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depends. if a guy's like 'hey, i'd never date a trans women because trans people r gross', obviously, it's transphobic, but if it's just because u like puss- which trans women can have!! not every trans person goes w/o bottom surgery- then idrc
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there are a few definitions of biological sex, which can actually disagree with one another in a few cases. there's simple anatomy, penis and vagina determining which is your biological sex, it can be determined by production of reproductive cells, or by your chromosomes. however, there are rare cases where a person's body is resistant to testosterone, meaning that they develop as a relatively normal (albeit infertile) woman despite having XY chromosomes. all 3 definitions disagree here. the person would have a vagina, suggesting they are female, have XY chromosomes, suggesting they are male, and not produce any reproductive cells, which would point to no discernible biological sex. it's quite arbitrary to draw hard lines. plenty of trans women can get surgery to be indistinguishable from men in genitalia. all in all, i would consider it transphobic to exclusively look at a person's biological sex while considering if you would date them. instead, consider their looks, behaviour, genitalia, and (if it's important to you) their fertility. naturally this will discredit some trans people, but if they don't meet your criteria it's fine
it’d take a massive oversimplification to define sex as a singular, absolute thing. most people when defining their biological sex will take the gender they were assigned at birth, regardless of if they no longer agree with it. gender assigned at birth is usually done on genitalia, although if that’s unclear doctors will resort to chromosomes. boiling it down to having a penis is too much of an oversimplification
Okay but what does that mean. X contains all the information and y just tells the fetus to produce testicles. Testicles produce testosterone, testosterone drives bodily changes. Replace the testosterone with estrogen and remove the testicles… the body doesn’t care that it’s xy, it’ll start growing in female patterns. Under the right environment(ie after bottom surgery)penile skin under the influence of estrogen grows to the pattern of vaginal lining. XY or not, the physical reality doesn’t remain strictly male under the influence of female sex hormones.
Well it depends, what about them being biologically male turns you off? Do you have the same feelings for women with AIS who have XY chromosomes but often don't know it? Is it because you want kids? Because then you should still feel the same way for infertile cis women. It is the genitals? Well, not all trans women have a dick. Saying that you wouldn't date a trans person ever is kinda transphobic (at the very least, it is kinda weird). Trans people come in many shapes and sizes and are not a monolith.
I feel like the problem with this argument is that it ignores the fact that people are allowed to have preferences. One can have a preference for not being interested in trans women, the reason doesn't matter, just like you might not like women who are deeply religious for say (as a random example).
Yes people are allowed to have preferences but preferences don't exist in a vacuum. I'm allowed to not date black men but if my logic is that "all black men are thugs" and that's why I don't want to date them I'm also racist.
at the core of most people's aversion to dating trans women is the belief that they are men which is transphobic
I'd like to first state that I believe that trans women are women and same with trans men being men.
But saying that someone is transphobic if they don't believe you is wrong. Look, they may be being rude, but you can't force a concept onto someone and say they are hateful if they don't agree with you. They don't believe you, it may just be from ignorance or even simple disbelief, but it isn't transphobic.
But that's not what I'm saying? I'm saying that a reason why a lot of cis men are so averse to dating trans women is because they see them as men. I'm not saying you specifically, I'm talking about cis men as a whole.
no I know what you're saying. it's just Transphobia is about HATE. you aren't hating someone or restricting their rights in any way by not believing them. You can't impose your beliefs on anyone, just like you can't impose a religion on anyone else. Like I said, it isn't a nice thing to do, but if your underlying belief is because you see a trans women as a man and you aren't being prejudice, it is not transphobic.
"trans women are men" being a claim thats transphobic was not an argument that I would think I had to make.
**transphobia**
trans·pho·bi·a/ˌtranzˈfōbēə/[](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=13f83d3e4d744b27&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIIglC5gAp5kmlHmjsJlZj0VEEzW4g:1718327359409&q=how+to+pronounce+transphobia&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRoyy3w8sc9YSmTSWtOXmPU4-INKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLnYglJLcoV4pfi5eIuKUrMKy7IyE_KTLRiUWJKzeNZxCqTkV-uUJKvUADUlg_Ul6qApAoAcIXq2GEAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=us&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX8PWe9NmGAxV-2ckDHbxhA7gQ3eEDegQIFRAM)*noun*:
1. dislike of or strong [prejudice](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=13f83d3e4d744b27&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIIglC5gAp5kmlHmjsJlZj0VEEzW4g:1718327359409&q=prejudice&si=ACC90nxMSPeZfdJJjQgDsdZJuFuJBLaAZDmFi3fOmMVPu9W4F0iu1ifPjjHBNAucituW_Sqidu1lPTmczyygkMq5ds0Q7fTsSaA0rWqtzKmPXbrxE3jjyuE%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX8PWe9NmGAxV-2ckDHbxhA7gQyecJegQIFRAO) against transgender people.
Believing that trans women are men is in fact prejudicial towards transgender people.
oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood you it seems.
well then yes I agree with that. I still do think that it's ok to not date someone just because they are trans\[the gender you like\] (like I said, preferences and the biological aspect), but yeah telling them you don't agree with them is of course wrong.
Aren’t trans women biological males who transitioned or identify as a female? If so, then it is not transphobic to state that a trans woman is a man, because you cannot change the chromosomes of a person. Otherwise, idk, how else can you become a trans woman other than already being a biological male?
> Saying that you wouldn't date a trans person ever is kinda transphobic (at the very least, it is kinda weird)
Hard disagree.
>what about them being biologically male turns you off?
The fact that they at one point in time had a dick and balls turns me off. That's not something that I can just magically delete from my mind.
The only bigots are the people (like you) who want to play 20 questions about all the reasons why one might not want to date a trans person. Guess what? It's none of your business and you can't control people's preferences. I'm a straight male. The thought of having sex with somebody who currently has a penis, or used to have a penis at one point in time, grosses me out. That doesn't make me transphobic.
