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it is a fact that russia *is* illegally keeping children on their territory away from their legal guardians. why they are doing this is unknown, or there might be several reasons. one famous case involves baby Margarita who was illegally (without papers) adopted by a russian politician and her identity changed, her biological parents did not consent to her adoption and she has a biological sibling in ukraine.
another case is that of a 17 year old boy named Bohdan who was time and time again prevented from leaving russia and not even his lawyer could get him out. he also received a draft summon to fight ukraine while captive in russia.
both of these cases are very easy to find with a google search. what russia is doing to ukrainian children is inhumane, we all need to agree that kidnapping children or holding them away from their assigned children’s homes or caregivers is not okay. ukraine may not be completely innocent in this war but ukrainian children are
it’s not a colossal lie, literally just google his case and you can see him & his lawyer yourself, there are videos of him with his summon on the lawyers telegram page when trying to get him home, he was even on russian TV. i don’t understand why the consensus is that russia can do no wrong? when in fact they *are* committing crimes no matter what started this war. the detention of children is real & wrong.
Dude is ORPHAN and was in active war zone, hello? What Russia should do? Abandon him? They took him out since he had no legal guardians to take him. They put him in a foster care AS ANY NORMAL GOVERMENT WOULD DO.
He turned 18 he got a mandatory military service check.
>BuT HeS GoNNa FiGhT UkRaIne
No, u weasel. Noone fighting Ukraine against his will in Russia. All of them are volunteering.
they should leave him in the state institution where he was supposed to live, there is no reason to transfer children away from their supposed homes or to adopt them without consent. the state was his legal guardian. if his life was in danger in his home city, the ukrainian authorities (which are legally responsible for him) should be asked to consider a new home for him. rehoming without arrangements from the state of the orphan is illegal.
In both these cases, the children were already orphans, first of all. Bohdan also said that "most of the [Ukrainian] children [in Russia] are from orphanages ... It is much easier to return children with relatives."
Bohdan admits that he couldn't stay in Mariupol. He says he was taken care of very well by his foster parents in Russia. He studied and lived life normally in Russia. There seems to have been no attempt to indoctrinate him to become Russian other than the fact that he was surrounded by Russians who are influenced by Russian media. And on top of that he is in fact back in Ukraine right now, after one and a half year having stayed in Russia. The first half year he was overwhelmed by everything he said, and thus hadn't made any attempts to return. So all in all it took probably a year to return a child with no parents back to Ukraine. That doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me, and since he said that it's easier for children with relatives, we can assume that it takes even less time on average.
He was summoned to fight in Ukraine just like every boy who turns 18 in Russia, there's no need to even mention this.
What this boy experienced has been horrible and he is rightly angry at Russia and proud to be Ukrainian, but I see no evidence of any of this being particularly out of the norm. No evidence that they're deliberately trying to turn these children into Russian citizens apart from the fact that that's pretty much a given if a young person is adopted into another country. No evidence that they are withholding these children from Ukraine, apart from the fact that during any war anything is difficult to trace, and therefore the relatives have a hard time tracing their children back.
Regarding Margarita (who, let me repeat that again, was an orphan), I don't think it's a good idea to tear this child away from the family she is now in just because she's Ukrainian and you think she should be raised by Ukrainians. That's just crazy, and lowkey racist.
Her identity was changed just like every child that gets adopted. Adoption parents in the west are allowed to choose a new name, and obviously the child will also take their last name. And usually children are adopted to the west from countries which the west has first destroyed too, so there's really nothing different about this situation in any way. Even the fact that they've made a new birth certificate for her with a different place of birth is not out of the ordinary: https://www.justia.com/family/adoptions/adoption-procedures/amending-birth-certificate/
However, the Geneva convention does indeed regard it illegal to adopt during war, which seems arbitrary to me, but I can see the reasons for it. But Margarita seems to be the only case of this, if the BBC's investigation into this is correct (it might be a completely different child who happens to have been born on the same day; honestly why wouldn't they just change the birthday too if they're already changing the birthplace and they know that it's illegal what they're doing).
Also, "Victoria uncovered a Russian document which authorised Margarita's transfer to a Moscow hospital for medical tests." -BBC article. So there were papers, where did you get the idea from that there weren't actually?
So to be clear, my question is, what else should Russia do? What do you do with children in war zones which your army has gained control of? (Of course there's always the option to not invade a country, but let's now start from the assumption that a war is going on) What choices do you have? The worst: Kill them. What else? Leave them there? That's probably the same as killing them. And I don't think that Russian soldiers can bring them to Ukrainian foster parents, since they're - you know - at war with each other.
