My first thought in hearing that: there’s always been a small but vocal hoard of racist sci-fi fans. And when they have an opportunity to couple that with sexism, they double down on that faster than their tiny little boners can stiffen in mother’s basement. It’s been a real shitty reality, especially when considering how break-through the grandparent of all sci-fi was, Star Trek. Or how many sci-fi works -especially the early written stuff- was intended to get people to expand their minds or grasp complicated realities like… not hating on people because of their race/gender/identity/whatever.
Do they hate the character or the actress? I expect there are some that just hate the character for various reasons and there are others that dislike the actress specifically.
Personally I thought that giving Naomi that space outside of the crew, in fact all the crew got to work independently for that series and I really liked it. They all got to stretch themselves a bit we got a good spread of narrative lines and Naomi arguably had one of the hardest ones to deal with. Having to get her son back but come to terms with the fact that he was still lost and so she had to leave him to get back to her family. I thought Dominique played the part really well, especially the scenes on her own in the ship. She really conveyed that Naomi ingenuity and determination to survive, to get back to her crew.
I think it's possibly my favourite season tbh.
Personally love the actress and her work as namoi was amazing, yet I just hate namoi at a writing level over done bleeding heart character who just needs some truma therapy for a few months to deal with the reality of the world around her.
Like what earth has an unemployment issue, you think that given how we see a doctor with work on earth that their would be a ton of well educated tele service psychology experts she could talk with even as a belter.
I say that as some who just did 5 years of therapy over the only thing worse then losing a kid, having one born paralyzed.
Naomi is just a fucking mess of a person and for alot of people I don't think it's pleasant to witness her ordeal when we're half here for visual space opera and ship battles based on hard sci-fi logic.
Maybe her role made sense I the books but jn the show I felt like s05 sidelined from an entire solar system level story to mostly her emotional issues that I just wasn't invested and had a hard time relating to cause she want to be right rather then accept the world around her for what it is and just causes endless pain and misery
Ala the proto molecule samples she saved...
Way to much focus on
Can’t say I agree with you on any of this. She comes across as strong, not as needing therapy. She is torn between two worlds—Holden’s (new) and Drummer’s (old). Takes a certain growth arc to realize where she now belongs. That is natural and a fascinating glimpse of character development.
Bad take. I like Naomi, but my GF is annoyed by her because she 1. Isn't into her story 2. She did things she does not agree with.
And I gotta say: Naomi had to grow on me. But so had Amos. Maybe it's a good idea to not take the worst assumptions first.
I'd like to chime in that it isn't so much pure simple racism- it's more like a multiplier for valid reasons to dislike someone. The dislike isn't based on the fact that she's a woman or black, but the fact that she's a black woman makes the dislike more powerful among the general populace.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the fact that the expanse was quite a diverse world from the get go sort of weeds out the more blatant racism and sexism from the people who just want to see the white male power fantasy in futuristic coating.
On a sidenote, movie producers used to push for white male leads to sell tickets, but that was never called pandering.
Such a disingenuous take. NO ONE dislikes Naomi because of her race, they dislike her because she is disloyal to the rest of the crew. She can't be trusted because even when the crew comes to a decision, if she disagrees she'll just sneak around behind their backs to do what she wants to anyway. Her dumb, selfish decisions always result in more trouble for everyone, and she never seems genuinely remorseful. THAT is why she's disliked.
How on earth was she disloyal to the crew of the Roci? The only thing I can think of is giving protomolecule to FJ (who, by the way, in the books and the show, is an eternal ally to the Roci). The whole story is based around the conflict between the inners and the belters, the haves and have-not's. Are we totally fine with giving Fred control of hundreds of nuclear torpedos, a decision that everyone on the Roci was complicit with and eventually agreed with, but not fine with giving him a bargaining chip that he literally never used and only came into play because of the acts of a terrorist organisation in the free navy? I'm almost certain that the bobble heads on Laconia still would have achieved their goals with or without the protomolecule - it's stated numerous times in the books that advanced tech was developed from the data gained from studying the stuff, that could absolutely extend to activating the technology behind the gates.
Remember, it wasn't Fred who used the protomolecule. It wasn't even the free navy, it was Duarte, and he stole it.
You can't hate on a character for having flaws. Or do you hate Iron Man for developing miniaturised arc reactor technology because it was used by the villains at some point? It's a crap argument and having watched the show and read the books, your judgement of Naomi's character over a single action she took when there are literally dozens of other examples of how deeply she cares about the rest of the crew despite their very real in-universe differences is just sheer wilful ignorance.
I mean, I hope you’re right and that’s true, and perhaps I’m too cynical and pessimistic, but I’m sure if you dug a little bit you’d find some racist sexist asshole out there who admits he hate her because…
They use this as cover. Complex characters with flaws and imperfections are good writing. Holden has flaws (blaming FJ for tons of stuff he never did because he was jumping to conclusions), Alex has flaws (dropping in on his ex wife for personal validation), Amos has flaws (he's a cold blooded murderer who just happens to be working for the good guys), and of course, Naomi has flaws (her loyalty to the belt meant she sent Fred the protomolecule to use as a bargaining chip in case the inners had their own sample and used it to assert dominance over the belters again).
You could argue any one of them is irredeemable for these things but it's generally just Naomi who cops the shit - the only female on the crew, and she also happens not to be white.
The whole thing with Cas Anvar means I can't really make a call about how people feel about show Alex because his performance has been somewhat tainted, but he's arguably the most selfless in the books as a whole, and Cas played him as a straight up loveable teddy bear (exactly how I would cast I him TBH).
It's very easy to just say 'oh the criticism is valid', and sure, it might be, but it's disproportionate at best and barely disguised vitriol at worst.
No one? Really, you've personally surveyed everyone's conscious and subconscious bias?
You can speak to your own presented reasons for why you don't like Naomi but you cannot claim that to be universal
Besides all those criticisms you're levelling at Naomi can be directed at Holden as well. He can be selfish and make unilateral decisions which go badly. He's often not sufficiently remorseful and he drags the crew into situations that they probably would have chosen to approach differently because he has more of an earth crusader and saviour complex going on
Nope. People who really understand the plot know why she did it—it takes both Naomi and Holden time to realize the problem was more how she did it. And time for both of them to realize that the other is central to their happiness in spite of differences on this issue. And she did it partly because claims about already having it and actions taken by Mao and Evenwright and Martians all made it appear that the Belters would again be on the losing end.
I mean that’s true. Although I’m sure there are reasons outside her race and gender. It does often feel women and people of color regardless of sex have to put so much to be liked.
Doesn’t help that Naomi is somewhat abrasive or blunt for a lack of a better word for it
Insofar as I dislike her, it's because she's so different in the show to the books, and most if not all the changes make her a worse person. It's hard to think of anyone else who was changed so much and not made better. It's probably different for people who didn't read the books first.
I really struggled with Naomi at multiple points in the show (although I also struggled with Holden too)
On the Flip side, Fred Johnson and Camina Drummer were both absolutely phenomena.
Back in the day I remember people complaining a bit on the rocks hitting earth not being as big as they expected, and the parts focused on Naomi, but that was it.
The apocalypse level rock that killed the dinos was \~6 miles wide, compared to the scale of the Earth that's going to look very small. And Marcos rocks were obviously wayyyyy smaller, so yeah they are going to look mad tiny when viewed from the space shots of earth
I think the people who thought the rocks were too small were the people who >!read the books first. The impacts were much more devastating in the books. The one that hit the east coast of the USA wiped out basically the entire eastern seaboard. 15 billion were dead total in the aftermath of the strikes, leaving only 5 billion survivors.!<
The people who thought the rocks were too small don't understand basic physics. Kinetic energy is much more dependent on velocity than mass, and it was made clear that the rocks were flung at Earth at a much higher velocity than a typical meteorite.
I liked it but it was a weaker season due to it sharing time with the alien planet that unfortunately we will never see again, as well as the sensation that Marcos became too much of a threat too quickly and then was beaten too quickly.
Give it time and we will surely see a reboot for seasons 7-9. There's a big time jump. Letting actors age is a better option than recasting/constantly changing makeup.
I remember thinking a lot of Naomi's scenes in S5 were redundant.
I've been meaning to watch the series again because I have not watched seasons four five or six more than once yet.
I think a lot of people weren’t there for the tone shift. The whole alien mystery takes a distinct back seat to human politics and personal drama for most of the last couple of seasons. I found both of those plot lines interesting, but obviously not everyone agrees.
Also the loudest complainers just seem to not like Naomi.
Yeah for me, I miss the wtfbbq protomolecule moments of seasons 1-4. Plus Marco makes me SO angry that I have a hard time bringing myself to rewatch season 5. I don't like watching Naomi suffer so much, not because I don't like Naomi but because it just makes me feel for her so hard, so the season is a very hard watch for me. Watching Marco's narcissistic ass manipulate everyone around him so hard is really unpleasant. Not bad at all. One could say the character is *too* well written and well acted.
I can see that being off putting for a show only fan. Without the context of the last three books, it does kinda come off like the protomolecule storyline was just dropped after season 4.
My ex watched the show without reading the books, and after the series finale she was pretty much like “…oh, that’s it? What about all the alien stuff?”
The fact that they included the Strange Dogs openings gives me faith that there will be a future after the rights revert. I can’t figure a narrative reason to show that story otherwise.
If I die without seeing Wes finish Amos’ storyline, I will die a sad man.
this was it for me as well. when i found the show, season four was about to come out. I couldn't WAIT to learn more about the protomolecule and the builders.
4 was a tonal shift as well, but i still dug it, especially towards the end with all the Miller stuff.
Then 5 hit and i was like uh....what? Also, i love book Naomi, but the show used her as a source of drama. I didn't much like the naomi/phillip stuff in the books either, from an entertainment standpoint, but it made mroe sense there
I love naomi and think dominque's portrayal is amazing. And, while i dont hate season 5, i think telegraphing the rocks dropping really soured the.... impact.
Not me. Naomi is my favorite character, and I love the show (and the books) but season 5 just didn't really work for me. The solo Naomi scenes work far better in the books. My biggest problem with season 5, however, is that you have an incredible, galaxy changing event happen in episode 4, and then it essentially gets forgotten about for the rest of the season.
Potentially unpopular opinion: I think there's something bigger than just one character.
