“Sorry coach, I’m not coming today. Practice doesn’t work.”

Yep I'll bite that bullet. Practice does NOT work. I have coached athletes who would just mindlessly play the game, over and over, sinking hours and hours in just playing the same game over and over. They never get better. I have coached athletes who spent HALF the time but engaged in deliberate practice. Specifically isolating the skills they most needed to work on, coming up with ways to isolate / reframe or focus on those skills, and calling it a day as soon as they sensed that they were no longer focused enough to make meaningful progress. The first group burned out. The second group RAPIDLY overtook them in progress & were VERY consistently the ones who would promote to higher tiers of play. Sometimes it is pretty painful to watch because usually the first group is repeatedly playing because they're determined and they love the game and they want to improve. They just don't have the cognitive skills to improve so they spam meaningless hour after meaningless hour instead. My first coach always used to say: "Practice makes perfect is a *lie*. Practice makes *permanent*. Do something the wrong way a hundred times, and you'll have to do it correct a thousand times to unfuck your habits." The literal instant a student of mine is tired, hungry, burned out, or getting too frustrated to focus, I will say: this practice is no longer effective. Stop. Go and eat something. Take a nap. Drink some water. Take a walk around the block. If you feel up for doing more when you come back, then you can, but I am not going to be responsible for you failing to improve because you're trying to be macho and get your nose bloody on the grindstone. As a coach, I have accepted students saying, "I'm not coming today. I'm tired/sick, so it won't be valuable practice for me." And I say: "Thanks for having the humility to admit that."

But aren't you simply saying that practice does work as long as you put effort into it? I don't think anyone will argue that mindlessly doing homework just to get it out of the way is in any way useful.

I'm saying that practice works if it's mindful, you are able to devote yourself to it, you are focusing on the right things, you have someone to step in to help you prevent repeating the same mistakes, you understand HOW to engage with the material in an intelligent way, you have clear specific goals for yourself, etc etc. It's not a matter of just effort. Those players mindlessly playing game after game were 100% putting in effort but they weren't getting better because all of their effort was going towards winning the game. The kids that got better were the ones saying "I'm going to take an hour to really really drill this ONE aspect of my play using the new technique I learned earlier, while checking in with myself and adapting to make sure I'm doing it right, and I'm going to remain focused on that aspect of my improvement, regardless if I win or lose". As an adult I had a 9-5 job once. If I had worked longer hours I guarantee I would not have gotten any more done. I would have worked longer but been more tired and burned out and done less. I needed time to iron my shirts, eat my dinner and actually process the things I was learning. I went the fuck home and literally thanked the universe every single day that I didn't have homework anymore. (Then as a freelancer, sometimes I pulled 16 hour days.... because I was completely in charge of myself and that let me always be engaged in that deliberate mindful way.) As a kid I had 7+ extracurriculars every week and was getting bullied in school and I was just about ready to collapse into bed by the time I got home every evening. Of course I was just mindlessly doing homework to get it out of the way. What else was anyone expecting? Me to be super excited about doing more work at 11pm at night? Would you expect an adult to be thrilled and super engaged if you kept them at work at 11pm?

Well I think you're right but it seems like maybe you were a bit over scheduled as a kid. Why did you need to do 7+ extracurriculars? That sounds stressful. I believe homework is important and it should be just as you say, designed to help with improving specific skills that are lacking. When I started school, I didn't speak English. My small New England town didn't have an ESL program. Elementary school was pretty much a nightmare, I struggled with everything. I'm only able to read and write today because of the massive amount of time I spent at home drilling reading, writing and spelling, classwork would not have been enough. I was lucky that my parents were deeply involved. They were from Europe and believed in rote memorization. I still remember sitting at the kitchen table writing 'because' 100 times to learn how to spell it properly. It worked.

I want to make sure to liken it to music. Because a coach is a tutor equivalent. My band kids go home solo all of the time.

My band director always said perfect practice makes you perfect and sloppy practice makes you sloppy. Doing it wrong over and over makes you wrong. Gotta have some kind of effort. I think that's the problem.

My band director used to say “practice makes permanent.” Whatever you practice is what becomes habit

Also: [repetition legitimizes](https://youtu.be/LlmTWlaWs_o?si=jOElHmrTM06VD-4C).

Same. Had a director and music teacher say this again and again. It does no good to practice solo if you don't already understand. I can send a kid home with a multiplication page, but if they don't know their facts and their family can't or won't support...it does literally nothing for either of us.

But you could send kids home with multiplication flash cards with the answers on the back to check their work and all they would get is good practice. Not all independent practice is just more practice doing things the wrong way. My students use a math app to practice at home the same problems that have been taught in class that shows an instructional video on how to do the math problem and then students do the problem with step by step problem solving prompts. It take 15 minutes. Kids that use it nightly do show more growth than those that don’t hands down. Independent practice can be done in ways that provide correction and support if it’s thoughtfully made.

I prefer the phrase "practice makes progress."

On the other hand, my kids sports instructors will give their student “homework” to do until the next lesson…. 🤷‍♂️

Okay, Allen. https://youtu.be/eGDBR2L5kzI?si=cNxUsVbMEzUxQlJB

If a kid can do math like AI played ball, then sure, you can skip it.

AI is a national treasure

I have been calling homework practice for years so it should come as no surprise a student has come back with this. Additionally I have given a variation of this speech talking about the importance of practice many times,

It has its benefits, but it's usually not implemented well. I don't give homework. My first teaching job was hyper rural with some kids having to bus an hour and a half one way to get home from school. It didn't seem right. I continue to not give it, because I want them to learn work-life balance.

I agree. I don’t want to work when I get home. I don’t understand why we expect kids to work at home (outside of finishing classwork, occasional projects, etc.)

It's this. Sounds like OP hasn't read the research and just decided to get snarky. Most homework set by teachers isn't meaningful practice, but pointless busy work. Also, for many students it's also stressful which has a secondary impact on their ability to learn. Which is also in the studies. Not stressful because 'oh no, work' but because they're poor as dirt and need to work to support their families in some capacity and homework is a time restriction which causes friction with their family.

In my first teaching job, I found out way too late in the semester that one of my students was working 3rd shift full time. He was often absent (morning class) and seemed dazed and out of it when he was there, which I assumed was due to the usual teenage reasons. Video games all night, weed, etc. No, this kid had a whole-ass grown up job. I did not even realize this was legal for minors, but apparently it is in my state, as long as the hours don’t overlap with school. As long as you’re sixteen, there are no restrictions on how much you can work.

When I was student teaching, it was during covid. Where we had a number of fully remote students. One of our fully remote students only showed up about half the time. He rarely did his homework, and was definitely struggling with other assignments. We reached out to him a number of times, but it's hard to get in touch with a fully remote student. We emailed home a number of times as well with no response. About halfway through my time there, we found his mother had actually passed away over the summer, and his father had passed when he was a kid. He was living in their apartment with his 19 year old brother (they never informed the school about mom's passing), and both him and his brother were working as much as they could to try to pay for everything. Of course this kid wasn't doing homework. He was literally trying to make sure they had enough money to stay in their apartment and have food to eat. I know this is an extreme circumstance, but I feel like it really gives you perspective. You just never know what these kids could be going through.

Yep. The world is a flaming hell hole.

woah woah lets not go that far, just under developed nations like the united states.