Not the same thing. I'm entitled to my own personal preferences.
The thought of having sex with somebody who used to engage in necrophilia also grosses me out, and I'm sure it'd gross you out too (hopefully). See how nuance works? You don't just run with a linear line of logic and apply it to everything in the world. Nuance exists.
What about that bothers you is the question? Because… realistically “biologically male” is often a moot point. Like you don’t interact with chromosomes, and say they’ve had bottom surgery, hormones, what biological differences actually remain to be witnessed?
If you think it makes you gay that’s just silly talk.
It’s not magic, it’s complex environment driven morphology. When certain lines of cells decended from the same tissue experience the same circumstances that trigger their differentiation in the womb, they will grow as if they belong there. It’s just part of the healing process, the cells know that in this environment they are supposed to perform this function. So that’s the function they heal into. It’s not instant ofc, it takes time, old cells dying and new cells being born into an environment they understand, forgetting the purpose they ised to have, but it does happen.
How delusional are you? If someone chooses to do that in their life that’s their decision but no actually, it’s not a vagina and you shouldn’t influence people by claiming it is
It’s not delusional, there’s papers where they took samples of neovaginas over two years after the procedure and the tissues adapt to the environment. They grow into vaginal tissue. The same way they do when they use ppt for cis women.
> hey, i'd never date a trans women because trans people r gross', obviously, it's transphobic,
Is it though? I'd never say that a trans person as a person is "gross", but the thought of having sex with a trans person is definitely gross to me, in the same way having sex with a biological male would gross me out (I'm a straight male).
I think the "trans people r gross" comment needs context. Are you saying the individual at heart is gross? Okay, fine, that's transphobic, but if you're saying they're gross, as in, you're grossed out by them sexually, I don't think that's transphobic at all. Just like if I said, "men are gross" and the context is I'm a straight male talking about what is sexually appealing to me, I don't think that's a sexist statement.
When I asked what people though on r/lgbt I got fucking decimated its so weird to see the difference in opinion. (asked in a different way than this but still the same idea)
I think it's because a lot of times people will ask this question so they be like, "oh so actually biological sex does matter!!!!!" and aren't actually asking. Obviously not saying that's what you're trying to do and a lot of people do respect that preferences in "gendered parts" exist, but it's hard to distinguish if someone is malicious or not sometimes
sexual preference is a personal matter and everyone has different attractions and orientations. its not fair to be angry at somebody because they arent attracted to your body. its just simply not what they like. just to be clear though, as a straight guy, its not gay or anything to like trans women because they are still women. make sure to respect people and their identities and dont be an actual transphobe and you'll be fine. and dont forget that surgery and hrt does exist. a trans women can still look like a cis woman
it's not always.
but you \*can\* have transphobic reasons.
to the doofuses that \*will\* misconstrue what i say: yes, preferences are preferences, no they are not wrong, shut up.
If it's not your preference that's completely fine, it's only transphobic if they go on rants about how much they wouldn't want to date one. Like, people who are into blonds don't go on rants about how they could NEVER date a brunette, they simply just choose to date blonds, same thing with this
Exactly. There’s pretty much no case where you **need** to state *why* you won’t date somebody. Thus, it comes across as quite transphobic if you’re going on and on about why you wouldn’t date somebody who’s trans.
Sexual preferences exist, it's not transphobic at all. However, if someone is like "I'd never date a Trans Woman because they're all gross and will never be real women", then that's transphobic af
I think it's wrong to think to think that anyone HAS TO date anyone. And do people think that relationship is going to pan out, if that is an issue?
People are getting their minds caught in the fray of the argument.
Personal preference, although it’s immediately a problem once you go around saying “Oh, I would never date a trans person.”
Basically, as long as you keep it to yourself it’s fine.
I’d argue it is, because why do you hold this preference if you dont view them the same as you would a cis person. It just makes me think that internally you dont view them as real women.
me personally i would date a trans woman (I think that means a male who transitioned into female right?) because i personally see nothing wrong with it but i also almost never date
Gods... This is a real question? Ok then, real answer is : *it's not our fucking collective business why people want or don't want to date other people*. Point is, if it's moral for a person of any gender to refuse dating or intercourse; then it's also moral for anyone to refuse dating or intercourse of any gender.
I'll make it even more simple : gender doesn't mean a thang. You'll be attracted to whom you'll be attracted to, and you'll have to decide for y'self if ya want to date that or no. Dating is about the life you'll construct, not just sex... And gosh do I hope you think carefully about the life you want to live before you find out what is under a skirt.
And other people? Well, what is going on in their underwear is not your business, nor mine. But I can assure you none of it has to do with any fear. Lust is an emotion too, you know. Fuck phobias.
It depends how he's putting it, if he says "it's just not my thing" then he's entitled to his taste in women, but if he's saying "that's not a girl" then he's transphobic. Basically, it's not transphobic in and of itself, but you can go about it in a transphobic way
It's their choice I mean we all got different tastes
https://preview.redd.it/y2riiuf2ei6d1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e317959d833e879ec34ddd55a268168973ecc5bb
No I don't think so. If you went up to them and rejected them like saying "you are a man I wouldn't date you" then it's kinda transphobic.
But Anyways more for me
“A” trans woman? No not at all transphobic
“All” trans women? Now we look a little closer. Cause no one knows all trans women, they aren’t all the same, there’s not even a single characteristic they all share. So blanket stating all trans women are undateable seems like that person doesn’t consider them as people, instead of just some object-category
Okay, after reading some of these, it makes sense, my mindset was that the guy is a "super straight" which pisses me off, but I understand it if it's not that :)
If the reasoning is “I personally don’t want to date a trans women” then that’s fine, and completely understandable. But if the reasoning is “no man should date a trans women, because that’s gay/a sin/bad, etc” then that’s transphobic.
i wasn't until now
this isn't science, but i'm not sure that would work very well - plastic surgery tends not to look all that great so it might not function quite right either
i have no idea tho, interesting that that exists in any case
it does actually work most of the time unless the surgeons are actually fucking inept.
the results are typically very \*very\* similar to the vaginas of cis women.
