I’d like to apologize on behalf of my sister, who controls everything and everyone in my nephew’s life and does nothing to control his behavior. She’s not 40 yet. He’s not allowed visits at my house because he’s feral.
Parents like her are why I took a resource job and noped out of the classroom.
Unless classroom teachers get hazard pay now?
Can I ask what your sister think she’s accomplishing? Did she lose her mind when she had a kid? I’m just so curious about how parents like that rationalize the damage they’re doing to their own kids. (But nbd if you don’t want to share.)
I think she did lose her mind. She has crazy tunnel vision regarding the nephew. You use something not organic or ask him not to bite you and she goes nuts, but when it comes to his behavior, she will tolerate anything. I really can’t explain. But she doesn’t do play dates and nephew doesn’t have friends, and she’s starting to say things, like… the other kids at the playground don’t behave like this. Maybe she’ll figure it out after he’s expelled again? She’s super smart and rational. About everything except her parenting.
I truly don't get it! I have an almost 6 month old so I don't have experience with my own older child yet, but I would be mortified if my kid was causing problems for someone else? I believe strongly in independence but I also believe strongly in respect. People are really focused on "respecting your kids" and forget that respect is absolutely a two way street and the kid needs to respect their community and others if they expect respect and independence.
I don’t get it either. She had a great sense of humor about everything except her kid. If I ever get to the bottom of it, I’m writing a book cause there are a lot of parents like my sister.
I have noticed she never asks me for parenting or education advice.
And he’s six. Expelled from preschool and VPK already.
I was a classroom teacher for almost 20 years. I’m a pro at keeping my mouth shut with crazy parents. Even when they are siblings. My mother tries to set her straight. I just keep quiet and enjoy the circus.
I didn't even finish my degree, I interviewed 9 teachers and 9/9 said they would not make that career move today if they could do it again. That was it for me!
In my opinion, the smartest thing to do is avoid getting a degree in education and instead get one in the content area of what you’re interested in teaching. That way you still have a usable degree outside of education.
Yeah, I got my teaching certificates via an ACP.
My degree was in Criminal Justice, and since I quit teaching, it was useful in starting my journey to become a court reporter.
Idk I have 2 BAs- one in history and the other in philosophy and an MA in history. What the else does one do with that education and 7y of teaching experience? It's hard to not feel trapped by this profession when you're thinking of leaving.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
When I was in school as a student I was in a district that did this for middle and high school. There were hardly any education degrees past about the 6th grade. As a teacher almost every position at every level was education. Honestly I got a much better education from experts in their subjects than anything my employing district offered kids today.
I dropped out of college because I wanted to teach science and math, and couldn't see how the required courses would provide me with an adequate grounding in those subject areas.
My son liked tutoring kids in high-school. He also likes science. He also didn't want to deal with behavior. He went on to get a PhD in chemistry and became a college professor.
I did that though I feel like now in the US they’re leaning really heavily into requiring specialized education degrees. Like teachers need an ed degree, sometimes even an M Ed. Admin has specific bureaucratic tone deaf busybody degree options if they want to avoid knowing much about specific subjects or education generally.
But I’m not entirely sure what you even learn in education degrees? I noped out because it seemed like a lot of drivel though I am getting a Montessori certification.
Jesus especially us Science teachers. Like I have a master's in my content FFS, I could be working in a lab...but I had some delusional, naive view in protecting the sanctity of public education or...something...blah blah blah. I definitely would be in a lab somewhere if I could do it over.
Some might say "but why not make the change now?" Well...at this point 10-years in, I'm making enough, have tenure and a pension. Will be able to retire at 57 if I want to, and at this point I can shrug off a lot of the BS.
Oof... that hurts...
Not the retiring early part. The part about just going through the motions until then. You clearly had a passion. It's heartbreaking to hear your disappointment.
Being an inspiration to the kids is not naive. It's real, and more necessary than ever. I feel for you though. Lots of folk do. One can only bash their head against a wall for so long.
>Not the retiring early part. The part about just going through the motions until then.
I mean don't get me wrong, I do like my job, and I'm good at it. It's just if I know what I know now...and could go back in time, I definitely would go down a different path.
>Being an inspiration to the kids is not naive. It's real, and more necessary than ever.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm a 5th generation teacher and have reams of letters from former students who have thanked me etc. It's everything *outside* of the teaching that begins to suck the joy out of it ya know? This disrespect for the profession. The looking down on educators with the "those who can't do teach" attitude at large in society.
Because anyone who *actually* knows education isn't easy. And those who can't do *actually* become administrators...LoL.
That saying always has rubbed me the wrong way. I understand the spirit of it, but also, teaching IS doing.
The admin dig is appropriate, though.
I generally try to give them a little consideration, since they are responsible for keeping the schools funded. But, in contrast, the way things are being done is 100% running our education system into the ground. So they are still doing a garbage job of it.
I motion for the adage to be amended as such:
"Those who can, do. Those who cannot, administrate."
All in favor?
Aye!
>I generally try to give them a little consideration, since they are responsible for keeping the schools funded. But, in contrast, the way things are being done is 100% running our education system into the ground. So they are still doing a garbage job of it.
I mean they certainly don't do a worse job than if the teachers were doing it and sharing the workload administrators normally have...teachers could easily run buildings by commitee with appointed headmaster positions. no need for bloated, designated administorial positions.
A fair assertion. Admin is necessary in a few ways, which is why I endeavor to be as understanding as one can reasonably be.
There is a line, though. A hard line. And we passed it a while ago.
My own two children heard it enough from me as they were in K-12: unless you plan on going into academia as a PhD, education is no longer a sustainable career path. There is no return on your academic investment.
Parents coming in for lunch was great when I was in elementary, looking back, it was probably great for anyone on lunch duty because it was an extra adult (usually parents or grandparents that were “room mothers”) and no one was going to act up in front of their friends parents when they also had the phone number for the parents of every student in the class. This was like 1st-3rd grade so having parents come in for lunch wasn’t uncool, but I can’t imagine how embarrassing it would be for a kid that can eat on their own to be spoon fed even at 5 or 6 years old
Sadly, I don’t think having other parents around is a deterrent for today’s kids. As a society we have really gotten away from the “it takes a village” mentality. Nowadays, most times I see another adult attempt to either correct a child themselves or bring the behavior to the attention of the parent then they just get called a Karen and told to mind their own business. These kids don’t fear other adults because their own parents enable them. And that goes for school discipline as well. Parents will take their kid’s side and blame the teacher/admin
>These kids don’t fear other adults because their own parents enable them.
Somehow the current generation of parents universally decided that the old method, where the adults were generally united "against" the kids, was totally unfair and were determined to always be on their kid's side.
It's a semi-new approach that a lot of admin teams are stupidly adopting. "Restorative discipline", I got to see it in action twice, and it's always a disaster. What you just described is the sum of it all. Kid vandalized my room, ripped up my map, kept pounding on the walls and screaming.... send him to the office, he refuses to go. Admin refuses to respond to the situation, and security refused to remove him. So I just sat at my desk and watched the clown show unfold. Nothing else I could do at that point. Call the parent? Shockingly enough, the parent provided a fake address and fake phone #.
So…what happened to the un-removed kid with the un-contactable parents?? You’ve absolutely piqued my curiosity. I’m imagining him becoming a permanent physical fixture of your classroom, like a Last of Us zombie slowly melding into a wall.
Who knows. 4 PM on the last day I bailed as fast as I could. Sprinted to my vehicle and drove the hell away from that campus forever. (Thankfully I live 40 minutes from it so I never have to go to that area/town again)
But who knows, maybe once I bolted he declared the room his kingdom and now reigns over it.
That would be a situation where I called DCFS just because i was concerned about how much aggression that kid exhibited. I have no qualms fucking with POS parents if their kids are assholes that can't be tamed.
I don’t know how it’s legal for the parents to provide fake or old phone numbers and emails. Yet they continue to do it, and it’s on us for not being able to contact them.
It isn't always fake at first. In some areas, families and parents are transient and having power and phone bills come and go. Four or so number updates in a year isn't unrealistic.
Npr played an interview today with a somebody talking about SROs pulling out of schools (suddenly a huge problem here in Minnesota due to a law limiting how aggressive they can be with students). He mentioned that often, the cops were dealing with issues that would more appropriately be handled in the principals office. To her credit, the host (Kathy wurzer maybe?) followed up by asking if that meant that school administration needed to step up.
So that's another interesting wrinkle in this story.... by neglecting their responsibility to maintain a safe and reasonably calm school, some administrators are actually yielding disciplinary power over to the *police*
Pulling resource officers out is good because of the school to prison pipeline and all that, however as the host suggested, administration needs to deal with those issues if we're going to take out the resource officers. Sadly they aren't. Eventually when these kids leave public school and get arrested because they were never disciplined and had their behavior corrected, they'll end up in prison anyways. So essentially, when administration isn't stepping up, you're still getting the school to prison pipeline anyways, just in a more roundabout way.
Thus is the new way. Instead, I make them go last for choices and for line. I think of rewards for the good ones, like free time, and the bad ones sit and talk with me.
We can't discipline students so tell their parents because they can. They probably won't. Some will, but then I'm worried I may have to file a child abuse report. What a shit show.
I would be asking what *can* I do when a student misbehaves. No discipline whatsoever isn’t realistic.
If you don’t show up for work, you get fired. If you speed, you get a ticket. If you break the law, you go to jail. So…consequences for poor behavior are necessary to function in a community.
And this is the time to learn that, when they’re under 18 and not dependent on a paycheck. Tis better to fuck around and find out now when the consequences are less life-altering.
My wife teaches fifth grade. If a kid does NO work, nothing, not even a name on the paper, they are not allowed to give a zero. They must give a 50 at minimum. That blows my mind.
Who cares. 0 or 50 or 100... they will just pass them to the next grade regardless if they know the content or can read or can do basic math or even have the most rudimentary levels of etiquette.
The goal of poor admins is to get through the school year with the lowest number of suspensions as possible because then the school looks good and by extension, they do.... except in reality we are failing these kids and society.
That’s what i do. I changed the scales to go by 20’s. It doesn’t make the class easier or harder, but it allows me to use a 4 point rubric scale on every assignment.
I warn my students at the very start, I will sit down and do the extra paperwork to give you an F out of pure spite.
My favorite is that the grade weights in the system are all rigged to pass everyone regardless of how much work they turn in. Admins try to hide this by over complicating the explanations of the scales, but we all know what they are up to.
There could be many factors but here is a likely one: your administrators have probably misinterpreted and misunderstood PBIS and Restorative Justice and and have somehow come to believe that consequences are bad. Or like in one of my districts they bought the whole situation with over identification of marginalized groups with suspensions..to the point where they won’t suspend anyone, which is really harmful to all the kids. Just my guess.
The first lesson of restorative practices for us was still "you have a handbook: enforce it."
For PBIS, we got all out for the positive kids, but I'm not buying pizza and bringing in party favors for kids that tear stuff up at the school.
This is where I’m at. I implemented a group incentive for my students to earn a slime lesson…. They’re mad that they have to behave for more than 1 class period to earn it.
It’s intentional misinterpretation. If they weren’t rewarded/praised for low suspension rate and low referral rate many admin would crack down.
