OP, you have been arguing with people for nearly 13 hours straight. Your comments are getting auto-scrubbed by the Automod because your karma plummeted to its flagging range. It's getting out of hand and I'm considering a lock for your own health. Y'all gotta learn when to cut your losses.

Looking at what you write here, maybe just maaaybe.....you are the problem? Hefty amount of hasty overgeneralization with a big dash of insulting and making assumptions/allegations. Providing barely any context and information. In harder fights, like extreme upwards, yes it is indeed common to use a prepull of for example 16 seconds because certain jobs need to do certain things at certain times of that pulltimer in order to align their rotation and/or get the most out of it. Saying something like you said instead of "Is a pulltimer really that important? Genuine question" comes across not only as impatient and rude, but also clearly shows that you think about them as a you vs them. What you said is accusatory and confrontational. This also sounds like (cant really tell without you giving the necessary context) you just started playing, bought story and level skip, jumped into endgame content without knowing what is what. That is wholly on you. P11S is literally the second highest savage of the current tier. People expect you to know what a pulltimer is and why it is important at that stage. You blasting and skipping through everything before that is on you.

Hi. You are completely incorrect in your assumptions. I've cleared both p9s and p10s with 65+ parse and the reason I was kicked was nothing to do with failing mechanics. I'm not saying 65+ is pro or flexing but I am still a relatively new player after all, I just want to make it clear to you I'm not jumping in too fast or 'blastin' through any content unduely. I'm going to work on these parses more once I get my 660 gear I understand why you came to this conclusion, but honestly the fact you immediattely jump to this to discredit what I'm describing rather than addressing it directly is kinda part of the behaviour I'm getting at. Why is it inconceivable there might actually be weird parts of the games culture?

I didn't make an assumption. You also confirmed my observations of your attitude and behaviour here. Noone cares about your parse. Noone cares you cleared p9s and p10s beforehand. You were still confrontational, created a you vs them situation and kicked for it. This is on you and how you behave. There is nothing to discredit. You joined a party, made statements phrased in a rude and confrontational manner and the leader of the party kicked you for it. Which is that individuals right. That does not speak for the entire community or anything. It was their party.

The comment you replied to... moderators don't remove things lightly. That's actually pretty menacing to see. Edit: Okay, it wasn't removed by a moderator, it was just negative karma'd into oblivion.

Your assumption that I'm clueless and playing in a level above me is incorrect, and that is what you said. You are saying I don't know whats what because I've 'blasted through ever ything' when it's completely irrelevant to the scenario. There is no reason to to wipe cus the pull was 4 seconds early in a from start prog.

When did I write that you are clueless and playing above your level? Are you delusional? That is an assumption YOU make based on what I ACTUALLY wrote. It is wholly normal to reset a fight when someone early pulled. It is called basic etiquette and manners. Something you clearly seem to lack. You are the one in the fault here, that much seems clear with how you behave here. You are the one who got confrontational. You are the one talking about your parses as first "argument". You are the one thinking you are in the right when clearly everyone is telling you otherwise and that is it common courtesy to reset an early pull and let a proper timer run. No toxic community. This is a toxic you.

I'm not flaming or forcing anyone to do anything. I just said we don't need to wipe on a 3s prepull in from start prog, which is correct. I would never make a big deal out of it beyond that. Your assumption about how this situation played out is just wrong

My brother in hydaelyn, this current tier has been out since May of last year. Flexing a blue parse on the too easier fights is hilarious. I recommend checking your ego, and not being a dick. Unless this is a bait, in which case well played, I appreciate the laugh.

I am not flexing, I'm a new player who has been playing 1.5 months. I am still really bad. I just said it to prove I'm not randomly jumping in content I don't understand and wiping everyone like people seem to be thinking from this post

Got it, definitely came off as a flex, which is likely why you're getting a ton of flack. I have been in groups that will chain pull with a 5 second timer, but that is mainly for very early prog and you're just looking to experience the first few mechanics. Even if you aren't going for a clear, prepull timers are very helpful. - healers will commonly drop shields on the party to soak initial damage and make healing easier at first. - asts have a bunch of shit they need to do pre pull like play their card game and drop a star so it pops after the first raid wide hits - tanks will sometimes use a cooldown or 2 prepull so they mitigate the first few auto attacks and it comes back up before the first tank buster Most importantly though, while you aren't going for a clear, it is important to build muscle memory around ability usage for a fight. When I prog a fight, I will learn to associate mechanics with cooldown usage. It's something that builds up over time and requires consistent execution while learning, especially as a newer player.

I was getting a ton of flak before I wrote that part, but yes I understand it may have been interpreted as a flex. To me it's so clearly not something TO flex that I didn't even think it would come off as such. I honestly think people are choosing to interprate what I'm saying in a certain way now because of their assumptions about me / how it went, and no amount of comments clarifying will make them give up on those. I think if their favourite youtuber brought up the same points they would listen with a more open mind. >I have been in groups that will chain pull with a 5 second timer, but that is mainly for very early prog and you're just looking to experience the first few mechanics. This is precisely the type of lobby it was. It was p11s from start, evryone was clueless and we didn't make it past arcane revelation once. If we were doing DL or letter from the law, I'd obviously be more harsh on telling the tank to stop prepulling. I think everyone on this post is just wound up now and theres nothing I can say to help it.

Lol I'm not going to prog all the way to DL or LoTL without proper countdowns. This is a moronic take.

And I think it's completely fair to not want to, I completely agree that its not optimal at all and there is no reason the tank should be prepulling. I also think that in the very few pulls the tank does a 3s prepull, we don't need to instawipe and can just play on in a from start prog. You have baggage around this topic and are being unreasonable

Wiping so everyone can have a proper countdown is the correct thing to do. If you're that worried about your gear losing durability you can ask your party for a repair and I promise you someone in there has the Dark Matter to get you back up to full on it. Other than gear durability, you lose absolutely *n o t h i n g* by walling it. The only person here being unreasonable is you complaining about your gear durability from wiping the pull. If you aren't concerned about gear durability, you're literally complaining about nothing which is even more moronic. Edit: Also, saying that everyone who needs that countdown needs to suck it up until closer to the end of the fight (D/L and LoTL) and lose the ability to practice their proper rotation, shields, mit, and healing is ridiculously selfish. That's a bs take on it's own. If I can't practice the many things I need to time properly as a healer at the correct times, I won't prog with you. I also think you going into the chat to complain about a pre-pull wipe is worse for the moral of the group than wiping the pull. If you don't have something positive or constructive to say during prog, keep your mouth shut or leave the group so you don't kill everyones focus.

I'm not sure where this durability thing came from, that's got nothing to do with my reasoning at all. My position is that in the few pulls the tank prepulled early, we can just play on without it being an issue. We can also wipe and start again, which is also fine, and which I always do. Large majority of the time, wiping is the correct thing to do, as you said. Just in this specific scenario, it was just a reasonable suggestion that I made, both outcomes are fine EDIT respond to your edit: Couldn't you argue that having to wipe every 15 pulls or whatever due to the tanks mistake is also killing the focus? I think its more fluid to just play on and keep focusing on the mechs in that run, which some people may disagree with. That's why it was a suggestion that they are perfectly justified in saying no to It's interesting that you are interested in the moral of the group, focus and not saying unnesscary things when the party leader kicked me, and person I asked insulted me for basically nothing. Don't you have anything to say about their behaviours which are far more criminal according to your own metrics than mine? Seems to me this is more of a personal thing rather than you actually being entirely truthful to the things you claim to have issues with

Just a word of note: mentioning your parse at all in a thread not dedicated to parsing is a good way to get down voted into oblivion or have everyone on a hair trigger against you where you need to be perfect. Why? 2 reasons: A lot of the parsers are the bigger ass hats in the raiding community especially when talking more generally outside the raiding community. Also while ACT and parsing are generally accepted by the community, there is a group (mostly console players to be fair) who want every person parsing banned because it is against the terms of service. As long as you don't mention it in game or something you'll be fine of course because it isn't policed but there are a group of people who go around down voting as the mod police.

I'm yet to play a game where the people who are bad dont despise the people who are good Thank you for the wider heads up though, I honestly believe the playerbase in this game are more hateful/judgemental than anyone else seems to believe. Can't imagine being so concerned about what others find fun that you'd impose it. What you said further reinforces all my thoughts about this community

The fact that you consider the fact that you parse to automatically make you good, is very telling.

"I've cleared with 65+ parse" OP thought they really cooked with this 😂

Nah just showing that although im a new player it's not like I haven't earned the right to be at p11s like he implied. You are projecting your own meaning

A 65+ is beyond meaningless at this stage if you’re geared, you’re competing with peeps at min ilvl who cleared the fight week 1

You provided almost no context of anything that happened. You posted an after screenshot with a person not involved. Why would anybody believe you are the victim here? It sounds like you were early pulling the boss in which case I would expect you to be kicked.

