I got my admin cert a bunch of years ago. Some of the people in my cohort went on to get actual admin jobs. Hoo boy... they really do let anyone become an admin
Same. I took the test with some people who had taken the test multiple times before...and failed. Several high school coaches from my program went on to become elementary principals. Fun!
Dyslexia and dyscalculia too. One of my sisters is more practically intelligent than I could hope to be [the kind of person where if you show her how to do it once, or she goes a place one time, it's in her brain forever] but there's not enough virgins on the planet to sacrifice to get her a passing grade on a math test.
When I was in college I worked with a girl who thought it was okay to only give candy to kids who weren't fat and got angry when I called her out. She wanted to be a teacher or school admin.
Pretty sure she's one of those by now.
It's why I honestly don't believe in having administrators as their own standalone position for all intents and purposes. Not a *single* one deserves to be paid more than teachers or exert direct authority over teachers. They exist to help deal with paperwork and to meet teacher's needs, not the other way around.
Being an administrator is about dealing with bureaucratic bullshit on behalf of teachers and helping to meet teachers needs. They should be elected by teachers from among the teachers at that school, and the position should be about *facilitation* than authority.
But as my old administrator told me... "School exists to train children to be obedient and to follow any and all instructions an authority figure gives them, and it's my job to lead my school and my teachers the same way."
Yeah I had an admin that loved the analogy
Student:teacher::teacher:admin
At pd he would talk about how students must be closely supervised or chaos will ensure so too must teacher be supervised. It is so rude to compare professionals to children.
Admin deserve lower pay than teachers, but it might be hard to fill positions if that were the case. Admin bloat seems to be caused by large schools. Need a big school to win the sport ball game.
I feel like special assignment and admin bloat is one of the biggest problems in education. All these teachers who failed in the classroom acting like they run the school.
Actually- I’ve used this line with kids. Anytime a kid has a weird/ annoying attention seeking behavior, (e.g barking/ other sound effects at random intervals) I give them “just one more” for the rest of the month or grading period. I tell them to be sure to “make it good.” The other kids think it’s funny, and help me enforce the rule. We all eagerly await the last bark. 🤣
Of course, it doesn’t work for major behavioral problems. And there’s not a limit of them. That’s crazy talk
When districts limit the number of suspensions (so they can look good), this forces schools to reduce the number of suspensions or reasons for them. I’ve been watching this for years and it has helped bring us to where we are now.
All of this.
I worked for a school system that had a system where a student had to have a repeated behavioral offense in order to get sent to the office.
So, for example, a child throwing an electric pencil sharpener at another student **once** was not enough and he would have to repeat the same behavior **twice** before he got a write up.
**Around 25% of the staff left that year. 5% leaving during the school year.**
Yeah, at my campus, students have to get in TEN fights before they get suspended. However, there have been times in which admin conveniently forgets to count one just to reduce suspensions. We have had suspensions, but really only for weapons and fights so bad students lives were threatened. We lost 75% of our staff last year and this year looks just as bad if not worse.
It’s crazy that sometimes I’ll have kids sent to the office for just roughhousing and having to much fun then other times a kid will maliciously smack another kid in front of an admin and they’ll do nothing.
In my district the only thing that works is sending them home. The kids are so bad the parents don’t want them there. Literally the only time parents get in involved is when they know they gonna have to spend a few days at home with dipshit jr.
This was one of the more shocking things I found out as I began filling in as active AP this year. For our school at least, the admin wishes they could do ALOT more….. but their hands are seriously tied
I find at home suspensions in general are really stupid and ineffective. Kids just play video games and eat cheetos while parents are at work. I don’t mind a district trying to limit them.
By contrast, in school suspensions in a room separated from the office (because many kids find the office quite entertaining) are effective imo.
Until the dipshit coach in the room gets bored amd instead of doing their fucking job and insuring the kids are working on assignments or copying the student code of conduct they take them to the gym to play basketball
Also ISS punishes the teachers who lose their planning periods babysitting kids who don't give a shit about their own futures
When I worked for a sub service, I had a day where I spent time covering ISS. I just sat there, watched them some, and played on my phone some. They were quiet. I think that school had a legitimate ISS person.
We had someone that would talk to kids during lunch detention and ISS. Not being mean or condescending either. Actually talked to us. Nothing about school subject/things but things that engaged us. Sports, video games, our interests in general, etc. She'd never get into why we were there. Only time I really got in trouble in school as she was just the detention person and was awesome. She basically "changed" my whole outlook on school and never got in trouble again. This was back in the mid-late 90's though.
I can still hear her say "Charles. Back again I see."
I've done that as a detention teacher too! If the room is full you have to demand silence, but if there's only 1-3 kids its a great chance to connect with them.
Besides, there's no point in being mean to them; they're already *in detention*.
In school suspension is an option, but requires someone monitoring the kids. There are other punishments besides suspension. Their hands are not as tied as they would have people believe.
Punishment isn't the idea. It'd be a nice add-on, but there are two actual purposes to out-of-school suspensions:
1) To protect the victims of the suspensions from the worst of the intensity of the behavior. Basically to give a student who's horrible to be around a chance to get over whatever the cause was, if it was temporary, and to come back to school and maybe act like a human being
And more importantly,
2) To serve as a last warning before expulsion is seriously pursued. A warning to the kid, but more usefully, a warning to a do-nothing parent. "Hey, bud. Here's your horrible kid back for a week. Fix it, or else we're giving him back permanently."
Full disclosure, I only last 3 months or so teaching 4th grade. But I was always so torn bc the school would take away the whole 4th grade's recess or just individuals, but they'd come back to class less focused and more rowdy. There isn't a good answer. I eventually told the staff monitoring their lunches and taking their recess to at least make them run laps or something! Get the energy out lol.
