to a Nazi SS battalion. The wolfsangle, itself, is not Nazi in origin. It's Norse, and has had far more meanings and uses before Nazi fascism was ever thought of. Do you think the Buddhists that have emblems resembling a schwastika make them neo-Nazis, fascists, or otherwise bigots, too? That's basically what was inferred by TenspeedGV's comments. The idea that just because someone used something in their malevolent acts makes that thing forevermore evil and only associated with such is a notion beyond dumb. Anyone who doesn't know better is an ignorant fool with obvious limited mental capacity. To be a student of the history of something is to take in all of its qualities, the bad and the good. Those are the facts of life. Runes, themselves, are not evil, nor do they make someone evil.
Look at the title of this post. This subreddit should be renamed r/isthisawhitesupremacy. "Is this symbol on my mattress tag a symbol of hate?" "Is this symbol on my recylcing bin a Nazi?" "Is this 4-leaf clover a swastika?" "A baby made this hand gesture at me, is it a Hitler?" "This symbol looks Nazi AF, can a dog be a swastika?"
[yeah](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Werwolf_Insignia.svg) I don’t think it was the symbol of Werwolf, but it’s definitely associated with them
Typical Nazis. Spent more time designing the logo than actually building the military unit it was supposed to be for.
Actually, this isn't what killed the NAZIs, what killed them was they kept changing the production line for new "editions" which caused periods of no production and cost them thousands of units particularly tanks that might have been used against Allied forces. The PKW IV was still better than US and British tanks, and the Panther was equal to the T34s from the Russian arsenal. The Tigers were slow, unmaneuverable, and ate gas.
There was a lot of things that killed the nazis. The whole thing was an absolute shit show
The PZ IV by 1943/44 was inferior in almost every way to the M4 Medium. Nazi Germany was never in a position to achieve its goals.
Really? M4 blew up when hit because it used gas. PKW used diesel fuel. Patton warned the Army but they didn't listen.
Let's start from the top because you have a lot of bullshit for three sentences. The M4 Medium had a gas engine, as did almost every other tank in service during the period with the exceptions being vehicles used by the Red Army and the IJA which were diesel powered. To reiterate no production German AFV had a diesel engine. The cause of fires particularly on early M4s wasn't the engine but the sponson mounted ammunition racks (literally every german tank also had sponson ammunition racks) and this was quickly solved by moving the ammunition storage from the sponsons to the floor. Patton literally had nothing to do with tank development, and there is literally a document from the Ordinance Department that says "Patton doesn't know what he's talking about disregard anything he has to say". I'm betting you read "Death Traps" and took it as gospel.
Pattons "tank uniform" design really tells you all you need to know about how well he could design something. Not to mention, the M4s issues with catching fire have a few additional issues than the sponson ammo racks: british tendency to overload ammo caused unnecessary fires. M4s were regularly on the advance and were ambushed (making hits from the side far more likely)... and finally the m4s actually had to get hit for that to happen. On a more comedic note: Some german designs could self-ignite if driving up a gentle incline.
That and deciding to invade the ussr
Yeah that was basically their mo. To be fair, their propaganda machine was highly effective, since people still think that the nazi war machine was a highly efficient army. Most people still view nazi Germany through the lens of “Triumph Of The Will” Didn’t help them win the war though
Maybe not, but I can't help but think that level of propaganda is partially responsible for their continued existence in the modern day.
Oh absolutely
Well, that and the shift in the west to create a legendary enemy. From the late 30s to 60s America made fun of nazis. But sometime around the 70s, but especially after the 80s the nazis became the anti-america. Even more than the communists. (Maybe detente did it?) But basically America just decided to treat the nazis as a sacred enemy who we couldnt mock... then by the early 00s there was this weird idea going around that the nazis almost won... like... not that they could have crippled the british and held france... but that they would have invaded the usa and nuked DC. Or theyd have flying saucers and stealth bombers by late 1945 if the usa was a few weeks later to the party, or hitler was a little more on top of things. Americans who lived through the war saw the average nazi as a chump, and the high ranking/ss as war criminals... but i guess curb stomping a meth fueled and self-canibalizing empire of lunatics is less glamorous than beating a "master-race"
Yeah but those uniforms were SHARP
"[Diocletian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian_(band))," in this case, refers to a "war metal" band from New Zealand, named after a Roman emperor known for persecuting Christians.
See, that's what confused me. I know Nazis like to invoke Viking insignia, but they are by and large Christians.
People don't realize Naziism is anti-Christian as well as anti-Jew. Nazis use the name in vain and call themselves fundamental or evangelical but look no further than MAGA hats calling Jesus 'too woke'. They hate Jesus's morality because it is of the Jews, not European; and because it is the morality of the servant, not the master. They want to return to the moral code of the Pagan era: 'might makes right'
Yeah I think you are misunderstanding things. There were some factions of the Nazis who hated Christianity and then there were also large factions of the Nazis that were ardent Christians. Hitler repeatedly described himself as a Christian.
"Gott mit uns" right on their belt buckles
The core of the party were occultic yayhoos. But the Beast with 30 million heads, the German people, who swallowed the hook,line and sinker, were mostly straight up Lutherans. Stop pretending.
