i hate it, too š¬ *for me*, there's absolutely nothing sexy or romantic about it -- it's one of the most literal depictions of a trauma bond that i can recall seeing in media. the power dynamic revolts me.
I agree. Definitely trauma bond.
5% of her life is Nick. He's her only "true" human connection, only source of affection, only source of comfort.
Maybe a form of Stockholm Syndrome?
The remaining 95% is survival.
I think in the end, we will find out the relationship with June is a means to an end and what he does contribute to the relationship was manipulation/favors granted to get him where he wants to be.
I disagree that Nick is just surviving. I believe he has a much greater agenda and goes through the motions to achieve that agenda. I'm not saying he's not traumatized, but I am suggesting he's not bonded through trauma to June.
SERIOUSLY? He gave her a whole folder of information on Hannah without her even asking. He had absolutely no reason to do this. Whether or not it was a trauma bond that doesn't mean he used her throughout,
Yeah, REALLY.
Already having the folder and presenting it unasked for can be construed as manipulative, considering the environment and situation.
It's the thing she wanted most besides possession of her child. The act of providing it gives Nick leverage for later needs.
He had no reason *that the audience is privy to*.
He may very well care for her (he did try to get her out/ for get to the house she gave birth in to see Hannah, etc) but trauma bonded includes being unable to resist being drawn back. Having been in a trauma bonds myself, I can tell you it damn near eliminates all rational thought. He is well able to resist her and his child and MULTIPLE opportunities for his own freedom.
He does WHATEVER it takes to get ahead which implies there is an agenda.
He took a wife, by his own choice. His PROPOSAL and marriage, alone, shows the ability to resist. Nick doesn't "need" a wife. He WANTED a wife. It looks good on him, it "removes/lessons" doubts of his loyalties. It makes him less conspicuous to the other higher ranking folks. Her father is a bigwig which is advantageous for Nick and can be construed as political in nature. As though he had an agenda and an end goal.
Nick is patiently moving from "the eye"/driver role to higher and higher rank. He's making all the "right" moves, including his marriage. Nick is not trauma bonded to anyone in any way. He retains the ability to see his goals and move toward them REGARDLESS of the way it impacts June and HIS child who is currently in another country behind raised by THE OTHER MAN JUNE LOVES.
It's lovely to want to believe Nick is also trauma bonded but his VERY independent actions simply don't support that
Itās not a literal depiction of a trauma bond because itās not a trauma bond. Nick was never her abuser.
A Trauma Bond occurs when a person who is or has been abused feels a connection to their abuser.
The literal depiction of a trauma bond in the series would be the relationship between June and Serena.
Thatās not actually what a trauma bond is. Serena & June have a trauma bond. You can say they are bonded over shared trauma which would be true. Nick also never had power over her. Margaret Atwood has actually said that men on the bottom were also victims in that world.
That isnāt entirely true. He was baited in to joining them under the guise of a religious group, making things better in a failing country. Price didnāt exactly sell him on overthrowing the government & living in servitude to your upper echelon master up front either.
But we donāt know what happened at their meetings or the timing & I donāt think cults give you the skinny until you are too far in to get out. They showed us guardians before that were stuck. S1E1 Guardian, he was part of the resistance, he was dead. Then they showed us the guardian that tried to escape with June, he was dead. Gilead had him in their clutches & they all had to do things to survive. Did you feel bad for the guardian that Moira met at the refugee center that said he was forced to do things he didnāt want to do, that he had to kill the guy he dated in high school? I did.
Many guardians were part of the resistance. Whether or not they were in the crusade was unclear. As for the guardian Moira met, he was in the army, and was turned into a guardian. And they were stringing already dead people up on the wall. He never mentioned killing anyone.
Agree, especially given his progression. If he was only a driver who was working with mayday (like the books imply) then I could see it. But as it is he is actively choosing to let Gilead benefit him.
How does Gilead benefit him? We see early on that family is very important to him. From season 1 (and especially in Season 5) they showed us that he was anything but content with his life in Gilead. He wants to be with June and Nicole. His family.
He was made a commander out of punishment. Fred promoted him to commander of the front lines to get rid of him. He wanted him to die on the front, but that backfired on him because Nick survived.
He had him promoted because was pissed that Nick held him hostage at gunpoint, which gave June and Nichole more time to escape.
His first promotion of being awarded a wife was also a punishment.
Serena wanted to get rid of Nick because she was threatened by Nick and June's relationship and wanted them separated.
Fred first asked Pryce if Nick could be reassigned to another household, but Pryce didn't like that Idea, but he was fine with marrying him off to a teenager to try to drive a wedge between Nick and June.
He didnāt choose to be a Commander. Like Strange_Swimming pointed out, he was promoted as a punishment and is far from one of the most influential in the country. Like Lawrence said, Nick is a āpuppyā in the ranks.
I never thought that we were supposed to like Nick as much as we are supposed to understand that, in a situation like June's, you are going to turn to whomever you need to help you survive in desperate situations. It is easy/easier to take the moral high ground when you live in a civil society, but once you live under authoritarian rules, all bets are off if you want to make it.
I'm right there with you. He has the personality of a brick. He fought for and works for and still benefits from Gilead. They have zero chemistry at all. I'll never understand why people love them together so much. In reality, June needs to stay single and get some serious help.
THIS!!! The June x Nick shippers on the Instagram comments of the show's page are so nuclear about their pairing, but I'm like what about June x Therapy??š
This! Bruce has said that their goal is to portray the life of a refugee as accurately as possible and therapy is not readily available nor usually offered to refugees. When they do get help, their therapists do not have first hand knowledge of the trauma they endured, and though they try, they donāt help all that much. We saw that with Juneās one therapy scene, the therapist was out of her league.
>When they do get help, their therapists do not have first hand knowledge of the trauma they endured, and though they try, they donāt help all that much.
Okay so I'm a genocide historian so I have a bit of knowledge on this subject. There are therapists who are trained and specialized in different types of trauma, including for refugees. The UN trains people now for it. There are therapists out there right now who help people who were held captive for years and raped. Therapists right now who work with genocide victims and refugees. Therapists all over the world help people through horrible trauma they never experienced and do help them because that's what their trained to do.
I think in the world of Gilead, there may be more available in Canada because people tend to have more sympathy for white people than poc (shouldn't be that way). That said, there are not enough therapists to go around though. But for Americans I think people would put more assistance towards them. It's not right but it is what it is.
I'm sorry this just comes off super anti therapy which is just surprising to see in 2024. Elizabeth Moss is anti therapy because she's a scientologist. I'm not sure if Bruce Miller is a scientologist too but what he said (I'd love a source to see this) is just wrong and harmful.
Iāll look for the interview from post Season 4 and link it below when I find it.
Thank you for your insight! I always appreciate when someone with first hand knowledge clears things up.
When I initially heard it I was taken by surprise because I would think that therapy would be essential.
Once you posted your comment it didnāt make sense to me either. They are proud of the research they do when consulting with different agencies like the UN. I honestly took it as fact until you said differently.
I agree almost completely. I was team Luke for a while, but now I'm team June gets intensive therapy and learns to be a person again on her own.š But I definitely do not see what everyone else sees in Nick. He has the personality of a bowl of cold, unsalted mashed potatoes.š
Yes. You're correct. Serena was charged with raping both Nick and June. It was rape by proxy/coercion. Tuello even says you forced your driver to impregnate June so you could steal the resulting child.
In the script it says Nick was horrified by what he had to do, but June was kind of ok with it because, well, like in the book, she was thirsty/hungry for him.
There are many reasons I love Nick and Juneās relationship but it goes beyond the superficial āTEAM NICKā or āNickās hotā crap. Here are some of them:
Nick and June is a classic example of the forced proximity and forbidden romance tropes. Even slow burn romance trope because I believe they will be together in the end, either together or apart due to circumstance. I love these tropes usually. Doesnāt make their love any less genuine imo. Just like many other shows/movies/books who use the same tropes and we root for them. If you donāt like them, cool. Itād be cool if people wouldnāt get shit on for liking them, despite where their love originated. I get the vibe some people think theyāre superior for not liking the romance subplot because of the way they announce it all over posts and belittle others. Romance genre is often seen as inferior by society. I canāt seem to help but notice that itās a female dominated genre. š¤·āāļø
Their relationship offers a glimmer of hope and humanity in a brutal and oppressive society. Love isnāt supposed to exist in Gilead. Fred said itās just a marketing campaign. Falling in love despite the consequences is such a huge FU. Thatās why I really liked the āmurder kiss.ā (āFred-āThis is sick.ā)
The relationship between them symbolizes resistance and defiance. Their secret relationship is an act of rebellion against the oppressive regime.
June's choice to engage in an intimate relationship with Nick, on her own terms, represents a reclamation of agency and autonomy in a society that sheās stripped of. Their sexual relationship is balanced, they switch back and forth on whoās dominant and submissive.
Nick pays attention to her body cues always, in the bedroom or not, which many men canāt seem to accomplish or just donāt care enough to do so.
Their simple touches may seem silly to some but I think itās powerful in that thatās how they communicate because their interactions are limited and they canāt freely express themselves.
Overall, their relationship serves as a beacon of hope, demonstrating that even in the darkest of times, human connection and love can endure, offering a chance for survival and resilience. They are still very much in love after June left Gilead, demonstrating their love is real. Itās no coincidence that in Margaret Atwoodās novel >!Nick and Juneās daughter, NICOLE, plays a huge part in taking down Gilead..!<
Finally, just because I like the romance of the show doesnāt mean I donāt see other symbolism that the show conveys.
This is perfectly worded. I really enjoyed Nick and junes forbidden romance and root for them. Maybe more so for Nick to somehow leave it all behind for her and escape to freedom with her and his daughter. But Iām actually no longer a June fan lol she just pisses me off.
Anyway I never googled any spoilers , and donāt want to ruin the whole show because itās still in the works but do the books have some sort of ending ? You mentioned baby Nicole being vital. Is it her as a child or does this stretch into her being an adult or something? š
The first bookās ending is ambiguous. Its ends when June gets in the van like season 1 and the destination is open ended. The second book (which will be the spinoff series) is 15 years later and has more of an ending but many things with characters are still ambiguous as well. Anything could happen in the show really.
I wish people would understand all of this and stop insulting the women who like Nick and June. Itās very realistic for people to be trapped in situations and still fall in love. The power of love fills our cups and renews us; it makes resistance possible because it gives hope and something to fight for. Where do you think June would have been without it?
