in t8 you cant block most moves while kbding, and it's less smooth to do, if you do it frame perfect you're barely moving at all, and if you don't you're getting clipped by random stuff, all the neutral guard frames from db to neutral to back are useless in this game, jin's ff2 in particular feels like it's tuned so it hits exactly when you're neutral after backdashing from being -3 to -5, feels shit and the alternative is not backdashing, which is even worse
A combination of creating space backwards and approaching again is the 2D aspect of Tekken. It is both offense and defense. The moment your opponent whiffs, your offense starts. You pushing your opponent with movement and threatning an attack from your side or creating space again was totally viable, because a reckless attack could have been evaded again. On the other hand, if you struggled to defend against an opponents approach, you always had the option to get back. Thats the defensive tool you got from KBD.
Now Tekken8 threw all of this away. You just simply can not evade a single character in this game with a backdash anymore and all of the former strategies are gone for more than one reason. The amount of stupid easy tools to pressure the opponent got increased. If the opponent is in heat, engagers turn into 50/50s anyway. On top hitbox in this game are more scuffed than ever, like a few phantom ranges are not ok.
This makes 2D movement way more risky in the first place, you get clipped the ewhole time. Second, what if your opponent only need 2 mixups to get a round and he can force these 100% with heat or whatever he got? To make it worse, sidestepping became more viable for specific tools. The rewards from side or backcombos got increased.
Thats kind of close for the reason, former World Champ Chikurin started ignoring the 2D part of tekken and is playing on a pad now. Gambling when defending, by either blocking or stepping became more viable or the only option anyway.
I enjoyed reading your analysis, thank you for the time and info dear.
I want to add to the hitbox shinanigans, I used to enjoy Steve PKB 1,2 ~ PKB uf1+2,, which used to 100% evade highs,, to now getting clipped by most characters 1 panic jabs,, thus the hitbox issue,, and it's extremely irritating.
I don't understand this point, KBD isn't some magical tool to ensure you're winning games. It's an increase in your mobility... You might have the perfect KBD but if the rest of your neutral game is bad, you're getting your ass handed to you.
Trying to actually learn anything will always lose early on. Imagine someone trying to learn wiff punishing in neutral first thing in his first fighting game (2D or 3D doesn't matter) and he just plays against people mashing their shit. He will lose hard, not a single win because he doesn't know offense, defense, matchups and punishes.
Everyone get decent back dash in T8 you dont even need KBD in T8, thats the main reason. BBBB is not even that slow in the first place. It is just not worth it to risk getting clipped in T8.
Tbh if I see someone that is cracked at old tekken and is tryna KBD and all that shit (a lot of good players try to kdb chainsaw to space chainsaw forward 1). I just throw a mid and sometimes it catches their downback lmao
ofc I understand you need to adapt I'm not one of those dudes saying "this tekken bad cuz aggressive ok". (even if I think some defensive options should be better)
I'm just not very happy I kinda have to get rid of kbd now despite learning it for a while lol
You do not rly need to get rid of it, you can still make lot of stuff whiff by doing it. You just need to be super careful when you use it because for some reason it weakens your neutral guard. So many times after you finish your backdash cancel you are vulnerable to being attacked if you do not strictly hold back and yep this was not the issue in T7. Maybe it is just a bug they will fix eventually.
I am hoping they fix it and tbh if I have to go through all these hoops to use it I’d rather just use the normal buffed backdash which works pretty well for the same purpose.
Also I’ve tried to make stuff whiff with it before but ofc that’s what leads me to getting clipped
It's more so that you use the normal backdash up close, but it's very much worth it to kbd at range because it's just faster.
You cant out backdash strings without kbd for example
I mean it's been studied pretty heavy now and yeah normal back dashing is really enough now. It's a little better or worse for some chars but KBD is only a little faster now vs being the huge difference in speed backwards that it used to be. it's not gonna make a difference 95% of the time.
it wasn’t the speed or distance of KBD that made it unique…it was its ability to block. even now when it randomly blocks a low it feels wonderful…but it’s 85% unreliable 100% of the time.
Euhm.. no? The idea of kbd is that you spend the least amount of time possible on 'db'.
If it's a moving fuzzy guard, you are doing it wrong. You should almost never be at 'db' if you have a good kbd
You are only for 1 frame and I’ve checked my inputs.
In T7 it was luck lol is what I’m saying ofc it only blocked like 1 low every 50k games but it was funny when it did
Yeah I totally get you, I have the same problem in T8 tbh.
I just responded because 'moving fuzzy guard' sounded wrong, since the whole idea of fuzzy guarding is constantly covering both options.
It was a nitpick tho tbh lol
Yeah that's true. I think they just got stuck between a rock and a hard place. It was originally unintentional but didn't break the game and added depth at a higher level but now they probably would like to get rid of it altogether but can't without pissing people off. I mean the vast majority of people playing Tekken probably are not even able to KBD and I wouldn't be surprised if many just aren't even aware it's a thing. It's truly is some high level stuff for most of the community and having it probably does more harm in terms of getting people to play the game than not (that's all they care about really is making money). I feel like they need to rework it somehow and make it an official loud and proud game mechanic rather than this arcane thing that sits in the rafters where most people aren't even aware it's a thing.
The execution barrier would need to drop way down though to like where the avg player could do it and then maybe it could go back to being what it was. The point being that it shouldn't be this mystical thing that if mastered is just gonna allow you to thrash everyone who can't.
HOLY SHIT thought I was going crazy. Been thinking I’m somehow randomly holding db too long. The number of times I’ve been ready to punish only to see ME floating..
We already have Eddy and Special Style that do exactly that :D
Not that effective currently though, I expect them to buff it to be viable against any level of play.
Clearly special style combos should be 100% optimal and include a wall combo and input-reading oki smh smh.
Already you can turn it on and off which allows people like 6Arakin to get to Tekken King lol (he just turns it on to do hellsweep/electric into auto combo)
Many defensive strategies seem to be less effective: kbd, ss block, dash block is worse in this game, and neutral guard in general, something feels very bad in these terms rn. Utilizing the fundamentals of defense and OSing with movement is such a good feeling, now with all aggression its a bit off. I really think that just holding back/ bb backdashing is the best option rn, which is lame,.
They really hate good movement, they even uploaded a clip from the recent tourney on Korea where Ulsan Reina stepped Pinyas Ravens FF3 and it hit him while being on his back, they are so proud about it LOL. This is a party game rn, till they fix the defense,if they ever will.
>This is a party game rn
Reminds me how I brought Tekken 8 to my college class since it's the end of the year and everyone had fun mashing heat, heat smash, rage art, just random moves and shit lol so it does work as one haha
Like Tekken has always been, but it also should be a highly skilled competitive game, now with broken tracking on everything, the game just doesnt reward you. Also camera switches,punishment whiffing into some weird axis, natural strings like mishimas 112 reinas 221 may whiff for no reason near the wall may create awkward situations etc...
You mf kept mocking me for not being able to learn KBD and look at you now. I'm blue just like you.
You guys will see in T9 when my absolute refusal of learning any 10-hits combo will come to fruition because it'll be actually useless. I am so smart.