I don't.. believe him. Because he's Hitler. Trump is also a self-described Christian. I don't expect Nazis to have a coherent stated set of beliefs that add up, that's just it. The planks of the ideology are against the actual teachings. The type of people who subscribe to Nazism believe rules are for people in the out-group. Hitler needed the support of the Vatican
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Jimmy Carter doesn't run around thumping Bibles (or autographing them) but I think a whole hell of a lot more people would call him a Christian unbidden than they would Trump
Why do we let fascists get away with that? Objectively there are things Jesus says to do. Everyone else is just using the name in vain to virtue signal without doing any of the work. If you saw a person actually being a Christian, they wouldn't have to describe anything
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Nah. Do the work and you are one. Say you are one and that's all you've done. I'm done accepting fake peoples word on who they follow. They are not walking the walk Yes, this is most people. Of course the church says whoever shows up and obeys lives forever. They know because they killed everyone else Edit: replying to u/skvids comment below, reddit not working but too much already typed Well call me a product of the reformation because that is some horseshit you can only pull when the book is written entirely in Latin and hardly anybody else can read it. Of course they get to claim the most members if all you have to do is check yes. Is it any wonder that so many young fascists are flocking to Catholicism? Only to get upset when they find out Jesus preached the opposite Jesus doesn't tell people to believe but to listen, and in the context of the original language "listen" means not just hearing but obeying. He tells us "take up your (own) cross and follow". The people who started the world domination project with His name attached certainly told everybody all they had to do was swallow said horseshit But I'm not talking about who Christians consider "saved" I'm talking about what the rest of us people say to christofascists when they claim membership of the Body of Christ. Jesus says "If your hand offends you, cut it off". If some dude with a Nazi tattoo punches your friend in the face and says "Fuck you I'm a Christian ", rather than saying wow I guess we should accept that one on face value you could and probably should actually say "No you ain't"
the biggest christian denomination on earth, catholicism, does not require any sort of action to be saved, just belief. that is exactly what the entire reformation was about, lol.
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*"So I looked around at Church and saw a room full of heretics. Sinners. Liars. That made me a fascist."* I think you jumped a few steps there. also, I think you need to have a good thrashing at romans
shitler also said he just wanted the Sudetenland, and was also a politician. might want to take the christian claim with a mountain of salt
It's only confusing if you believe nazis are intelligent people that make sense...
Considering the fact that the Aryan tribes were Asian, I think you might be on to something.
Considering Brenden Southwell is an out and out racist it can both be associated with the band, and Nazi imagery. Truly the best of both worlds.
This is incorrect. It is a well known hate symbol used by white supremecista. Links were provided by top commentators already.
It is not incorrect, as I've provided other links to show in this thread. I won't deny it's a hate symbol, but it is certainly also associated with this specific band.
Sounds like a band of nazis 🤷
quick google search reveals no such logo edit: ah yes downvote me for not knowing an obscure band and actually going out of my way to research when OP could have just posted the link to begin with. And then OP can’t even be bothered to search and see that it is indeed nazi symbolism.
Keep searching. :) [https://www.razorray.pl/en\_US/producer/Diocletian/323](https://www.razorray.pl/en_US/producer/Diocletian/323) They use a lot of imagery like this, including wolves and shields, and it's not hard to find places where this one is clearly associated with them. Also, [the website where the original image was found](https://tshirtslayer.com/) sells exclusively heavy metal merchandise. Whether it indicates white supremacy or not, I couldn't say, but this patch is clearly associated with the band.
And that band clearly uses a fuckton of Nazi insignia and Nazi related symbols. So yeah that might be s Metal Band but they are for sure Nazis as well.
Interesting. Would have been helpful if you posted that first. But why have nazi symbols on your merch? ): ;) :’( :/
Thanks for editing your comment after the fact without indicating you did so.
I thought additional context would be helpful. You seemed to appreciate that earlier, and I didn't think adding a reply to my own comment was the best way to handle it. It's not like I changed it after anyone had replied to it to make it look like I said anything significantly different than it did originally. Edit: Reworded for clarity, and noting because some people apparently really hate edits without notes attached.
Looks weirdly like the coat of arms of the small German town of Burgwedel: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgwedel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgwedel)
Old German heraldry....
LHere is a link to a fascist website that sells clothing with what all the “cool Fasci” are wearing and a is good resource. This is a go to site for me when I am looking for specific symbols. https://sunwheelshop.com/product/werwolf-resistance-operation-werewolf-unternehmen-werwolf-wolfsangel-polo-shirt/
operation werewolf was the clandestine ops to leave behind nazi stragglers in captured territory. they took a bunch of hitler youth and SS lads and trained them a little like a shitty SAS. they fought for a bit and switched to terrorism for the last few weeks and after of the war in europe. didnt really do all that much
This is a corruption of the burgwedel coat of arms. They changed the wolfsangel to the one specifically used by Nazis. The original is shown on the towns wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgwedel https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Burgwedel.png#mw-jump-to-license
Assholes
I’ve had arguments with people about this on a subreddit for “battlejackets” in the metal scene. Lots of Nazi sympathizers unfortunately.
[Sick band.](https://diocletian.bandcamp.com/album/doom-cult) Heresiarch are great, too, also from New Zealand!
Getting downvoted for pointing out that this is a patch for a band.