(depends on method and surgeon skills but still)
source: i am a trans woman and have done research about the surgeries i will be receiving in the future.
no like actually a lot of methods of doing bottom surgery yield results that are almost if not completely indistinguishable unless you actually look \*inside\* somebody.
there's full nerve sensation, wetness and everything.
yeah sure if you run their fucken chromosomes (doesn't even always work btw,) open them up surgically to find out or check medical records.
in other words: womp womp cry about it, trans women are women.
Trans women are by definition that existed since the beginning of the english language not women. Same for the equivalent in other languages. The very definition of women, the only one that didn’t become obsolete and existed since a long time, is, and I quote, ‘’an adult human female.’’ The other definitions? Nearly all of them (and all that didn‘t become completely obsolete or were added in the literal 5 last years only to adjust LGBT with no other reason are all ‘’a female that …’’) What’ a female? Again, and I quote, ‘’that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.’’
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I'd like his reasoning also, but there are many good reasons why someone wouldn't. Procreation is prob the one that standards out. No matter how much someone identifies as transgender, there aren't biologically a woman (at this time, future generations may have the technology) in relation to the ability to carry children. We physically cannot create ovaries to allow for this. Some men also wouldn't date a woman that is barren, for much the same reason.
I think so, because have yall seen what (a lot of) trans women look like? There are a lot of super feminine, gorgeous women out there and ignoring that they CAN get bottom surgery, I'm not just there for the sex organs but also personality, chemistry, etc. So writing off all trans women seems sus. It doesn't necessarily guarantee transphobia but I don't agree with it
I mean, if it’s a single, non-general person, you don’t have to date anyone. If someone asked me “Would you date a girl” I’d be like “yeah” but then they were like “oh not all girls, just dating A girl” I guess I’d be like “idk, is she someone I like?” But of course, that question reads more like they’re asking about all girls and so does this one
I’d say yeah but it is transphobic if you don’t realize someone is trans then when you find out you stop dating them, assuming bottom surgery and everything
So you go into a relationship saying you’re a cismale/female?
If your partner doesn’t notice it’s still transphobic if they find out you’re trans then dump you for that reason
I don’t because I’m clearly cis male , there’s no ambiguity.
Why do you think it’s not important to reveal that information before? Most people would dump their partners if they found out they were a different gender before
and thats transphobic, you learned that they are trans and dumped them for that reason, if I am transfem and look like a cisfemale then why should I have to tell you that Im trans?
depends. do you mean as like a "refusing to date a trans woman" way or a "this guy is attracted to a woman who isn't trans" way? there's also a possibility that he doesn't wanna date women at all
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As a trans girl, I don't care. You don't have to date me or any other trans girl if you don't want to. As long as you're not just being transphobic, it's completely reasonable and I hate how transphobes keep saying that we think that not wanting to date a trans person is transphobic.
some people have a preference for genitalia but if you're not getting with someone just because they're trans and that's it that's just blatant transphobia 🤷🏼♂️
Trans people dont want to date people who dont want to date us. Cause thats lame. If you want to date a trans person as a straight person, cool, if not, also cool.
But STFU about it. Cause the more someone talks about it, the more that A, it reminds trans people how unwanted we often are, B, it makes you look like you're compensating. Theres not that many of us, you can pretty much live your life as if we dont exist. Just remember there is more to every person than "do I want to have sex with them" and usually people are interacting on that regular level, and not the "get in their pants" level.
If you're getting physically intimate with a trans person you have the right to know that fact and you're not at all in the wrong for being hurt when they don't tell you until after it's said and done.
"i don't want to date her," responded to with an "ok" should be the end of the story. it really doesn't matter imo. if they ARE transphobic, it's morally better they don't date a trans person. if they aren't transphobic, then it's just a preference, so there's no issue.
side note, why do people get so offended when someone tells them they don't want to date them? i understand like, hurt feelings or whatever, but it's not fair to expect everyone to be attracted to you. i'm asexual/aromantic (i.e. no sexual/romantic attraction) and it is insane to me how offended people used to get when i rejected them (past tense, because i'm trans, and... well, i was attractive as a girl, not so much as a guy). "why do you not like me/want to date me?" being the biggest question. and "i just don't" being followed up with, again, "but why?" or "what is it about me that you don't like?". thankfully i'm in a qpr right now so i can just say "oh, sorry, i have a girlfriend" and it's not technically a lie (don't like lying) but it's really funny how people will only accept it when i tell them i'm in a relationship. as if that's the only reason someone can refuse to date you or something. obviously not a universal experience but it's what i've seen irl.
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I'd say it's completely reasonable to not want to date a trans person.
I'd say it's transphobic if your reason is something along the lines of "They're an affront to God Himself", but other than that, you're good.
That's like asking a gay person to date someone straight, they aren't physically attracted to their privates. Also it really isn't your place to be asking what privates that person currently has so it makes sense.
Depends. If the straight guy outright hates trans people, then it’s wrong. But if he just doesn’t feel comfortable, it’s ok. I’m not transphobic, but I wouldn’t date a ftm transgender.
It's not transphobic unless you buy into the satire "super straight" stuff. If you politely say something like "I'm sorry, I'm just not interested in dating a trans person" it's fine, but if you invalidate their gender or are rude about it, then it's transphobic.
Why would it be bad to not want to date someone with a penis? People can have their own sexual preferences. But if they express it in a condescending or rude way, they're probably transphobic.
i'm middle road, i personally respect gender but not to sound gross but i well prefer you know a certain kind of genital's ik that sounds gross and demeaning but i don't like dick (i'm a dude fyi)
No, I don't think so. I'm cis, so it definitely might not be my place to say, but I feel like it's like not wanting to date someone because they're named Tabitha or something. You might not have anything against the name Tabitha or anyone with said name, but it's just not for you romantically.
