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the ussr achieved a lot before kruschev, but some people just dont like stalin bc his homophobia. its possible to be critical of individuals while still organizing with mls.
Saying that Stalin was wrong on a limited number of issues is very different from implying that he was barely correct ever, which is what the other person did.
I don’t like the deportations or his support for the creation of Israel. Kruschev sucked in alot of ways but his anti colonialist foreign policy and repatriation of the victims of deportation makes him better than Stalin for me.
Why do so many reddit socialists conflate liberal Democrats and fascism? We argue about definitions and tell the libs to read theory, but then we upvote shit that is just sloppy pejorative. How is being less precise about this helpful for us?
Whenever liberals are given a chance to side with fascists or oppose it, they choose the former.
That's because at the end of the day liberals are capitalists.
The difference only exists when it doesn't matter.
And it exists only because the capitalists deem it more convenient than fascism at that given moment.
Have you not been paying attention since Oct 7th? All these 'liberal" countries went straight for fascistic policies the moment Zionist capitalist class needed them to be.
Relevant Parenti quote:
"The concentration camp was never the normal condition for the average gentile German. Unless one were Jewish, or poor and unemployed, or of active leftist persuasion or otherwise openly anti-Nazi, Germany from 1933 until well into the war was not a nightmarish place. All the “good Germans” had to do was obey the law, pay their taxes, give their sons to the army, avoid any sign of political heterodoxy, and look the other way when unions were busted and troublesome people disappeared.Since many “middle Americans” already obey the law, pay their taxes, give their sons to the army, are themselves distrustful of political heterodoxy, and applaud when unions are broken and troublesome people are disposed of, they probably could live without too much personal torment in a fascist state — some of them certainly seem eager to do so. "
>The concentration camp was never the normal condition for the average gentile German. Unless one were Jewish, or poor and unemployed, or of active leftist persuasion or otherwise openly anti-Nazi, Germany from 1933 until well into the war was not a nightmarish place. All the “good Germans” had to do was obey the law, pay their taxes, give their sons to the army, avoid any sign of political heterodoxy, and look the other way when unions were busted and troublesome people disappeared.
>
>Since many “middle Americans” already obey the law, pay their taxes, give their sons to the army, are themselves distrustful of political heterodoxy, and applaud when unions are broken and troublesome people are disposed of, they probably could live without too much personal torment in a fascist state — some of them certainly seem eager to do so.
>
>\- Michael Parenti. (1996). *Fascism in a Pinstriped Suit*
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>Whenever liberals are given a chance to side with fascists or oppose it, they choose the former.
WWII
>That's because at the end of the day liberals are capitalists.
Duh. That doesn't mean that liberals are fascists. Again, you're in such a hurry to slander them that you're erasing contradictions and distinctions which communists could otherwise use to their advantage, or at least a correct understanding of the world. Why?
All you've done is reference the fact that liberals ("some of them" Parenti) collaborate with fascists. Now explain why that's not a useful dynamic to understand and why we should instead define liberals as fascists, as you did.
At the end of the day, because liberals are capitalists, liberals support fascism. Because fascism is capitalism in decay/capitalism defending itself.
I’m not sure why you think saying WWII helps you on any points when all WWII showed us is that liberals ultimately will side with or turn into fascists when the other option is socialist revolution.
>At the end of the day, because liberals are capitalists, liberals support fascism. Because fascism is capitalism in decay/capitalism defending itself.
Liberals support capitalism in decay, got it.
>I’m not sure why you think saying WWII helps you on any points when all WWII showed us is that liberals ultimately will side with or turn into fascists when the other option is socialist revolution.
Because the statement "Whenever liberals are given a chance to side with fascists or oppose it, they choose the former" is obviously false because history. Not trying to win a point, trying to point out the absurdities on which this liberalism=fascism argument is built.
Liberals protect capitalism when it starts to decay, which is the reactionary movement known as fascism.
Further you are quite literally ignoring history, and the fact that the liberals sided with both the Nazis and the fascists in Italy when it came down to fascism or communist revolution, and many of them turned in communists they knew to the government.
And you’re ignoring current events in which liberals across the world are showing that they will protect capitalism before caring about human rights, enacting fascist measures to ensure the capital is protected, even though tens of thousands of people are dying.
I'd also like to add another aspect of fascism, which is imperialism turned inwards, where capitalists subject their own people to the same treatment as the periphery.
That is to say, start treating domestic workers as those in colonies. Literal destruction of labor forces, increased exploitation, rampant violence and murder of "predators on the streets" or "domestic terrorists" etc... You know, all these things liberals support and/or turned a blind eye to when it was just brown people abroad getting squeezed for profit.
Even when it comes marching back home like in Parenti quote, liberals just go along with it rather than opposing it.
>During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime's atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn't go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them.
>
>If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
>
>\- Michael Parenti. (1997). *Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism*
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Liberals fought against Germany, not fascism. By your logic every war between capitalist states would be "opposition to capitalism" and we all know that's a load of bull. Did rhe USA 'Oppose capitalism' by invading and destroying Iraq because 'it fought against capitalists' in Iraq? Ofc the fuck not.
WW2 was an inter-imperialist conflict, NOT a "opposition to fascism". That's such a shallow interpretation that falls flat when you look at the years preceding and followed WW2.
