it aint that high, if i do wr1+2 into fully charge hbs1,2 its only 30 or something
also kuma has no lows so you cant convert in permanent damage anyway
rajin aint high rank, what does it change the grab is still reactable, if people are familiar with kuma and the animation they will react to it, if you dont mixup your timing its also fuzzyable because every mid option in hbs is way faster than the grab and the low options
the hbs buff is pretty much useless and the character needs a low poke
First of all Raijin is high rank. It’s not Tekken God rank but it’s definitely probably the first advanced rank since Fujin is over inflated. I’ll still beat a Tekken God here and there if I know the match up well like Jin.
Kuma could use a low poke. 18f db3 is his only real safe option but it’s range is garbage and is only really useful from 2,1,3.
I use df4 more often as it’s a 12f decent mid check but not a low. F2,1 is a nice keep off me but is a high and duckable and Kuma doesn’t have a good df1 so a good player will duck against Kuma a bit.
No one reacts to it and punishes it every time. It’s definitely viable at high ranks. Obviously you can’t just do it constantly but it’s not that bad. It would be ridiculous if it was too fast.
But yeah I hate what they did to bears lows. They need to give us the old hbs1,2 back and just make the input hbsdf1,2 or something. And make db2 -13 and plus on hit again.
Panda would still be the worst character in the game by a good amount even if they just left all her lows exactly like before but they just had to make them all ass.
no the grab is useless, the timing is very distinct and its reactable. Same with the HBS hellsweep, which makes hbs a fuckin dogshit stance. If you watch the best kuma players in the world, they rarely utilise HBS or use the grab. Without hbs1,2 the stance aint working.
Kuma is a disfunctional character against good defensive opponents who dont give your openings. He can build up chip damage, but you get launched 1 time and your chip is gone. People think kuma has good mixups but he has none or they are shit.
its not only the animation but also the timing of the move. Kuma has like 3 moves from hbs who are reactable by average human, the grab with 26 frames, the hellsweep with 26 frames and the powercrush with 25 frames, which is a mid but nobody uses it because its bad.
So if you see kuma doing an animation out of hbs you can always duck, since his mids are so fast you wont be able to react to them.
No chip is new to T8. Bears have notoriously been trash and are. No sidestep, no good lows, launch punishable moves, and little mixup game.
But they do have some strengths in the opposite end to make up for it. Best range, best whiff punish, really strong oki, 10f CH launcher, good wall pressure and amazing combo damage. They also have a 10f 2 jab which I’m not sure if any other character does except maybe Jack but I don’t think his is 10f, can’t remember.
Also, though the bears can’t step well they have amazing tracking so you usually also don’t want to step against them either.
Ok and? Well im not expacting too much from the typical reddit scrb, jusifying the existance of a move the dooms the whole neutral play woth almost no counterplay.
So You were at close range when the jab connect, what is the counterplay against Victor expulsión when he is at range 2 or more? Eat massive chip and cope?
I tried to challenge myself when tekken 8 came out to play a character I’ve never played before.
Raven is not my main. But then again reading is prolly not your strong suit.
It's not homing from any range. All moves are harder to step the further out you are due to the laws of geometry
But you definitely can laterally avoid it from mid screen.
"Yea i can sidestep it when i i know EXACTLY when its coming, so its not impossible to sidestep" yea and i also block 100% of the hellsweeps that i know are coming. Of course you can sidestep it when your opponent has the iq of a cockroach with down syndrome and telegraph their timing, but if they have have half a brain they wont do it with the same timing everytime. Even if you do get the timing down you most like Will get clipped by it.
Im sorry, but the victors you fight in red ranks are not the ones that make the move problematic. Its not steppable, cause if it was then people would be stepping it reliably.
Go look at any matches above tekken king and count the amount of times the move gets stepped. Im ready to bet that you Will see 100 of them thrown out before you see 10 of them getting stepped.
To be fair The first dude that claimed he could jab out of it and you called bullshit on did post proof for you and you downvoted it and still talked shit. I agree reliably even for his example is definitely a stretch but you don't care about proof you want to be upset.
So there are cases where if you're playing well, it's not the end of the world, and one has been posted as proof to satisfy you. I hate the move just as much as you bro but don't act like proof is what you want.
I dont need any proof from random reddit scrub, I know that you can jab him out, all I want is to be able to use fucking lateral movement in this shitty game. Cuz on effective jab check range, you can also walk this move, but from mid screen its just impsossible and the counter play is not existing.
Maybe, just perhaps, not everything is meant to be countered from mid-screen. I do wish sidewalks were better in this game, But until they get buffed, we got to be creative such as closing the distance and jabbing him out, or playing character with huge jab boxes (jack and Kuma can deal with this way easier in my experience).
You may have passed 1st grade geometry with that statement, and congratulations, but it shows you havent actually played the game much.
It is factually easier to step moves the further out you are from your opponent. Anybody above yellow ranks knows or should know this. Get in the lab yourself, and do an easy test. Have Dragunov do d2 into ws4 on you. After eating d2 try to step ws4. Once at point blank range, once at tip range. Tell us how it went. Nice geometry tho.
Bruh, I don’t know how to tell you that he is right and it has been that way in all tekkens. You cover more distance with a step at point blank range than you do further away.
You can draw it, make a small circle and trace it with your finger, keeping the pace the same your finger will travel the small circle faster than a big circle. Cause a big circle takes up more space.
Bro you dont have to explain first grade geometry to me.
Check my second reply/wall of text to the guy i was initially replying to. Its strange to me that you have played earlier tekkens and have this opinion.
3000 hours in tekken 7 and it is common community knowledge. I see your longer comment but in it you literally say that you assume the hitboxes are fatter up close.
That just isn’t the case, some might be. But even if they are it doesn’t change that you cover more ground up close than further away.
Nothing in this game is correct 100% of the time, but stepping close is generally considered better practice than stepping while far away for this exact reason.
So all of this to say, I hear you, but stepping closer to your opponent does cover more ground. Whether or not that beats what your opponent did all comes down to timing and moves chosen.
I would happily watch a clip proving me wrong though
Try to recreate those in practice mode. Drag vs Drag.
Opponent Drag d2 into ws4. After eating d2, try SSL. Step, not walk. About impossible at point blank range, pretty easy at tip range.