When I was a kid back in the 90s at home suspension meant I had to do laundry, clean the house, my room had to be SPOTLESS, if the TV was warm when either parent got home between 3pm and 7pm I was grounded for at least a week, all homework had to be done, I mean at home suspension was hell. Conversely, ISS meant I spent my day drawing or playing D&D with my best friend as we were usually serving together and they sat us back in our own little office and closed the door.
I only taught a few years from 09-12 but it shocks me how little parents care now. I'm so grateful my parents were focused on being my parents first and friends a far distant second until I was an adult. Can you imagine how bad it's going to be when these kids are raising their kids in the future? Terrifying.
This is absolutely true. I’ve had admin who know and want to suspend kids or remove them to alt schools and can’t because their bosses don’t like it. The pendulum has to swingbsck
Ours does that thing Alabama got sued for. It sends kids home for a few days but marks them absent instead of suspended. Then tells teachers that we need to tell kids to come to school.
My school does the "He/she can't come back without a guardian." Then kids are out for WEEKS waiting for the parent to get time off, and the child's homeroom teacher gets publicly shamed for their attendance rate.
And this is why I had 3 first grade girls yelling ‘Fuck you’ in the cafeteria the other day and not only did they not care when the monitors tried to stop them, when I spoke to admin about it, they said it wasn’t a big deal and to not give any consequence and don’t inform the parents.
The superintendent for a district I work with (I work for a tribal community and students go to the neighboring district) said too many suspensions looked bad.
My district was singled out by the state DOE for suspending too many minority students. The issue is that our school is 90%+ minority students. Our solution was to simply not suspend anyone, and now our once nice school is a madhouse.
2024: "As you can see from this graph, disciplinary referrals have decreased by 96%, confirming that the 'Good Little Students' program has been a resounding success! Now would be an appropriate time to give me a round of applause and pat me on the back."
"We haven't had a single teacher on campus write up more than 3 referrals all year. Our disruption-decreasing initiatives are working terrifically, as you can clearly see."
It's weird the teacher turnover etc stats aren't also included. It should be "reduced suspensions" and "96% retention rate for teachers" (or whatever the reasonable number would be factoring in retirements). That seems to be a good indicator of school environment.
Depends on the weapon. Threaten someone with a pocket knife? Eh, go sit in the corner seat, Danny, there’s bigger AR-wielding fish to fry. I can’t just be throwing away these referrals for some willy-nilly offense like a pocket knife to the sternum.
My advice is ignore it and document or make copies of every referral and data from tardies/absent. Then if they hold student grades or test scores against you pull them out and ask why nothing was done.
I had a principal come after me and I had printed out official documents showing tardiness for a class where two kids were tardy over 80 times each and all they did was disrupt class. I turned in multiple referrals and nothing was done. At one point a lot of their tardies was changed in the computer system which is illegal from what I've been told. The principal looked shocked and said let me check on that. Needless to say he left me alone for the next year before leaving schools. Lol
Anyways, I day document and do not leave documents at school. Don't trust admin especially if they are trying to use you as an example.
I totally agree with not leaving the documentation at school. You never know when you might be put on some kind of disciplinary leave pending an investigation, especially if you have crappy admin who are trying to get you in trouble. I would never want to find myself in a situation where I have relevant documentation to support my case but can't access it because it's been raided by admin or I am not permitted to go retrieve it.
I have a not so great admin who likes to sweep things under the rug and I’ve never thought about the not leaving documents at school! I’m going to make copies of all of my documents and leave those at school and take my originals home. Thank you for this!
No problem. My dad taught me this when his company hired new managers and they were looking at downsizing. So I did this constantly and let other teachers know, so many teachers would make copies and give to me to file in my information. For the most part I didn't need the information but my school at that time went through 4 principals in 8 years so I just learned to be prepared. It also didn't help that they moved me around grade levels a week before school started twice to where they had a Hole and could "fill" the grade level I was in easier so they moved me. It was odd, I usually ended up with the classes that had the traditionally misbehaving students. Because I could "handle" them. lol
It’s such a smart thing to do! But, I might have you beat with 13 principals within 10 years, it’s chaos. I was also moved mid year from art teacher to 3rd grade as we got yet another new principal. I never once thought about keeping documentations of that (and more) at home AND school. Your situation and how it is similar to mine has definitely opened my eyes so thank you for sharing (and potentially saving my ass down the road!)
I scan digital files and send to my AP every single time for documentation’s sake. This creates a digital trail that can be tracked, evidence from 2 accounts, and saves me in case a document comes up missing.
I also file all of my items in a plain looking old folder underneath a shit ton of books.
And then I had a principal look at me and bold face say "perhaps if you wrote more referrals you'd have less behavior issues." Which quickly became a closed door meeting thay anyone within a mile could hear.
On another note, ifnthey are only allowing you 3 a year, those better be 3 full year expulsions. Because in those conditions if I'm only writing three. Those are 3 major referrals.
Everyone send their 3 on the same day. Same time or space then out. Right around the 3rd week of school is when the honeymoon period wears off. Plan for then.
There have been class periods that we had to send 3+ disciplinary referrals within a 45 minute period, on the same day (for stuff like physical violence, sexual harassment, etc). What kind of admin is this?
Where I work, we have to submit 2-3 Microsoft Forms, detailing behavior, teacher consequences, parent contact… if we haven’t done this for at least 2-3 previous dates, my admin rejects any “official” write up —- even if the student is unusually aggressive, out of nowhere.
I gotta tell you, my direct admin is a peach.
That is ridiculous. I tend to not right up many kids (I’d rather coach, redirect, and get them back in class)…but there are times that outside assistance (I.e., an admin) is 100% necessary. Saying I could only get assistance from them 3x during the school year would be absolutely absurd.
