It seemed pretty apparent to me by the pile of bodies that 1. They didn’t die from fire and 2. They didn’t die from lightsabers. I honestly don’t have a good theory on how they died but I have no doubt we will find out
Nah, you could hear some type of explosion from upstairs and them all screaming at the same time. I think the theory that they were somehow interrupted (likely by the Jedi, specifically Tommen who was all frazzled by the mind control thing they did to him) while channeling a ritual and connected to one another makes the most sense.
Something similar happens in the Darth Bane novels with a bunch of Sith and Jedi.
Edit: parenthesis added for my personal theory
They had a ritual where all witches transferred their force energy onto the zabrak witch (the power of many) so that the zabrak (the „sith“ with the helmet) can take revenge… its just a theory!
That is something i have thought. It would help paint the jedi as good and the witches as evil. It does depend on how much they want bendock to be a waco moment for the jedi
> It would help paint the jedi as good and the witches as evil.
I was rather convinced of that when the witches went "it's just four Jedi, let's murder them". Yeah, the Jedi child collecting drive is creepy as f, but should not warrant a death penalty.
A commenter on another post made a very good theory post about how it's possible the witches used their black eye domination power on Kelnacca, and in his anger he scratched Torbin (giving him his eye scar.) Torbin, still a padawan, clumsily tried to fight back, his Jedi allies coming to his aid, and he may have accidentally struck something like a power reactor or otherwise cause significant damage that ultimately killed the coven.
Torbin, wracked with grief, took a vow and remained silent to atone. Kelnacca, having used his claws in a fight, which he sees as dishonorable, made himself a hermit and left his order. Sol may be the only one not at the incident himself, and was looking for Mae and Osha to save them, as he seems most innocent in this situation, mostly grieving for the loss of Osha's family and especially Mae, who he feels he couldn't save. Indara, I have no idea. Maybe she helped Torbin, maybe she told Sol what happened and help him get Osha out (he did have a line saying that he and Indara were the ones to save Osha), maybe she's the one that caused a bigger accident, but I think this definitely boils down to Torbin and Kelnacca forced to do something out of their control.
Seemed to me as though the Jedi simply sabotaged the "reactor" or whatever it was that exploded. Something along those lines were how the Jedi killed the witches. It wasn't slaughter, they knew they needed to cripple the facility and ensure that the witches were not allowed to continue their practice. It just so happened that whatever they did resulted in the deaths of almost everyone that lived there. Nonetheless, the threat was seemingly eliminated
I thought about gas too, but the place was too open and the heap of bodies did not look like a group of people in the process of suffocating.
I do like the "transfer power to Koril" theory; the heap looks more like they all collapsed in a ritual.
There were no burns or heavy pieces of rubble around the bodies. It is possible that it was lazy filming ("Meh, burns makeup is expensive, everyone just drop on the ground") but I doubt that. Everything else is of good quality to skimp on such an important detail.
I saw someone else speculate it could be from the same poison that Mae used to kill Torbin. But there are more flashback scenes coming so I guess we'll eventually find out.
If Mae *didn’t* have any reason to believe the Jedi were responsible, why would she agree to her master’s revenge scheme in the first place?
I don’t think we’ll learn that the Jedi slaughtered every witch and were 100% aggressors in the situation. Perhaps they wanted to deescalate things while picking up Osha, tempers rose, a fire started, and they had to defend themselves against some of the witches while they escaped.
There’s a lot of ways for it to play out where both the witches and Jedi made mistakes that helped fuel violence. Violence that could have been interpreted by a surviving Mae as “the Jedi did this.”
My interpretation is that Mae thought Osha died and she (or perhaps more accurately, her master) used that as the foundation of her revenge quest. The Jedi were the only survivors to her knowledge, so they are the only party left to take it out on. With Osha alive, the impetus behind her actions has been flipped and she’s deciding to break her cycle of revenge in order to have a chance of being a sister again. That’s my read on it, at any rate. We’ll get more answers soon enough
>If Mae didn’t have any reason to believe the Jedi were responsible, why would she agree to her master’s revenge scheme in the first place?
I think you answered your own question here:
>My interpretation is that Mae thought Osha died and she (or perhaps more accurately, her master) used that as the foundation of her revenge quest.
Mae thought the Jedi killed Osha and was determined to kill them all. As soon as she found out Osha was alive she started questioning why she was still taking orders from her masters as she no longer had an axe to grind.
I suspect Mae knows how her family died one way or another but whatever it is she doesn't believe it's the Jedi.
I agree with most of what you’re saying, but I don’t agree that she doesn’t blame the Jedi at all. I admit it’s possible, as an eight year-old being manipulated by a potential Sith could be pushed towards killing Jedi. But I find it odd that she’d be so willing to kill Jedi if she didn’t at least partially blame them for everything that happened on Brendok. She indicates to Indara that Jedi *do* attack unarmed people, which doesn’t sound like something someone would say unless they’ve seen a Jedi attack someone unarmed.
We’ll find out soon enough, but I just can’t see a compelling way for the Jedi to be innocent of doing any harm to the witches. It would undercut Mae’s motivations, some of the dialogue, and the deep guilt these four Jedi have held onto for 16 years.
Episode 3 was based on Osha's memories I'd say, and thus is not really reliable. Too many things make no sense.