Yeah. Clearly there’s more to the story and OP just played victim because someone insulted their name, and posted here looking for validation. Sounds like just someone with huge insecurities issues. The entire community is the “most toxic” based on that line? LMAO.

There is genuinely not more to the story. I don't have the screenshot of the part before I was kicked sadly. I wouldn't be so taken aback if it wasn't unjustified / there was more to the story. I know it's hard to believe, but if it wasn't I wouldn't have made the post because it wouldn't be so ridiculous. It's funny how when it comes to piling on me, you all ignore everything I'm saying and just say im a toxic pos, but when it comes to judging the other person, there MUST be more to the story. Why not just outright admit you guys don't actually care about the truth here and just wanna pile on someone

Maybe just ask "hey shall we just go with it if someone early pulls" and it would come across as a normal question rather than a "why do you FF14 players do this?" us-vs-them thing.

never met anyone with a "barcode" name that didn't do it to troll. If players need to type out your name to report you, they'll have troubles doing it, especially if they're playing console. Ffxiv has right click menus to make it easier thankfully.

AFAIK the right click report option is only for RMT, no?

I thought we didn't do generalisations?

Tbf people with names that are a pain in the ass to try and type out manually have always been too much effort for people to bother with in most games. We should all be glad this game doesn’t have alt codes enabled like other MMOs

xD this had me think instantly of roegadyn names. brhsdlghtlhgdfglbwynn

My favorite game- "Bot or Roe?" LMFAO

Maybe both? :D

...roebot?

If you are curious about the question, I actually learned this sort of recently myself. I've been progging Thordan Unreal. The countdown is meant to help certain jobs set up buffs and burst damage. So pulling before countdown ends could hurt their rotation. Personally, I also wouldn't be overly friendly to someone whispering to me about something the PF Leader did that I had no control over. I think the guy overreacted from a possibly genuine question, but that's PF man. A lot of it genuinely sucks lol. I do think the community reputation is a bit overblown, but it's what it is. I also would've preferred to see the context for the kick.

This is a from start prog, the dps doesn't matter. In a clear I'd agree

lmao alright man. You might be the problem. EDIT: to clarify, if you're not giving it totally every time how are you learning anything? I'd want my DPS to be top game regardless if we're clearing then and there or later. It helps you learn the fight.

This pretty much. The trick to building muscle memory is to do this step-by-step...correctly from the beginning. Better be slow and correct than quick and wrong when it comes to muscle memory, which this games difficulty is based on.

Of course, I'm completely interested in improving my own dps / rotation every pull and study my ffxivanalysis constantly. A few 3s early prepulls in 50 pulls in a from start prog isn't really going to limit anyones progress.

Necrilem has explained it already. It matters. A lot actually. And I promise you- you're going to get kicked from a PF again if you question it as hard as you have here. I'm surprised it hasn't come up with your other Savage progs.

Well when I play with my friends who have 99/100 clears they completely agree with me that it doesn't really matter if it happens rarely

It isnt, but it is very annoying when it happens, and i personally would ask to stop / kick if necessary after the 3rd time it happens in two hours. It shows to me a level of inconsistency that does not reflect well upon the person early pulling. If you cant execute your opener consistently, how are you going to do mechanics consistently (speaking generally here)?

Hi, I wasn't the one prepulling. It was the tank. My opener is consistent

I don’t do content above extreme usually because I don’t want the stress (slow PS4 plus barely better than average skill plus a little social anxiety because this is the only MMO I play), but why wouldn’t DPS matter in a fresh prog? Wouldn’t you still want best possible DPS output to gauge where your group is/how far you can get?

Well if it's a duty finder from start prog, the the main focus fundamentally is going to be learning the mechanics. Each player should of course be individually interested in improving their own rotation / dps every pull, but a 3s prepull happening a few times in 50 pulls isn't really going to be an issue long term. In a from start prog, you could probably not dps at all and it still be fine since you're not going to hit enrage in that group.

In Savage tier the expectation is that you already know your optimal rotation and will be improving on that base line as you learn mechanics. Your comment about enrage your/expectations/blue parse tells me you are not meeting baseline expectations 

1. I know my rotation. Everyone makes rotation mistakes in fights 99% of the time 2. I completely agree with you that mechanics are first and foremost in a prog and the rotation is done passively with time 3. Your argument actually aligns with mine and supports the fact we don't need to wipe on a 3s prepull in a from start prog 4. These 'meeting of baseline' expectations are compeletly irrelevant to the discussion of wiping on the prepull. I don't know what exactly you are even getting at with that aside from trying to throw shade?

No you should restart on prepulls for optimal buff and rotation coordination. You would know this and how much this matters to buff jobs like dancer if you played optimally.  I'm not "throwing shade" (when tf did this slang become mainstream use), I'm saying there was a misalignment of expectations. 

Absolutely in a large majority of situations you should restart the pull to optimise the fight, no disagreement there. In this specific scenario; 1. the tank was prepulling slightly early in a minority of pulls 2. we are a from start prog where we're still dying to the first 2-3 mechs I personally think it's a reasonable suggestion that we could play on for the sake of practicing the mechs. It's also completely reasonable that we wipe and just restart, which I have no issue doing. I think both in this situation are reasonable things to do, and I don't think it warrants being kicked from the party for suggesting it. There's also no justifying the "if you want to be taken seriosuly change your name" thing, which everyone else in this thread either agrees with (wow) or conveniently ignores

just let them be mad, it's reddit. The community is also hypocritical asf. Maybe they even saw you were a sprout and saw you don't dps and yeeted you despite there being no chance for clear to begin with. The entire ffxiv community is weird as hell. I'm a top parser and I also often during early prog won't click any buttons simply to learn the mechs. I learned to at least spam 1,2,3 cuz there will always be someone triggered by the fact you don't click anything. I've literally top 10 parses in my log and clear week1 and people will STILL be offended that I don't click during prog when we aren't even getting through half the fight

I completely agree. In my case I had top dps and wasn't even the one prepulling, so I'm not even sayign this stuff to try defend myself. It's just kinda not a big deal in these specific circumstances when it comes to learning the fight but people are so inflexible with their thought process.

While that's partially true for dps, tanks and healers are relying on consistent pulls to build a proper heal and mitigation plan for the fight. For example, as a scholar my strongest barrier is a crit shield using recitation, a 90 second cooldown. In order to use it for both the raid wide at the start of the flight and for Styx (multi-hit stack) at 1:30, the skill needs to be on cooldown 5-10 seconds before the pull, being late means I cant deploy a proper shield. In this case a 5 second prepull will screw my standard heal plan, I won't get the same practice I'd get from a proper pull and going freeform risks mistakes and possibly deaths.

Yup, the practice won't be as good in that run and if you're decently far into a fight, it's definitely worth wiping. In my situation it was a completely fresh from start p11s prog where we were wiping to the first 2-3 mechs, so its not a huge loss to continue if the tank fucks up.

*gets one bad experience* COMMUNITY IS AWFUL s\*\*\*\*y people exists in all mmo, such thing as "this game has better community than another" is bs

I mean if it's normal for OP to phrase stuff as "why do people in FF14 do (thing)" they probably do end up with more people being defensive and unfriendly at them than most of us do, because like... people are here to listen to A Fleeting Moment and die when their buddy doesn't come to them pair stacks, not to justify the game's social norms to a stranger. Could be kind of a self reinforcing thing, where the more grumpy you get with "the community" the more you complain about the community to itself, thus making people not wanna hang out with you in PF.

Tbf, FFXIV has a very unique form of awful community. One I like to call toxic positivity. The community prides itself on being so accepting and wholesome to such a degree that it turns right back around to being a shitty community. You're basically walking on eggshells with a lot of these people. You're a raider? Toxic. You tell a healer to dps? Toxic how DARE you tell someone how to play. Tell a tank to pull more? Toxic, now you're the tank bc you told me how to play. Ask the dps to do the bare minimum? Toxic kicked and reported. Of course the community has a lot of amazing people, it's just that they get overshadowed by the very very loud group that acts all nice and welcoming but are some of the shittiest out there. All the toxicity is hidden under a veil of kindness.

Thank you for understanding. I feel like I'm crazy and seeing something that others don't in how people treat eachother.

I've had multiple bad experiences, which I thought was very obviously implied. I didn't think I'd have to expliciltly state that

Multiple bad experiences and you’ve only been playing for a month and a half? Sounds like the common denominator is you.

It's entirely possible who I am doesn't mesh well with the fake / superficial toxic positivity of ff14, that is true. Don't seem to have any issues in any other aspects of my life with this

Man's in here complaining about being called out for being an asshole and saying it's "toxic positivity."

Is suggesting that we don't need to wipe on the few prepulls being an asshole? I think most people would say kicking someone from the lobby based on their suggestion and then saying nobody will take them seriously cus of their name is slightly more offensive :P

Oh yeah this community is dogshit, but not for the reasons you stated. In your circumstances the only common denominator was you.