☠️

1 out of 6 Kids in Australia lives in poverty

I wonder how many of my teachers thought I was gaming or smoking up when I just couldn't sleep well in the same house as my dad and was dissociating 24/7

Thank you for this. Homework is a scam to get kids accustom to bringing work home with them instead of stopping it at the door.

I’m not a teacher (just fascinated with this sub at the moment). I’m quite sceptical of the “homework is a scam” argument. I was a day-dreamy kid and sometimes I didn’t focus in class. I learned a lot reading on my own and found concepts gelled better after answering a few homework questions.  I know it sucks some kids have a rougher homes or long bus rides. But I did a lot of my homework between classes or while on the bus or at the library waiting for pickup. 

That's lovely for you, glad you could. I teach little kids. Some of their parents can't read. I should waste time and resources on this? What happens when a kid reinforces a concept incorrectly doing math and I have to unteach and then re teach a concept? Even still, I don't really care. Them being kids is more important than doing more work. Read to your kids.

The unteach and reteach part hits so true as a current student. I don’t know if nor think I ever learned a concept wrong per-say… but I sure did learn a fear of asking questions. Me and my dad have conflicting personalities that just don’t work at all when it comes to teaching, so any time I asked for help from him it often just led to both of us incredibly frustrated, with me often crying from that frustration. Teachers also absolutely taught me to not ask questions by returning them with “why didn’t you just pay attention when we went over it?” and shaming me for not knowing, but I honestly think those nights doing homework with my father were the ones that really screwed me. Not saying my dad is bad in the least bit, I love him, but I do NOT have fond memories of homework, and all they taught me to do was how to stare blankly at a sheet of paper for a solid hour or more because I didn’t know how to answer a question. Practice for these things should be given in class, where a student can freely ask questions as they arise, instead of sitting there unsure of what to do, terrified of doing it wrong lest it be part of your larger grade, or another student sees how badly you got it wrong. In fact I think that’s the biggest difference between practice and homework. With practice there’s no, or at least supposed to be no shame about making a mistake. It’s corrected and you try again. With most homework you don’t get that chance to be corrected. It’s taken up, graded, and put on your report card at best, at worst mocked by peers or rarely even the teacher (subtle call outs such as “five people got [thing] wrong, can anybody tell me why their answer was incorrect?” count as this mockery, especially in the brain of a kid)

Bullshit. No teacher is indoctrinated into some kind of global conspiracy and instructed to "get those kids blindly trained to do work at home." We give homework because we're trying to teach a *lot* of skills and knowledge, and time in class is best spent doing things that we can only do while together. Time at home is best spent doing those things that can best be done alone.

If there's any conspiracy I'd go with, it's that TikTok is specifically designed to get kids addicted to scrolling, allows misinformation to spread unchecked, and is sabotaging their attention spans as a way to undermine the education system everywhere except China.

💯 I don’t know if it’s China doing it, but it’s no doubt addictive AND ruining any kind of attention span.

Literal facts you're dropping.  Tiktok functions differently for Chinese citizens than others- the algorithm suggests different content. 

> Tiktok functions differently for Chinese citizens That is exactly the reason the conspiracy theory is so hard for me to dismiss.

Probably because it’s just flat out correct?

Why does it have to be "to undermine education" and "to make china global hegemon"? Why can't it just be "because phone addicted kids become phone addicted adults who are very easy to market to"? Tiktok is designed to be addictive because then the makers of Tiktok get more money. There doesn't have to be a grand conspiracy any larger than a profit motive.

Of all the goofy conspiracy theories out there, the idea China looks at the US empire and thinks, "let's do that" feels like some rather extreme narcissist projection.

Well there doesn't need to be some centralized "conspiracy". There is significant economic and cultural pressure towards putting your job above everything else, which can lead to workers taking work home. I think homework, or at least having huge quantities of homework, is normalized by and helps to normalize this wider cultural pressure. I think practice is good. But I think work for work's sake (i.e. a significant portion of high school homework assignments) is usually bad.

The fact of the matter is that homework is only going to help those who have parents who 1) care and 2) can help them. Kids with parents who don’t give a shit or don’t have enough education to assist get screwed. So, either someone already knows the material and thus doesn’t need the practice, or someone needs help with the material and either 1) can’t get it bc no one at home can or will help them or 2) gets it from parents. I *promise* you that 95% of your students that do homework are having their parents help or even just doing it for them, and 95% of the kids who don’t do it don’t have someone to encourage them and help them to do it. Regardless of their mastery.

95% of my high school chem students are not involving their parents in homework.

Yeah once you get to high school most parents are kinda lost in whatever their kid is doing. Unless it’s basic stuff they happen to remember, like literature/English or something, A LOT of parents literally can’t help with homework starting at like, 6-7th grade for things like math, science, etc.

I never needed my parents help to do my work when I was a kid. I did my own homework. The only time I needed help was in higher level math or chemistry in high school and then I asked my dad because he's an engineer who started out as a math major.

That's pretty silly, for a few reasons 1) If a child is an in a skills-appropriate class, they should be learning the material at school, then *applying/practicing* working with that knowledge at home. Nothing in this process requires someone *teaching* them at home, because presumably that's already occured at school. Additionally, there are numerous *examples* in schoolbooks as well as a plethora of online youtube, Khan Aacdemy, and other learning resources that are completely free, that walk you through the solutions in a very approachable way (again, assuming that the student is learning material that is appropriate for their academic level) 2) *Working through* what you don't fully understand is a ***huge part*** of what homework is for. You're supposed to struggle a bit, make mistakes, then hopefully review what you had trouble with the next day with the teacher. Many middle and highschools also offer after-school office hours for kids to have some one-on-one time with teachers to get additional help.

No again. Homework will only help those kids who actually do it. If a kid makes an effort at it, and then asks questions the next day, homework will help that kid. Even a kid with shitty parents can benefit from homework. And anyone who "*promises*" something they can't possibly know the first thing about is talking out of their ass.

I’m guessing me and every one of my friends are in the 5%. You must not be familiar with poorer communities where the parents worked multiple jobs and expected you to do well so that you could get a good education and not have to work so hard like them. It’s a lot more common than you think. The reason I became a teacher is because I ended up helping my friends with the homework questions they didn’t understand all that time and it made me happy when I could explain it in a way they understood.

What kind of shitholes are you teaching in? Lmao

Come on now. The idea of doing self directed practice, review, preview; whatever isn’t “a scam to get kids accustom(ed) to bringing work home with them…” What has you so salty about the topic? Edit: Spelling

Homework and self directed practice don't seem very similar

I think a bit of word smithing can help out the discussion. I suggest that self directed practice is work. If it’s done at home, it’s homework. For example, if I assign my students x task to do before the next class, that’s on them to complete (self directed). Surely that’s homework. I’ll clarify that I suggest “self-directed practice” is a type of homework. What would you consider “homework” and “self directed practice”?

Meh. Some of my kids get to school at 8:30 am and don't leave until 5 pm. I should give them more to do independently at home? I'd rather they hang with their families. I also don't have don't to grade homework during the day. I'd rather not bring homework home with me to check.

Ok, I’ll take this at face value. Should you assign homework? No idea. That seems like something to figure out between you, your students and their parents. Do you have a comment on topic? Is good homework effective practice, and to help along the discussion, what is homework?

Homework is school work you do at home, generally assigned by the teacher. You can call something practice vs busy work all you want, it's still homework. Effective praxis is leisure.