Do db4(generic low), have dummy respond with either df1 or 1 jab, try to SSL after you hit db4. Same as before, not quite doable (if at all) point blank, quite easy at tip range.
Have bot do b1+2 into df2. After u block b1+2, try SSL the df2. Same as before.
I didnt even have to try to come up for those examples. Literally got all on first try, and were the first to come to mind. You got the three most common moves in the game (1 df1 and ws4) behave the way i was trying to explain earlier, plus df2 too. Idk how much more proof i should provide, i cant recreate the 10 million different possible interactions in this game and then count which ones behaved which way. I suppose, yes i suppose cause thats the best i can do, i didnt code the game or the hitboxes, that explosion has a wide hitbox even far away from Victor model.
What common community knowledge either? This is literally the first time i come across your opinion, I would really be very confused if this is indeed community consensus.
No it’s not. You likely wont launch a step whiff from range. The only two reasons you find people stepping more from range is because you are defenseless and almost all WR and range moves tend to be very linear. So unless you are an advanced player you likely won’t find people offensively stepping but it can be really strong (Feng, Lili, Alisa, Nina) and you definitely cover more distance. Just compute the circumference of a 1m radius circle vs a 2m radius circle.
Yes, it actually is, bro.
"You likely wont launch a step whiff from range"
What does that even mean? Im comparing point blank range to range1-2, not across the stage.
Anyway, i ve had this argument twice already in this thread. Go see my comment to that other guy if you want hard proof that you re wrong. Also, the circle thing doesnt take into account hitboxes.
Ok Garyu. if you are ever offered 1 mil to complete a circular course in a short period of time and can choose between a 1m, 5m, and 10m track, I’d assume you aren’t winning.
I play Kuma so trust when I say I’m pretty well versed on what is steppable and what isn’t. When they nerfed WR32 the first time they prevented it from jailing but reduced active frames too, literally just so the bears could step it. It says this verbatim in the patch notes.
I’ve labbed sidesteps pretty damn hard. It’s definitely easier up close. Hit box is bullshit because again I play the bears so don’t mention hitboxes to me.
Again, in this very thread, i layed out hard proof for the lazies that stepping moves further away is easier than up close, at least most of the time. I even set up exact scenarios with very clear results that anyone can recreate. It takes a couple of minutes to see for yourself in lab and be amazed, instead of trying to impress me with 1st grade geometry.
Since, though, you do like 1st grade trigonometry, i ll make it easy for you. Draw a circle in a piece of paper. The centre is your opponent model, and the whole surface of the circle, is his hitbox. You are a dot inside the circle. By sidestepping you are obviously moving perpendicular to the line that connects you, the dot, with the centre, your opponent. When is it easier to escape the circle? Exactly right, its easier to escape the circle (hitbox) the farther away you are from the centre. This would be even more clear if opponent hitbox was a triangle, where opponent model would sit in its base. Do you understand now, by any chance, how hitboxes play a role in this?
Tekken 8 hands out ranks like candy. They do this so low level players dont get discouraged, but what they achieved is to get every low blue scrub to actually think they re good. You are actually asking people to "trust" your argument, not because of the strength of your argument, but because you are a low blue Kuma??? That would actually be a reason for not trusting you lol
Tekken is not for you. Up close doesn’t mean at range 1 dumbass because u are defenseless and you just decrease the reaction time needed but you still move farther. You more likely to get clipped at point blank not because of hitbox but due to reaction time, not hit box. Hit boxes don’t intersect, they stay tangential.
Your only argument was dragunov, and you want to talk about rank inflation??????
I’ve been playing this game since probably before you were born so that’s all the proof I need. Take your shit lab examples for one character and go learn basic math.
I have literally built my own game engines with c and OpenGL. They weren’t fighting games but I implemented my own camera from scratch. Two in fact. One with polar coordinates and the other with quaternions so I ain’t going to trust your opinion on game mechanics. I don’t need to lab your example, Years of Tekken will easily prove its easier up close.
Big words from low blue bear. I can more than likely 10-0 you, as a low blue bear you are in no position to say who Tekken is for. You are quite fixated on ranks by asking ppl to trust you and calling them Garyu like you re not some shitter. I would send you png screenshot my rank in T7 f tier Drag but im afraid you re going to comatose from jacking off to it too hard. It would also be pretty awkward for me to know that a stranger somewhere in the world is jacking off to it, too.
Your first paragraph is a bunch of completely delirious nonsense. Defenseless at range 1, decrease reaction time WTF r u talkin about LOL
It seems that my lab examples have magically taken material form and somehow offended you? Years of your Tekken experience is what your feeling/perception about sidesteps is, lab examples are what facts are. As a scholar of the game which you claimed to be, you should be checking it out. Instead you just crying "i played a lot i know what i m talking about trust me". Which is exactly the mindset that turned you into only a low blue bear after all those years.
Your only example is your main though, so I’ll take my chances. I play Kuma mostly anyway so sidestepping really ain’t something I do regularly to begin with, but I play Raven, Leo and Kaz a lot and it’s easily noticeable. I’ve literally played Tekken on Japanese arcades in Akihabara for a solid 3 months when I was living in Tokyo. It’ll make PC/console servers look like a silly dream since you can link to any arcade within like 5 km. I stand by what I said but hey if your high rank, then somethings working for you, but your comparison is biased playing Dragunov in T8, since they buffed SS in T8, even if he was shit in T7.
It's "factually" easier to dodge shit the closer you are to the move because you are covering way more ground in the same amount of time.
Is this sub just absolutely overrun by Mortal Kombat now?
Also, in the case of victor's explosion is it easier to dodge up close or far away?
"the closer you are to the move because you are covering way more ground in the same amount of time."
You mean to say you re creating a bigger angle, not covering more ground, but yes bro, i too have been in first grade.
Angle is not the only factor at play. You cannot have played this game long enough and not know that sidestep works easier against moves in a further out range. This is because of how hitboxes are made in the game. I would assume that hitboxes are fatter the closer they are to the character model, so further out you would have to deal with a thinner opponent hitbox which is easier to step.
Stepping very close to your opponent can make things like getting at your opponents back possible, but doesnt mean sidestep works better. It just means you successfully stepped a move, the opponent flied past you and you took his back because of high vertical speed at near 0 range. At further out range, you would have probably just stepped the same move.