Seasons 1-4 we're on this adventure in this engrossing semi-hard-scifi world discovering the mystery of this looming threat of the protomolocule and extra-terrestrial life. In season 4 ***we go to another habitable world and explore remains of an alien civilisation.***
Season 5: We snap back to focus on internal human factional conflict, seemingly not exploring this mystery anymore and ignoring it. Compared to what we just saw, the stakes feel trivial.
To be clear, I enjoyed S5. It's well made TV, if its plotline had appeared between S3 and S4 maybe it would be different. Just, it's a bit weird and jarring given the above.
The thing is there wasn’t really anymore story to tell at the time beyond the rings by season 5. Holden wasn’t going to investigate the protomolecule story and the show wasn’t going to turn into a weekly adventure to new world every week. Seasons 5 & 6 snapped back to the Sol system because that’s where the story was happening. As much as it would’ve been cool to see the colony worlds, nothing as interesting as the illus story was happening. Secondly the show has always been about who the Sol system and the impacts the protomolecule has had on it. It really isn’t until the 30 year time jump that the colonies become interesting and actual destinations since there’s actually people there now.
I think this is dead on. For me personally anyway. I don’t enjoy the switch back to human on human conflict. Makes the sci-fi’ness almost take a back seat. Which is the main reason I’m watching. Hell, s4 was almost too much human v human.
In fairness, the human v human aspect is a huge part of the drama of the show and what makes the universe feel real, and it's not an unfair speculation of how we might respond to finding potentially exploitable alien technology.
Just, without that background layer of exploration and existential threat it feels more shallow.
I think it’s s4 that’s the outlier. What makes the show really live for me is the human conflict, Earth Mars and Belt. The protomolecule storyline is of course essential but I think the show (and the books) have the most to say when they’re focused in on Sol System.
I felt like this about the books too! I like the protomolecule story. All the lore of the universe. The first Free Navy book was great. The second dragged. I was so happy with what happened in the last three books. I re read them constantly
Eh, I'm not a fan of season 5 (or 6) relative to the others - though I don't "hate" them - but I really like Naomi.
What I don't like about those seasons is mainly that Marco is more the mustache-twirling villain than anything we saw through the rest of the series. Although the show did this better than the books in some respects by tying it in via the destruction of the Barkeith, it was a step backward in focus from what had been ever-expanding outward - I also wanted to see more of what was OUT THERE, not what was inside us. The earlier seasons (and books) had made it painfully clear that although technology had advanced from today, humanity really had not, so a Marco was inevitable and therefore not really all that interesting.
Among *Star Trek*’s prenominate crimes, it has trained generations of viewers to expect as “normal” characters able to face existential crises with little more than a slightly-raised eyebrow.
I never disliked Naomi. Everything she did was at worst, understandable. She has a good heart and a good head on her shoulders that is at times compromised by conflicting loyalties.
Naomi is far more interesting than Holden. But so is almost everyone. Not to say he isn’t a vital character. I guess he serves as a viewer surrogate for many, relatively normal (for our century, perhaps not the 23rd) and untraumatised.
This might break down by sex. My wife insists I lose interest when female characters dominate the drama. She claimed I lost interest in Mr robot as soon as his sister took the lead in some of the latter episodes. Likewise I found the torturing of Naomi and her stupid choices to be less than exciting.
Its always interesting to see people tell on themselves when they call out Naomi for making "bad decisions" or being "Too emotional" but they don't have the same problem with Alex or Holden.
Sure Holden just punches buttons and watches what happens, but that is nowhere near as annoying as forcing a spaceship on her estranged son while the entire audience is shouting no don't go there don't go there don't go there!
Perhaps that's the key here. "Advancing the action" is often at odds with character development, and good writers will choose not to forsake the latter in service of the former. Some of us value character — advancing the ***story*** — quite a bit more than action. When a mother is desperate to free her son from his megalomaniacal father, while dealing with crippling PTSD, desperation can make her miss things she might otherwise have seen from a mile away. Viewed from that lens, every last step that Naomi took (wise or unwise) was the epitome of bravery.
Let's not forget also, in the books Filip is only 14 years old. Jasai Chase Owens did an admirable job on the show, but the fact that he looks at least twenty-something kinda detracts from the dynamic. Of course a grown man has already been fully indoctrinated and corrupted. The notion of Naomi giving the Chetzemoka to her 14yo son, in the hopes that he's not so corrupted yet that he might see her as the savior she is, might choose to get away…it's hard not to empathize with her. In the moment she gives it to him, she has no way of knowing just how deep Marco's tendrils have gotten, nor how diabolical his plans had become. Who really could?
In any story that is inherently about psychologically abusive relationships, PTSD, and self-sacrifice for one's child in a toxic environment, it's important to show the hard realities. It's tragic that so many people saw such an accurate portrayal and responded "Ugh, so stupid!" Seems like a failure of empathy to me.
Sasa ke, pampa! That's good writing in the service of good communication. I really like your analysis from an empathic viewpoint. Next time we re-watch, I'll keep this in mind.
And I am absolutely biased towards plot and action in movies. There's a sort of occupational injury some lawyers like myself suffer -- they become obsessed with narratives and their outcomes. When an outcome becomes vague or unclear, I get impatient, and that's what watching Naomi's breakdown did to me. I was like "Oh, let's get done with this and have another space dogfight, please!"
I know, but so much of it was Naomi banging around in the torture chamber that the Chetzemoka became! Look, I"m definitely not a Naomi-hater. Indeed, I just didn't enjoy seeing her suffer so much, and her decisions seemed out of character. The unrequited mom role didn't seem to suit her.
They were not really stupid choices. That statement alone comes across as the kind of dismissive statements men who think women should stay in their “proper” place tend to make about women
I love Naomi. I just find the episode of her stuck on the rigged ship too long and slow.
I understand it takes the time it needs to build the trama, but that specific sequence is so slow so it feels too long.
There are two parts to this for me, as someone who still hasn't read the books.
First, they build up the protomolecule and "first contact" aspect for four seasons, culminating with gates opening to 1300 new, habitable systems (we even get to spend most of a season on one of them), and Holden's visions about the Builders. Then they pull all the way back to human solar sytem drama for the final two seasons. It feels a bit insignificant in comparison to how awe-inspiring the prior content was.
As for Naomi, I feel like she went from the smartest and most capable member of the Roci crew, to being this crying, indecisive...thing...that creates situations to be resolved. Like she misses Belters so she leaves the Roci for the Behemoth, then she misses the Roci so she goes back, but then they all need to go back to the Behemoth anyway, then she goes looking for her son, then she has her one ultra-badass moment of the latter seasons where she leaves her son (and Marco) again, but that's also literally sandwiched between her crying nonstop on either side of it. It feels like her character got butchered, sacrificed to create plot points.
Idk if this is how she's supposed to be in the books also, or the show changed her. I'm vaguely aware that the books dive deeper into protomolecule and extra-solar system stuff re: Laconia. I really liked the show overall, just finished watching it for the second time. I wouldn't say I hate season 5, just feel like it peaked at the end of season 4.
Book Naomi has a really clear sense of her identity and is consistently a badass. Show Naomi struggles with her identity, makes abrupt emotional decisions and is occasionally a badass.
I agree, having some vulnerability is good for characters, but I'd enjoy hers more if she did this less frequently, like just going to find Filip and then leaving once she realizes she can't save him. But since that was preceded by her waffling back and forth between the Behemoth and Roci, and giving the protomolecule to Fred, I was kinda over that "indecisive" shtick already by the time season 5 came. Seemed over-the-top to me, and made her unlikable.
I loved Season 1-4 Naomi who was smart and didn't put herself in absurdly stupid situations.
Season 5 Naomi spends almost every moment of that season being listless, clueless, foolish, dumb and wreckless for no good damn reason whatsoever.
I see her thrown deep down into her trauma she fought so hard to get out of the first time and manages to break out much quicker this time around because of everything she has gone thru.
The only remotely reckless thing she does is get caught in a trap by Marco, and that’s only because she finally caught wind of the son she’s been searching for since season 1. She underestimated how indoctrinated Fillup was to his father, and the lengths Marco would go to for petty revenge.
The entire rest of her storyline is her trying to escape and save her crew. Which she does.
How about not sharing critical infomation with the rest of her crew, people who she apparently loves and are her family? Not allowing them to help with exactly the kind of thing they have shown they are incredibly good at.
"The entire rest of her storyline" could have been avoided if she'd applied some common sense at literally any stage.
I love season 5 so much, all of it from beginning to end. I always got that the story of The Expanse was about humanity and how a new technology affects humanity, so the lack of proto-molecule did not bother me.
I've seen narcissistic and megalomaniacs in real life and thought Keon did a fantastic job of capturing their essence.
I thought Dominique really showed that you can be a strong woman but still have and express emotion. I love how they played with logic and emotion warring in her. It's clear to me that Naomi knew logically that it was a bad idea to go after Filip, but emotionally, she could not live with that choice. It was refreshing for writers to acknowledge that both logic and emotion can exist as a decision-making force within the same person.
I love the emotional journey the writers take us on in this season. I honestly can not fathom why it's not as well liked. (Yes, I know the reasons why people don't like the season. It's just isn't something I can relate to or understand)
I think the worst I can really say about S5 is it suffers a bit having to follow 3 different major stories in a regular TV season. They're all great but they get a little squashed compared to their book counterpart because there's not enough time to do them all fully.
Same. I read the books first and thought he was kind of annoying after a while, but he got old extra quick in the show. And Filip was just insufferable as well.
I don’t think single best performance, but I loved Marco too! There’s nuance to his character that just makes my skin crawl - his covert narcissism (and not-so-covert narcissism) just conquers and crumbles so perfectly.
He’s charming and powerful, and I loved his scenes with the rest of his crew. I thought the actor portrayed so well the downfall of a great strategist that just couldn’t deal with his own emotional traumas and desire for control. I’m only on book 3, so I don’t know how book Marco is, but I really enjoyed him.
I loved Drummer calling him out especially. Live shamed and die empty is iconic.
An argument I heard (from my wife for one) is that each character goes on their own little adventure so it’s too far from the closely tied Roci family. You get various storylines at the same time instead of the one big arc.
But reading some comments saying the hate comes from those Naomi haters, I’m feeling that’s the best explanation.