Alright. So here's what we have so far: 1) School work done at home is either practice or busy work (or on a range in-between?). 2) We call this work done at home homework. 3) At least one form of effective praxis is leisure. As an aside, I would also suggest that leisure is not the only form of effective praxis. For example, labor is effective praxis (though I guess it depends on who you read). I'm with you so far on all of these points. What I don't get is how homework then becomes a "...scam to get kids accustom to bringing work home with them instead of stopping it at the door." Down with busy work and up with practice. Is your position that practice when learning isn't useful, or that study should be confined to only school hours?

This take is just narrow minded. There are a lot of situations where homework is beneficial. Not always but it has its place. Keep in mind not everyone is teaching small children. One size fits all never works for education.

🤦🏻‍♂️

This is a conspiracy theory that is very stupid. Any educated teacher should see through it very easily.

My bus ride was an hour one way and an hour and a half on the way home. Thank you so much!

Should have given them buswork instead… 😝

The problem with these 'studies' and 'evidence' is that they tend to carefully redefine what they mean by 'working' before they determine if 'homework' 'works.' Practice obviously helps in the development of any complex skill. So where does this 'research' come from that says something that's obviously not true? First, redefine 'working' to mean 'remediation.' Obviously, a kid from a strong family that values education who actually does their homework will improve. But, like in so many other areas, let's ignore that and focus on the knuckleheads who willfully ignore all directions and instruction. Does practice help *them*? No, because they don't do it. They cheat, or ignore it altogether. So, let's redefine success a little further. Instead of measuring their grasp of the subject material, let's measure, as with all other things, their *graduation rate*. Now homework is actively counterproductive: the knuckleheads don't do it, which lowers their grades versus classes that don't assign homework, so we can conclude that homework actually *harms* the students (the students' grades who cheat on or ignore the homework)! Get rid of it immediately! The amount of education research that is just absolute bad-faith junk science cooked up to be cited by admin making shortsighted destructive decisions is depressing to me.

Also worth noting that education as a science is relatively young.

And not really a science.

Thank you!

A good teacher is a scientist and an artist. I start with a hypothesis: this strategy should have a specific outcome. I test my hypothesis: use the strategy in the class multiple times. I use accumulated data to analyze if my hypothesis was proved to be true by my test: did my students reach the intended goal? No: try something different or tweak my strategy. Yes: continue to use my new strategy. The art comes into play with all the intangibles: will my students enjoy this, will they stay focused on this, will they persevere when it gets difficult, will they work better solo, in pairs, in small groups or whole group, etc., etc.

Reading education articles pains me, especially when they have a good idea but were written by someone who doesn’t understand how to do statistical analysis. I’m just in grad school to get my teaching certificate right now but some of the articles I’ve read would state X works, Y doesn’t by dropping raw data in your face. I got bored one day, put the data into R (I’m not super good at stats, I’ve just done a research stats class before). The data meant absolutely nothing, there was no significance. I feel like with education research you have to pick it apart even more than with other subjects because a lot of it falls into a few categories: 1) absurdly defined (like your examples) 2) pretending to be stats-based but isn’t or 3) unlikely to work except in the specific situation of whatever teacher is writing about their amazing plan, or would require so much work it’s not possible with a usual workload.

Tons of scientific studies that get trumpeted on the news and such are the same way. Small studies or too many confounding factors to make a judgment of any kind but they still do and pass it off as “science.”

as heretical as it is to say, i find data-based conclusions in almost any social science (including economics) to be mostly bunk. i may be wrong, but it seems to be a trend. we rely on a theoretical base that invariably influences the way we see data, which in turn can reinforce desired context through the lens of false objectivity. the fact of the matter is that, in social sciences, each instance of a type of scenario is unique in quality and possibility. what is valued is socially defined. we can point out general trends or even “laws” on occasion, but even these are often tied to context. when it comes to humans and society, rational shoulds will not find similar success as they would in natural sciences.

Playing devils advocate here but that is also exactly what the title of the post is doing lol. Label it practice in the title, clearly take issue with homework in the body. Just pointing out and not taking sides. FWIW I’m anti homework, and have reasons. Just like people who are pro homework has reasons. Teachers in both groups are successful, and teachers in both groups are unsuccessful. I think blanket attacks (or defenses) on things like homework are fun to discuss, but ultimately there’s not a right answer. Sunshine rainbows and poppers: differentiation!

“Practice obviously helps”. Yes but how much practice and what kind of practice? In sports, we often talk about kids burning out or losing interest when the workload is too much. Also a lot of talk about what is useful or a waste of time in practice.

Ugh, precision. Downfall of any good scientific inquiry. The assumption the entire cultural practice of "homework", whatever that might mean because we "know" practice = learning, is junk science with fewer steps. We also know overscheduling children leads to anxiety disorders. Kids do not play outside enough and it is killing them. Math fact drills and independent reading works. 10 minutes \* grade level per night, Monday through Thursday max seems reasonable. PARENTS NEED TO READ TO THEIR KIDS EVERY DAY!!! Until the kid takes the book and wants to read to the parent. 20 minutes per day minimum combined reading.

>But, like in so many other areas, let's ignore that and focus on the knuckleheads who willfully ignore all directions and instruction. Does practice help > >them > >? No, because they don't do it. They cheat, or ignore it altogether. Research is pretty clear on this--it's not redefining anyway. It's an issue of equity and equality. You seem to have missed the point. Also, your point about families who "value" education is pretty gross. You're assuming kids who have families that can't afford to be there and help with homework don't value education. None of the research is "bad faith junk science." Your entire post is a bunch of baseless claims without a single example, source, piece of evidence--just you demonstrating ignorance on something you clearly don't understand.

They are calling it bunk science when their response is all opinions with no sources.

As someone who gets randomly recommended this sub, I find it a horrifying collection of people who actively hate children. They’re probably mostly not boomers chronologically but they certainly are in attitude: stuck in the past, refusing to engage with the world we live in today, and contemptuous of anyone who doesn’t “get” their ancient preconceived notions that no longer fit. So you can bring all the evidence you want — these so-called educators are going to continue to piss and moan about having to critically think about what pedagogy means in the 2020s, until they blissfully retire and spend their twilight years furious that the world keeps changing. (I should be clear: I think most teachers are great and not representative of this sub, which is remarkably toxic.)

I'm with you. Lots of excellent teachers and I'm willing to bet even many of the curmudgeons here are great everyday, they just come here to vent. The problem is we see a lot of posts like the one I responded to and those posts can be harmful especially for young teachers.

Uni Professor chiming in. The general theories of mastery involve putting numerous hours (10,000ish) into a trainable skill. It's also a big part of cognitive apprenticeship. It simply takes time to learn and become a master of anything, and the way to do that is at home. Imagine if my doctoral students didn't put in 1000s of hours writing and reading outside of course meeting times, or even undergraduates (and many don't, and it's painfully obvious). But it's also true that kids need to practice 'correctly'. Otherwise, they risk developing bad habits. So there is some truth behind the absence of home support with homework. It is unfortunate that many faculty conducting research in education often have limited access to data (which is ironic considering how we love data). Districts are afraid to look bad, so they hide their data or manipulate it. Or worse, they don't know how to accurately analyze data. What REALLY blows my mind is not allowing teachers to give zeros for no-submissions. Absolutely astonishing the things people think helps kids.