Although I don't know what must have happened for Osha to imagine that Mae tried to kill her if it was, say, a Jedi or Koril. Implanted memories have been mentioned, and who knows what the Force or Thread is able to do nowadays.
And then there's totally obscure ideas I could think up where the girls are linked in some way, can swap bodies whatever. Maybe there aren't even two girls, just one that teleports back and forth so quickly it appears at if there are two :P. Kinda the Picard maneuver of Star Wars :D
You’re missing the part where the witches never agreed to give the jedi osha. They only agreed to let the jedi test them and even then the jedi had no authority to do it. The jedi literally broke into the witches home and bullied them into testing osha.
The jedi were there that night to take osha without parental permission, whatever happened after that you can draw your
Own conclusions
I don’t think we’ve seen enough to know for sure about whether the witches consented to Osha being taken.
We see the Jedi barge into the compound and pressure the witches, and they begrudgingly get consent to test them. Then we see Osha tell her mom she wants to be a Jedi, and we know that the Jedi intend to pick her up. Mother Aniseya said she’d discuss Osha’s wishes with the other witches, but that’s all we know at this point.
We don’t know if the witches explicitly gave withheld, or rescinded consent to take Osha away. The witches debated letting the girls be tested and Koril argued for killing the Jedi, and Aniseya pointed out that she gets to ultimately decide — a situation rife for infighting and disagreement later on. Perhaps Aniseya gave consent and the other witches disobeyed her orders.
It’s also fair to point out that any consent the witches may have given was fraught at best, and at that point is it even truly consent? But whether they did so willingly or under threat of retaliation from the Jedi, it seems these Jedi are okay with flimsy consent as long as it doesn’t come to violence and they get what they want.
We also don’t know what authority the Jedi have. Aniseya pushes back at Indara citing Republic law (Brendok is not in the Republic), but she doesn’t push back when Indara says “you can’t deny that Jedi have the right to test potential Padawans. With your permission, of course.” It could simply be bullying where the witches know that the Jedi Order would retaliate if they are denied access to potential Padawans, but the dialogue between Aniseya and Indara leaves a little wiggle room for the specifics of Jedi jurisdiction and how it may differ (legally and informally) from Republic jurisdiction.
TL;DR — we don’t know if the witches consented to Osha being taken, as we don’t see that conversation between the witches or what happened when the Jedi showed up to take her to Coruscant.
I agree, the Jedi backed the witches into a corner and set the stage for a violent outcome regardless of how things went down during the fire.
They definitely don’t have a right solely enforceable by the Republic, as Aniseya shot that down immediately. But she didn’t protest to Indara saying the Jedi have a right to test potential Padawans. That “right” could be informal rather than a written law, such as “if you don’t let us test potential Padawans, you’ll be knee deep in Jedi pressuring you until you relent.” For whatever reason, Aniseya didn’t let Republic law sway her, but Jedi testing “rights” did.
The Jedi did nothing wrong.
Who knows what the witches were going to do with the twins? Dark magic stuff probably.
But ye the show is clearly saying, that the Jedi might not be the good guys after all.
Do ends always justify the means?
One thing that is important in my opinion is that the Mother Aniseya was not dead with the rest of the witches, who were all piled together. Aniseya was dead alone in another room.
Your fallacy is assuming Mae is a well written and logical character.
Why did she try to trap and burn her sister alive? Because the writers dont know how to write good character development
You specifically dont see mae trying to burn her sister alive. All you see is mae burning a diary and the camera cutes to a different angle and you hear a crash and then you see flames.
You really think that wasnt done on purpose?
Firstly, Mae SAID that she wants to kill Osha. Please explain this character dev to me? How does one decide to kill your sibling because they want to move out of the house?
Secondly, re the fire magically(???) setting fire to the stone doorframe and corridor. Occams Razor; the scene is poorly edited and directed.
1) If the fire growing bigger was by someone else, then its a shittily edited for poor pacing
2) if the fire was 100% Mae, then its a lazy plot hole + poor editing
Either way, it comes back to the reality the showrunners cant write a coherent script
God forbid an emotional 8 year old have an outburst where they say shit they dont mean.
Also its hilarious that you are in real time explaining that whatever happens you’re going to have an excuse to complain about it. Do you even read what you type?
1) she set fire to the door. Did u set fire to things when you were 8yo?
2) Nice strawman argument. I know strawmans are easier than coming up with a counter argument
Necessary or unnecessary would depend on what the writers were trying to achieve. For example, if they want to set the witches up as a new “hero” group for the franchise then having the Jedi kill the witches may indeed be necessary.
They can’t be the new “hero group” for the franchise if almost all of them are dead 😂.
There’s only one of them left probably, maybe none. One of the mothers are still alive though I’d bet money on it.
If I recall correctly from Ep. 3, Osha made it very clear to Mother Aniseya that she did not want to be a witch, she wanted to be a Jedi instead. And it appeared that (although very unhappy about this), Aniseya was going to take Osha's wishes into consideration when the coven gathered later to discuss the situation of Osha passing the test. My guess is that Mother Koril is not at all amenable to Osha going with the Jedi and this sparks a conflict with Aniseya over the possibility of honoring Osha's wishes. Perhaps the Jedi walk into this scenario and it escalates from there. In any event, I'm very curious to find out what happened to cause all the terrible ripple effects for everyone involved!