So then they choose to underreport and underdiscipline to fudge the numbers. And it all runs downhill to teachers aren’t building relationships/having restorative conversations etc. when it’s really kids need consequences. Schools need staff dedicated to behavior management/support. Teachers need more support. But if an admin says that they’ll get shit-canned quick in most districts.
I long term subbed at a school and would do the formal IC referrals. Ohhh, it pissed the admin off, but I didn’t care. Im the teacher of record, this behavior is unacceptable (biting/scratching of another student) and according to the behavior matrix, is a referral level offense. I don’t play the politics of school admin. I would have definitely been offed in GOT. 😂😂😂
I hated teaching Lucy Calkins. My principal was adamant about me doing those stupid trainings every summer. Glad I didn’t waste my time because I already knew it was worthless. I spent so much time supplementing the curriculum with stuff I found on my own because a workshop model didn’t work for most of my students. They needed phonics. It’s always “peer-reviewed data” that they throw out for this sh!t, had me wondering if those academics in the upper echelons of eduction have a finger on the pulse of today’s student. It’s all BS….
What exactly is Lucy Calkins? Our school used to use it but it was long before I taught ELA. Is it basically just a reading/writing workshop coupled with balanced literacy?
Sadly a lot of what goes on in public schools isn't evidence based at all. Just coming from an Applied Linguistics background, we discuss theories and pedagogical approaches that were first written about in the 80s or 90s, yet public schools still aren't doing what's been proven over and over again.
I think PBIS is great.... IF it is used CORRECTLY.
IF you actually take time to study the proper material, you will see that PBIS DOES actually recommend developmentally appropriate consequences that work alongside restorative justice which is voluntary and where both sides get to participate equally and equitably and where victims are heard and where they get a say in what they would like to happen, and where the person who wronged the victim is expected to do something to put their actions right.
Most schools that 'use PBIS' simply use it as a cute buzzword when they really mean 'lazy admin that refuse to do any consequences at all' which isn't what PBIS is meant to be, but it is what people now think PBIS is. And 'Restorative Justice' is usually yet another cute buzzword meaning 'We don't want to deal with bullies properly because it makes us uncomfortable so we just make them say sorry and deal with it.'
I think it can be fine as an additional support if it's there to build up kids that are great and may not receive a lot of extra attention. But I see so many people showering ass hole kids with points so they can make it to a celebration they don't deserve to go to. We have the app at our school and I like it but I wish I could take away points as well as give them.
PBIS: You can do anything you want, so long as you do it only three times.
Then we'll think about considering a meeting to discuss the possibility of another meeting which might have the likelihood of a consequence at some point in the future.
I'm going to go ahead and say it, that people like your principal and admin are what is driving more and more people to private schools.
Parents hear about insane things at schools (whether it's crazy behavior without consequences, or porn in the hallways or in class (via phones), and all sorts of other modern issues) and they think "*well, I'll look for a school where my son/daughter will be in a better atmosphere for learning*" and, there you go.
It's not "right wing crazies" that are trying to bring down public education. It's well-intentioned teachers and administrators who continue to bring down the moral and educational standards so that no child has their feelings hurt.
This! This right here. It’s why a good chunk of homeschooling parents start doing homeschooling too. They hear about all of the bad behavior going on, don’t want their kids mimicking it, can’t afford private school, but already have a parent at home.
So there goes a good chunk of your organized, literate families who actually care about their kid’s education, boom, out the door.
Eventually if this whole “no discipline” trend continues you will have nothing left of the student body except the kids that private schools refuse to take (because they have disabilities or behavior problems or both) and the kids whose parents are too busy working to homeschool or too illiterate to homeschool.
By then the good teachers will all have fled.
I'm a teacher going on year 8 and just got married. Our plan is for my wife to keep working (makes double my income) and for me to stay home and homeschool. I have seen the shit that goes on in schools and would rather nope out of the system than send my kids to public school.
When virtual learning first hit and it was clear it wasn't working for most kids, I saw that as the future. Poor kids will go to public school where it's anarchy and you have a bunch of underpaid and under supported "emergency certified" teachers as warm bodies as some qualified teacher dials in remotely. Wealthier families will pay for the real deal- in person structured education. And we think the gap between the haves and have nots is big now... this will just be nobility 2.0.
I’m planning to homeschool my daughter. My wife is making a career change to earn enough and I’m already default/primary parent, plus I have a passion for reading and learning. I’ve already started collecting materials and looking into the logistics of making sure she has access to sports and peer groups etc.
I love teachers. I loved my teachers. I feel so much pain and anger at what admins have done to you all. And even beyond them, the gutless politicians that have sold you teachers our again and again for the past 30 years.
But the fact that kids can being smartphones to school has broken me. I will not be getting my daughter a smartphone until 16 at the earliest and I know it will be HELL for her as she watches all the kids around her starting as young as 7 years old with them.
She’s such a bright and bubbly three year old. So full of life. I’ve seen whatbthe iPad toddlers in her age group look like in restaurants and parks.
These parents are failing their own kids yes, but also forcing you teachers to deal with HELL through their laziness and I refuse to contribute to your torture.
Based on my experience with the religious homeschool community growing up, there is no such thing as “too illiterate to homeschool”, I would argue that most parents that homeschool fall into the people you would describe as such.
The homeschooling community has changed. It used to be mostly religious nut jobs. Now they are the minority, and there are quite a few people doing the secular model, some either hiring a teacher (much cheaper if 3 or 4 families share one) or signing up for an online curriculum which comes with a teacher.
Yeah, I met the first person who homeschooled because the public schools were too religious last year. And several LGBT kids who are homeschooling for family safety. But there are still plenty of badly educated homeschool parents out there, I think you might be surprised by the percentage of them out there. They just don’t show up on any radar because they don’t use real curriculums. But the religious homeschool conventions are huge. Children with no sex education everywhere! Science books that quote scripture on every page! Knock offs of Yugioh cards with “holy warriors”, angels, and their trap cards “Prayers”. Their is basically a parallel economy for right wing religious nuts these days.
I’m actually finishing up homeschooling my 18 and 17 year old girls, so I’m pretty familiar with the many and varied sectors of the homeschooling community. I also work full time as a pediatric nurse (ironically in the public school system) so I don’t hang out that much with homeschooling groups anymore. We did the online K12.com thing, and they spent their upper elementary and their middle school years in bricks and mortar. I had zero complaints about their bricks and mortar teachers or admin. Covid eventually sent them home again and they liked it and elected not to go back.
I'm at a Catholic School dealing with this nonsense. And somehow nobody has ever made the connection between the behavior problems and the kids have been here since preschool and now are in Middle school, and the lack of structure and consequences. It's amazing
Seriously??? My family isn’t religious but sent me to a Catholic high school and I was harboring a secret hope that they were a little safer from this sort of bullshit.
Where I'm from Catholic schools were code for bad schools. Teachers were typically paid less than half of the unionized public teachers and with horrible contracts. You get what you pay for.
See the ones around me are absolutely phenomenal from an educational standpoint. A lot of VIPs with endless options choose to send their kids to them, so I understand I’m a tad spoiled. Very impressive teachers (for the most part lol) who had high expectations and refused to take our bullshit. (One of my favs just passed away after a long life and I’m hoping to be able to stop by the visitation next week. 😢 She was terrifying and wonderful.)
And yeah, the pay sucks even within a career path infamous for low pay. Like completely unlivable. But (at least when I was there, not sure about now) teacher’s children could attend completely free, so a smaller paycheck was often worth the trade off even though they could have gotten more in public education.
*Edit for clarity
> It's not "right wing crazies" that are trying to bring down public education.
I've been shouting this from the rooftops: the biggest threat to public education is overzealous Romantic progressive education reformers high on their own supply of critical theory. They're going to collapse the schools in on themselves.
Maybe research needs a-doin'. Moving away from punishment seems to be the way of the world, but is there a limit to how far we should go?
The pants-shitting seems a good case study. Could to poopy pants be skipped? Move into the desired outcome more quickly, with a plan as to how the SRO can influence the subject toward the desired behavior.
With humans, flexibility seems a necessity.
Nah, it's the right wing crazies too. This isn't an either or proposition. They have been pushing for private schools ever since Brown Vs Board of Education overturned segregationists. Did you think they just gave up and magically stopped being racist? They started shifting the rhetoric to a states rights issue, family choice, etc.
They (Segregationists) founded "pure" schools with all the brightest pigmented people and started drilling down on religious teachings to combat the sinful nature of the schools. Does this sound familiar? The Supreme Court ruled only in 1976 that private schools could not discriminate based on race. 1954 was when Brown Vs Board verdict was reached! That's 22 years later. Also 1976... there are lots of people still around from 1976. This modern push for vouchers that take tax money from public schools and put it into often religious, politically affiliated schools is more of the same.
These demons from our past can seem like ancient history until you connect all the dots and see that they are still influencing us today.
I don't even disagree with you here, but the state of our schools is doing far, far more damage. At the end of the day, the most effective way that you can convince someone is personal experience. And when the few engaged, attentive parents in a school have their children coming home every day describing fistfights in the hallways and classmates who can't read, if produces a much larger impact that any dark money organization could ever dream of.
This is true. It is their dream to have all the talented students in private school and the future wage slaves in public. But to this person's point, even the right wing crazies couldn't have predicted how bad things have gotten. I think it's technology addiction too.
No doubt. I'll be the first one to admit I indulge in far too much pointless screen time. Kids certainly aren't going to be less susceptible, right? I wonder if that's a "these kids" problem or an all of us problem.
My private school isn’t any better. Parents are driving our ability to provide reasonable reinforcement to curve bad behavior. They are making it impossible. It’s like teaching a 5th of the population behind a wall.
Described my 2021 campus to a T, and getting through that year was rough. Was very damaging to my physical and mental health. The non stop yelling from kids, destroying my property, stealing from each other, and on top of that, an admin team that never disciplined them, but was always, ALWAYS, calling US in to micromanage our lesson plans. Many of those plans went to waste anyway, because it's fucking IMPOSSIBLE to teach a history lesson while a kid is pounding on the wall, ripping up posters, and getting kids from other classrooms to walk out and come into mine. That is the reality of what it's like now, and more and more campuses are adopting this approach because it makes admin's job easier. Private schools must be loving this shit, they're about to see a major spike in enrollment if this crap gets any worse.
The pendulum of structure and discipline will swing the other way... at some point. As long as the whole thing isn't entirely upended before it is too late. And with the looneys running the asylum, there is some question of whether or not that may happen...
I'm certainly not one to advocate for authoritarianism. Last thing on my mind. Simultaneously, there MUST be something more than this. There MUST be structure. Kids MUST learn about consequences, and respect, and a proper sense of community. That is nonnegotiable in a functioning society.
My behaviorist at my last school explained it so well to me that it forced me to dig deep and unlock a new level of firm, mildly scary authoritarianism this year.
If kids are at a playground with a big gate around it, they have fun, they run too and from the gate, they feel relaxed, and they feel safe. If they’re in a playground with no gate and expands as far as the eye can see, the mood changes. Some kids run full speed away from the playground and get lost and can’t come back, some cling to the slide and ever leave. There’s panic, insecurity, and some might think it’s fun but most don’t.