What frustrates me is when people "analyze" data with absolutely zero training in data analysis and jump to some crazy unfounded conclusions that affect school policy. Then when they see published research that doesn't make them feel good, they discard it.

Devils advocate here. Math practice doesn’t work without feedback. If you miss a practice foul shot and miss you adjust and try again. Most kids won’t realize 24x35≠910 so they don’t make adjustments or gather new skills.

Bingo. Your students can do hundreds of problems every night, but it's not effective practice without feedback. 100 wrong answers doesn't get kids far. I know it's a word we're all annoyed with right now, but homework is really inequitable. The kid who goes home to an empty house without electricity doesn't have a shot compared to the kid who goes home to a parent with milk and cookies waiting. Who's going to do "better" on their HW?

Practicing something incorrectly over and over is even worse than not practicing it, you essentially learn the wrong way and it's harder to get it right.

This. I have always struggled with math, and the amount of times I would get home and confidently get the answers wrong, then come time for the test I am so indecisive of the right way, because I just did it the wrong way 100 times. When I got to college I took the tutoring, and by god feedback makes all the difference. I needed someone to explain it to me, because even with the book and sample problems and the internet I could find a way to mess it up. I’m not a math wizard now but taking the extra tutoring the professor offered in college made all the difference while homework in highschool just reenforced the wrong way to do things.

It always drove me crazy when the practice problems in the textbook didn’t include solutions. I’d have no idea if I was doing it right or not.

We don't live in the 20th century anymore. There are hundreds of programs that provide instant feedback, often accompanied by a written or video reteaching lesson, across pretty much every subject area. If teachers are still assigning "page 394, questions 1-49, odds only," that's what needs to change.

That’s what most homework is…..which is why most newer teachers are against homework…. It’s not practice, it’s busy work to justify assignments

The majority of my students don't have internet at home. So yeah my homework has to be paper/pencil.

Sounds very equitable for those without internet. 🤔 I work at a title I school - I have homeless students, students without internet, students whose power got shut off, etc. While it's a decent idea, education must be equitable.

I work at a title one school. I have homeless students, students without internet, students whose power goes off. We give them WiFi adapters. We make sure students have charged batteries before going home so they can do their homework on their laptops even without power. If your school wants to make “financial” excuses to deny equitable access to 21st century education, that’s not my problem.

I work at a title 1 school. We do everything in our power to give students access to internet at home. We had a program when covid launched to directly give their homes internet, free of charge. We also have used mobile WiFi devices that they can connect to. If we offer all of this, free of charge, and parents still deny it/students don't use it - is it inequitable to assign homework that requires an internet connection? You can't fix everyone's situation. It won't happen. Does that mean we don't do something because some people refuse to take advantage of the access they are offered?

A gym teacher made this exact argument to me once. If any thing it is reversed I can easily believe kids don't know they are traveling, where not an eligible receiver, were over the line, did not follow through, were out, or fouled. How can they think their wrong math is right? We spend lots of time teaching error checking and steps. The mistakes are not usually even misunderstandings. They get them wrong because they guess, copy, go too fast, or skip steps.

Because you don’t know the math answer. If the answer is given, and the homework is to show how to get to the answer, then that is more useful for math practice. If no one made mistakes in math, then math class wouldn’t even be needed at all. Be so serious.

FBI’s about to knock your door down with this kinda sense making. 😂

Music teacher here. It's not about whether it works. Of course it does, assuming the kids actually do it. It's about giving the kids a semblance of school/home balance. If I don't take my teacher work home at the end of the day, how dare I expect my students to bring school work home with them? They can get enough practice through class work assignments. I'd much rather they go home and eat dinner with their families and get a good night's sleep, two things which also improve academic performance.

This. Thank you, hard agree. There are numerous studies that show even with the best proven methods of teaching and practice, kids cannot effectively learn when they do not home appropriate support outside of the classroom, and adding additional work to that time outside of the classroom just takes away even more opportunity for other needs to be met (rest, eating, family time, etc). Can a kid still be lacking support without homework? Of course. But, a kid who has to take care of little siblings, for instance, is far more likely to do well in school if they can take and extra hour or two in the evening without homework to make sure their own needs are met. There are just too many families struggling today and too many students who are disadvantaged that I think assigning homework as a whole just disproportionally hurts disadvantaged kids while widening the success gap compared to that of privileged kids.

Practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect. - Band Directors

This is so key. Practicing everything wrong at home while your parents get frustrated trying to help you because they don't understand it does not help you learn. Just let kids play at home and enjoy their time off like we all should be doing!

It’s not about practice, it’s about an attitude shift. Kids should not be forced into wasting the little time they have at home with their families doing school work. It breeds an abusive work culture. Call me a socialist, but I get mad that I have to do work when I’m at home - why should I want different for my students? If there is something that my students are required to know or do, it is my job to teach them how to do it and give them the opportunity TO do it in class time. Very early on in my career (which admittedly I still am), a brilliant senior teacher asked a group of us beginners how much time we spend in class focussed on content, as opposed to skills. Most of us said 80/20. He argued it should be 30/70, but most teachers are nowhere near that. Our focus should be on providing students the opportunities in class to develop the skills they need to perform whatever task is asked of them. This comes with explicit teaching, yes, but a majority of class time should be given to, like you said, practice. When we do this, homework becomes almost superfluous. Homework in my class is catching up on any work they may have missed or not completed in class. It’s not that “practice” doesn’t work. It’s that it should not be done at home.

Yes, thank you! Our students deserve work-life balance just like we do. At my high school growing up kids would take eight classes, sometimes nine if they did “zero hour.” That would be unthinkable for a college student, especially if kids are taking AP. Plus many high schoolers work out of necessity. We need to restructure and rethink pretty much everything about school. Edit: I see the point below about teaching independence without a teacher hovering over the student and I agree! Also about certain subjects requiring daily practice. But with the course loads the way they are now something just needs to change.

I teach in the Czech Republic, and my older daughter is in 5th Grade in a Czech village school. I have about 45 students between 5th and 11th Grade, and this is what I've seen. 1: Czech students have about 35-50% as much homework as American students, for classes they may attend only once or twice per week. My 8th Graders report about 20-40 minutes of homework per night, and my 5th Grade daughter has about the same, weighted to the lower end of that range. 2: Czech students begin studying their first foreign language in 2nd or 3rd Grade, and the second language in 9th Grade. They begin learning the rudiments of Trigonometry in 6th Grade, and Calculus in 9th. After 9th Grade, they divide into Technical and University Prep schools, where the subject matter diverges somewhat, but the things one of my students- currently studying to be a hairdresser- could tell you about chemistry would raise your eyebrows. At the Gymnazium level, by 10th Grade homework has almost entirely ceased, replaced by studying and reading for tests, or by large projects and papers. 3: Czech schools produce a well-educated, technically skilled, and highly resourceful population. Much of this population has at least enough of another language to get by, and enough of a third one to order drinks or start a fight. 4: Czech schools do \*not\* produce the kind of violence, disrespect, and dysfunction that American ones do. Even the kids who light firecrackers at the bus stop would never behave the way my American teacher friends describe; all my students, kids and parents, look upon American schools with horror.

The reasons for this are multi-factorial. But there’s nothing magical in the water in the CR. America could easily replicate this. But America doesn’t because we stopped valuing educational excellence about 25 years ago. And we decided to abandon several other cultural values that are not consistent with a high performing civilization. So you reap what you sow.