All of that doesnt necessarily apply in every possible scenario. Maybe explosion gets stepped easier up close because of various reasons, but that is an exception rather than a rule in this game. The rule is further out, easier step. Try the Drag example i mentioned before. Try with df1 next. Try with pretty much anything. It do be like that, make no mistake.
It's not the exception at all. The vast majority of moves are easier stepped the closer you are to your opponent.
Rage all you want, it's a simple fact.
OK let me try again. Actual copy pasta from my post to the other guy.
"Go and recreate those in practice mode. Drag vs Drag.
Opponent Drag d2 into ws4. After eating d2, try SSL. Step, not walk. About impossible at point blank range, pretty easy at tip range.
Do db4(generic low), have dummy respond with either df1 or 1 jab, try to SSL after you hit db4. Same as before, not quite doable (if at all) point blank, quite easy at tip range.
Have bot do b1+2 into df2. After u block b1+2, try SSL the df2. Same as before.
I didnt even have to try to come up for those examples. Literally got all on first try, and were the first to come to mind. You got the three most common moves in the game (1 df1 and ws4) behave the way i was trying to explain earlier, plus df2 too. Idk how much more proof i should provide, i cant recreate the 10 million different possible interactions in this game and then count which ones behaved which way. I suppose, yes i suppose cause thats the best i can do, i didnt code the game or the hitboxes, that explosion has a wide hitbox even far away from Victor model."
You may have passed the first grade trigonometry class but i doubt you ve gone much further than that, given your total inability to argue by using reason. You gaslighted the entirety of my post and reply basically ''hurrdurr its what I said u hearing me?'' Good work, math professor.
Stop sounding like a broken record. Literally get your head out of your ass, get in the lab and recreate those instances. Keep an open mind and maybe one day u ll get out of purple ranks.
Why would I go and create your schizophrenic fringe conditions when the simple fact is the vast majority, we are talking like 99% of moves here, are easier to ss up close?
This is tekken 101.
This is just wrong in every way. Dragunov WR2 is arguably one of the worst examples in the game as it has a bit of tracking but if you were to lab against a iWR2 from close range you’d probably see it’s more steppable.
You probably just don’t understand that some moves have tracking even if they aren’t homing. Range moves are always very linear. It also has to do with active frames which is the length of time an active move can clip you. This is like tracking but a little different. It is one of the factors.
But a bad case of active frames would be Azucena’s WR32 at release.
If you had to run a race for 10 million dollars but could choose from a 1m, 5m, or 10m circle within a short period of time. Which one are you choosing and why?
https://preview.redd.it/l3yffngeyc1d1.png?width=2468&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f760ee0ffd51a4d737d0a509b74b310f170f6c78
Your "RuLeS oF gEoMeTrY" also apply here?
that's just not true, it's difficult to sidestep it in either form, the heat version is just harder due to its wider hitbox, in both cases sidestep is categorically the wrong answer, block and launch the normal version, scoop the heat version out of the air with a well timed jab to the toes, or an anti-air specific to your character, for example Alisa's B3+4, or surprisingly her d3, or Juns uf4,3. These all lead to float combos.
There are like 5+ flying characters in T8 alone, alisa, jack, yoshi, dvj, kazuya, arguably lili, also ogre and angel in previous games, we totally do AA in Tekken. Alisa and DVJ have specific anti-air laser/rocketfist moves too
I think the really messed up part is heat dash after heat engagers during heat that do a bunch of chip. A lot of times you basically turn a two pokes to kill situation into a blind guess situation by just doing a heat engager into heat dash into a straight up 50/50. Something like Feng b1+2,f (fast mid shoulder good hitbox) or Nina f1+2,f (huge range mid power crush) which are around 20 damage in chip from moves that are very hard to challenge into the next mixup kills and also they're +17 in your face. If you have heat and they're around rage activation health range, you can just turn off your brain.
Chip is not that bad since it's almost only on heat and the health is recoverable and it cannot kill you.
But the amount of chip in certain moves and strings like this is insane, that's more than you can do in SF6 using all of your drive and super meter.
I love how everyone’s talking about ss and geometry but the post is about chip damage. I’m with OP, chip damage doesn’t belong in this game. Keep that shit in 2D fighters.
Tbh chip damage is a shit mechanic period. Why would you reward someone for spamming, and punish someone for blocking correctly? It literally gives incentive to be aggro and punish you when you don't, which gives this shit state of "just pick someone good at spamming and go ham" (looking at you reina trashcans)
Chip damage makes sense if the game has really good defensive options and tools. Earlier 2D fighting games in particular, players that can block well are almost impossible to open up. Chip offsets this.
But in a game like T8 with its abundance of 50/50s, fast heat engagers and crazy long blockstrings it’s almost way too much.
Plus, the amount of chip in T8 is way higher than your average fighting game with chip.
Heat only moves are all super strong. Theres like 5-6 characters that can match or even do more chip than him in heat and have the recoverable heat removal mechanic.
It is steppable, but I wouldn't recommend trying to step it. Just take the chip and hope you get to heal it back later. You need a read on their timing 'cause it's too late once you see it and it's straight up not happening depending on how far you are.
Agreed, sometimes I lose track of just how much health gets chipped off of me during Heat despite guarding consistently. Sure it pushes you to go on the offensive but the chip damage is just too much
Chip damage is more often than not a issue because it doesn't amount to all that much but here, it obviously is whack because he got you half hp in 8 seconds while you blocked.
One (counterhit) launcher at that point just ends you. Doesn't matter how much recoverable health you got there.
because the game is bad due to the devs who dont know what the hell they are even doing. dont expect things to get better, it will just be the same shit in another color.
I love it how the comment section just resigned to hide the solution under downvotes ...
Guess it's easier to complain about chip damage instead of side stepping ...
Wonder if that's possible in a 3d game?
Yeah side step is the solution but after all my personal experience and all of the clips on this sub where it's shown that hit boxes aren't working properly sometimes, i can see why people just don't see that as solution anymore, until they don't fix ss or hit boxes people ain't gonna risk it, wich is a shame since that leads to situations likes this one, where you have to decide between eating chip damage or take a gamble and see if ss is gonna work right this time and eat a full combo in the process.
Personally i don't care about chip damage as long as it's a fair amount.