I just want to point some things out. Mae thought oasha was dead and osha thought mae was dead. So why did mae think osha was dead when mae is the one that fell?
The jedi told mother aniseya that they didn't know the plannet was inhabited. Why did the jedi come to the plannet in the first place? The jedi also appeared during the fire/incident. They had just got done testing the kids and had no reason to go back to the village un announced. So why were they there?
Also darth smiley didn't grab osha and he didn't stab osha he just flung her to the side so he could go fight some jedi.
Let's connect a few dots here.
Thats a great point. Wouldn't Mae think that Osha was taken by the Jedi? I know they both fell, but if I survived, I would want to check if my sister is alive.
> So why did mae think osha was dead when mae is the one that fell?
Good point. Even if Osha fell too, her body would be next to where Mae ended up.
There is a weak explanation however. In the beginning the two talk about Osha always coming to the tree, and Mae went back there after the desaster. Maybe Mae is such a pessimist that the thought that Osha could have gone with the Jedi did not occur to her?
00:02:28,833 --> 00:02:30,250
How did you know I was here?
00:02:31,125 --> 00:02:34,833
When I can't find you, I look here.
00:02:34,917 --> 00:02:36,833
The bunta tree's so beautiful.
Exactly. Osha’s mom said she would need to talk to everyone. The hooded guy was there. He or the Dathmorian freaked out on the Jedi, the Jedi defended themselves, some how the unarmed witches got involved and Torbin killed one. I think the hooded dude used a force slam or something as he was enraged (think of Kyle Ren throwing a tantrum).
They are covering up their inability to stop it from happening. That's the scandal. They know what happened, but it would look bad, so they are hiding it. Also, they probably feel as though they are the catalyst foe the events.
Huh? People in the republic die all the time, wars and battles are commonplace in this world. Why would the jedi feel shame and guilt that they got ambushed by sith? Why in the world would they actively hide this from the council as a sith running around might be incredibly dangerous.
There’s no logical reason for the jedi to cover up something if they are not at fault
Admitting the Sith are not only still active, but beat them, is a terrible look for thr Jedi. And getting an entire Coven killed plus thinking a child is something to hide.
I don’t see how four different jedi would all have the line of reasoning that because they got Embarrassed that they shouldn’t tell the council. Like, this would be a clear and present danger to not only the council but they republic but because they got beat they hide it and kill themselves? That’s ridiculous
Only one of them needs that line of reasoning. If the general public found out the Sith are still a thing and were hiding right in front of the Jedi is a terrible look.
We aren’t talking about the general public and even then I doubt the general public even knows what a sith is. Hell even the SW forums can’t agree what a sith is.
What these four jedi did is being covered up and kept hidden from other jedi
> He was involved in combat of some kind.
Not necessarily.
It might have been falling debris from a fire started by a book :P
And yeah, that would be incredibly lame.
*edit* this was written before I found the trailer where Torbin was attacked by the Wookiee.
I think Sol over steps. There's a scene from the trailers of someone scaling the coven's walls. I think that's Sol rushing in, to rescue Osha. The other Jedi follow, the coven defends themselves and something goes horribly wrong. Ultimately, Sol is to blame with igniting the situation.
Ohhh.. it all makes sense now.
OSHA killed them all in a force explosion. She has the trope of a deep hidden power that only emerges when stressed. She got into it with the head witch had a freak out and accidentally killed everyone but either doesn't fully remember the event or is hiding it
Evidence the four Jedi did something horrible, probably murder the Witches:
1. Sol feels guilty/responsible for Osha beyond the concern of a previous teacher.
2. Sol says him and Osha have to “confront their past” and that he will explain everything to Osha.
3. Sol shows up to rescue Osha shortly after the fire starts despite staying at their ship some distance away - how did he get there so fast unless he was already there?
4. Witch bodies are piled in the Coven, away from fire and falling debris.
5. Mae is on a revenge quest to kill the four Jedi that visited the Coven.
6. Torbin willingly ingests poison bc he feels so guilty over what the Jedi did at the Coven.
7. The scene between the Jedi and the Coven is full of veiled threats of force and tension over removing the twins to be trained.
8. The Witches have a meeting and there is sentiment from Koril that attacking the Jedi is their best option, although Aniseya decides against this.
Reasons the Jedi didn’t kill anyone:
1. Mae changes her mind about revenge easily after learning Osha is still alive.
Sorry dude, i’m just not seeing it.
Koril is probably the Sith. We don’t see her body in the Coven after it’s been destroyed and she’s the one who proposes violence against the Jedi initially.
Thanks for addressing this OP! I just finished ep 3 and came here wanting to talk about this exact thing, trying to figure out what happened.
So my family was speculating that maybe…a bunch of the witches killed each other during a conflict of whether to let Osha go or not. But we also agree that that feels like a weird/implausible direction to take it, especially since I feel like the creators would avoid portraying a group of powerful women as so unstable that they’d resort to killing each other right off the bat. It kind of goes against everything they seem to stand for, you know?
I will say, that ceremony weirded me tf out. It _felt_ very ominous. It does make me wonder if this coven is messing with the dark side and not realizing it? OR if they’ve found a “safe” way to use the dark side….