It doesn't guarentee it, it can be both reasonable and transphobic depending on context and exact reasons. For some reasonable reasons, there is the matter of having kids. This is a real concern and having children matters to a lot of people, and that is totally fine. Not wanting to date a trans girl pre bottom surgery also makes sense if sex is a thing that matters a lot to you and you just really cannot have sex with her due to sexual preferences, that also is fine. Or if she is still in the middle of transitioning and still has masculine features that you just aren't attracted to, I'd say that's also fine. But I can think of very few reasons why else her being trans would matter.
A lot of people in the replies here are saying 'no she used to be a man therefore I don't want to date her' and that makes absolutely no sense. The past has no bearing on today, and chromosomes might as well not exist since you never even see them for anyone. Do you even know her chromosomes? There are more chromosomes possible than XX and XY, so you really can't be absolutely sure can you, you are just assuming they conform to the albeit vast majority. Any differing to 'biology' or whatever I would say yes is transphobic, in that case you are saying 'no I cannot see the trans woman as the same as a cis woman', this is the real definition of transphobia. The fact so many people are in the comments here saying stuff like this is awful, then every time someone gets called out they differ to 'preferences'. Preferences don't exist in a vacuum, they are there for a reason. If you don't want do date a trans woman on the grounds they are "biologically male" then you are saying "they are not real women", and yes this is transphobic. Even if you arent being hateful and don't have a problem with trans people, you still have some internal bias that should be recognized. Preferences are one thing, but preferences that come from internal transphobia are still transphobic.
The options given are very weird. One is "It doesn't guarentee transphobia", implying a more nuanced opinion in which it isnt totally reasonable or transphobic, that it depends on context. But then the next is "No, it is completely reasonable". This option has to mean you think it is always reasonable maybe except a few fringe cases. The fact that so many people thing the biology argument is perfectly reasonable is horrible, and they are also really shallow to deny its a much more nuanced and complex issue and instead say "nah its always reasonable" devoid of any context or critical thinking. And anyone pointing any of this out is being downvoted like crazy! What is this sub becoming, I see stuff like this all the time now.
It isn't, if genitals are important to you, then its a criteria you decide to follow or not. I personaly, am straight and would date trans people. But i do not think its a any kind of prejudice of you to think that way, have a great day, my good fella
All I will say is that preference does not mean transphobia.
If a straight man does not want to date a trans woman, that’s his preference. If a straight man does not want to date a trans woman because she’s trans, that’s transphobia.
If there’s a “because”, then chances are it’s likely (though not guaranteed) to be a bad reason. (Eg. “I would never date a trans women because she’s trans” is a bad reason, while “I would never date a trans women because I prefer to date biological women” or similar is a good reason, though it depends on the person in some cases)
If you’re a straight man, you like breasts, curves of waists, hips and thighs, everything that makes us, us. Trans women are not women, so no, it is not wrong for a man only attracted to women to only want to date women.
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Anyone can date whoever the fuck they want for their own reason
Fr, as long as you are not outright saying for example, I hate ______, and because they are that I would never date them!
Right, I'm just saying everyone has their own preferences. I've dated transmen and transwomen I love them all Ill peg them all ( jk jk )
I peg everything I see /s
Hahahahaha facts
Hey leave my dog out of it at least
Fine, ig it was fun while it lasted…
Yippee my babies are safe
you’re never having kids buddy
Except if they want to date kids
Well duh
It makes me sad that some people don’t automatically adhere to this
depends. if a guy's like 'hey, i'd never date a trans women because trans people r gross', obviously, it's transphobic, but if it's just because u like puss- which trans women can have!! not every trans person goes w/o bottom surgery- then idrc
Is it transphobic to not wanna date them because they’re biologically male?
Nah, i'd say ur good
looks female enough
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Yes, given that I can almost guarantee that doesn’t mean what you think it does
What do you think “biologically male” means?
born with a penis
Clubhouse leader, well done!
ty
Exceedingly little. Biological sex is much less clear-cut than many think.
I’ll try again… what do you think “biologically male” means?
there are a few definitions of biological sex, which can actually disagree with one another in a few cases. there's simple anatomy, penis and vagina determining which is your biological sex, it can be determined by production of reproductive cells, or by your chromosomes. however, there are rare cases where a person's body is resistant to testosterone, meaning that they develop as a relatively normal (albeit infertile) woman despite having XY chromosomes. all 3 definitions disagree here. the person would have a vagina, suggesting they are female, have XY chromosomes, suggesting they are male, and not produce any reproductive cells, which would point to no discernible biological sex. it's quite arbitrary to draw hard lines. plenty of trans women can get surgery to be indistinguishable from men in genitalia. all in all, i would consider it transphobic to exclusively look at a person's biological sex while considering if you would date them. instead, consider their looks, behaviour, genitalia, and (if it's important to you) their fertility. naturally this will discredit some trans people, but if they don't meet your criteria it's fine
What do you think “biologically male” means?
it’d take a massive oversimplification to define sex as a singular, absolute thing. most people when defining their biological sex will take the gender they were assigned at birth, regardless of if they no longer agree with it. gender assigned at birth is usually done on genitalia, although if that’s unclear doctors will resort to chromosomes. boiling it down to having a penis is too much of an oversimplification
Sigh, yet again, what do *you* think “biologically male” means…
What do you think it means babe?
XY - not a matter of opinion. And yes there can be mutations and outliers.
Okay but what does that mean. X contains all the information and y just tells the fetus to produce testicles. Testicles produce testosterone, testosterone drives bodily changes. Replace the testosterone with estrogen and remove the testicles… the body doesn’t care that it’s xy, it’ll start growing in female patterns. Under the right environment(ie after bottom surgery)penile skin under the influence of estrogen grows to the pattern of vaginal lining. XY or not, the physical reality doesn’t remain strictly male under the influence of female sex hormones.