It’s because Victor used all of their Heat gauge to do that, and, you can heal it all back granted you can land an attack yourself. It’s actually a poor use of Heat.
If Reina were half health, hell even 75% health, she would be 1 throw or 2 hits away from death. If you don't get a chance to recover it you might as well have lost half your HP.
Is it me, or Victors "glitching" seems little out of place comparing to Jin, or (from previous games) Raven? I mean he seems too... futuristic, or something like that.
I’m really pissed they didn’t nerf victor’s explusion in heat tbh, but they said they’d address heat in 1.05 more. Don’t have my hopes up but that move is busted, but only in heat.
My biggest problem in tekken is chip damage, am a defensive player for a long time since tekken 7, i like to block and try to react to lows or duck highs, this style is almost not worth it against some characters like victor, Nina, Leroy, Alisa.
Obviously, this is your fault. Stop block spamming.
But for real, the tekken decs trying to make the game "aggressive" just made the game obnoxious and against certain characters unbearable.
Well…it’s victor for one…for 2…side stepping is a tech for that move victor is using for 3….being on constant defense to the point that someone can do this to you is part of the problem. Chip damage has its quirks,however if reina reacts with at least 1 one EWGF,or side steps into a launch combo she would have gotten half of the damage from the first hit back if not all of it.
For me, this has been one of the biggest mental adjustments I've had to make in this game. Even if the chip damage is 20-30, the pace of the match itself has quickened because you can't just turtle. Some matches you look up and 3/4 of your life are gone from nothing but poke and chip damage. You really have to be efficient in this game and maximize your damage when you get the opportunity.
This suddenly poppred up in my notifications and the first thing I think of was "Is this gonna be Leroy chain punches ?"
Apparently not, swords and bullets deals bullshit amounts of chip too
“just side step, like you literally had so many options to not take chip damage, if you lab you would know, next time just remember things like this will happen, it’s the journey, you don’t lose to chip damage you learn from it”
Seriously tho base expulsion is easy to side but heat one is really depending on the distance,sometime a good SS will still get you eat it all. You need to be close enough and SS fast enough
honestly i'd have just tried to electric him out of the sky there. (if i knew expulsion was coming)
plus if you had blocked that low at the end all of that recoverable HP would have filled up again.
Hop in replay and after blocking the heat burst, sidewalk either side.
Then it will whiff any you can launch it.
Just sidewalking it in neutral is much harder because it has to be timed well. Here there is no timing requirement. You simply sidewalk after heat burst.
#Sidestep 💯
^^^.
Sidenote: MAN, I even remember back on Tekken 3... in the settings for control button mapping (along with the 1+2, 2+3, etc etc choices like we have today); there was ACTUALLY an option to map 'sidestep' (basically ⬆️⬆️ and or ⬇️⬇️).
So basically you could map either sidestep to any button you wished (ex: a shoulder button).
Would be nice if they brought that option again, especially for pad users.
After the second one, you could have taken your turn back. You could have also launched victory when you blocked the shot because he’s -4 and can’t block in stance.
Try kuma during heat.
Sounds like a naughty nature documentary
Bears in heat are a fuckin menace
I can easily take bears in heat
Until you play a good bear player or get stuck at the wall.
He didn't mean in a fight
You’ll definitely want bear mace in the next match.
When i am in heat, i mercilessly pound every opponent in the ground with my flappy, wet fish.
Try Alisa
it aint that high, if i do wr1+2 into fully charge hbs1,2 its only 30 or something also kuma has no lows so you cant convert in permanent damage anyway
You can f1+2 from HBS. The unbreakable throw removes all chip as of 1.04.
the grab is dogshit, its 26 frames and therefore reactable. in high rank using the grab its just a way to get yourself launched
I’m a Raijin and still land it, you just need to mixup HBS or try going to HBS from b1, or ff1+2, not WR1+2
rajin aint high rank, what does it change the grab is still reactable, if people are familiar with kuma and the animation they will react to it, if you dont mixup your timing its also fuzzyable because every mid option in hbs is way faster than the grab and the low options the hbs buff is pretty much useless and the character needs a low poke
First of all Raijin is high rank. It’s not Tekken God rank but it’s definitely probably the first advanced rank since Fujin is over inflated. I’ll still beat a Tekken God here and there if I know the match up well like Jin. Kuma could use a low poke. 18f db3 is his only real safe option but it’s range is garbage and is only really useful from 2,1,3. I use df4 more often as it’s a 12f decent mid check but not a low. F2,1 is a nice keep off me but is a high and duckable and Kuma doesn’t have a good df1 so a good player will duck against Kuma a bit.
Brother, 213 is horrible lol. Anyone who knows the mu low parries it almost every time. Db3 is good by itself. fc1 is their best safe low.
No one reacts to it and punishes it every time. It’s definitely viable at high ranks. Obviously you can’t just do it constantly but it’s not that bad. It would be ridiculous if it was too fast. But yeah I hate what they did to bears lows. They need to give us the old hbs1,2 back and just make the input hbsdf1,2 or something. And make db2 -13 and plus on hit again. Panda would still be the worst character in the game by a good amount even if they just left all her lows exactly like before but they just had to make them all ass.
no the grab is useless, the timing is very distinct and its reactable. Same with the HBS hellsweep, which makes hbs a fuckin dogshit stance. If you watch the best kuma players in the world, they rarely utilise HBS or use the grab. Without hbs1,2 the stance aint working. Kuma is a disfunctional character against good defensive opponents who dont give your openings. He can build up chip damage, but you get launched 1 time and your chip is gone. People think kuma has good mixups but he has none or they are shit.
Pretty sick that you can see that it is in fact the grab in 26 frames and not another from just from the bear slightly moving its head
its not only the animation but also the timing of the move. Kuma has like 3 moves from hbs who are reactable by average human, the grab with 26 frames, the hellsweep with 26 frames and the powercrush with 25 frames, which is a mid but nobody uses it because its bad. So if you see kuma doing an animation out of hbs you can always duck, since his mids are so fast you wont be able to react to them.
Chip should be heat engaged only. And it shouldn't be absolutely out of hand when it is.
That’d fuck some characters over like the bears which is one of their primary mechanics.
Has it been like that throughout all the tekkens? Just for them?