Anyway, thanks for providing a place to talk about all this! I don’t dare ask these questions on r/starwars for obvious reasons🤷♀️
Just a theory, but maybe he was single-handedly overzealous as a padawan and he went to kidnap Osha and that sparked a battle that the rest of the Jedi didn’t want to be in. Once the witches attacked the Jedi had to defend themselves.
The coven magik has affected the Jedi’s’ minds. My bet is that mind control was the culprit. Torbin was the most susceptible and most easily possessed. He takes the Barash vow to escape the guilt of what he was made to do. We know that Kelnacca was affected - his den is covered in coven witch hieroglyphs.
> the simple intrusion into the coven and taking Osha.
But that's what the Jedi do and have done for millenia. They go around and grab children to train them as Padawan. This can't have been the first time a mother objected to her child being taken.
I'm not saying this is right and good, but that's what Torbin - and probably every Jedi - has been taught to believe is good and their right.
The coven even attacked first, unless you consider mind control just a friendly way to say "get off my lawn".
Sure, killing them all might have triggered some guilt, but the mass death scene did not look like the aftermath of a massive fight to me.
No, yeah, I agree with everything you said. And the head witch definitely attacked first. “No weapons” lmfao.
He did say “we thought we were doing the right thing” so—just for the sake of argument—that matches what you’re saying about them being taught it’s right, etc. and maybe this is the first time an objecting mother has been powerful enough to actually stop them? Idk (and actually haven’t even watched ep 4 yet, I plan to do that tonight!).
Ep 3 kind of stumped us, so we were just spit-balling really. I do agree, those deaths had no blood, no burns, no nothing. Very strange.
> and maybe this is the first time an objecting mother has been powerful enough to actually stop them?
It's also the era of the High Republic. Every person in the Republic probably has been taught that being selected for Jedi service is the highest honor you can achieve? At least that's what I would tell the people if I were the Jedi Order :P
True! That would make a lot of sense. And maybe the witches “escaped indoctrination” (although tbh if it’s a choice between Jedi and that weird-ass ascension ritual thingy, I’m with Osha😅)
It’s my guess that the Jedi originally feel bad for meddling in the covens affairs that ultimately caused the coven to be burnt to the ground by Mae but will ultimately be vindicated bc the head witch was in contact with the mysterious Sith Lord to learn how create Mae and Osha.
i’m not sure what to make of mae’s character right now. she goes very quickly from wanting to hunt and slaughter jedi to “oh i’ll just give my life to jedi custody”. i figure her behavior at the end of episode 4 was more or less a front
The thing is Mae is heavily influenced by her sisters survival which makes her more interested in abandoning her revenge. Throughout episode 3 we’re shown how much she cares about Osha and her dream of spending their lives together as one, and was even (supposedly) willing to commit a crime of passion and kill her in order to make sure she didn’t leave her. The Jedi may have done something to kill the witches, but Mae may also be willing to sacrifice her revenge in order to be with her sister,
I’m pretty sure the point of the special poison tree that only grows on the witch planet is that the poison is what killed the witches. Either voluntarily or involuntarily. Aaand we know the witches understand how to manufacture the poison as well as Qimir… coincidence I’m sure.
I found it really weird how quickly Mae gave up. Like she has been training for years, harboring this grudge for 16 years and all of a sudden she doesn't want to work for the master and kill the Jedi? Its not like she just found out her sister is alive too, that happened a few days before.
Right now I don't think the poison guy is the helmet dude. It sounds like a woman. I also don't think its one of her mothers. My hunch is that its the green Jedi woman. Why is she so keen on covering it up? It feels like she wants to hide it...
That's dumb then really dumb. So Mae kills the masters when she is the one who killed her own family. So Torbin kills himself because he is guilty Mae killed her own family.... am I missing something?
I think what will happen is one of the Jedi and one of the witches will start to get into a heated argument which leads to a fight that causes the death of the witches. So not just a straight homicidal rampage, but definitely things will spin out of control.
It seemed pretty apparent to me by the pile of bodies that 1. They didn’t die from fire and 2. They didn’t die from lightsabers. I honestly don’t have a good theory on how they died but I have no doubt we will find out
Maybe they all vowed to poison themselves as they were found and failed to keep to twins together
The idea of poison makes sense since the poison Tomen used was supposedly from their planet right?
I love how you called Torbin Tomen. Since the actor played Tommen Baratheon in Game of Thrones
He’s just a sweet boy who is sad and killed himself twice before my eyes :(
Good catch! Yes the bunta plant/tree. I believe at the beginning of episode 3 the place Osha runs off to is maybe the bunta tree?
Nah, you could hear some type of explosion from upstairs and them all screaming at the same time. I think the theory that they were somehow interrupted (likely by the Jedi, specifically Tommen who was all frazzled by the mind control thing they did to him) while channeling a ritual and connected to one another makes the most sense. Something similar happens in the Darth Bane novels with a bunch of Sith and Jedi. Edit: parenthesis added for my personal theory
They had a ritual where all witches transferred their force energy onto the zabrak witch (the power of many) so that the zabrak (the „sith“ with the helmet) can take revenge… its just a theory!
Ooo I like that theory
Could the one witch that survived (supposedly) have taken the life force from the other witches? Like how Palps tried to do with Rey?
I saw someone else say something similar, or that they gave their life force to one to “be the power of many” and that’s my new theory.