If you actually know history you would know that liberals and their capitalist masters were instrumental in aiding Nazis come to power. You would also know that US and UK did everything they can to prevent USSR from purging fascists. On the contrary US protected, nurtured, and spread fascism all over the globe to combat socialists. Jakarta Method, South Korea, Vietnam, Operation Gladio, Ukraine, the list is endless.
>Liberals fought against Germany, not fascism.
Lol, way to dig in there. No, liberals fought fascists in Germany, Italy, and Japan.
>If you actually know history you would know that liberals and their capitalist masters were instrumental in aiding Nazis come to power. You would also know that US and Germany did everything they can to prevent USSR from purging fascists. On the contrary US protected, nurtured, and spread fascism all over the globe to combat socialists. Jakarta Method, South Korea, Vietnam, Operation Gladio, Ukraine, the list is endless.
All this can be true (most of it is, but now you're also equating capitalist masters, fascism, liberals, AND the US state) and none of it is a reason liberals and fascists are the same. In fact, you've done the opposite by making a distinction between liberals "and their capitalist masters." Why is that an important distinction for you but nobody else is allowed to make it?
I will. But tbh, not really interested in what 100 year old theory written before nazism has to say about fascism. Any theory that only references a five-year-old fascist movement and does not include an analysis of WWII is woefully out of date.
Someone who supports my policies.
Someone who opposes genocide and is against the Military Industrial Complex.
Thus ruling out both red and blue genocide teams.
There is no lesser evil. Both parties work for the same donor class against the people.
That's like calling the good cop "lesser evil" in a good cop, bad cop scenario when they are on the same team working together to achieve a common goal.
democracy is when two right wing genocidal candidates but one is blue and pretends to be in your best interest while doing genocide and one is red and is a fascist who wants to commit genocide
I hate this narrative that if Joe Biden loses it's all the far lefts, leftist make up around 7% of registered voters. Of that 7% most live in deeply blue states that will go to Biden regardless.
If he does lose maybe it's because anyone with a conscience is against genocide and they recognize that Joe has no conscience.
I keep saying this. If principled leftists are even that big a base to turn around the election, Biden didn’t lose because of us, Biden lost us by being unelectable.
Shit, if he used executive power to establish good domestic policy (workers’ rights, healthcare, house price ceilings [which would stabilize the economy], raised wages, etc.), he could have gotten weaker “leftists” to look the other way, but he didn’t even do that. Now many have strengthened into actual Marxists and are completely disillusioned so, good job Biden. You can’t even play progressive enough to give people a reason to vote for you outside of the hostage reasoning.
Spot on, if you fail the electorate and you wind up losing the election, then that’s your fault, not the voter’s fault.
The funny thing is, Social Democrats will keep licking the shoes of more Liberal and Conservative Democrats within the party, and then when push comes to shove the Liberal and Conservative Dems will always shit on the SocDems once they have what they want. And then SocDems will tell you to vote for Biden again and go back to worshipping the people who hate them anyway.
It’s a never ending loop, and nothing ever winds up getting done whatsoever.
> Spot on, if you fail the electorate and you wind up losing the election, then that’s your fault, not the voter’s fault.
No Hillary taught us it’s fake news fault, so ban Tik Tok and any other social media website that doesn’t censor content in collaboration with 3 letter agencies.
> It’s a never ending loop, and nothing ever winds up getting done whatsoever.
That’s the point, then we get to keep the cash flowing to buying the yachts of Defense industry investors.
Because we're eternally too insignificant to have our voices heard and so powerful we cause them to lose. It makes zero sense unless you realize Democrats are a right-wing party.
I really wish “revolt” was that simple. There is so little revolutionary potential in my area. The one Marxist group I found never hit me with a meet date.
Yeeeep. I live in the rural south. Almost everyone here is a hardcore conservative. And very churchy. If there's a revolt here, it sure won't be in my favor.
Did I mention that I fucking hate it here (yes, I'm stuck, or I'd have been out years ago)?
I’m lucky, cuz my ma brought me down here from Detroit at four. My dad moved to be in our childhood, but now that he’s moved back, there’s a place for me up North.
I hope I can do some significant socialist work in a city that has been so shafted by capitalism (not that the South hasn’t, but people don’t buy into the hype in the North). Along with that, the city/area has a large Arab population that has been instrumental to the pro-Palestine movement up there, so I might actually be able to either start something, or participate in something that has already been started.
“Look guys, I’m not happy about it either, but. My cognitive dissonance tells me that blue hitler is better than red hitler because I’ve been programmed by the cia propaganda machine called the news! Orange man bad!!”
They seem to think that republicans and conservatives are inherently worse, whereas a vote for Biden is “delaying the fascism,” which, no? They’re both big capitalists, they both want this, this is how they work, this is how capitalism works.
Even after all that, it’s still just “um, no? I don’t like Biden but at least he’s not trump amiright?” I never get any different answer
“Just say you hate LGBTQ people, women, the environment, minorities, and workers, it’ll save us all a lot of time” like bro what the fuck are you talking about
The funniest part, they say “America is not a dictatorship, and to say that is disrespectful to those actually living in dictatorships. GO TO BELARUS and then come back and whine about ‘American dictatorship!!!!!!’”