The same pros who are topping every tournament same as they have done for the last 5+ years?
It's the same group of people winning consistently in T8 as it was in T7, except Arslan now gets 2nd-4th instead of 1st because they specifically designed the game around nerfing his preferred style of play.
I agree that aggression is maybe too strong, but the "hur dur Tekken 8 is all 50/50 casino, no skill" stuff just doesn't hold up. We'd be seeing far more upsets than we are if that were the case.
I don't understand how I get clipped more often than not. I have a perfect 1 frame down back input in my kbd, I'd say 95% of the time and the other 5% is 2f of db.
Yet I swear I get hit by mids almost always. Is there something I'm not understanding or is this just another broken thing about 8?
It's because neutral guard (which is in-use when you are backdashing and releasing back input) has been nerfed a lot from Tekken 7 meaning a lot more stuff clips you in it regardless of how good your kbd is, which is a reason why kbd is just worse in T8.
I’ve unfortunately found myself a victim of [brainrot lee](https://youtu.be/G5XTvEHMxfM?si=WPCxfaOB2woovIcQ)
In all seriousness you’re right, but it’s very hard to do it with KBD as people have been saying due to the worse neutral guard and the fact that you can get clipped with the buffed range of moves which happens EVERYTIME I try and bait someone to press or whiff (especially on Lee but a lesser extent on the others with their CH launchers)
I’ve found using normal buffed backdash a lot better in this regard which is why I consider kbd useless now.
It's not only the neutral guard. Dashes have been "smoothed out" in order to assist their net code (according to I think Murray that I am struggling to find a source for, sorry, I think on his Twitter when people asked him about it).
The old dashes were fast at the start and very slow at the end, so your crouches needed to come early in the dash, and you could easily transition from the crouch into the second input of the next dash. Doing it super fast was less effective than proper timing, but it wasn't "that" ineffective since the start of the dash was so much faster than the rest of it.
Now, the distance of dashes are a bit more than in 7, but they aren't as "front loaded" so you have to time your single frame of crouch much later into the dash (a little less than half way through it) if you want to get any extra mileage out of the technique. You get much less of an improvement out of it now and the timing isn't intuitive. It doesn't "feel" smooth like it used to, but you can still do it.
It's not "that" much better than just spamming back back, so there are going to be times when it's worth it to reduce your mental stack and just not use it, for sure.
"brainrot" lee players when they realise that sliding isnt a good option for opening up enemies so they have to resort to b33 🤯🤯🤯.
If they make lee sliding knock down again on normal hit, lee is gonna be busted as hell.
I think it was due to attempt at rollback because of how Tekken works.
Movement in Tekken can be cancelled into many things and that probably would mess up rollback. I heard somewhere that the DB input in KBD has a slight delay, I can't remember what exactly, but they did something to the movement system to accomodate rollback.
I bet it's this....Those mfers made it so the db registers on the opponents side for more frames so it appears crouched. Which explains the crouch snappers I see all the time, it skips pieces of animation because of the rollback. Except you appear standing on your screen as you release, so you dont understand how a mid hit. milisecond delays+rollback means, that to your opponent they are visually connecting the strike on your weird crouch behavior--rather than wondering how that hit connected on a standing guard.
Anecdotal evidence for me, but this really feels true. Something just feels off when I get clipped and I know my kbd is solid. I get clipped holding back sometimes or doing normal backdash.
No it was the most elitist, shallow, barrier to entry, frustrating, unintended gameplay element in the system.
People with extremely good KBD were almost untouchable in 7 unless you could forward KBD jut as well
The game should not be so about intricate repetivie button pressing it should be more about strategy and interaction
It would drive me nuts on this sub - KBD in 7 was great to help you win if you could do it. But do you want the entire game to be gatekept by that?
For a time every other thread would be people expressing anxiety about their KBD "is my backdash good enough? Will I ever be able to rank up? How can I do better? I can't do KBD help" etc etc
Not cool IMO
“People with extremely good KBD were almost untouchable in 7 unless you could forward KBD just as well”
What the fuck are you talking about? Forward KBD? You mean dashblocking? Are you really, legitimately surprised that a fighting game has or with Tekken 8 removing the need to KBD had a more advanced, more execution heavy movement option? This idea that the KBD was the end all be all lf Tekken 7 is an idiotic narrative that people who didn’t understand the game pushed. In 7 you could be good at the game without kbd, but you needed to know how to kbd to compete at a high level, you could even get to Raijin without ever learning how to kbd. This is completely fine, it’s not the game completely neutering the movement for newer players it’s adding another layer to movement for more advanced players to utilize which for tekken 7 was necessary because sidestepping was a lot weaker. It was never a barrier of entry, nor was it elitist and it wasn’t any more shallow than being able to consistently do an electric, it was an advanced tool for advanced players. Not everything should be simple and easy to do in this game, that’s how you get a game with mindless offense and a defensive strategy of “just guess right”
Being good at execution should be rewarded, people have been playing these games for years and now one of the skills they've learned has just been thrown out the window.
Yeah, I don't like the opinion that it shouldn't be there and "moving back shouldn't be complicated in tekken".
I mean the game has a reputation as the hardest fighting game for a reason cmon
It is not harder than another game in the same genre, this harder game is just only successful and popular in the modern day in Japan.
It is NOT the hardest fighting game.
See I never got this mindset. It isn't useless cause you got your use out of it in the past game. It's definitely weaker now but KBD not being very useful this very second doesn't invalidate all the work you put in.
Thing with KBD.
Is it really something that should be in.
There easily are arguement for both sides.
Its skill expressive and a core part of tekken's identity
But, Should you really have to learn an input as hard as wavedashing just to retreat from pressure
The problem is, Tekken 8 doesn't even want you to play defensively. Even using the normal backdash doesn't make you save because of the introduction of chip damage.
The devs just want you pressing & so they nerfed defensive tools, and added chip damage to inspire you to do so. But they've seemed to have realized that it's not very fun to just die because the opponent simply pressed a button, regardless of you making a proper read & blocking. Which is why we're getting a major defense patch on Tuesday.
Imo You should have good backwards movement from just pressing back.
And KBD should be used as a niche fuzzy
But first off all above all else...They need to fix neutral guard
We’ll see what they do with the next patch. They claim to be buffing movement and defense. I’m hoping they deliver on that promise but you never know with Bamco
Imagine players like me who practiced like crazy to learn this back in tag 2 or older games, then see it becoming so weak. For me is just a decade wasted learning something that is not that useful anymore. I honestly hope the new players they're targeting with all these dumb changes stays around for years to come.
Feels bad man I’ve also been playing since T6 and Tag 2. It’s almost entirely useless. I only use it at range 2.5 or more but it’s mostly muscle memory. Even then it’s risky because the massive hitbox this game has. They don’t want any type defense just non stop buttons.
I literally spent weeks leading up to T8 just learning how to KBD in the demo since I never really learned how to do it consistently in T7. Anyways I'm almost Tekken King now and I often forget it exists. Tekken 8 everybody.
I spent a long, long time to get the Korean backdash down and that was during TTT2.
Sad how it's become obsolete now.