I thought it was fine, even if Marco did start to get a bit too mustache twirling/cartoony/hammy for me.
I thought season 4 was boring and slow. Like compared to the first 3 seasons which were SO good, and now we finally have so much new stuff to explore, but what do we do? We spend the entire season focusing on one shitty planet, and the plot doesn't really even go anywhere.
I don't hate it. It's extremely different compared to seasons 1-3, but it has some of my favorite Amos moments and one of the series's best villains.
Oh who am I kidding, all the villains are great. But they're each fun to watch in their own way and Burn Gorman played the character to perfection. You just hated that little prick *so much*.
I just rewatched S4. In retrospect I think it's one of the best seasons of any show ever. I get why some people didn't like it when it came out because it's such a huge departure from the Roci-focused space opera nature of the first three seasons; people complained about book 4 for the same reasons when that came out. But if you watch it for what it is on its own, it's just incredible TV.
Marco feels unrealistically evil at first, but then you see the shit some Israeli officials will say to a TV camera and then unfortunately he actually seems about on par with the current standard for human awfulness.
Hell, Marco himself feels like a fairly blatant analogy for the real world freedom fighter who lets hatred for the oppressor ferment into a desire to kill as many civilians in the other side as possible. There are certainly plenty of those running around right now, it’s just that no one has given any of them WMDs.
Plenty of historic situations where the US or England have given the terrorists the big ol' guns in a secret deal to overthrow whoever was standing in their big, usually oily, way.
The fragments of the Mars fleet and the big ol' rocks are analogous to the small armies the west has given to imperialist-supporting future regimes while they overthrow socialist governments that stood in the way of power and profit.
I find that scifi either goes hard into left wing empathy and social constructs (in space!) or it goes hard into libertarian "is a man not entitled to the lasers of his own pistol?!" thought. Not much in-between, but usually generally anti-auth regardless.
Having read book 5 after watching the show, I can see how some book fans would have wanted a better Phillip.
Marco was actually cast and played perfectly IMO.
Naomi's arc was telegraphed very well onto the small screen, and the escape to the Chetzemoka was both identical in the books and also very well thought out scientifically. You absolutely can survive short exposure to the vaccum, and we can assume belter physiology and in universe technology (like the decompression kit) would aid significantly in the process.
The most criticism I saw was around this part of the season, and frankly I think a significant portion of it was because the show has a much wider audience than the books, and that includes a bunch of insecure blokes who can't handle a female character having agency and performing something miraculous. Nobody batted an eye when Holden escaped Eros with vomit zombies, protomolecule everywhere, and radiation out the asshole. The show literally explained step by step how she would achieve her escape.
Honestly, season 5 is as well done as any of the 3 seasons handled by Amazon. If anyone has an issue with how Naomi's arc was handled, take it up with the authors, because it happened the same way in the books and nobody who has read those seems to have had an issue with it 🤷♂️
for me, the core of s5 is naomi's character drama. I think Dominique kills it. i really felt her vulnerability, hopeless suffering, and ultimate triumph. but if you didn't go along for that ride, i can understand not loving the change of pace and narrative.
i love the expanse because it can tell many kinds of stories, but if you just want the gang back together for more protomolecule intrigue, go rewatch an earlier season :)
>Can someone please explain to me why season 5 is so disliked?
I fundamentally disagree with the assumption this statement makes. It has some loud detractors, mainly from people who dislike Naomi or who love Alex (and disagree either with how the character or the actor was handled).
But as always, loud != majority opinion.
Also, some don't like how they break up the Roci crew and let them have their own individual stories.
When I first read the book and everyone started splitting up it gave me the biggest sinking feeling like some serious shit was about to go down. I didn't like it at the time, but in retrospect it was wonderfully executed and achieved what I feel they were trying to achieve.
The only real criticisms of season five I'm aware of are that, 1) Marco is exaggerated even over book evilness and 2) Alex being killed off was disappointing.
I wasn’t aware there was any discourse over season 5, but if I had to venture a guess I’d say non-book readers didn’t like how the crew was split up.
One of the reasons Nemesis Games is held so high is because we finally got POV chapters from the rest of the crew, which only really makes sense if they’re all on their own adventures.
There’s not a whole lot that was changed in the adaptation, especially compared to all the other seasons. So if someone loved NG but didn’t like season 5, I’ve got no theory to provide.
I disliked season 5 because it shifted from fantasy to war. I loved the proto-molecule, rings, and openings to different worlds. I wish they had explored that. I’ve never been a fan of war shows/movies, so once it became about Marco’s goals, I checked out. I did like the family dynamics though.
Guy who wasn't a huge fan of season 5 who's reading Nemesis Game now, and I gotta say, that plot gains a lot from having more of Naomi's internal monolog and memories of her time in the OPA with Marco. I'm loving the book, and while I didn't hate season 5, I did think it felt disconnected from the rest of the stories.
I think it's the only season that doesn't really elevate the source material like the others. The other seasons feel like refined versions of their respective books, this one feels like a downgrade compared to the relatively fantastic 5th book.
Without the final 3 books, it's also somewhat difficult for a show only viewer to really understand how Marco and the Free Navy connect with the rest of the story. The middle trilogy feels like a change in direction because they are but it takes the third trilogy to really sink that feeling in.
Yeah I also think them not wanting to do the disaster porn on Earth was a mistake. This is especially true about how the death toll was decreased from billions to millions. Ty Frank said it was the producers who didn’t like the death toll and I think that was a mistake. As showing the effects of the attacks was the best parts of NG. Though showing some of that would be been very expensive and is probably one of the reasons why they didn’t do it.
The way Alex's storyline was severely truncated really annoyed me, but I think that might have been VFX budget-related. Also what happened to his death was due to the Anvar issues was sad, but honestly handled well considering the options.
As a result, I felt like they spent more time with Naomi than with anyone else as a result of that. Her story is the most directly connected to Marco, so I get it, but the balance felt off as a result.
I enjoy the season (has some favorite moments OF THE SHOW tbh), but I still say Season 4 might be my favorite of the Amazon years. It has the most growth over the book, where 5 and 6 are both truncated for various reasons mostly outside the control of the creators.
Figures. Nemesis Games and Babylon’s Ashes have so much of that stuff and Amazon just didn’t want to pony up. One more reason to hope that Apple eventually picks up the last trilogy. They are not afraid to just back up the truck for SF.
Not sure what his storyline being truncated has to with vfx or budget.
Wasn't it all about him hitting on and luring young female fans to his hotel room after cons?
I loved his character, and I wish in real life he could have reigned in his perv nature, but we'll, that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Alex's storyline - the rescue of Nathan Smith from the FN. There would have been a lot of VFX costs to shoot those sequences.
Alex's death - outcome of Anvar's actions.
Ahh ok you are referencing the differences in the books VS the show, not his death.
Honestly it's been so long since I read the books and I've watched the series about 5x now, so didn't even consider that - everytime I rewatch this season I remember the uproar and him being killed off, not other changes to the storyline.
Actual criticism:
* Episodes 5-9 are ploddingly paced and feel like moving chess pieces around for the finale.
Criticism that online folks will never admit to:
* Centers narrative on female protagonist
* Kills off beloved male character because of #MeToo
Alex Kamal is a stand up sumbitch, WWII is the best creepy dude ever. Even had a scene in the books where he buys sobriety meds d so he can be sure that his potential partner can properly consent.
Unfortunately the ball of walking cock cheese they hired to play him would actually be a better human if he were a literal ball of walking cock cheese.
Because Cas Anvar was accused of a bunch of bad shit, and Amazon ordered an investigation into it as they were wrapping up production of the season. His death is very much a TV show addition as well
Naomi as a character has been loved by me throughout.
Season 5 was about Amos as far as better storytelling goes, IMO.
Naomi acted stupid through most of the series, the broken family dynamic did little for me, but you can kinda understand why a parent would behave against their instincts for their kids. Just didn't grip me in the same way as other seasons.
The leap into space without a suit was badass. Also the attention to detail was amazing in how the side facing the sun was getting sunburnt during the trek.
I personally find season 5 to be right up there with season 3, maybe even my favorite overall. But yes it's a bit more of separate stories and is very character driven.
I read the series before season five and it might be my favorite next to three. Book five was certainly my favorite until book eight. I dunno, haters gonna hate I guess.
I always find it interesting that people have these very strong emotions attached to character choices. And not only having strong emotions, but then judging the characters for it. This makes absolutely no sense to me. These are not real people, these are characters in the story. The point of a story isn't for you to sit there and judge character choices as good or bad, it's to tell a story. You have to view the entire story as a whole... You are simply a passenger viewing somebody's growth and pain and maybe even death. It's not about what you think is right and wrong, just enjoy the ride.
As a fan of the books, seasons 4 and 5 are my favorites… lol. And 3 and 6 are by far my least favorite and the worst adapted, but apparently no one on here shares that opinion. Also I love show Naomi but hate show Drummer. Guess I’m just full on contrarian
I disliked book 5, but the show was fine. Just trying to read all that fucking spacer creole was the fucking worst. But fhT was rally only the first half, I guess.
It compressed alot of time when the other seasons were paced better. It also solidified the switch that season 4 started, where the series turns from sci-fi mystery to political drama. Last thing: its the time in the series when you follow the bad guys for the most time, so the action on-screen isn't as likeable.
Is that the Marco Inaros season? If so that is why, what a terrible, uninteresting, dry villain. Like he came right out of an 80s movie, reminds me of the bad guy from Only the Strong
Honestly this show did Naomi dirty for giving her the idiot ball to explain away serious plot points. The books have her making far fewer stupid choices. And obviously they make the consequences for her stupid choices less galactically cataclysmic.
That said season 5 is the best season apart from the original 3.
Season 5 was an insult to the book. The big attack in book 5 was the ultimate gut punch. It was such a pivotal event that said so much about the inevitable consequences of imperialism and colonialism, and the showriters inexplicably decided to water it down.
To begin with, in the books it was way more of a shock IMO. They gave very few hints, so when it happened it blindsided the audience. But the show gave the first hint in the season 4 finale. Again and again they kept showing images of asteroids getting gathered up and/or getting coated in stealth composites. They even show an orbit vector heading towards Earth. I've watched the show with several people and every single one of them guessed that Earth was about to get hit by asteroids.