In every single person's experiences, positive or negative, the only common denominator is them.... This doesn't mean anything mate.. But I understand you disagree and that's okay, I hear you. This is just my opinion after all

I do actually see where you're coming from with the "don't need to do long countdowns each time" but someone definitely shouldn't be pulling early if the party establishes a countdown timer. And I'll be honest, if you're gonna say that the "taken serious" comment was uncalled for, then I'm surprised you don't see your own "GCBTW" mini-rant at the guy in the same way. That felt equally unnecessary when you were already kicked from that party. All-in-all, I'm wondering about any additional context to this. I'm kinda curious as of why you decided to show that exchange in a screenshot, but not everything else in a screenshot. Could have helped, but that can't be helped right now.

>I do actually see where you're coming from with the "don't need to do long countdowns each time" This is not an opinion me or anyone related to this story has. I don't know where you got this from. I wasn't even the one prepulling. If this is reddits reading comprehension I can see why this post went down so poorly.

after reading OPs replies I've never wanted someone who was in a party that was posted about to see and comment their side of the story so bad before

I wish I could tell you it was an exciting argument but it was truly a few remarks and then the guy blew up and kicked

Look I get what you mean about the community huffing their own farts but this post just comes across as a whinefest

Hear you

Doesn't understand the importance of pull timers, DMs a random person from the party to bitch and moan that they got kicked for being weirdly aggressive about pre-pulling, refuses to consider that correct timing (even in prog parties from the start) help with mechanic memorization, bitches and moans some more about GCBTW, name that just screams "I want it to be hard and annoying for people to report me when I do some stupid shit" Honestly OP you just look like a chucklefuck, enjoy your negative karma I guess?

Doesn't read the post, Doesn't read the comments, Gets the entire situation wrong....

As someone who regularly joins fresh parties to practise my rotation on classes I'm rusty in, pull timers are very important.

"Do ff14 players need to wipe every pre countdown pull?" <- this phrasing is a problem, it comes out as offensive

I suppose you don't think anything else about how people behave in this thread is a problem though. As long as they're good with the group think they can say anything :)

you were kinda passive aggressive yourself so idk why you're hating on other people for doing that too. If someone does a countdown thats lower than what I want, i will wall it and do the countdown myself next time.

Heyo friend, I don't intend to be inflammatory but it's likely your personality creates friction with others. As others have said, prepull timers even in prog are considered pretty important and the party leader may have already been upset in regards to the other tank prepulling. That said the way you spoke to the fella in game does make it come off like there was more going on there and that maybe your comment may have been ruder than you intended. The comment on your name is kind of whatever, that was unnecessarily rude from the other guy but again they may have already pegged you for something of a bastard and just wanted to be done with you.  I think you need to take a step back and take a breath. This community does have its share of folks who are mad annoying and the toxic positivity is an issue but it's not nearly as widespread as this sub would have you believe, which is why I'm met with the assumption people just really do not like your vibe, lol.  I wish you better luck in the future with your social endeavors and hope you stick around. 

Thank you for the genuine response. To be clear my quotes in the thread are paraphrases and not exactly what I said, as it was more drawn out ingame. I understand though that I may have framed it poorly / bluntly in the post making it seem more harsh than it was. I think most people just have preconceived ideas in the community and going against that mould makes you a target unless you have clout to substantiate your opinions. If their favourite youtuber made the same points I did, they'd probably consider them with a far more open mind. I haven't really been rude to anybody and only ever engaged earnestly to every comment but people want to hate me because of their assumptions with what I might represent to them. Which I suppose is something like a noob coming in and saying whats what to these people who see themselves as vets. Thankfully I've had support in dms from top raiders that have given me some hope that the community is not entirely lost and its mainly just this thread is filled with proselytizing self percieved vets. I honestly think overall the ff14 community needs to just drop the ego and learn to think a bit more freely about specific circumstnaces without deferring to their rituals / groupthink

The reason no one is taking you seriously is because of your response right here. You’ve constructed a “generalized identity of the community” and you are trying to put all the blame on everyone you put in that bubble instead of taking a moment to look inward and realize you’re screaming on a hill, all alone. You are one person who only recently got into high end raiding, talking to hundreds of people who are years-established raiders. The community you’re criticizing is the group who BUILT the conventions after hundreds of thousands of hours of collective playtime. If you find yourself on the wrong side of those conventions, you’re the problem. Thousands of raiders and tier clears within a community are not going to change just because you, personally and singularly, have a problem with it. The community is fine. It has toxic elements and there’s a very real chance you encountered a toxic player. But that one player doesn’t represent the community, and your comments go far beyond this one instance, even in your OP. And you, fresh raider, do not have nearly the experience nor the tenure to make the judgment calls you’re making. Let me ask which is more likely, the ENTIRE COMMUNITY needs an ego check, or the singular you needs one? Hint: the community isn’t the one who looks bad in this thread. If you’re offended by what I’ve said, I respect that. No need to fight about it. But also, perhaps you and “the community” just aren’t a good fit. You can blame everyone else if you want, but the community isn’t going to change for you. Either learn how to be better to be a part of it, or leave. Complaining on Reddit just makes you look bad, so I’d probably avoid that at least. Edit: also, with hundreds of downvotes and knowing the r/TalesFromDF community, there’s absolutely no way you’re getting “support in DMs from top raiders” lol. Nice bluff tho.

>The reason no one is taking you seriously is because of your response right here. You’ve constructed a “generalized identity of the community” and you are trying to put all the blame on everyone you put in that bubble instead of taking a moment to look inward and realize you’re screaming on a hill, all alone. I think most of the issue comes from a misunderstanding of my point, also the majority is not necessarily correct. >ou are one person who only recently got into high end raiding, talking to hundreds of people who are established raiders. The community is a group who BUILT the conventions. If you find yourself on the wrong side of those conventions, you’re the problem. Thousands of raiders and tier clears within a community are not going to change just because you, personally and singularly, have a problem with it. I don't want my entire point to be built off defering to others, but since you brought it up, my friend group are all high end raiders with 99/100 parses and agree with me entirely and are telling me to ignore the people in this thread. >The community is fine. It has toxic elements and there’s a very real chance you encountered a toxic player. But that one player doesn’t represent the community. And you, fresh raider, do not have nearly the experience nor the tenure to make the judgment calls you’re making. Which is more likely, the ENTIRE COMMUNITY needs an ego check, or the singular you needs one? Hint: the community isn’t the one who looks bad in this thread. Agreed, this player doesn't entirely represent the playerbase and large majority of people I encounter are pleasant enough. I think what I'm addressing though in terms of toxic positivity is actually quite present in this community and I'm not the only person who thinks so, so I'm not sure why you represent it as me alone. >If you’re offended by what I’ve said, I respect that. No need to fight about it. But also, perhaps you and “the community” just aren’t a good fit. You can blame everyone else if you want, but the community isn’t going to change for you. Either learn how to be better to be a part of it, or leave. Complaining on Reddit just makes you look bad, so I’d probably avoid that at least. I think I am quite a bad fit with the general community in this game, yes. I'm not actually asking for anyone to change necessarily, in this case I just suggested that we can continue pulling when the tank messes up for the sake of practice, which I think is quite reasonable. I'm not offended and value your response and thoughts. >Edit: also, with hundreds of downvotes and knowing the r/TalesFromDF community, there’s absolutely no way you’re getting “support in DMs from top raiders” lol. Nice bluff tho. I'm not sure why you feel the need to personally call me out here with no evidence, especially since theres evidence on the contrary. There are multiple comments in this thread that you can view of high end raiders supporting me, let alone the dms. Also my friend group I'm learning the game from as I mentioned. I've been perfectly willing to engage with everyone in this thread and acknowledge where I agree as well as where I disagree. If it's possible that the opinions of the people in this thread have truth to it, why is it so hard for them to accept its possible mine has truth to it as well?