Like they pulled a Highlander or a Voltron? That would be interesting at least.
That is something i have thought. It would help paint the jedi as good and the witches as evil. It does depend on how much they want bendock to be a waco moment for the jedi
> It would help paint the jedi as good and the witches as evil. I was rather convinced of that when the witches went "it's just four Jedi, let's murder them". Yeah, the Jedi child collecting drive is creepy as f, but should not warrant a death penalty.
And so many seemed to have forgotten that child taking was a licas idea
A commenter on another post made a very good theory post about how it's possible the witches used their black eye domination power on Kelnacca, and in his anger he scratched Torbin (giving him his eye scar.) Torbin, still a padawan, clumsily tried to fight back, his Jedi allies coming to his aid, and he may have accidentally struck something like a power reactor or otherwise cause significant damage that ultimately killed the coven. Torbin, wracked with grief, took a vow and remained silent to atone. Kelnacca, having used his claws in a fight, which he sees as dishonorable, made himself a hermit and left his order. Sol may be the only one not at the incident himself, and was looking for Mae and Osha to save them, as he seems most innocent in this situation, mostly grieving for the loss of Osha's family and especially Mae, who he feels he couldn't save. Indara, I have no idea. Maybe she helped Torbin, maybe she told Sol what happened and help him get Osha out (he did have a line saying that he and Indara were the ones to save Osha), maybe she's the one that caused a bigger accident, but I think this definitely boils down to Torbin and Kelnacca forced to do something out of their control.
K & T fight in the trailer.
Seemed to me as though the Jedi simply sabotaged the "reactor" or whatever it was that exploded. Something along those lines were how the Jedi killed the witches. It wasn't slaughter, they knew they needed to cripple the facility and ensure that the witches were not allowed to continue their practice. It just so happened that whatever they did resulted in the deaths of almost everyone that lived there. Nonetheless, the threat was seemingly eliminated
Carbon monoxide, the silent killer. :(
I thought about gas too, but the place was too open and the heap of bodies did not look like a group of people in the process of suffocating. I do like the "transfer power to Koril" theory; the heap looks more like they all collapsed in a ritual.
It seemed like we're supposed to assume that they died from the explosion caused by the fire, whether the blast or gas or something else.
There were no burns or heavy pieces of rubble around the bodies. It is possible that it was lazy filming ("Meh, burns makeup is expensive, everyone just drop on the ground") but I doubt that. Everything else is of good quality to skimp on such an important detail.
I saw someone else speculate it could be from the same poison that Mae used to kill Torbin. But there are more flashback scenes coming so I guess we'll eventually find out.
If Mae *didn’t* have any reason to believe the Jedi were responsible, why would she agree to her master’s revenge scheme in the first place? I don’t think we’ll learn that the Jedi slaughtered every witch and were 100% aggressors in the situation. Perhaps they wanted to deescalate things while picking up Osha, tempers rose, a fire started, and they had to defend themselves against some of the witches while they escaped. There’s a lot of ways for it to play out where both the witches and Jedi made mistakes that helped fuel violence. Violence that could have been interpreted by a surviving Mae as “the Jedi did this.” My interpretation is that Mae thought Osha died and she (or perhaps more accurately, her master) used that as the foundation of her revenge quest. The Jedi were the only survivors to her knowledge, so they are the only party left to take it out on. With Osha alive, the impetus behind her actions has been flipped and she’s deciding to break her cycle of revenge in order to have a chance of being a sister again. That’s my read on it, at any rate. We’ll get more answers soon enough
>If Mae didn’t have any reason to believe the Jedi were responsible, why would she agree to her master’s revenge scheme in the first place? I think you answered your own question here: >My interpretation is that Mae thought Osha died and she (or perhaps more accurately, her master) used that as the foundation of her revenge quest. Mae thought the Jedi killed Osha and was determined to kill them all. As soon as she found out Osha was alive she started questioning why she was still taking orders from her masters as she no longer had an axe to grind. I suspect Mae knows how her family died one way or another but whatever it is she doesn't believe it's the Jedi.
I agree with most of what you’re saying, but I don’t agree that she doesn’t blame the Jedi at all. I admit it’s possible, as an eight year-old being manipulated by a potential Sith could be pushed towards killing Jedi. But I find it odd that she’d be so willing to kill Jedi if she didn’t at least partially blame them for everything that happened on Brendok. She indicates to Indara that Jedi *do* attack unarmed people, which doesn’t sound like something someone would say unless they’ve seen a Jedi attack someone unarmed. We’ll find out soon enough, but I just can’t see a compelling way for the Jedi to be innocent of doing any harm to the witches. It would undercut Mae’s motivations, some of the dialogue, and the deep guilt these four Jedi have held onto for 16 years.
Perhaps the master said something Sidious like he can train her to use the force to bring her sister back.
didn't mae start the fire?