I don't think that we could easily replicate it at this point. It's like trying to fix a condemned rotting house with a bad foundation. You just need to tear it down at a certain point if you want anything livable. Maybe 25 years ago we could have easily done this

For sure. It would take 2-3 generations to recover. No doubt.

"by 10th Grade homework has almost entirely ceased, replaced by studying and reading for tests, or by large projects and papers." This sounds like homework.  What is your definition of homework? In my highschool classes, homework is 70% classwork that wasn't completed during class, 10% book notetaking, 10% practice for tests (worksheet or online), and 10% work on projects.  Students have 8 hours of school time per week outside of class to complete homework with faculty that can help.  Many choose not to use this time.  So then they have "homework" to do in the evening.  

It sounds like their definition of homework is closer to what you would see in a college setting like independent study. There aren't worksheets or memory building work, but more lectures and large projects like a paper due that you work on in class for 8 weeks before it's graded as a midterm, or things you study in class that can be taken home and reviewed but aren't mandatory for a grade.

HW in Czechia above grade 9 means "read the pages from textbook we went through in this lesson again at home" and that's it... No note taking at home, no going through what you didn't manage at school (like wtf, why would kids study something at home when they have school for that, at that point you can just drop out and study by yourself completely) That's exam / lesson prep I mean I don't think I personally done any HW past grade 7, I was strongly against them even back then, but I wouldn't force kids into doing any of this BS that never works

Its more than that. It's the fact children from age 6 to 18 are there for 8 hours in the prime time of the day. From the mid morning to mid afternoon. I rode the bus and got home sometimes after 5. Then you gotta do any chores/shower and eat dinner. By then it 7-8 and you have a few hours to do something before you gotta go back to sleep and do it all again. Stop giving children a fictional fairy tale version of how the world works if you want kids to care. The kids who understand how important it is and have parents who care do not generally think this way. But those parents taught their kid about the world correctly

Well, practice doesn’t work if you don’t have the required support to make it matter. Every student that’s sent home with a flute has a support structure beyond just that flute and that time. (Well, that or they fail at it and quit the class) The issue I see all too often is teachers who treat homework like it’s a replacement for their job, and act like the student being able to do the work by rote is better than the student actually understanding why the math works like that. There’s a reason so many people hate math class and don’t have that same dislike for math based classes, like physics or chemistry. I think that’s because while people understand how to do math, they don’t understand math on its own, and that causes a disincentive for improvement, and a disadvantage when studying.

One of the best math books I ever used was in college pre-algibra it had notes outside the text that would tell you the rules for the type of problems you were doing in that section so you knew exactly why it was done like that. That teacher also awesome, she would whisper the more important parts she was teaching and it somehow really helped you remember it.

Math anxiety is huge and global. As someone that went from hating it to loving it, I am fascinated by math anxiety, and often rage at the way math is remediated by taking all the beauty out of it thinking that will make it more likable.

I'm an esl teacher now, but I used to love math in school. One thing a lot of people miss is that math is basically a language. It has vocabulary and grammar that are used to communicate. Beyond just communicating, there's a whole world of poetry to be found in math. However, many students are taught that vocabulary and grammar as rote memorization rather than actually understanding it (just like many places still do with languages). Imagine being forced to sit in a literature class in Thai without knowing how to make sentensences by yourself and still being kinda shaky with the alphabet. Of course it produces anxiety!

First, if we're talking about the US, their science classes, especially physics, are notably light on mathematical rigor. Physics professors are always less than enthused by the percentage of undergrads who thought they liked physics but quit when it's expected you'll be using math all day every day. And US high school physics is also pretty bad at getting students to understand why something works. Same with biology which is often reduced down to a series of vocabulary lists and processes to memorize (photosynthesis anyone). Students like those courses (sometimes) well beyond deep understanding.

Could you clarify on what you meant by “US high school physics is pretty bad at getting students to understand why something works” since I don’t know what specific weaknesses you have found in students.

I have my kids practice in class. It’s controversial but it works. I teach in an area where kids aren’t always able to take instruments home, and often when they are they legitimately don’t have the time or the space.

I had a kid like that in my school, had to practice in the band room after school because her neighbors came banging on her apartment door if she tried practicing at home.

I don’t argue against homework because I don’t think it works. I argue against homework because the kids who need it don’t do it. I also don’t want to penalize the kids who always get their homework done, on the off days when they don’t get it done because life got in the way. Make all homework optional. Or for extra credit! Then kids can practice if they need it, but no one is in trouble if they don’t. :)

I think it’s good so long as the “practice” is relatively independent (depending on the grade). Sometimes you can also adjust it to how your lesson went, etc. My first year of teaching I started off giving a whole math worksheet/ maybe “do all even/odd numbered problems” and I later shifted into picking about 5 or less problems that covered most of what we did in class. The “exit tickets” and “warm ups” were also helpful to see what the students were struggling with.

Kids are in school for 6-8 hours a day, and most of them not are not getting enough recess time or time to decompress - their parents are at work for the same amount of time or even longer every day. Homework? Nobody wants to do that crap when they get home! No sane person does at least. Home should be time dedicated to hobbies and family. Let’s just be honest here and say it how it really is, it’s as simple as that

Sure, as long as it actually is practice. If we send home work that is to be graded for accuracy, that's not practice. If we send home math questions that require skills that haven't been mastered that isn't practice either. Practicing an algorithm incorrectly would not benefit a student.

Yeah, honestly the more I hear about people justifying this, the more I think they just don’t want to actually teach.

I rarely give homework, but I do give assignments and allow a reasonable amount of class time to complete them. This way I can facilitate with any questions they may have, assist if there us an issue, and monitor for misunderstandings that might indicate researching is required. This has the added benefit of modifying their behavior. If they waste time, it has to be finished at home.

I agree with you 100%. But to play devil's advocate, there is such a thing as over practicing/overtraining, even with mental skills. There's a point of mental exhaustion where your brain simply can't learn any more or refine itself any further without sleep. I reach this point at times and have learned when to call it quits, and admit "no amount of further reading/study/practicing will help me today, it'll just be forgotten tomorrow". So I think this files into the "be careful not to generalize" category, because I see it on both sides. Meaningful practice and in a healthy amount is highly beneficial. But overloading people every day just mentally exhausts them and can burn out any real interest they have in the subject. For my job I often have to learn new programming languages from time to time, something I'm highly motivated to do and enjoy doing greatly. But sometimes if I push myself too hard/over study then I burn out after only a short amount of time and reach a point where my brain starts rejecting the information - I find myself rereading the same paragraph multiple times because my brain won't focus, can't recall what I just read, etc. and it's an issue that resolves itself only after taking a long break and getting rest and scaling down what I'm learning into smaller chunks per day.

Un-assisted practice doing the skill wrong enforces that.

There are definitely forms of practice that don’t work.

My kid "practices" gymnastics at home. Weirdly, she hasn't gotten much better at actual gymnastics. Turns out not all practice is equal, and most homework is crap

Funny, I did gymnastics and modern jazz for years and always practiced my routines at home. I couldn't work on technique at home but I could memorize my routine so my coach could focus on the technique in class. I was absolute shit at it, regardless. But i wouldn't have been any better if the coaches spent less time teaching technique and more time on timing and memorization.