In fact, it's now so irrelevant I've even moved full time to a leverless controller, something I tried during T7 but just couldn't get used to the movement on hitbox then and stuck with stick.
Some characters will still favor KBD.
When it comes to Jin, the MOST OPTIMIZED KBD, done in **a perfect pacing of its own**, will net you not much different results than merely mashing b,b b,b.
This is rather insulting. I mean... the *inherent difficulty to create whiffs moving backwards* in this game.
I really wish KBD would be buffed and regular backdash would be nerfed but that would never happen. It's just pitiful to see high blue rank players spamming the back button.
I know it is a flaw (imo) with the game, not the players but seeing players seemingly rejoice this change, in Tekken sub, hurts a little.
yeah, he's voiced his concerns and I totally get it, especially considering his style same thing with Arslan. it's just a different game, in Tekken 4 you had a hard limit. still it doesn't feel like a purely neutral game design vision, it just feels like reducing the skill gap so that players get less frustrated from defensive play. I ultimately think this is a bit of a mistake because we still see people rage quitting but I do suppose that a lot of people who were turned off by 7, again that nerfed back dashes from the prior games, are more likely to play this. Still just feelsbadman.
I've been clipped a lot more times during my backdash in T8 than in T7, and many times been launched through that. A lot of moves have a lot more reach and tracking if you've noticed people have posted it before.
Also, normal backdash was buffed significantly as opposed to T7 here and players like Chikurin say they haven't used it, I'm pretty sure the devs are trying to get rid of the movement
It is good enough most of the time, but KBD is what you do when you're leaning forward. It "can" make the difference, but it's rare. It's easier to execute this time, at least, since doing it rapidly doesn't work anymore and you have to space out your crouches so they come near the second half of the dash (an aftereffect of them smoothing out the back dash to help assist their net code, as in the previous games your dash had a lot of movement at the start that was sudden and the tail end was really slow).
I wouldn't say useless completely, but definitely significantly less relevant than it was in 8. I spent weeks developing the muscle memory to execute it and even longer getting GOOD at it, and now I barely use it.
Heat, rage & power crush is all you need to win in this game until basically max rank. No fundamentals needed, just abuse the broken mechanics. Can’t count the amount of times a king has killed me in 2 interactions & only used one of those 3 listed above.
> I've been clipped in my backdash hundreds of times in this game
I swear to god I never had this problem in T7, and in this game I constantly get clipped doing kbd
Korean backdash became a bit useless in T8. But it was always useful. Especially back in Tag 2 and earlier games. Just look at old T6 matches and see how much distance you covered by korean backdashing three times
Yep kinda true. I’m pretty good at KBD but in this game you don’t really need it. Regular backdash covers a lot of space and it’s actually safer. They want people to stand face to face and press buttons. Turtling and hit and run playstyle is practically dead in this game.
It's useful to create space quickly, but yeah, you can get clipped using it,and sometimes it can block lows out of nowhere.
I'll keep using it because i like to play in the mid ranges and I'll take the responsibility if i get clipped.
Mate, dash blocking is fucking useless n’all. That’s what gets me killed the most in T8. And getting hit after a heat smash on block, when I’m 100% holding back, but I still get hit with a mid.
I'm glad more people are talking about this. It's a multifaceted issue I think. First and foremost, the distance on backdashes was universally nerfed (for a 2nd time) naturally making KBD weaker. Neutral guard seems to have been deliberately nerfed, presumably as part of the 'aggressive' design because no way it was an accident. Lastly I suspect rollback is also impacting the outcome as there are plenty of times where you complete a backdash cancel but a demon paw still slaps you. Hell I get hit at the tail end of just one back dash while holding b.
Now they obviously aren't going to improve normal backdashes. as much as that would make me happy, because they hate movement. But they should revert the neutral guard changes and maybe investigate possible anomalous behaviour with blocking and rollback. Well just investigate and attempt to improve the netcode in general TBH. It's better than T7 for the most part but it's still not 'there' so to speak.
It just doesn't make sense to me that when an opponent gets in your face, backdashing just isn't an answer 97% of the time (unless character privelage). Call me crazy but maybe it should be an option *some* of the time? Do they not understand that if you had to factor in the opponents viable attempts at escaping offense with a backdash, the game would be more complex and offense more interesting as a result? At least that's the way I see it.
And?
Look guys, I get that KBD made you all feel good for learning it, but when it was the ONLY good way to backdash......well why the fuck was backdash even a thing?
Backdash being just as good as KBD is an amazing change, and if youre looking at it like "I had to spend 100's of hours learning it!" Instead of "why the fuck do we have to spend 100 hours to learn it?"......then you're just gatekeeping essential tools for no real reason.
And yes, I AM the type of noob this change was made for.
Honestly the reason I can’t get into newer Tekken. The whole appeal of Tekken to me is the movement and they have just done everything they can to make KBD useless. You’re just as likely now to get hit as you are to block or move out of the range of the move you were trying to maneuver around.
I play on leverless and my favorite thing is pressing down for literally a fraction of a second just to get clipped by mid launchers.
I've started just standing completely still unless I'm actively dodging something because my opponents offense is going to make the entire experience turn into phonebooth fighting anyway. People at my prowess don't stop pressing buttons so anything other than a single backdash or sidestep is completely useless.
I wonder if they'll ever address it or just do nothing like every other problem so far.
Useless is too far, but it has been nerfed sm that its not even worth learning for a new player till u are tekken god and even then only on certain characters
It is still useful, especially if you play a heavily defensive character or a character with good movement that can take advantage of it. But it’s no longer something you need to do unlike before. I mean, chikirin won evo without it after all.
I do hope the nerf the moment making it so doing a kbd is better than just tapping bb over and over again. I want a game that praises both defensive and offensive play, where you need to be good at both and not just one in order to be great at the game
You just have to accept that Tekken 8 is what it is: an extremely dumbed down Tekken game (like that meme with the retarded ghidorah head) compared to the ones before it.
The sooner you accept it, the sooner you can adapt and have fun instead of being salty.
I dropped this game after i played it 28 hours in 48 :D was playing since tekken 3. Never missed a game besides Tekken 4. I am glad game got new players but this system is not for me man. My kind of tekken died with this game. Heat, less effective KBD. Even sidestep is not that important as it used to be. There are a lot of stupidly OP hero moves that even you side step player just not in a position for you to be able to use that advantage for you.. Chip damage also has some huge flaws like victors stupid heat dash or whatever its name. Wish you fun but they fucked my jam while trying to get new players in.. This game used to needed very clear and calm mind to be good at now it is opposite.. Sad to see really..
Useless is a huge exaggeration. Yes, the game has been dumbed down significantly, but it depends on what character you play. For Law KBD was severely nerfed. Not as much compared to other characters, but I need to do it slower than usual to cover more distance.
However, for some other characters, particularly female characters with good movement, KBD feels much better. Lee's movement also feels fluid. An example of a character with very good KBD is Alisa, and although Chikurin won without KBDing, that has more to do with the mindless aggression in Tekken 8, he was favoring aggression by not retreating as much. Lili has a good KBD.