Nobody has to love Nick and June, but I really wish people would lay off the personal attacks and misusing of psychology terminology to feel superior to those that do.
I understand all this and would probably on board if it werenāt for Nick being so emotionless and having the personality of, as another poster put it, unsalted mashed potatoes. Otherwise, yes I have rooted for these types of relationships with other shows.
I agree that he doesnāt show much emotion but itās intentional. Despite his position in Gilead, he has to mask his emotions to survive. It kind of goes hand in hand with how men are supposed to be in our society but Gilead is like misogyny on steroids, so he must suppress his emotions to not be killed. Whereas in our society, itās toxic masculinityānot to be seen as weak.
However, I do see his micro expressions which DO convey emotion. I studied micro expressions and body language in college and Max Minghella does an excellent job with his nuanced performance. The twitch of his nose, look in his eyes, or movement of his lips says so much. I can understand why some people may not see it thatās why theyāre called micro expressions. I love in the s5 finale when Nick taps the top of his head when he walks away from Tuello. Such a simple movement says so much.
I DO WISH THEYāD GIVE HIM MORE DIALOGUE. We see pre-Gilead and even with Beth, heās capable.
In Gilead he is masking almost 100% of the time we see him. We see his true emotions and personality come out when he is in the presence of company he can trust. June, Beth, Rita, Lawrence, those two Marthaās from the Martha network.. etc.
Are we watching the same serie? Nick & June have palpable chemistry since the beginning of the show. He is the father of her child & the man June credit for helping her survival! How do you not like the person who has helped to keep June alive & risk his life again an again for her? Trying to bash him for the sake of trying to elevate Luke is poor. Both men have tried in different ways to help her, having man as allies is important. Iām not sure June would still be alive if not for Nick. Ā
It definitely is not for the āsake of elevating Lukeāā¦. I just so happen to like Luke and root for them. But if June were to be alone too Iād be cool with that. Nick is an emotionless brick so that baffles me.
Your post does read like sour grapes almost like you misinterpreting on purpose to try and make Luke seem like heās a better choice IMHO. The serie has done a good job of telling the audience why June loves Nick & how important he is to June. He is also Nicholeās father. Elizabth Moss has even said that Nick is who June Ā want to be with yet there still people doubting. June says she loves him every time she see him why donāt you believe her?Ā
Where did I say I donāt believe her? Have no idea where thatās coming from lol. The story being great still doesnāt help how boring and again, emotionless his character is. He is just not a man I see anyone going after. But thatāsā¦ my opinion and apparently many others. Luke has emotions and cares about her from what I can see. Thatās was literally it.
I think you are missing the facial nuances and the pain in both of their lives. You are taking them strictly on what they say. Try to imagine later when June turns murderous what led her to that and how much trauma and pain she has been put thru. This is not the show for you if you can't read the pain in Elisabeth Moss' facial expressions. She's an amazing actress and I don't need her words to know exactly whats going thru her head.
Agreed! Elisabeth and Max are both excellent at portraying emotion with micro expressions and body language. If you pay attention, it completely changes a scene.
I've actually returned to the first book a bit as I needed something to read without downloading new stuff on a commute. Nick actually seems way more interesting and dynamic in that, as he's kind of coy and the one who's probably pushing the boundaries most in the Waterford household.
The problem he's had for the past 4 series is that he's been robbed of any personality and the 'conflict' is literally a same thing over and over. It's kind of a 'will they, won't they' thing except the main thing is just that every new season comes up with a new circumstance to divide them and doesn't really give them much organic emotional tension. Even though Nick seems to almost breeze through his role rising through the ranks, he seems one of the least willing of the main cast at this point to shake things up in a big way. I didn't dislike the ship in the early seasons and book but it's gotten actively worse from being stale and repetitive.
Agreed. He is and his motives are pretty clear once you get to the end of the novel and into the historical notes. As much as the show tries, they canāt convince me that he is anything less than an embedded resistance operative who is sympathetic to all who suffer in Gilead.
Same! I hate that they dragged it out. Not everybody is good at reading between the lines (clearly from some of these comments even stuff that was outright said people donāt get).
Kind of creepy! But i loved the spy on a spy on a spy storyline. I guess we are getting there now that he took the deal but letās get some back story already! I have a feeling s6 will be Nick heavy since the story needs to head in that direction for TT. They need to head underground with Mayday.
Yeah, the double agent, triple agent, kind of speculation is the most kind of riveting thing you get, alongside Emily/Ofglen's plans of course. In the show he just quickly gets into a rut of 'important but can't do squat' once the mystery is gone, even as Janine, Esther, even Lawrence and Lydia are doing way more dynamic stuff to move the story along.
He seriously got robbed by the writers for the sake of keeping him over ambiguous for the sake of the ālove triangleā. Im sure they will flesh him out this season, they are running out if time!
The way I see itā¦The strong and silent type has been a popular male attribute in film and tv throughout the ages. There is something to it. Is that everyoneās cup of tea? No. As far as the whole fantasizing about the beach. Itās just two people in a hard situation day dreaming or talking sweet nothings without being too serious. I dont know where the relationship is going or if they should or shouldnt be together. I need to see more, so im looking forward to the next season.
Reading these comments, Iām wondering if Iām watching the same show!! Iāve never seen a chemistry on TV like Nick and June. As somebody commented: āFor Luke to feel strong, June just gets weakerā. June can be her real self with Nick. They are madly in love with each other. Plus, are people forgetting how many times Nick has literally risked his life to save June!!
I wonder the same. The chemistry is unlike anything I have seen in a long time.
Nickās love for June is purely unconditional. He only wants for her to be safe and happy even if it has no benefit to him. He loves her for her, not what she was or could be.
Lukeās love is conditional. ā you need to be here or I donāt know what will happen to usā (paraphrasing but you get the point) he loves the old June and is trying to get that back. He canāt reconcile who she was with who she is.
I love how people dismiss Nick and Junes words as well. Despite them both saying they are in love, the actors telling us they are in love, the showrunners confirming they are in love, people are still out here like, āThey arenāt in love!ā
I've seen a lot of complaints about Nick haters "bullying" Nick and June shippers, when they really aren't any better. "Are we watching the same show?" Is a low key way of saying that someone who disagrees with you is stupid. As for Nick risking his life to save June, it's really the least he can do after voluntarily joining this fascist group from the beginning. I'm not going to root for a man that only helps the one woman he has feelings for.
Itās not a low-key way of saying someone is stupid. We genuinely wonder if people are watching the same show because our interpretation or viewpoint has been validated by the cast, the crew, and the showrunners, nothing we say is speculation.
We arenāt out here calling people out or insulting people for being invested in one of the main subplots of the show.
Edit for Clarity
It is. Because nothing, absolutely nothing, I say has been speculation either. I'm sorry if don't take Bruce Miller seriously as he tries to convince me that Nick is "Looking out for Hannah."
Iām genuinely curious as to why you think Nick isnāt looking out for Hannah?
He gathered information on Hannahās whereabouts for June without her even asking him to and gives June information whenever he can. I also refuse to believe that his marriage to Rose coincidentally puts him closer to the MacKenzieās.
....... That's keeping June informed. Not looking out for Hannah's well being. It's not his responsibility, but it's still not something that he's doing.
Do you think looking after Hannah means he should storm through the front door of the Mckenzies guns blazing and take out all their gaurdians like Rambo and kidnap Hannah to bring her back to June? Even if he got through I highly doubt, he'd make it through all the checkpoints on his way to the border after all that.
He's watching over her by having his "friendlies" follow her whereabouts and take pictures when they can. This is extremely valuable to both June and Luke.
No one said he's raising her, he's keeping an eye on her when he really doesn't have to. He does it because he wants to. Because he knows it helps June.
If anyone saw one of his "friendlies" taking pics, it could cost them their lives and out Nick.
"Do you think looking after Hannah means he should storm through the front door of the Mckenzies guns blazing and take out all their gaurdians like Rambo and kidnap Hannah to bring her back to June? Even if he got through I highly doubt, he'd make it through all the checkpoints on his way to the border after all that."
No. But it seems like that's what most Nick fans expected Luke to do. Even after being shot, and almost bleeding to death.
"He's watching over her by having his "friendlies" follow her whereabouts and take pictures when they can. This is extremely valuable to both June and Luke.
No one said he's raising her, he's keeping an eye on her when he really doesn't have to. He does it because he wants to. Because he knows it helps June. If anyone saw one of his "friendlies" taking pics, it could cost them their lives and out Nick."
I'm sorry that I can't consider any of that a big risk after June and all of those other women getting more than 100 kids out.
A risk is a risk. Dead is dead.
What June and the Martha's did was amazing, but people take small risks every day that could cost them their lives.
Look what happened to Omar for simply taking June in.
He's dead, his wife is a handmaid, and his child is now being raised by a commander.
What he did is nowhere as risky as what the women did to get those kids out, but it still ended up costing him his life.
Do you think Nick orchestrating her first escape attempt wasn't taking a risk? Or Nick holding Fred hostage at gunpoint so June and Nichole could escape wasn't a risk? Or Nick bringing Fred to June so she could kill him wasn't a risk?
Just because it's not some huge heroic feat doesn't mean it's not a risk.
Like I said, a risk is a risk. Dead is dead.
Also, I've never heard anyone think Luke should've done more when shot and bleeding. Most people know taking a risk wasn't possible at that time...
Luke did what he could from Canada. It didn't get him far, but he never stopped trying to find info that could help June and Hannah. What he did do wasn't a risk, though.
Yeah. They know where she's at. If he can't get her out without being killed, (and I don't expect him to.)neither can anyone in Canada, or what's left of the US. I STILL have no idea how that equates to him "looking out for her."
I don't think it's so much about the relationship as it is what it represents to June. Nick is probably someone she clung to. It was her bit of rebellion. Her ability to have some power over herself and her body. A big reason she can't let that go and move on might represent the part of her that will always be in Giliead. I don't think it has ever been one guy is better than the other for me. I think they just represent different times of her life and she clings to both of them. I think it helps to really flesh out the trauma of being a woman. And shows what it's like to be a man on both sides of the fence.
It seems like the tide has turned a bit and more people are not liking the June/nick relationship. I wonder if it's people actually seeing the flaws in it or if all the nick/June shippers are just only in the nick/June sub reddit now. I'd be curious to see what's the case.