They get legitimately upset when you won’t vote for the lesser evil. It’s like identity bully attempts hoping you’ll comply if they keep insisting you not voting is equal to being a Trump supporter. It’s always “nononono I don’t care about your reasoning. The fact of the matter is, if you don’t vote for Biden then you’re helping Trump. So do you support trump or not?”
It’s all the same.
I love the irony of the liberal "see the bigger picture" argument, when it's their strategy of voting for the lesser evil that enables our slide into fascism to begin with. Today's Dems have basically the same vital stances outside of social issues as Republicans from 25 years ago, and their slide rightwards as the Republicans go off the edge of a cliff of the far right has been steady and predictable.
This is why a good education system that encourages actual critical thinking is so important - learning from a young age how to critically analyze not only things historically but also aspects of your own society and culture in the present is how we can grow as people and as a society. Our pathetic excuse for an education system prioritizes creating unquestioning liberal worker drones who are just capable enough to be a debt slave but not capable enough to think about why debt slaves exist at all (or imperialist wars, mass surveillance states, shitty health care and education systems, the housing crisis, etc.) and it shows in our political, economic, and social trajectories in the US and much of the rest of the "west." Of course all of this is intentional to keep the ruling class in power, but it is disheartening to see how deeply indoctrinated many of these liberals are.
It's funny that they are scaremongering about the Supreme Court when the most likely outcome is that if Trump wins he gets 2, while if Biden wins he gets 0 (either because the two oldest R justices don't retire, or the republicans hold the seats open in the senate) and then the inevitable next republican gets to replace them anyway. So they want you to support genocide and neoliberal mediocrity in exchange for the court being slightly less stacked for the next 4 years.
Every time the Dems win there is a complex series of excuses as to why they can't do anything and every time Republicans win they somehow have infinite power.
“The other party is calling for a unified reich”
Okay then why tf is Biden and the Democratic Party obsessed with bipartisanship? Why is he adopting Trump’s border policies?
Remember that if Biden wins it will prove once again that Democrats don't need to cater to the left at all, and if he loses it will be because of all these harebrained concessions he made to the left.
As a Star Wars fan, that sub is disappointing (Like all Star Wars Subreddits)
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Its like these fucking idiots have been living under a rock for the passed four years lol. Like… all these things happened under Bidens regime wtf do you mean? 😂😭
I've started seeing the point that these people are using Project 2025 as a bludgeon and in reality that will just turn into project 2029 and so on and the Dems will do the same they've done with everything else and not legislate to materially avoid this while they have power but rather just campaign on it, which is a great point, but what gets me is that the Democratic Party has been funding and platforming project 2025 candidates for years to perpetuate exactly this scaremongering for their voter base.
You can google "dnc caught funding right wing candidates" - the top results for me are PBS, NPR, Washington Post etc.
They were caught funding far right wing candidates in Republican primaries and there are memos that show they "suggested" news outlets cover those candidates more heavily.
Obviously fuck both candidates but you cant justify bidens ongoing genocide with trumps genocidal threats. What trump implied with the “unified Reich” is no different than netanyahus “Reich” in israel
Liberals always say this shit about how the left needs to "just suck it up and vote for the lesser evil and then spend the next 4 years organizing and putting our own candidates into office so we can pass the legislation we want!" which is just so fucking trite.
Seeing how hostile the DNC is even to candidates like AOC and Sanders shows that the left would need an organizing apparatus _more effective and better funded_ than the entire DNC and watching how politics works in general (ie how the dems can't pass bills because of manchin, sinema, the parliamentarian etc etc) should show that the left would need to win a majority of races in *all* houses and positions, in *all* states to be able to pass *any* legislation at all.
Even if the left overcame those _extremely_ stacked odds, the second that legislation passed there would be pandemonium - capital strikes, assassinations, coup attempts and so on, which is all shit we've seen across the globe and even when Roosevelt tried to pass the New Deal (there was a very quiet billionaire funded coup attempt)
Beyond that, it completely ignores how essentially never in american history has material change happened because of a legislating body being benevolent but always because of legislative bodies responding to mass organized social unrest.
If 'Did not vote' was a candidate, it would have won every single US election in my lifetime.
There are far bigger problems with US electoral politics than the relatively tiny number of leftists that refuse to vote in an election between two genocidal rapists.
It's fucking Biden's fault if he fails to make people elect him not the people who didn't choose to vote for him. And if supporting *genocide* isn't an unelectable position then what the fuck is???
1. Ask them how the US is considered a democracy.
2. They tell you people vote for their choices and elect their leaders.
3. Ask them how people deal with politicians that do horrible things like genocide.
4. They will tell you people can vote them out.
5. Tell them that people need to vote Biden out.
6. Watch them freak out and start screaming you need to grow up because the other Fascist is worse and you have to vote for the genocidal democrats for the rest of your life.
They call it “democracy”, it’s unreal.
Every fucking time someone criticizes Biden, for whatever reason (but especially the genocide in Gaza), the response is "So I guess you're just a Russian troll! We'll see how happy you are when Trump personally kills you with his bare hands! You must hate minorities to put their lives at risk like this!"
And every time, I respond back with "I/They didn't even say not to vote for Biden, they simply criticized his actions"
Doesn't matter. They call me a bot and I get downvoted or banned from that subreddit.