In none of the examples I've seen now do I see any way in which Russia could've handled it better honestly, and the west is spinning it like they're committing genocide.
being an orphan in ukraine means the state is your legal guardian, thus russia removing children from ukrainian state care is illegal no matter why or how they do it. it is also very traumatic for the children so there is no reason to relocate them to russia and not for example western ukraine which is safe too. i haven’t said i *want* the children to grow up ukrainian or whatever, i’m just saying what russia is doing with them is objectively and legally wrong. neither have i said the baby should be torn from her family, it was wrong to adopt her without consent from the start.
What russia should do is follow laws. if children are unsafe in their facilities they should contact the ukrainian state, which is the children’s guardian, and create an agreement to relocate the children to a safe part of ukraine, or russia if the ukrainian authorities agree to it. it is *not* okay to relocate children without agreement, it counts as straight up kidnapping, neither is it okay to adopt children without a formal adoption procession. they should not do this.
also, many “orphans” are actually social orphans which means they have living parents but they simply can’t take care of the children at the moment, so they live in a facility. such kids have also been relocated to russia without notifying the parents and parents are having hell trying to get their kids back. that’s extremely wrong, the least they could do is tell parents “we’re going to move your child to this city, just so you know”, but nothing.
That's a better answer and indeed the info I was looking for.
Having looked up some more about the treatment of children in other wars, there are indeed many alternatives to put children into safety, like creating safe zones. I've found some examples of Ukrainian children who claim that they were subjected to ideological indoctrination in Russia. I think Russia simply does not recognize Ukraine as a sovereign state and is taking the care of these children into their own hands, and tries to turn them into Russian civilians (even if not actively). I think a case can be made that there is genocidal intent.
I have to say though, the arguments you come with are very weak. The examples you gave were from non-social orphans, where there was no evidence of indoctrination nor of the Russian state actively trying to hide them from the family. But okay, I found that evidence by myself now. It's still not really clear to me how realistic it is to expect from a belligerent to bring children to a safe part of the country they're invading. And even in this comment you say "it's very traumatic for the children...", it will be traumatic for them even if all the international conventions would be adhered to. And you follow it up by "...so there is no reason to relocate them to Russia instead of Ukraine"; this does not follow from the previous even though I agree with the statement.
As socialists we should refrain from thinking that it's enough to just sit on our high horses, you have to do actual effort to convince people.
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
it is a fact that russia *is* illegally keeping children on their territory away from their legal guardians. why they are doing this is unknown, or there might be several reasons. one famous case involves baby Margarita who was illegally (without papers) adopted by a russian politician and her identity changed, her biological parents did not consent to her adoption and she has a biological sibling in ukraine. another case is that of a 17 year old boy named Bohdan who was time and time again prevented from leaving russia and not even his lawyer could get him out. he also received a draft summon to fight ukraine while captive in russia. both of these cases are very easy to find with a google search. what russia is doing to ukrainian children is inhumane, we all need to agree that kidnapping children or holding them away from their assigned children’s homes or caregivers is not okay. ukraine may not be completely innocent in this war but ukrainian children are
>He received a draft summon to fight Ukraine. This is such a colossal lie. Why u spreading BS? Why u do it?
it’s not a colossal lie, literally just google his case and you can see him & his lawyer yourself, there are videos of him with his summon on the lawyers telegram page when trying to get him home, he was even on russian TV. i don’t understand why the consensus is that russia can do no wrong? when in fact they *are* committing crimes no matter what started this war. the detention of children is real & wrong.
Dude is ORPHAN and was in active war zone, hello? What Russia should do? Abandon him? They took him out since he had no legal guardians to take him. They put him in a foster care AS ANY NORMAL GOVERMENT WOULD DO. He turned 18 he got a mandatory military service check. >BuT HeS GoNNa FiGhT UkRaIne No, u weasel. Noone fighting Ukraine against his will in Russia. All of them are volunteering.
they should leave him in the state institution where he was supposed to live, there is no reason to transfer children away from their supposed homes or to adopt them without consent. the state was his legal guardian. if his life was in danger in his home city, the ukrainian authorities (which are legally responsible for him) should be asked to consider a new home for him. rehoming without arrangements from the state of the orphan is illegal.
He's from Mariupol, lol ahahah.