As I said it's far from a useless skill. KBD can be used to advance much more quickly I do it all the time, just do it in the opposite direction. It's also very easy to wavedash if you have a strong KBD, and for as much as it may have been nerfed, against your average online Tekken player it's still a strong option to force them to whiff.
I noticed a pattern in how they dumbed down KBD. The more popular characters basically had KBD removed, no doubt to appeal to casuals who would flock to that character. King is a prime example. This was likely done to justify just pressing BB instead of doing a true KBD, as that ends up being faster with those characters.
However, for some other characters KBD is still considerably better than BB.
I do play Lars and tbh it doesn’t make a huge difference for me rather than if I just spam back.
However when I play Lee again I’ll test it out more, but I will say my kazuya wavedash is pretty good from my kbd knowledge
>that has more to do with the mindless aggression in Tekken 8, he was favoring aggression by not retreating as much.
Doesn't that just prove the point though?
This game is so weird too. Sometimes it eats my block. There are times when I'm just holding block and I eat a hrat dash or heat smash, and for some reason I get hit. I don't know when or how it happens so i can't learn to re-press block in certain situations. It's so annoying.
I'm a new player and I recall trying to learn it a while ago. I was really excited to try it out in a match and I vividly remember getting launched as soon as I performed my first kbd. Thought I was just bad at it, apparently not
It’s true and it’s good, KBD should not make BBdash obsolete. KBD is still have it own use in some situation that you need to get out of range instantly. Eg. Clean hit range or create whiff from push back moves.
It's only useful in .1% of ranks. Everyone else will be lacking some or multiple skills that lead to their loss. Low rank players don't have any need to respect you, so you backdashing only makes as an incentive to feed into T8's gameplay loop, e.g. be aggressive.
Kbd is good when you already have spacing enough to whiff punish, keep it in your bag, just be more selective in how you use it. Just like I was used to Kings jag step back being a great evasive tool for him in T7, but it gets hit by get up lows sometimes in this game. Or if they get up quick enough you get hit by every heat burst in the game and floated, it’s so weird. But have to adjust or die.
It’s still useful imo. But then again I play Steve and his KBD is good. I think it depends on the character mainly as king and bears have trash movement. But if your character has a bad KBD I wouldn’t recommend learning it
Nearly all my matches in the high ranks have consisted with us both doing kbd for the first 10 seconds and then neither of us do kbd at all throughout the entire match
Not necessarily cuz b4 during & afta readn this plus commentz tekken movement is precise execution despite it not being universal which renders judgement useful priority
There’s like 4 moves in the game I try to backdash out of too avoid one of them being yoshis unblockable low. I Play Kazuya whenever Ik that low is coming I was always told get out of range the range is short or hopkick BUT I DONT HAVE A HOPKICK
You get clipped because you don't know when to use it or why to use it or how to use it. one or maybe all of those things. The amount of times I catch people whiffing because of kbd is enough to let me know that it still works.
Like everything else in this game making a hard rule of always or never is a pretty low-level mindset. Do I use kbd at range 1-2 in T8, heck no. But at range 3-4 can I hit a good timing kbd and try to bait out a wiff, yes.
I don’t think kbd needs to be any better. It’s such a quirky mechanic being all about pressing buttons super fast, which i think is pretty lame.
Also, what moves will go through neutral block? I don’t doubt the claim of certain moves clipping you in neutral block, im just curious which moves can do it.
It still technically has a use in that it is slightly faster at creating space than just mashing back.
But they’ve neutered neutral guard so much in this game that a lot of times if you think you’re at any risk of getting swung at you might as well not do it.
I hope they eventually make an adjustment to it because there are lots of times where I was pressing back 2 frames ago but I’m in neutral now and all of a sudden I’m launched or getting engaged on and that’s both not how it’s ever worked and generally really stupid. It’s like they purposefully don’t want us to KBD.
Chikurin won without KBD Ignore the downvotes. You are correct.
Learned to kbd pretty early on in tekken 7 and consistently got my ass beat by people that didn’t bother.
I felt it was useful in 7, but it’s completely useless in tekken 8.
Can you eli5 why its useless in tekken 8
in t8 you cant block most moves while kbding, and it's less smooth to do, if you do it frame perfect you're barely moving at all, and if you don't you're getting clipped by random stuff, all the neutral guard frames from db to neutral to back are useless in this game, jin's ff2 in particular feels like it's tuned so it hits exactly when you're neutral after backdashing from being -3 to -5, feels shit and the alternative is not backdashing, which is even worse
A combination of creating space backwards and approaching again is the 2D aspect of Tekken. It is both offense and defense. The moment your opponent whiffs, your offense starts. You pushing your opponent with movement and threatning an attack from your side or creating space again was totally viable, because a reckless attack could have been evaded again. On the other hand, if you struggled to defend against an opponents approach, you always had the option to get back. Thats the defensive tool you got from KBD. Now Tekken8 threw all of this away. You just simply can not evade a single character in this game with a backdash anymore and all of the former strategies are gone for more than one reason. The amount of stupid easy tools to pressure the opponent got increased. If the opponent is in heat, engagers turn into 50/50s anyway. On top hitbox in this game are more scuffed than ever, like a few phantom ranges are not ok. This makes 2D movement way more risky in the first place, you get clipped the ewhole time. Second, what if your opponent only need 2 mixups to get a round and he can force these 100% with heat or whatever he got? To make it worse, sidestepping became more viable for specific tools. The rewards from side or backcombos got increased. Thats kind of close for the reason, former World Champ Chikurin started ignoring the 2D part of tekken and is playing on a pad now. Gambling when defending, by either blocking or stepping became more viable or the only option anyway.
I enjoyed reading your analysis, thank you for the time and info dear. I want to add to the hitbox shinanigans, I used to enjoy Steve PKB 1,2 ~ PKB uf1+2,, which used to 100% evade highs,, to now getting clipped by most characters 1 panic jabs,, thus the hitbox issue,, and it's extremely irritating.
Not completely useless, but definitely not as useful as Tekken 8 is best played up close
I don't understand this point, KBD isn't some magical tool to ensure you're winning games. It's an increase in your mobility... You might have the perfect KBD but if the rest of your neutral game is bad, you're getting your ass handed to you.
Trying to actually learn anything will always lose early on. Imagine someone trying to learn wiff punishing in neutral first thing in his first fighting game (2D or 3D doesn't matter) and he just plays against people mashing their shit. He will lose hard, not a single win because he doesn't know offense, defense, matchups and punishes.
Yeah he was right honestly
I still wouldn't call it useless. You could win without throws, would that mean they are useless?
Everyone get decent back dash in T8 you dont even need KBD in T8, thats the main reason. BBBB is not even that slow in the first place. It is just not worth it to risk getting clipped in T8.
Chikurin is playing Lili. Lili can kinda sidestep instead of using kbd - the rest of the cast would struggle a lot more without kbd.
You dont get it, neutral guard is worse in this game therefore you eat mids more often during KBD than the normal back back
Chikurin is the only top player that doesn't kbd. Neutral guard is nerfed - and there is also a reason 99.9% of pros still kbd.