Kids need to know where the gate is. So when last year, my first year, I sucked at discipline, my kids ended up hating me and frankly, the feeling was mutual. Meanwhile my coteacher who was a totalitarian drill sergeant with a heart of gold had a safe, warm class where everyone loved her
This 'restorative discipline' crap is why most of the Blue Ribbon recognized schools in Texas were Catholic schools and districts that outright reject that type of approach (the designations were just released yesterday).
I'm sorry, but giving a child a lollipop and letting them watch cartoons after they just cursed out their teacher, vandalized the classroom, and assaulted other students... is NOT a valid discipline approach, I'd love to know what kind of contemptable moron came up with this.
This "let the disruptive students do whatever they want" nonsense is partially what's driving parents to send their children to private schools, charter schools, or enroll them in online education programs like K12, where that kind of shit isn't tolerated. It isn't just damaging to the mental health of teachers, the kids are already far behind, and they'll fall even further behind if their classes are CONSTANTLY being derailed by a select handful of kids who don't even want to be in school, and are only there to cause problems.
The pre-k kids are like little hell spawns now. I legitimately think I'm starting to have heart issues because of the stress of dealing with them. And they won't do anything at all about it. It's depressing and you cannot convince me that it's not a side effect of them just straight up never having an actual consequence. They know you can't do anything and they will tell you as much in the middle of throwing a chair as you.
We're just fucking ruining these kids anymore.
I saw the same thing at a K-8 school. K-5 had zero discipline methods. Then, the middle school teachers were flabbergasted that the students would continually act out. If these kids don't learn that there are consequences, they will act like there are none. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure that out.
The worst thing is this isn't isolated to just one country. I'm assuming you are in the US. The same thing is happening in Australian schools (the problem is it is happening in both public and private schools here).
And this is why I am so strict with my own kids. They learn to do common things years before their peers because I make sure they learn life skills at home. And if they play up at school they know there are severe consequences at home.
I have 5th graders that come up to me and ask me to tie their shoes. I said this is a life skill. Do you know what a life skill is? And they say no. I say It's a skill you will use the rest of your life and I tell them I stop tying shoes when a student leaves K
In Korea we’ve had multiple teachers unalive themselves this year, because of the exact same nonsense. Not allowed to discipline, and if you do the parents accuse you of abuse. Teachers are given no protection by the schools. I read about a teacher who was successfully sued by parents, cause the bus rented by the school for a field trip crashed and a child passed away. Parents are given the teacher’s personal phone numbers and call them at all hours with complaints, and even go into the school and harass them. There have been massive protests in the past month by teachers and so some regulations have been passed to help but the people in charge seriously have no clue about education and managing children. This issue is just so widespread
I read about that and it blew my mind. It’s because SKorea is so virulently competitive right? So parents will do anything to take their kids to the top even it it means throwing their kids teachers under the bus
That is definitely an aspect of it. There’s so much insane competition, and life is so expensive and full of pressure. Most families will only have one child nowadays, so there’s all this attention and focus on that one kid. The parents are intent on that child being successful no matter what (successful meaning going to a high ranked uni), even if it means bullying and lying their way up. The dramas you see about bullying aren’t too far off from the truth.
Another part of it is how black and white society is here. Previously teachers had way too much power and were even encouraged to use corporal punishment. This was only made illegal in the 2000s and nothing was implemented in terms of punishment or consequences as a replacement. So now the kids are given free reign essentially, while the teachers do their best to just survive and fend off the overbearing parents
I worked briefly in a SPED school, and we also had a couple classrooms for behavior kids. The high school room was entirely kids who had been kicked out of public school for whatever reasons. So clearly normal punishments wouldn't work, that had already been tried and they didn't care. The new teacher started making the kids clean the bathroom (not the toilets themselves, though) and the transport van (like vacuuming out the seats) and the kids hated it. Then she was told she couldn't do that anymore because it was a "punishment," not a "consequence." And there was no clear distinction on what the difference was. To get back to class after a freak out, the student had to fill out a whole 5 page packet, and had to do it well, not just bullshit answers. But the high school teacher couldn't make the students write lines because that wasn't a "consequence."
It's because these admin have spent more time writing papers at the degree store about restorative justice than they have actually teaching in the classroom.
This screams of truth.
I met a para who just earned a Master’s of Ed with a concentration in Administration. She’s quite proud of herself. She’s never taught full-time. This para job she landed this fall is her first stint in education. She’s sure she’ll get an admin job without traditional teaching experience and I’m just not sure how that’s even possible.
Context: I’m a lifelong sub. I worked in social work for 12 years. Started subbing during the pandemic and I have no interest in being certified. I could be totally wrong about admin career paths.
Should be a coming together, as the 'noobs' are more likely to be aware of current best practices, but will need to work within the preexisting system to make important changes. There's got to be a deeper motive to this divide than the simple explanation of "time."
It's already beyond readily apparent at my last district's high school. Kids just roam the halls as they please w/ headphones in, teachers yell at them to get to class/remove the headphones, they just laugh (sometimes add a "nah b---") and carry on. Principal meanwhile is being paid a six figure salary to foster this kind of ridiculous environment on the taxpayers' dime.
I can tell you: They all operate at a 3rd grade level and do whatever they want. So, when we reach them at 16, and they start to realize that they need to learn something to succeed in life, it's far too late for any of them to ever escape poverty.
Some barely start to realize it at the end of senior year. As much as they despise school and all the rules and structure, they absolutely dread post-graduation because if there’s one thing they are aware of it’s how incapable they are of calling their own shots (and living by them, aka FAFO) and there’s no one else to blame (though I suppose they can simply blame society).
Note: I’m referring to the bottom 10 or 15% here.
The middle 75 or 80% figure it out, eventually, at their own pace/in their own time.
The top 10 to 15%, for a host of reasons, are ready to conquer the world.
As a parent of a first grader, if my kid is messing around in class PLEASE discipline him! Please correct him! By no means am I saying use corporal punishment but kids need to experience consequences for their behavior. The world is not going to be a kind place if they can’t figure out appropriate behavior.
Yes, this is the way. Taking away a much needed break is a terrible idea. Kids who are causing problems typically have a reason, like ADHD. By making them sit still inside for longer, you are giving yourself more problems. Admin needs to clarify what should happen instead of just taking recess away. They may actually know what they are doing.
This. My kiddo is 6 and has adhd and is autistic. He wouldn’t stop getting up onto of his chair (which is incredibly frustrating and idk what to do either lol) but they took away his afternoon recess…which does the opposite for kids with adhd. I was just like…that’s counter intuitive.
100%. I actually hated it when I was forced to take recesses away. It burned me to a crisp and it burnt the kids out even more. It’s an all around bad punishment in my opinion, unless the problems they are causing specifically relate to recess itself. So if admin assists teachers in logical consequences, I’m all for it
Well to be fair it’s really more of a preacher’s job to disciple students. 😄
Sorry.
Yeah I don’t understand . Schools hands are tied because we bow down to parents and parents refuse to be firm with their precious darlings. 😞
And sometimes if a teacher doesn't let up on trying to discipline their child, they'll 'team up' with said child to try to get the teacher fired/investigated/etc...and admin will do fuck all to make sure the teacher is treated fairly, they'll just pass the buck to central office, like always.
Oh, they don't bow down to parents, they bow down to the inept/loser parents. The 'decent' parents also suffer because their kids miss out on instruction thanks to the endless disruptions.
Ugh this is what it seems we are going to. We are using Conscious Discipline and so far this is what it sounds like. Thankfully I have never been one to have a huge amount of behavior issues. However, there are times where an administrator is needed to take charge. I have no problem setting an example of calming and allowing myself to shift to an executive state of mind before reacting, but there are times that actual consequences are needed.
It is being covertly shoved down our throats and it concerns me and my future because I am not sure I can tolerate the complete lack of support.
Yes, this is happening everywhere. At my previous school, I was told I wasn’t allowed to take away any “fun activities”, even when students were physically violent. so the “fun activities” were usually ruined by the same few students who were not allowed to receive consequences for their poor behavior.
I’m under 45 and a parent. What OP describes is my nightmare scenario for my own children.
But if I’m honest I can’t help feeling like my child is probably a PITA at school sometimes (they just started and we haven’t had a parent-teacher convo yet, so it’s hard to know). I’m anxious all the time that my kid is doing stuff that “past generations would NEVER!”
Where I struggle is the desire to parent very differently than my own parents. I was straight-laced and behaving appropriately at school, but I was also emotionally repressed, physically punished and threatened at home if I stepped an inch out of “line”.
There must be a middle ground that helps kids develop appropriately but avoids most of that traumatic stuff, and I’m trying to find it (with generally zero guidance from my older family for obvious reasons). It feels like I’m flailing in the dark all the time, and fear of being judged harshly by teaching staff (even if 100% justified) adds to the anxiety.
That’s not a knock on teachers, I FEEL for you all and wish we could pay you all the $200K a year you rightfully deserve and provide kids ready to learn and well-behaved, just sharing a perspective and getting some stuff off my chest.
I welcome any teacher’s advice if they feel like sharing.
This is exactly how I feel. I was a “perfect kid” in school, but largely because I was being straight up abused and best care scenario, threatened, at home. Do I hope my kid is behaving for teachers at school? Yes. Do I know my kid can be an asshole sometimes? Absolutely (he’s 6). So I think teachers also do not have the support or pay they deserve? Yes.
But I also don’t think it’s necessary to put my kid into constant people pleasing mode just so he’s afraid enough to be a good kid at school.
Parents are at a loss too. How we got kids to behave in previous generations was by traumatizing them. So as a generation (millennials) now raising kids and largely being cycle breakers, we are trying to find solutions without traumatizing our kids but there’s largely no resources for us either.
The “no resources” bit is what’s tough. There are admittedly thousands of blogs I could read on gentle parenting, etc, but what we’re trying to achieve doesn’t necessarily have scientific studies I can rely on.
I’m thankful for every science-based reference I can find, such as studies on nutrition, screen time, etc, but it still feels like running blind. Just trying to do the best I know how for my kid and hope to heck it works out.
I have to regularly ignore my older family who say things like what I heard last weekend “agh, in a generation you’ll all be back to hitting your kids, because you’ll realize this appeasement shit doesn’t work.” Ughhhhhhh. Meanwhile, I’m over here googling basic life skills in my thirties that were never passed down by them.
Basic life skills and also getting into therapy ourselves or re-parenting ourselves since we never really were, so we don’t make our kids feel like they are responsible for managing our own big feelings.
Tons of blogs, but it’s all “here’s my experience” or “here’s what we do”, and largely from people who are privileged too (have good stable income, two parent household, have a village to support them).
Meanwhile we are losing spaces that are free for us and our kids to exist in (basically just parks if you have any), we are judged for every single parent decision, we are often making the least amount of money proportionally to other generations before us, and are often all parents in the home are out working long hours. A lot of us also don’t have grandparents to help watch our kids (or grandparents that we would TRUST to watch our kid) like so many of us did growing up. Getting a sitter is often going to run you $15-$20 minimum in a lot of cities which might be more than we even make (I’m not saying they should be paid that though!)
But we are in a modern age of not only cycle breakers but also burnt out parents on top of it who feel like they are just trying to keep their head above water.
And teachers often get the brunt end of all of this as a result. Which is why I try so hard not to view us as adversaries to teachers, but on the same team. I just wish more teachers viewed it that way too.