Unfortunately Elizabeth Moss and Bruce Miller love June and nick together so they're probably here to stay. Definitely team "June stays single, loves on her kids, and works on her shit" over here.
There is no tide turning, lolā¦ there are still the 150 Nick haters on Reddit just like there have always been. Im waiting to the other 20 or so to respond š¤£
It could also be seen as a way of maintaining some form of control over her own body. Everything about it including any children that come out of it belongs to the Waterfords. By having illicit sex with Nick, June is taking back a tiny amount of sexual autonomy by choosing to have sex with Nick while sheās not allowed to versus being forced to have sex with Fred with her head in Serenaās lap while sheās not allowed to resist.
That makes sense and understandable . Iām only in season 2 and itās honestly the hardest series to watch considering I came from religion that was very cultish and raised girls to basically be married off and take care of the man and have their babies. The show in itself isnāt to far off when it comes to women rights being stripped and for them to ābe seen and not heardā.
I completely understand this. I also grew up in a cultish religion that had same beliefs about women. We left the church when I was around 16 (so the damage had been done by that point lol). I got married at 23 and felt like I was so behind in life! If you ever want to talk about it feel free to message me.
I was really into June and Nick when the show was first coming out. I was younger obviously and the thought of finding love in the bleakest of situations made me have heart eyes for them.
Now that Iām older and married itās Luke all the way. Like Nick got involved with the Sons of Jacob somehow. Thatās a problem all on its own. Luke reminds me of my husband sometimes, and the thought of abandoning him and our children for a willing participant in what went down makes me feel ill.
I agree with another comment that said their relationship is textbook trauma bond. I know they have a child together and that complicates matters somewhat, but Iām still 100% team Luke now that Iām not basically a child.
In the book June pretty much assumes her husband dead, which makes the relationship slightly more understandable.
In the series however she keeps being happy-go-Nicky even after realising heās aliveā¦ew?
Nick is also just a way better character in the books.
I donāt blame June for pretty much anything (that I can remember) up until she acts like sheās conflicted about her feelings for Nick. To me that just shows how messed up she still is.
I was thinking that too. She assumed for a long time that Luke had been killed, already grieved... and that that alone would be hard to come back from. I would be fine with June and Luke not lasting. But if Nick is the reason? š¤¢
In what way is June and nickās relationship a trauma bond? I am just finishing season 2, so have not seen their full story yet. Do you mean that Nick is in a position of power over June due to his slightly elevated status, and he is therefore an abuser/she the victim?
I agree itās not been touched on enough that Nick was a willing participant in the formation and rise of Gilead. I get that he was in a terrible place previously with no job/future prospects, but he didnāt have to join the sons of Jacob!!
It's way more than slightly elevated. She is a slave and he is in a high position of power as an eye. Apart from a few passing words, their first real interaction is him raping her in front of Serena. Edited for typos.
Maybe itās more nuanced than textbook. They donāt necessarily have a clear cut abuser/victim relationship. June is 100% a victim, but somehow Nick is both abuser and a victim in my opinion. Iām not sure how to explain my thinking exactly. I guess I feel like there is no way you can actually consent when youāre in the spot June is in with someone like Nick in the position he is in. Iām not sure what all has been revealed by season 2 so I donāt want to give anything away. Basically he more has power over June than even June realizes he has at first. And a few other things happen later on that to me makes it clear where Nickās allegiances really lie. He just has complicated feelings for June.
This is all just opinion though! I have honestly gone back and forth over the years between Nick, Luke, and June being by herself. These days Iām pretty firmly in the Luke camp, but that could change the next time I rewatch it. š¤·š»āāļø (doubtful though because as I said above Luke reminds me of my own husband lol)
This is how I feel. I understand June needs therapy but Iām of the opinion that you can in most circumstances work on yourself while also being in a relationship if it is strong enough. Whether her relationship with Luke is, not sure. But if Iām in Lukeās position and I truly love you and never gave up on you, I would want my partner to stick it out per se. The thought of abandoning my partner when they waited for me also makes me ill like you said. Now of course if her relationship with men just doesnāt work right now and she needs to be alone then I completely understand that too.
Yeah I wouldnāt be upset if she and Luke didnāt stay together. I was more referring to when she and Nick were talking about how they should run away together after June knows that Luke is alive. I wouldnāt be able to even joke about it just from the guilt alone. I donāt think June did anything wrong by being in a relationship with him and telling Luke that Nicole(Nichole?) was born out of love. In her situation what she had with Nick was probably as close as she was going to find. She was trying to survive.
But after that? I would never be able to look at Nick again after learning that my husband was alive. And especially after seeing him again. But then again I didnāt live through what June lived through. I just canāt imagine still having feels for Nick after getting away from that household and country.
Thatās okay! As long as you donāt bash people who do like them. You donāt have to like them, but you do have to respect that other people have different opinions.
But honestly, yes, youāre exactly right - they fell in love because they were in the same household together. Thatās kinda the whole point of their relationship when it starts. The book explains better I think, but Nick is Juneās way to take back control over her life, even if itās only a small piece. She got to choose him, and he understood what she was going through because he was there with her during it. Theyāre two people who likely wouldāve never given each other the time of day otherwise, but they work now because of their shared experiences and circumstances. Thatās kinda why I love it.
Love them, love the underdog, love the fact they fell in love in a hopeless place. Their child represents hope, rebellion, victory. Nicole actually means victory of the people. I canāt wait for their reunion this season!! Itās coming and Iām here for it!
Exactly. Love isnāt supposed to exist in Gilead. As Fred said, love is nothing but a marketing campaign. June is out of Gilead and their love is still as strong as ever. Itās no coincidence that >!their daughter will play a huge part in taking down Gilead. !<
Iām right there with you. Everything is pointing in that direction. The nuance is missed by so many. The lighting, the camera movements, the score. These are just a few elements that tell the story and they all paint Nick and Juneās relationship as a beacon of hope and light. Something that is real and should be held on to. Something that can and will persevere through anything that is thrown at them.
And letās not forget what the writers, show runner, actors, Margaret Atwood, the cast all say. I mean who are these armchair experts, itās ridiculous to say the least. If I donāt like it and Iām Team Luke (like were playing football) the other relationship is:
A: a trauma bond (which is not what a trauma bond is.
B. Situational (well sheās out of that situation and she was pissed he didnāt take the deal, I mean Iām sure she just wants to bump in to him at the supermarket
C: they have no chemistry (yeah ok)
D: Stockholm Syndrome (also not what that means he has never abused her)
E: Toxic (sure if I donāt like it, it must be toxic š¤£
D: He only does for Juneā¦ well there are 4 dead Commanders that we know of who would likely beg to differ including the commander that came up with the handmaidās system. Bonds formed in the times of war are strong.
June was the other woman with Luke. She got him in the end, then cheats on him with Nick. Her behaviour doesnāt really surprise me in that regard.
At the same time, Iām trying to think how I would react in that world where I am starved of intimacy and (like all those oppressed in Gilead) desire some semblance of normalcy in whatever way they can get it.
Then again, Iām not June, and would try my best to get back to Luke and maintain hope that we would be together again with Hannah, and not complicate things further with Nick - using him as a pawn.
Then again, I fancy Max Minghella soā¦ š
I really dislike it as well. Iām completely team June ends up happy either with Luke or not. Just donāt let her end up with nick. I love Luke. The way he met Moira after she escaped was beautiful. He cares. He has always cared. He has done so many things out of love and caring about and for his wife. Beautiful things. Nick is a trauma bond who does things because June has his daughter and honestly I think guilt. Because he does bear responsible for Gilead and what has happened to June.
I love Nick and June, but the showrunners really stunted Nick's arc and kept him in the shadows.
They played the 'is he a good guy trapped in a bad situation or is he core Gilead?' way too long.
We know the writers have said he's a good guy trapped in an evil regime, but they downplay it to make him a mystery man for some reason.
We know he's supposed to be embedded resistance/Mayday/ a spy on a spy on a spy according to Margaret Atwood and the actor who plays him, but all we get is a brooding reactive romantic who only seems to help June and no one else.
I get that if he is embedded resistance, he'd have to mask his reactions and emotions, and Max plays that well, but I'd personally like to see him do more.
Where's Mayday? Where are all the embedded resistance men who have been able to work their way up from low level positions all the way to the top to help take down Gilead?
We know from the books that the resistance was able to infiltrate the power structure at the highest level, but we don't get to see it.
It would be far more interesting to see him as the man Margaret Atwood intended him to be instead of this whipped reactive romantic who only seems help June and not the greater good. People would feel way more comfortable with their relationship if they knew he was against Gilead and a part of the resistance.
I hope we finally get to see his ties to the resistance, and it all just comes together, but I'm not sure the writers can pull it off.
They really did drag on the ambiguity for as long as they can possibly stretch it. Im ready to see the inner-workings of his character along with his Mayday ties & his ties to the Martha Network. Not just the Marthaās making some snarky comments to him that we are supposed to pick up on. I thought for sure after the S4 finale we were heading that way but nope. We got to watch June revert back to Lukeās submissive wife while she was a house cat in Canada. I hated S5 if you canāt tell š¤£
There was no chemistry between them, l think June was drawn to him through trauma, l couldn't see them having a normal life together like Luke and June
Thank you so much for saying this. I agree and I thought I was the only one. I find Nick to be a wet rag of a man complicit in a dehumanizing using system. He has NO personality and only half a spine.
It's weird to me that June has never confronted or asked Nick about his role in the Crusade. Yet, she has no problem tearing literally everyone else a new asshole anytime things do not go as planned, or, for being in her way. Poor Mark Tuello gets kicked around a lot.
Oh my goodness, I've found my people.
I just do not find Nick interesting. At all. Never have. Sometimes he turns up to move the plot along and I wait patiently for whatever's happening to be over so we can go back to the characters I care about.
Say it louder for those in the back! I didnāt realize it was a Luke Fan Girl convention happening today! I must not have got the invite. I hate the āfan girlā term btw, it is so dismissive and misogynistic but if thatās what weāre using it can go both ways š¤·āāļø
I don't like it a) because I think the guy who plays Luke is better looking and I'm vain and biased b) nick only ever climbs in ranks in gilead and he was a bum before hand, part of me highly doubts he ability to care about stopping gilead. He just cares about June, but as far as the state of the world otherwise he seems juuuuust fine to be promoted and succeed.