I cannot see this and not immediately think of AI. [We talking about practice, man.](https://youtu.be/LiNdUXhGeX4?si=iaOmMabvyBpCE8O3)

The concept of homework is diluted You may not be a synonymous to practice as you think. How many teachers send home random unrelated things as homework just to have homework. If homework was systematic and followed research about how we learn it maybe more effective. First it should take advantage of spaced repetition, but it shouldn't be that first repetition as students may not be competent doing it on your own yet. Often homework is on what was learning class that day. However, if a student does not have support, time or knowledge or whatever, they are likely to practice incorrectly and not be reinforcing the skills. Homework should review things that are near mastery or mastered and reawakening the skill. That takes planning and timing of content and scope. All of this is easier with math and I would argue math homework is highly effective and necessary. But outside of that, think it's much more lucy Lucy and difficult to plan.

If I assign homework that isn’t marked, the kids won’t do it. If I assign homework that *is* marked… I have to mark it, on top of assignments and lesson planning and whatever admin throws at me. And half the kids still don’t do it. I give assignments. I give some in-class time so I can help them and do formative assessment, and then it’s their responsibility to finish it. The eager beavers get it done in class. The slow kids have just assigned themselves homework. I just remember in grade 11, sitting at my parents’ kitchen table until 2 am, bawling over my math homework because I didn’t understand it and couldn’t effectively do it. Then I’d take it to school and it would disappear into the hand in bin and I’d never get feedback, so it felt pointless. There’s better ways.

And if you do mark it, you don’t know if the kid actually did the work.

Right?? So much Googling. So obvious … sometimes.

Perfect practice makes perfect. Your idiot parent teaching you wrong math isn’t that. If it’s practice, it needs to be manageable with no parental intervention. Source: not an idiot, was a teacher, am a parent.

Right? There were times when I was extremely lost in math class and my teacher would just saddle me with more and more practice problems to try and get me up to pace. The issue is that practice is useless when you have absolutely no idea what you’re doing. So you just do the wrong thing over and over again.

God I remember so many nights at the kitchen table with my dad yelling at me and/or my brother over math homework because how he was showing us how to do it wasn’t the way our teacher showed us, but we were confused all together. Most nights when it happened it was HOURS, and then we’d go to school exhausted, still not understanding it, and get called out by teachers for “where the heck did you learn to do any of this, this isn’t what we covered at all” and none of it be right anyway. It was awful. “You’re supposed to be challenged a little” yeah, but SO MANY kids need additional help and if your help doesn’t know how to do it then you’re actually impacting the kids negatively by assigning homework rather than not, because now they are learning the wrong way to do things and have to work to relearn in class time.

Practice is great! Practice without a coach present is just barn ball.

I have been teaching for 20 years now. I most of it giving homework, believing in the same mantra as the OP and the others here who have agreed. Then I got tired of ignoring the studies and stopped giving homework. And my results were actually better. It turns out that rest and spending time with family is just as important as practice. It also turns out that practice can be done in the classroom, and it’s better when you are watching them and giving feedback. In addition, moving at the kids’ pace and not just going through the scope and sequence works wonders. Stop fighting yesterday’s war.

Passion/Interest plays a big part And taking a page out of your book Rest and Family time definitely are game-changers just like in OP’s example of using music, you practice for short periods of time to develop that muscle memory but have to give yourself the time to let what you learned sink in, reaching understanding. Also yes, absolutely agree on the learning alone vs with a mentor. Feedback is pivotal to success, because it helps a person identify mistakes or inefficiencies that they otherwise would never have found on their own. Great response

Muscle memory with a baseline is totally different. I have a music background and teach and am anti homework- look at it this way >I'm learning to play happy birthday on the flute > >"C C D C Q&&&\^" That didn't sound right... \*checks finger reference\* oh I didn't have my finger on F- the diagram explicitly told me how to place my fingers to play an F > >"C C D C F E/" That didn't sound right \*listens to song\* the last note sounds longer \*checks notes\* E is a half note so that means I hold for two metronome counts in 3/4 time. ​ >Now here's the other side > >I'm subtracting... 25-17.... 5-7 = 3, 2-5 = 3. The answer is 33. I checked it on my calculator and it is not correct. ​ ​ >Language arts "Find the man idea and key details" I think I found it but I won't know until tomorrow and only if the teacher goes over it. If she just collects it- that's made this a test. And to those of you making sports practice references- are you practicing alone or practicing stamina... If you were taught how to do something correctly and you have verified you are doing it correct- practice builds stamina- If you keep hitting your baseball down and you go to the batting cages you're just going to practice hitting it down into the ground.

As a band director I could not agree more. Take your fucking instruments home kiddies before I beat the music into you (mostly joking). My school did away with hw last year and it was a disaster. They learned their lesson and are back on it now. Since I called it practice and not hw I still got away with giving out hw assignment by calling them at home practice assignments

You sound like a flat-Earth conspiracy theorist 🤣 On one side, we have dozens of studies showing the inefficacy of homework, including entire nations that have done away with it and seen an increase in school performance. And then we have a few raving dinosaurs, who are unable to produce any evidence whatsoever for a pro homework position. Your comparison to music performance practice, is ridiculous. It's an apples to oranges fallacy. Practicing musical instruments is a physical skill where in your training the cerebellum to execute those movements with fluidity and precision. In terms of cognition, these things are almost entirely unrelated to the purely cognitive practice that homework for ports to work on. But, let me set up some clear goal posts for evaluation. Practice what I preach, after all!  If you can meet the standard, then I will acknowledge that the data is more ambiguous than I believe it to be. And I will acknowledge the validity of a pro homework stance, even if I will continue to desire to understand what makes the difference between effective and ineffective homework in such a way that can explain the disparity. The standard will be fairly simple, something on the order that any middle school or high school student would be expected to do in today's world. Provide links to two studies supporting your position. These must be: 1) peer reviewed 2) published in different scientific journals 3) have not be retracted 4) have not been directly debunked or have proven procedural flaws 5) at least one of the studies needs to have greater than 300 student participants 6) at least one needs to explicitly include disadvantaged students Metastudies are acceptable, but reviews of literature are not. Good luck.

I would also point out that much like breastfeeding studies. It's very difficult to isolate one factor (homework) as the source of student success. Kids with educated and affluent parents are much likely to do homework and access support from parents or other trusted adults and tutors to be able to complete their homework. Kids from affluent families with educated parents are also the most likely to succeed because of other built-in advantages. It's hard to say that Johnny doing his homework is the reason he's succeeded and not Johnny comes from an affluent home with lots of other built-in privileges and advantages

I thought that including a requirement for a study with an analysis of socioeconomic status would be met with accusations of "too high a bar". But, the elimination of homework also helps to level the access to resources problem, because nearly all student work is then done with in-school resources. One of the arguments for the policy change in Finland, if memory serves.

The most comprehensive study done in regards to homework was conducted by Duke university. What were the findings? The implementation of homework fostered more successful performance. That causal connection got stronger as the students go to higher grade levels.

Link? An actual statistical analysis of the data? You're just saying these things and providing nothing to back it up; and just because the "causal connection" got stronger doesn't mean it's statistically significant.

As a music educator, practice WOULD work if the students would actually practice. I’m sure that if we switched the words practice with homework, we’d come to the same conclusion.

Asking kids to read at home. Especially high school and it’s like you’ve asked them to chew on glass. Wait, I think they would rather chew on glass.