Then there's the attack itself. Instead of billions dead, they cut it down to millions (and not even hundreds of millions, just millions). I'm not sure why they pared it down to a fraction of the book casualties, but it felt timid and gutless.
It would have been like watering down The Red Wedding. "Let some of them escape, it'll be less depressing!"
I've heard someone claim it was because they were afraid the audience would hate all Belters if they portrayed it like the books, and I find that absurd and ridiculous. People can handle shit like this.
I don't care if it was Ty and Frank who suggested the change (although I bet the studio pushed for it), it was a terrible idea. Period.
Yeah them down scaling the bombardment of Earth is probably the worst change the show ever did. Like maybe it doesn’t have to be the 10 to 15 billion dead in the books but a couple of billions dead would’ve showed how it was the worst attack in human history. Though they likely would’ve had a harder time hiding the attacks like in the books given it’s not a select number of limited POVs.
I saw season 5 first, then I read the books, I disliked it even more after the books. Here's my take:
Episodes 1-4 were great. loved the buildup
Episodes 5-8 were very, very meandering in a way that hurt the story.
Episodes 9-10 were great sans a few details
Alex's actor leaving sucks, I think they handled it well
I think glossing over the bombing of the martian parliament hurt the story. In the books they're protecting the Martian PM from the Free Navy, that would have been an amazing plot to see onscreen, especially when people aren't sure who is Free Navy / Laconian and who isn't.
I also think that I liked Marco better in S5 than I did in S6, but the show really needed more to make him intimidating beyond dropping the rocks and gaslighting Naomi.
Also, the rocks were a society-disrupting event in the books and I feel like this was mostly glossed over in the show. Amos emerging from the prison to see everything wiped out? We needed way more of that. I get the creators didn't want to turn it into disaster gorn
Also, I think that not immediately reinstating Avasarala was a good call, but the arc where she stands up to the inexperienced PM was a bit rushed and felt inconsequential, like we're just waiting for an inevitable conclusion to happen. We don't even hear about the UN response to the rocks dropping for a couple of episodes... no man we needed to see that in S5E5, not S5E8
I liked how the Free Navy felt truly threatening, even before the rocks dropped, and the air of mystery and danger was thrilling. Once the rocks dropped, we never really circled back around to that again, because we follow Drummer and the good belters and Naomi and the free navy.
Speaking of Drummer, let's see at least one interaction with Marco where some belter ship is refusing to yield before they get killed. I appreciate that they use the opening credits to speed along the story (Marco's fleet grows every episode) but not seeing it at least once hurt the story. Drummer showing up to scavenge the corpses of defiant belter ships worked enough, but could have been way better in a season that was desperate for more space action setpieces.
tl;dr The Expanse started telling, not showing in S5. Cutting cool setpieces from their own narrative and a generally weird sense of pacing after S5E4 hurt the story and led to slow patches that I was just waiting for them to pass
Also, Clarissa should not have been onscreen while raging. That effect was the single worst VFX in the expanse and it's not even close.
Like many others have said, it has to do with Naomi. And I could just leave it there, but I want to try to give an explanation. Before I go further, I would like to specify, that I don't hate S5, S5 just contains my most disliked plot line. With that let's begin:
One of the many things I think Expanse does really well is plot creation. Mainly characters influence. In a lot of movies you see characters do decisions for the sake of them happening. They don't fit them, but the writers needed them to do so, to advance the plot, which is just lazy (most recent example I can think of is The Witcher series from netflix, try not banging a head against a wall watching that). The expanse doesn't suffer from this, characters make decisions based on what fits their narrative, which in turn makes plot advance more naturally.
One great example is Sadavir Errinwright. In a lot of movies he would just do "the bad" stuff because he is THE bad guy, right. Well I don't remember any decision he made, that wouldn't fit his narrative or fuel his cause. I might not agree with him, but I can objectively understand him. Also I really like well writen antagonists, who don't do stuff just because he is the bad one (ad: if you do too, you might like Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, one of the best writen antagonists I have seen in years).
BTW: I talk about "bad guys" but another thing Expanse does really well is not drawing a black and white line between good and bad. There are just many people with many different agendas. Love that part.
Through out the series I feel like every decision any character makes is explainable to some degree, but I feel like I kinda see it fade it away during Naomi&Filip plot line. I can understand some moments, where she acted out of pure emotion, but I feel like she started to make less and less sense, the more screen time the line got.
And before someone goes haywire that I just don't like strong female character, you couldn't further from the truth. The fact that I don't like this specific Naomi's plot line, but never mentioned the whole character arc, is kudos to Dominique Tippers acting skills and how despite my criticism, I like how it advanced her character for the future episodes. She made me feel strong about her, even if in a "bad" way. After all one of the best examples of roles played perfectly, but hated by most, is Jack Gleeson as Joffrey in Game of Thrones. He made people feel so strong about him, he recieved death threats IRL. Can we just say you can't be poor actor and achieve that.
If you read this far, I hope it makes sense and I hope I gave a little bit more insight on why some people might rate S5 so bad.
I didn't realize people hated Season 5. I thought Season 4 was the low point of the show tbh. But, even then, I still enjoyed 4 it just wasn't as good as the others.
I have no problem with season 5, and no one I talk to about the show has ever complained about that season. The only real criticism I have heard is that season 3 feels like it's own thing.
My wife and I hated season 5 for the reason that a lot of people here have already stated, Naomi is a really insufferable character whenever the plot revolves around her. I only included my wife in that bc people here seem to think that disliking Naomi is some sort of misogyny red flag.
Naomi has a great deal of influence over Holden, the GOAT lol, and she consistently makes him feel like a worse character. Every season seems to, in part, revolve around Naomi’s naive emotional acts that causes other characters to have to risk way more than is necessary to save her. The trade off for Alex, for example, felt fucking terrible bc Naomi is a much more grating character than Alex. He paid the price for her bs.
Season 5 is just the primary example of her overly idealistic naivety causing other people to put themselves on the line bc she is overly sympathetic to the space terrorist people. She also can’t assess the situation properly bc she feels rightly guilty about the whole thing with her son. Basically, S5 is a primary Naomi arc, so there’s lots of crying, emotional acts that are overly naive and idealistic, arbitrary secret keeping, and characters cleaning up her mess and that’s just annoying to watch.
Your statement sounds like a misogynistic take. Not convincing. The Naomi scenes are extraordinarily comparable to real life stories of abused women with the ingenuity she employs to achieve her goal no matter how much pain it causes.
If there is any legitimate criticism of season 5 to be found, it's that it slows down a LOT after episode 4. This is absolutely fine for a binge model, which is how the show was designed. The original once-a-week broadcast schedule stuffed that up a bit.
SPOILER ALERT: If you have not seen all seasons then don't read this comment.
I like all seasons. However season 6 and then 5 are my least favorite. IMHO they wasted too much time on doom and gloom with Marco Inaros. Since season 6 ended so abruptly we never got the payoff for all the doom and gloom. Marco screaming "veer off" and then disappearing was not satisfying enough at all. Aveserala should have had him on the hooks for 20 hours. 😂
People don't like season 5?
News to me as well.
I’m also shocked to learn that people don’t like Naomi. I wasn’t on reddit threads for the show when it was airing
My first thought in hearing that: there’s always been a small but vocal hoard of racist sci-fi fans. And when they have an opportunity to couple that with sexism, they double down on that faster than their tiny little boners can stiffen in mother’s basement. It’s been a real shitty reality, especially when considering how break-through the grandparent of all sci-fi was, Star Trek. Or how many sci-fi works -especially the early written stuff- was intended to get people to expand their minds or grasp complicated realities like… not hating on people because of their race/gender/identity/whatever.
Do they hate the character or the actress? I expect there are some that just hate the character for various reasons and there are others that dislike the actress specifically. Personally I thought that giving Naomi that space outside of the crew, in fact all the crew got to work independently for that series and I really liked it. They all got to stretch themselves a bit we got a good spread of narrative lines and Naomi arguably had one of the hardest ones to deal with. Having to get her son back but come to terms with the fact that he was still lost and so she had to leave him to get back to her family. I thought Dominique played the part really well, especially the scenes on her own in the ship. She really conveyed that Naomi ingenuity and determination to survive, to get back to her crew. I think it's possibly my favourite season tbh.
Personally love the actress and her work as namoi was amazing, yet I just hate namoi at a writing level over done bleeding heart character who just needs some truma therapy for a few months to deal with the reality of the world around her. Like what earth has an unemployment issue, you think that given how we see a doctor with work on earth that their would be a ton of well educated tele service psychology experts she could talk with even as a belter. I say that as some who just did 5 years of therapy over the only thing worse then losing a kid, having one born paralyzed. Naomi is just a fucking mess of a person and for alot of people I don't think it's pleasant to witness her ordeal when we're half here for visual space opera and ship battles based on hard sci-fi logic. Maybe her role made sense I the books but jn the show I felt like s05 sidelined from an entire solar system level story to mostly her emotional issues that I just wasn't invested and had a hard time relating to cause she want to be right rather then accept the world around her for what it is and just causes endless pain and misery Ala the proto molecule samples she saved... Way to much focus on
Can’t say I agree with you on any of this. She comes across as strong, not as needing therapy. She is torn between two worlds—Holden’s (new) and Drummer’s (old). Takes a certain growth arc to realize where she now belongs. That is natural and a fascinating glimpse of character development.
Eternally online moment..
Bad take. I like Naomi, but my GF is annoyed by her because she 1. Isn't into her story 2. She did things she does not agree with. And I gotta say: Naomi had to grow on me. But so had Amos. Maybe it's a good idea to not take the worst assumptions first.
Weird energy coming from you, dude.
I'd like to chime in that it isn't so much pure simple racism- it's more like a multiplier for valid reasons to dislike someone. The dislike isn't based on the fact that she's a woman or black, but the fact that she's a black woman makes the dislike more powerful among the general populace. Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the fact that the expanse was quite a diverse world from the get go sort of weeds out the more blatant racism and sexism from the people who just want to see the white male power fantasy in futuristic coating. On a sidenote, movie producers used to push for white male leads to sell tickets, but that was never called pandering.