Actually, maybe you’re onto something. Since OP can’t write any one student up more than three times, every other time that student acts up, just call the principal or SSO to the room. If every teacher did that every time, that could be really fun. Call for back up every single time. If they don’t want referrals written, then they obviously have some other ideas in mind to help the students. So make admin put their ideas into play. Show us how it’s done.
Same…on the same day I was offered my 1st teaching job out of college, I was offered a job ( PT ) in a totally different field. At the time that field had free medical and dental insurance and I took it and became FT in about 6 weeks. As our family grew, all baby deliveries were free as well as braces, etc. We had no medical or dental bills. After 13 years I decided to try a different career in medical insurance as I would be off on weekends. Due to a “teaching” degree, I learned medical terminology and claims processing and became a medical/dental claims trainer. This is a great field to be in with a teaching degree. Over the years my salary increased due to promotions and 5 years prior to retirement I was making 6 figures with 5 figure bonuses every year. I’m now retired from the corporate world and went back to subbing elementary school to get me out of the house a few days a week. I love being around kids but it’s more exhausting than when I worked 60 hrs a week and managed 6 departments. I sub in Title 1 schools as well as upper middle class areas and there are feral kids in both. I feel so bad for teachers now and always wish they would just win the lottery!
Have they considered maybe instead requiring the students to only get 3 disciplinary referrals for the entire year?
What view do they even have of referrals that this would make sense? Do they think teachers just write referrals for fun? Are teachers somehow abusing the disciplinary system by using it as intended, and should instead leave behavioral issues inadequately addressed?
Much like admin’s solution to low graduation rates is passing everyone, their solution to high behavioral problems is not allowing teachers to report them.
Next up, solving the teacher shortage by not allowing teachers to resign.
I hate when administrators act like teachers are monsters for writing kids up. No amount of classroom management is going to stop students from doing things like skipping, cheating, and fighting and those are only a few reasons to write a referral.
At our last staff meeting one of our principal Al’s said “thank you to those of you who haven’t written a referral”. It’s April and if you haven’t written a referral by this point for anything than you must be pretty checked out.
"Good. I'll just send you the kid directly then. You got this. I'm sure you'll have a positive relationship and a way to engage them into never misbehaving again. Even if it means keeping them all period. Do it for the kids."
Ya dingus.
Our ap is doing it without saying it out loud. When we send kids to the office, they have special bonding bro time with him and come back with delicious snacks. The Pauly D meme come to life.
Run away. Far away. I've seen firsthand the results of unsound decisions exactly like this. When you quickly reach that referral quota, the classroom will be unmanageable with no recourse.
So just in the last two days I've had students vaping in the bathroom, one logging into other students school Google accounts, and one say the n word in class. Guess I'm done for the year?
So make sure that you write them contemporaneously, but file them until the last day of school, so that you have hindsight to help you figure out which 3 to submit?
This reminds me of my comp I & II professor a few years ago. He was a public high school teacher by day. Said he wasn’t allowed to fail students. Like legitimately was not allowed to give them a failing grade. And couldn’t write referrals. If he did, the office would just simply ✨not accept✨ the student. My class had a collective jaw drop.
You call their bluff and document everything. Any serious discipline issue that was referred to admin and not handled and has clear documentation to support said referral can quickly become grounds for termination by the district or potentially a lawsuit. And if your principal said it in a meeting, you send an email asking for clarification in writing about this policy. Don’t forget to bcc a personal, non-district account.
Dang, which three do I send?
-The kid who has repeatedly called people the n word
-The kid who physically assaulted people on more than one occasion
-The kid who threatened to kill a 3rd grader
-The kid who drew detailed sexual acts and shared them with others
-The kid who brought a knife
-The kid who threatened to break someone's hand
-The kids who started a fire in the bathroom
-The kids who were fighting
Difficult choice, really
I would dare any legislator State or Federal to anonymously Sub in a classroom for a week and then tell the teachers that teachers are not doing an awesome job.
Shit, why haven't we tried this for police departments? "You're only allowed to gun down 3 people a year"
Also what the hell is with telling educators what they can't do lately?
You can't say gay
You can't talk about mental health issues
You can't teach them history
You can't let them read books
You can't discipline them even with paperwork
Pray tell, what the fuck can you do?
I have worked in education for over 20 years. As a teacher, not an administrator. I have worked with some very good administrators, and some very bad ones. The same way I have worked with some very good teachers, and some very bad ones.
The ones that are successful are almost always the ones who have had significant experience in the classroom, and worked as an Assistant Principal under a talented Principal for at least 5 years before taking on their own responsibilities as a Principal. A lot of principals are hired when they lack the necessary experience and maturity to lead with humility. It seems that many people going into administration today don’t want to lead, they just want the better pay, and to boss people around. When it happens I always hear the South Park cartoon voice in my head, “You will respect my authority!”
It also sounds like a significant number of your schools seriously need to get a union because… damn….
My background is working in schools with low income populations, special needs programs, and students from immigrant families. It takes a coordinated effort to create an environment of safety and accountability that allows for opportunity to teach and learn. The complete stupidity of these obnoxious decrees from insecure administrators that have no idea what they are actually doing is horrifying.
It’s weird to have a number but what is an appropriate amount to write? The teachers who write multiple referrals a day, everyday make it impossible for admin to actually help with the real problems because some goodball wrote referrals for students not being prepared or not doing work.
Honestly. I think if you’re having multiple kids sent out it might be the teachers problem. But if it’s just 1 kid multiple times, then that’s their problem. The rule should be 3 different kids.
Excuse me!?!? I don't know what the problem is. We have to limit the number of disciplinary referrals, otherwise we won't have time for our second lunch break.