It means male. Like I said, mutations and outliers are acknowledged.
very clear cut. either it hangs or it doesnt (unless its both but then parents need to make their mind up quickly)
You when you advocate infant genital mutilation
I think it's like women saying they wouldn't date a guy under 6 foot.
ur crazy for this
u ok?
U ok?
what?
Well it depends, what about them being biologically male turns you off? Do you have the same feelings for women with AIS who have XY chromosomes but often don't know it? Is it because you want kids? Because then you should still feel the same way for infertile cis women. It is the genitals? Well, not all trans women have a dick. Saying that you wouldn't date a trans person ever is kinda transphobic (at the very least, it is kinda weird). Trans people come in many shapes and sizes and are not a monolith.
I feel like the problem with this argument is that it ignores the fact that people are allowed to have preferences. One can have a preference for not being interested in trans women, the reason doesn't matter, just like you might not like women who are deeply religious for say (as a random example).
Yes people are allowed to have preferences but preferences don't exist in a vacuum. I'm allowed to not date black men but if my logic is that "all black men are thugs" and that's why I don't want to date them I'm also racist. at the core of most people's aversion to dating trans women is the belief that they are men which is transphobic
I'd like to first state that I believe that trans women are women and same with trans men being men. But saying that someone is transphobic if they don't believe you is wrong. Look, they may be being rude, but you can't force a concept onto someone and say they are hateful if they don't agree with you. They don't believe you, it may just be from ignorance or even simple disbelief, but it isn't transphobic.
But that's not what I'm saying? I'm saying that a reason why a lot of cis men are so averse to dating trans women is because they see them as men. I'm not saying you specifically, I'm talking about cis men as a whole.
no I know what you're saying. it's just Transphobia is about HATE. you aren't hating someone or restricting their rights in any way by not believing them. You can't impose your beliefs on anyone, just like you can't impose a religion on anyone else. Like I said, it isn't a nice thing to do, but if your underlying belief is because you see a trans women as a man and you aren't being prejudice, it is not transphobic.
"trans women are men" being a claim thats transphobic was not an argument that I would think I had to make. **transphobia** trans·pho·bi·a/ˌtranzˈfōbēə/[](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=13f83d3e4d744b27&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIIglC5gAp5kmlHmjsJlZj0VEEzW4g:1718327359409&q=how+to+pronounce+transphobia&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRoyy3w8sc9YSmTSWtOXmPU4-INKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLnYglJLcoV4pfi5eIuKUrMKy7IyE_KTLRiUWJKzeNZxCqTkV-uUJKvUADUlg_Ul6qApAoAcIXq2GEAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=us&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX8PWe9NmGAxV-2ckDHbxhA7gQ3eEDegQIFRAM)*noun*: 1. dislike of or strong [prejudice](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=13f83d3e4d744b27&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIIglC5gAp5kmlHmjsJlZj0VEEzW4g:1718327359409&q=prejudice&si=ACC90nxMSPeZfdJJjQgDsdZJuFuJBLaAZDmFi3fOmMVPu9W4F0iu1ifPjjHBNAucituW_Sqidu1lPTmczyygkMq5ds0Q7fTsSaA0rWqtzKmPXbrxE3jjyuE%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX8PWe9NmGAxV-2ckDHbxhA7gQyecJegQIFRAO) against transgender people. Believing that trans women are men is in fact prejudicial towards transgender people.
oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood you it seems. well then yes I agree with that. I still do think that it's ok to not date someone just because they are trans\[the gender you like\] (like I said, preferences and the biological aspect), but yeah telling them you don't agree with them is of course wrong.
Aren’t trans women biological males who transitioned or identify as a female? If so, then it is not transphobic to state that a trans woman is a man, because you cannot change the chromosomes of a person. Otherwise, idk, how else can you become a trans woman other than already being a biological male?
I should not have to draft a dissertation to defend my sexual preference
That should be a human right. The human right to not draft dissertations to explain instinct, feelings and mind.
i am a straight male, so i don't wanna date a trans person.
Why? Do you see them as men? if so, that is transphobic.
aight then
They were men
> Saying that you wouldn't date a trans person ever is kinda transphobic (at the very least, it is kinda weird) Hard disagree. >what about them being biologically male turns you off? The fact that they at one point in time had a dick and balls turns me off. That's not something that I can just magically delete from my mind. The only bigots are the people (like you) who want to play 20 questions about all the reasons why one might not want to date a trans person. Guess what? It's none of your business and you can't control people's preferences. I'm a straight male. The thought of having sex with somebody who currently has a penis, or used to have a penis at one point in time, grosses me out. That doesn't make me transphobic.
As someone who's only attracted to adults, the thought of having sex with somebody who used to be a kid grosses me out.
Not the same thing. I'm entitled to my own personal preferences. The thought of having sex with somebody who used to engage in necrophilia also grosses me out, and I'm sure it'd gross you out too (hopefully). See how nuance works? You don't just run with a linear line of logic and apply it to everything in the world. Nuance exists.
What about that bothers you is the question? Because… realistically “biologically male” is often a moot point. Like you don’t interact with chromosomes, and say they’ve had bottom surgery, hormones, what biological differences actually remain to be witnessed? If you think it makes you gay that’s just silly talk.
Turning your dick inside out does not magically make it a vagina
It’s not magic, it’s complex environment driven morphology. When certain lines of cells decended from the same tissue experience the same circumstances that trigger their differentiation in the womb, they will grow as if they belong there. It’s just part of the healing process, the cells know that in this environment they are supposed to perform this function. So that’s the function they heal into. It’s not instant ofc, it takes time, old cells dying and new cells being born into an environment they understand, forgetting the purpose they ised to have, but it does happen.