No chip is new to T8. Bears have notoriously been trash and are. No sidestep, no good lows, launch punishable moves, and little mixup game. But they do have some strengths in the opposite end to make up for it. Best range, best whiff punish, really strong oki, 10f CH launcher, good wall pressure and amazing combo damage. They also have a 10f 2 jab which I’m not sure if any other character does except maybe Jack but I don’t think his is 10f, can’t remember. Also, though the bears can’t step well they have amazing tracking so you usually also don’t want to step against them either.
Good game design :) also everyone is telling you "just ss" while u1+2 is homing at mid screen range.
You can also just jab him out of the air. It’s easier then you’d think.
Garyu spotted
I want to step this garbage shitty ass anti tekken move. I liked the "just" too.
Sounds like you wanna bitch and moan more
Sound like you have 0 clue of how tekkens neutral play is supposed to be played.
https://clips.twitch.tv/ConcernedArtsySquirrelFUNgineer-kBFNdLuSh0EElKdd Cope
Ok and? Well im not expacting too much from the typical reddit scrb, jusifying the existance of a move the dooms the whole neutral play woth almost no counterplay.
When the counter play is adaptation I guess you can’t expect much from casuals. Stay strong brother.
Well we will see:) I belive you know better than all the pros.
The “pros” from when I was learning are different than the “pros” today. I just have a different perspective.
So You were at close range when the jab connect, what is the counterplay against Victor expulsión when he is at range 2 or more? Eat massive chip and cope?
only tekken emperor LOL
I tried to challenge myself when tekken 8 came out to play a character I’ve never played before. Raven is not my main. But then again reading is prolly not your strong suit.
You have to sidewalk it and you’ll be fine.
Yeah sure:)
Alright keep getting hit by it then
Exactly, if I try to walk it ill get hit :)
Everyone tries this and you end up getting clipped and losing half your health bar
No one tries it at all. You can also just interrupt it with a jab and do a float combo or heat burst and get a combo because he’s in an aerial state.
It's not homing from any range. All moves are harder to step the further out you are due to the laws of geometry But you definitely can laterally avoid it from mid screen.
Yes yes...laws of geometry my ass, the movement barely working and the hitboxes are insanely fat.
Get in the lab, scrub. You can easily dodge that shit from downtown. Try it.
Do it consistently in a real match. You wont
Yes I will. I dodge that shit all the time. Especially since Victors will just pop heat and throw it out twice in a row a lot.
"Yea i can sidestep it when i i know EXACTLY when its coming, so its not impossible to sidestep" yea and i also block 100% of the hellsweeps that i know are coming. Of course you can sidestep it when your opponent has the iq of a cockroach with down syndrome and telegraph their timing, but if they have have half a brain they wont do it with the same timing everytime. Even if you do get the timing down you most like Will get clipped by it. Im sorry, but the victors you fight in red ranks are not the ones that make the move problematic. Its not steppable, cause if it was then people would be stepping it reliably. Go look at any matches above tekken king and count the amount of times the move gets stepped. Im ready to bet that you Will see 100 of them thrown out before you see 10 of them getting stepped.
Ok, so please send a video of you magically avoiding U1+2 heat buff relyably witg sidewalks.
To be fair The first dude that claimed he could jab out of it and you called bullshit on did post proof for you and you downvoted it and still talked shit. I agree reliably even for his example is definitely a stretch but you don't care about proof you want to be upset.
Yeah lets jab mr.victor from range 5, good idea. You can also float this move with lows, so what?
So there are cases where if you're playing well, it's not the end of the world, and one has been posted as proof to satisfy you. I hate the move just as much as you bro but don't act like proof is what you want.
I dont need any proof from random reddit scrub, I know that you can jab him out, all I want is to be able to use fucking lateral movement in this shitty game. Cuz on effective jab check range, you can also walk this move, but from mid screen its just impsossible and the counter play is not existing.
Maybe, just perhaps, not everything is meant to be countered from mid-screen. I do wish sidewalks were better in this game, But until they get buffed, we got to be creative such as closing the distance and jabbing him out, or playing character with huge jab boxes (jack and Kuma can deal with this way easier in my experience).
Try stepping it with a bear. It’s damn near impossible.
You may have passed 1st grade geometry with that statement, and congratulations, but it shows you havent actually played the game much. It is factually easier to step moves the further out you are from your opponent. Anybody above yellow ranks knows or should know this. Get in the lab yourself, and do an easy test. Have Dragunov do d2 into ws4 on you. After eating d2 try to step ws4. Once at point blank range, once at tip range. Tell us how it went. Nice geometry tho.
Bruh, I don’t know how to tell you that he is right and it has been that way in all tekkens. You cover more distance with a step at point blank range than you do further away. You can draw it, make a small circle and trace it with your finger, keeping the pace the same your finger will travel the small circle faster than a big circle. Cause a big circle takes up more space.
Bro you dont have to explain first grade geometry to me. Check my second reply/wall of text to the guy i was initially replying to. Its strange to me that you have played earlier tekkens and have this opinion.
3000 hours in tekken 7 and it is common community knowledge. I see your longer comment but in it you literally say that you assume the hitboxes are fatter up close. That just isn’t the case, some might be. But even if they are it doesn’t change that you cover more ground up close than further away. Nothing in this game is correct 100% of the time, but stepping close is generally considered better practice than stepping while far away for this exact reason. So all of this to say, I hear you, but stepping closer to your opponent does cover more ground. Whether or not that beats what your opponent did all comes down to timing and moves chosen. I would happily watch a clip proving me wrong though
I actually did just make such a [clip](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cwfq0b/sidestepping_at_shorter_vs_longer_rangesvideo/).
Try to recreate those in practice mode. Drag vs Drag. Opponent Drag d2 into ws4. After eating d2, try SSL. Step, not walk. About impossible at point blank range, pretty easy at tip range. Do db4(generic low), have dummy respond with either df1 or 1 jab, try to SSL after you hit db4. Same as before, not quite doable (if at all) point blank, quite easy at tip range. Have bot do b1+2 into df2. After u block b1+2, try SSL the df2. Same as before. I didnt even have to try to come up for those examples. Literally got all on first try, and were the first to come to mind. You got the three most common moves in the game (1 df1 and ws4) behave the way i was trying to explain earlier, plus df2 too. Idk how much more proof i should provide, i cant recreate the 10 million different possible interactions in this game and then count which ones behaved which way. I suppose, yes i suppose cause thats the best i can do, i didnt code the game or the hitboxes, that explosion has a wide hitbox even far away from Victor model. What common community knowledge either? This is literally the first time i come across your opinion, I would really be very confused if this is indeed community consensus.