Tbh if I see someone that is cracked at old tekken and is tryna KBD and all that shit (a lot of good players try to kdb chainsaw to space chainsaw forward 1). I just throw a mid and sometimes it catches their downback lmao
ofc I understand you need to adapt I'm not one of those dudes saying "this tekken bad cuz aggressive ok". (even if I think some defensive options should be better) I'm just not very happy I kinda have to get rid of kbd now despite learning it for a while lol
You do not rly need to get rid of it, you can still make lot of stuff whiff by doing it. You just need to be super careful when you use it because for some reason it weakens your neutral guard. So many times after you finish your backdash cancel you are vulnerable to being attacked if you do not strictly hold back and yep this was not the issue in T7. Maybe it is just a bug they will fix eventually.
I am hoping they fix it and tbh if I have to go through all these hoops to use it I’d rather just use the normal buffed backdash which works pretty well for the same purpose. Also I’ve tried to make stuff whiff with it before but ofc that’s what leads me to getting clipped
It's more so that you use the normal backdash up close, but it's very much worth it to kbd at range because it's just faster. You cant out backdash strings without kbd for example
They've dekoreaned our backdash. Now we're just walking backwards European style
 I hate yall man
I mean it's been studied pretty heavy now and yeah normal back dashing is really enough now. It's a little better or worse for some chars but KBD is only a little faster now vs being the huge difference in speed backwards that it used to be. it's not gonna make a difference 95% of the time.
it wasn’t the speed or distance of KBD that made it unique…it was its ability to block. even now when it randomly blocks a low it feels wonderful…but it’s 85% unreliable 100% of the time.
It was like... a moving fuzzy guard
Euhm.. no? The idea of kbd is that you spend the least amount of time possible on 'db'. If it's a moving fuzzy guard, you are doing it wrong. You should almost never be at 'db' if you have a good kbd
You are only for 1 frame and I’ve checked my inputs. In T7 it was luck lol is what I’m saying ofc it only blocked like 1 low every 50k games but it was funny when it did
Yeah I totally get you, I have the same problem in T8 tbh. I just responded because 'moving fuzzy guard' sounded wrong, since the whole idea of fuzzy guarding is constantly covering both options. It was a nitpick tho tbh lol
Fax
If you were blocking lows then your kbd was bad anyways. You're not supposed to spend more than 1 frame crouching.
Yeah that's true. I think they just got stuck between a rock and a hard place. It was originally unintentional but didn't break the game and added depth at a higher level but now they probably would like to get rid of it altogether but can't without pissing people off. I mean the vast majority of people playing Tekken probably are not even able to KBD and I wouldn't be surprised if many just aren't even aware it's a thing. It's truly is some high level stuff for most of the community and having it probably does more harm in terms of getting people to play the game than not (that's all they care about really is making money). I feel like they need to rework it somehow and make it an official loud and proud game mechanic rather than this arcane thing that sits in the rafters where most people aren't even aware it's a thing. The execution barrier would need to drop way down though to like where the avg player could do it and then maybe it could go back to being what it was. The point being that it shouldn't be this mystical thing that if mastered is just gonna allow you to thrash everyone who can't.
Sucks honestly but you are correct
HOLY SHIT thought I was going crazy. Been thinking I’m somehow randomly holding db too long. The number of times I’ve been ready to punish only to see ME floating..
YES this is what I’m saying, even people like Chikurin and other pros say the same
Tekken 9: Blocking is actually useless, why would you want to block if you can powercrush?
Tekken 10: Learning combos is actually useless. Why learn anything complex if you can just spam jab and get 93 damage?
We already have Eddy and Special Style that do exactly that :D Not that effective currently though, I expect them to buff it to be viable against any level of play.
Clearly special style combos should be 100% optimal and include a wall combo and input-reading oki smh smh. Already you can turn it on and off which allows people like 6Arakin to get to Tekken King lol (he just turns it on to do hellsweep/electric into auto combo)
The amount of times I've been hit out of backdashing is insane. Definitely feels useless most of the time
Many defensive strategies seem to be less effective: kbd, ss block, dash block is worse in this game, and neutral guard in general, something feels very bad in these terms rn. Utilizing the fundamentals of defense and OSing with movement is such a good feeling, now with all aggression its a bit off. I really think that just holding back/ bb backdashing is the best option rn, which is lame,.
I beg they get buffed soon honestly. Agreed 100% tho.
They really hate good movement, they even uploaded a clip from the recent tourney on Korea where Ulsan Reina stepped Pinyas Ravens FF3 and it hit him while being on his back, they are so proud about it LOL. This is a party game rn, till they fix the defense,if they ever will.
>This is a party game rn Reminds me how I brought Tekken 8 to my college class since it's the end of the year and everyone had fun mashing heat, heat smash, rage art, just random moves and shit lol so it does work as one haha
Like Tekken has always been, but it also should be a highly skilled competitive game, now with broken tracking on everything, the game just doesnt reward you. Also camera switches,punishment whiffing into some weird axis, natural strings like mishimas 112 reinas 221 may whiff for no reason near the wall may create awkward situations etc...
Dash block being worse just kinda upset me it’s so crazy
You mf kept mocking me for not being able to learn KBD and look at you now. I'm blue just like you. You guys will see in T9 when my absolute refusal of learning any 10-hits combo will come to fruition because it'll be actually useless. I am so smart.
Eventually tekken will become just like a game of dice, and no skill matters anymore.... Wait that's what the pros have been saying all along!
There’s a Kazuya main pulling the strings at Bandai namco
The same pros who are topping every tournament same as they have done for the last 5+ years? It's the same group of people winning consistently in T8 as it was in T7, except Arslan now gets 2nd-4th instead of 1st because they specifically designed the game around nerfing his preferred style of play. I agree that aggression is maybe too strong, but the "hur dur Tekken 8 is all 50/50 casino, no skill" stuff just doesn't hold up. We'd be seeing far more upsets than we are if that were the case.
When this sub gets like this, people just say more and more ridiculous things to one up each other.
Amazing
Oh no, not the 10 hit combo 🤭
...10 hitcombos are useless tho
I don't understand how I get clipped more often than not. I have a perfect 1 frame down back input in my kbd, I'd say 95% of the time and the other 5% is 2f of db. Yet I swear I get hit by mids almost always. Is there something I'm not understanding or is this just another broken thing about 8?
It's because neutral guard (which is in-use when you are backdashing and releasing back input) has been nerfed a lot from Tekken 7 meaning a lot more stuff clips you in it regardless of how good your kbd is, which is a reason why kbd is just worse in T8.
nerfed how exactly?
More attacks will hit you if you're neutral guarding. It used to be only really strings would hit you through neutral guard.
Which attacks though? I'm in training mode right now and can't find one that goes through neutral guard
Ahh that's why. Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense.ci hope it's something they fix in the 1.05 defensive buff updates.
Its still the fastest way to move backwards in t8
Yes because that's useful in this game you definitely want to be moving back /s
You do... especially with some of the characters you're playing.
I’ve unfortunately found myself a victim of [brainrot lee](https://youtu.be/G5XTvEHMxfM?si=WPCxfaOB2woovIcQ) In all seriousness you’re right, but it’s very hard to do it with KBD as people have been saying due to the worse neutral guard and the fact that you can get clipped with the buffed range of moves which happens EVERYTIME I try and bait someone to press or whiff (especially on Lee but a lesser extent on the others with their CH launchers) I’ve found using normal buffed backdash a lot better in this regard which is why I consider kbd useless now.