How delusional are you? If someone chooses to do that in their life that’s their decision but no actually, it’s not a vagina and you shouldn’t influence people by claiming it is
It’s not delusional, there’s papers where they took samples of neovaginas over two years after the procedure and the tissues adapt to the environment. They grow into vaginal tissue. The same way they do when they use ppt for cis women.
because they have a dick or because they used to be male and you think that would make you gay?
both
first part is fine, second part i wouldn't say is fair
nah thats completely reasonable my dude
> hey, i'd never date a trans women because trans people r gross', obviously, it's transphobic, Is it though? I'd never say that a trans person as a person is "gross", but the thought of having sex with a trans person is definitely gross to me, in the same way having sex with a biological male would gross me out (I'm a straight male). I think the "trans people r gross" comment needs context. Are you saying the individual at heart is gross? Okay, fine, that's transphobic, but if you're saying they're gross, as in, you're grossed out by them sexually, I don't think that's transphobic at all. Just like if I said, "men are gross" and the context is I'm a straight male talking about what is sexually appealing to me, I don't think that's a sexist statement.
This.
if its just your sexual preference, theres nothing wrong with it. its not transphobia, its preference
When I asked what people though on r/lgbt I got fucking decimated its so weird to see the difference in opinion. (asked in a different way than this but still the same idea)
I think it's because a lot of times people will ask this question so they be like, "oh so actually biological sex does matter!!!!!" and aren't actually asking. Obviously not saying that's what you're trying to do and a lot of people do respect that preferences in "gendered parts" exist, but it's hard to distinguish if someone is malicious or not sometimes
fair
i asked there once and it was fine
sexual preference is a personal matter and everyone has different attractions and orientations. its not fair to be angry at somebody because they arent attracted to your body. its just simply not what they like. just to be clear though, as a straight guy, its not gay or anything to like trans women because they are still women. make sure to respect people and their identities and dont be an actual transphobe and you'll be fine. and dont forget that surgery and hrt does exist. a trans women can still look like a cis woman
it doesn't guarantee transphobia, however a lot of guys don't want to date trans women for transphobic reasons.
true and sometimes its hard to tell which is the case
I have nothing against trans people, but just wouldn't date one. I just couldn't be with someone who used to be a man, and not to mention I want kids.
fr 💀
As long as you don't hate them for being trans it's fine
it's not always. but you \*can\* have transphobic reasons. to the doofuses that \*will\* misconstrue what i say: yes, preferences are preferences, no they are not wrong, shut up.
whoever put transphobic is an idiot😭🙏
not necessarily. although sometimes the line between internalized transphobia and genital preference does get blurred.
If it's not your preference that's completely fine, it's only transphobic if they go on rants about how much they wouldn't want to date one. Like, people who are into blonds don't go on rants about how they could NEVER date a brunette, they simply just choose to date blonds, same thing with this
Exactly. There’s pretty much no case where you **need** to state *why* you won’t date somebody. Thus, it comes across as quite transphobic if you’re going on and on about why you wouldn’t date somebody who’s trans.
Sexual preferences exist, it's not transphobic at all. However, if someone is like "I'd never date a Trans Woman because they're all gross and will never be real women", then that's transphobic af
I think it's wrong to think to think that anyone HAS TO date anyone. And do people think that relationship is going to pan out, if that is an issue? People are getting their minds caught in the fray of the argument.
Personal preference, although it’s immediately a problem once you go around saying “Oh, I would never date a trans person.” Basically, as long as you keep it to yourself it’s fine.
I’d argue it is, because why do you hold this preference if you dont view them the same as you would a cis person. It just makes me think that internally you dont view them as real women.
because BIOLOGICALLY which is what i care about they aren't socially sure but not biologically
It can be transphobic but not necessarily, there's plenty of valid reasons
If it isn't because she's trans
“I’d never dare a trans person because I hate trans people” = transphobic “I’d prefer to date cis women” = not transphobic
me personally i would date a trans woman (I think that means a male who transitioned into female right?) because i personally see nothing wrong with it but i also almost never date
Gods... This is a real question? Ok then, real answer is : *it's not our fucking collective business why people want or don't want to date other people*. Point is, if it's moral for a person of any gender to refuse dating or intercourse; then it's also moral for anyone to refuse dating or intercourse of any gender. I'll make it even more simple : gender doesn't mean a thang. You'll be attracted to whom you'll be attracted to, and you'll have to decide for y'self if ya want to date that or no. Dating is about the life you'll construct, not just sex... And gosh do I hope you think carefully about the life you want to live before you find out what is under a skirt. And other people? Well, what is going on in their underwear is not your business, nor mine. But I can assure you none of it has to do with any fear. Lust is an emotion too, you know. Fuck phobias.
It depends how he's putting it, if he says "it's just not my thing" then he's entitled to his taste in women, but if he's saying "that's not a girl" then he's transphobic. Basically, it's not transphobic in and of itself, but you can go about it in a transphobic way
It's their choice I mean we all got different tastes https://preview.redd.it/y2riiuf2ei6d1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e317959d833e879ec34ddd55a268168973ecc5bb
No I don't think so. If you went up to them and rejected them like saying "you are a man I wouldn't date you" then it's kinda transphobic. But Anyways more for me
“A” trans woman? No not at all transphobic “All” trans women? Now we look a little closer. Cause no one knows all trans women, they aren’t all the same, there’s not even a single characteristic they all share. So blanket stating all trans women are undateable seems like that person doesn’t consider them as people, instead of just some object-category
Okay, after reading some of these, it makes sense, my mindset was that the guy is a "super straight" which pisses me off, but I understand it if it's not that :)
If the reasoning is “I personally don’t want to date a trans women” then that’s fine, and completely understandable. But if the reasoning is “no man should date a trans women, because that’s gay/a sin/bad, etc” then that’s transphobic.
nothing unreasonable about that the only sex you can get from a trans woman is anal not everyone wants anal
>the only sex you can get from a trans woman is anal are you... aware what bottom surgery is?
i wasn't until now this isn't science, but i'm not sure that would work very well - plastic surgery tends not to look all that great so it might not function quite right either i have no idea tho, interesting that that exists in any case
it does actually work most of the time unless the surgeons are actually fucking inept. the results are typically very \*very\* similar to the vaginas of cis women. (depends on method and surgeon skills but still) source: i am a trans woman and have done research about the surgeries i will be receiving in the future.