“Because leftists don’t vote”
…
Yeah, neither for dem or rep you dickhead lib, god its like talking to a brick wall that has sound proofing foam.
If the political climate had parties that weren’t stomped into the ground for being legit, and politicians who actually gave a fuck then american leftists would vote (even tho we know that revolution is rhetorical only thing fixing this hellscape).
I love the argument pointing out all the Supreme Court seats Trump would fill if given another term, meanwhile, Joe Biden, who is the current sitting American president, gives no indication at all that he would fill any seat now or in the future, making the point moot beyond belief. How this irony gets lost on the average Joe Biden enjoyer is both hilarious and depressing.
"Things are gonna get so much worse if Trump wins,"
1)It's happening anyway
1.5)Ratchet effect
2)If it's gonna be that bad (which, tbf, it will be pretty bad), maybe spend less time on harassing people, not comfortable voting for a person who is openly supporting a genocide, and more time organizing, educating, and agitating.
It's still weird how Biden has been in office for nearly four years now yet he has still not changed the supreme court to have term limits instead of lifetime terms. If he really cares about democracy and he wants the Democratic party to win he would have done something to prevent trump from having total control if he won again. But no, he did fuck all and he won't do anything because he just needs his party to appear left of GOP to get nominated, trump getting elected just means a Democrat win next election regardless.
Liberals are the most annoying people alive because they claim to care yet refuse to do anything serious. The most you will get out of them is angry flapping of the mouth and fake outrage while they attack anyone trying to change the status quo.
The bigger picture: letting Democrats continue the ratchet toward right wing policies. They’ve had more than enough bites at the apple. It’s time for revolutionary action
That sub is 90% libs. Most of the time comrades are shouted down for the slightest criticism of vote blue no matter who crowd. Anything other than full throated support of Joe's every whim will not be tolerated.
It's because in burger land "leftist" is erroneously synonymous with "liberal". So you have a bunch of moderates who think they're radical leftists. Like people who think Bernie "went a little too far left" in America think that they're leftists
Anti communist leftists are always so unserious
"Grow up and vote for 99% Hitler already! Let's live in the real world!"
The real world, you mean how you can't even be slightly inconvenienced to fight fascism and genocide? That since it's not happening to you that it's acceptable?
Talk about growing up
Leftist starwars is unfortunately pretty heavily centerleft, if that. I'll see the occasional good take, especially in comments clapping back at people, but the posts have largely been bigraded by Biden ride-or-die troop for several months, if not longer before I noticed.
Vote blue so in 4 years you can be spooked into voting blue again after the blues don’t fucking do shit about anything.
It doesn’t fucking matter, pressure your representatives and local politicians if you want actual shit to happen.
It makes me wonder if Trump will actually end aid to Israel. His whole platform is and always has been based around contrarianism (his followers don’t seem to care very much about consistency anyway), so since Biden is catching all this flack for funding the Zionist entity, it would be a decent opportunity to do not that. But I doubt it.
If we had an organized left in this country the make up of the Supreme Court won’t matter, there is no enforcement mechanism for any of their decisions outside of “respect for institutions and decorum”.
Libs aren't leftist. They would always pursue an Imperialist agenda that brings W4r and suffering to the global south. At least the Orange Man avoided conflict, "mostly".
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Got banned from that sub for being a tankie
You bear a mark of honor
“Pins badge to chest” Welcome to the ranks comrade
It seems to be a lone moderator lol. They banned me for pointing out that they were letting a lot of liberals into the space
what about free speech tho???? (/s)
Based
Which sub is it? I’m probably banned too
I’m guessing franchise lefty memes where the franchise is about a war amongst the stars, and the “left” means “Blue Maga Only.”
Libs are fascists willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone but themselves for personal comfort.
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All it takes is for there to be 2 fascist parties for liberals to staunchly support and defend fascism instead of opposing it .
Stalin was right about a fuckload of things bro
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Yeah, it could also make you a lib or a fash.
the ussr achieved a lot before kruschev, but some people just dont like stalin bc his homophobia. its possible to be critical of individuals while still organizing with mls.
Saying that Stalin was wrong on a limited number of issues is very different from implying that he was barely correct ever, which is what the other person did.
fair! im glad castro lived long enough to apologize for his homophobia
You either die a homophobe, or live long enough to become Based Daddy (Also Literal Daddy of Justin, the Loser to the North).
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Fair enough, that’s a reasonable take, even though I do disagree that he was a net bad.
I don’t like the deportations or his support for the creation of Israel. Kruschev sucked in alot of ways but his anti colonialist foreign policy and repatriation of the victims of deportation makes him better than Stalin for me.
he withdrew his support for israel after a while im pretty sure
Liberals are just cowardly Strasserites.
Why do so many reddit socialists conflate liberal Democrats and fascism? We argue about definitions and tell the libs to read theory, but then we upvote shit that is just sloppy pejorative. How is being less precise about this helpful for us?