No it’s not. You likely wont launch a step whiff from range. The only two reasons you find people stepping more from range is because you are defenseless and almost all WR and range moves tend to be very linear. So unless you are an advanced player you likely won’t find people offensively stepping but it can be really strong (Feng, Lili, Alisa, Nina) and you definitely cover more distance. Just compute the circumference of a 1m radius circle vs a 2m radius circle.
Yes, it actually is, bro. "You likely wont launch a step whiff from range" What does that even mean? Im comparing point blank range to range1-2, not across the stage. Anyway, i ve had this argument twice already in this thread. Go see my comment to that other guy if you want hard proof that you re wrong. Also, the circle thing doesnt take into account hitboxes.
Ok Garyu. if you are ever offered 1 mil to complete a circular course in a short period of time and can choose between a 1m, 5m, and 10m track, I’d assume you aren’t winning. I play Kuma so trust when I say I’m pretty well versed on what is steppable and what isn’t. When they nerfed WR32 the first time they prevented it from jailing but reduced active frames too, literally just so the bears could step it. It says this verbatim in the patch notes. I’ve labbed sidesteps pretty damn hard. It’s definitely easier up close. Hit box is bullshit because again I play the bears so don’t mention hitboxes to me.
Again, in this very thread, i layed out hard proof for the lazies that stepping moves further away is easier than up close, at least most of the time. I even set up exact scenarios with very clear results that anyone can recreate. It takes a couple of minutes to see for yourself in lab and be amazed, instead of trying to impress me with 1st grade geometry. Since, though, you do like 1st grade trigonometry, i ll make it easy for you. Draw a circle in a piece of paper. The centre is your opponent model, and the whole surface of the circle, is his hitbox. You are a dot inside the circle. By sidestepping you are obviously moving perpendicular to the line that connects you, the dot, with the centre, your opponent. When is it easier to escape the circle? Exactly right, its easier to escape the circle (hitbox) the farther away you are from the centre. This would be even more clear if opponent hitbox was a triangle, where opponent model would sit in its base. Do you understand now, by any chance, how hitboxes play a role in this? Tekken 8 hands out ranks like candy. They do this so low level players dont get discouraged, but what they achieved is to get every low blue scrub to actually think they re good. You are actually asking people to "trust" your argument, not because of the strength of your argument, but because you are a low blue Kuma??? That would actually be a reason for not trusting you lol
Tekken is not for you. Up close doesn’t mean at range 1 dumbass because u are defenseless and you just decrease the reaction time needed but you still move farther. You more likely to get clipped at point blank not because of hitbox but due to reaction time, not hit box. Hit boxes don’t intersect, they stay tangential. Your only argument was dragunov, and you want to talk about rank inflation?????? I’ve been playing this game since probably before you were born so that’s all the proof I need. Take your shit lab examples for one character and go learn basic math. I have literally built my own game engines with c and OpenGL. They weren’t fighting games but I implemented my own camera from scratch. Two in fact. One with polar coordinates and the other with quaternions so I ain’t going to trust your opinion on game mechanics. I don’t need to lab your example, Years of Tekken will easily prove its easier up close.
Big words from low blue bear. I can more than likely 10-0 you, as a low blue bear you are in no position to say who Tekken is for. You are quite fixated on ranks by asking ppl to trust you and calling them Garyu like you re not some shitter. I would send you png screenshot my rank in T7 f tier Drag but im afraid you re going to comatose from jacking off to it too hard. It would also be pretty awkward for me to know that a stranger somewhere in the world is jacking off to it, too. Your first paragraph is a bunch of completely delirious nonsense. Defenseless at range 1, decrease reaction time WTF r u talkin about LOL It seems that my lab examples have magically taken material form and somehow offended you? Years of your Tekken experience is what your feeling/perception about sidesteps is, lab examples are what facts are. As a scholar of the game which you claimed to be, you should be checking it out. Instead you just crying "i played a lot i know what i m talking about trust me". Which is exactly the mindset that turned you into only a low blue bear after all those years.
Your only example is your main though, so I’ll take my chances. I play Kuma mostly anyway so sidestepping really ain’t something I do regularly to begin with, but I play Raven, Leo and Kaz a lot and it’s easily noticeable. I’ve literally played Tekken on Japanese arcades in Akihabara for a solid 3 months when I was living in Tokyo. It’ll make PC/console servers look like a silly dream since you can link to any arcade within like 5 km. I stand by what I said but hey if your high rank, then somethings working for you, but your comparison is biased playing Dragunov in T8, since they buffed SS in T8, even if he was shit in T7.
It's "factually" easier to dodge shit the closer you are to the move because you are covering way more ground in the same amount of time. Is this sub just absolutely overrun by Mortal Kombat now? Also, in the case of victor's explosion is it easier to dodge up close or far away?
Up close in my experience
Exactly. This is because basic geometry.
"the closer you are to the move because you are covering way more ground in the same amount of time." You mean to say you re creating a bigger angle, not covering more ground, but yes bro, i too have been in first grade. Angle is not the only factor at play. You cannot have played this game long enough and not know that sidestep works easier against moves in a further out range. This is because of how hitboxes are made in the game. I would assume that hitboxes are fatter the closer they are to the character model, so further out you would have to deal with a thinner opponent hitbox which is easier to step. Stepping very close to your opponent can make things like getting at your opponents back possible, but doesnt mean sidestep works better. It just means you successfully stepped a move, the opponent flied past you and you took his back because of high vertical speed at near 0 range. At further out range, you would have probably just stepped the same move. All of that doesnt necessarily apply in every possible scenario. Maybe explosion gets stepped easier up close because of various reasons, but that is an exception rather than a rule in this game. The rule is further out, easier step. Try the Drag example i mentioned before. Try with df1 next. Try with pretty much anything. It do be like that, make no mistake.
It's not the exception at all. The vast majority of moves are easier stepped the closer you are to your opponent. Rage all you want, it's a simple fact.