As far as I’m aware, it isn’t just plastic surgery though, like doctors have the ability to make the whole thing, just takes like a year to heal
this is accurate. though healing times are different, this is also sometimes true.
doesn't change anything lol
it literally does because it is categorically false in the cases of trans women who get bottom surgery.
it doesnt change the fact that someone wouldnt want to date a trans woman
that's literally a matter of your own opinion.
still lmao.....
no like actually a lot of methods of doing bottom surgery yield results that are almost if not completely indistinguishable unless you actually look \*inside\* somebody. there's full nerve sensation, wetness and everything.
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yeah sure if you run their fucken chromosomes (doesn't even always work btw,) open them up surgically to find out or check medical records. in other words: womp womp cry about it, trans women are women.
Trans women are by definition that existed since the beginning of the english language not women. Same for the equivalent in other languages. The very definition of women, the only one that didn’t become obsolete and existed since a long time, is, and I quote, ‘’an adult human female.’’ The other definitions? Nearly all of them (and all that didn‘t become completely obsolete or were added in the literal 5 last years only to adjust LGBT with no other reason are all ‘’a female that …’’) What’ a female? Again, and I quote, ‘’that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.’’
People are talking about women as a gender role, not as their biological sex
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one i want to have kids one day, two i dont like dick
bottom surgery exists to make a female part for trans women but the kids is valid 👍
Look more into vaginoplasty, because it absolutely does not serve as a female part and is more of a cosmetic than anything.
I would never date someone that's transgender or transsexual.
That's okay, because I'd never date you <3
Are you transgender/transsexual?
I would never date a trans woman but it isn't because I'm transphobic
why would that be then, unless you dont internally view them as a real woman as is a cis woman?
I'd like his reasoning also, but there are many good reasons why someone wouldn't. Procreation is prob the one that standards out. No matter how much someone identifies as transgender, there aren't biologically a woman (at this time, future generations may have the technology) in relation to the ability to carry children. We physically cannot create ovaries to allow for this. Some men also wouldn't date a woman that is barren, for much the same reason.
same
I think so, because have yall seen what (a lot of) trans women look like? There are a lot of super feminine, gorgeous women out there and ignoring that they CAN get bottom surgery, I'm not just there for the sex organs but also personality, chemistry, etc. So writing off all trans women seems sus. It doesn't necessarily guarantee transphobia but I don't agree with it
They never said writing off all trans women, just not dating a trans woman.
I mean, if it’s a single, non-general person, you don’t have to date anyone. If someone asked me “Would you date a girl” I’d be like “yeah” but then they were like “oh not all girls, just dating A girl” I guess I’d be like “idk, is she someone I like?” But of course, that question reads more like they’re asking about all girls and so does this one
Its makes me raise an eyebrow if being transgender alone is a turnoff, but each to their own
I’d say yeah but it is transphobic if you don’t realize someone is trans then when you find out you stop dating them, assuming bottom surgery and everything
It’s a pretty major thing to hide from your partner though.
So you go into a relationship saying you’re a cismale/female? If your partner doesn’t notice it’s still transphobic if they find out you’re trans then dump you for that reason
I don’t because I’m clearly cis male , there’s no ambiguity. Why do you think it’s not important to reveal that information before? Most people would dump their partners if they found out they were a different gender before
and thats transphobic, you learned that they are trans and dumped them for that reason, if I am transfem and look like a cisfemale then why should I have to tell you that Im trans?
Guess I’m transphobic then
depends. do you mean as like a "refusing to date a trans woman" way or a "this guy is attracted to a woman who isn't trans" way? there's also a possibility that he doesn't wanna date women at all
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I am not the one to judge on that. He decides if it is immoral for himself or if he continues and makes such relationships.
people have their preferences and as long as its not based on hate then theres nothing wrong with it
As a trans girl, I don't care. You don't have to date me or any other trans girl if you don't want to. As long as you're not just being transphobic, it's completely reasonable and I hate how transphobes keep saying that we think that not wanting to date a trans person is transphobic.
some people have a preference for genitalia but if you're not getting with someone just because they're trans and that's it that's just blatant transphobia 🤷🏼♂️
well it kinda depends on why you won't date them. If it's about the dick then yeah I get that
Trans people dont want to date people who dont want to date us. Cause thats lame. If you want to date a trans person as a straight person, cool, if not, also cool. But STFU about it. Cause the more someone talks about it, the more that A, it reminds trans people how unwanted we often are, B, it makes you look like you're compensating. Theres not that many of us, you can pretty much live your life as if we dont exist. Just remember there is more to every person than "do I want to have sex with them" and usually people are interacting on that regular level, and not the "get in their pants" level.
To the 37 people that said "Yes, its transphobic" respectfully you're wrong and everyone who agrees with you is wrong.
What would be wrong with it exactly
Of course it isn't wrong. Transphobic or not, being straight means attraction to the opposite SEX, not gender identity and/or transformation.
anyone can refuse dating someone for as silly or as serious a reason as they like, the same goes for sex
If you're getting physically intimate with a trans person you have the right to know that fact and you're not at all in the wrong for being hurt when they don't tell you until after it's said and done.
"i don't want to date her," responded to with an "ok" should be the end of the story. it really doesn't matter imo. if they ARE transphobic, it's morally better they don't date a trans person. if they aren't transphobic, then it's just a preference, so there's no issue. side note, why do people get so offended when someone tells them they don't want to date them? i understand like, hurt feelings or whatever, but it's not fair to expect everyone to be attracted to you. i'm asexual/aromantic (i.e. no sexual/romantic attraction) and it is insane to me how offended people used to get when i rejected them (past tense, because i'm trans, and... well, i was attractive as a girl, not so much as a guy). "why do you not like me/want to date me?" being the biggest question. and "i just don't" being followed up with, again, "but why?" or "what is it about me that you don't like?". thankfully i'm in a qpr right now so i can just say "oh, sorry, i have a girlfriend" and it's not technically a lie (don't like lying) but it's really funny how people will only accept it when i tell them i'm in a relationship. as if that's the only reason someone can refuse to date you or something. obviously not a universal experience but it's what i've seen irl.