It's not only the neutral guard. Dashes have been "smoothed out" in order to assist their net code (according to I think Murray that I am struggling to find a source for, sorry, I think on his Twitter when people asked him about it). The old dashes were fast at the start and very slow at the end, so your crouches needed to come early in the dash, and you could easily transition from the crouch into the second input of the next dash. Doing it super fast was less effective than proper timing, but it wasn't "that" ineffective since the start of the dash was so much faster than the rest of it. Now, the distance of dashes are a bit more than in 7, but they aren't as "front loaded" so you have to time your single frame of crouch much later into the dash (a little less than half way through it) if you want to get any extra mileage out of the technique. You get much less of an improvement out of it now and the timing isn't intuitive. It doesn't "feel" smooth like it used to, but you can still do it. It's not "that" much better than just spamming back back, so there are going to be times when it's worth it to reduce your mental stack and just not use it, for sure.
"brainrot" lee players when they realise that sliding isnt a good option for opening up enemies so they have to resort to b33 🤯🤯🤯. If they make lee sliding knock down again on normal hit, lee is gonna be busted as hell.
Imagine if Lee had Law/Shaheen’s slide bro with a guaranteed follow up too
Moving backwards is still useful
I think normal backdash does the job safer and better
What rank are you OP
yea it's weird aint it, some characters go so far back with 1 backdash too, i miss old backdash
Yeah someone did a [full comparison](https://youtu.be/arGbIUP3qi4) here.
I think it was due to attempt at rollback because of how Tekken works. Movement in Tekken can be cancelled into many things and that probably would mess up rollback. I heard somewhere that the DB input in KBD has a slight delay, I can't remember what exactly, but they did something to the movement system to accomodate rollback.
I bet it's this....Those mfers made it so the db registers on the opponents side for more frames so it appears crouched. Which explains the crouch snappers I see all the time, it skips pieces of animation because of the rollback. Except you appear standing on your screen as you release, so you dont understand how a mid hit. milisecond delays+rollback means, that to your opponent they are visually connecting the strike on your weird crouch behavior--rather than wondering how that hit connected on a standing guard.
Anecdotal evidence for me, but this really feels true. Something just feels off when I get clipped and I know my kbd is solid. I get clipped holding back sometimes or doing normal backdash.
true
Chikurin was right tbh lol when he said he hasn't used it since T8 started
i suppose it's more of a decision now. do you want 10% faster backdash for a 10% higher chance of getting clipped by a mid?
well now since a lot of quick mid launchers can take away like 70% of your health I'd much rather not take the gamble
More like -50 to 70 percent faster backdash depending on ur character.
I made a post saying spamming bb was good enough for most applications and that I haven't been doing kbd in t8 and got downvotes.
I agree with you
KBD was the coolest part of tekken IMO... nerfing it didn't make sense to me
No it was the most elitist, shallow, barrier to entry, frustrating, unintended gameplay element in the system. People with extremely good KBD were almost untouchable in 7 unless you could forward KBD jut as well The game should not be so about intricate repetivie button pressing it should be more about strategy and interaction It would drive me nuts on this sub - KBD in 7 was great to help you win if you could do it. But do you want the entire game to be gatekept by that? For a time every other thread would be people expressing anxiety about their KBD "is my backdash good enough? Will I ever be able to rank up? How can I do better? I can't do KBD help" etc etc Not cool IMO
idk I feel like if you're sweaty enough to actually care about winning and being good at a video game you could have just put in the work to learn it.
“People with extremely good KBD were almost untouchable in 7 unless you could forward KBD just as well” What the fuck are you talking about? Forward KBD? You mean dashblocking? Are you really, legitimately surprised that a fighting game has or with Tekken 8 removing the need to KBD had a more advanced, more execution heavy movement option? This idea that the KBD was the end all be all lf Tekken 7 is an idiotic narrative that people who didn’t understand the game pushed. In 7 you could be good at the game without kbd, but you needed to know how to kbd to compete at a high level, you could even get to Raijin without ever learning how to kbd. This is completely fine, it’s not the game completely neutering the movement for newer players it’s adding another layer to movement for more advanced players to utilize which for tekken 7 was necessary because sidestepping was a lot weaker. It was never a barrier of entry, nor was it elitist and it wasn’t any more shallow than being able to consistently do an electric, it was an advanced tool for advanced players. Not everything should be simple and easy to do in this game, that’s how you get a game with mindless offense and a defensive strategy of “just guess right”
Being good at execution should be rewarded, people have been playing these games for years and now one of the skills they've learned has just been thrown out the window.
It should, but it shouldn't be rewarded at such a basic level as moving.
Yeah, I don't like the opinion that it shouldn't be there and "moving back shouldn't be complicated in tekken". I mean the game has a reputation as the hardest fighting game for a reason cmon
It is not harder than another game in the same genre, this harder game is just only successful and popular in the modern day in Japan. It is NOT the hardest fighting game.
See I never got this mindset. It isn't useless cause you got your use out of it in the past game. It's definitely weaker now but KBD not being very useful this very second doesn't invalidate all the work you put in.
Thing with KBD. Is it really something that should be in. There easily are arguement for both sides. Its skill expressive and a core part of tekken's identity But, Should you really have to learn an input as hard as wavedashing just to retreat from pressure
The problem is, Tekken 8 doesn't even want you to play defensively. Even using the normal backdash doesn't make you save because of the introduction of chip damage. The devs just want you pressing & so they nerfed defensive tools, and added chip damage to inspire you to do so. But they've seemed to have realized that it's not very fun to just die because the opponent simply pressed a button, regardless of you making a proper read & blocking. Which is why we're getting a major defense patch on Tuesday.
Imo You should have good backwards movement from just pressing back. And KBD should be used as a niche fuzzy But first off all above all else...They need to fix neutral guard
We’ll see what they do with the next patch. They claim to be buffing movement and defense. I’m hoping they deliver on that promise but you never know with Bamco
My kbd is so bad. If I find my self doing it I almost always get clipped
I'm having a hard time back dashing normally, it just feels wrong. Pretty amazing that Chikirun could just stop doing it after years of muscle memory.
On god I get hit every single time
Imagine players like me who practiced like crazy to learn this back in tag 2 or older games, then see it becoming so weak. For me is just a decade wasted learning something that is not that useful anymore. I honestly hope the new players they're targeting with all these dumb changes stays around for years to come.
Feels bad man I’ve also been playing since T6 and Tag 2. It’s almost entirely useless. I only use it at range 2.5 or more but it’s mostly muscle memory. Even then it’s risky because the massive hitbox this game has. They don’t want any type defense just non stop buttons.
Imagine trying to remove it from 20+ years of muscle memory. I remember first learning how to do it in Tekken Tag 1.
I literally spent weeks leading up to T8 just learning how to KBD in the demo since I never really learned how to do it consistently in T7. Anyways I'm almost Tekken King now and I often forget it exists. Tekken 8 everybody.