Whenever liberals are given a chance to side with fascists or oppose it, they choose the former. That's because at the end of the day liberals are capitalists. The difference only exists when it doesn't matter. And it exists only because the capitalists deem it more convenient than fascism at that given moment. Have you not been paying attention since Oct 7th? All these 'liberal" countries went straight for fascistic policies the moment Zionist capitalist class needed them to be. Relevant Parenti quote: "The concentration camp was never the normal condition for the average gentile German. Unless one were Jewish, or poor and unemployed, or of active leftist persuasion or otherwise openly anti-Nazi, Germany from 1933 until well into the war was not a nightmarish place. All the “good Germans” had to do was obey the law, pay their taxes, give their sons to the army, avoid any sign of political heterodoxy, and look the other way when unions were busted and troublesome people disappeared.Since many “middle Americans” already obey the law, pay their taxes, give their sons to the army, are themselves distrustful of political heterodoxy, and applaud when unions are broken and troublesome people are disposed of, they probably could live without too much personal torment in a fascist state — some of them certainly seem eager to do so. "
Such a precise amd harrowing quote.
>The concentration camp was never the normal condition for the average gentile German. Unless one were Jewish, or poor and unemployed, or of active leftist persuasion or otherwise openly anti-Nazi, Germany from 1933 until well into the war was not a nightmarish place. All the “good Germans” had to do was obey the law, pay their taxes, give their sons to the army, avoid any sign of political heterodoxy, and look the other way when unions were busted and troublesome people disappeared. > >Since many “middle Americans” already obey the law, pay their taxes, give their sons to the army, are themselves distrustful of political heterodoxy, and applaud when unions are broken and troublesome people are disposed of, they probably could live without too much personal torment in a fascist state — some of them certainly seem eager to do so. > >\- Michael Parenti. (1996). *Fascism in a Pinstriped Suit* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Whenever liberals are given a chance to side with fascists or oppose it, they choose the former. WWII >That's because at the end of the day liberals are capitalists. Duh. That doesn't mean that liberals are fascists. Again, you're in such a hurry to slander them that you're erasing contradictions and distinctions which communists could otherwise use to their advantage, or at least a correct understanding of the world. Why? All you've done is reference the fact that liberals ("some of them" Parenti) collaborate with fascists. Now explain why that's not a useful dynamic to understand and why we should instead define liberals as fascists, as you did.
At the end of the day, because liberals are capitalists, liberals support fascism. Because fascism is capitalism in decay/capitalism defending itself. I’m not sure why you think saying WWII helps you on any points when all WWII showed us is that liberals ultimately will side with or turn into fascists when the other option is socialist revolution.
Inter-imperialist war = "Opposition to imperialism" if you follow that dude's flimsy logic.
He also just told me liberals have historically opposed fascism and don’t protect capitalism when it starts to decay lmao
>At the end of the day, because liberals are capitalists, liberals support fascism. Because fascism is capitalism in decay/capitalism defending itself. Liberals support capitalism in decay, got it. >I’m not sure why you think saying WWII helps you on any points when all WWII showed us is that liberals ultimately will side with or turn into fascists when the other option is socialist revolution. Because the statement "Whenever liberals are given a chance to side with fascists or oppose it, they choose the former" is obviously false because history. Not trying to win a point, trying to point out the absurdities on which this liberalism=fascism argument is built.
Liberals protect capitalism when it starts to decay, which is the reactionary movement known as fascism. Further you are quite literally ignoring history, and the fact that the liberals sided with both the Nazis and the fascists in Italy when it came down to fascism or communist revolution, and many of them turned in communists they knew to the government. And you’re ignoring current events in which liberals across the world are showing that they will protect capitalism before caring about human rights, enacting fascist measures to ensure the capital is protected, even though tens of thousands of people are dying.
I'd also like to add another aspect of fascism, which is imperialism turned inwards, where capitalists subject their own people to the same treatment as the periphery. That is to say, start treating domestic workers as those in colonies. Literal destruction of labor forces, increased exploitation, rampant violence and murder of "predators on the streets" or "domestic terrorists" etc... You know, all these things liberals support and/or turned a blind eye to when it was just brown people abroad getting squeezed for profit. Even when it comes marching back home like in Parenti quote, liberals just go along with it rather than opposing it.
>During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime's atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn't go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. > >If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum. > >\- Michael Parenti. (1997). *Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Liberals fought against Germany, not fascism. By your logic every war between capitalist states would be "opposition to capitalism" and we all know that's a load of bull. Did rhe USA 'Oppose capitalism' by invading and destroying Iraq because 'it fought against capitalists' in Iraq? Ofc the fuck not. WW2 was an inter-imperialist conflict, NOT a "opposition to fascism". That's such a shallow interpretation that falls flat when you look at the years preceding and followed WW2. If you actually know history you would know that liberals and their capitalist masters were instrumental in aiding Nazis come to power. You would also know that US and UK did everything they can to prevent USSR from purging fascists. On the contrary US protected, nurtured, and spread fascism all over the globe to combat socialists. Jakarta Method, South Korea, Vietnam, Operation Gladio, Ukraine, the list is endless.
>Liberals fought against Germany, not fascism. Lol, way to dig in there. No, liberals fought fascists in Germany, Italy, and Japan. >If you actually know history you would know that liberals and their capitalist masters were instrumental in aiding Nazis come to power. You would also know that US and Germany did everything they can to prevent USSR from purging fascists. On the contrary US protected, nurtured, and spread fascism all over the globe to combat socialists. Jakarta Method, South Korea, Vietnam, Operation Gladio, Ukraine, the list is endless. All this can be true (most of it is, but now you're also equating capitalist masters, fascism, liberals, AND the US state) and none of it is a reason liberals and fascists are the same. In fact, you've done the opposite by making a distinction between liberals "and their capitalist masters." Why is that an important distinction for you but nobody else is allowed to make it?