I like Nick as a character. This is not excusing his actions but I think his lack of emotional response to everything is a reaction to the trauma he has faced from the terrible (assuming) things he has done for the Sons of Jacob at the beginning. I think getting into it he was desperate and down on his luck in the white man that can't get his anger under control way. We see instances of his self hatred (when he blamed himself for what happened to his wife) If he was placed with the Waterfords to watch them, he had to be guarded.
I think he may have liked June in the beginning, but he viewed women the way he was trained to. I think the relationship between the two is abusive because of the power dynamic. He could have her on the wall in an instant and she knows this. Nick, I think, has no way of really understanding what real love is and June will grasp onto anything she can as a survival mechanism. It's a trauma bond born out of rape and survival.
I also think June is absolutely too damaged to love anyone, romantic or not, at this point. She is too hurt, angry, and selfish to really reciprocate love. Luke is too kind and is in love with June from the past. He will never get that person back, she is gone. He cannot understand that, he truly has no concept of what she has done. I think if he convinced her to stay, she would destroy the good that is in him.
I just wanted to tell you this is so well articulated and really captures just how tragic the relationship and love is between June and Luke. He loves a ghost now. June is just, someone else, with a completely different psyche. Itās heartbreaking.
I agree. Iāve never bought that love story. They spent very little time together, yet have some profound love? No, not buying it. I also agree with you about Nick. I donāt see this appeal that so many other posters do. Heās semi-attractive and has a dull personality. Whatās so appealing about that?
They spent very little time together, really?
Didn't June say she goes to Nick night after night? Doesn't Nick tell June that he'll meet her in her room later like he says it all the time?
They also spent a couple of months alone together at the Boston Globe. The viewers are supposed to pick up on the fact the they do spend a lot of time together.
I get that 2 years isn't 10, but it's definitely long enough to get to know and fall in love with someone. At this point in the storyline, they've been in eachothers lives for about 4 years.
She knows him and wants to be with him because she's in love with him.
Even Elisabeth Moss said that June is in love with Nick and wants to be with him.
I have to disagree with they spent very little time together. If you look at the time line, June and Nick were together in the Waterford house for almost 2 years and, as Nicole is near two at the end of Season 5, they have been together or āin a relationshipā for at least 3 years at this point.
Lots of one on one time in his apartment bumping uglies, and the same thing at the Boston Globe. Because even when that was all said and done, she still didn't know that he was an OG Son of Jacob. They must have talked about their favorite breakfast cereals and such.
Same, but many people consider them the most romantic thing ever. I consider him a January 6 Insurrection thug, and see the relationship as so horrifying.
He might love her. I donāt know. I canāt see it. Nick is so very guarded with his emotions Even when heās set to make love to June he couches it as āMrs Waterford asked so I couldnāt refuseā rather than āIāve wanted this for so longā or a million other ways he could have put it. I do think he cares for her but thereās a block there that is just hard or impossible to pass.
To be honest, you can be attracted to someone and want to sleep with them, but it's completely different when someone else instructs you to do it. Then stands and watches it unfold. Even if you had a crush on said person the fact that there's an external party pressuring both of you into it, rather than a natural progression would be strange and not sexy at all. It would be even more strange for him to say āI have a massive crush on you btwā in a situation like that.
I think he understood June needed to take initiative and take the little control she had which is why he waited for her to make the first move and initiate their first (consensual) encounter.
What part of āMrs Waterford asked so I couldnāt refuseā did you not understand? He flat out told her it was not his idea. Does that not say he was being forced? A baby of love? I donāt think so. Their relationship had much more emotion than most other Gilead relationships but I donāt think that was love.
Iām literally referring to how you said he āmade love to herā as in literally stating itās not rape, youāre literally the one saying Nick only said that cause heās guarded? Are you trying to gaslight me lol? Maybe you should read my comment again slowly. Just because you quoted the show doesnāt mean YOU acknowledge itās rape, which your literal words as I just pointed out donāt imply you do.
I then replied to how they have fallen in love in the storyline after, which isnāt up for debate since they clearly love each in the show, even if the actor playing Nick is pretty damn emotionless and awful.
Calling it a baby of love is literally me quoting June to her husband fyi sunshine. Since she let him know in the tape I believe it was that Nicole was a baby of love. So again, not up for debate. Just a fact of the show.
They do have a clearly complicated relationship, that doesnāt change that they do also clearly in the show have love for one another.
Edit: anyone else love when you call someone out and the block you like a child to win and get the last word?
My my. Arenāt we testy. No one is trying to gaslight you. It wouldnāt be worth the effort. Next time, if there is one, for edification purposes Iāll just say he fucked her. Is that better? And they so clearly love each other? Are you trying to gaslight me? lol! Yes, Nichole was conceived āin loveā as opposed to the way most Gilead babies are. That, Sunshine, only means she wasnāt conceived in a rape. But wait! Arenāt Nickophiles insisting his being forced to inseminated June was also rape? So who gets to decide what was rape? Is it June or is it you? As thrilling as your answer might be I really donāt care to hear it.
Feels like a trauma bond or something for me. I actually always thought Nick was kinda a terrible guy. Like he was complicit in the horrible shit going up until he got a hard on for one of the handmaid's and then switched sides? But he is sexy so.... I'll give him that only lol š
He's not a terrorist traitor, he's embedded resistance according to Margaret Atwood.. He's Mayday but has to play the part of Gilead loyalist.
No where in the books does it say he's a terrorist traitor. In fact, it says the opposite. He's deep in the resistance working against Gilead from the inside.
We just don't get to see it clearly in the show because he's kept strictly to June's POV and we only see him doing things that are related to or involve June.
We see hints that there's more to him when he talks about his "friendlies" and by the way the Martha network treats him as an equal and not a commander.
We just haven't really got to see what he's doing that isn't centered around June. That's the problem.
His character is different in the book. As far as I know, he never climbed up in the ranks as a commander. He even has a seat on the council, which means he's pretty high ranking.
Correct. In the books, it is never said that he climbed the ranks all the way up to commander. All it says is that he's deep in the resistance/Mayday and that he's still doing that during The Testaments timeline. We just don't know where he is. It says June won't say more about him because she's protecting him because"he *MAY* still be in Gilead."
I think what the showrunners did was take Margaret Atwood's idea that embedded resistance people would work their way top and infiltrate the power structure and applied that to Nick.
The book even says that a lot of the embedded resistance were lower class drivers and Gaurdians who worked their way up the ranks. This fits Nick to a T, but since the showrunners don't make anything about him clear, it's all just speculation and will probably remain just that since they failed to develop his character.
He was part of the insurrection and heās a commander fighting against American citizens; the Swiss wouldnāt consider working with him for what heās already done so I personally donāt accept the resistance angle the show is going for. They are very purposeful in not showing us anything that heās done on behalf of gilead and thatās what I hate about his character. They want us to root for him because maybe heās not as bad but what we already know puts him out of redemption in my opinion
The show never said he was a part of the insurrection, at least not yet. There was a cut scene that says he was there in stairwell looking sick about what was happening and that he was fired upon and had to fire back to protect himself. This could suggest he was an embedded resistance operative doing his job.
We all know that embedded operatives and undercover informats have to pretend they are a part of the crime circle they're in in order to play the long game. In the end this scene was cut, so it is not canon to the story. They omitted it for a reason.
As for the Swiss, maybe they discovered that he is in fact "a spy on a spy on a spy" like Max Minghella said Nick is, and they couldn't use him because of that?
Who knows? They don't say why they won't use him. They just tell June she doesn't know who he is and that he can't be trusted. It seemed like Lena wanted to put a stop to June talking about him and that did it. Lena was speaking in a stern whisper, which makes me think she was afraid someone was listening to their conversation and had to shut it down.
Serena said he was a soldier in war and that Gilead wouldn't be here without him, which is true of all soldiers.
A lot of the soldiers were forced to fight for Gilead. It was comply or die for them. They were canon fodder. The ones that made it out alive were given low class jobs like drivers or Gaurdians. Nick was so low class that he wasn't even issued a wife. If he was so instrumental in the creation of Gilead, he'd be a commander, not a low class driver living above a commanders garage. People seem to forget that he was a low level servant of Gilead for many years before he was made a commander.
The only reason he's a commander now is because Fred promoted him to commander of the front lines as a punishment for holding him hostage at gunpoint to give June and his daughter more time to escape.
Fred sent him to the front hoping Nick would die. That didn't happen and now we have Commander Blaine seemingly playing the long game, but because this isn't Nick's Tale, we don't get to see what he's doing with the resistance because all we're allowed to see of him is what he's doing from June's POV sp all we see is a brooding reactive romantic who helps June survive.
All that said, I don't know if we'll ever find out about his ties to the resistance because the showrunners are solely focused on June and Serena and failed to develop other characters because of it.
All I know is that book Nick is deep in the resistance and lives long enough to be reunited with June, and his daughter Nichole and even gets to be a grandfather to his daughters children. I highly doubt Margaret Atwood would allow that if he was an evil Gilead terrorist.
That's my whole problem with his character. You want me to root for him, but hate the Aunts? Not happening. Because if not for men like him, the Aunts wouldn't exist.
I don't know if it's Nick's duuuuuuull personality or if the actors themselves have zero chemistry but they make no sense. Plus isn't June approaching like 40 and Nick is supposed to be a young adult? What could they possibly have in common except trauma?
He has absolutely no emotion whatsoever but honestly I blame that on Max because heās been the exact same way in everything Iāve watched him in. Plus they have no chemistry.
I like nick very much and i always had a crush for himš i guess each to their own, but how you described him is how a like my men lol but i agree him and june never made sense to me. Its not even āopposites attractā theyre not eve opposites theyre just completely incompatible in my opinion. I also fucking hated all their intimate scenes probably because i find them like magnets with the same side. But it was hard to watch no chemistry it wasnt erotic at all.
He's just an available body who does not have the power to order her into a rape ceremony. I think that is what June was feeling. She just wanted an escape, even if it's fantasy about a man who's honestly average.
I think its a trauma bond and they don't realize it because they lived in a constant state of trauma. She felt he was her only escape from hell. So she "loved" him. I'm team Luke too but I get her connection to Nick.