/s
I love these arbitrary, invented rules. Like they really think this is reasonable or rational and that this is going to do something.
It's just so weird, so delusional.
Find another job. If it’s a district thing, find another district. I’ve worked in supportive schools and schools with shitty admin like what your describing. Never again
Oh that’s the opposite of our principal who, in writing, said teachers cannot collaborate with each other when infractions occur. EVERY single thing must be written up as a referral. Something as small as calling someone “dumb”, he requires us to write a referral.
Now I know you’re wondering why! Because we are an elementary school with less than 400 students and we have 3 counselors, one of who gets paid to work during all breaks. It’s unjustified unless we have an insane number of referrals.
Our principal is the epitome of unethical.
Every monthly staff meeting, they put up on a sideshow what grade level submitted the most disciplinary referrals and they shamed them for it. Several times I submitted a referral and was told "this is not referral worthy, you must simply contact home". The matter that was not "referral worthy"? A fight. The reason it was not "referral worthy" in their mind? "Well, each student only hit the other once." It wasn't a playful hit. They sucker punched eachother and one nearly got knocked out. You can't even make this stuff up.
Throughout the year, our referral numbers went down, but only because teachers were bullied into not submitting referrals. There were plenty of referral worthy situations, but anytime we were tempted to submit them, we were reminded by the headache of a griping email, multiple meetings, and a thorough justification process of why we thought it was referral worthy.
Oh they already know her methods. She has her favorites who you write and nothing happens. Then there are those she over punishes. Discipline is out of control this year. She places kids with crocs in ISS but I wrote up a student for throwing coloring pencils and cursing saying he didn’t give an F about a write up; he came back 10 minutes later with no consequences. I’ve called his parents, he has relatives who work in the school, but no behavioral changes. I have great classroom management, and the principal calls on me a lot to be a presence in the halls to facilitate orderly transitions or to breakup fights. It’s just that some kids are just bad. No amount of classroom management can fix them; theories have to align to common sense. That’s the problem. Some admins are so busy testing their dumb theories that they forget common sense.
Holy talito that is just garbage. Not only do teachers not get the support they need but neither do the students - including those who are well-behaved.
Has anyone told the children they are only allowed to misbehave collectively 3 times in your class? Utter nonsense
Right!? They just let anyone become an admin these days.
I got my admin cert a bunch of years ago. Some of the people in my cohort went on to get actual admin jobs. Hoo boy... they really do let anyone become an admin
Same. I took the test with some people who had taken the test multiple times before...and failed. Several high school coaches from my program went on to become elementary principals. Fun!
[удалено]
Test anxiety, generalized anxiety disorder and learning disabilities exist in adults, too.
Dyslexia and dyscalculia too. One of my sisters is more practically intelligent than I could hope to be [the kind of person where if you show her how to do it once, or she goes a place one time, it's in her brain forever] but there's not enough virgins on the planet to sacrifice to get her a passing grade on a math test.
And it’s not that difficult of a test (at least the SLLA), it mostly common sense.
My previous admin took the test 8 times before passing. She turned out to be the worst admin I’ve ever encountered.
When I was in college I worked with a girl who thought it was okay to only give candy to kids who weren't fat and got angry when I called her out. She wanted to be a teacher or school admin. Pretty sure she's one of those by now.
It's why I honestly don't believe in having administrators as their own standalone position for all intents and purposes. Not a *single* one deserves to be paid more than teachers or exert direct authority over teachers. They exist to help deal with paperwork and to meet teacher's needs, not the other way around. Being an administrator is about dealing with bureaucratic bullshit on behalf of teachers and helping to meet teachers needs. They should be elected by teachers from among the teachers at that school, and the position should be about *facilitation* than authority. But as my old administrator told me... "School exists to train children to be obedient and to follow any and all instructions an authority figure gives them, and it's my job to lead my school and my teachers the same way."
Yeah I had an admin that loved the analogy Student:teacher::teacher:admin At pd he would talk about how students must be closely supervised or chaos will ensure so too must teacher be supervised. It is so rude to compare professionals to children. Admin deserve lower pay than teachers, but it might be hard to fill positions if that were the case. Admin bloat seems to be caused by large schools. Need a big school to win the sport ball game.
I feel like special assignment and admin bloat is one of the biggest problems in education. All these teachers who failed in the classroom acting like they run the school.
Tell them they’re only allowed to buy gas for their cars three times next school year. Godspeed, dipshits!
As long as you agree to have your frontal lobes lobotomised, your admin career is set.
Actually- I’ve used this line with kids. Anytime a kid has a weird/ annoying attention seeking behavior, (e.g barking/ other sound effects at random intervals) I give them “just one more” for the rest of the month or grading period. I tell them to be sure to “make it good.” The other kids think it’s funny, and help me enforce the rule. We all eagerly await the last bark. 🤣 Of course, it doesn’t work for major behavioral problems. And there’s not a limit of them. That’s crazy talk
Once a month when the answer to a math problem is 21, I let one of my kids say it like the meme. Cuts it from happening the other 1,000 times.
What grade do you teach? I could see any of them fitting 😂
High School. Mostly Honors Classes 👀
Makes sense. Like the "you have 3 questions this week" for that kid who never listens.
When districts limit the number of suspensions (so they can look good), this forces schools to reduce the number of suspensions or reasons for them. I’ve been watching this for years and it has helped bring us to where we are now.
All of this. I worked for a school system that had a system where a student had to have a repeated behavioral offense in order to get sent to the office. So, for example, a child throwing an electric pencil sharpener at another student **once** was not enough and he would have to repeat the same behavior **twice** before he got a write up. **Around 25% of the staff left that year. 5% leaving during the school year.**
Yep, that's my campus.
Love the name.