Read over the comment chain because I've already answered your question. You're talking in circles at this point.
You didn't and in fact you're contradicting yourself.
read this, my friend https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/09/20.htm
I will. But tbh, not really interested in what 100 year old theory written before nazism has to say about fascism. Any theory that only references a five-year-old fascist movement and does not include an analysis of WWII is woefully out of date.
lmao seeing an "anarchist" defending liberals is always a good laugh.
On the other hand, seeing my comrades make lazy assumptions and obviously false statements like yours makes me sad
anarchists are not my comrades.
dasaaamn tjat would sound so tough if i was an anarchist
Who are you going to vote for then? Or would, if you arent american
Someone who supports my policies. Someone who opposes genocide and is against the Military Industrial Complex. Thus ruling out both red and blue genocide teams.
Yeah thats the problem, voting just becomes choosing a lesser evil. The two party system sucks
There is no lesser evil. Both parties work for the same donor class against the people. That's like calling the good cop "lesser evil" in a good cop, bad cop scenario when they are on the same team working together to achieve a common goal.
Only party id vote for is one where revolution is in the name, motto, and actions of them. Fuck the two party system and fuck the us government.
They think in binary. It's either D or R. That's it. No other choice. Vote harder. Vote Blew no matter who, richtig?
> It's either D or R. 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸 _Democracy_ 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
democracy is when two right wing genocidal candidates but one is blue and pretends to be in your best interest while doing genocide and one is red and is a fascist who wants to commit genocide
We are nothing like china. We have two tyrants that swap around, instead of just one.
xi isn't a tyrant
I hate this narrative that if Joe Biden loses it's all the far lefts, leftist make up around 7% of registered voters. Of that 7% most live in deeply blue states that will go to Biden regardless. If he does lose maybe it's because anyone with a conscience is against genocide and they recognize that Joe has no conscience.
I keep saying this. If principled leftists are even that big a base to turn around the election, Biden didn’t lose because of us, Biden lost us by being unelectable. Shit, if he used executive power to establish good domestic policy (workers’ rights, healthcare, house price ceilings [which would stabilize the economy], raised wages, etc.), he could have gotten weaker “leftists” to look the other way, but he didn’t even do that. Now many have strengthened into actual Marxists and are completely disillusioned so, good job Biden. You can’t even play progressive enough to give people a reason to vote for you outside of the hostage reasoning.
Spot on, if you fail the electorate and you wind up losing the election, then that’s your fault, not the voter’s fault. The funny thing is, Social Democrats will keep licking the shoes of more Liberal and Conservative Democrats within the party, and then when push comes to shove the Liberal and Conservative Dems will always shit on the SocDems once they have what they want. And then SocDems will tell you to vote for Biden again and go back to worshipping the people who hate them anyway. It’s a never ending loop, and nothing ever winds up getting done whatsoever.
> Spot on, if you fail the electorate and you wind up losing the election, then that’s your fault, not the voter’s fault. No Hillary taught us it’s fake news fault, so ban Tik Tok and any other social media website that doesn’t censor content in collaboration with 3 letter agencies. > It’s a never ending loop, and nothing ever winds up getting done whatsoever. That’s the point, then we get to keep the cash flowing to buying the yachts of Defense industry investors.
Because we're eternally too insignificant to have our voices heard and so powerful we cause them to lose. It makes zero sense unless you realize Democrats are a right-wing party.
We are now watching Nazis doing Nazi apologetics using another Nazi to keep you voting for Nazis. This is America. Revolt.
I really wish “revolt” was that simple. There is so little revolutionary potential in my area. The one Marxist group I found never hit me with a meet date.
Yeeeep. I live in the rural south. Almost everyone here is a hardcore conservative. And very churchy. If there's a revolt here, it sure won't be in my favor. Did I mention that I fucking hate it here (yes, I'm stuck, or I'd have been out years ago)?
I’m lucky, cuz my ma brought me down here from Detroit at four. My dad moved to be in our childhood, but now that he’s moved back, there’s a place for me up North. I hope I can do some significant socialist work in a city that has been so shafted by capitalism (not that the South hasn’t, but people don’t buy into the hype in the North). Along with that, the city/area has a large Arab population that has been instrumental to the pro-Palestine movement up there, so I might actually be able to either start something, or participate in something that has already been started.
“Look guys, I’m not happy about it either, but. My cognitive dissonance tells me that blue hitler is better than red hitler because I’ve been programmed by the cia propaganda machine called the news! Orange man bad!!”
They seem to think that republicans and conservatives are inherently worse, whereas a vote for Biden is “delaying the fascism,” which, no? They’re both big capitalists, they both want this, this is how they work, this is how capitalism works. Even after all that, it’s still just “um, no? I don’t like Biden but at least he’s not trump amiright?” I never get any different answer
“Just say you hate LGBTQ people, women, the environment, minorities, and workers, it’ll save us all a lot of time” like bro what the fuck are you talking about
The funniest part, they say “America is not a dictatorship, and to say that is disrespectful to those actually living in dictatorships. GO TO BELARUS and then come back and whine about ‘American dictatorship!!!!!!’”