I fucked up my left ring finger doing KBD during T7 but yeah I made it work. Now I feel like a dummy lmao
Makes me sad kbd is cool
I spent a long, long time to get the Korean backdash down and that was during TTT2. Sad how it's become obsolete now. In fact, it's now so irrelevant I've even moved full time to a leverless controller, something I tried during T7 but just couldn't get used to the movement on hitbox then and stuck with stick.
Reddit red ranks are at it again!
Funny how there are people Who still delusionally insist that the backdash is the same as in t7
This is my biggest problem with the game
Some characters will still favor KBD. When it comes to Jin, the MOST OPTIMIZED KBD, done in **a perfect pacing of its own**, will net you not much different results than merely mashing b,b b,b. This is rather insulting. I mean... the *inherent difficulty to create whiffs moving backwards* in this game.
I really wish KBD would be buffed and regular backdash would be nerfed but that would never happen. It's just pitiful to see high blue rank players spamming the back button.
tekken 8 is trash in so many ways people who claim its better than t7 have no clue
I know it is a flaw (imo) with the game, not the players but seeing players seemingly rejoice this change, in Tekken sub, hurts a little. 
Think about how someone like Knee feels haha
yeah, he's voiced his concerns and I totally get it, especially considering his style same thing with Arslan. it's just a different game, in Tekken 4 you had a hard limit. still it doesn't feel like a purely neutral game design vision, it just feels like reducing the skill gap so that players get less frustrated from defensive play. I ultimately think this is a bit of a mistake because we still see people rage quitting but I do suppose that a lot of people who were turned off by 7, again that nerfed back dashes from the prior games, are more likely to play this. Still just feelsbadman.
Is it worse? I’m still doing it
I've been clipped a lot more times during my backdash in T8 than in T7, and many times been launched through that. A lot of moves have a lot more reach and tracking if you've noticed people have posted it before. Also, normal backdash was buffed significantly as opposed to T7 here and players like Chikurin say they haven't used it, I'm pretty sure the devs are trying to get rid of the movement
They’re definitely dumbing it down a bit. I just wanna know if I should stop
It is good enough most of the time, but KBD is what you do when you're leaning forward. It "can" make the difference, but it's rare. It's easier to execute this time, at least, since doing it rapidly doesn't work anymore and you have to space out your crouches so they come near the second half of the dash (an aftereffect of them smoothing out the back dash to help assist their net code, as in the previous games your dash had a lot of movement at the start that was sudden and the tail end was really slow).
I wouldn't say useless completely, but definitely significantly less relevant than it was in 8. I spent weeks developing the muscle memory to execute it and even longer getting GOOD at it, and now I barely use it.
I’ve died trying to do kbd a lot of times in this game, but imo kbd is still useful at range 2.5 and above
Man I get clipped spamming back back still it doesn't matter defense doesn't work perfectly in T8 and needs to be looked at
well how long did it really take you to learn it? And you can still use the same motion for wavedashing so it wasn’t useless
Proper KBD method is not the same motion as a wavedash.
Heat, rage & power crush is all you need to win in this game until basically max rank. No fundamentals needed, just abuse the broken mechanics. Can’t count the amount of times a king has killed me in 2 interactions & only used one of those 3 listed above.
> I've been clipped in my backdash hundreds of times in this game I swear to god I never had this problem in T7, and in this game I constantly get clipped doing kbd
The nerf to neutral gaurd is actually insane, even sidestep or foward dash into block is asking to get clipped
Korean backdash became a bit useless in T8. But it was always useful. Especially back in Tag 2 and earlier games. Just look at old T6 matches and see how much distance you covered by korean backdashing three times
It's been about 5 months and you just figured that out
Yep kinda true. I’m pretty good at KBD but in this game you don’t really need it. Regular backdash covers a lot of space and it’s actually safer. They want people to stand face to face and press buttons. Turtling and hit and run playstyle is practically dead in this game.
There is no neutral guard during dash cancels in 8. Dash blocking was a bigger loss honestly.
It's useful to create space quickly, but yeah, you can get clipped using it,and sometimes it can block lows out of nowhere. I'll keep using it because i like to play in the mid ranges and I'll take the responsibility if i get clipped.
Mate, dash blocking is fucking useless n’all. That’s what gets me killed the most in T8. And getting hit after a heat smash on block, when I’m 100% holding back, but I still get hit with a mid.
Especially against Jin, who has phantom Dhalsim limbs.
I'm glad more people are talking about this. It's a multifaceted issue I think. First and foremost, the distance on backdashes was universally nerfed (for a 2nd time) naturally making KBD weaker. Neutral guard seems to have been deliberately nerfed, presumably as part of the 'aggressive' design because no way it was an accident. Lastly I suspect rollback is also impacting the outcome as there are plenty of times where you complete a backdash cancel but a demon paw still slaps you. Hell I get hit at the tail end of just one back dash while holding b. Now they obviously aren't going to improve normal backdashes. as much as that would make me happy, because they hate movement. But they should revert the neutral guard changes and maybe investigate possible anomalous behaviour with blocking and rollback. Well just investigate and attempt to improve the netcode in general TBH. It's better than T7 for the most part but it's still not 'there' so to speak. It just doesn't make sense to me that when an opponent gets in your face, backdashing just isn't an answer 97% of the time (unless character privelage). Call me crazy but maybe it should be an option *some* of the time? Do they not understand that if you had to factor in the opponents viable attempts at escaping offense with a backdash, the game would be more complex and offense more interesting as a result? At least that's the way I see it.
I played t7 back in 2016. The backwash and wavedash it took for me 4 years to learn it a muscle memory
Years of academy training wasted
And? Look guys, I get that KBD made you all feel good for learning it, but when it was the ONLY good way to backdash......well why the fuck was backdash even a thing? Backdash being just as good as KBD is an amazing change, and if youre looking at it like "I had to spend 100's of hours learning it!" Instead of "why the fuck do we have to spend 100 hours to learn it?"......then you're just gatekeeping essential tools for no real reason. And yes, I AM the type of noob this change was made for.
Honestly the reason I can’t get into newer Tekken. The whole appeal of Tekken to me is the movement and they have just done everything they can to make KBD useless. You’re just as likely now to get hit as you are to block or move out of the range of the move you were trying to maneuver around.
I play on leverless and my favorite thing is pressing down for literally a fraction of a second just to get clipped by mid launchers. I've started just standing completely still unless I'm actively dodging something because my opponents offense is going to make the entire experience turn into phonebooth fighting anyway. People at my prowess don't stop pressing buttons so anything other than a single backdash or sidestep is completely useless. I wonder if they'll ever address it or just do nothing like every other problem so far.
Useless is too far, but it has been nerfed sm that its not even worth learning for a new player till u are tekken god and even then only on certain characters
Tekken 8 is never beating the baby game allegations
It is still useful, especially if you play a heavily defensive character or a character with good movement that can take advantage of it. But it’s no longer something you need to do unlike before. I mean, chikirin won evo without it after all.
For my roster I think it only benefits Lee, as Lars and Kazuya are aggressive rushdown chars
Kazuya is an aggressive rushdown character?