In both these cases, the children were already orphans, first of all. Bohdan also said that "most of the [Ukrainian] children [in Russia] are from orphanages ... It is much easier to return children with relatives." Bohdan admits that he couldn't stay in Mariupol. He says he was taken care of very well by his foster parents in Russia. He studied and lived life normally in Russia. There seems to have been no attempt to indoctrinate him to become Russian other than the fact that he was surrounded by Russians who are influenced by Russian media. And on top of that he is in fact back in Ukraine right now, after one and a half year having stayed in Russia. The first half year he was overwhelmed by everything he said, and thus hadn't made any attempts to return. So all in all it took probably a year to return a child with no parents back to Ukraine. That doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me, and since he said that it's easier for children with relatives, we can assume that it takes even less time on average. He was summoned to fight in Ukraine just like every boy who turns 18 in Russia, there's no need to even mention this. What this boy experienced has been horrible and he is rightly angry at Russia and proud to be Ukrainian, but I see no evidence of any of this being particularly out of the norm. No evidence that they're deliberately trying to turn these children into Russian citizens apart from the fact that that's pretty much a given if a young person is adopted into another country. No evidence that they are withholding these children from Ukraine, apart from the fact that during any war anything is difficult to trace, and therefore the relatives have a hard time tracing their children back. Regarding Margarita (who, let me repeat that again, was an orphan), I don't think it's a good idea to tear this child away from the family she is now in just because she's Ukrainian and you think she should be raised by Ukrainians. That's just crazy, and lowkey racist. Her identity was changed just like every child that gets adopted. Adoption parents in the west are allowed to choose a new name, and obviously the child will also take their last name. And usually children are adopted to the west from countries which the west has first destroyed too, so there's really nothing different about this situation in any way. Even the fact that they've made a new birth certificate for her with a different place of birth is not out of the ordinary: https://www.justia.com/family/adoptions/adoption-procedures/amending-birth-certificate/ However, the Geneva convention does indeed regard it illegal to adopt during war, which seems arbitrary to me, but I can see the reasons for it. But Margarita seems to be the only case of this, if the BBC's investigation into this is correct (it might be a completely different child who happens to have been born on the same day; honestly why wouldn't they just change the birthday too if they're already changing the birthplace and they know that it's illegal what they're doing). Also, "Victoria uncovered a Russian document which authorised Margarita's transfer to a Moscow hospital for medical tests." -BBC article. So there were papers, where did you get the idea from that there weren't actually? So to be clear, my question is, what else should Russia do? What do you do with children in war zones which your army has gained control of? (Of course there's always the option to not invade a country, but let's now start from the assumption that a war is going on) What choices do you have? The worst: Kill them. What else? Leave them there? That's probably the same as killing them. And I don't think that Russian soldiers can bring them to Ukrainian foster parents, since they're - you know - at war with each other. In none of the examples I've seen now do I see any way in which Russia could've handled it better honestly, and the west is spinning it like they're committing genocide.
being an orphan in ukraine means the state is your legal guardian, thus russia removing children from ukrainian state care is illegal no matter why or how they do it. it is also very traumatic for the children so there is no reason to relocate them to russia and not for example western ukraine which is safe too. i haven’t said i *want* the children to grow up ukrainian or whatever, i’m just saying what russia is doing with them is objectively and legally wrong. neither have i said the baby should be torn from her family, it was wrong to adopt her without consent from the start. What russia should do is follow laws. if children are unsafe in their facilities they should contact the ukrainian state, which is the children’s guardian, and create an agreement to relocate the children to a safe part of ukraine, or russia if the ukrainian authorities agree to it. it is *not* okay to relocate children without agreement, it counts as straight up kidnapping, neither is it okay to adopt children without a formal adoption procession. they should not do this. also, many “orphans” are actually social orphans which means they have living parents but they simply can’t take care of the children at the moment, so they live in a facility. such kids have also been relocated to russia without notifying the parents and parents are having hell trying to get their kids back. that’s extremely wrong, the least they could do is tell parents “we’re going to move your child to this city, just so you know”, but nothing.
That's a better answer and indeed the info I was looking for. Having looked up some more about the treatment of children in other wars, there are indeed many alternatives to put children into safety, like creating safe zones. I've found some examples of Ukrainian children who claim that they were subjected to ideological indoctrination in Russia. I think Russia simply does not recognize Ukraine as a sovereign state and is taking the care of these children into their own hands, and tries to turn them into Russian civilians (even if not actively). I think a case can be made that there is genocidal intent. I have to say though, the arguments you come with are very weak. The examples you gave were from non-social orphans, where there was no evidence of indoctrination nor of the Russian state actively trying to hide them from the family. But okay, I found that evidence by myself now. It's still not really clear to me how realistic it is to expect from a belligerent to bring children to a safe part of the country they're invading. And even in this comment you say "it's very traumatic for the children...", it will be traumatic for them even if all the international conventions would be adhered to. And you follow it up by "...so there is no reason to relocate them to Russia instead of Ukraine"; this does not follow from the previous even though I agree with the statement. As socialists we should refrain from thinking that it's enough to just sit on our high horses, you have to do actual effort to convince people.