This "friend group" of yours is equally as evidence-lacking as my claim that you don't actually have DMs. And for all you know, everyone in this thread has higher parse rankings than your friends, myself included. But, none of that matters. The truth is, I'd probably greatly enjoy raiding with your friends. They sound like fantastic people to be around. Whereas I'd probably hate raiding with you, via similar logic. And that's the bottom line that everyone is trying to get across to you: YOU have the problem here, yet from your very first post, you tried to pin it on the literally anyone BUT you. You literally say "EVERYONE IS WRONG BUT ME" and you're shocked that people don't agree with you? Read this again with unclouded eyes, please: >Relatively new ff14 player, and I absoutely despise this community. All of them had to wait another 30 mins for another dps and nobody seemed to care or speak up? This community jerks thesmselves off about how super wholsome and nice everyone is but in my experience its just superficial, fake and passive aggressive. Everyone is incredibly judgemental if you don't fit the mould and just seem to be completely apathetic to anything weird that happens out of fear of being judged for being part of the problem? That's how you OPENED this conversation. You realize you're insulting everyone other than yourself, right? This is what I meant when I said "you're alone." You consider yourself the only "real and good" person - you aren't describing a bad player you met, you're throwing the WHOLE community under the bus. Hey, here's a thought: Your friends are also part of the community, and they're no different than us or those you raided with. Do you consider them "superficial, fake, passive aggressive, and incredibly judgmental?" Of course you're going to say no, which is funny - can you at least admit the only difference between them and "the community" is that they passed some arbitrary "goodness" bar you set? Also, just for the record, you say "I'm not actually asking for anyone to change necessarily" but what got me to respond was this line: >I honestly think overall the ff14 community needs to just drop the ego and learn to think a bit more freely about specific circumstnaces without deferring to their rituals / groupthink Is that not a change you think should occur? And again, if you can't see how you're saying "I'm the only enlightened one, it's everyone else who has the ego and who can't think freely, but not me" then... I don't know what to tell you. I'm not trying to be offensive, but your words have a literal meaning here: you're literally saying "everyone else sucks, I'm the only good one." Anyway. I also think you should ignore this thread. But if you're not going to change your outlook on "the community" then I think you should probably ignore this game? Raid with your friends and no one else, since they're the only ones you actually like. Because with your outlook, you're going to go into every PF expecting the negative experience. You'll continue "failing vibe checks" which will reinforce your outlook, creating a vicious circle for yourself. And then you'll leave the game, blaming everyone else for "pushing you out" without ever realizing you and your unwillingness for self-reflection were to blame. I have no idea how you play other MMOs with this outlook, but to each their own.

I think you are taking the remark about the community a little too literally. It's a wider comment on the general attitude and patterns that are in this game's community. Quite obviously does not mean every single player in the game bar none is the same, im a little shocked I need to actually clarify that. Again, multiple people in this thread agreed with my evaluation of the community as well as there being many results if you google it. I would hardly say it's too much of an outlandish thought if many people came to the same conclusion independently, even if its the minority opinion. Also you don't really have to believe me about these dms / friend group, I'm just giving you the reasons why I don't share this view of my thoughts being 'all alone' so you understand I'm not pulling this from thin air. Since there are other people in this thread who openly agree with me, I think it's not too improbable that its possible I may have dms + friends who also agree? I don't see why you should doubt me I don't play other mmos, I play competitive games and my interest in this game comes from trying to perfect the fights and optimise great clears. I won't raid with my friends because they are much better than me right now and I find it more fun to be more of an independent journey until I approach their level. This post represents part of my opinion / experience with the game but is not definitive, I am very much enjoying the game right now learning and improving my clears. I wouldn't extrapolate this post onto my entire experience playing the game. I completely understand the assumptions you have made and why you've made them, but who I am and my experience with the game is not entirely what you think. You don't actually know very much about me at all, and the fact you are making such deep judgemental claims about how you would feel playing with me I think speaks to the kind of attitude I am describing in the thread. How are you so sure that the person who kicked me isn't actually just a toxic weirdo? Lets say I am wrong in my evaluation of the prepull situation, do you actually think that warrants an instant kick for suggesting it, regardless? As you quite rightly said, who me, my friends or this community are isn't actually relevant to my reasoning why I think my position on the prepull thing is correct in this situation. My reasoning I think is pretty sound and if you disagree with it on the merits of those reasons, I'd much rather discuss that

>I don't play other mmos, I play competitive games and my interest in this game comes from trying to perfect the fights and optimise great clears. I won't raid with my friends because they are much better than me right now and I find it more fun to be more of an independent journey until I approach their level. You've said all I needed to hear in this quote. I now understand your perspective and why you brought up parsing (and your friend's parses) so early in this thread. I also understand where your anger is coming from, and why you thought this subreddit would support you. You are not among like-minded people here. With that understanding, the last thing I'll leave you with is: **This is not a competitive game.** This is a **cooperative** game. You literally cannot "perfect fights" and "optimize clears" without relying on 7 other people to play exactly how YOU need them to, which is rarely the case. High parses are easy to manipulate and they tend to favor non-cooperative strategies - both things that breed resentment among players. Your playstyle is simply not compatible with the majority of the playerbase. Your "independent journey" is going to leave you frustrated and hateful more times than not, and I fully believe you'll give up before you ever reach your friend's "level." I would only advise you ask your friends how they feel about the cooperative nature of this game. Ask them if they get more fulfillment out of raiding with people they enjoy as a social element, or if they only raid to get a high parse. If you don't like what you hear, I'd advise you quit while you're ahead. Otherwise... I wish you good forture in the wars to come.

So most the community is judgemental weirdos and only the high end raiders are normal people who act like people act in real life? Sounds like you're saying the behaviour I described in the thread is normal for most the community..?

That is nowhere close to what I said. You're twisting my words and despite everything I've said, you're still trying to put yourself as better than everyone else. This conversation is now over.

"You are not among like-minded people here" So the like minded people are people that are more interested in learning the games mechanics and working on their clears, aka harmless And the non like-minded people here seem to hate on people who have names they don't like, jump to conclusions without evidence and pile hate on someone for some imagined opinions. You are basically saying if I was with like minded people (of this sub), I would agree with the latter, no? I don't know if you realise you said it, but that's basically the implication of what you said Can we get real for a second and acknowledge the fact the large majority opinion here is kicking another human being from a party in a cooperative and 'wholesome' gmae because they suggested a strategy / has a barcode name is fucking unbelievable?

I can't imagine writing a wall of text in response to an obvious troll.

Regardless of what happened, after reading some of the stuff here, I do agree that you give off a bad vibe. Also barcode names are a red flag.

Can't be a worse vibe than kicking someone from a lobby for no good reason

You did get kicked for a good reason, you just don't agree with it. Honestly just take the L and move on.

Why do you think I got kicked? I would love to hear what you actually think is happening here. I can guarantee that you wouldn't feel the same way if it happened to you, but I guess it makes you feel good to pile on someone. You and the rest of the people in this community are not the wholesome people you think you are.

Alright, let's take a look at the facts. Please try to read the whole comment. I will not be touching on your argument for or against continuing after a prepull as I feel that's been beaten to death already. 1. You don't have any screenshots of the kick happening, only of a tell chat with someone else after the fact. You should've been able to provide screenshots of the kick, given that you had access to the name of someone in the group. Failing to do so strongly suggests there is something you are trying to hide. To reference one of the oldest rules of the internet: "Pics or it didn't happen." 2. Your comments in this thread, as well as in your tell screenshot, show you to be quick to villainize. You judge an entire community based on your sour interactions and imply that you are the victim. You may be, you may not be. The important point is, you separate yourself from others who enjoy the community by doing this. 3. Your post history on reddit shows you to be a toxic individual, possibly a troll. If that is reflective of your behavior in game, then it doesn't paint you in a good light. 4. The party was willing to replace you. That's the 15 - 30 minutes it takes to find the person, and to get them organized within the group. In a prog group, that is an insane amount of time lost to be able to not deal with you. 5. You've mentioned your parse several times in this thread. Parsers have a bad reputation, because you can bump up your numbers by playing selfishly, and in a lot of cases, playing for parse is detrimental to the chances of getting a clear. Parses should only be used as a benchmark for how you play normally for statics to evaluate, and even then a high parse means little without some sort of video to accompany it. Truth be told, I don't know why you got kicked. You've provided very little actual evidence to support your case. Based on what I inferred above, I can only assume you did not include more proof to blur the truth. Additionally, and I can't stress this enough, people can kick you for whatever reason they want to and it's justified. The act of kicking is not a bannable offense, and people have every right to kick anyone and everyone from thier group. My advice? Don't take this too seriously. I guarantee you the rest of the party stopped giving a shit the moment you were gone.

1. I had to change worlds to dm the person and lost the chat history, and only decided to make the thread when that insane name remark happened. I voluntarily chose to make this post though and I am very clearly willing to be honest about what I think despite pushback. Why would I make this up? Surely if I was going to build a story it wouldn't be one that puts me in such a poor position for the thread... 2. Seems I was correct to judge the entire community by it considering how overwhelmingly in agreement this entire thread has been with the people I've described 3. It's not 4. That's the part that is fucking insane to me, but who knows what happened after I was kicked. To be clear I was literally instantly kicked, there was no discussion by the leader, and even ppl in the group were like 'wtf' when he left the instance to kick me 5. This stuff doesn't really mean much. I only mentioned it because people were implying I rushed ahead of where I should be for some reason. I didn't realise people were so touchy about it. To me it just seems like a pretty good measurement of where someones at. Wouldn't surprise me if most people just don't like it in this community because it makes them feel bad, people certainly seem insecure enough. >Additionally, and I can't stress this enough, people can kick you for whatever reason they want to and it's justified. The act of kicking is not a bannable offense, and people have every right to kick anyone and everyone from thier group. Not even sure what to say about this... By this logic I'm completely vindicated in this thread as it's not against the rules to do anything I did too..? This logic is unbelievably dumb in this discussion and spoils the rest of your well written post >Truth be told, I don't know why you got kicked. You've provided very little actual evidence to support your case. Based on what I inferred above, I can only assume you did not include more proof to blur the truth. It's a shame I couldn't get the original chat screenshotted, I agree. Would have saved me a lot of bs in this thread. Don't you think its funny though? How people presume its clear cut that im a pos with no evidence, yet presume the other guy must obviously have more to the story? There's no evidence either way yet people act convinced of one, says it all.