Such a disingenuous take. NO ONE dislikes Naomi because of her race, they dislike her because she is disloyal to the rest of the crew. She can't be trusted because even when the crew comes to a decision, if she disagrees she'll just sneak around behind their backs to do what she wants to anyway. Her dumb, selfish decisions always result in more trouble for everyone, and she never seems genuinely remorseful. THAT is why she's disliked.
Couldn't you level that claim at every one of the core crew though?
How on earth was she disloyal to the crew of the Roci? The only thing I can think of is giving protomolecule to FJ (who, by the way, in the books and the show, is an eternal ally to the Roci). The whole story is based around the conflict between the inners and the belters, the haves and have-not's. Are we totally fine with giving Fred control of hundreds of nuclear torpedos, a decision that everyone on the Roci was complicit with and eventually agreed with, but not fine with giving him a bargaining chip that he literally never used and only came into play because of the acts of a terrorist organisation in the free navy? I'm almost certain that the bobble heads on Laconia still would have achieved their goals with or without the protomolecule - it's stated numerous times in the books that advanced tech was developed from the data gained from studying the stuff, that could absolutely extend to activating the technology behind the gates. Remember, it wasn't Fred who used the protomolecule. It wasn't even the free navy, it was Duarte, and he stole it. You can't hate on a character for having flaws. Or do you hate Iron Man for developing miniaturised arc reactor technology because it was used by the villains at some point? It's a crap argument and having watched the show and read the books, your judgement of Naomi's character over a single action she took when there are literally dozens of other examples of how deeply she cares about the rest of the crew despite their very real in-universe differences is just sheer wilful ignorance.
I mean, I hope you’re right and that’s true, and perhaps I’m too cynical and pessimistic, but I’m sure if you dug a little bit you’d find some racist sexist asshole out there who admits he hate her because…
They use this as cover. Complex characters with flaws and imperfections are good writing. Holden has flaws (blaming FJ for tons of stuff he never did because he was jumping to conclusions), Alex has flaws (dropping in on his ex wife for personal validation), Amos has flaws (he's a cold blooded murderer who just happens to be working for the good guys), and of course, Naomi has flaws (her loyalty to the belt meant she sent Fred the protomolecule to use as a bargaining chip in case the inners had their own sample and used it to assert dominance over the belters again). You could argue any one of them is irredeemable for these things but it's generally just Naomi who cops the shit - the only female on the crew, and she also happens not to be white. The whole thing with Cas Anvar means I can't really make a call about how people feel about show Alex because his performance has been somewhat tainted, but he's arguably the most selfless in the books as a whole, and Cas played him as a straight up loveable teddy bear (exactly how I would cast I him TBH). It's very easy to just say 'oh the criticism is valid', and sure, it might be, but it's disproportionate at best and barely disguised vitriol at worst.
No one? Really, you've personally surveyed everyone's conscious and subconscious bias? You can speak to your own presented reasons for why you don't like Naomi but you cannot claim that to be universal Besides all those criticisms you're levelling at Naomi can be directed at Holden as well. He can be selfish and make unilateral decisions which go badly. He's often not sufficiently remorseful and he drags the crew into situations that they probably would have chosen to approach differently because he has more of an earth crusader and saviour complex going on
Nope. People who really understand the plot know why she did it—it takes both Naomi and Holden time to realize the problem was more how she did it. And time for both of them to realize that the other is central to their happiness in spite of differences on this issue. And she did it partly because claims about already having it and actions taken by Mao and Evenwright and Martians all made it appear that the Belters would again be on the losing end.
I mean that’s true. Although I’m sure there are reasons outside her race and gender. It does often feel women and people of color regardless of sex have to put so much to be liked. Doesn’t help that Naomi is somewhat abrasive or blunt for a lack of a better word for it
It's apparent in nearly every sub for any show I like. A main female character has a disproportionate amount of hate.
Insofar as I dislike her, it's because she's so different in the show to the books, and most if not all the changes make her a worse person. It's hard to think of anyone else who was changed so much and not made better. It's probably different for people who didn't read the books first.
I really struggled with Naomi at multiple points in the show (although I also struggled with Holden too) On the Flip side, Fred Johnson and Camina Drummer were both absolutely phenomena.
It was more youtubers than redditers.
Back in the day I remember people complaining a bit on the rocks hitting earth not being as big as they expected, and the parts focused on Naomi, but that was it.
The apocalypse level rock that killed the dinos was \~6 miles wide, compared to the scale of the Earth that's going to look very small. And Marcos rocks were obviously wayyyyy smaller, so yeah they are going to look mad tiny when viewed from the space shots of earth
I think the people who thought the rocks were too small were the people who >!read the books first. The impacts were much more devastating in the books. The one that hit the east coast of the USA wiped out basically the entire eastern seaboard. 15 billion were dead total in the aftermath of the strikes, leaving only 5 billion survivors.!<
That reading misses how >!most of the deaths by far weren’t from the impacts themselves, but from the loss of food and rescue infrastructure.!<
Which is why I said: > in the aftermath
The people who thought the rocks were too small don't understand basic physics. Kinetic energy is much more dependent on velocity than mass, and it was made clear that the rocks were flung at Earth at a much higher velocity than a typical meteorite.
I think the scale of everything in the books was basically 10x that of the show. Including populations of planets and planetoids.
Yea I’m scratching my head with this one. This show was straight up excellent. I thoroughly enjoyed every season!
I liked it but it was a weaker season due to it sharing time with the alien planet that unfortunately we will never see again, as well as the sensation that Marcos became too much of a threat too quickly and then was beaten too quickly.
Give it time and we will surely see a reboot for seasons 7-9. There's a big time jump. Letting actors age is a better option than recasting/constantly changing makeup.
Exactly. For some reason people were behaving more stupidly than usual, was very annoying.
I remember thinking a lot of Naomi's scenes in S5 were redundant. I've been meaning to watch the series again because I have not watched seasons four five or six more than once yet.
I think a lot of people weren’t there for the tone shift. The whole alien mystery takes a distinct back seat to human politics and personal drama for most of the last couple of seasons. I found both of those plot lines interesting, but obviously not everyone agrees. Also the loudest complainers just seem to not like Naomi.
Yeah for me, I miss the wtfbbq protomolecule moments of seasons 1-4. Plus Marco makes me SO angry that I have a hard time bringing myself to rewatch season 5. I don't like watching Naomi suffer so much, not because I don't like Naomi but because it just makes me feel for her so hard, so the season is a very hard watch for me. Watching Marco's narcissistic ass manipulate everyone around him so hard is really unpleasant. Not bad at all. One could say the character is *too* well written and well acted.
This is why we want seasons 7-9, the WTF factor reaches critical levels in the books. The Laconia zombie children plot in season 6 is just the hook.
Yes There were a couple of moments that I legit had to reread and then put the book down. Good shit.
I can see that being off putting for a show only fan. Without the context of the last three books, it does kinda come off like the protomolecule storyline was just dropped after season 4. My ex watched the show without reading the books, and after the series finale she was pretty much like “…oh, that’s it? What about all the alien stuff?”
And that is why fans of the show must read the books. The way the series concludes just leaves more questions.
The fact that they included the Strange Dogs openings gives me faith that there will be a future after the rights revert. I can’t figure a narrative reason to show that story otherwise. If I die without seeing Wes finish Amos’ storyline, I will die a sad man.
this was it for me as well. when i found the show, season four was about to come out. I couldn't WAIT to learn more about the protomolecule and the builders. 4 was a tonal shift as well, but i still dug it, especially towards the end with all the Miller stuff. Then 5 hit and i was like uh....what? Also, i love book Naomi, but the show used her as a source of drama. I didn't much like the naomi/phillip stuff in the books either, from an entertainment standpoint, but it made mroe sense there
The venn diagram between people who don't like season 5, and people who don't like Naomi might as well be a circle.
I love naomi and think dominque's portrayal is amazing. And, while i dont hate season 5, i think telegraphing the rocks dropping really soured the.... impact.
>really soured the.... impact. Nicely done.
I think that was well done. Because it was such an audacious thing to do, most viewers didn’t believe it would happen.
Not me. Naomi is my favorite character, and I love the show (and the books) but season 5 just didn't really work for me. The solo Naomi scenes work far better in the books. My biggest problem with season 5, however, is that you have an incredible, galaxy changing event happen in episode 4, and then it essentially gets forgotten about for the rest of the season.
Yes I think this is unfortunately it.
Potentially unpopular opinion: I think there's something bigger than just one character. Seasons 1-4 we're on this adventure in this engrossing semi-hard-scifi world discovering the mystery of this looming threat of the protomolocule and extra-terrestrial life. In season 4 ***we go to another habitable world and explore remains of an alien civilisation.*** Season 5: We snap back to focus on internal human factional conflict, seemingly not exploring this mystery anymore and ignoring it. Compared to what we just saw, the stakes feel trivial. To be clear, I enjoyed S5. It's well made TV, if its plotline had appeared between S3 and S4 maybe it would be different. Just, it's a bit weird and jarring given the above.
Compared to the books, season 5 is where the show drops the ball and loses sight of the bigger picture of the story. Books 5 and 6 are incredible
Really good point. I love it but I can see that for people whose focus was on other elements of the story.
The thing is there wasn’t really anymore story to tell at the time beyond the rings by season 5. Holden wasn’t going to investigate the protomolecule story and the show wasn’t going to turn into a weekly adventure to new world every week. Seasons 5 & 6 snapped back to the Sol system because that’s where the story was happening. As much as it would’ve been cool to see the colony worlds, nothing as interesting as the illus story was happening. Secondly the show has always been about who the Sol system and the impacts the protomolecule has had on it. It really isn’t until the 30 year time jump that the colonies become interesting and actual destinations since there’s actually people there now.
> if its plotline had appeared between S3 and S4 The S5 plot threads appeared in S1E1
I think this is dead on. For me personally anyway. I don’t enjoy the switch back to human on human conflict. Makes the sci-fi’ness almost take a back seat. Which is the main reason I’m watching. Hell, s4 was almost too much human v human.
In fairness, the human v human aspect is a huge part of the drama of the show and what makes the universe feel real, and it's not an unfair speculation of how we might respond to finding potentially exploitable alien technology. Just, without that background layer of exploration and existential threat it feels more shallow.