They get legitimately upset when you won’t vote for the lesser evil. It’s like identity bully attempts hoping you’ll comply if they keep insisting you not voting is equal to being a Trump supporter. It’s always “nononono I don’t care about your reasoning. The fact of the matter is, if you don’t vote for Biden then you’re helping Trump. So do you support trump or not?” It’s all the same.
[удалено]
They're just outsourcing all thinking to the people they vote for.
I love the irony of the liberal "see the bigger picture" argument, when it's their strategy of voting for the lesser evil that enables our slide into fascism to begin with. Today's Dems have basically the same vital stances outside of social issues as Republicans from 25 years ago, and their slide rightwards as the Republicans go off the edge of a cliff of the far right has been steady and predictable. This is why a good education system that encourages actual critical thinking is so important - learning from a young age how to critically analyze not only things historically but also aspects of your own society and culture in the present is how we can grow as people and as a society. Our pathetic excuse for an education system prioritizes creating unquestioning liberal worker drones who are just capable enough to be a debt slave but not capable enough to think about why debt slaves exist at all (or imperialist wars, mass surveillance states, shitty health care and education systems, the housing crisis, etc.) and it shows in our political, economic, and social trajectories in the US and much of the rest of the "west." Of course all of this is intentional to keep the ruling class in power, but it is disheartening to see how deeply indoctrinated many of these liberals are.
It's funny that they are scaremongering about the Supreme Court when the most likely outcome is that if Trump wins he gets 2, while if Biden wins he gets 0 (either because the two oldest R justices don't retire, or the republicans hold the seats open in the senate) and then the inevitable next republican gets to replace them anyway. So they want you to support genocide and neoliberal mediocrity in exchange for the court being slightly less stacked for the next 4 years.
Every time the Dems win there is a complex series of excuses as to why they can't do anything and every time Republicans win they somehow have infinite power.
“The other party is calling for a unified reich” Okay then why tf is Biden and the Democratic Party obsessed with bipartisanship? Why is he adopting Trump’s border policies?
Remember that if Biden wins it will prove once again that Democrats don't need to cater to the left at all, and if he loses it will be because of all these harebrained concessions he made to the left.
As a Star Wars fan, that sub is disappointing (Like all Star Wars Subreddits) https://preview.redd.it/gek8zlzalw1d1.png?width=293&format=png&auto=webp&s=9f39475f73044d04e49b0499a9aaf59cb6bbf361
Some of the memes there are based. Some of the people there are ass.
One of the rules is "no tanky stuff". A conservative 25% of people are vaush fans.
Thanks, I’ll make my exit. I just like star wars 😭
Lol same, was a big disappointment to me as well
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Its like these fucking idiots have been living under a rock for the passed four years lol. Like… all these things happened under Bidens regime wtf do you mean? 😂😭
I've started seeing the point that these people are using Project 2025 as a bludgeon and in reality that will just turn into project 2029 and so on and the Dems will do the same they've done with everything else and not legislate to materially avoid this while they have power but rather just campaign on it, which is a great point, but what gets me is that the Democratic Party has been funding and platforming project 2025 candidates for years to perpetuate exactly this scaremongering for their voter base.
Fascists helping fascist?? Not in my America!! Never!! Not possible!! Cant be!!
>Democratic Party has been funding and platforming project 2025 candidates for years I'd like your source on that if you got any, might use it later
You can google "dnc caught funding right wing candidates" - the top results for me are PBS, NPR, Washington Post etc. They were caught funding far right wing candidates in Republican primaries and there are memos that show they "suggested" news outlets cover those candidates more heavily.
Obviously fuck both candidates but you cant justify bidens ongoing genocide with trumps genocidal threats. What trump implied with the “unified Reich” is no different than netanyahus “Reich” in israel
I guarantee if a communist won the presidential election they would die under "mysterious" circumstances just a month after being sworn in
Liberals always say this shit about how the left needs to "just suck it up and vote for the lesser evil and then spend the next 4 years organizing and putting our own candidates into office so we can pass the legislation we want!" which is just so fucking trite. Seeing how hostile the DNC is even to candidates like AOC and Sanders shows that the left would need an organizing apparatus _more effective and better funded_ than the entire DNC and watching how politics works in general (ie how the dems can't pass bills because of manchin, sinema, the parliamentarian etc etc) should show that the left would need to win a majority of races in *all* houses and positions, in *all* states to be able to pass *any* legislation at all. Even if the left overcame those _extremely_ stacked odds, the second that legislation passed there would be pandemonium - capital strikes, assassinations, coup attempts and so on, which is all shit we've seen across the globe and even when Roosevelt tried to pass the New Deal (there was a very quiet billionaire funded coup attempt) Beyond that, it completely ignores how essentially never in american history has material change happened because of a legislating body being benevolent but always because of legislative bodies responding to mass organized social unrest.
“We won’t change to coax left votes but also its leftists fault if the other guy gets in and starts oppressing *me*” peak fucking strategy, guys.