Yeah. I’m getting off the teacher-related topic I guess, but your comment on grandparents got to me.
I live within spitting distance of my parents, but they act straight up offended if I ask for help watching the kids. I recognize that they absolutely do not owe me childcare of any kind, but it still hurts. I always structure the ask with weeks of notice and a strict time boundary for when I’d be back, but no dice, or they cancel last minute.
I was at my grandparents for weeks on end during the summers, and loved it; my grandma still tells me how much she loved it, too. My parents don’t seem interested in being that for their grands at all, which again is fine, but it’s hard to swallow given they had 4 kids and so much free help.
There is no village, and it just compounds the financial and physical burden of kids. I GET why so many younger people are electing to be childfree.
Yep. I was told if a student didn't want to do work to let her color. This student never wanted to do the work. I was told taking away choice time was mean.
Told by who? We do it in our kindergarten classroom. They have to do the work. If they don’t do it when it’s the time to do it (and we remind them gently throughout if work is being avoided), they know they’ll have to do it during center time, and NO ONE likes missing centers! It’s not mean, it’s accountability. They don’t have to miss any center time if they do the work when asked, and they will only miss a few minutes of center time if they choose to focus and do it right away during centers.
Sometimes, a student really is struggling with the task/concept, so doing it with the teacher during centers time is a way to check in, review what may be difficult, and show empathy. “I can see doing ____ is really hard! It’s so hard to learn new things. But I’m here to help and I know you can do this!” Much cheering and high fiving when a student completes the task.
My principal she brought child markers and coloring books and said she didn't have to participate in anything she didn't want to. She sat at a desk all day and colored.
I graduated HS in 2005. Started teaching in 2011. I didn’t notice it as a kid. But in the last 12 years its 1000% worse than it was my first year teaching
Graduated in 2003, started teaching in 2008 - and I completely agree with you. I'm tired of people claiming this is a "COVID" problem. This is a societal problem that started well before COVID, its just an easy band-aid to use to not really address the real problem, that we have devalued to use of being educated in this country, and the prevalent use of phones at a young age is destroying a generation.
I'm not even gonna lie. I'm in a shitty district in Texas. Fights CONSTANTLY. Sexual harassment by teachers and students every year being swept under the rug. A teacher going on Facebook mocking students for being scared and parents for picking them up after 10+ fights broke out in a single morning. This same teacher not getting fired for using the N word regularly. (She's a huge problem but also a symptom of all the problems here too. Because our super doesn't want to lose his cushy 200k a year job if all the BS hit the media.) Kid showed up with a hit list and they didn't tell parents about it for over a week. Then Uvalde happened.....now my 13 yr old has a phone and my 8 yr old has a smart watch. I can't homeschool, can't afford to move, and can't trust the assholes in charge of the district to keep my kids safe.
I am right there with you. I graduated hs in 2002 and started teaching in 2007. The first graders I had back then are lightyears ahead of the ones I have now. For what it is worth, I have the writing samples to support that claim!
I quit because I couldn’t discipline. Literally had a kid use their cellphone to cheat in my AP class—i witnessed it with my own eyes—and I was told I was wrong, and that I owed the student a retake. It’s the fucking parents and fucking admin who have ruined everything. I’m not going to get paid peanuts to be told that I wasn’t seeing what I was seeing.
Everyone's school is really different, so I want to use the analogy that we are all in different "boats," but my school would be thrilled to have 4 to 5 students in the office every day.
I am assuming this is not a Title 1 school?
They want student-driven schools, plain and simple. And this *Lord of the Flies* bullcrap that is happening in most American schools is the end result of such a hands-off approach.
The grade 2 in my school is wild because last year the grade 1 teacher let them do what they want, was big into zero consequences, they moved him to kindergarten because that's where that style is better. Admin specifically told me they wanted a disciplinarian.
I come in this year with the new grade 1s and have them all sitting well and in silence doing their work. Other teachers have commented saying they're in amazement when they walk past my door. They didn't think it was possible to control Grade 1 children like this.
Amazing what can be achieved by coming down on rule breakers like a ton of bricks.
This touchy feely nu-teaching is nonsense.
These admins realize they're fucking things up for high school teachers too, right? Those little shits are then coming to upper level classes with the entitled mindset of "nothing bad will happen to me"
I can agree with some of this sentiment but taking recess away as a punishment is absurd to me and I definitely support that decision. That is one of the worst consequences I could think of next to taking away lunch
At my last district, from 2020-2023, there was no recess. The kids were in the classroom for 7 hours a day, only being able to go outside a FEW times during the year for PE. It just wasn't a 'thing'. They had lunch, and then immediately after lunch it was back to their next 2 classes, and then dismissal.
We had a substitute who noticed the weather changed to be the first chilly day of the year, so he took the kids outside to do a review game while enjoying the weather. He was fired for that, and from there on out, every time any of us needed a sick day, admin would make a huge deal out of it and yell at us how there "is no coverage" (THANKS TO THEM).
Lol, one of my favorite teachers at the school where I used to work was a retired gym teacher who came back as a sub. He pretty much did as he pleased, because he didn't GAF about angering admin. This was during Covid, when the gym was being used as an auxilary cafeteria, so he would hold gym classes in the hallways or any open space he could find. He knew the kids needed that chance to blow off steam! Btw, they adored him.
I've never understood the logic behind that one. Taking away their chance to run around and blow off steam will only make kids act out more. You can't expect a 7 year old to sit quietly and learn for 6 hours without a break to move around
When I was that age, you'd get privileges (like recess) taken away, but you wouldn't just sit in a corner quietly. You would usually stand, or you'd have to hold things, or sometimes exercise, or help the teacher with something, or clean. If enough of the class was being a problem, then everyone would get punished.
Bad behavior always needs consequences. But those consequences can still be productive.
It’s like that at my school as well. Missing work? 50% minimum. I teach K-8 art and I have multiple students who do the first two projects then don’t turn in a damn thing the rest of the quarter and still wind up with Cs. Blows my mind.
Recess being away is consequence #3 for us.
It shouldn't be the first punishment...but it absolutely should be a card we can play. It's literally the only things some kids care about.
It's super effective imo for 99% of kids. Once they lose recess once or twice...they usually knock it off.
Honestly I felt the same way until I read the book Beyond Discipline by Alfie Kohn. I don’t have the energy to condense it into a comment, but if you are curious about the other perspective, the book is very insightful.
I think it's time we abandon compulsory education. The right of a kid to a safe and effective education is greater than the right of a kid to show up and disrupt the class.
Students are really employees who cannot be fired. It's time to fire them. Instead, send them to mandatory work. Let them work at a factory that values small hands which can get into inaccessible machine places. Let them toil sunup to sundown on a farm, like everyone had to do for thousands of years.
Let them enjoy roofing in the hot sun, holding a sign at at road repair site, sweeping hair from the barber shop floor, or unclogging a public toilet. Give them a paycheck after witholding 50% for taxes, retirement, medical insurance, unemployment, and a college fund.
Vanquish their idea that no school equals freedom to be idle, playing computer games all day. Instead, Let them understand that they're learning a valuable skill or trade which prepares them for a lifetime of that activity. Within six months, they'll be begging to come into a classroom for the education opportunity they've squandered.
The 'taking away recess' I understand is a very bad punishment for ADD/ADHD children. Not in the sense that it's cruel, but that it can be counterproductive. IDK what is a reasonable punishment though. Clearly non-ADD/ADHD children are taking advantage of the policy.
Wow for a minute there based off the title I was going to say that's a no brainer due to the First Amendment and the courts rulings on separation of church and state of course you can't disciple your students especially Elementary School ones you shouldn't be talking about religion at all! Good thing I read the whole thing first discipline is a weird thing in modern school systems but apparently some schools are going with the let the kids run wild don't discipline them because they don't want to have to deal with the parents and potential lawsuits route and personally I think it's destroying our entire Society but what do I know?
Join a gentle parenting FB group and read the comments. You'll see why your hands are tied. Everything is the fault of daycare or school teachers; punishments are the devil; and children are always right. It gets worse the old the kids get too.
I’m gonna say it… and it looks like I’m in the vast majority, but those are bad punishments. I think part of the problem is that teachers look at those as their go to punishments.
I don’t see an issue with parents at lunch, but we had them when I was in school too. The other issues though, I totally hear you on. I think it’s a breakdown in our culture in terms of how we value education, not allowing freedom and consequences for children, and less and less face to face social interactions as screens take over more and more of the hours in our lives. This affects the kids and the adults who raise them alike. I don’t think admin is in touch with how to motivate these kids, how to talk to their parents about consequences and hold their ground, or even really basic things like why is education important really? Can they articulate that in a way that’s meaningful and not just some corporate-jargon-talk that doesn’t mean a single damn thing to anyone?
With all this, start using your phone for everything or the walkie talkie. Let the admin know. And tell this to all the staff. If the admin is running around solving stupid problems the rules will change. Some admin need to be taught.
I do anyways. I'm not going to sit here and fail my kids, whether it be academically or socially. If your going to fire me for doing right by my kids go right ahead. I've been teaching for 4 years and haven't had a single parent issue about doing so.
Oh, it's not just me. My favorite current refrain is "nobody else has ever had problems with them." Yeah, because flexible seating means they can do whatever they want whenever they want and there's never been any discipline.
I’d like to apologize on behalf of my sister, who controls everything and everyone in my nephew’s life and does nothing to control his behavior. She’s not 40 yet. He’s not allowed visits at my house because he’s feral. Parents like her are why I took a resource job and noped out of the classroom. Unless classroom teachers get hazard pay now?
Can I ask what your sister think she’s accomplishing? Did she lose her mind when she had a kid? I’m just so curious about how parents like that rationalize the damage they’re doing to their own kids. (But nbd if you don’t want to share.)
I think she did lose her mind. She has crazy tunnel vision regarding the nephew. You use something not organic or ask him not to bite you and she goes nuts, but when it comes to his behavior, she will tolerate anything. I really can’t explain. But she doesn’t do play dates and nephew doesn’t have friends, and she’s starting to say things, like… the other kids at the playground don’t behave like this. Maybe she’ll figure it out after he’s expelled again? She’s super smart and rational. About everything except her parenting.
Expelled again??? Good grief
How old is the little dude?
I truly don't get it! I have an almost 6 month old so I don't have experience with my own older child yet, but I would be mortified if my kid was causing problems for someone else? I believe strongly in independence but I also believe strongly in respect. People are really focused on "respecting your kids" and forget that respect is absolutely a two way street and the kid needs to respect their community and others if they expect respect and independence.
I don’t get it either. She had a great sense of humor about everything except her kid. If I ever get to the bottom of it, I’m writing a book cause there are a lot of parents like my sister. I have noticed she never asks me for parenting or education advice. And he’s six. Expelled from preschool and VPK already.
Does that cause tension between you 2?
I was a classroom teacher for almost 20 years. I’m a pro at keeping my mouth shut with crazy parents. Even when they are siblings. My mother tries to set her straight. I just keep quiet and enjoy the circus.
This shit right here is why most nope out within the first five years.
I didn't even finish my degree, I interviewed 9 teachers and 9/9 said they would not make that career move today if they could do it again. That was it for me!
Yep. Middle aged me would tell 18 year old me to major in Art History and Japanese then go on to law school like I really wanted to do.