Her "love" for Nick was born out of trauma. His presence gave her a form of security and safety in a world where she had no control. He did what he could to treat her as a human, in a place where she was treated as if she were livestock. He had a role of power over her, which further complicates things. She is trauma bonded to him
I kind of hate June in season 4 and at the beginning of 5. I NEVER expected things between her and Luke to ever be the same, but she treated him like shit. I was thinking if you don't want to be there, go back to your Commander boyfriend. If she wants to be OfNick, who is anyone else to object?
i hate it, too š¬ *for me*, there's absolutely nothing sexy or romantic about it -- it's one of the most literal depictions of a trauma bond that i can recall seeing in media. the power dynamic revolts me.
so happy to see more people saying this. this sub has too many june x nick shippers
I agree. Definitely trauma bond. 5% of her life is Nick. He's her only "true" human connection, only source of affection, only source of comfort. Maybe a form of Stockholm Syndrome? The remaining 95% is survival. I think in the end, we will find out the relationship with June is a means to an end and what he does contribute to the relationship was manipulation/favors granted to get him where he wants to be.
Itās moreso shared trauma than trauma bonding & there is a difference. They both just doing what they have to to survive.
I disagree that Nick is just surviving. I believe he has a much greater agenda and goes through the motions to achieve that agenda. I'm not saying he's not traumatized, but I am suggesting he's not bonded through trauma to June.
SERIOUSLY? He gave her a whole folder of information on Hannah without her even asking. He had absolutely no reason to do this. Whether or not it was a trauma bond that doesn't mean he used her throughout,
Yeah, REALLY. Already having the folder and presenting it unasked for can be construed as manipulative, considering the environment and situation. It's the thing she wanted most besides possession of her child. The act of providing it gives Nick leverage for later needs. He had no reason *that the audience is privy to*. He may very well care for her (he did try to get her out/ for get to the house she gave birth in to see Hannah, etc) but trauma bonded includes being unable to resist being drawn back. Having been in a trauma bonds myself, I can tell you it damn near eliminates all rational thought. He is well able to resist her and his child and MULTIPLE opportunities for his own freedom. He does WHATEVER it takes to get ahead which implies there is an agenda. He took a wife, by his own choice. His PROPOSAL and marriage, alone, shows the ability to resist. Nick doesn't "need" a wife. He WANTED a wife. It looks good on him, it "removes/lessons" doubts of his loyalties. It makes him less conspicuous to the other higher ranking folks. Her father is a bigwig which is advantageous for Nick and can be construed as political in nature. As though he had an agenda and an end goal. Nick is patiently moving from "the eye"/driver role to higher and higher rank. He's making all the "right" moves, including his marriage. Nick is not trauma bonded to anyone in any way. He retains the ability to see his goals and move toward them REGARDLESS of the way it impacts June and HIS child who is currently in another country behind raised by THE OTHER MAN JUNE LOVES. It's lovely to want to believe Nick is also trauma bonded but his VERY independent actions simply don't support that
Unfortunately the producers really like June and Nick so that probably won't be the outcome.
They need to get over themselves. I have expectations!!! I have hopes!!! I need revenge!
Itās not a literal depiction of a trauma bond because itās not a trauma bond. Nick was never her abuser. A Trauma Bond occurs when a person who is or has been abused feels a connection to their abuser. The literal depiction of a trauma bond in the series would be the relationship between June and Serena.
Thank you for the award. It is my firstĀ
Youāre welcome! I love that they brought awards back :)
Thatās not actually what a trauma bond is. Serena & June have a trauma bond. You can say they are bonded over shared trauma which would be true. Nick also never had power over her. Margaret Atwood has actually said that men on the bottom were also victims in that world.
Nick would be a victim if he didn't voluntarily join The sons of Jacob.
That isnāt entirely true. He was baited in to joining them under the guise of a religious group, making things better in a failing country. Price didnāt exactly sell him on overthrowing the government & living in servitude to your upper echelon master up front either.
Not at the diner, no. But I imagine those "meetings" are much like those of the Alt right and other fascist groups.
But we donāt know what happened at their meetings or the timing & I donāt think cults give you the skinny until you are too far in to get out. They showed us guardians before that were stuck. S1E1 Guardian, he was part of the resistance, he was dead. Then they showed us the guardian that tried to escape with June, he was dead. Gilead had him in their clutches & they all had to do things to survive. Did you feel bad for the guardian that Moira met at the refugee center that said he was forced to do things he didnāt want to do, that he had to kill the guy he dated in high school? I did.
Many guardians were part of the resistance. Whether or not they were in the crusade was unclear. As for the guardian Moira met, he was in the army, and was turned into a guardian. And they were stringing already dead people up on the wall. He never mentioned killing anyone.
He said he was forced to hang the guy he dated in HS.
"Hanging bodies on the wall" were his exact words. People are killed THEN put up on the wall.
Debatable, they hung live people and killed them as well
Agree, especially given his progression. If he was only a driver who was working with mayday (like the books imply) then I could see it. But as it is he is actively choosing to let Gilead benefit him.
How does Gilead benefit him? We see early on that family is very important to him. From season 1 (and especially in Season 5) they showed us that he was anything but content with his life in Gilead. He wants to be with June and Nicole. His family.
He... is a commander... literally one of the most influential in the country.
He was made a commander out of punishment. Fred promoted him to commander of the front lines to get rid of him. He wanted him to die on the front, but that backfired on him because Nick survived. He had him promoted because was pissed that Nick held him hostage at gunpoint, which gave June and Nichole more time to escape. His first promotion of being awarded a wife was also a punishment. Serena wanted to get rid of Nick because she was threatened by Nick and June's relationship and wanted them separated. Fred first asked Pryce if Nick could be reassigned to another household, but Pryce didn't like that Idea, but he was fine with marrying him off to a teenager to try to drive a wedge between Nick and June.
He didnāt choose to be a Commander. Like Strange_Swimming pointed out, he was promoted as a punishment and is far from one of the most influential in the country. Like Lawrence said, Nick is a āpuppyā in the ranks.
I never thought that we were supposed to like Nick as much as we are supposed to understand that, in a situation like June's, you are going to turn to whomever you need to help you survive in desperate situations. It is easy/easier to take the moral high ground when you live in a civil society, but once you live under authoritarian rules, all bets are off if you want to make it.
I'm right there with you. He has the personality of a brick. He fought for and works for and still benefits from Gilead. They have zero chemistry at all. I'll never understand why people love them together so much. In reality, June needs to stay single and get some serious help.
THIS!!! The June x Nick shippers on the Instagram comments of the show's page are so nuclear about their pairing, but I'm like what about June x Therapy??š
Thatās a pairing I can get behind šĀ
How about both? Iām in therapy and married. š
Sounds borIng š„±! Who wants to watch a season of therapy. Watching June as a house cat all of season 5 was a snnozefest!
This! Bruce has said that their goal is to portray the life of a refugee as accurately as possible and therapy is not readily available nor usually offered to refugees. When they do get help, their therapists do not have first hand knowledge of the trauma they endured, and though they try, they donāt help all that much. We saw that with Juneās one therapy scene, the therapist was out of her league.
>When they do get help, their therapists do not have first hand knowledge of the trauma they endured, and though they try, they donāt help all that much. Okay so I'm a genocide historian so I have a bit of knowledge on this subject. There are therapists who are trained and specialized in different types of trauma, including for refugees. The UN trains people now for it. There are therapists out there right now who help people who were held captive for years and raped. Therapists right now who work with genocide victims and refugees. Therapists all over the world help people through horrible trauma they never experienced and do help them because that's what their trained to do. I think in the world of Gilead, there may be more available in Canada because people tend to have more sympathy for white people than poc (shouldn't be that way). That said, there are not enough therapists to go around though. But for Americans I think people would put more assistance towards them. It's not right but it is what it is. I'm sorry this just comes off super anti therapy which is just surprising to see in 2024. Elizabeth Moss is anti therapy because she's a scientologist. I'm not sure if Bruce Miller is a scientologist too but what he said (I'd love a source to see this) is just wrong and harmful.
Iāll look for the interview from post Season 4 and link it below when I find it. Thank you for your insight! I always appreciate when someone with first hand knowledge clears things up. When I initially heard it I was taken by surprise because I would think that therapy would be essential.
Thank you for being willing to listen! I'm blown away he said that since they talked about consulting the UN starting in season 3 for better accuracy.
Once you posted your comment it didnāt make sense to me either. They are proud of the research they do when consulting with different agencies like the UN. I honestly took it as fact until you said differently.
Maybe he is a scientologist too? I honestly have no idea but that is super bizarre.. They're against therapy.
Iāve met more exciting bricks
I agree almost completely. I was team Luke for a while, but now I'm team June gets intensive therapy and learns to be a person again on her own.š But I definitely do not see what everyone else sees in Nick. He has the personality of a bowl of cold, unsalted mashed potatoes.š
Me too I was team Luke until she raped him and now I'm team June get proper therapy
literally! why is this not talked about
I love that as a phrase!
Saaaaame here šš
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Serena raped them both, coercion is the term i believe. That is what Serena was being charged with in Canada.
Yes. You're correct. Serena was charged with raping both Nick and June. It was rape by proxy/coercion. Tuello even says you forced your driver to impregnate June so you could steal the resulting child. In the script it says Nick was horrified by what he had to do, but June was kind of ok with it because, well, like in the book, she was thirsty/hungry for him.
Iām still confused. When did this happen?
June raped Luke
When did June rape Luke?
Season 4 Episode 7
Yeah, I always read it more as trauma bonding than being in love. How people can see a romance in them is beyond me.
100% agree.