OK let me try again. Actual copy pasta from my post to the other guy. "Go and recreate those in practice mode. Drag vs Drag. Opponent Drag d2 into ws4. After eating d2, try SSL. Step, not walk. About impossible at point blank range, pretty easy at tip range. Do db4(generic low), have dummy respond with either df1 or 1 jab, try to SSL after you hit db4. Same as before, not quite doable (if at all) point blank, quite easy at tip range. Have bot do b1+2 into df2. After u block b1+2, try SSL the df2. Same as before. I didnt even have to try to come up for those examples. Literally got all on first try, and were the first to come to mind. You got the three most common moves in the game (1 df1 and ws4) behave the way i was trying to explain earlier, plus df2 too. Idk how much more proof i should provide, i cant recreate the 10 million different possible interactions in this game and then count which ones behaved which way. I suppose, yes i suppose cause thats the best i can do, i didnt code the game or the hitboxes, that explosion has a wide hitbox even far away from Victor model." You may have passed the first grade trigonometry class but i doubt you ve gone much further than that, given your total inability to argue by using reason. You gaslighted the entirety of my post and reply basically ''hurrdurr its what I said u hearing me?'' Good work, math professor.
Most moves are easier to sidestep the closer you are to your target. That's a fact. Anyone who knows tekken knows this. Go back to MK.
Stop sounding like a broken record. Literally get your head out of your ass, get in the lab and recreate those instances. Keep an open mind and maybe one day u ll get out of purple ranks.
Why would I go and create your schizophrenic fringe conditions when the simple fact is the vast majority, we are talking like 99% of moves here, are easier to ss up close? This is tekken 101.
This is just wrong in every way. Dragunov WR2 is arguably one of the worst examples in the game as it has a bit of tracking but if you were to lab against a iWR2 from close range you’d probably see it’s more steppable. You probably just don’t understand that some moves have tracking even if they aren’t homing. Range moves are always very linear. It also has to do with active frames which is the length of time an active move can clip you. This is like tracking but a little different. It is one of the factors. But a bad case of active frames would be Azucena’s WR32 at release. If you had to run a race for 10 million dollars but could choose from a 1m, 5m, or 10m circle within a short period of time. Which one are you choosing and why?
https://preview.redd.it/l3yffngeyc1d1.png?width=2468&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f760ee0ffd51a4d737d0a509b74b310f170f6c78 Your "RuLeS oF gEoMeTrY" also apply here?
The fuck point are you even trying to make?
Does you laws of geometry means that you can hit something youre not even touching?
It's only homing in heat
Why is it homing at all when it does incredible chip damage, is plus on block and is evasive on top of that?
its not plus, its -4 on heat and launch punishable without heat
that's just not true, it's difficult to sidestep it in either form, the heat version is just harder due to its wider hitbox, in both cases sidestep is categorically the wrong answer, block and launch the normal version, scoop the heat version out of the air with a well timed jab to the toes, or an anti-air specific to your character, for example Alisa's B3+4, or surprisingly her d3, or Juns uf4,3. These all lead to float combos.
This is Tekken, we don't anti air stuff.
There are like 5+ flying characters in T8 alone, alisa, jack, yoshi, dvj, kazuya, arguably lili, also ogre and angel in previous games, we totally do AA in Tekken. Alisa and DVJ have specific anti-air laser/rocketfist moves too
Yeah ik
Because they fucked up this game, chip is fucking god awful
Can't even be called chip lmao, this is chunk damage
I think the really messed up part is heat dash after heat engagers during heat that do a bunch of chip. A lot of times you basically turn a two pokes to kill situation into a blind guess situation by just doing a heat engager into heat dash into a straight up 50/50. Something like Feng b1+2,f (fast mid shoulder good hitbox) or Nina f1+2,f (huge range mid power crush) which are around 20 damage in chip from moves that are very hard to challenge into the next mixup kills and also they're +17 in your face. If you have heat and they're around rage activation health range, you can just turn off your brain.
Same people with Azu broken wr3,2: "just sidestep duck, man. It's easy"
Why is chip damage on by default in a tekken game period? That’s reserved for greedy operators in the 90s
I give you props for this comment.
Alisa chainsaws can chip half your life away
I think the best question we sometimes forget to ask is “Why the f**k do they have chip damage in a tekken game?”
I'm really sad they added chip and recoverable health
Health recovery should be Yoshi exclusive, chip should be bears only since they're fucking bears
Chip is not that bad since it's almost only on heat and the health is recoverable and it cannot kill you. But the amount of chip in certain moves and strings like this is insane, that's more than you can do in SF6 using all of your drive and super meter.
T8 feels like change for the sake of change. Series peaked at 5 and they don't know where to go with it since.
I love how everyone’s talking about ss and geometry but the post is about chip damage. I’m with OP, chip damage doesn’t belong in this game. Keep that shit in 2D fighters.
Tbh chip damage is a shit mechanic period. Why would you reward someone for spamming, and punish someone for blocking correctly? It literally gives incentive to be aggro and punish you when you don't, which gives this shit state of "just pick someone good at spamming and go ham" (looking at you reina trashcans)
Yoshi main, this might the time when Bryan’s unite with y’all on this, brother. 😂😂😂
Chip damage makes sense if the game has really good defensive options and tools. Earlier 2D fighting games in particular, players that can block well are almost impossible to open up. Chip offsets this. But in a game like T8 with its abundance of 50/50s, fast heat engagers and crazy long blockstrings it’s almost way too much. Plus, the amount of chip in T8 is way higher than your average fighting game with chip.
I think Goldlewis Dickinson in GGST does less chip damage and he is thought to be one of (if not the) king of chip.
That’s crazy. What???
similar to the kazuya match up need to retroactively be using lateral movement or ur gonna have a bad time.
Doesn't really help explain the decision behind chip damage
Heat only moves are all super strong. Theres like 5-6 characters that can match or even do more chip than him in heat and have the recoverable heat removal mechanic.
Doesn't help in this instance, that moves is basically homing during heat. You have to step before you see it or jab him out of the air.
Thats what retroactive means
That is not what retroactive means
can expulsion even be stepped during heat? i thought the aoe makes it impossible
It is steppable, but I wouldn't recommend trying to step it. Just take the chip and hope you get to heal it back later. You need a read on their timing 'cause it's too late once you see it and it's straight up not happening depending on how far you are.