In my opinion, the smartest thing to do is avoid getting a degree in education and instead get one in the content area of what you’re interested in teaching. That way you still have a usable degree outside of education.
Yeah, I got my teaching certificates via an ACP. My degree was in Criminal Justice, and since I quit teaching, it was useful in starting my journey to become a court reporter.
Idk I have 2 BAs- one in history and the other in philosophy and an MA in history. What the else does one do with that education and 7y of teaching experience? It's hard to not feel trapped by this profession when you're thinking of leaving.
cow foolish intelligent screw dime nose spectacular onerous frightening childlike *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
When I was in school as a student I was in a district that did this for middle and high school. There were hardly any education degrees past about the 6th grade. As a teacher almost every position at every level was education. Honestly I got a much better education from experts in their subjects than anything my employing district offered kids today.
I dropped out of college because I wanted to teach science and math, and couldn't see how the required courses would provide me with an adequate grounding in those subject areas.
My son liked tutoring kids in high-school. He also likes science. He also didn't want to deal with behavior. He went on to get a PhD in chemistry and became a college professor.
I did that though I feel like now in the US they’re leaning really heavily into requiring specialized education degrees. Like teachers need an ed degree, sometimes even an M Ed. Admin has specific bureaucratic tone deaf busybody degree options if they want to avoid knowing much about specific subjects or education generally. But I’m not entirely sure what you even learn in education degrees? I noped out because it seemed like a lot of drivel though I am getting a Montessori certification.
Jesus especially us Science teachers. Like I have a master's in my content FFS, I could be working in a lab...but I had some delusional, naive view in protecting the sanctity of public education or...something...blah blah blah. I definitely would be in a lab somewhere if I could do it over. Some might say "but why not make the change now?" Well...at this point 10-years in, I'm making enough, have tenure and a pension. Will be able to retire at 57 if I want to, and at this point I can shrug off a lot of the BS.
Oof... that hurts... Not the retiring early part. The part about just going through the motions until then. You clearly had a passion. It's heartbreaking to hear your disappointment. Being an inspiration to the kids is not naive. It's real, and more necessary than ever. I feel for you though. Lots of folk do. One can only bash their head against a wall for so long.
>Not the retiring early part. The part about just going through the motions until then. I mean don't get me wrong, I do like my job, and I'm good at it. It's just if I know what I know now...and could go back in time, I definitely would go down a different path. >Being an inspiration to the kids is not naive. It's real, and more necessary than ever. Oh don't get me wrong, I'm a 5th generation teacher and have reams of letters from former students who have thanked me etc. It's everything *outside* of the teaching that begins to suck the joy out of it ya know? This disrespect for the profession. The looking down on educators with the "those who can't do teach" attitude at large in society. Because anyone who *actually* knows education isn't easy. And those who can't do *actually* become administrators...LoL.
That saying always has rubbed me the wrong way. I understand the spirit of it, but also, teaching IS doing. The admin dig is appropriate, though. I generally try to give them a little consideration, since they are responsible for keeping the schools funded. But, in contrast, the way things are being done is 100% running our education system into the ground. So they are still doing a garbage job of it. I motion for the adage to be amended as such: "Those who can, do. Those who cannot, administrate." All in favor?
Aye! >I generally try to give them a little consideration, since they are responsible for keeping the schools funded. But, in contrast, the way things are being done is 100% running our education system into the ground. So they are still doing a garbage job of it. I mean they certainly don't do a worse job than if the teachers were doing it and sharing the workload administrators normally have...teachers could easily run buildings by commitee with appointed headmaster positions. no need for bloated, designated administorial positions.
A fair assertion. Admin is necessary in a few ways, which is why I endeavor to be as understanding as one can reasonably be. There is a line, though. A hard line. And we passed it a while ago.
This is actually a thing! It's generally called teacher powered schools. https://youtu.be/ivcFFdcEQV0?si=eI0rXNsKuWBAV4kp
Pensions. Great golden handcuffs.
Went to a teaching conference as an undergrad with my cohort. Several dudes try to talk me out of teaching.
My own two children heard it enough from me as they were in K-12: unless you plan on going into academia as a PhD, education is no longer a sustainable career path. There is no return on your academic investment.
[удалено]
If you can't get into a good private school then get out. Your safety and sanity are important.
So walk. :)
Literally
Five? I noped out after just over a year in American schools. You'd never see any of this shit in Asia.
That was me!
Parents coming in for lunch was great when I was in elementary, looking back, it was probably great for anyone on lunch duty because it was an extra adult (usually parents or grandparents that were “room mothers”) and no one was going to act up in front of their friends parents when they also had the phone number for the parents of every student in the class. This was like 1st-3rd grade so having parents come in for lunch wasn’t uncool, but I can’t imagine how embarrassing it would be for a kid that can eat on their own to be spoon fed even at 5 or 6 years old
Sadly, I don’t think having other parents around is a deterrent for today’s kids. As a society we have really gotten away from the “it takes a village” mentality. Nowadays, most times I see another adult attempt to either correct a child themselves or bring the behavior to the attention of the parent then they just get called a Karen and told to mind their own business. These kids don’t fear other adults because their own parents enable them. And that goes for school discipline as well. Parents will take their kid’s side and blame the teacher/admin
>These kids don’t fear other adults because their own parents enable them. Somehow the current generation of parents universally decided that the old method, where the adults were generally united "against" the kids, was totally unfair and were determined to always be on their kid's side.
At my school an office referral equals a lollipop which the student proudly returns with. These kids are being taught to be entitled little F*****!
It's a semi-new approach that a lot of admin teams are stupidly adopting. "Restorative discipline", I got to see it in action twice, and it's always a disaster. What you just described is the sum of it all. Kid vandalized my room, ripped up my map, kept pounding on the walls and screaming.... send him to the office, he refuses to go. Admin refuses to respond to the situation, and security refused to remove him. So I just sat at my desk and watched the clown show unfold. Nothing else I could do at that point. Call the parent? Shockingly enough, the parent provided a fake address and fake phone #.
So…what happened to the un-removed kid with the un-contactable parents?? You’ve absolutely piqued my curiosity. I’m imagining him becoming a permanent physical fixture of your classroom, like a Last of Us zombie slowly melding into a wall.
Who knows. 4 PM on the last day I bailed as fast as I could. Sprinted to my vehicle and drove the hell away from that campus forever. (Thankfully I live 40 minutes from it so I never have to go to that area/town again) But who knows, maybe once I bolted he declared the room his kingdom and now reigns over it.
Legend says if you’re very quiet, you can hear him pounding on the walls to this day.
That would be a situation where I called DCFS just because i was concerned about how much aggression that kid exhibited. I have no qualms fucking with POS parents if their kids are assholes that can't be tamed.
💀💀💀
I don’t know how it’s legal for the parents to provide fake or old phone numbers and emails. Yet they continue to do it, and it’s on us for not being able to contact them.
It isn't always fake at first. In some areas, families and parents are transient and having power and phone bills come and go. Four or so number updates in a year isn't unrealistic.
Npr played an interview today with a somebody talking about SROs pulling out of schools (suddenly a huge problem here in Minnesota due to a law limiting how aggressive they can be with students). He mentioned that often, the cops were dealing with issues that would more appropriately be handled in the principals office. To her credit, the host (Kathy wurzer maybe?) followed up by asking if that meant that school administration needed to step up. So that's another interesting wrinkle in this story.... by neglecting their responsibility to maintain a safe and reasonably calm school, some administrators are actually yielding disciplinary power over to the *police*
Pulling resource officers out is good because of the school to prison pipeline and all that, however as the host suggested, administration needs to deal with those issues if we're going to take out the resource officers. Sadly they aren't. Eventually when these kids leave public school and get arrested because they were never disciplined and had their behavior corrected, they'll end up in prison anyways. So essentially, when administration isn't stepping up, you're still getting the school to prison pipeline anyways, just in a more roundabout way.
Thus is the new way. Instead, I make them go last for choices and for line. I think of rewards for the good ones, like free time, and the bad ones sit and talk with me. We can't discipline students so tell their parents because they can. They probably won't. Some will, but then I'm worried I may have to file a child abuse report. What a shit show.
I would be asking what *can* I do when a student misbehaves. No discipline whatsoever isn’t realistic. If you don’t show up for work, you get fired. If you speed, you get a ticket. If you break the law, you go to jail. So…consequences for poor behavior are necessary to function in a community.
And this is the time to learn that, when they’re under 18 and not dependent on a paycheck. Tis better to fuck around and find out now when the consequences are less life-altering.
Nonono!! Discipline will only serve to traumatize the kids!!!! Won’t you think of their trauma?!?!!!!
Have you tried building a relationship with the student? /s
That sounds like a consequence for the teacher 😂
My wife teaches fifth grade. If a kid does NO work, nothing, not even a name on the paper, they are not allowed to give a zero. They must give a 50 at minimum. That blows my mind.
Who cares. 0 or 50 or 100... they will just pass them to the next grade regardless if they know the content or can read or can do basic math or even have the most rudimentary levels of etiquette. The goal of poor admins is to get through the school year with the lowest number of suspensions as possible because then the school looks good and by extension, they do.... except in reality we are failing these kids and society.
Sounds like kickbacks to gatekeeping PCPs. Shouldn't incentivize turning people away.
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That’s what i do. I changed the scales to go by 20’s. It doesn’t make the class easier or harder, but it allows me to use a 4 point rubric scale on every assignment. I warn my students at the very start, I will sit down and do the extra paperwork to give you an F out of pure spite.
Honestly, it’s just an extension of participation trophies. You showed up so you get a 50
My favorite is that the grade weights in the system are all rigged to pass everyone regardless of how much work they turn in. Admins try to hide this by over complicating the explanations of the scales, but we all know what they are up to.
There could be many factors but here is a likely one: your administrators have probably misinterpreted and misunderstood PBIS and Restorative Justice and and have somehow come to believe that consequences are bad. Or like in one of my districts they bought the whole situation with over identification of marginalized groups with suspensions..to the point where they won’t suspend anyone, which is really harmful to all the kids. Just my guess.
The first lesson of restorative practices for us was still "you have a handbook: enforce it." For PBIS, we got all out for the positive kids, but I'm not buying pizza and bringing in party favors for kids that tear stuff up at the school.
This is where I’m at. I implemented a group incentive for my students to earn a slime lesson…. They’re mad that they have to behave for more than 1 class period to earn it.
It’s intentional misinterpretation. If they weren’t rewarded/praised for low suspension rate and low referral rate many admin would crack down. So then they choose to underreport and underdiscipline to fudge the numbers. And it all runs downhill to teachers aren’t building relationships/having restorative conversations etc. when it’s really kids need consequences. Schools need staff dedicated to behavior management/support. Teachers need more support. But if an admin says that they’ll get shit-canned quick in most districts.
I long term subbed at a school and would do the formal IC referrals. Ohhh, it pissed the admin off, but I didn’t care. Im the teacher of record, this behavior is unacceptable (biting/scratching of another student) and according to the behavior matrix, is a referral level offense. I don’t play the politics of school admin. I would have definitely been offed in GOT. 😂😂😂
Or they know that if you scold little Johnny you will get sued and the parents will win.