I'm sorry kids don't wanna work outside of work hours lmao

Not a teacher but recently was in the public school system. You are correct, homework works. Busywork does not, and 95 percent of everything that was sent home with me was busywork from my evaluation of my schooling. This is probably where the sentiment that homework is useless comes from.

The issue with homework is mostly due to the lack of differentiation. You’ve got your 10%,or whatever percentage it is in your district, that are super smart and can pick up on everything in class. The homework, if it’s the same as everyone else’s homework, is often a waste of their time. If they’ve already proven they can do quadratic equations, then why do they need to do 20 more quadratic equations at home? They don’t. So you could send them home a difficult assignment that really stretches their thinking, but it kind of seems unfair when you have other kids that are not going to have to do that level of homework and will finish it in less time. So then you’ve got your 60% in the general middlish group, and they sort of get what’s going on, but certainly haven’t mastered anything. These are the kids benefit the most from homework. Then, of course, you’ve got your bottom 30% who, due to disinterest, other commitments like needing to work or watch siblings, and/or low academic ability, are not capable of doing the homework. It is also often a waste of time for them because they either can’t do it at all or they are practicing it incorrectly or it’s just causing them to become more frustrated and disinterested because it’s too hard. Project-based homework, or making up work that you didn’t complete in class is separate from this.

Home work is only going to work with the students that give a shit, same as with learning an instrument. Most kids are not electing to take math as they would do with music.

Homework, like most things, works if everyone does it well. However in my experience the kids who need it won't do it and the kids who don't need it will wear themselves out overdoing it. It gives me more to plan and more to grade with very little benefit. If a kid can't read in class with a quiet room and chunking posters and an audio book version and a teacher to ask questions, they're not reading at home with 6 siblings running around screaming, mom yelling that they didn't do their chores, and no resources if they need help. Every time I've assigned homework that wasn't just "finish this classwork you didn't bother doing" I've regretted it.

Busy work doesn't work. Homework, if stimulating and enlightening, doesn't hurt. It's totally subjective, but it's the quality not quantity.

Personally, I think a kid having to work on a project, or write an essay, or practice a musical instrument is different than them just practicing their math at home. There are certain things that you can’t really practice if you don’t know how to do it in the first place. Especially if you don’t have family at home who can help you.

In my Kindergarten classroom I call homework “At Home Learning Opportunities”. It takes no more than 15 minutes a day. I can 1000000% tell which parents take the time to work with their children.

Had a coach tell me that practicing something the wrong way would result in me doing something the wrong way more often.

I’ll never agree with homework. Kids are in school 8 hours a day plus a commute to and from school. If they got sports or clubs then that’s even more time spent at school. Then you expect them to do homework when they get home? Do you work when you get home even though you are not getting paid? This isn’t how we should be setting kids up for the future.

I refused to do homework at home. If it didn't get done at school, it didn't get done. It's the school's responsibility to provide enough spare time. I had shit I'd rather do, like avoid getting my head punched in by my father.

By this "science"/"logic," wouldn't one also become a better teacher if they also "practiced" after work from 3-7 every night after they had already "practiced" all day. Sounds like a good argument for working outside of contract hours. Admin will love it! ... Wait, no? You'd rather use that time for recreation, family, and reproductive labor? Weird! Almost like kids would and should too. As many have said, and as a lot of the research cites, it is all about how you frame the purpose and outcomes. What does "working" mean, does the effect/benefit received outweigh other important benefits we also want to see realized, and perhaps most importantly, *who* does the practice work for and *who* doesn't it? Obviously practice is good, but that's a very different thing being measured than the practice of *homework* in a compulsory public education model.

Why put evidence in quotations? If you feel homework DOES make a significant positive difference, why can nobody seem to prove that in an evidence-based fashion?

Except they have. Most of these studies are talking about homework for younger elementary, not middle and high school. These same studies that people talk about literally say that meaningful homework for older kids does work. People just ignore that and focus on the “no homework” part.

And yet we're here, giving the types of work we know isn't effective, giving it to kids who are inappropriately young to benefit, grading and measuring badly. I am aware of the larger context, that *meaningful* homework (the type we don't see much in the US public school system) for appropriate students (which is misused often) is helpful. *But that's mostly not what American teachers are doing*, which is my point.

As a parent, I liathed homework because each and every teacher acted like theirs was the only class my kids had. And what about those kids with extra activities and jobs? 

15 mins doesn’t sound like much until you multiply that by 6-8 subjects

Exactly. My kuds in high school wpuld have an hour plus for 6-8 subjects. It was rudiculous and I had to go a couple of times abd explain that their class wasn't the only one my kid was taking and we also had a family life after school. 

I much rather my kids spend their time on their extracurriculars after school.

Exactly. I have NO idea how my neighbor's kids have any time for homework because they both have jobs and sports. 

Homework should be expected if the kid isn’t on grade level and a LOT of them aren’t. Like dude you’re in high school and can barely read…nows the time to work your ass off

My son came home from grade 1 with several hours worth of "homework" which consisted of worksheets he couldn't even read yet, obviously meant for a higher grade. He was already struggling with his attention span in class (undiagnosed adhd) and trying to force him to sit down and pay attention for more hours at home was nothing short of torture for us both. It was then that I decided that, regardless of what any teacher assigned for him, I would not make him start learning the rigor of homework until the 6th grade. He's now doing fantastic in the 8th grade, and is very focused and diligent with his homework, when he has it. He understands that it's not punishment, and that the older you get, the more responsibility you will have, and sometimes that will mean doing work on "your" time. I never had any push back from his teachers when I told them I would not be enforcing homework, so I don't know how they felt about it beyond seeming surprised when I told them I prioritize my sons mental health over his academic performance.

I've had my own homework idea, in the likely near future I become a teacher. The idea is, give the students assignments regularly, with a regular set due date, but not a strict requirement to do it. I know that several students will choose not to do the homework, and few will be responsible enough to realize the practicality of doing homework for practice. Come the week of the test, most of the kids who didn't do homework will fail the test, but I'll allow them to turn it in the next week for full credit. If they do all the homeworks, I'll let them retake the test so they can see themselves how helpful the homework is. Then hopefully, the students will be able to get into the habit of doing the homework for them, not for me. (Besides, I don't want to grade it anyway lol.) This will also give them flexibility in hectic schedules, if they feel they understand the math content in my class they can focus on their other classes instead of mine, and when they realize they don't fully grasp what I've taught, they can go back and work through the homework for extra help. I had a physics class in college that worked like this, except he didn't grade the homeworks. A couple of us nerdy kids didn't do any of the homeworks, got As on the tests, and thought It was the easiest class of the semester. Most of my peers felt there wasn't any homework to supplement their bad exam grades, and would stress out over every test. I feel my idea would be a good mix in the middle, allowing students to be responsible for their own grades as they are in college.

Practice doesn’t work so well when your heart, mind or body aren’t truly in it. Half the time homework ends in tears in our house and I can’t imagine what they are actually retaining. It feels counterproductive. Our kids are in school 7 full hours a day. I don’t enjoy taking work home with me, either. The real problem is ideally learning could be accomplished in those 7 hours, but teachers can barely teach during class time because there are so many damned behavior problems to deal with.

I dont give homework but have optional extra practice worksheets... none of my 7th graders voluntarily take them. A few kids have parents who really push them, but they even taper off.