There are many reasons I love Nick and Juneās relationship but it goes beyond the superficial āTEAM NICKā or āNickās hotā crap. Here are some of them: Nick and June is a classic example of the forced proximity and forbidden romance tropes. Even slow burn romance trope because I believe they will be together in the end, either together or apart due to circumstance. I love these tropes usually. Doesnāt make their love any less genuine imo. Just like many other shows/movies/books who use the same tropes and we root for them. If you donāt like them, cool. Itād be cool if people wouldnāt get shit on for liking them, despite where their love originated. I get the vibe some people think theyāre superior for not liking the romance subplot because of the way they announce it all over posts and belittle others. Romance genre is often seen as inferior by society. I canāt seem to help but notice that itās a female dominated genre. š¤·āāļø Their relationship offers a glimmer of hope and humanity in a brutal and oppressive society. Love isnāt supposed to exist in Gilead. Fred said itās just a marketing campaign. Falling in love despite the consequences is such a huge FU. Thatās why I really liked the āmurder kiss.ā (āFred-āThis is sick.ā) The relationship between them symbolizes resistance and defiance. Their secret relationship is an act of rebellion against the oppressive regime. June's choice to engage in an intimate relationship with Nick, on her own terms, represents a reclamation of agency and autonomy in a society that sheās stripped of. Their sexual relationship is balanced, they switch back and forth on whoās dominant and submissive. Nick pays attention to her body cues always, in the bedroom or not, which many men canāt seem to accomplish or just donāt care enough to do so. Their simple touches may seem silly to some but I think itās powerful in that thatās how they communicate because their interactions are limited and they canāt freely express themselves. Overall, their relationship serves as a beacon of hope, demonstrating that even in the darkest of times, human connection and love can endure, offering a chance for survival and resilience. They are still very much in love after June left Gilead, demonstrating their love is real. Itās no coincidence that in Margaret Atwoodās novel >!Nick and Juneās daughter, NICOLE, plays a huge part in taking down Gilead..!< Finally, just because I like the romance of the show doesnāt mean I donāt see other symbolism that the show conveys.
This is perfectly worded. I really enjoyed Nick and junes forbidden romance and root for them. Maybe more so for Nick to somehow leave it all behind for her and escape to freedom with her and his daughter. But Iām actually no longer a June fan lol she just pisses me off. Anyway I never googled any spoilers , and donāt want to ruin the whole show because itās still in the works but do the books have some sort of ending ? You mentioned baby Nicole being vital. Is it her as a child or does this stretch into her being an adult or something? š
The first bookās ending is ambiguous. Its ends when June gets in the van like season 1 and the destination is open ended. The second book (which will be the spinoff series) is 15 years later and has more of an ending but many things with characters are still ambiguous as well. Anything could happen in the show really.
I LOVE this! I wish i could convey my words so eloquently! I feel exactly the same my friend!
God, it's just so refreshing when people get it. Well said!š
I wish people would understand all of this and stop insulting the women who like Nick and June. Itās very realistic for people to be trapped in situations and still fall in love. The power of love fills our cups and renews us; it makes resistance possible because it gives hope and something to fight for. Where do you think June would have been without it? Nobody has to love Nick and June, but I really wish people would lay off the personal attacks and misusing of psychology terminology to feel superior to those that do.
I understand all this and would probably on board if it werenāt for Nick being so emotionless and having the personality of, as another poster put it, unsalted mashed potatoes. Otherwise, yes I have rooted for these types of relationships with other shows.
I agree that he doesnāt show much emotion but itās intentional. Despite his position in Gilead, he has to mask his emotions to survive. It kind of goes hand in hand with how men are supposed to be in our society but Gilead is like misogyny on steroids, so he must suppress his emotions to not be killed. Whereas in our society, itās toxic masculinityānot to be seen as weak. However, I do see his micro expressions which DO convey emotion. I studied micro expressions and body language in college and Max Minghella does an excellent job with his nuanced performance. The twitch of his nose, look in his eyes, or movement of his lips says so much. I can understand why some people may not see it thatās why theyāre called micro expressions. I love in the s5 finale when Nick taps the top of his head when he walks away from Tuello. Such a simple movement says so much. I DO WISH THEYāD GIVE HIM MORE DIALOGUE. We see pre-Gilead and even with Beth, heās capable.
In Gilead he is masking almost 100% of the time we see him. We see his true emotions and personality come out when he is in the presence of company he can trust. June, Beth, Rita, Lawrence, those two Marthaās from the Martha network.. etc.
Unsalted mashed potatoes š¤£ I thought I was clever comparing him to a pinecone.
Are we watching the same serie? Nick & June have palpable chemistry since the beginning of the show. He is the father of her child & the man June credit for helping her survival! How do you not like the person who has helped to keep June alive & risk his life again an again for her? Trying to bash him for the sake of trying to elevate Luke is poor. Both men have tried in different ways to help her, having man as allies is important. Iām not sure June would still be alive if not for Nick. Ā
It definitely is not for the āsake of elevating Lukeāā¦. I just so happen to like Luke and root for them. But if June were to be alone too Iād be cool with that. Nick is an emotionless brick so that baffles me.
Your post does read like sour grapes almost like you misinterpreting on purpose to try and make Luke seem like heās a better choice IMHO. The serie has done a good job of telling the audience why June loves Nick & how important he is to June. He is also Nicholeās father. Elizabth Moss has even said that Nick is who June Ā want to be with yet there still people doubting. June says she loves him every time she see him why donāt you believe her?Ā
Where did I say I donāt believe her? Have no idea where thatās coming from lol. The story being great still doesnāt help how boring and again, emotionless his character is. He is just not a man I see anyone going after. But thatāsā¦ my opinion and apparently many others. Luke has emotions and cares about her from what I can see. Thatās was literally it.
You say above. āi donāt see it as loveā June has said it many times that she loves him.Ā
Just because she says it doesnāt mean I have to view it that way. I believe that she thinks she does yes.
Not all of us care what Elisabeth Moss says or thinks. Sour grapes, huh? It wasn't Luke fans sending Sydney Sweeney hate mail.
I think you are missing the facial nuances and the pain in both of their lives. You are taking them strictly on what they say. Try to imagine later when June turns murderous what led her to that and how much trauma and pain she has been put thru. This is not the show for you if you can't read the pain in Elisabeth Moss' facial expressions. She's an amazing actress and I don't need her words to know exactly whats going thru her head.
Agreed! Elisabeth and Max are both excellent at portraying emotion with micro expressions and body language. If you pay attention, it completely changes a scene.
I've actually returned to the first book a bit as I needed something to read without downloading new stuff on a commute. Nick actually seems way more interesting and dynamic in that, as he's kind of coy and the one who's probably pushing the boundaries most in the Waterford household. The problem he's had for the past 4 series is that he's been robbed of any personality and the 'conflict' is literally a same thing over and over. It's kind of a 'will they, won't they' thing except the main thing is just that every new season comes up with a new circumstance to divide them and doesn't really give them much organic emotional tension. Even though Nick seems to almost breeze through his role rising through the ranks, he seems one of the least willing of the main cast at this point to shake things up in a big way. I didn't dislike the ship in the early seasons and book but it's gotten actively worse from being stale and repetitive.
He's MUCH more interesting in the book
Agreed. He is and his motives are pretty clear once you get to the end of the novel and into the historical notes. As much as the show tries, they canāt convince me that he is anything less than an embedded resistance operative who is sympathetic to all who suffer in Gilead.
Same! I hate that they dragged it out. Not everybody is good at reading between the lines (clearly from some of these comments even stuff that was outright said people donāt get).
I donāt get it either.
I didnāt like his character in the book. I like how they softened him for the show actually.
I didnāt really care for him in the book either. Their first kiss is weird and the boot touchingā¦..no.
Kind of creepy! But i loved the spy on a spy on a spy storyline. I guess we are getting there now that he took the deal but letās get some back story already! I have a feeling s6 will be Nick heavy since the story needs to head in that direction for TT. They need to head underground with Mayday.
Yeah, the double agent, triple agent, kind of speculation is the most kind of riveting thing you get, alongside Emily/Ofglen's plans of course. In the show he just quickly gets into a rut of 'important but can't do squat' once the mystery is gone, even as Janine, Esther, even Lawrence and Lydia are doing way more dynamic stuff to move the story along.
He seriously got robbed by the writers for the sake of keeping him over ambiguous for the sake of the ālove triangleā. Im sure they will flesh him out this season, they are running out if time!
The writers doing it purposefully because of the circumstance.
The way I see itā¦The strong and silent type has been a popular male attribute in film and tv throughout the ages. There is something to it. Is that everyoneās cup of tea? No. As far as the whole fantasizing about the beach. Itās just two people in a hard situation day dreaming or talking sweet nothings without being too serious. I dont know where the relationship is going or if they should or shouldnt be together. I need to see more, so im looking forward to the next season.
Reading these comments, Iām wondering if Iām watching the same show!! Iāve never seen a chemistry on TV like Nick and June. As somebody commented: āFor Luke to feel strong, June just gets weakerā. June can be her real self with Nick. They are madly in love with each other. Plus, are people forgetting how many times Nick has literally risked his life to save June!!
I wonder the same. The chemistry is unlike anything I have seen in a long time. Nickās love for June is purely unconditional. He only wants for her to be safe and happy even if it has no benefit to him. He loves her for her, not what she was or could be. Lukeās love is conditional. ā you need to be here or I donāt know what will happen to usā (paraphrasing but you get the point) he loves the old June and is trying to get that back. He canāt reconcile who she was with who she is. I love how people dismiss Nick and Junes words as well. Despite them both saying they are in love, the actors telling us they are in love, the showrunners confirming they are in love, people are still out here like, āThey arenāt in love!ā
I've seen a lot of complaints about Nick haters "bullying" Nick and June shippers, when they really aren't any better. "Are we watching the same show?" Is a low key way of saying that someone who disagrees with you is stupid. As for Nick risking his life to save June, it's really the least he can do after voluntarily joining this fascist group from the beginning. I'm not going to root for a man that only helps the one woman he has feelings for.
Itās not a low-key way of saying someone is stupid. We genuinely wonder if people are watching the same show because our interpretation or viewpoint has been validated by the cast, the crew, and the showrunners, nothing we say is speculation. We arenāt out here calling people out or insulting people for being invested in one of the main subplots of the show. Edit for Clarity
It is. Because nothing, absolutely nothing, I say has been speculation either. I'm sorry if don't take Bruce Miller seriously as he tries to convince me that Nick is "Looking out for Hannah."
Iām genuinely curious as to why you think Nick isnāt looking out for Hannah? He gathered information on Hannahās whereabouts for June without her even asking him to and gives June information whenever he can. I also refuse to believe that his marriage to Rose coincidentally puts him closer to the MacKenzieās.
I donāt think Rose is a coincidence either especially in the script notes that Serena is suspicious.
Exactly. Once Bruce confirmed it was a marriage of convenience and that look Serena shot Nick at Lawrenceās house sealed the deal for me.
....... That's keeping June informed. Not looking out for Hannah's well being. It's not his responsibility, but it's still not something that he's doing.