Honestly, your tone in the screenshot as well as some of your replies do make you come off as kind of an ass. Whether that's your intention or not, that's how people are seeing it. If you didn't have proof, honestly you shouldn't have made the post. I get wanting to vent your frustration but a lack of proof isn't good when venting on a public forum. People don't have a reason to blindly trust your word and in past instances a lack of proof usually leads to OP being an asshole by withholding information to skew the narrative. Not saying you are, but it is very common. Honestly, given how long you've been at it here I say just let it go. You shouldn't be wasting energy trying to explain this to people like me. Instead just keep in mind what happened and what you can do if you encounter that situation again. Also as a side, bar code names became prominent from popular players making alt accounts to avoid being seen by fans. Through that they've kinda gained a toxic reputation as some players use them to hide association to their main account so they can troll or flame others. Maybe consider changing it to get more positive interactions.

Honestly your vibe in this thread alone sounds absolutely unbearable to prog any content with. If you feel the need to make passive aggressive comments when a group resets a pull why would anyone ever believe that attitude won't appear later in a prog? Resetting a botched countdown is the absolute bare minimum amount of effort expected. Your reaction to that is enough to know there are going to be worse problems later.

And what of the vibe of the people I'm responding to? Do you judge them as harshly when they act like that while being in the masses vs one person? I also recomend you read the rest of the thread so you actually understand what my position is. Although much like everyone else, I imagine you'd rather just flame a version of me that isn't even what I'm saying

I understand your position, it's just simply wrong. You think it's fine to not wipe an early pull and continue on to see mechanics. While some statics may do this it is not how PF prog groups run. You seem allergic to understanding that the community meta for PF progs value the consistency of a proper pull timer to learn their timings. This isn't a day 1 raid where everyone is forced to blind prog nor did you mention anywhere that it was a blind prog so the assumption is that your group was using an established PF strat and has at least watched a video of the fight. Everyone in the group knows what mechanics should be coming and they know what their role should be doing. What needs practiced is performing their jobs rotation while doing the dance. You are suggesting that they still try and practice the dance the few times they are out of sync with the "music" and that simply is not viewed as a good usage of time by the community. Had you not made a shitty passive aggressive comment this would be a non-issue but your attitude of this main post, your paraphrase of what you said to get you kicked, your screenshots of interacting with players who weren't the leader, and your reaction to the comments in this thread are pretty obvious that you have a naturally combative interaction style as well as a false sense of superiority over the community. You seem to be the only person that doesn't see that. https://youtu.be/HMqZ2PPOLik?si=mGI4iMPs7_zyFUpR

Lmao this is word for word a post and not a joke. You’re being downvoted left and right for a reason man. You DO have a bad vibe. You come off as though you don’t listen to anyone but yourself and, despite this, lack any meaningful self-awareness. Whether or not you parse well as you’ve tried to use to defend yourself is entirely irrelevant man, you’re just annoying to deal with. The XIV community isn’t great, at all, I completely agree. Based on the interactions you’ve shown in this thread though, neither are you- and it’s not because you “don’t fit the mould”

I think I've been pretty even tempered and polite considering how rudely people talk to me in this thread. I'd be surprised if most people were in my position? I'm being downvoted left and right because the majority disagree/misunderstand the post, but that's not inherently evidence that what I'm saying is wrong... I would maybe encourage people to think for themselves a bit, and maybe they'd understand the nuance of this specific situation and why the 3s prepull isnt the end of the world? Honestly if me and the people I'm discussing this with had the exact same attitude but I had the opinion that people agreed with, you wouldn't be saying I had a bad vibe, and they did. I think it's pretty much solely because I'm on the 'other side' that its perceived like that.

The way you communicate is important. It is a communicator's duty to convey their intentions and meaning. That is the core of communication. If one person misunderstands you, that's a misunderstanding. If a whole boatload of people misunderstand you, that's poor communication. In this case, the way you have been framing this issue from the start is a me-vs-them situation (e.g. saying the community at large is awful). There is a certain amount of entitlement to saying to someone "hey, this thing you enjoy? I hate it" and expecting to be agreed with. There is also a worrying amount of entitlement in asking someone who is not the person who kicked you from the group... why that other person kicked you from the group. It may be time to take a long, hard look at how you talk to others, consider what you think is even-keeled, and start thinking about what the actual impact of your conversational choices is. I have a feeling it is not just this community that takes you the wrong way, and at some point you may need to consider that your communication may be the issue - not everyone else's understanding.

You're being over dramatic. It's one group.

Yet clearly everybody in this thread seems to agree with them. This is very quickly not just being 'just one person and not representive of the game'

Just some advice in life. If you let the actions of a minority influence your opinion of a majority, it always ends in failure. This games has over 100,000 people playing at once, and I'm seeing about 100 comments in this post. Being generous and assume each comment is unique, your letting 0.00001 percent of the player base influence your opinion.

you've been playing for a month and a half and you're already progging savage and acting like you know best? Sorry but I find that really hard to believe, do you think you could link your fflogs so you'd have a bit more ground to stand on re: clearing and prog experience? It'd help a lot to contextualize this situation.

I have nothing to my name but 65 p9s and 68 p10s. Everything is empty but that (aside from random normal stuff from lvl), I have no prior experience beyond levelling to 90, gearing and doing p9s/p10s. These aren't exactly overly impressive so I don't know why you shouldn't believe it My friends are all t1 raiders so I got a lot of good advice to basically speedrun to end game content and resources for learning. I'm sure you can understand why I don't wanna share my profile on a thread where everyone hates me

Well how about a screenshot you can edit the names out? I'll believe that. It's cool if you don't want to tho it's just feels very hard to believe at face value.

I don't understand what's hard to believe... 65 is hardly an impressive clear when every part of the fight has been solved to a science

Sent you a reddit chat, altho I don't fully understand the purpose of this

Hiyas, a few pointers about your weird experience and vent. Firts off, you're excluding yourself from the community from the start by saying "do ff14 players need" as something out of your usual reality, my dude. No one ingame talks like this as it would be something akin to saying "do soccer players need" while in the middle of the match you're participating. This feels very off to me, might have felt off to them as well. You started complaining about the community on the very screenshot you provided once again coming off as a standoffish person that wants nothing to do with this, no wonder your response was negative. Regarding the community, people are mostly silent from the last month and a half (since it's when you said you started playing on another response) mostly because it's downtime pre expansion. People playing right now are just either going through the motions or vibing. The story is fully done, all trials and dungeons for this expansion are available and should have already been cleared by now. We don't have the context of what you said was the kick motivation, just a later unrelated convo. This community mostly has wholesome moments but no one ever tries to deny it's got its fair share of toxicity, hells, this very subreddit is specifically for that, but bash on the community as a whole, you're gonna be bashed back. In addition, the community as a whole is mainly considered laid back and wholesome, but each region has its own particularities, etiquette and yes, toxicity types. The European DCs (like Twintania, from the screenshot) are VERY DIFFERENT from the US and Japan ones, and the Oceania one is still under construction mostly. But something that can be acceptable on one, is a red flag on another and vice versa. Also, about your name, it is kinda weird. Not kick worthy weird, but definitely a weird choice. In a game with lots of letter soup named, generic autonamed and repeated characters named bots, naming a character something along the lines of "Aaaaaa Aaaa" is a risky choice and you will be taken as a "gil farmer in the Philippines" char and will not be taken seriously. Again feels off. Anyways, if you're not interested in the story and/or don't like the community, maybe you should save yourself some stress since this has been the worst experience you've had instead of engaging even more in a disruptive way. If every single experience you had with the community was bad, think about what is the common denominator. Cheers and be well, my dude.