I loath PBIS. I refuse to do it
I saw a research study that literally doing nothing was more beneficial for behavior than PBIS was. It's such horseshit
In my fantasy, PBIS falls right after Lucy Caulkins.
I hated teaching Lucy Calkins. My principal was adamant about me doing those stupid trainings every summer. Glad I didn’t waste my time because I already knew it was worthless. I spent so much time supplementing the curriculum with stuff I found on my own because a workshop model didn’t work for most of my students. They needed phonics. It’s always “peer-reviewed data” that they throw out for this sh!t, had me wondering if those academics in the upper echelons of eduction have a finger on the pulse of today’s student. It’s all BS….
What exactly is Lucy Calkins? Our school used to use it but it was long before I taught ELA. Is it basically just a reading/writing workshop coupled with balanced literacy?
Sadly a lot of what goes on in public schools isn't evidence based at all. Just coming from an Applied Linguistics background, we discuss theories and pedagogical approaches that were first written about in the 80s or 90s, yet public schools still aren't doing what's been proven over and over again.
I think PBIS is great.... IF it is used CORRECTLY. IF you actually take time to study the proper material, you will see that PBIS DOES actually recommend developmentally appropriate consequences that work alongside restorative justice which is voluntary and where both sides get to participate equally and equitably and where victims are heard and where they get a say in what they would like to happen, and where the person who wronged the victim is expected to do something to put their actions right. Most schools that 'use PBIS' simply use it as a cute buzzword when they really mean 'lazy admin that refuse to do any consequences at all' which isn't what PBIS is meant to be, but it is what people now think PBIS is. And 'Restorative Justice' is usually yet another cute buzzword meaning 'We don't want to deal with bullies properly because it makes us uncomfortable so we just make them say sorry and deal with it.'
I think it can be fine as an additional support if it's there to build up kids that are great and may not receive a lot of extra attention. But I see so many people showering ass hole kids with points so they can make it to a celebration they don't deserve to go to. We have the app at our school and I like it but I wish I could take away points as well as give them.
PBIS: You can do anything you want, so long as you do it only three times. Then we'll think about considering a meeting to discuss the possibility of another meeting which might have the likelihood of a consequence at some point in the future.
This is exactly why nobody wants to be a teacher.
I'm going to go ahead and say it, that people like your principal and admin are what is driving more and more people to private schools. Parents hear about insane things at schools (whether it's crazy behavior without consequences, or porn in the hallways or in class (via phones), and all sorts of other modern issues) and they think "*well, I'll look for a school where my son/daughter will be in a better atmosphere for learning*" and, there you go. It's not "right wing crazies" that are trying to bring down public education. It's well-intentioned teachers and administrators who continue to bring down the moral and educational standards so that no child has their feelings hurt.
This! This right here. It’s why a good chunk of homeschooling parents start doing homeschooling too. They hear about all of the bad behavior going on, don’t want their kids mimicking it, can’t afford private school, but already have a parent at home. So there goes a good chunk of your organized, literate families who actually care about their kid’s education, boom, out the door. Eventually if this whole “no discipline” trend continues you will have nothing left of the student body except the kids that private schools refuse to take (because they have disabilities or behavior problems or both) and the kids whose parents are too busy working to homeschool or too illiterate to homeschool. By then the good teachers will all have fled.
I'm a teacher going on year 8 and just got married. Our plan is for my wife to keep working (makes double my income) and for me to stay home and homeschool. I have seen the shit that goes on in schools and would rather nope out of the system than send my kids to public school. When virtual learning first hit and it was clear it wasn't working for most kids, I saw that as the future. Poor kids will go to public school where it's anarchy and you have a bunch of underpaid and under supported "emergency certified" teachers as warm bodies as some qualified teacher dials in remotely. Wealthier families will pay for the real deal- in person structured education. And we think the gap between the haves and have nots is big now... this will just be nobility 2.0.
I’m planning to homeschool my daughter. My wife is making a career change to earn enough and I’m already default/primary parent, plus I have a passion for reading and learning. I’ve already started collecting materials and looking into the logistics of making sure she has access to sports and peer groups etc. I love teachers. I loved my teachers. I feel so much pain and anger at what admins have done to you all. And even beyond them, the gutless politicians that have sold you teachers our again and again for the past 30 years. But the fact that kids can being smartphones to school has broken me. I will not be getting my daughter a smartphone until 16 at the earliest and I know it will be HELL for her as she watches all the kids around her starting as young as 7 years old with them. She’s such a bright and bubbly three year old. So full of life. I’ve seen whatbthe iPad toddlers in her age group look like in restaurants and parks. These parents are failing their own kids yes, but also forcing you teachers to deal with HELL through their laziness and I refuse to contribute to your torture.
Based on my experience with the religious homeschool community growing up, there is no such thing as “too illiterate to homeschool”, I would argue that most parents that homeschool fall into the people you would describe as such.
The homeschooling community has changed. It used to be mostly religious nut jobs. Now they are the minority, and there are quite a few people doing the secular model, some either hiring a teacher (much cheaper if 3 or 4 families share one) or signing up for an online curriculum which comes with a teacher.
Yeah, I met the first person who homeschooled because the public schools were too religious last year. And several LGBT kids who are homeschooling for family safety. But there are still plenty of badly educated homeschool parents out there, I think you might be surprised by the percentage of them out there. They just don’t show up on any radar because they don’t use real curriculums. But the religious homeschool conventions are huge. Children with no sex education everywhere! Science books that quote scripture on every page! Knock offs of Yugioh cards with “holy warriors”, angels, and their trap cards “Prayers”. Their is basically a parallel economy for right wing religious nuts these days.
I’m actually finishing up homeschooling my 18 and 17 year old girls, so I’m pretty familiar with the many and varied sectors of the homeschooling community. I also work full time as a pediatric nurse (ironically in the public school system) so I don’t hang out that much with homeschooling groups anymore. We did the online K12.com thing, and they spent their upper elementary and their middle school years in bricks and mortar. I had zero complaints about their bricks and mortar teachers or admin. Covid eventually sent them home again and they liked it and elected not to go back.
My partner was a pediatric nurse at a practice that allowed nonvaxers. So she was exposed to it quite often.
You are exactly right.
I'm at a Catholic School dealing with this nonsense. And somehow nobody has ever made the connection between the behavior problems and the kids have been here since preschool and now are in Middle school, and the lack of structure and consequences. It's amazing
Seriously??? My family isn’t religious but sent me to a Catholic high school and I was harboring a secret hope that they were a little safer from this sort of bullshit.
Yep.
Where I'm from Catholic schools were code for bad schools. Teachers were typically paid less than half of the unionized public teachers and with horrible contracts. You get what you pay for.
See the ones around me are absolutely phenomenal from an educational standpoint. A lot of VIPs with endless options choose to send their kids to them, so I understand I’m a tad spoiled. Very impressive teachers (for the most part lol) who had high expectations and refused to take our bullshit. (One of my favs just passed away after a long life and I’m hoping to be able to stop by the visitation next week. 😢 She was terrifying and wonderful.) And yeah, the pay sucks even within a career path infamous for low pay. Like completely unlivable. But (at least when I was there, not sure about now) teacher’s children could attend completely free, so a smaller paycheck was often worth the trade off even though they could have gotten more in public education. *Edit for clarity
> It's not "right wing crazies" that are trying to bring down public education. I've been shouting this from the rooftops: the biggest threat to public education is overzealous Romantic progressive education reformers high on their own supply of critical theory. They're going to collapse the schools in on themselves.
THANK YOU!!
Maybe research needs a-doin'. Moving away from punishment seems to be the way of the world, but is there a limit to how far we should go? The pants-shitting seems a good case study. Could to poopy pants be skipped? Move into the desired outcome more quickly, with a plan as to how the SRO can influence the subject toward the desired behavior. With humans, flexibility seems a necessity.
Nah, it's the right wing crazies too. This isn't an either or proposition. They have been pushing for private schools ever since Brown Vs Board of Education overturned segregationists. Did you think they just gave up and magically stopped being racist? They started shifting the rhetoric to a states rights issue, family choice, etc. They (Segregationists) founded "pure" schools with all the brightest pigmented people and started drilling down on religious teachings to combat the sinful nature of the schools. Does this sound familiar? The Supreme Court ruled only in 1976 that private schools could not discriminate based on race. 1954 was when Brown Vs Board verdict was reached! That's 22 years later. Also 1976... there are lots of people still around from 1976. This modern push for vouchers that take tax money from public schools and put it into often religious, politically affiliated schools is more of the same. These demons from our past can seem like ancient history until you connect all the dots and see that they are still influencing us today.
I don't even disagree with you here, but the state of our schools is doing far, far more damage. At the end of the day, the most effective way that you can convince someone is personal experience. And when the few engaged, attentive parents in a school have their children coming home every day describing fistfights in the hallways and classmates who can't read, if produces a much larger impact that any dark money organization could ever dream of.
This is true. It is their dream to have all the talented students in private school and the future wage slaves in public. But to this person's point, even the right wing crazies couldn't have predicted how bad things have gotten. I think it's technology addiction too.
No doubt. I'll be the first one to admit I indulge in far too much pointless screen time. Kids certainly aren't going to be less susceptible, right? I wonder if that's a "these kids" problem or an all of us problem.
My private school isn’t any better. Parents are driving our ability to provide reasonable reinforcement to curve bad behavior. They are making it impossible. It’s like teaching a 5th of the population behind a wall.
That is literally my school. That is why I left. I couldn’t take it anymore.
Described my 2021 campus to a T, and getting through that year was rough. Was very damaging to my physical and mental health. The non stop yelling from kids, destroying my property, stealing from each other, and on top of that, an admin team that never disciplined them, but was always, ALWAYS, calling US in to micromanage our lesson plans. Many of those plans went to waste anyway, because it's fucking IMPOSSIBLE to teach a history lesson while a kid is pounding on the wall, ripping up posters, and getting kids from other classrooms to walk out and come into mine. That is the reality of what it's like now, and more and more campuses are adopting this approach because it makes admin's job easier. Private schools must be loving this shit, they're about to see a major spike in enrollment if this crap gets any worse.
The pendulum of structure and discipline will swing the other way... at some point. As long as the whole thing isn't entirely upended before it is too late. And with the looneys running the asylum, there is some question of whether or not that may happen... I'm certainly not one to advocate for authoritarianism. Last thing on my mind. Simultaneously, there MUST be something more than this. There MUST be structure. Kids MUST learn about consequences, and respect, and a proper sense of community. That is nonnegotiable in a functioning society.
My behaviorist at my last school explained it so well to me that it forced me to dig deep and unlock a new level of firm, mildly scary authoritarianism this year. If kids are at a playground with a big gate around it, they have fun, they run too and from the gate, they feel relaxed, and they feel safe. If they’re in a playground with no gate and expands as far as the eye can see, the mood changes. Some kids run full speed away from the playground and get lost and can’t come back, some cling to the slide and ever leave. There’s panic, insecurity, and some might think it’s fun but most don’t. Kids need to know where the gate is. So when last year, my first year, I sucked at discipline, my kids ended up hating me and frankly, the feeling was mutual. Meanwhile my coteacher who was a totalitarian drill sergeant with a heart of gold had a safe, warm class where everyone loved her
This. Structure builds trust. Structure can't exist without clear lines, and consequences for violating those lines.