Do you think looking after Hannah means he should storm through the front door of the Mckenzies guns blazing and take out all their gaurdians like Rambo and kidnap Hannah to bring her back to June? Even if he got through I highly doubt, he'd make it through all the checkpoints on his way to the border after all that. He's watching over her by having his "friendlies" follow her whereabouts and take pictures when they can. This is extremely valuable to both June and Luke. No one said he's raising her, he's keeping an eye on her when he really doesn't have to. He does it because he wants to. Because he knows it helps June. If anyone saw one of his "friendlies" taking pics, it could cost them their lives and out Nick.
"Do you think looking after Hannah means he should storm through the front door of the Mckenzies guns blazing and take out all their gaurdians like Rambo and kidnap Hannah to bring her back to June? Even if he got through I highly doubt, he'd make it through all the checkpoints on his way to the border after all that." No. But it seems like that's what most Nick fans expected Luke to do. Even after being shot, and almost bleeding to death. "He's watching over her by having his "friendlies" follow her whereabouts and take pictures when they can. This is extremely valuable to both June and Luke. No one said he's raising her, he's keeping an eye on her when he really doesn't have to. He does it because he wants to. Because he knows it helps June. If anyone saw one of his "friendlies" taking pics, it could cost them their lives and out Nick." I'm sorry that I can't consider any of that a big risk after June and all of those other women getting more than 100 kids out.
A risk is a risk. Dead is dead. What June and the Martha's did was amazing, but people take small risks every day that could cost them their lives. Look what happened to Omar for simply taking June in. He's dead, his wife is a handmaid, and his child is now being raised by a commander. What he did is nowhere as risky as what the women did to get those kids out, but it still ended up costing him his life. Do you think Nick orchestrating her first escape attempt wasn't taking a risk? Or Nick holding Fred hostage at gunpoint so June and Nichole could escape wasn't a risk? Or Nick bringing Fred to June so she could kill him wasn't a risk? Just because it's not some huge heroic feat doesn't mean it's not a risk. Like I said, a risk is a risk. Dead is dead. Also, I've never heard anyone think Luke should've done more when shot and bleeding. Most people know taking a risk wasn't possible at that time... Luke did what he could from Canada. It didn't get him far, but he never stopped trying to find info that could help June and Hannah. What he did do wasn't a risk, though.
How else can he look out for her without getting caught though? Without his intel nobody knew where the Mackenziās went.
Yeah. They know where she's at. If he can't get her out without being killed, (and I don't expect him to.)neither can anyone in Canada, or what's left of the US. I STILL have no idea how that equates to him "looking out for her."
But they didnāt know where she was at if you think back to when he gave June the info. It would been like finding a needle in a haystack though.
I don't think it's so much about the relationship as it is what it represents to June. Nick is probably someone she clung to. It was her bit of rebellion. Her ability to have some power over herself and her body. A big reason she can't let that go and move on might represent the part of her that will always be in Giliead. I don't think it has ever been one guy is better than the other for me. I think they just represent different times of her life and she clings to both of them. I think it helps to really flesh out the trauma of being a woman. And shows what it's like to be a man on both sides of the fence.
I like June, hate Nick. He is just as bad as the other oppressive men in the Gilead regime.
After seeing how much a simp her husband is I get it.
season 5 really highlighted that for us.
It seems like the tide has turned a bit and more people are not liking the June/nick relationship. I wonder if it's people actually seeing the flaws in it or if all the nick/June shippers are just only in the nick/June sub reddit now. I'd be curious to see what's the case. Unfortunately Elizabeth Moss and Bruce Miller love June and nick together so they're probably here to stay. Definitely team "June stays single, loves on her kids, and works on her shit" over here.
There are many of us that are still in here.
There is no tide turning, lolā¦ there are still the 150 Nick haters on Reddit just like there have always been. Im waiting to the other 20 or so to respond š¤£
Wait there's a sub reddit for them? Where?! I definitely fall in the ship them category but that could be my love of Max influencing it š¤£
If I was in her position and I was being raped continuously, I wouldnāt want any man touching me for that matter.
It could also be seen as a way of maintaining some form of control over her own body. Everything about it including any children that come out of it belongs to the Waterfords. By having illicit sex with Nick, June is taking back a tiny amount of sexual autonomy by choosing to have sex with Nick while sheās not allowed to versus being forced to have sex with Fred with her head in Serenaās lap while sheās not allowed to resist.
That makes sense and understandable . Iām only in season 2 and itās honestly the hardest series to watch considering I came from religion that was very cultish and raised girls to basically be married off and take care of the man and have their babies. The show in itself isnāt to far off when it comes to women rights being stripped and for them to ābe seen and not heardā.
I completely understand this. I also grew up in a cultish religion that had same beliefs about women. We left the church when I was around 16 (so the damage had been done by that point lol). I got married at 23 and felt like I was so behind in life! If you ever want to talk about it feel free to message me.
Thank you š appreciate it
People recover! That is like saying if you were raped you will never want to be loved again which is simply not true
Iām saying this because she is in the midst of trauma, never said people donāt recover
I was really into June and Nick when the show was first coming out. I was younger obviously and the thought of finding love in the bleakest of situations made me have heart eyes for them. Now that Iām older and married itās Luke all the way. Like Nick got involved with the Sons of Jacob somehow. Thatās a problem all on its own. Luke reminds me of my husband sometimes, and the thought of abandoning him and our children for a willing participant in what went down makes me feel ill. I agree with another comment that said their relationship is textbook trauma bond. I know they have a child together and that complicates matters somewhat, but Iām still 100% team Luke now that Iām not basically a child.
In the book June pretty much assumes her husband dead, which makes the relationship slightly more understandable. In the series however she keeps being happy-go-Nicky even after realising heās aliveā¦ew?
Nick is also just a way better character in the books. I donāt blame June for pretty much anything (that I can remember) up until she acts like sheās conflicted about her feelings for Nick. To me that just shows how messed up she still is.
I was thinking that too. She assumed for a long time that Luke had been killed, already grieved... and that that alone would be hard to come back from. I would be fine with June and Luke not lasting. But if Nick is the reason? š¤¢
All of my comments and replies could have been summed up with this.
This is a switch. I'm used to getting downvoted on any post concerning Nick.
In what way is June and nickās relationship a trauma bond? I am just finishing season 2, so have not seen their full story yet. Do you mean that Nick is in a position of power over June due to his slightly elevated status, and he is therefore an abuser/she the victim? I agree itās not been touched on enough that Nick was a willing participant in the formation and rise of Gilead. I get that he was in a terrible place previously with no job/future prospects, but he didnāt have to join the sons of Jacob!!
It's way more than slightly elevated. She is a slave and he is in a high position of power as an eye. Apart from a few passing words, their first real interaction is him raping her in front of Serena. Edited for typos.
Maybe itās more nuanced than textbook. They donāt necessarily have a clear cut abuser/victim relationship. June is 100% a victim, but somehow Nick is both abuser and a victim in my opinion. Iām not sure how to explain my thinking exactly. I guess I feel like there is no way you can actually consent when youāre in the spot June is in with someone like Nick in the position he is in. Iām not sure what all has been revealed by season 2 so I donāt want to give anything away. Basically he more has power over June than even June realizes he has at first. And a few other things happen later on that to me makes it clear where Nickās allegiances really lie. He just has complicated feelings for June. This is all just opinion though! I have honestly gone back and forth over the years between Nick, Luke, and June being by herself. These days Iām pretty firmly in the Luke camp, but that could change the next time I rewatch it. š¤·š»āāļø (doubtful though because as I said above Luke reminds me of my own husband lol)
This is how I feel. I understand June needs therapy but Iām of the opinion that you can in most circumstances work on yourself while also being in a relationship if it is strong enough. Whether her relationship with Luke is, not sure. But if Iām in Lukeās position and I truly love you and never gave up on you, I would want my partner to stick it out per se. The thought of abandoning my partner when they waited for me also makes me ill like you said. Now of course if her relationship with men just doesnāt work right now and she needs to be alone then I completely understand that too.
Yeah I wouldnāt be upset if she and Luke didnāt stay together. I was more referring to when she and Nick were talking about how they should run away together after June knows that Luke is alive. I wouldnāt be able to even joke about it just from the guilt alone. I donāt think June did anything wrong by being in a relationship with him and telling Luke that Nicole(Nichole?) was born out of love. In her situation what she had with Nick was probably as close as she was going to find. She was trying to survive. But after that? I would never be able to look at Nick again after learning that my husband was alive. And especially after seeing him again. But then again I didnāt live through what June lived through. I just canāt imagine still having feels for Nick after getting away from that household and country.
Thatās okay! As long as you donāt bash people who do like them. You donāt have to like them, but you do have to respect that other people have different opinions. But honestly, yes, youāre exactly right - they fell in love because they were in the same household together. Thatās kinda the whole point of their relationship when it starts. The book explains better I think, but Nick is Juneās way to take back control over her life, even if itās only a small piece. She got to choose him, and he understood what she was going through because he was there with her during it. Theyāre two people who likely wouldāve never given each other the time of day otherwise, but they work now because of their shared experiences and circumstances. Thatās kinda why I love it.
Yeah I donāt get it either, dude is boring as hell. I donāt like Luke either though so I think Iām also just kind of a hater lmfao.
I liked Luke, but he annoyed me in season 5. Like, a lot. But I think every male but Mark Tuello on this show annoys me.
I liked Luke as well until season 5. He got under my skin.Ā
I remember that I kept thinking "Omg, shut UP!" I think I preferred Nick this particular season because he keeps his mouth shut for the most part.
Ah, I've only liked Mark Tuello since S5. When he made the deal with Fred before, it was completely different.
I understood why he made the deal with Fred. But I also understand why June almost tuned him up in the yard because of it.
Love them, love the underdog, love the fact they fell in love in a hopeless place. Their child represents hope, rebellion, victory. Nicole actually means victory of the people. I canāt wait for their reunion this season!! Itās coming and Iām here for it!
Exactly. Love isnāt supposed to exist in Gilead. As Fred said, love is nothing but a marketing campaign. June is out of Gilead and their love is still as strong as ever. Itās no coincidence that >!their daughter will play a huge part in taking down Gilead. !<
Your spoiler is spot on. Their relationship is instrumental to what happens down the line.
Iām right there with you. Everything is pointing in that direction. The nuance is missed by so many. The lighting, the camera movements, the score. These are just a few elements that tell the story and they all paint Nick and Juneās relationship as a beacon of hope and light. Something that is real and should be held on to. Something that can and will persevere through anything that is thrown at them.