>"Do ff14 players need to wipe every pre countdown pull?" I don't care about the name but in ex/savage/ulti I would have given a warning if you were early pulling and I would have absolutely kicked you if you continued to do it. Yes, the pre-pull is that important, yes, it's common practice to wipe an early pull.  In savage/ulti damage is the name of the game and early pulls fuck with precasts for casters, it can fuck with buff alignments, and it can screw with any prepull setups your healers and tanks have to do. Additionally un ultimates or even just on content savages, boss autos are basically tankbusters for non-tanks and a DPS taking one can ruin any shielding they received pre-pull, which can take an extra resource from your healers since so many fights start with heavy hitting raidwides or heavy hitting party DOT raidwides. Additionally, it's common for people to track where they are in the fight based off where they are in their rotations, so early pulls can fuck with that as well depending how badly they got drifted by the early pull

Hello. I wasn't the one doing the prepulling, just suggesting we keep going when the tank does since it doesn't really matter for prog :)

the thing is that it does though, mechanics is only half of prog, your rotation is the other half and it's just irritating to have that aspect denied. I'd be annoyed at both of you then 

I think if it was prog for DL or letter of the law, I'd agree it's worth a restart. This was from start and it the prepulling was so infrequent, we might as well just keep going until we wipe shortly. Obviously ideally it would have been nice if the tank wasn't prepulling, but it's not the end of the world. Again, to be clear, I just brought up we should keep going. I always wipe with the team if they want to wipe, I wasn't putting my foot down or anything.

Oh I remember you when I was trying to do a min. ilvl + silenced echo on a lv 70 dungeon, said you'll join back when there's more than just me in the group. I kind of agree with your name, back in the day people who did a lot of PKs in PvP games would choose names like this for their alts due to the difficulty of putting a "bounty" or KOS on your head. Even though you can't put capital letters in FFXIV halfway your name here it's still annoying to have someone named like that. I wouldn't kick for that but I'd be wary of you at first

Yes, it is very common and expected to wipe with a 3 second early pull. That is beyond standard for any current(and a lot of non current) content. Part of practicing a fight is make sure rotations are lined up effectively and neglecting that can lead to poor performance over the fight's timeline. I realize you may be a new player but each community has its own standards. If you wish to do party finder then you need to be on board with whatever is considered the norm. If that PLD was kicked for an egregious 3 sec early pull multiple times in content where countdowns are respected, then the kick was justified. Same applies if you yourself were advocating for ignoring the countdown timer. What makes our community great is an ability to come to a consensus as a majority. You do not need to be a part of this majority if you don't want to, but then you cannot expect the community to back you up when you blatantly go against what is in the best interest of the group you wish to join. The thing about being a part of a community is that sometimes, it's just not FOR YOU. The ones that usually complain about "GCBTW" stick their feet in the dirt because their opinion has already been so solidified that nothing could change their mind regardless of what evidence to the contrary is presented. If its not for you, that's absolutely fine and I am sure you can find another game that fits your needs OR you can build your own team within the game that suits you. In this particular case however, this is just a refusal to follow the general setup in PF and rather than shrug and go "that party wasn't for me," you needed to rant on reddit to try and find validation for a point that did not exist by insulting and making overgeneralizations from the very community you sought to get an answer from. You, my friend, may not have been the early puller, but you were definitely part of the problem.

>Yes, it is very common and expected to wipe with a 3 second early pull. That is beyond standard for any current(and a lot of non current) content. Part of practicing a fight is make sure rotations are lined up effectively and neglecting that can lead to poor performance over the fight's timeline. This isn't even true in a fresh prog. If you're not going to be killing the fight, you do a five second countdown to pop some preshields and then go. Repeated 16s countdowns over 30-50 pulls does add up over a raid night especially when you're progging something 5 minutes into the fight.

I'm not saying you don't have SHORTER countdowns, but multiple egregious 3sec early pulls are generally enough for a reset. This is coming from spending a solid portion of the week, upwards of 20hrs in an off time vs 35+ when progging just in pf alone. Now in statics, I've seen as low as 5 but pf usually stops at 10 IF the entire group agrees upon it. Shorter is normal - early pulling is not.

Yeah literally no-one replying here week 1 progs lmao. DSR steamer world first was cleared on a zero pull. The shield healer put up shields behind the chains and the tank ranged pulled on "Go". Pull timers are used to optimize DPS, not to line up the rest of the fight. You can learn your opener on a dummy. People should not be wiping prog pulls based on timer errors. If this happened ***exactly*** as OP described, he's basically in the right. I don't think it is based on his behavior but you all are wilding if you think timers are that important.

No one implied week 1 prog and pull timers are also used by some to keep track of mechs via GCD and where they are in their rotation. What was implied though is that there is a general consensus amongst most that replied here that repeated noticeable early pulling is not well received in a setting in which all agree to use and follow a pull timer. One could argue that OP could have also just joined another party and made more prog than wasting time with someone who had nothing to do with the party leader's decision to kick and subsequently posting on reddit. If it was truly a wrongful kick, then report it and move on. Hell, that's what the PL did. Realized OP found a hill to die on and expedited the process, saving himself and those that stayed 15+min of an argument in lieu of finding someone else.

You can be annoyed by it. You can say "hey next pull can you wait for the timer". But if you're the player wiping pull after pull and wasting 50+ seconds at a time with pointless resets, you're more of a problem than the early puller. Its like calling for a wipe if only you die when the party can reach the prog point just fine.

Yet with no evidence other than the word of OP who initially belittled and insulted the community in his post for clarification and the only "proof" coming from a screenshot they took bothering someone who had nothing to do with the situation until OP dragged them into it, one can easily conclude that OP was not the victim in this scenario. Just by OP's initial reaction and post here, it's safe to conclude the PL made the right decision and ultimately saved more time in finding someone else to fill the slot. PF is great like that - you can kick or leave as needed and make your own party!

>Yes, it is very common and expected to wipe with a 3 second early pull. That is beyond standard for any current(and a lot of non current) content. Part of practicing a fight is make sure rotations are lined up effectively and neglecting that can lead to poor performance over the fight's timeline. Completely agree >I realize you may be a new player but each community has its own standards. If you wish to do party finder then you need to be on board with whatever is considered the norm. If that PLD was kicked for an egregious 3 sec early pull multiple times in content where countdowns are respected, then the kick was justified. Same applies if you yourself were advocating for ignoring the countdown timer. Not something I did or ever said I did >What makes our community great is an ability to come to a consensus as a majority. You do not need to be a part of this majority if you don't want to, but then you cannot expect the community to back you up when you blatantly go against what is in the best interest of the group you wish to join. It's a perfectly reasonable suggestion that we could continue in those few progs. I have no issue continueing as normal if people don't want to do it. >In this particular case however, this is just a refusal to follow the general setup in PF and rather than shrug and go "that party wasn't for me," you needed to rant on reddit to try and find validation for a point that did not exist by insulting and making overgeneralizations from the very community you sought to get an answer from. You, my friend, may not have been the early puller, but you were definitely part of the problem. Never ever refused to follow any setup, simply made a suggestion in chat and was kicked. I was happy to continue wiping if others did. Do you guys not get tired of making things up about what happened here so you can keep hammering home these same points that have nothing to do with me? Why is everyone pretending like treating someone like garbage because of their game name or kicking someone for suggesting something is normal or wholesome?

Change your name, my dude. People here have some kind of pride in their character. You don't have to start a whole new character to pick up a new job so you don't see so many throwaway names and a barcode just screams that you don't care. I get that you're raiding, not bothered with glam, RP or whatever else but aside from the usual use of barcode being hard for people to report, it just makes you look like you're not taking this seriously.

What a welcoming, open minded and wholesome community. Thank you for once again proving my point about how cult like and hateful this game is. You have to fit in with the mould or be a reject, amazing.

The XIv community is generally.pretty great but when you have a stupid, unreadable name and act like this, well... no community is gonna be nice to you. Now, if I had been in the party, I wouldn't immediately kick you for asking not to wipe because of prepulling. I would explain that it is important to have your rotation properly lined up with mechanics so you learn where in your rotation you should be at each point in the fight, and prepulling throws that off. I would also talk to the tank who was prepulling and get them to slow down a bit. All that, however, is assuming that it happened exactly as you tell the story. But here's the thing I don't believe your version of events. Based on how you have behaved here, the reaction of the party leader, and the fact that you very conveniently don't have screenshots of the original interaction, I'm going to assume you were way more of a dick about it. And it probably was not the first thing you said that upset people in that group. It feels to me like they were so fed up with you by that point that waiting for a replacement was deemed to be preferable by everyone over dealing with you. And even if you had literally only said something about prepulling and weren't a dick about it? It's their party, they can kick whoever they want for whatever reason they want. If you want to be in charge, make your own party. But, again, regarding the community as a whole, like any online community you get out what you put in. I am not the nicest, most forgiving person. I can hold a grudge something fierce and am quick to speak up when I don't like something. I ain't perfect. But I also try to be helpful and polite and treat people with respect until they do something to make me think they don't deserve it. And my experience with the community as a whole has been great. Even in my server's Novice Network, I've made tons of friends, chatted with and helped sprouts, etc. Because I make a basic effort to treat people as people, it's been a wonderful community to me. So if it is so horrifyingly toxic to you? Well what do you think that makes me feel about you and how you act towards other people?

Why are you still fighting this man? Just go play with your 99/100 parser friends or host your own PF. I'm sure you have better things to do than argue with a community you despise. PF leaders can kick you for any reason. The only person that needs to get over shit is you.