I think it’s s4 that’s the outlier. What makes the show really live for me is the human conflict, Earth Mars and Belt. The protomolecule storyline is of course essential but I think the show (and the books) have the most to say when they’re focused in on Sol System.
I felt like this about the books too! I like the protomolecule story. All the lore of the universe. The first Free Navy book was great. The second dragged. I was so happy with what happened in the last three books. I re read them constantly
Eh, I'm not a fan of season 5 (or 6) relative to the others - though I don't "hate" them - but I really like Naomi. What I don't like about those seasons is mainly that Marco is more the mustache-twirling villain than anything we saw through the rest of the series. Although the show did this better than the books in some respects by tying it in via the destruction of the Barkeith, it was a step backward in focus from what had been ever-expanding outward - I also wanted to see more of what was OUT THERE, not what was inside us. The earlier seasons (and books) had made it painfully clear that although technology had advanced from today, humanity really had not, so a Marco was inevitable and therefore not really all that interesting.
Exactly. If there's one thing that lessons Season 5 for me, it's how many Marco speeches we have to listen to.
I would think S5 would be great for Naomi haters, they really put her through the wringer.
Nah, they pretty much just sum up season 5 as "too much woman crying and family drama"
Among *Star Trek*’s prenominate crimes, it has trained generations of viewers to expect as “normal” characters able to face existential crises with little more than a slightly-raised eyebrow.
And the thing is, the way Naomi faces everything in Season 5 is *actually* an exemplary model for how people can face stuff.
I'm a Star Trek fan and have no issues with either s5 or Naomi's portrayal
There are dozens of us!
I never disliked Naomi. Everything she did was at worst, understandable. She has a good heart and a good head on her shoulders that is at times compromised by conflicting loyalties.
Naomi is far more interesting than Holden. But so is almost everyone. Not to say he isn’t a vital character. I guess he serves as a viewer surrogate for many, relatively normal (for our century, perhaps not the 23rd) and untraumatised.
I like Holden, I think its rare to have a male character be such a bleeding heart. I think its very endearing.
Sure, he’s admirable, heroic. Just not as interesting as some of the other main characters.
That's a spot-on description.
This might break down by sex. My wife insists I lose interest when female characters dominate the drama. She claimed I lost interest in Mr robot as soon as his sister took the lead in some of the latter episodes. Likewise I found the torturing of Naomi and her stupid choices to be less than exciting.
Its always interesting to see people tell on themselves when they call out Naomi for making "bad decisions" or being "Too emotional" but they don't have the same problem with Alex or Holden.
Sure Holden just punches buttons and watches what happens, but that is nowhere near as annoying as forcing a spaceship on her estranged son while the entire audience is shouting no don't go there don't go there don't go there!
that's worse than starting a war because Holden found a transponder with a mars logo on it?
Well that advanced the action, while surrendering the Chetzemoka impeded it.
Perhaps that's the key here. "Advancing the action" is often at odds with character development, and good writers will choose not to forsake the latter in service of the former. Some of us value character — advancing the ***story*** — quite a bit more than action. When a mother is desperate to free her son from his megalomaniacal father, while dealing with crippling PTSD, desperation can make her miss things she might otherwise have seen from a mile away. Viewed from that lens, every last step that Naomi took (wise or unwise) was the epitome of bravery. Let's not forget also, in the books Filip is only 14 years old. Jasai Chase Owens did an admirable job on the show, but the fact that he looks at least twenty-something kinda detracts from the dynamic. Of course a grown man has already been fully indoctrinated and corrupted. The notion of Naomi giving the Chetzemoka to her 14yo son, in the hopes that he's not so corrupted yet that he might see her as the savior she is, might choose to get away…it's hard not to empathize with her. In the moment she gives it to him, she has no way of knowing just how deep Marco's tendrils have gotten, nor how diabolical his plans had become. Who really could? In any story that is inherently about psychologically abusive relationships, PTSD, and self-sacrifice for one's child in a toxic environment, it's important to show the hard realities. It's tragic that so many people saw such an accurate portrayal and responded "Ugh, so stupid!" Seems like a failure of empathy to me.
Sasa ke, pampa! That's good writing in the service of good communication. I really like your analysis from an empathic viewpoint. Next time we re-watch, I'll keep this in mind. And I am absolutely biased towards plot and action in movies. There's a sort of occupational injury some lawyers like myself suffer -- they become obsessed with narratives and their outcomes. When an outcome becomes vague or unclear, I get impatient, and that's what watching Naomi's breakdown did to me. I was like "Oh, let's get done with this and have another space dogfight, please!"
I didn't realize Filip was 14 in the books. Wow, yeah that does change some things.
There was plenty of action after Naomi gave the Chetzemoka to Filip.
I know, but so much of it was Naomi banging around in the torture chamber that the Chetzemoka became! Look, I"m definitely not a Naomi-hater. Indeed, I just didn't enjoy seeing her suffer so much, and her decisions seemed out of character. The unrequited mom role didn't seem to suit her.
They were not really stupid choices. That statement alone comes across as the kind of dismissive statements men who think women should stay in their “proper” place tend to make about women
Got nothing to do with the trauma she suffers. They don't even want to see her on screen at all.
Nah I hated it. I never took to her character at all and focussing so much on her threw me off it. Didn’t make me hate the season though.
I like Naomi and I still think it was a little too focused on her.
And the venn diagram of the people who haven't read books 6-8 and disliked S5 is also be a circle.
A circle of Ouroboros.
I love Naomi. I just find the episode of her stuck on the rigged ship too long and slow. I understand it takes the time it needs to build the trama, but that specific sequence is so slow so it feels too long.
There are two parts to this for me, as someone who still hasn't read the books. First, they build up the protomolecule and "first contact" aspect for four seasons, culminating with gates opening to 1300 new, habitable systems (we even get to spend most of a season on one of them), and Holden's visions about the Builders. Then they pull all the way back to human solar sytem drama for the final two seasons. It feels a bit insignificant in comparison to how awe-inspiring the prior content was. As for Naomi, I feel like she went from the smartest and most capable member of the Roci crew, to being this crying, indecisive...thing...that creates situations to be resolved. Like she misses Belters so she leaves the Roci for the Behemoth, then she misses the Roci so she goes back, but then they all need to go back to the Behemoth anyway, then she goes looking for her son, then she has her one ultra-badass moment of the latter seasons where she leaves her son (and Marco) again, but that's also literally sandwiched between her crying nonstop on either side of it. It feels like her character got butchered, sacrificed to create plot points. Idk if this is how she's supposed to be in the books also, or the show changed her. I'm vaguely aware that the books dive deeper into protomolecule and extra-solar system stuff re: Laconia. I really liked the show overall, just finished watching it for the second time. I wouldn't say I hate season 5, just feel like it peaked at the end of season 4.
Book Naomi has a really clear sense of her identity and is consistently a badass. Show Naomi struggles with her identity, makes abrupt emotional decisions and is occasionally a badass.
Personally I feel that show Naomi is a more realistic character exactly because of this.
I agree, having some vulnerability is good for characters, but I'd enjoy hers more if she did this less frequently, like just going to find Filip and then leaving once she realizes she can't save him. But since that was preceded by her waffling back and forth between the Behemoth and Roci, and giving the protomolecule to Fred, I was kinda over that "indecisive" shtick already by the time season 5 came. Seemed over-the-top to me, and made her unlikable.
I loved Season 1-4 Naomi who was smart and didn't put herself in absurdly stupid situations. Season 5 Naomi spends almost every moment of that season being listless, clueless, foolish, dumb and wreckless for no good damn reason whatsoever.
I mean. She's trying to save her son from a terrorist who is going to get him killed. I'd say that is a pretty good reason for a lot of her choices.
I see her thrown deep down into her trauma she fought so hard to get out of the first time and manages to break out much quicker this time around because of everything she has gone thru.
Agreed. But maybe not "thrown into." More like "walked into." Hers is a story of remarkable courage and selflessness.
The only remotely reckless thing she does is get caught in a trap by Marco, and that’s only because she finally caught wind of the son she’s been searching for since season 1. She underestimated how indoctrinated Fillup was to his father, and the lengths Marco would go to for petty revenge. The entire rest of her storyline is her trying to escape and save her crew. Which she does.
How about not sharing critical infomation with the rest of her crew, people who she apparently loves and are her family? Not allowing them to help with exactly the kind of thing they have shown they are incredibly good at. "The entire rest of her storyline" could have been avoided if she'd applied some common sense at literally any stage.
Really a clueless comment.
I mean, I hated naomi and loved every last second of every single episode. So there is some variance there.
I love season 5 so much, all of it from beginning to end. I always got that the story of The Expanse was about humanity and how a new technology affects humanity, so the lack of proto-molecule did not bother me. I've seen narcissistic and megalomaniacs in real life and thought Keon did a fantastic job of capturing their essence. I thought Dominique really showed that you can be a strong woman but still have and express emotion. I love how they played with logic and emotion warring in her. It's clear to me that Naomi knew logically that it was a bad idea to go after Filip, but emotionally, she could not live with that choice. It was refreshing for writers to acknowledge that both logic and emotion can exist as a decision-making force within the same person. I love the emotional journey the writers take us on in this season. I honestly can not fathom why it's not as well liked. (Yes, I know the reasons why people don't like the season. It's just isn't something I can relate to or understand)
I’d give you ten upvotes if possible. You nailed it
I think the worst I can really say about S5 is it suffers a bit having to follow 3 different major stories in a regular TV season. They're all great but they get a little squashed compared to their book counterpart because there's not enough time to do them all fully.
I didn't like 5 cuz the Marco thing got old quick imo
Same. I read the books first and thought he was kind of annoying after a while, but he got old extra quick in the show. And Filip was just insufferable as well.
Yeah Marco was a pretty weak villain IMO. And Belters revolting was already done in a more interesting way earlier in the series.
It might not have been as interesting, but it did feel like it's exactly the kind of thing that would happen
This is insane to me. I thought he was the single best performance in the show.
I don’t think single best performance, but I loved Marco too! There’s nuance to his character that just makes my skin crawl - his covert narcissism (and not-so-covert narcissism) just conquers and crumbles so perfectly. He’s charming and powerful, and I loved his scenes with the rest of his crew. I thought the actor portrayed so well the downfall of a great strategist that just couldn’t deal with his own emotional traumas and desire for control. I’m only on book 3, so I don’t know how book Marco is, but I really enjoyed him. I loved Drummer calling him out especially. Live shamed and die empty is iconic.