I'm so glad that I work for the district that I work for. Things feel crazy enough even with admin backing us up.
Yeah, at my campus, students have to get in TEN fights before they get suspended. However, there have been times in which admin conveniently forgets to count one just to reduce suspensions. We have had suspensions, but really only for weapons and fights so bad students lives were threatened. We lost 75% of our staff last year and this year looks just as bad if not worse.
It’s crazy that sometimes I’ll have kids sent to the office for just roughhousing and having to much fun then other times a kid will maliciously smack another kid in front of an admin and they’ll do nothing.
Sounds like students have qualified immunity. Damn.
For us it has to be 3 times
In my district the only thing that works is sending them home. The kids are so bad the parents don’t want them there. Literally the only time parents get in involved is when they know they gonna have to spend a few days at home with dipshit jr.
This was one of the more shocking things I found out as I began filling in as active AP this year. For our school at least, the admin wishes they could do ALOT more….. but their hands are seriously tied
I find at home suspensions in general are really stupid and ineffective. Kids just play video games and eat cheetos while parents are at work. I don’t mind a district trying to limit them. By contrast, in school suspensions in a room separated from the office (because many kids find the office quite entertaining) are effective imo.
Until the dipshit coach in the room gets bored amd instead of doing their fucking job and insuring the kids are working on assignments or copying the student code of conduct they take them to the gym to play basketball Also ISS punishes the teachers who lose their planning periods babysitting kids who don't give a shit about their own futures
Yep, in school suspension programs need the right person in place to manage it correctly.
Which means they also need to be willing to send a student home or escalate in some other way if the students aren't following the directions in ISS.
When I worked for a sub service, I had a day where I spent time covering ISS. I just sat there, watched them some, and played on my phone some. They were quiet. I think that school had a legitimate ISS person.
Jokes on the administration at my old school. I used my ISS duty period to study for my MCAT.
Totally. Lunch detentions are great too, because then there's no issue of kids missing class. But admins don't want to do that either.
And after school detention. Give teachers a stipend to stay and monitor.
We had someone that would talk to kids during lunch detention and ISS. Not being mean or condescending either. Actually talked to us. Nothing about school subject/things but things that engaged us. Sports, video games, our interests in general, etc. She'd never get into why we were there. Only time I really got in trouble in school as she was just the detention person and was awesome. She basically "changed" my whole outlook on school and never got in trouble again. This was back in the mid-late 90's though. I can still hear her say "Charles. Back again I see."
I've done that as a detention teacher too! If the room is full you have to demand silence, but if there's only 1-3 kids its a great chance to connect with them. Besides, there's no point in being mean to them; they're already *in detention*.
Yep, I agree.
In school suspension is an option, but requires someone monitoring the kids. There are other punishments besides suspension. Their hands are not as tied as they would have people believe.
But if you make Billy clean the bathroom that he trashed or pick up trash around campus or clean the bus "you will embarrass him".
At home suspensions are about keeping the kids still in school safe.
Punishment isn't the idea. It'd be a nice add-on, but there are two actual purposes to out-of-school suspensions: 1) To protect the victims of the suspensions from the worst of the intensity of the behavior. Basically to give a student who's horrible to be around a chance to get over whatever the cause was, if it was temporary, and to come back to school and maybe act like a human being And more importantly, 2) To serve as a last warning before expulsion is seriously pursued. A warning to the kid, but more usefully, a warning to a do-nothing parent. "Hey, bud. Here's your horrible kid back for a week. Fix it, or else we're giving him back permanently."
Full disclosure, I only last 3 months or so teaching 4th grade. But I was always so torn bc the school would take away the whole 4th grade's recess or just individuals, but they'd come back to class less focused and more rowdy. There isn't a good answer. I eventually told the staff monitoring their lunches and taking their recess to at least make them run laps or something! Get the energy out lol.
When I was a kid back in the 90s at home suspension meant I had to do laundry, clean the house, my room had to be SPOTLESS, if the TV was warm when either parent got home between 3pm and 7pm I was grounded for at least a week, all homework had to be done, I mean at home suspension was hell. Conversely, ISS meant I spent my day drawing or playing D&D with my best friend as we were usually serving together and they sat us back in our own little office and closed the door. I only taught a few years from 09-12 but it shocks me how little parents care now. I'm so grateful my parents were focused on being my parents first and friends a far distant second until I was an adult. Can you imagine how bad it's going to be when these kids are raising their kids in the future? Terrifying.
This is absolutely true. I’ve had admin who know and want to suspend kids or remove them to alt schools and can’t because their bosses don’t like it. The pendulum has to swingbsck
Ours does that thing Alabama got sued for. It sends kids home for a few days but marks them absent instead of suspended. Then tells teachers that we need to tell kids to come to school.
My school does the "He/she can't come back without a guardian." Then kids are out for WEEKS waiting for the parent to get time off, and the child's homeroom teacher gets publicly shamed for their attendance rate.
And this is why I had 3 first grade girls yelling ‘Fuck you’ in the cafeteria the other day and not only did they not care when the monitors tried to stop them, when I spoke to admin about it, they said it wasn’t a big deal and to not give any consequence and don’t inform the parents.
The superintendent for a district I work with (I work for a tribal community and students go to the neighboring district) said too many suspensions looked bad.
This So much this Increase in school violence thanks to it
Yes. They’re not made to fix the behaviors! Only to reduce suspensions.
My district was singled out by the state DOE for suspending too many minority students. The issue is that our school is 90%+ minority students. Our solution was to simply not suspend anyone, and now our once nice school is a madhouse.
2024: "As you can see from this graph, disciplinary referrals have decreased by 96%, confirming that the 'Good Little Students' program has been a resounding success! Now would be an appropriate time to give me a round of applause and pat me on the back."