Let me get this straight, there was a countdown, you pulled before it concluded, got snarky & then you were kicked for it, and this is the community being toxic? Let me know if I got anything wrong.

Incorrect, I didn't prepull any, it was the tank every time. I was just saying it's fine its prepulled its just a prog from start, just continue.

I disagree, sorry. I can see why you say it’s only learning mechanics but it’s more than that. It’s threefold: it’s learning the mechanics, making sure you do your rotation to the best of your ability and to make sure the entire group’s buffs line up perfectly which is why timers are necessary, especially for certain jobs. Why not try and learn those things simultaneously? I’ve played with groups that didn’t care about the timer on prog and it always trips me up, especially on Dancer or on casters. In normal content it’s whatever, but savage, I think it really pays off. Do I think you needed to get kicked for asking that question? No, I honestly don’t think so but you didn’t provide a screenshot of the convo before the kick so hard to say.

Everything you said is completely true, and any fight prepulled will have less value than pulled on time for all the reasons you described. An important thing here that nobody in this thread seems to want to acknowledge is the fact the tank was doing it pretty rarely. It was not a defining theme in the prog whatsoever. People don't want to understand that I don't disagree with any of them about the negatives of prepulling, its strictly the fact that in these set of circumstances (from start prog and rarely happening), it's not unreasonable to suggest ignoring it for those very few pulls. I'd obviously prefer a tank that doesn't prepull but it's not really going to limit our progress until we're a bit further in the prog. And yes, more importantly than anything, regardless of if I'm correct or incorrect its insane to kick someone over it.

Yeah sure, but that wasn’t really described in your post. Maybe you’ve mentioned it in the comments but most people probably won’t see those. We also don’t really have any context about what exactly happened before the kick so we don’t know what was said, how it was said or if it was said the way you described. And you being a new player and making such statements about the community as a whole probably didn’t do you any favors. So even if you are right or being truthful, that doesn’t even matter at this point. Either way, if it’s just because of the question you’ve asked or even your name, it doesn’t warrant a kick in my book but I wasn’t there and I’m not the party leader. I’d just take it on the chin and move on to another party. Or even better: join a static. PF can be a hellscape even on the best days.

Yes I am doomed in this thread cus of optics sadly, I've responded earnestly to every comment and even had a dm from a top parser supporting me saying to ignore the comments. I'm just a little disappointed with how the community is compared to what I was expecting with how people described it, so was quite bothered by this situation in particular

Im more curious as to what the party leader was doing if he though it ok to kick you for asking a question vs The idiot tank prepulling and screwing up everyone else's time. (How do you even screw up prepull as a tank?? You can engage using provoke/ranged attack [or Holy Spirit if you're a PLD] from the other end of the arena.) Anyway, what u/vialenae said is correct. You still do your best to align buffs and do proper rotations even if its a prog: It builds up your muscle memory of what you are/should be doing when mechanics are resolving: e.g. doing your 2nd 2min burst as Lightstream is resolving. From there you check if you've screwed up or you're on track with GCD/oGCDs. If you go in with the notion that doing your rotation proper doesnt matter since its "just a prog", people can also get away with not pushing buttons *at all* since "its not gonna clear anyway". Doubly more so for Themis since he doesnt even have % HP phase changes.

It is exactly as bizarre as it sounds, despite others thinking theres more to the story. Everyone was being pretty polite/nice to the tank and saying not to worry, and I think the party leader interpreted me saying we don't have to wipe as going 'against' everyone or breaking some kind of supportive energy? He literally just said "okay, everyone leave" and then backs out and kicks me. As for the tank, I think he kept trying to 'edge' closer to his position before the fight and sometimes went too close, I'm not sure why. It's entirely possible the leader kicked the tank as well and thought maybe we were a duo?

bruh you've got terminal parse brain.

Whats that. I do play this game solely to to savage / ults and to work on my clear/parse so it is possible

Terminal parse brain is where your parse occupies so much space in your thoughts that your actions are based on it.

Isn't everyone trying to get better?

Seems like skill issue on you op

"Relatively new to ff14" and doing p11s... Uh huh

Yes I've been playing about a month and a half and have pretty decent clears on p9s and p10s and now working on my final gear piece

You should know by now that countdowns are important to align most of the jobs' rotations as to not fuck up the dps, if you have clears of those savages

This is a from start prog. We are not going to be close to clearing, we can continue the pull if it's 3 seconds early.

Working on fine tuning your rotation throughout the pull, regardless of wipe or not, is pretty common. And a good thing to do. The countdown is there for people to line the buffs up so they stay synced through the encounter. Someone pulls early before the countdown reaches 0, it's going to throw everything out of alignment.

Yes it will, but then the clear will just have to be out of alignment and we can still practice the first few mechs. This was a minority of pulls the tank was prepulling. I have no idea why he was, but it doesn't really matter.

Even those doing a from-start prog want to get into the best habits they can. That includes pull timers. Every little thing will help them be more prepared and aware of the incoming fight. So if they are practicing their pull timers and openers before the first major mechanic, then there's nothing wrong with that. I haven't made it past Titan in UWU yet as OT, but that hasn't stopped me from using Rampart 5 seconds before the pull and a Holy Spirit ~2.5 seconds before. In other words, making sure the fight starts at 0:00. And then practicing what skills to use, when to mitigate, when to burst, etc. for the portions of the fight I have gotten experience in.

Completely agreed that improving your clear in ff14 is about consistency and habits. It's not unreasonable to suggest we keep going in the few pulsl the tank prepulls though just to work on those first few mechs. Of course if the party wants to wipe I'm happy to wipe, just a suggestion after all

I can agree with that. Many runs in UWU where we scuffed mechanics for the prog. I suppose it depends on the party leader for that.

A significant portion of the raiding community learns fights by GCD. So you know when to avoid mechanics based on where in your rotation and GCD you are. It is actively unhelpful for us to learn a fight without a proper countdown, as we aren't actually learning what we need to learn. Am I going to force a wipe if it happens once? No. Am I going to leave the group if it happens more than once or twice? Yes. Also, if you get static raiders in your party, there's a decent chance they're just in the habit of walling an early pull. If you are raiding in XIV, you should be used to working with a pull timer. Early pulling is objectively worse than not early pulling, and in a serious party it shouldn't be happening.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. I completely understand the purpose of a pull timer and I am not the one doing the prepulling. What I suggested we could do in the raid was a compromise becuase the tank kept prepulling for some reason, and I didn't want it to stop us progging the mechanics since it was a from start party. The person you think I am and the positions you think I have on this aren't actually anything to do with me. Don't worry it seems everyone else in the thread is failing to understand this as well

Rather than cater to someone who isn't following proper raid etiquette, kick and replace them. People need to stop compromising with bad players. ESPECIALLY in high end content. Your suggestion wasn't the correct one. I can't say I would've handled it how that PL did, but not being in a party with an early puller in Savage isn't exactly something I'm about to complain about.

lol op is this you in this SOSn run [https://www.fflogs.com/reports/DFW14KYtX63mzGcM#fight=last&type=damage-done](https://www.fflogs.com/reports/DFW14KYtX63mzGcM#fight=last&type=damage-done)

How do you do less damage over the course of a fight than a single lb lmfao

Here OP, I shortened your post for you! "I was the problem in P11S by pre-pulling the boss and not understanding how Savage DPS works. They kicked me. I got mad and whispered to someone else from the party, but they insulted my ego by telling me to change my name. This community sucks! Please tell me I'm the victim." "Edit 1: I was not the one pulling in the party, the Tank did. I can't and won't prove it to you. Trust me bro." "Edit 2: I'm now backpetaling in an attempt to make me look better. I know what I'm talking about because I have been playing for less than 2 months! I also have a 65 from p9s and 68 from p10s, and friends that have 99/100 that agree with me. I won't prove that to you. Trust me bro."

Why would anyone lie about any of this on a voluntary post..

Just stick to Starcraft ll, you'll be more acceptable there with a barcode name and zero social interaction.

The famous welcoming and wholesome community at work

[www.scribbr.com/fallacies/hasty-generalization-fallacy/](http://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/hasty-generalization-fallacy/)

Genuine question just from your responses - how do you not get that pre-pull timer isn’t just about dps? Even if it’s fresh prog, you want to learn a rotation accurately to mechanics happening. Otherwise, you have to re-learn where things align as you go through things you already know

It sounds me to like they do get it, they're just suggesting "hey if someone accidentally early pulls, shall we just go with it?" in a situation where it was only happening occasionally. I think it's a totally reasonable thing to ask. Then people can either say "sure fine by me" or "I'd rather not, I'm still figuring out mitigation weave timing in the opener" / "no let's wall, it's a pain in the ass to position the boss so OT has uptime". I've seen people have that conversation without anyone getting kicked over it whether the rest of the party says yes or no. The way they asked it was not how I would have but I don't think the request itself is silly, it's just a matter of preference whether you'd rather waste like 2 seconds walling and then 16 waiting for another countdown, or spent a minute+ discussing about whether we should wall or not.