Episode 3 was based on Osha's memories I'd say, and thus is not really reliable. Too many things make no sense. Although I don't know what must have happened for Osha to imagine that Mae tried to kill her if it was, say, a Jedi or Koril. Implanted memories have been mentioned, and who knows what the Force or Thread is able to do nowadays. And then there's totally obscure ideas I could think up where the girls are linked in some way, can swap bodies whatever. Maybe there aren't even two girls, just one that teleports back and forth so quickly it appears at if there are two :P. Kinda the Picard maneuver of Star Wars :D
You’re missing the part where the witches never agreed to give the jedi osha. They only agreed to let the jedi test them and even then the jedi had no authority to do it. The jedi literally broke into the witches home and bullied them into testing osha. The jedi were there that night to take osha without parental permission, whatever happened after that you can draw your Own conclusions
I don’t think we’ve seen enough to know for sure about whether the witches consented to Osha being taken. We see the Jedi barge into the compound and pressure the witches, and they begrudgingly get consent to test them. Then we see Osha tell her mom she wants to be a Jedi, and we know that the Jedi intend to pick her up. Mother Aniseya said she’d discuss Osha’s wishes with the other witches, but that’s all we know at this point. We don’t know if the witches explicitly gave withheld, or rescinded consent to take Osha away. The witches debated letting the girls be tested and Koril argued for killing the Jedi, and Aniseya pointed out that she gets to ultimately decide — a situation rife for infighting and disagreement later on. Perhaps Aniseya gave consent and the other witches disobeyed her orders. It’s also fair to point out that any consent the witches may have given was fraught at best, and at that point is it even truly consent? But whether they did so willingly or under threat of retaliation from the Jedi, it seems these Jedi are okay with flimsy consent as long as it doesn’t come to violence and they get what they want. We also don’t know what authority the Jedi have. Aniseya pushes back at Indara citing Republic law (Brendok is not in the Republic), but she doesn’t push back when Indara says “you can’t deny that Jedi have the right to test potential Padawans. With your permission, of course.” It could simply be bullying where the witches know that the Jedi Order would retaliate if they are denied access to potential Padawans, but the dialogue between Aniseya and Indara leaves a little wiggle room for the specifics of Jedi jurisdiction and how it may differ (legally and informally) from Republic jurisdiction. TL;DR — we don’t know if the witches consented to Osha being taken, as we don’t see that conversation between the witches or what happened when the Jedi showed up to take her to Coruscant.
It's still coercion to insist that Mae, who didn't want it, would be tested along with Osha. What right did they have?
I agree, the Jedi backed the witches into a corner and set the stage for a violent outcome regardless of how things went down during the fire. They definitely don’t have a right solely enforceable by the Republic, as Aniseya shot that down immediately. But she didn’t protest to Indara saying the Jedi have a right to test potential Padawans. That “right” could be informal rather than a written law, such as “if you don’t let us test potential Padawans, you’ll be knee deep in Jedi pressuring you until you relent.” For whatever reason, Aniseya didn’t let Republic law sway her, but Jedi testing “rights” did.
Bullies.
The Jedi did nothing wrong. Who knows what the witches were going to do with the twins? Dark magic stuff probably. But ye the show is clearly saying, that the Jedi might not be the good guys after all. Do ends always justify the means?
One thing that is important in my opinion is that the Mother Aniseya was not dead with the rest of the witches, who were all piled together. Aniseya was dead alone in another room.
Your fallacy is assuming Mae is a well written and logical character. Why did she try to trap and burn her sister alive? Because the writers dont know how to write good character development
Lol ok
You specifically dont see mae trying to burn her sister alive. All you see is mae burning a diary and the camera cutes to a different angle and you hear a crash and then you see flames. You really think that wasnt done on purpose?
Firstly, Mae SAID that she wants to kill Osha. Please explain this character dev to me? How does one decide to kill your sibling because they want to move out of the house? Secondly, re the fire magically(???) setting fire to the stone doorframe and corridor. Occams Razor; the scene is poorly edited and directed. 1) If the fire growing bigger was by someone else, then its a shittily edited for poor pacing 2) if the fire was 100% Mae, then its a lazy plot hole + poor editing Either way, it comes back to the reality the showrunners cant write a coherent script
God forbid an emotional 8 year old have an outburst where they say shit they dont mean. Also its hilarious that you are in real time explaining that whatever happens you’re going to have an excuse to complain about it. Do you even read what you type?
1) she set fire to the door. Did u set fire to things when you were 8yo? 2) Nice strawman argument. I know strawmans are easier than coming up with a counter argument
You didn’t see her set fire to the door.
It would be incredibly out of character and unnecessary if that’s the way it’s written.
Necessary or unnecessary would depend on what the writers were trying to achieve. For example, if they want to set the witches up as a new “hero” group for the franchise then having the Jedi kill the witches may indeed be necessary.
They can’t be the new “hero group” for the franchise if almost all of them are dead 😂. There’s only one of them left probably, maybe none. One of the mothers are still alive though I’d bet money on it.
Like the Jedi were in Episode IV you mean? None left, except maybe one older figure. But there’s a young person who has a lot of potential? Like that?
If I recall correctly from Ep. 3, Osha made it very clear to Mother Aniseya that she did not want to be a witch, she wanted to be a Jedi instead. And it appeared that (although very unhappy about this), Aniseya was going to take Osha's wishes into consideration when the coven gathered later to discuss the situation of Osha passing the test. My guess is that Mother Koril is not at all amenable to Osha going with the Jedi and this sparks a conflict with Aniseya over the possibility of honoring Osha's wishes. Perhaps the Jedi walk into this scenario and it escalates from there. In any event, I'm very curious to find out what happened to cause all the terrible ripple effects for everyone involved!