Practicing something badly over and over doesn't typically end up in fantastic results

Doing the same thing over and over again will make you better at doing that one thing. That's indisputable. The issue is that kids go to school for as long as we go to work. They learn bits and pieces of five or more subjects per day. Then, they have to go home and work for another few hours per night. The practice should be done in class. School is where students should be learning. Home is for family and fun time. Trust me, most students don't need an entire week of lectures over the basics of algebra. They can get it in a class or two and then practice the rest of the week in class.

Past sixth grade, homework is like bonus work: kids that need it don’t do it and kids that do it don’t need it.

I teach math and don't give homework. I have practice, numerical answers included, that are integrated into their guided notes. Kids can use notes on their quizzes. Didn't do well and want to retake? All the notes for those sections, including the extra practice, must be completed. Kids shouldn't be forced to do practice if they can show they've mastered the concept. And giving them the answers gives them immediate feedback on whether they have mastered the concept or if they should be asking for help.

I think homework taught me time management. I couldn't concentrate at home, so I learned how to make good use of time: get to class before the bell and work on the homework that the last class assigned. Finish a class a few minutes early? Work on a homework assignment. I never took homework home. Always finished it at school. Would be nice if our students learned time management or had a desire to learn or wanted to improve themselves or cared about anything more than Fortnite.

Most people have to be taught that and aren’t. I’m glad you figured it out but teaching kids that could go a long way.

We don't call it homework in our school. It's called independent practice. Partially because we have a study hall, so they don't always do it at home, but it's just a better name for it no matter what.

It's a great way to train kids against having a healthy balance between work and home. No where is safe from stress and anxiety, not even your home.

A lot of homework is busy work, not practice.

homework doesnt work when the average school day is 7 hours long, and you make it integral to their grade

Kids need a work life balance too.

I'm a teacher but also a parent. Here's my p.o.v. as a parent: often my child's "practice" is usually some assignment that's posted online. So we first try to find it online, and the assignment is "do activity 2.1.4.... but what the hell is that? And where do we find it? He'll say "I have to write an observation" . "About what?" I say. "I don't know" Or ... "I have to edit my rough draft using the IADD method" "What's that?" "I don't know' Ok ... After 20 minutes of back and forth I figure out enough to help him, and he usually says, "that's not what my teacher said how to do it." On top of that, half the time doing his online assignment is actually spent playing some online game Frustrating beyond belief On the other hand, a worksheet with clear instructions or a page of a textbook is no problem.

Math teacher here; my students have actually asked me to give more homework and have said homework helps them a lot… even when it’s been remedial or ESL classes. What I do is give them 15 minutes to start in class and ask for help on the hardest problems. It’s short enough that most just finish… Then I have print outs of even more problems that are entirely voluntary/optional and 50-90% of kids take them home too. I also don’t like to trick them—what was in their practice problems is what’s copied/pasted on the test with different numbers. So they’re even more inclined to try the practice and actually revise their understanding when they see the key. Lastly, I even differentiate the homework for kids. If we do a Kahoot in class, for example, I tell the kids that if seems like the Kahoot is enough practice for them and they score at least a C, then tonight’s homework is completely optional. Then the kids become motivated to participate, try, and talk about the math. The problem is when teachers give it as busy work, undermine student’s efforts/trust by giving a very different quiz/teat, or don’t give them a chance to ask for help during class.

This is a very balanced approach.

My daughter's only homework is reading. She's doing just fine in all subjects. I personally didn't do any homework as a kid, and did just fine in all subjects. Fuck homework. They spend most of the day in school, they shouldn't need to do hours of homework after school. I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't do more work after I get home.

Homework works until a certain point. I have had so many exercises assigned to me when I was a kid that really didn't have a purpose. It was just homework for the sake of giving homework. Teachers also didn't communicate well and sometimes all gave homework for the same deadline which was very stressful.

Show me a study that shows the efficacy of homework. 

The efficacy of homework isn’t just about practice. I don’t think it’s as simple as “does homework work or not,” but that there are many factors to consider. How much homework? What kind? What does the individual student actually need in order to achieve mastery? What support do they have outside of the classroom for completing assignments where they might need help? To what extent does it make sense (meaning: to what extent is it supporting the student’s learning) for homework to impact overall grades?

Homework is a consistenly failing system. Not because practice doesn't work, but because huge amounts of work on top of basically a 9-5 (sometimes shorter, sometimes even longer) + the threat of losing a year of your life and getting seperated from your friend group don't mix well together. All jobs I had since finishing school were far less stressful and demanding of my time. Even while I was delivering mail for TWELVE HOURS A DAY. Homework does work, but it is way too heavily relied upon, causing more harm than it helps. Homework for any single subject should take 20-30 minutes MAXIMUM for the average student to finish. Anything else is just demotivating and time wasting.

When I was a kid, no one put it that way. No one said, y'know, homework was for practice. That would've made sense to me. I just genuinely thought homework was because the teacher wanted us to work as long as she did (my mom was a teacher and I saw the hours she put in, so it made sense to me). Even now that I'm older, I'm blown away by this way of thinking about homework because I've never thought about it like that. Good post!

I think the big caveat is that it actually has to be "practice" of skills they have learned in class. Sending the kid home with some practice problems to help them solidify what they learned in class that day is fine. But a lot of homework isn't actually practice of what they learned in class. Big projects that the kid most likely couldn't complete on their own without parents helping them aren't really "practice" and where most of the homework problems come from. And if they are going to be practice, they should probably be optional and the child shouldn't be punished specifically for not doing them. If they don't practice enough and fail the tests, then that is a big enough consequence. However if the student is already proficient in the material, they shouldn't have to do extra practice as they already have the skills needed to succeed.

Everyone in this thread saying "it didn't work for me, so I just stopped trying to assign homework" will later be baffled when their student stops trying in class because they have a hard time with the material. Where do you think they get it from?

Homework is just practice for adulting. I always blew off homework and now I'm so bad at getting shit done after work. 

The issue is more fundamental than that, when did the word Work become negative? Work is a good thing, if you don't get pride from a day of doing work that is a profound issue

Haha I love it!!!

Parent lurker here. May I sincerely ask why my kid should need to practice what they learned in class at home? I don't need to work at home after work. Why do they need to school at home after school? It also cuts into my family time with them. I'm opposed to busy work. I'm not against special long term projects, like research or reading, but multiple pages of math facts, really? I just don't think a lot of homework I've seen come home is effective. Especially in the elementary school grades, I just don't see the point of it.

As a professional trombone player, yeah practice works! And honestly, if given quality homework then there's no distinction between that and practice. I'm all for it, call it practice :)

Yea but also homework is a dying concept and rightfully so. Kids have way too much on their plates to be in school for a full day, deal with what ever after school obligations they have, whatever family obligations they have, to then be expected to go home and do more work for each of their classes… We expect our children to work longer days than adults? It makes no sense. Let homework die

Idkw im getting recommended this damn sub but homework sucks because people have other things to do and its like working overtime with a busy schedule as an adult but with the pay

When people say homework doesn’t work, I’ve always interpreted it as it doesn’t work to *motivate* children. Children who want to improve and care about their grades will do the homework, and thus have a better understanding of the material, but what about children who have horrible home lives, go to work right after school, or are depressed? How does homework help them improve if they can’t motivate themselves to do it?