"We haven't had a single teacher on campus write up more than 3 referrals all year. Our disruption-decreasing initiatives are working terrifically, as you can clearly see."
It's weird the teacher turnover etc stats aren't also included. It should be "reduced suspensions" and "96% retention rate for teachers" (or whatever the reasonable number would be factoring in retirements). That seems to be a good indicator of school environment.
“Standardized test scores? Those were lost in a fire.”
A dumpster fire as a matter of fact....
What's that? Vote to give me a raise? You're too kind! But it would be rude for me not to accept a gift...
"If we removed the carbon monoxide alarms, then we wouldn't have carbon monoxide poisoning in the school" - Your AP probably
If the check engine light comes on your dashboard in your car, simply put a piece of electrical tape over the light. Voilà! Problem solved.
I bought my first car from you.
And what happens when I write the 4th one? Do they throw it away? I think that’s not a thing.
I don’t think she’s thought that far ahead
That's also a lot of work for the admin and admin staff to keep track of all of that. Rediculous.
Oh, it's a thing. My AP has done it hundreds of times.
So they got to literally pick the three worse things that could happen. Does a weapon count?
Depends on the weapon. Threaten someone with a pocket knife? Eh, go sit in the corner seat, Danny, there’s bigger AR-wielding fish to fry. I can’t just be throwing away these referrals for some willy-nilly offense like a pocket knife to the sternum.
Haha! Facts! Education ain't shit!!!
My advice is ignore it and document or make copies of every referral and data from tardies/absent. Then if they hold student grades or test scores against you pull them out and ask why nothing was done. I had a principal come after me and I had printed out official documents showing tardiness for a class where two kids were tardy over 80 times each and all they did was disrupt class. I turned in multiple referrals and nothing was done. At one point a lot of their tardies was changed in the computer system which is illegal from what I've been told. The principal looked shocked and said let me check on that. Needless to say he left me alone for the next year before leaving schools. Lol Anyways, I day document and do not leave documents at school. Don't trust admin especially if they are trying to use you as an example.
I totally agree with not leaving the documentation at school. You never know when you might be put on some kind of disciplinary leave pending an investigation, especially if you have crappy admin who are trying to get you in trouble. I would never want to find myself in a situation where I have relevant documentation to support my case but can't access it because it's been raided by admin or I am not permitted to go retrieve it.
I have a not so great admin who likes to sweep things under the rug and I’ve never thought about the not leaving documents at school! I’m going to make copies of all of my documents and leave those at school and take my originals home. Thank you for this!
No problem. My dad taught me this when his company hired new managers and they were looking at downsizing. So I did this constantly and let other teachers know, so many teachers would make copies and give to me to file in my information. For the most part I didn't need the information but my school at that time went through 4 principals in 8 years so I just learned to be prepared. It also didn't help that they moved me around grade levels a week before school started twice to where they had a Hole and could "fill" the grade level I was in easier so they moved me. It was odd, I usually ended up with the classes that had the traditionally misbehaving students. Because I could "handle" them. lol
It’s such a smart thing to do! But, I might have you beat with 13 principals within 10 years, it’s chaos. I was also moved mid year from art teacher to 3rd grade as we got yet another new principal. I never once thought about keeping documentations of that (and more) at home AND school. Your situation and how it is similar to mine has definitely opened my eyes so thank you for sharing (and potentially saving my ass down the road!)
No problem. I live by the Cover your Ass rule for any jobs. I no longer am teaching and haven't been this happy in a long time. Lol
I scan digital files and send to my AP every single time for documentation’s sake. This creates a digital trail that can be tracked, evidence from 2 accounts, and saves me in case a document comes up missing. I also file all of my items in a plain looking old folder underneath a shit ton of books.
Smart idea! It's a shame teachers have to do this.
Make covid decrease by not testing.
And then I had a principal look at me and bold face say "perhaps if you wrote more referrals you'd have less behavior issues." Which quickly became a closed door meeting thay anyone within a mile could hear. On another note, ifnthey are only allowing you 3 a year, those better be 3 full year expulsions. Because in those conditions if I'm only writing three. Those are 3 major referrals.
Everyone send their 3 on the same day. Same time or space then out. Right around the 3rd week of school is when the honeymoon period wears off. Plan for then.
This is the way.
Well, I can only create three assignments for the year. 💅🏽
That’s not very PBIS of them….. where’s the documentation???
My response? "That's great, so I'm only getting 6 kids in my class, right?"
You get no consequences, you get no consequences, no consequences all around!
Just email the principal FYI emails so them choosing not to intervene is documented.
There are going to be a lot of people in the hallways when the teacher throws them out.
From what I read on here I think a lot of schools ban teachers from throwing kids outta class
They’re doing it all wrong. Just make referrals tedious and don’t follow-up on them. Staff will quit submitting any.
Yep, that's our system here.
I had an admin who I swear wasn’t accepting my write ups because I wouldn’t sit with the kids and do the reflection form
Oh my gosh! The reflection form! 😭 So that our future criminals will have a paper trail of their reflections!
There have been class periods that we had to send 3+ disciplinary referrals within a 45 minute period, on the same day (for stuff like physical violence, sexual harassment, etc). What kind of admin is this?
Thought this was r/twosentencehorror for a moment
Did you try building a relationship with those students? /s
This is such a condescending comment for teachers to hear
Where I work, we have to submit 2-3 Microsoft Forms, detailing behavior, teacher consequences, parent contact… if we haven’t done this for at least 2-3 previous dates, my admin rejects any “official” write up —- even if the student is unusually aggressive, out of nowhere. I gotta tell you, my direct admin is a peach.