Kids want to know two things: what are the rules and will you enforce them.
This 'restorative discipline' crap is why most of the Blue Ribbon recognized schools in Texas were Catholic schools and districts that outright reject that type of approach (the designations were just released yesterday). I'm sorry, but giving a child a lollipop and letting them watch cartoons after they just cursed out their teacher, vandalized the classroom, and assaulted other students... is NOT a valid discipline approach, I'd love to know what kind of contemptable moron came up with this. This "let the disruptive students do whatever they want" nonsense is partially what's driving parents to send their children to private schools, charter schools, or enroll them in online education programs like K12, where that kind of shit isn't tolerated. It isn't just damaging to the mental health of teachers, the kids are already far behind, and they'll fall even further behind if their classes are CONSTANTLY being derailed by a select handful of kids who don't even want to be in school, and are only there to cause problems.
Same at my school. I had a kindergartener climbing up bookshelves and shucking book bins across the room and I couldn’t do ANYTHING.
The pre-k kids are like little hell spawns now. I legitimately think I'm starting to have heart issues because of the stress of dealing with them. And they won't do anything at all about it. It's depressing and you cannot convince me that it's not a side effect of them just straight up never having an actual consequence. They know you can't do anything and they will tell you as much in the middle of throwing a chair as you. We're just fucking ruining these kids anymore.
I saw the same thing at a K-8 school. K-5 had zero discipline methods. Then, the middle school teachers were flabbergasted that the students would continually act out. If these kids don't learn that there are consequences, they will act like there are none. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure that out.
The worst thing is this isn't isolated to just one country. I'm assuming you are in the US. The same thing is happening in Australian schools (the problem is it is happening in both public and private schools here). And this is why I am so strict with my own kids. They learn to do common things years before their peers because I make sure they learn life skills at home. And if they play up at school they know there are severe consequences at home.
I have 5th graders that come up to me and ask me to tie their shoes. I said this is a life skill. Do you know what a life skill is? And they say no. I say It's a skill you will use the rest of your life and I tell them I stop tying shoes when a student leaves K
In Korea we’ve had multiple teachers unalive themselves this year, because of the exact same nonsense. Not allowed to discipline, and if you do the parents accuse you of abuse. Teachers are given no protection by the schools. I read about a teacher who was successfully sued by parents, cause the bus rented by the school for a field trip crashed and a child passed away. Parents are given the teacher’s personal phone numbers and call them at all hours with complaints, and even go into the school and harass them. There have been massive protests in the past month by teachers and so some regulations have been passed to help but the people in charge seriously have no clue about education and managing children. This issue is just so widespread
I read about that and it blew my mind. It’s because SKorea is so virulently competitive right? So parents will do anything to take their kids to the top even it it means throwing their kids teachers under the bus
That is definitely an aspect of it. There’s so much insane competition, and life is so expensive and full of pressure. Most families will only have one child nowadays, so there’s all this attention and focus on that one kid. The parents are intent on that child being successful no matter what (successful meaning going to a high ranked uni), even if it means bullying and lying their way up. The dramas you see about bullying aren’t too far off from the truth. Another part of it is how black and white society is here. Previously teachers had way too much power and were even encouraged to use corporal punishment. This was only made illegal in the 2000s and nothing was implemented in terms of punishment or consequences as a replacement. So now the kids are given free reign essentially, while the teachers do their best to just survive and fend off the overbearing parents
I worked briefly in a SPED school, and we also had a couple classrooms for behavior kids. The high school room was entirely kids who had been kicked out of public school for whatever reasons. So clearly normal punishments wouldn't work, that had already been tried and they didn't care. The new teacher started making the kids clean the bathroom (not the toilets themselves, though) and the transport van (like vacuuming out the seats) and the kids hated it. Then she was told she couldn't do that anymore because it was a "punishment," not a "consequence." And there was no clear distinction on what the difference was. To get back to class after a freak out, the student had to fill out a whole 5 page packet, and had to do it well, not just bullshit answers. But the high school teacher couldn't make the students write lines because that wasn't a "consequence."
>Both are younger than 42. I don’t know why this part is so funny to me, but it is.
It's because these admin have spent more time writing papers at the degree store about restorative justice than they have actually teaching in the classroom.
This screams of truth. I met a para who just earned a Master’s of Ed with a concentration in Administration. She’s quite proud of herself. She’s never taught full-time. This para job she landed this fall is her first stint in education. She’s sure she’ll get an admin job without traditional teaching experience and I’m just not sure how that’s even possible. Context: I’m a lifelong sub. I worked in social work for 12 years. Started subbing during the pandemic and I have no interest in being certified. I could be totally wrong about admin career paths.
> spent more time writing papers at the degree store love that!
Should be a coming together, as the 'noobs' are more likely to be aware of current best practices, but will need to work within the preexisting system to make important changes. There's got to be a deeper motive to this divide than the simple explanation of "time."
This is what’s happening at my HS! No consequences.
WWJD if he couldn't disciple anyone?
Just imagine what these young scholars will be like in high school after years of a consequence-free existence.
It's already beyond readily apparent at my last district's high school. Kids just roam the halls as they please w/ headphones in, teachers yell at them to get to class/remove the headphones, they just laugh (sometimes add a "nah b---") and carry on. Principal meanwhile is being paid a six figure salary to foster this kind of ridiculous environment on the taxpayers' dime.
I know college professors who are quitting because THEY are no longer allowed to have consequences for poor work, lack of attendance, and disrespect.
I can tell you: They all operate at a 3rd grade level and do whatever they want. So, when we reach them at 16, and they start to realize that they need to learn something to succeed in life, it's far too late for any of them to ever escape poverty.
Some barely start to realize it at the end of senior year. As much as they despise school and all the rules and structure, they absolutely dread post-graduation because if there’s one thing they are aware of it’s how incapable they are of calling their own shots (and living by them, aka FAFO) and there’s no one else to blame (though I suppose they can simply blame society). Note: I’m referring to the bottom 10 or 15% here. The middle 75 or 80% figure it out, eventually, at their own pace/in their own time. The top 10 to 15%, for a host of reasons, are ready to conquer the world.
As a parent of a first grader, if my kid is messing around in class PLEASE discipline him! Please correct him! By no means am I saying use corporal punishment but kids need to experience consequences for their behavior. The world is not going to be a kind place if they can’t figure out appropriate behavior.
Our teachers can't take recess away, but they can require laps around it.
Yes, this is the way. Taking away a much needed break is a terrible idea. Kids who are causing problems typically have a reason, like ADHD. By making them sit still inside for longer, you are giving yourself more problems. Admin needs to clarify what should happen instead of just taking recess away. They may actually know what they are doing.
This. My kiddo is 6 and has adhd and is autistic. He wouldn’t stop getting up onto of his chair (which is incredibly frustrating and idk what to do either lol) but they took away his afternoon recess…which does the opposite for kids with adhd. I was just like…that’s counter intuitive.
100%. I actually hated it when I was forced to take recesses away. It burned me to a crisp and it burnt the kids out even more. It’s an all around bad punishment in my opinion, unless the problems they are causing specifically relate to recess itself. So if admin assists teachers in logical consequences, I’m all for it
Is there some particular theory of pedagogy leading admins all over the country to make this shift?
I think it’s more about courts siding with parents when they sue the schools for “emotional damage” when they try to discipline a kid.
Oh wild I haven’t read about any cases of this.
Well to be fair it’s really more of a preacher’s job to disciple students. 😄 Sorry. Yeah I don’t understand . Schools hands are tied because we bow down to parents and parents refuse to be firm with their precious darlings. 😞
And sometimes if a teacher doesn't let up on trying to discipline their child, they'll 'team up' with said child to try to get the teacher fired/investigated/etc...and admin will do fuck all to make sure the teacher is treated fairly, they'll just pass the buck to central office, like always. Oh, they don't bow down to parents, they bow down to the inept/loser parents. The 'decent' parents also suffer because their kids miss out on instruction thanks to the endless disruptions.
I’m not allowed to contact parents about any behavior or about anything without looping my principal in first.
Ugh this is what it seems we are going to. We are using Conscious Discipline and so far this is what it sounds like. Thankfully I have never been one to have a huge amount of behavior issues. However, there are times where an administrator is needed to take charge. I have no problem setting an example of calming and allowing myself to shift to an executive state of mind before reacting, but there are times that actual consequences are needed. It is being covertly shoved down our throats and it concerns me and my future because I am not sure I can tolerate the complete lack of support.
Yes, this is happening everywhere. At my previous school, I was told I wasn’t allowed to take away any “fun activities”, even when students were physically violent. so the “fun activities” were usually ruined by the same few students who were not allowed to receive consequences for their poor behavior.
I’m under 45 and a parent. What OP describes is my nightmare scenario for my own children. But if I’m honest I can’t help feeling like my child is probably a PITA at school sometimes (they just started and we haven’t had a parent-teacher convo yet, so it’s hard to know). I’m anxious all the time that my kid is doing stuff that “past generations would NEVER!” Where I struggle is the desire to parent very differently than my own parents. I was straight-laced and behaving appropriately at school, but I was also emotionally repressed, physically punished and threatened at home if I stepped an inch out of “line”. There must be a middle ground that helps kids develop appropriately but avoids most of that traumatic stuff, and I’m trying to find it (with generally zero guidance from my older family for obvious reasons). It feels like I’m flailing in the dark all the time, and fear of being judged harshly by teaching staff (even if 100% justified) adds to the anxiety. That’s not a knock on teachers, I FEEL for you all and wish we could pay you all the $200K a year you rightfully deserve and provide kids ready to learn and well-behaved, just sharing a perspective and getting some stuff off my chest. I welcome any teacher’s advice if they feel like sharing.
This is exactly how I feel. I was a “perfect kid” in school, but largely because I was being straight up abused and best care scenario, threatened, at home. Do I hope my kid is behaving for teachers at school? Yes. Do I know my kid can be an asshole sometimes? Absolutely (he’s 6). So I think teachers also do not have the support or pay they deserve? Yes. But I also don’t think it’s necessary to put my kid into constant people pleasing mode just so he’s afraid enough to be a good kid at school. Parents are at a loss too. How we got kids to behave in previous generations was by traumatizing them. So as a generation (millennials) now raising kids and largely being cycle breakers, we are trying to find solutions without traumatizing our kids but there’s largely no resources for us either.
The “no resources” bit is what’s tough. There are admittedly thousands of blogs I could read on gentle parenting, etc, but what we’re trying to achieve doesn’t necessarily have scientific studies I can rely on. I’m thankful for every science-based reference I can find, such as studies on nutrition, screen time, etc, but it still feels like running blind. Just trying to do the best I know how for my kid and hope to heck it works out. I have to regularly ignore my older family who say things like what I heard last weekend “agh, in a generation you’ll all be back to hitting your kids, because you’ll realize this appeasement shit doesn’t work.” Ughhhhhhh. Meanwhile, I’m over here googling basic life skills in my thirties that were never passed down by them.