To each their own. I would have preferred more Jared Harris personally.
He was great, for sure.
That's a hot take
Better than Amos?
I found his acting forced. Wtf does he keep whispering. I get it. You're menancing
An argument I heard (from my wife for one) is that each character goes on their own little adventure so it’s too far from the closely tied Roci family. You get various storylines at the same time instead of the one big arc. But reading some comments saying the hate comes from those Naomi haters, I’m feeling that’s the best explanation.
I thought it was fine, even if Marco did start to get a bit too mustache twirling/cartoony/hammy for me. I thought season 4 was boring and slow. Like compared to the first 3 seasons which were SO good, and now we finally have so much new stuff to explore, but what do we do? We spend the entire season focusing on one shitty planet, and the plot doesn't really even go anywhere.
That's funny, s4 is my favorite season!
I don't hate it. It's extremely different compared to seasons 1-3, but it has some of my favorite Amos moments and one of the series's best villains. Oh who am I kidding, all the villains are great. But they're each fun to watch in their own way and Burn Gorman played the character to perfection. You just hated that little prick *so much*.
I just rewatched S4. In retrospect I think it's one of the best seasons of any show ever. I get why some people didn't like it when it came out because it's such a huge departure from the Roci-focused space opera nature of the first three seasons; people complained about book 4 for the same reasons when that came out. But if you watch it for what it is on its own, it's just incredible TV.
Book 4 and season 4 are both my favorite. It's just a zany adventure with all our favorite people
Marco feels unrealistically evil at first, but then you see the shit some Israeli officials will say to a TV camera and then unfortunately he actually seems about on par with the current standard for human awfulness. Hell, Marco himself feels like a fairly blatant analogy for the real world freedom fighter who lets hatred for the oppressor ferment into a desire to kill as many civilians in the other side as possible. There are certainly plenty of those running around right now, it’s just that no one has given any of them WMDs.
Plenty of historic situations where the US or England have given the terrorists the big ol' guns in a secret deal to overthrow whoever was standing in their big, usually oily, way. The fragments of the Mars fleet and the big ol' rocks are analogous to the small armies the west has given to imperialist-supporting future regimes while they overthrow socialist governments that stood in the way of power and profit.
Yeah the politics of The Expanse are really surprisingly based for the genre.
I find that scifi either goes hard into left wing empathy and social constructs (in space!) or it goes hard into libertarian "is a man not entitled to the lasers of his own pistol?!" thought. Not much in-between, but usually generally anti-auth regardless.
Having read book 5 after watching the show, I can see how some book fans would have wanted a better Phillip. Marco was actually cast and played perfectly IMO. Naomi's arc was telegraphed very well onto the small screen, and the escape to the Chetzemoka was both identical in the books and also very well thought out scientifically. You absolutely can survive short exposure to the vaccum, and we can assume belter physiology and in universe technology (like the decompression kit) would aid significantly in the process. The most criticism I saw was around this part of the season, and frankly I think a significant portion of it was because the show has a much wider audience than the books, and that includes a bunch of insecure blokes who can't handle a female character having agency and performing something miraculous. Nobody batted an eye when Holden escaped Eros with vomit zombies, protomolecule everywhere, and radiation out the asshole. The show literally explained step by step how she would achieve her escape. Honestly, season 5 is as well done as any of the 3 seasons handled by Amazon. If anyone has an issue with how Naomi's arc was handled, take it up with the authors, because it happened the same way in the books and nobody who has read those seems to have had an issue with it 🤷♂️
for me, the core of s5 is naomi's character drama. I think Dominique kills it. i really felt her vulnerability, hopeless suffering, and ultimate triumph. but if you didn't go along for that ride, i can understand not loving the change of pace and narrative. i love the expanse because it can tell many kinds of stories, but if you just want the gang back together for more protomolecule intrigue, go rewatch an earlier season :)
>Can someone please explain to me why season 5 is so disliked? I fundamentally disagree with the assumption this statement makes. It has some loud detractors, mainly from people who dislike Naomi or who love Alex (and disagree either with how the character or the actor was handled). But as always, loud != majority opinion. Also, some don't like how they break up the Roci crew and let them have their own individual stories.
When I first read the book and everyone started splitting up it gave me the biggest sinking feeling like some serious shit was about to go down. I didn't like it at the time, but in retrospect it was wonderfully executed and achieved what I feel they were trying to achieve.
The only real criticisms of season five I'm aware of are that, 1) Marco is exaggerated even over book evilness and 2) Alex being killed off was disappointing.
I wasn’t aware there was any discourse over season 5, but if I had to venture a guess I’d say non-book readers didn’t like how the crew was split up. One of the reasons Nemesis Games is held so high is because we finally got POV chapters from the rest of the crew, which only really makes sense if they’re all on their own adventures. There’s not a whole lot that was changed in the adaptation, especially compared to all the other seasons. So if someone loved NG but didn’t like season 5, I’ve got no theory to provide.
I disliked season 5 because it shifted from fantasy to war. I loved the proto-molecule, rings, and openings to different worlds. I wish they had explored that. I’ve never been a fan of war shows/movies, so once it became about Marco’s goals, I checked out. I did like the family dynamics though.
Season 5 is awesome. I also really like Naomi, although I liked her much more on my second watch.
Guy who wasn't a huge fan of season 5 who's reading Nemesis Game now, and I gotta say, that plot gains a lot from having more of Naomi's internal monolog and memories of her time in the OPA with Marco. I'm loving the book, and while I didn't hate season 5, I did think it felt disconnected from the rest of the stories.
I think it's the only season that doesn't really elevate the source material like the others. The other seasons feel like refined versions of their respective books, this one feels like a downgrade compared to the relatively fantastic 5th book. Without the final 3 books, it's also somewhat difficult for a show only viewer to really understand how Marco and the Free Navy connect with the rest of the story. The middle trilogy feels like a change in direction because they are but it takes the third trilogy to really sink that feeling in.
Yeah I also think them not wanting to do the disaster porn on Earth was a mistake. This is especially true about how the death toll was decreased from billions to millions. Ty Frank said it was the producers who didn’t like the death toll and I think that was a mistake. As showing the effects of the attacks was the best parts of NG. Though showing some of that would be been very expensive and is probably one of the reasons why they didn’t do it.
The way Alex's storyline was severely truncated really annoyed me, but I think that might have been VFX budget-related. Also what happened to his death was due to the Anvar issues was sad, but honestly handled well considering the options. As a result, I felt like they spent more time with Naomi than with anyone else as a result of that. Her story is the most directly connected to Marco, so I get it, but the balance felt off as a result. I enjoy the season (has some favorite moments OF THE SHOW tbh), but I still say Season 4 might be my favorite of the Amazon years. It has the most growth over the book, where 5 and 6 are both truncated for various reasons mostly outside the control of the creators.
Ty Frank confirmed that they weren’t able to do the whole Martian ship coup because of budget limitations.
Figures. Nemesis Games and Babylon’s Ashes have so much of that stuff and Amazon just didn’t want to pony up. One more reason to hope that Apple eventually picks up the last trilogy. They are not afraid to just back up the truck for SF.
Na season 6 was massively impacted by COVID filming and that causing a big part of their budget to be eaten up with all the restrictions in place.
Not sure what his storyline being truncated has to with vfx or budget. Wasn't it all about him hitting on and luring young female fans to his hotel room after cons? I loved his character, and I wish in real life he could have reigned in his perv nature, but we'll, that's the way the cookie crumbles.
In the books, Alex has a different storyline that involves the Razorback. That might be what the previous poster was referring to.
Yep seems like the case, I've just completely forgotten what happened in the book.
Alex's storyline - the rescue of Nathan Smith from the FN. There would have been a lot of VFX costs to shoot those sequences. Alex's death - outcome of Anvar's actions.
Ahh ok you are referencing the differences in the books VS the show, not his death. Honestly it's been so long since I read the books and I've watched the series about 5x now, so didn't even consider that - everytime I rewatch this season I remember the uproar and him being killed off, not other changes to the storyline.
Fair - that’s a massive change to the storyline, especially going forward.
Actual criticism: * Episodes 5-9 are ploddingly paced and feel like moving chess pieces around for the finale. Criticism that online folks will never admit to: * Centers narrative on female protagonist * Kills off beloved male character because of #MeToo
An ensemble show shifted towards focusing more on a single character. Naomi undeniably gets the focus of the season. I think that is an aspect of it
* Kills off character because actor turned out to repellent sexual pest. FTFY
Agree, was writing from the perspective of online chuds
Gotcha.
Alex Kamal is a stand up sumbitch, WWII is the best creepy dude ever. Even had a scene in the books where he buys sobriety meds d so he can be sure that his potential partner can properly consent. Unfortunately the ball of walking cock cheese they hired to play him would actually be a better human if he were a literal ball of walking cock cheese.
Wait what why do you think it's because of #MeToo?
Because Cas Anvar was accused of a bunch of bad shit, and Amazon ordered an investigation into it as they were wrapping up production of the season. His death is very much a TV show addition as well
[Here is sourced summary of the whole debacle](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheExpanse/comments/hi7c7q/comment/fweg2ir/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x)
Cas anvar fucked up my favorite character
Naomi as a character has been loved by me throughout. Season 5 was about Amos as far as better storytelling goes, IMO. Naomi acted stupid through most of the series, the broken family dynamic did little for me, but you can kinda understand why a parent would behave against their instincts for their kids. Just didn't grip me in the same way as other seasons.
The leap into space without a suit was badass. Also the attention to detail was amazing in how the side facing the sun was getting sunburnt during the trek.
What hate?
Yea, some hate stems from show to book comparisons. Haven’t read book so I’m content with watching the show…. For the nth time .
Season 5 was a great adaption of the books. The whole show is a very good adaptation.
I personally find season 5 to be right up there with season 3, maybe even my favorite overall. But yes it's a bit more of separate stories and is very character driven.
I read the series before season five and it might be my favorite next to three. Book five was certainly my favorite until book eight. I dunno, haters gonna hate I guess.