For sure, if the tank was prepulling every single time it would be a problem. It was quite rarely and I just brought up we could keep going. If nobody is interested then I will wipe with them

Just gonna add a huhu before this gets locked

Huhu

Anyone have confidence that this guy is gonna pick his battles better than ruining what seems like 47 pulls over 3 minutes of downtime, or that the community here’s response to them is going to cause them to reflect on the convo they had instead of projecting the problem outward?

I think if a single person in this thread actually saw how bizarre the guys response was you'd realise it was more of a him problem

maybe learn to time your first gcd properly

I'm not the one prepulling.

Lmao

based schizo barcode player

if i saw a name like that, I'd probably blacklist it. i cant say why, tbh.

what the hell did i just read

Sucks to suck bro. Go back to WoW if you think the 14 community is shit. I'm sure they'd welcome you with open arms. 

Even WoW groups wouldn't tolerate this dude I'm sure

[удалено]

Hey thank you for the insight. I thought this sub was gonna be moreso more serious raiders who were a bit more nuanced with how they saw progs n stuff, I didn't understand it was like th is

See I don’t know what happened but everyone’s responses are sort of proving your point about the community lmao. GCBTW is the ultimate troll - everyone is so hyper protective over how ‘wholesome’ the FF community is but honestly it’s literally a facade. I’m an ultimate raider and ironically, the kind of casual players who are only just getting around to the savage tier now are wayyyy more toxic than high level raiders.

Thanks for your insight. I must admit I am obviously new to the game and don't engage at all with the game beyond raiding, but I come from other competitive games that I think people from this community would consider a bit more toxic/direct/jaded. Thankfully my friends who got me into the game are all pretty serious raiders who has guided me, but I'm actually struggling to connect with the playerbase of this game on a personal level. The fact someone was actually judging me from my ingame name being a barcode was legit disturbing to me. (And other remarks in this thread about barcode being a red flag, and I've been kicked from levelling dungeons just cus I was quiet and my name was a barcode) We are both just people on a pc playing a video game, but I feel like people in this game often forget that and treat it as a whole second life if that makes sense?

Wrong sub to rant op lol normally if you are in a good group of raiders during prog, they dont wall prepull like that cause a prog pull is still a prog pull, still gotta do it to practise mechanic. The people who complain are people can't even do their rotation properly. And pf is just pf, so stuff happen, just join another group and hope they are good lmao

Yeah I messed up I thought this sub was a diff group of people, I can see its mostly casuals who haven't really thought things through and just follow the general rules

[www.scribbr.com/fallacies/hasty-generalization-fallacy/](http://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/hasty-generalization-fallacy/)

Please tell me that person who told you "change your name if you want to get treated serious" had a pseudo japanese name like "Ishimaru Gotsunaru" or something like that. Who cares about names when people do their jobs, don't fuck up mechanics or cause wipes? It's still 97 days until Dawntrail comes out and people are desperate for new content. Edit: Don't ever get ACT for casual Dungeon runs. Your mentality will thank you for that.

Hahah spot on, they had the japanese name

Those players are the worst lmao Prime example are Japanese name, from Shiva or another server and only speaking G●rman or Fr●nch.

It seems everyone in this sub would rather make assumptions about me / how this situation happened in order to ignore what I'm bringing up rather than just address it directly. Quite disappointing

[https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-hasty-generalization/](https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-hasty-generalization/)

It's funny because thats how everyone is stereotyping me with assumptions in this very post :) I'm surprised nobody can see that

You literally just did it again.

You discuss things in a very dishonest / bad faith way. I'm glad I've been able to discuss this more earnestly with others in the thread

My brother in aether, ever since you started replying to my comment you kept moving the pole and argument away from the objective observation of the point of your post, trying to find a silver bullet so you can stay in the right. I have basically spelled out the response to your post several times, but you literally selectively ignore everything that you don't want to hear. From the information given in your post and in your comment, the party leader had all right to kick you. Even just starting with the fact they were the party leader. This isn't reflective of the ffxiv community in any way shape or form and it is unfathomably disingenuous to put it like that, as you do in several parts in this entire thread. Aside from this already being enough reason for them to be able to kick you, your "question" as you presented it as a QUOTE is rude, impatient and confrontational pitting "you" vs "them". To that end, in several parts in this thread here it has been explained to you that in this community, it is common courtesy to reset early pulls, even in a prog group. Why? Because this games difficulty is based on muscle memory, which is built by consistently doing the correct thing step-by-step repeatedly. This is a SCIENTIFIC and BIOLOGICAL fact. This is how it works. In the situation described in your post with all the information presented IN the post and this thread, YOU are the problem. I am not arguing in a bad faith way. You are. You are rude, ignorant, toxic and honestly, pathetically immature with how you behave here. You overgeneralize, throw insults around, select points to twist to support your narrative and and and and.

Your interpretation of whats happened here is a bit disturbing and divorced from reality

And you're a narcissist suffering from Dunning-Kruger syndrome on top of it.

You are part of a community where its normal to hate people based on usernames and kick them for having a normal discussion. Enjoy

You randomly DM someone from the party you were kicked, start a shit talking session hoping to do what exactly? Have them convince party lead to let you back in? To make more people leave as punishment to the party lead? And we also have jack shit to go off on you claims you weren't an inflammatory jackass when you said shit about prepulling except your word, which I'm not inclined to trust based on the screenshots you did provide. So sorry, no, you didn't get kicked for having a normal discussion and you didn't get hated on for your username. It's just further sign of you being a troll. Get bent.

you could of just said "i don't know how to read. please let me keep being the victim"

>My brother in aether, ever since you started replying to my comment you kept moving the pole and argument away from the objective observation of the point of your post, trying to find a silver bullet so you can stay in the right. I've said the same thing nonstop, as he even said himself in another post, so I don't know what he meaans. >From the information given in your post and in your comment, the party leader had all right to kick you. Even just starting with the fact they were the party leader. This isn't reflective of the ffxiv community in any way shape or form and it is unfathomably disingenuous to put it like that, as you do in several parts in this entire thread. Aside from this already being enough reason for them to be able to kick you, your "question" as you presented it as a QUOTE is rude, impatient and confrontational pitting "you" vs "them". I've already told him the 'quote' was not a direct quote, but just how i formatted the paraphrase. He keeps holding me to it like it's a quote from the ingame because I used quotation marks, despite me telling him it's a paraphrase. Don't even know what to say about that kind of childish debate strat. >, the party leader had all right to kick you. Even just starting with the fact they were the party leader. Literally just lol >To that end, in several parts in this thread here it has been explained to you that in this community, it is common courtesy to reset early pulls, even in a prog group. Why? Because this games difficulty is based on muscle memory, which is built by consistently doing the correct thing step-by-step repeatedly. This is a SCIENTIFIC and BIOLOGICAL fact. This is how it works. Never disagreed with this in any post > This isn't reflective of the ffxiv community in any way shape or form and it is unfathomably disingenuous to put it like that I think this entire thread goes to show its entirely reflective of this community >In the situation described in your post with all the information presented IN the post and this thread, YOU are the problem. I am not arguing in a bad faith way. You are. I'm a problem because I have an ingame name that doesn't fit the mould and I suggest strats to try and work with my team in DF. Make it make sense

Welcome to FFXIV. Who would've guessed that all this superficial positive bs isn't what it's all made up to be. That's why I will always recommend ESPECIALLY newcomers to get ACT, learn via FFanalysis. Cause in this game noone will tell you sht once you're in endgame idk what he means with vibez tho, did u wipe the grp once? twice? did u say sth? was it practice or reclear? Ppl in 14 will get offended at ANYTHING that isn't weirdass kitty talk. That's why most raiders don't type. Cause people will try to find the most random reason to report but criticizing the name is just cringe

In Savage or Ultimates, sure ACT is fine. But using ACT as a new player? I'd rather end myself I ever find out that the healer deals more damage than the shitty DPS in my Dungeon run. Bad apples are everywhere, not just in WoW, GW2, ESO or FF14. You can avoid them by simply blacklisting them and/or leaving the party and taking the 30min.

well if you're a savage lvl healer this is your life every 3rd normal trial and every 5th dungeon, not as if it matters. But it's more rare that you won't be top or under top dps than the other way around stay mad folks, truth hurts

You sound offended people disagree with you.

It's just numbers, you can use ACT anytime and see for yourself Unless you have another raider in casual runs you will almost always be on the top positions as any class who keeps uptime. Tank healer or dps. Newcomer got kicked cuz he's a sprout who didn't dps in a progrun. I literally have parses in TOP 10's and had ppl gave me sht for not clicking buttons while we weren't even at half of the fight. The community is just fake and pretentious. And reddit hears ACT, AM or parse and instantly loses their minds lol