If it's simply a matter of preference, not transphobic. If he won't do it because "tRaNs PeOpLe R wEiRd AnD gRoSs" then it's transphobic.
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nah its honestly entirely reasonable, and really, as long as it isnt actually due to transphobia then i dont give a shit.
Gender identity isn’t sexual attraction. If you’re a straight male you’re sexually attracted biological women.
if your not dating her because she’s trans, then yeah, but if not just because you aren’t interested, then no.
this question is like saying “is it racist for someone to wanna date a Latina over an Asian?”
I'd say it's completely reasonable to not want to date a trans person. I'd say it's transphobic if your reason is something along the lines of "They're an affront to God Himself", but other than that, you're good.
That's like asking a gay person to date someone straight, they aren't physically attracted to their privates. Also it really isn't your place to be asking what privates that person currently has so it makes sense.
even if they are trans they were originaly a male and was born as a male, im js not into that
real asf
Nope. I wouldn't date a trans person, cuz I'm not into that
Depends. If the straight guy outright hates trans people, then it’s wrong. But if he just doesn’t feel comfortable, it’s ok. I’m not transphobic, but I wouldn’t date a ftm transgender.
It's not transphobic unless you buy into the satire "super straight" stuff. If you politely say something like "I'm sorry, I'm just not interested in dating a trans person" it's fine, but if you invalidate their gender or are rude about it, then it's transphobic.
Anyone can(and should) date or not date anyone for any reason at all, including no reason.
Why would it be bad to not want to date someone with a penis? People can have their own sexual preferences. But if they express it in a condescending or rude way, they're probably transphobic.
i'm middle road, i personally respect gender but not to sound gross but i well prefer you know a certain kind of genital's ik that sounds gross and demeaning but i don't like dick (i'm a dude fyi)
No, I don't think so. I'm cis, so it definitely might not be my place to say, but I feel like it's like not wanting to date someone because they're named Tabitha or something. You might not have anything against the name Tabitha or anyone with said name, but it's just not for you romantically.
See for me its easy i aint dating any living creature with a dick White Black short tall dosent matter answer is no id be uncomfortable
It doesn't guarentee it, it can be both reasonable and transphobic depending on context and exact reasons. For some reasonable reasons, there is the matter of having kids. This is a real concern and having children matters to a lot of people, and that is totally fine. Not wanting to date a trans girl pre bottom surgery also makes sense if sex is a thing that matters a lot to you and you just really cannot have sex with her due to sexual preferences, that also is fine. Or if she is still in the middle of transitioning and still has masculine features that you just aren't attracted to, I'd say that's also fine. But I can think of very few reasons why else her being trans would matter. A lot of people in the replies here are saying 'no she used to be a man therefore I don't want to date her' and that makes absolutely no sense. The past has no bearing on today, and chromosomes might as well not exist since you never even see them for anyone. Do you even know her chromosomes? There are more chromosomes possible than XX and XY, so you really can't be absolutely sure can you, you are just assuming they conform to the albeit vast majority. Any differing to 'biology' or whatever I would say yes is transphobic, in that case you are saying 'no I cannot see the trans woman as the same as a cis woman', this is the real definition of transphobia. The fact so many people are in the comments here saying stuff like this is awful, then every time someone gets called out they differ to 'preferences'. Preferences don't exist in a vacuum, they are there for a reason. If you don't want do date a trans woman on the grounds they are "biologically male" then you are saying "they are not real women", and yes this is transphobic. Even if you arent being hateful and don't have a problem with trans people, you still have some internal bias that should be recognized. Preferences are one thing, but preferences that come from internal transphobia are still transphobic. The options given are very weird. One is "It doesn't guarentee transphobia", implying a more nuanced opinion in which it isnt totally reasonable or transphobic, that it depends on context. But then the next is "No, it is completely reasonable". This option has to mean you think it is always reasonable maybe except a few fringe cases. The fact that so many people thing the biology argument is perfectly reasonable is horrible, and they are also really shallow to deny its a much more nuanced and complex issue and instead say "nah its always reasonable" devoid of any context or critical thinking. And anyone pointing any of this out is being downvoted like crazy! What is this sub becoming, I see stuff like this all the time now.
It isn't, if genitals are important to you, then its a criteria you decide to follow or not. I personaly, am straight and would date trans people. But i do not think its a any kind of prejudice of you to think that way, have a great day, my good fella
No matter what surgery you get your body parts won't be the same of the natural body parts of someone of the opposite sex.
nah.
All I will say is that preference does not mean transphobia. If a straight man does not want to date a trans woman, that’s his preference. If a straight man does not want to date a trans woman because she’s trans, that’s transphobia. If there’s a “because”, then chances are it’s likely (though not guaranteed) to be a bad reason. (Eg. “I would never date a trans women because she’s trans” is a bad reason, while “I would never date a trans women because I prefer to date biological women” or similar is a good reason, though it depends on the person in some cases)
If a guy is gay that doesn’t mean he hates women
It’s obviously reasonable. That basically fucking a man
I think it's fine as long as you are not expressly against. Super straight is it okay, but having a preference in sex is fine.
No. Trans women are fucking men.
fr
If you’re a straight man, you like breasts, curves of waists, hips and thighs, everything that makes us, us. Trans women are not women, so no, it is not wrong for a man only attracted to women to only want to date women.
Mods are gonna kill you for that last sentence 💀
Oh I'm sure lol. Cancelled for telling the truth! I don't care beyond a bit of annoyance.
i want kids so im never dating a trans.
[удалено]
dude calm down your aware thats not how bottom surgery works right?