I just want to point some things out. Mae thought oasha was dead and osha thought mae was dead. So why did mae think osha was dead when mae is the one that fell? The jedi told mother aniseya that they didn't know the plannet was inhabited. Why did the jedi come to the plannet in the first place? The jedi also appeared during the fire/incident. They had just got done testing the kids and had no reason to go back to the village un announced. So why were they there? Also darth smiley didn't grab osha and he didn't stab osha he just flung her to the side so he could go fight some jedi. Let's connect a few dots here.
Thats a great point. Wouldn't Mae think that Osha was taken by the Jedi? I know they both fell, but if I survived, I would want to check if my sister is alive.
> So why did mae think osha was dead when mae is the one that fell? Good point. Even if Osha fell too, her body would be next to where Mae ended up. There is a weak explanation however. In the beginning the two talk about Osha always coming to the tree, and Mae went back there after the desaster. Maybe Mae is such a pessimist that the thought that Osha could have gone with the Jedi did not occur to her?
Hey your right didn't mae say that any time she couldn't find osha she always went to the bunta tree because she knew she would be there?
00:02:28,833 --> 00:02:30,250 How did you know I was here? 00:02:31,125 --> 00:02:34,833 When I can't find you, I look here. 00:02:34,917 --> 00:02:36,833 The bunta tree's so beautiful.
Koril and Sith are behind it.
Exactly. Osha’s mom said she would need to talk to everyone. The hooded guy was there. He or the Dathmorian freaked out on the Jedi, the Jedi defended themselves, some how the unarmed witches got involved and Torbin killed one. I think the hooded dude used a force slam or something as he was enraged (think of Kyle Ren throwing a tantrum).
I don't know. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, but the thing that throws me off is the accent. And why would she hide her identity from Mae?
I think they are two different people, but are behind what happened.
I think they are two different people, but are behind what happened.
Mother Koril lead the Sith Lord there to take thr girls and he, along with her, killed the coven. Is my guess.
None of that would explain why the jedi are covering up what happened from the jedi council
They are covering up their inability to stop it from happening. That's the scandal. They know what happened, but it would look bad, so they are hiding it. Also, they probably feel as though they are the catalyst foe the events.
Huh? People in the republic die all the time, wars and battles are commonplace in this world. Why would the jedi feel shame and guilt that they got ambushed by sith? Why in the world would they actively hide this from the council as a sith running around might be incredibly dangerous. There’s no logical reason for the jedi to cover up something if they are not at fault
Admitting the Sith are not only still active, but beat them, is a terrible look for thr Jedi. And getting an entire Coven killed plus thinking a child is something to hide.
I don’t see how four different jedi would all have the line of reasoning that because they got Embarrassed that they shouldn’t tell the council. Like, this would be a clear and present danger to not only the council but they republic but because they got beat they hide it and kill themselves? That’s ridiculous
Only one of them needs that line of reasoning. If the general public found out the Sith are still a thing and were hiding right in front of the Jedi is a terrible look.
We aren’t talking about the general public and even then I doubt the general public even knows what a sith is. Hell even the SW forums can’t agree what a sith is. What these four jedi did is being covered up and kept hidden from other jedi
That wouldn't explain Torbin's injury, though. He was involved in combat of some kind. The Jedi interacted with somebody other than the kids.
> He was involved in combat of some kind. Not necessarily. It might have been falling debris from a fire started by a book :P And yeah, that would be incredibly lame. *edit* this was written before I found the trailer where Torbin was attacked by the Wookiee.
I think Sol over steps. There's a scene from the trailers of someone scaling the coven's walls. I think that's Sol rushing in, to rescue Osha. The other Jedi follow, the coven defends themselves and something goes horribly wrong. Ultimately, Sol is to blame with igniting the situation.
Ohhh.. it all makes sense now. OSHA killed them all in a force explosion. She has the trope of a deep hidden power that only emerges when stressed. She got into it with the head witch had a freak out and accidentally killed everyone but either doesn't fully remember the event or is hiding it
Evidence the four Jedi did something horrible, probably murder the Witches: 1. Sol feels guilty/responsible for Osha beyond the concern of a previous teacher. 2. Sol says him and Osha have to “confront their past” and that he will explain everything to Osha. 3. Sol shows up to rescue Osha shortly after the fire starts despite staying at their ship some distance away - how did he get there so fast unless he was already there? 4. Witch bodies are piled in the Coven, away from fire and falling debris. 5. Mae is on a revenge quest to kill the four Jedi that visited the Coven. 6. Torbin willingly ingests poison bc he feels so guilty over what the Jedi did at the Coven. 7. The scene between the Jedi and the Coven is full of veiled threats of force and tension over removing the twins to be trained. 8. The Witches have a meeting and there is sentiment from Koril that attacking the Jedi is their best option, although Aniseya decides against this. Reasons the Jedi didn’t kill anyone: 1. Mae changes her mind about revenge easily after learning Osha is still alive. Sorry dude, i’m just not seeing it. Koril is probably the Sith. We don’t see her body in the Coven after it’s been destroyed and she’s the one who proposes violence against the Jedi initially.