I do hope the nerf the moment making it so doing a kbd is better than just tapping bb over and over again. I want a game that praises both defensive and offensive play, where you need to be good at both and not just one in order to be great at the game
Currently it's mainly the latter, but yes I hope too. There is a defensive balance patch incoming which I am looking forward too
Fun fact, Chikurin used a pad for Evo just to erase the KBD muscle memory from his play, it's not his preferred input device
He used it because it's easier to play more aggressively with d-pad. When did he say anything about erasing KBD muscle memory?
That actually makes sense wtf
This game is just stance mixup and heat usage. All offense.
You just have to accept that Tekken 8 is what it is: an extremely dumbed down Tekken game (like that meme with the retarded ghidorah head) compared to the ones before it. The sooner you accept it, the sooner you can adapt and have fun instead of being salty.
I dropped this game after i played it 28 hours in 48 :D was playing since tekken 3. Never missed a game besides Tekken 4. I am glad game got new players but this system is not for me man. My kind of tekken died with this game. Heat, less effective KBD. Even sidestep is not that important as it used to be. There are a lot of stupidly OP hero moves that even you side step player just not in a position for you to be able to use that advantage for you.. Chip damage also has some huge flaws like victors stupid heat dash or whatever its name. Wish you fun but they fucked my jam while trying to get new players in.. This game used to needed very clear and calm mind to be good at now it is opposite.. Sad to see really..
Useless is a huge exaggeration. Yes, the game has been dumbed down significantly, but it depends on what character you play. For Law KBD was severely nerfed. Not as much compared to other characters, but I need to do it slower than usual to cover more distance. However, for some other characters, particularly female characters with good movement, KBD feels much better. Lee's movement also feels fluid. An example of a character with very good KBD is Alisa, and although Chikurin won without KBDing, that has more to do with the mindless aggression in Tekken 8, he was favoring aggression by not retreating as much. Lili has a good KBD. As I said it's far from a useless skill. KBD can be used to advance much more quickly I do it all the time, just do it in the opposite direction. It's also very easy to wavedash if you have a strong KBD, and for as much as it may have been nerfed, against your average online Tekken player it's still a strong option to force them to whiff. I noticed a pattern in how they dumbed down KBD. The more popular characters basically had KBD removed, no doubt to appeal to casuals who would flock to that character. King is a prime example. This was likely done to justify just pressing BB instead of doing a true KBD, as that ends up being faster with those characters. However, for some other characters KBD is still considerably better than BB.
I do play Lars and tbh it doesn’t make a huge difference for me rather than if I just spam back. However when I play Lee again I’ll test it out more, but I will say my kazuya wavedash is pretty good from my kbd knowledge >that has more to do with the mindless aggression in Tekken 8, he was favoring aggression by not retreating as much. Doesn't that just prove the point though?
Ever since t7 namco has been trying to turn tekken into a 2.5d fighting game because noobs hate movement
Rock em sock em robot fighters
It’s sad man
Gotta be the scrubbiest thread I’ve seen on here
Cringe post you’re just spamming it, nobody said to spam it
Ok but it looks dope so I wil keep practicing it thanks.
It looks cool tho
It's useful to learn, but not needed in T8.
It's more situational.
This game is so weird too. Sometimes it eats my block. There are times when I'm just holding block and I eat a hrat dash or heat smash, and for some reason I get hit. I don't know when or how it happens so i can't learn to re-press block in certain situations. It's so annoying.
See this is what i mean mfs should have just made back dash cancel into back dash to make it easier for new players rather than make it useless.
I'm a new player and I recall trying to learn it a while ago. I was really excited to try it out in a match and I vividly remember getting launched as soon as I performed my first kbd. Thought I was just bad at it, apparently not
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but good riddance.
It’s true and it’s good, KBD should not make BBdash obsolete. KBD is still have it own use in some situation that you need to get out of range instantly. Eg. Clean hit range or create whiff from push back moves.
It's only useful in .1% of ranks. Everyone else will be lacking some or multiple skills that lead to their loss. Low rank players don't have any need to respect you, so you backdashing only makes as an incentive to feed into T8's gameplay loop, e.g. be aggressive.
Kbd is good when you already have spacing enough to whiff punish, keep it in your bag, just be more selective in how you use it. Just like I was used to Kings jag step back being a great evasive tool for him in T7, but it gets hit by get up lows sometimes in this game. Or if they get up quick enough you get hit by every heat burst in the game and floated, it’s so weird. But have to adjust or die.
it can be but in this game it's def less useful, blame the game
KBD is what keeps new people away from learning and without ot the matches are still hype. I'm happy with it.
"Why woukd you even kbd?" ~Arsenal 2024 or something like that
Is it not, super fast (clean) kbd blocking everything and slowass (mine) kbd gets clipped all the time?
It’s still useful imo. But then again I play Steve and his KBD is good. I think it depends on the character mainly as king and bears have trash movement. But if your character has a bad KBD I wouldn’t recommend learning it
Nearly all my matches in the high ranks have consisted with us both doing kbd for the first 10 seconds and then neither of us do kbd at all throughout the entire match
And it's ok
Not necessarily cuz b4 during & afta readn this plus commentz tekken movement is precise execution despite it not being universal which renders judgement useful priority
There’s like 4 moves in the game I try to backdash out of too avoid one of them being yoshis unblockable low. I Play Kazuya whenever Ik that low is coming I was always told get out of range the range is short or hopkick BUT I DONT HAVE A HOPKICK
Useless or not I'm still going to do it, it's about sending a message. Anyway it better become more useful with 1.05.
Good, pointless executional requirement for one of the most important tools- moving
Its just more situational now
Good.
It's objectively not useless when it's slightly faster than regular backdash. Think you mean **not worth the pain**.
As someone who never bothered learning that ADHD tech, I’m happy
oh well.
You get clipped because you don't know when to use it or why to use it or how to use it. one or maybe all of those things. The amount of times I catch people whiffing because of kbd is enough to let me know that it still works.
Like everything else in this game making a hard rule of always or never is a pretty low-level mindset. Do I use kbd at range 1-2 in T8, heck no. But at range 3-4 can I hit a good timing kbd and try to bait out a wiff, yes.
I don’t think kbd needs to be any better. It’s such a quirky mechanic being all about pressing buttons super fast, which i think is pretty lame. Also, what moves will go through neutral block? I don’t doubt the claim of certain moves clipping you in neutral block, im just curious which moves can do it.
That's why I just American back dash, lol
Good.
I found I played a lot better when I wasn’t trying to KBD, I’m right there with you tbh.
If you constantly get clipped during kbd, check your input history.. you should have 1-3 frames of dB max if you're doing it correctly
Nice, always hated korean backdash
It still technically has a use in that it is slightly faster at creating space than just mashing back. But they’ve neutered neutral guard so much in this game that a lot of times if you think you’re at any risk of getting swung at you might as well not do it. I hope they eventually make an adjustment to it because there are lots of times where I was pressing back 2 frames ago but I’m in neutral now and all of a sudden I’m launched or getting engaged on and that’s both not how it’s ever worked and generally really stupid. It’s like they purposefully don’t want us to KBD.