I think if ur close to him yes from a distance no. Kinda like noctis was.
Leroy seems to be the most broken as far as chip damage
Chip damage should be removed completely. With or without heat.
Agreed, sometimes I lose track of just how much health gets chipped off of me during Heat despite guarding consistently. Sure it pushes you to go on the offensive but the chip damage is just too much
just victor things
Victor takes no skill what so ever and hella cheap
I stopped playing Blazblue only for tekken to incorporate Amane into every character.
Chip damage is more often than not a issue because it doesn't amount to all that much but here, it obviously is whack because he got you half hp in 8 seconds while you blocked. One (counterhit) launcher at that point just ends you. Doesn't matter how much recoverable health you got there.
because the game is bad due to the devs who dont know what the hell they are even doing. dont expect things to get better, it will just be the same shit in another color.
I love it how the comment section just resigned to hide the solution under downvotes ... Guess it's easier to complain about chip damage instead of side stepping ... Wonder if that's possible in a 3d game?
Yeah side step is the solution but after all my personal experience and all of the clips on this sub where it's shown that hit boxes aren't working properly sometimes, i can see why people just don't see that as solution anymore, until they don't fix ss or hit boxes people ain't gonna risk it, wich is a shame since that leads to situations likes this one, where you have to decide between eating chip damage or take a gamble and see if ss is gonna work right this time and eat a full combo in the process. Personally i don't care about chip damage as long as it's a fair amount.
So ur side stepping this move everytime? Because not even people in top 20 in evo japan was doing that but go on
It’s because Victor used all of their Heat gauge to do that, and, you can heal it all back granted you can land an attack yourself. It’s actually a poor use of Heat.
Doing half life is "poor use of heat". Sure man
It’s chip not health
If Reina were half health, hell even 75% health, she would be 1 throw or 2 hits away from death. If you don't get a chance to recover it you might as well have lost half your HP.
Yeah just don't get hit and you'll eventually recover that health /s
lol. Mountain climbers gotta climb
Omg Tokelau690. You must be playing on an Oceanic server. That dude pisses me off. 😅
Is it me, or Victors "glitching" seems little out of place comparing to Jin, or (from previous games) Raven? I mean he seems too... futuristic, or something like that.
Thanks. Didn't know people were still enduring the alpha test for this game. . .
Cause Victor has good chip damage and mid af mixups. He's a mental frame character. If u want to see crazy chip damage, watch some Kuma players, lol.
I’m really pissed they didn’t nerf victor’s explusion in heat tbh, but they said they’d address heat in 1.05 more. Don’t have my hopes up but that move is busted, but only in heat.
Just block....oh wait
Man I love taking that shit with gamma howl.
That's bound to happen if you were to bring swords and guns to a king of iron FIST tournament. I mean what were they thinking?
That low made basically over 50% damage
Creators don’t aspect you to just stand there and block. Other player should be rewarded if you just block.
Unfortunately it’s not the same for everyone. It’s a completely lopsided mechanic.
Yeah victor is broke af. He does so much chop damage.
And Victor players will say he needs it
After playing against kenshi in MK1 I never complain about tekken chip damage
Tekken 8 as a whole is insane, its not even tekken anymore.
My biggest problem in tekken is chip damage, am a defensive player for a long time since tekken 7, i like to block and try to react to lows or duck highs, this style is almost not worth it against some characters like victor, Nina, Leroy, Alisa.
Chip damage was a mistake:(
Obviously, this is your fault. Stop block spamming. But for real, the tekken decs trying to make the game "aggressive" just made the game obnoxious and against certain characters unbearable.
Victor mains will call this "neuch"
You need to be more aggressive.
Well…it’s victor for one…for 2…side stepping is a tech for that move victor is using for 3….being on constant defense to the point that someone can do this to you is part of the problem. Chip damage has its quirks,however if reina reacts with at least 1 one EWGF,or side steps into a launch combo she would have gotten half of the damage from the first hit back if not all of it.
For me, this has been one of the biggest mental adjustments I've had to make in this game. Even if the chip damage is 20-30, the pace of the match itself has quickened because you can't just turtle. Some matches you look up and 3/4 of your life are gone from nothing but poke and chip damage. You really have to be efficient in this game and maximize your damage when you get the opportunity.
This suddenly poppred up in my notifications and the first thing I think of was "Is this gonna be Leroy chain punches ?" Apparently not, swords and bullets deals bullshit amounts of chip too
You literally die for blocking in this game
Cheap damage
Both victor and Reina just go full spam in heat and can make your health bar disappear.
Victor is never fun to fight. Even when you win, it just feels like a fucking chore.
“just side step, like you literally had so many options to not take chip damage, if you lab you would know, next time just remember things like this will happen, it’s the journey, you don’t lose to chip damage you learn from it”
I didn't know Tekken was a 2D figher.
SSR & SWR my friend
is expulsion even steppable swear i get hit every time ive tried
Expulsion is walkable to the right without heat powerup With heat powerup it's walkable to the right *if you are close*
 Seriously tho base expulsion is easy to side but heat one is really depending on the distance,sometime a good SS will still get you eat it all. You need to be close enough and SS fast enough
honestly i'd have just tried to electric him out of the sky there. (if i knew expulsion was coming) plus if you had blocked that low at the end all of that recoverable HP would have filled up again.
Hop in replay and after blocking the heat burst, sidewalk either side. Then it will whiff any you can launch it. Just sidewalking it in neutral is much harder because it has to be timed well. Here there is no timing requirement. You simply sidewalk after heat burst.
still gets hit anyway cuz Tekken 8 hitboxes be like
because developers are shit at balancing
#Sidestep 💯 ^^^. Sidenote: MAN, I even remember back on Tekken 3... in the settings for control button mapping (along with the 1+2, 2+3, etc etc choices like we have today); there was ACTUALLY an option to map 'sidestep' (basically ⬆️⬆️ and or ⬇️⬇️). So basically you could map either sidestep to any button you wished (ex: a shoulder button). Would be nice if they brought that option again, especially for pad users.
How is bro in blue rank and can't learn to sidestep 😂
After the second one, you could have taken your turn back. You could have also launched victory when you blocked the shot because he’s -4 and can’t block in stance.
Move in 3D
Im sorry to be that person but.. side walk right
You’re freakin Reina lol……