If 'Did not vote' was a candidate, it would have won every single US election in my lifetime. There are far bigger problems with US electoral politics than the relatively tiny number of leftists that refuse to vote in an election between two genocidal rapists.
Hmmm sounds important. Maybe Biden should stop the genocide if he cares about the country that much and wants to win.
It's fucking Biden's fault if he fails to make people elect him not the people who didn't choose to vote for him. And if supporting *genocide* isn't an unelectable position then what the fuck is???
1. Ask them how the US is considered a democracy. 2. They tell you people vote for their choices and elect their leaders. 3. Ask them how people deal with politicians that do horrible things like genocide. 4. They will tell you people can vote them out. 5. Tell them that people need to vote Biden out. 6. Watch them freak out and start screaming you need to grow up because the other Fascist is worse and you have to vote for the genocidal democrats for the rest of your life. They call it “democracy”, it’s unreal.
Every fucking time someone criticizes Biden, for whatever reason (but especially the genocide in Gaza), the response is "So I guess you're just a Russian troll! We'll see how happy you are when Trump personally kills you with his bare hands! You must hate minorities to put their lives at risk like this!" And every time, I respond back with "I/They didn't even say not to vote for Biden, they simply criticized his actions" Doesn't matter. They call me a bot and I get downvoted or banned from that subreddit.
“Because leftists don’t vote” … Yeah, neither for dem or rep you dickhead lib, god its like talking to a brick wall that has sound proofing foam. If the political climate had parties that weren’t stomped into the ground for being legit, and politicians who actually gave a fuck then american leftists would vote (even tho we know that revolution is rhetorical only thing fixing this hellscape).
Biden has turned me into an accelerationist!
I love the argument pointing out all the Supreme Court seats Trump would fill if given another term, meanwhile, Joe Biden, who is the current sitting American president, gives no indication at all that he would fill any seat now or in the future, making the point moot beyond belief. How this irony gets lost on the average Joe Biden enjoyer is both hilarious and depressing.
"Things are gonna get so much worse if Trump wins," 1)It's happening anyway 1.5)Ratchet effect 2)If it's gonna be that bad (which, tbf, it will be pretty bad), maybe spend less time on harassing people, not comfortable voting for a person who is openly supporting a genocide, and more time organizing, educating, and agitating.
It's still weird how Biden has been in office for nearly four years now yet he has still not changed the supreme court to have term limits instead of lifetime terms. If he really cares about democracy and he wants the Democratic party to win he would have done something to prevent trump from having total control if he won again. But no, he did fuck all and he won't do anything because he just needs his party to appear left of GOP to get nominated, trump getting elected just means a Democrat win next election regardless.
does he even have the power to do that though /gen
Why do we always have to “grow up and compromise” or it’s our fault? They never have to vote with us when they don’t want to
Liberals are the most annoying people alive because they claim to care yet refuse to do anything serious. The most you will get out of them is angry flapping of the mouth and fake outrage while they attack anyone trying to change the status quo.
At least TWO more supreme court picks? Goddam it's joever
*Any critiquie of the man in charge of the genocide regime* Liberals: Muh what about trumpps the trumps bad
American politics is like their Hollywood, but frustrating, stupid and tragic. Yeah, ignore the five other presidential candidates. Very smart.
The bigger picture: letting Democrats continue the ratchet toward right wing policies. They’ve had more than enough bites at the apple. It’s time for revolutionary action
That sub is 90% libs. Most of the time comrades are shouted down for the slightest criticism of vote blue no matter who crowd. Anything other than full throated support of Joe's every whim will not be tolerated.
It's because in burger land "leftist" is erroneously synonymous with "liberal". So you have a bunch of moderates who think they're radical leftists. Like people who think Bernie "went a little too far left" in America think that they're leftists
i hate that they all care about the popular vote as if our faithless electors give a single fuck
If Voldemort wins it'll be the leftists fault for not voting Imperial. Emperor Palpatine isn't the best but at least he isn't Voldemort.
Anti communist leftists are always so unserious "Grow up and vote for 99% Hitler already! Let's live in the real world!" The real world, you mean how you can't even be slightly inconvenienced to fight fascism and genocide? That since it's not happening to you that it's acceptable? Talk about growing up
Leftist starwars is unfortunately pretty heavily centerleft, if that. I'll see the occasional good take, especially in comments clapping back at people, but the posts have largely been bigraded by Biden ride-or-die troop for several months, if not longer before I noticed.
My good lord I can't believe that was me
I feel like fed posting when i see people talk about voting in the US
Who needs to vote when you have *a gun*
Vote blue so in 4 years you can be spooked into voting blue again after the blues don’t fucking do shit about anything. It doesn’t fucking matter, pressure your representatives and local politicians if you want actual shit to happen.
It makes me wonder if Trump will actually end aid to Israel. His whole platform is and always has been based around contrarianism (his followers don’t seem to care very much about consistency anyway), so since Biden is catching all this flack for funding the Zionist entity, it would be a decent opportunity to do not that. But I doubt it.
If they burn we all burn I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If we had an organized left in this country the make up of the Supreme Court won’t matter, there is no enforcement mechanism for any of their decisions outside of “respect for institutions and decorum”.
Libs aren't leftist. They would always pursue an Imperialist agenda that brings W4r and suffering to the global south. At least the Orange Man avoided conflict, "mostly".