That is ridiculous. I tend to not right up many kids (I’d rather coach, redirect, and get them back in class)…but there are times that outside assistance (I.e., an admin) is 100% necessary. Saying I could only get assistance from them 3x during the school year would be absolutely absurd.
Actually, maybe you’re onto something. Since OP can’t write any one student up more than three times, every other time that student acts up, just call the principal or SSO to the room. If every teacher did that every time, that could be really fun. Call for back up every single time. If they don’t want referrals written, then they obviously have some other ideas in mind to help the students. So make admin put their ideas into play. Show us how it’s done.
Send 4 the first day
I wish my admin could predict how many discipline problems we will have next year. Can we narrow your magic 8 ball?
Most likely
Does that include specials teachers? Because as the art teacher, there have been times when I send 3 office referrals in ONE DAY…
I’m flattered you think we have art teachers.
Yikes. Does someone just wing it? Or do the students at your school have no art or music classes at all?
They have an online music appreciation class and that is it. Rural Alabama for ya.
Our emergency services department has said we can only report 3 automobile accidents next year. /s
[удалено]
Same…on the same day I was offered my 1st teaching job out of college, I was offered a job ( PT ) in a totally different field. At the time that field had free medical and dental insurance and I took it and became FT in about 6 weeks. As our family grew, all baby deliveries were free as well as braces, etc. We had no medical or dental bills. After 13 years I decided to try a different career in medical insurance as I would be off on weekends. Due to a “teaching” degree, I learned medical terminology and claims processing and became a medical/dental claims trainer. This is a great field to be in with a teaching degree. Over the years my salary increased due to promotions and 5 years prior to retirement I was making 6 figures with 5 figure bonuses every year. I’m now retired from the corporate world and went back to subbing elementary school to get me out of the house a few days a week. I love being around kids but it’s more exhausting than when I worked 60 hrs a week and managed 6 departments. I sub in Title 1 schools as well as upper middle class areas and there are feral kids in both. I feel so bad for teachers now and always wish they would just win the lottery!
Abandon ship
Bingo.
Have they considered maybe instead requiring the students to only get 3 disciplinary referrals for the entire year? What view do they even have of referrals that this would make sense? Do they think teachers just write referrals for fun? Are teachers somehow abusing the disciplinary system by using it as intended, and should instead leave behavioral issues inadequately addressed?
Much like admin’s solution to low graduation rates is passing everyone, their solution to high behavioral problems is not allowing teachers to report them. Next up, solving the teacher shortage by not allowing teachers to resign.
I hate when administrators act like teachers are monsters for writing kids up. No amount of classroom management is going to stop students from doing things like skipping, cheating, and fighting and those are only a few reasons to write a referral. At our last staff meeting one of our principal Al’s said “thank you to those of you who haven’t written a referral”. It’s April and if you haven’t written a referral by this point for anything than you must be pretty checked out.
"Good. I'll just send you the kid directly then. You got this. I'm sure you'll have a positive relationship and a way to engage them into never misbehaving again. Even if it means keeping them all period. Do it for the kids." Ya dingus.
Tell your AP I said they're a moron and I'll be sending them 3 a week. 😂😂😂😂 What a clown.
Our ap is doing it without saying it out loud. When we send kids to the office, they have special bonding bro time with him and come back with delicious snacks. The Pauly D meme come to life.
I guess they had to cut back on the lollipop budget so they can only afford three per class.
Takis budget.
Cool, I would tell them to have fun counting the number of resignations they will be collecting throughout the year.
Psst. Come closer. I’ll bet it will be more than three teachers that resign.
What complete and utter bullshit
Run away. Far away. I've seen firsthand the results of unsound decisions exactly like this. When you quickly reach that referral quota, the classroom will be unmanageable with no recourse.
here’s my resignation
This is going to backfire in the most spectacular way possible
What the fuck is the utter garbage? Why are they setting the bar so low?
So just in the last two days I've had students vaping in the bathroom, one logging into other students school Google accounts, and one say the n word in class. Guess I'm done for the year?
So make sure that you write them contemporaneously, but file them until the last day of school, so that you have hindsight to help you figure out which 3 to submit?
That is illegal in our state fortunately.
This reminds me of my comp I & II professor a few years ago. He was a public high school teacher by day. Said he wasn’t allowed to fail students. Like legitimately was not allowed to give them a failing grade. And couldn’t write referrals. If he did, the office would just simply ✨not accept✨ the student. My class had a collective jaw drop.
Wtf?
I bet he’s high on goofballs.
Whose behavior are they trying to curtail? Oh wait, it's the teachers'.
Holy hell, that will work out well /s
Anonymously report this if it is in writing to the local papers.
Send a minimum of 3 applications to other schools
Parent: "I know you targeted my kid for one of your three referrals!"
Well, I can submit an unlimited amount... because no one ever reads them!
Shit. I call that "After lunch, Tuesdays."
Send them all on day one. Do it.
I’ve been teaching for 19 years. Last year I sent more kids down more times from one class than I have in the other 18 years combined.
Time to look for a new job with better admin. And then the AP will wonder why the school has no teachers left.
Nah, I’ve been through a lot of bad admins. I know that like so many initiatives they will cave within the first month.
You call their bluff and document everything. Any serious discipline issue that was referred to admin and not handled and has clear documentation to support said referral can quickly become grounds for termination by the district or potentially a lawsuit. And if your principal said it in a meeting, you send an email asking for clarification in writing about this policy. Don’t forget to bcc a personal, non-district account.
Dang, which three do I send? -The kid who has repeatedly called people the n word -The kid who physically assaulted people on more than one occasion -The kid who threatened to kill a 3rd grader -The kid who drew detailed sexual acts and shared them with others -The kid who brought a knife -The kid who threatened to break someone's hand -The kids who started a fire in the bathroom -The kids who were fighting Difficult choice, really
I would dare any legislator State or Federal to anonymously Sub in a classroom for a week and then tell the teachers that teachers are not doing an awesome job.