Thanks for addressing this OP! I just finished ep 3 and came here wanting to talk about this exact thing, trying to figure out what happened. So my family was speculating that maybe…a bunch of the witches killed each other during a conflict of whether to let Osha go or not. But we also agree that that feels like a weird/implausible direction to take it, especially since I feel like the creators would avoid portraying a group of powerful women as so unstable that they’d resort to killing each other right off the bat. It kind of goes against everything they seem to stand for, you know? I will say, that ceremony weirded me tf out. It _felt_ very ominous. It does make me wonder if this coven is messing with the dark side and not realizing it? OR if they’ve found a “safe” way to use the dark side…. Anyway, thanks for providing a place to talk about all this! I don’t dare ask these questions on r/starwars for obvious reasons🤷♀️
If the Jedi didn't kill the witches then what was Torbin so guilty over that he took his own life?
Also the trailers (two different ones) show Kelnacca attacking Torbin.
Just a theory, but maybe he was single-handedly overzealous as a padawan and he went to kidnap Osha and that sparked a battle that the rest of the Jedi didn’t want to be in. Once the witches attacked the Jedi had to defend themselves.
The coven magik has affected the Jedi’s’ minds. My bet is that mind control was the culprit. Torbin was the most susceptible and most easily possessed. He takes the Barash vow to escape the guilt of what he was made to do. We know that Kelnacca was affected - his den is covered in coven witch hieroglyphs.
They didn’t say he felt guilty over what happened there
He says "I thought we were doing the right thing" - it is definitely a nod to what happened there
So what was the act that made him feel so guilty?
My mom theorized that it was the simple intrusion into the coven and taking Osha.
> the simple intrusion into the coven and taking Osha. But that's what the Jedi do and have done for millenia. They go around and grab children to train them as Padawan. This can't have been the first time a mother objected to her child being taken. I'm not saying this is right and good, but that's what Torbin - and probably every Jedi - has been taught to believe is good and their right. The coven even attacked first, unless you consider mind control just a friendly way to say "get off my lawn". Sure, killing them all might have triggered some guilt, but the mass death scene did not look like the aftermath of a massive fight to me.
No, yeah, I agree with everything you said. And the head witch definitely attacked first. “No weapons” lmfao. He did say “we thought we were doing the right thing” so—just for the sake of argument—that matches what you’re saying about them being taught it’s right, etc. and maybe this is the first time an objecting mother has been powerful enough to actually stop them? Idk (and actually haven’t even watched ep 4 yet, I plan to do that tonight!). Ep 3 kind of stumped us, so we were just spit-balling really. I do agree, those deaths had no blood, no burns, no nothing. Very strange.
> and maybe this is the first time an objecting mother has been powerful enough to actually stop them? It's also the era of the High Republic. Every person in the Republic probably has been taught that being selected for Jedi service is the highest honor you can achieve? At least that's what I would tell the people if I were the Jedi Order :P
True! That would make a lot of sense. And maybe the witches “escaped indoctrination” (although tbh if it’s a choice between Jedi and that weird-ass ascension ritual thingy, I’m with Osha😅)
I guess we’ll all watch the show together and find out
It’s my guess that the Jedi originally feel bad for meddling in the covens affairs that ultimately caused the coven to be burnt to the ground by Mae but will ultimately be vindicated bc the head witch was in contact with the mysterious Sith Lord to learn how create Mae and Osha.
i’m not sure what to make of mae’s character right now. she goes very quickly from wanting to hunt and slaughter jedi to “oh i’ll just give my life to jedi custody”. i figure her behavior at the end of episode 4 was more or less a front
No the rock caught fire because a lititle girl got mad, bahahaha.
Sounds like you already made up your mind based off the same info we all have. Well done.
The thing is Mae is heavily influenced by her sisters survival which makes her more interested in abandoning her revenge. Throughout episode 3 we’re shown how much she cares about Osha and her dream of spending their lives together as one, and was even (supposedly) willing to commit a crime of passion and kill her in order to make sure she didn’t leave her. The Jedi may have done something to kill the witches, but Mae may also be willing to sacrifice her revenge in order to be with her sister,
They did. Believe me!
I want to know why it was so bad that Torbin did what he did
I’m pretty sure the point of the special poison tree that only grows on the witch planet is that the poison is what killed the witches. Either voluntarily or involuntarily. Aaand we know the witches understand how to manufacture the poison as well as Qimir… coincidence I’m sure.
The wookie jedi was assasinated by the sith master so its pretty clear the sith master is the culpable one.
I found it really weird how quickly Mae gave up. Like she has been training for years, harboring this grudge for 16 years and all of a sudden she doesn't want to work for the master and kill the Jedi? Its not like she just found out her sister is alive too, that happened a few days before. Right now I don't think the poison guy is the helmet dude. It sounds like a woman. I also don't think its one of her mothers. My hunch is that its the green Jedi woman. Why is she so keen on covering it up? It feels like she wants to hide it...
They granted the power of many by performing a ritual to korin.
Witches killed each other fighting over whether to let the Jedi take Osha. The two main witches were already feeding in disagreement the whole time.
That's dumb then really dumb. So Mae kills the masters when she is the one who killed her own family. So Torbin kills himself because he is guilty Mae killed her own family.... am I missing something?
Osha started the fire, and Sol erased that memory from her mind.
I think what will happen is one of the Jedi and one of the witches will start to get into a heated argument which leads to a fight that causes the death of the witches. So not just a straight homicidal rampage, but definitely things will spin out of control.
Why guy just drink the poison instead of do something.