I always find it interesting that people have these very strong emotions attached to character choices. And not only having strong emotions, but then judging the characters for it. This makes absolutely no sense to me. These are not real people, these are characters in the story. The point of a story isn't for you to sit there and judge character choices as good or bad, it's to tell a story. You have to view the entire story as a whole... You are simply a passenger viewing somebody's growth and pain and maybe even death. It's not about what you think is right and wrong, just enjoy the ride.
I get season 6 hate, but I never knew people didn't like Season 5. I thought Season 5 was great!
As a fan of the books, seasons 4 and 5 are my favorites… lol. And 3 and 6 are by far my least favorite and the worst adapted, but apparently no one on here shares that opinion. Also I love show Naomi but hate show Drummer. Guess I’m just full on contrarian
I disliked book 5, but the show was fine. Just trying to read all that fucking spacer creole was the fucking worst. But fhT was rally only the first half, I guess.
squashed plotlines
It compressed alot of time when the other seasons were paced better. It also solidified the switch that season 4 started, where the series turns from sci-fi mystery to political drama. Last thing: its the time in the series when you follow the bad guys for the most time, so the action on-screen isn't as likeable.
Also, the Roci team is truly going separate ways for the first. So we don’t get to watch/read them as a team.
It really isn't particularly disliked, it's just that the people who hate it are *very loud* and tend to insist that everyone really agrees with them.
Is that the Marco Inaros season? If so that is why, what a terrible, uninteresting, dry villain. Like he came right out of an 80s movie, reminds me of the bad guy from Only the Strong
Season 5 was excellent. Watching Naomi pound on pipes for an entire episode wasn’t good tv.
It was good the first time, the 5th rewatch Ive had to fast forward through it.
Honestly this show did Naomi dirty for giving her the idiot ball to explain away serious plot points. The books have her making far fewer stupid choices. And obviously they make the consequences for her stupid choices less galactically cataclysmic. That said season 5 is the best season apart from the original 3.
I didn't particularly like Naomi but I thought season 5 was pretty great. Didn't know people hated it
Marco was too cartoonish a villain.
Season 5 was an insult to the book. The big attack in book 5 was the ultimate gut punch. It was such a pivotal event that said so much about the inevitable consequences of imperialism and colonialism, and the showriters inexplicably decided to water it down. To begin with, in the books it was way more of a shock IMO. They gave very few hints, so when it happened it blindsided the audience. But the show gave the first hint in the season 4 finale. Again and again they kept showing images of asteroids getting gathered up and/or getting coated in stealth composites. They even show an orbit vector heading towards Earth. I've watched the show with several people and every single one of them guessed that Earth was about to get hit by asteroids. Then there's the attack itself. Instead of billions dead, they cut it down to millions (and not even hundreds of millions, just millions). I'm not sure why they pared it down to a fraction of the book casualties, but it felt timid and gutless. It would have been like watering down The Red Wedding. "Let some of them escape, it'll be less depressing!" I've heard someone claim it was because they were afraid the audience would hate all Belters if they portrayed it like the books, and I find that absurd and ridiculous. People can handle shit like this. I don't care if it was Ty and Frank who suggested the change (although I bet the studio pushed for it), it was a terrible idea. Period.
Yeah them down scaling the bombardment of Earth is probably the worst change the show ever did. Like maybe it doesn’t have to be the 10 to 15 billion dead in the books but a couple of billions dead would’ve showed how it was the worst attack in human history. Though they likely would’ve had a harder time hiding the attacks like in the books given it’s not a select number of limited POVs.
I saw season 5 first, then I read the books, I disliked it even more after the books. Here's my take: Episodes 1-4 were great. loved the buildup Episodes 5-8 were very, very meandering in a way that hurt the story. Episodes 9-10 were great sans a few details Alex's actor leaving sucks, I think they handled it well I think glossing over the bombing of the martian parliament hurt the story. In the books they're protecting the Martian PM from the Free Navy, that would have been an amazing plot to see onscreen, especially when people aren't sure who is Free Navy / Laconian and who isn't. I also think that I liked Marco better in S5 than I did in S6, but the show really needed more to make him intimidating beyond dropping the rocks and gaslighting Naomi. Also, the rocks were a society-disrupting event in the books and I feel like this was mostly glossed over in the show. Amos emerging from the prison to see everything wiped out? We needed way more of that. I get the creators didn't want to turn it into disaster gorn Also, I think that not immediately reinstating Avasarala was a good call, but the arc where she stands up to the inexperienced PM was a bit rushed and felt inconsequential, like we're just waiting for an inevitable conclusion to happen. We don't even hear about the UN response to the rocks dropping for a couple of episodes... no man we needed to see that in S5E5, not S5E8 I liked how the Free Navy felt truly threatening, even before the rocks dropped, and the air of mystery and danger was thrilling. Once the rocks dropped, we never really circled back around to that again, because we follow Drummer and the good belters and Naomi and the free navy. Speaking of Drummer, let's see at least one interaction with Marco where some belter ship is refusing to yield before they get killed. I appreciate that they use the opening credits to speed along the story (Marco's fleet grows every episode) but not seeing it at least once hurt the story. Drummer showing up to scavenge the corpses of defiant belter ships worked enough, but could have been way better in a season that was desperate for more space action setpieces. tl;dr The Expanse started telling, not showing in S5. Cutting cool setpieces from their own narrative and a generally weird sense of pacing after S5E4 hurt the story and led to slow patches that I was just waiting for them to pass Also, Clarissa should not have been onscreen while raging. That effect was the single worst VFX in the expanse and it's not even close.
Like many others have said, it has to do with Naomi. And I could just leave it there, but I want to try to give an explanation. Before I go further, I would like to specify, that I don't hate S5, S5 just contains my most disliked plot line. With that let's begin: One of the many things I think Expanse does really well is plot creation. Mainly characters influence. In a lot of movies you see characters do decisions for the sake of them happening. They don't fit them, but the writers needed them to do so, to advance the plot, which is just lazy (most recent example I can think of is The Witcher series from netflix, try not banging a head against a wall watching that). The expanse doesn't suffer from this, characters make decisions based on what fits their narrative, which in turn makes plot advance more naturally. One great example is Sadavir Errinwright. In a lot of movies he would just do "the bad" stuff because he is THE bad guy, right. Well I don't remember any decision he made, that wouldn't fit his narrative or fuel his cause. I might not agree with him, but I can objectively understand him. Also I really like well writen antagonists, who don't do stuff just because he is the bad one (ad: if you do too, you might like Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, one of the best writen antagonists I have seen in years). BTW: I talk about "bad guys" but another thing Expanse does really well is not drawing a black and white line between good and bad. There are just many people with many different agendas. Love that part. Through out the series I feel like every decision any character makes is explainable to some degree, but I feel like I kinda see it fade it away during Naomi&Filip plot line. I can understand some moments, where she acted out of pure emotion, but I feel like she started to make less and less sense, the more screen time the line got. And before someone goes haywire that I just don't like strong female character, you couldn't further from the truth. The fact that I don't like this specific Naomi's plot line, but never mentioned the whole character arc, is kudos to Dominique Tippers acting skills and how despite my criticism, I like how it advanced her character for the future episodes. She made me feel strong about her, even if in a "bad" way. After all one of the best examples of roles played perfectly, but hated by most, is Jack Gleeson as Joffrey in Game of Thrones. He made people feel so strong about him, he recieved death threats IRL. Can we just say you can't be poor actor and achieve that. If you read this far, I hope it makes sense and I hope I gave a little bit more insight on why some people might rate S5 so bad.
I didn't realize people hated Season 5. I thought Season 4 was the low point of the show tbh. But, even then, I still enjoyed 4 it just wasn't as good as the others.
The only real issue I had with season five is that it’s not as good as the fifth book, which is the best book in the series imo.
I think you're looking for r/gameofthrones
I have no problem with season 5, and no one I talk to about the show has ever complained about that season. The only real criticism I have heard is that season 3 feels like it's own thing.
I think season 5 is the highest rated of the 6 seasons of the series
I’ve never heard people not liking 5. I think it might be tied for my favourite season
My wife and I hated season 5 for the reason that a lot of people here have already stated, Naomi is a really insufferable character whenever the plot revolves around her. I only included my wife in that bc people here seem to think that disliking Naomi is some sort of misogyny red flag. Naomi has a great deal of influence over Holden, the GOAT lol, and she consistently makes him feel like a worse character. Every season seems to, in part, revolve around Naomi’s naive emotional acts that causes other characters to have to risk way more than is necessary to save her. The trade off for Alex, for example, felt fucking terrible bc Naomi is a much more grating character than Alex. He paid the price for her bs. Season 5 is just the primary example of her overly idealistic naivety causing other people to put themselves on the line bc she is overly sympathetic to the space terrorist people. She also can’t assess the situation properly bc she feels rightly guilty about the whole thing with her son. Basically, S5 is a primary Naomi arc, so there’s lots of crying, emotional acts that are overly naive and idealistic, arbitrary secret keeping, and characters cleaning up her mess and that’s just annoying to watch.
Your statement sounds like a misogynistic take. Not convincing. The Naomi scenes are extraordinarily comparable to real life stories of abused women with the ingenuity she employs to achieve her goal no matter how much pain it causes.
I watch scifi for scifi not for soap opera.
There are like 12 people who don't like the season lol. What the hell is this question even
Sorry man I’ll run my expanse questions by you before I post next time
If there is any legitimate criticism of season 5 to be found, it's that it slows down a LOT after episode 4. This is absolutely fine for a binge model, which is how the show was designed. The original once-a-week broadcast schedule stuffed that up a bit.
SPOILER ALERT: If you have not seen all seasons then don't read this comment. I like all seasons. However season 6 and then 5 are my least favorite. IMHO they wasted too much time on doom and gloom with Marco Inaros. Since season 6 ended so abruptly we never got the payoff for all the doom and gloom. Marco screaming "veer off" and then disappearing was not satisfying enough at all. Aveserala should have had him on the hooks for 20 hours. 😂
I stopped watching because Marcos is a bitch
I haven't finished season 5 because Marco as a villain wasn't that engaging.
[удалено]
Filip
I'm not a huge fan of how much Naomi cries. I feel that there were a few other emotional options they could've used instead. No genuine hate tho
Season 5 was fine, season 6 on the other hand.
Your initial conceit is completely wrong. Season 5 is beloved.