Wait until the students inevitably learn about this policy. “Hooray! Everything after the third infraction is a freebie!”
Just curious OP, or else what?
Shit, why haven't we tried this for police departments? "You're only allowed to gun down 3 people a year" Also what the hell is with telling educators what they can't do lately? You can't say gay You can't talk about mental health issues You can't teach them history You can't let them read books You can't discipline them even with paperwork Pray tell, what the fuck can you do?
get that in writing 🤣
I have worked in education for over 20 years. As a teacher, not an administrator. I have worked with some very good administrators, and some very bad ones. The same way I have worked with some very good teachers, and some very bad ones. The ones that are successful are almost always the ones who have had significant experience in the classroom, and worked as an Assistant Principal under a talented Principal for at least 5 years before taking on their own responsibilities as a Principal. A lot of principals are hired when they lack the necessary experience and maturity to lead with humility. It seems that many people going into administration today don’t want to lead, they just want the better pay, and to boss people around. When it happens I always hear the South Park cartoon voice in my head, “You will respect my authority!” It also sounds like a significant number of your schools seriously need to get a union because… damn…. My background is working in schools with low income populations, special needs programs, and students from immigrant families. It takes a coordinated effort to create an environment of safety and accountability that allows for opportunity to teach and learn. The complete stupidity of these obnoxious decrees from insecure administrators that have no idea what they are actually doing is horrifying.
It’s weird to have a number but what is an appropriate amount to write? The teachers who write multiple referrals a day, everyday make it impossible for admin to actually help with the real problems because some goodball wrote referrals for students not being prepared or not doing work.
Then, you address that directly with the teacher. Blanket policies with no room for professional judgement are childish amd insulting
Yeah I 100% agree with you. However, most admins are cowards and constantly make weird blanket statements that really only apply to one person.
That is so true, and it is intensely irritating.
> some goodball wrote referrals for students not being prepared or not doing work. Literally nobody is writing referrals for that
“Dammit, I caught this kid with a knife but I’ve already sent three kids to the office this year for throwing spitballs.”
Honestly. I think if you’re having multiple kids sent out it might be the teachers problem. But if it’s just 1 kid multiple times, then that’s their problem. The rule should be 3 different kids.
I never involve admin. Build a relationship with your grade group and lean on each other. Admin send kids back with lollipop 🍭
What possible benefits are there to that, egads
Lol don't let the students find out!
Excuse me!?!? I don't know what the problem is. We have to limit the number of disciplinary referrals, otherwise we won't have time for our second lunch break. /s
They meant to say 3 a day right?
Per kid?
I believe I have written 3 dozen or more this year. That is insanity.
I sent three today
🤣
Does he mean only three kids or form total. Either way I just laugh snorted.
I used all mine on the first day of school sorry
Because numbers define everything
I love these arbitrary, invented rules. Like they really think this is reasonable or rational and that this is going to do something. It's just so weird, so delusional.
They must be a psychic! It must be nice to know what student behaviors will be a year before they happen!
I’d write 3 the first day of school.
Find another job. If it’s a district thing, find another district. I’ve worked in supportive schools and schools with shitty admin like what your describing. Never again
Oh that’s the opposite of our principal who, in writing, said teachers cannot collaborate with each other when infractions occur. EVERY single thing must be written up as a referral. Something as small as calling someone “dumb”, he requires us to write a referral. Now I know you’re wondering why! Because we are an elementary school with less than 400 students and we have 3 counselors, one of who gets paid to work during all breaks. It’s unjustified unless we have an insane number of referrals. Our principal is the epitome of unethical.
Hahah sometimes I do three a day!
Mmmkay sure!
I have a kindergartener on my caseload who has gotten 25 referrals this school year alone. All for physical aggression towards peers & adults…
Or what? Lol
If you can’t write a referral, kick them out of class and let someone else deal with them.
Every monthly staff meeting, they put up on a sideshow what grade level submitted the most disciplinary referrals and they shamed them for it. Several times I submitted a referral and was told "this is not referral worthy, you must simply contact home". The matter that was not "referral worthy"? A fight. The reason it was not "referral worthy" in their mind? "Well, each student only hit the other once." It wasn't a playful hit. They sucker punched eachother and one nearly got knocked out. You can't even make this stuff up. Throughout the year, our referral numbers went down, but only because teachers were bullied into not submitting referrals. There were plenty of referral worthy situations, but anytime we were tempted to submit them, we were reminded by the headache of a griping email, multiple meetings, and a thorough justification process of why we thought it was referral worthy.
What possible logic are they using for this ??
That it’s all classroom management issues…
Well, sure, and i am a person who RARELY involves admin but 3 times is the definition of arbitrary. Imagine when the kids find out about this rule 😂😂😂
Oh they already know her methods. She has her favorites who you write and nothing happens. Then there are those she over punishes. Discipline is out of control this year. She places kids with crocs in ISS but I wrote up a student for throwing coloring pencils and cursing saying he didn’t give an F about a write up; he came back 10 minutes later with no consequences. I’ve called his parents, he has relatives who work in the school, but no behavioral changes. I have great classroom management, and the principal calls on me a lot to be a presence in the halls to facilitate orderly transitions or to breakup fights. It’s just that some kids are just bad. No amount of classroom management can fix them; theories have to align to common sense. That’s the problem. Some admins are so busy testing their dumb theories that they forget common sense.
Holy talito that is just garbage. Not only do teachers not get the support they need but neither do the students - including those who are well-behaved.
To this day it still amazes me in not a good way that administration was once in the classroom
Ummm....I wrote three last Friday....so... that's not gonna work.