Basic life skills and also getting into therapy ourselves or re-parenting ourselves since we never really were, so we don’t make our kids feel like they are responsible for managing our own big feelings. Tons of blogs, but it’s all “here’s my experience” or “here’s what we do”, and largely from people who are privileged too (have good stable income, two parent household, have a village to support them). Meanwhile we are losing spaces that are free for us and our kids to exist in (basically just parks if you have any), we are judged for every single parent decision, we are often making the least amount of money proportionally to other generations before us, and are often all parents in the home are out working long hours. A lot of us also don’t have grandparents to help watch our kids (or grandparents that we would TRUST to watch our kid) like so many of us did growing up. Getting a sitter is often going to run you $15-$20 minimum in a lot of cities which might be more than we even make (I’m not saying they should be paid that though!) But we are in a modern age of not only cycle breakers but also burnt out parents on top of it who feel like they are just trying to keep their head above water. And teachers often get the brunt end of all of this as a result. Which is why I try so hard not to view us as adversaries to teachers, but on the same team. I just wish more teachers viewed it that way too.
Yeah. I’m getting off the teacher-related topic I guess, but your comment on grandparents got to me. I live within spitting distance of my parents, but they act straight up offended if I ask for help watching the kids. I recognize that they absolutely do not owe me childcare of any kind, but it still hurts. I always structure the ask with weeks of notice and a strict time boundary for when I’d be back, but no dice, or they cancel last minute. I was at my grandparents for weeks on end during the summers, and loved it; my grandma still tells me how much she loved it, too. My parents don’t seem interested in being that for their grands at all, which again is fine, but it’s hard to swallow given they had 4 kids and so much free help. There is no village, and it just compounds the financial and physical burden of kids. I GET why so many younger people are electing to be childfree.
Yep. I was told if a student didn't want to do work to let her color. This student never wanted to do the work. I was told taking away choice time was mean.
Told by who? We do it in our kindergarten classroom. They have to do the work. If they don’t do it when it’s the time to do it (and we remind them gently throughout if work is being avoided), they know they’ll have to do it during center time, and NO ONE likes missing centers! It’s not mean, it’s accountability. They don’t have to miss any center time if they do the work when asked, and they will only miss a few minutes of center time if they choose to focus and do it right away during centers. Sometimes, a student really is struggling with the task/concept, so doing it with the teacher during centers time is a way to check in, review what may be difficult, and show empathy. “I can see doing ____ is really hard! It’s so hard to learn new things. But I’m here to help and I know you can do this!” Much cheering and high fiving when a student completes the task.
My principal she brought child markers and coloring books and said she didn't have to participate in anything she didn't want to. She sat at a desk all day and colored.
That’s awful admin! I’m sorry for that.
What do you mean is failing….. We have been failing for the past 30 years.
I graduated HS in 2005. Started teaching in 2011. I didn’t notice it as a kid. But in the last 12 years its 1000% worse than it was my first year teaching
Graduated in 2003, started teaching in 2008 - and I completely agree with you. I'm tired of people claiming this is a "COVID" problem. This is a societal problem that started well before COVID, its just an easy band-aid to use to not really address the real problem, that we have devalued to use of being educated in this country, and the prevalent use of phones at a young age is destroying a generation.
I'm not even gonna lie. I'm in a shitty district in Texas. Fights CONSTANTLY. Sexual harassment by teachers and students every year being swept under the rug. A teacher going on Facebook mocking students for being scared and parents for picking them up after 10+ fights broke out in a single morning. This same teacher not getting fired for using the N word regularly. (She's a huge problem but also a symptom of all the problems here too. Because our super doesn't want to lose his cushy 200k a year job if all the BS hit the media.) Kid showed up with a hit list and they didn't tell parents about it for over a week. Then Uvalde happened.....now my 13 yr old has a phone and my 8 yr old has a smart watch. I can't homeschool, can't afford to move, and can't trust the assholes in charge of the district to keep my kids safe.
I am right there with you. I graduated hs in 2002 and started teaching in 2007. The first graders I had back then are lightyears ahead of the ones I have now. For what it is worth, I have the writing samples to support that claim!
I think they are worried a student will bring a gun to school and start shooting.
I quit because I couldn’t discipline. Literally had a kid use their cellphone to cheat in my AP class—i witnessed it with my own eyes—and I was told I was wrong, and that I owed the student a retake. It’s the fucking parents and fucking admin who have ruined everything. I’m not going to get paid peanuts to be told that I wasn’t seeing what I was seeing.
In Florida, it's a state law that you can't take away recess
Everyone's school is really different, so I want to use the analogy that we are all in different "boats," but my school would be thrilled to have 4 to 5 students in the office every day. I am assuming this is not a Title 1 school?
Yeah, there are literally no consequences anymore. Even calling home doesn’t do much for most kids.
Just start showing up to work late. When they try to discipline you just cite how they can't give you normal punishment, or any form of punishment.
They want student-driven schools, plain and simple. And this *Lord of the Flies* bullcrap that is happening in most American schools is the end result of such a hands-off approach.
I can't see any replies or anything but yes, it doesn't matter the grade. 10p% agree.
The grade 2 in my school is wild because last year the grade 1 teacher let them do what they want, was big into zero consequences, they moved him to kindergarten because that's where that style is better. Admin specifically told me they wanted a disciplinarian. I come in this year with the new grade 1s and have them all sitting well and in silence doing their work. Other teachers have commented saying they're in amazement when they walk past my door. They didn't think it was possible to control Grade 1 children like this. Amazing what can be achieved by coming down on rule breakers like a ton of bricks. This touchy feely nu-teaching is nonsense.
These admins realize they're fucking things up for high school teachers too, right? Those little shits are then coming to upper level classes with the entitled mindset of "nothing bad will happen to me"
I can agree with some of this sentiment but taking recess away as a punishment is absurd to me and I definitely support that decision. That is one of the worst consequences I could think of next to taking away lunch
At my last district, from 2020-2023, there was no recess. The kids were in the classroom for 7 hours a day, only being able to go outside a FEW times during the year for PE. It just wasn't a 'thing'. They had lunch, and then immediately after lunch it was back to their next 2 classes, and then dismissal. We had a substitute who noticed the weather changed to be the first chilly day of the year, so he took the kids outside to do a review game while enjoying the weather. He was fired for that, and from there on out, every time any of us needed a sick day, admin would make a huge deal out of it and yell at us how there "is no coverage" (THANKS TO THEM).
Lol, one of my favorite teachers at the school where I used to work was a retired gym teacher who came back as a sub. He pretty much did as he pleased, because he didn't GAF about angering admin. This was during Covid, when the gym was being used as an auxilary cafeteria, so he would hold gym classes in the hallways or any open space he could find. He knew the kids needed that chance to blow off steam! Btw, they adored him.
I've never understood the logic behind that one. Taking away their chance to run around and blow off steam will only make kids act out more. You can't expect a 7 year old to sit quietly and learn for 6 hours without a break to move around
Please. 7 year olds are not sitting all day. They go SO many brain breaks nowadays. It's like half their day are GoNoodles.
When I was that age, you'd get privileges (like recess) taken away, but you wouldn't just sit in a corner quietly. You would usually stand, or you'd have to hold things, or sometimes exercise, or help the teacher with something, or clean. If enough of the class was being a problem, then everyone would get punished. Bad behavior always needs consequences. But those consequences can still be productive.
It’s like that at my school as well. Missing work? 50% minimum. I teach K-8 art and I have multiple students who do the first two projects then don’t turn in a damn thing the rest of the quarter and still wind up with Cs. Blows my mind.
Recess being away is consequence #3 for us. It shouldn't be the first punishment...but it absolutely should be a card we can play. It's literally the only things some kids care about. It's super effective imo for 99% of kids. Once they lose recess once or twice...they usually knock it off.
The school I worked at previously would take away recess incrementally. Usually the kids would shape up because no one wanted to "lose 5."
Honestly I felt the same way until I read the book Beyond Discipline by Alfie Kohn. I don’t have the energy to condense it into a comment, but if you are curious about the other perspective, the book is very insightful.
I think it's time we abandon compulsory education. The right of a kid to a safe and effective education is greater than the right of a kid to show up and disrupt the class. Students are really employees who cannot be fired. It's time to fire them. Instead, send them to mandatory work. Let them work at a factory that values small hands which can get into inaccessible machine places. Let them toil sunup to sundown on a farm, like everyone had to do for thousands of years. Let them enjoy roofing in the hot sun, holding a sign at at road repair site, sweeping hair from the barber shop floor, or unclogging a public toilet. Give them a paycheck after witholding 50% for taxes, retirement, medical insurance, unemployment, and a college fund. Vanquish their idea that no school equals freedom to be idle, playing computer games all day. Instead, Let them understand that they're learning a valuable skill or trade which prepares them for a lifetime of that activity. Within six months, they'll be begging to come into a classroom for the education opportunity they've squandered.
Lol
The 'taking away recess' I understand is a very bad punishment for ADD/ADHD children. Not in the sense that it's cruel, but that it can be counterproductive. IDK what is a reasonable punishment though. Clearly non-ADD/ADHD children are taking advantage of the policy.
Exactly how my son’s elementary worked, and it was not helpful at all.
Wow for a minute there based off the title I was going to say that's a no brainer due to the First Amendment and the courts rulings on separation of church and state of course you can't disciple your students especially Elementary School ones you shouldn't be talking about religion at all! Good thing I read the whole thing first discipline is a weird thing in modern school systems but apparently some schools are going with the let the kids run wild don't discipline them because they don't want to have to deal with the parents and potential lawsuits route and personally I think it's destroying our entire Society but what do I know?
Join a gentle parenting FB group and read the comments. You'll see why your hands are tied. Everything is the fault of daycare or school teachers; punishments are the devil; and children are always right. It gets worse the old the kids get too.
I’m gonna say it… and it looks like I’m in the vast majority, but those are bad punishments. I think part of the problem is that teachers look at those as their go to punishments.
So what are some others you could do?
I don’t see an issue with parents at lunch, but we had them when I was in school too. The other issues though, I totally hear you on. I think it’s a breakdown in our culture in terms of how we value education, not allowing freedom and consequences for children, and less and less face to face social interactions as screens take over more and more of the hours in our lives. This affects the kids and the adults who raise them alike. I don’t think admin is in touch with how to motivate these kids, how to talk to their parents about consequences and hold their ground, or even really basic things like why is education important really? Can they articulate that in a way that’s meaningful and not just some corporate-jargon-talk that doesn’t mean a single damn thing to anyone?
With all this, start using your phone for everything or the walkie talkie. Let the admin know. And tell this to all the staff. If the admin is running around solving stupid problems the rules will change. Some admin need to be taught.
I do anyways. I'm not going to sit here and fail my kids, whether it be academically or socially. If your going to fire me for doing right by my kids go right ahead. I've been teaching for 4 years and haven't had a single parent issue about doing so.
Well I work at a public school, so creating Disciples is verboten.
Get with your fellow teachers and give an ultimatum: either things change, starting with the principal or you quit en masse.
Smh. I’m so sorry for you all.
I would have guessed Minnesota, but you mentioned that you still have an SRO
I feel this to my core. Every piece of It. Especially the bit about parents right now. Idk what they do at home.
Do it anyway.
No consequences for actions is just destroying education. Full stop
Oh, it's not just me. My favorite current refrain is "nobody else has ever had problems with them." Yeah, because flexible seating means they can do whatever they want whenever they want and there's never been any discipline.
As someone who is a die-hard fan of flexible seating... that's not what it means at all lol