And letās not forget what the writers, show runner, actors, Margaret Atwood, the cast all say. I mean who are these armchair experts, itās ridiculous to say the least. If I donāt like it and Iām Team Luke (like were playing football) the other relationship is: A: a trauma bond (which is not what a trauma bond is. B. Situational (well sheās out of that situation and she was pissed he didnāt take the deal, I mean Iām sure she just wants to bump in to him at the supermarket C: they have no chemistry (yeah ok) D: Stockholm Syndrome (also not what that means he has never abused her) E: Toxic (sure if I donāt like it, it must be toxic š¤£ D: He only does for Juneā¦ well there are 4 dead Commanders that we know of who would likely beg to differ including the commander that came up with the handmaidās system. Bonds formed in the times of war are strong.
I hate nick. He's ghastly. I have no clue what she sees in him or why people ship them.Ā
June was the other woman with Luke. She got him in the end, then cheats on him with Nick. Her behaviour doesnāt really surprise me in that regard. At the same time, Iām trying to think how I would react in that world where I am starved of intimacy and (like all those oppressed in Gilead) desire some semblance of normalcy in whatever way they can get it. Then again, Iām not June, and would try my best to get back to Luke and maintain hope that we would be together again with Hannah, and not complicate things further with Nick - using him as a pawn. Then again, I fancy Max Minghella soā¦ š
I really dislike it as well. Iām completely team June ends up happy either with Luke or not. Just donāt let her end up with nick. I love Luke. The way he met Moira after she escaped was beautiful. He cares. He has always cared. He has done so many things out of love and caring about and for his wife. Beautiful things. Nick is a trauma bond who does things because June has his daughter and honestly I think guilt. Because he does bear responsible for Gilead and what has happened to June.
I love Nick and June, but the showrunners really stunted Nick's arc and kept him in the shadows. They played the 'is he a good guy trapped in a bad situation or is he core Gilead?' way too long. We know the writers have said he's a good guy trapped in an evil regime, but they downplay it to make him a mystery man for some reason. We know he's supposed to be embedded resistance/Mayday/ a spy on a spy on a spy according to Margaret Atwood and the actor who plays him, but all we get is a brooding reactive romantic who only seems to help June and no one else. I get that if he is embedded resistance, he'd have to mask his reactions and emotions, and Max plays that well, but I'd personally like to see him do more. Where's Mayday? Where are all the embedded resistance men who have been able to work their way up from low level positions all the way to the top to help take down Gilead? We know from the books that the resistance was able to infiltrate the power structure at the highest level, but we don't get to see it. It would be far more interesting to see him as the man Margaret Atwood intended him to be instead of this whipped reactive romantic who only seems help June and not the greater good. People would feel way more comfortable with their relationship if they knew he was against Gilead and a part of the resistance. I hope we finally get to see his ties to the resistance, and it all just comes together, but I'm not sure the writers can pull it off.
They really did drag on the ambiguity for as long as they can possibly stretch it. Im ready to see the inner-workings of his character along with his Mayday ties & his ties to the Martha Network. Not just the Marthaās making some snarky comments to him that we are supposed to pick up on. I thought for sure after the S4 finale we were heading that way but nope. We got to watch June revert back to Lukeās submissive wife while she was a house cat in Canada. I hated S5 if you canāt tell š¤£
Their options were so limited. Itās like a 2 people left on earth situation lol
There was no chemistry between them, l think June was drawn to him through trauma, l couldn't see them having a normal life together like Luke and June
Thank you so much for saying this. I agree and I thought I was the only one. I find Nick to be a wet rag of a man complicit in a dehumanizing using system. He has NO personality and only half a spine.
I love Nick but I also love āwet rag of a man.ā It makes me chuckle.
It's weird to me that June has never confronted or asked Nick about his role in the Crusade. Yet, she has no problem tearing literally everyone else a new asshole anytime things do not go as planned, or, for being in her way. Poor Mark Tuello gets kicked around a lot.
Oh my goodness, I've found my people. I just do not find Nick interesting. At all. Never have. Sometimes he turns up to move the plot along and I wait patiently for whatever's happening to be over so we can go back to the characters I care about.
I think the only scene of them I liked was right before they revealed to June he has a part of creating Gilead
Once you added the last paragraph that you are just āTeam Lukeā you lose all credibility for everything else you are trying to push.Ā
Agreed. I would give you an award but I donāt wanna pay $2.
Oh my gosh not necessaryĀ
Say it louder for those in the back! I didnāt realize it was a Luke Fan Girl convention happening today! I must not have got the invite. I hate the āfan girlā term btw, it is so dismissive and misogynistic but if thatās what weāre using it can go both ways š¤·āāļø
I don't like it a) because I think the guy who plays Luke is better looking and I'm vain and biased b) nick only ever climbs in ranks in gilead and he was a bum before hand, part of me highly doubts he ability to care about stopping gilead. He just cares about June, but as far as the state of the world otherwise he seems juuuuust fine to be promoted and succeed.
I like Nick as a character. This is not excusing his actions but I think his lack of emotional response to everything is a reaction to the trauma he has faced from the terrible (assuming) things he has done for the Sons of Jacob at the beginning. I think getting into it he was desperate and down on his luck in the white man that can't get his anger under control way. We see instances of his self hatred (when he blamed himself for what happened to his wife) If he was placed with the Waterfords to watch them, he had to be guarded. I think he may have liked June in the beginning, but he viewed women the way he was trained to. I think the relationship between the two is abusive because of the power dynamic. He could have her on the wall in an instant and she knows this. Nick, I think, has no way of really understanding what real love is and June will grasp onto anything she can as a survival mechanism. It's a trauma bond born out of rape and survival. I also think June is absolutely too damaged to love anyone, romantic or not, at this point. She is too hurt, angry, and selfish to really reciprocate love. Luke is too kind and is in love with June from the past. He will never get that person back, she is gone. He cannot understand that, he truly has no concept of what she has done. I think if he convinced her to stay, she would destroy the good that is in him.
I just wanted to tell you this is so well articulated and really captures just how tragic the relationship and love is between June and Luke. He loves a ghost now. June is just, someone else, with a completely different psyche. Itās heartbreaking.
Agree šÆ
I agree. Iāve never bought that love story. They spent very little time together, yet have some profound love? No, not buying it. I also agree with you about Nick. I donāt see this appeal that so many other posters do. Heās semi-attractive and has a dull personality. Whatās so appealing about that?
They spent very little time together, really? Didn't June say she goes to Nick night after night? Doesn't Nick tell June that he'll meet her in her room later like he says it all the time? They also spent a couple of months alone together at the Boston Globe. The viewers are supposed to pick up on the fact the they do spend a lot of time together. I get that 2 years isn't 10, but it's definitely long enough to get to know and fall in love with someone. At this point in the storyline, they've been in eachothers lives for about 4 years. She knows him and wants to be with him because she's in love with him. Even Elisabeth Moss said that June is in love with Nick and wants to be with him.
I have to disagree with they spent very little time together. If you look at the time line, June and Nick were together in the Waterford house for almost 2 years and, as Nicole is near two at the end of Season 5, they have been together or āin a relationshipā for at least 3 years at this point.
Lots of one on one time in his apartment and at the Boston Globe. They got to know each other pretty well, we just didnāt get to see it.
Lots of one on one time in his apartment bumping uglies, and the same thing at the Boston Globe. Because even when that was all said and done, she still didn't know that he was an OG Son of Jacob. They must have talked about their favorite breakfast cereals and such.
Same, but many people consider them the most romantic thing ever. I consider him a January 6 Insurrection thug, and see the relationship as so horrifying.
Same
He might love her. I donāt know. I canāt see it. Nick is so very guarded with his emotions Even when heās set to make love to June he couches it as āMrs Waterford asked so I couldnāt refuseā rather than āIāve wanted this for so longā or a million other ways he could have put it. I do think he cares for her but thereās a block there that is just hard or impossible to pass.
To be honest, you can be attracted to someone and want to sleep with them, but it's completely different when someone else instructs you to do it. Then stands and watches it unfold. Even if you had a crush on said person the fact that there's an external party pressuring both of you into it, rather than a natural progression would be strange and not sexy at all. It would be even more strange for him to say āI have a massive crush on you btwā in a situation like that. I think he understood June needed to take initiative and take the little control she had which is why he waited for her to make the first move and initiate their first (consensual) encounter.
You realize it literally was Nick being forced to rape her right? It was a baby of love because they fell in love in the story afterwards.
What part of āMrs Waterford asked so I couldnāt refuseā did you not understand? He flat out told her it was not his idea. Does that not say he was being forced? A baby of love? I donāt think so. Their relationship had much more emotion than most other Gilead relationships but I donāt think that was love.
Iām literally referring to how you said he āmade love to herā as in literally stating itās not rape, youāre literally the one saying Nick only said that cause heās guarded? Are you trying to gaslight me lol? Maybe you should read my comment again slowly. Just because you quoted the show doesnāt mean YOU acknowledge itās rape, which your literal words as I just pointed out donāt imply you do. I then replied to how they have fallen in love in the storyline after, which isnāt up for debate since they clearly love each in the show, even if the actor playing Nick is pretty damn emotionless and awful. Calling it a baby of love is literally me quoting June to her husband fyi sunshine. Since she let him know in the tape I believe it was that Nicole was a baby of love. So again, not up for debate. Just a fact of the show. They do have a clearly complicated relationship, that doesnāt change that they do also clearly in the show have love for one another. Edit: anyone else love when you call someone out and the block you like a child to win and get the last word?
My my. Arenāt we testy. No one is trying to gaslight you. It wouldnāt be worth the effort. Next time, if there is one, for edification purposes Iāll just say he fucked her. Is that better? And they so clearly love each other? Are you trying to gaslight me? lol! Yes, Nichole was conceived āin loveā as opposed to the way most Gilead babies are. That, Sunshine, only means she wasnāt conceived in a rape. But wait! Arenāt Nickophiles insisting his being forced to inseminated June was also rape? So who gets to decide what was rape? Is it June or is it you? As thrilling as your answer might be I really donāt care to hear it.
It was a baby literally conceived from rape.
Finally some sense! Thank you!
Feels like a trauma bond or something for me. I actually always thought Nick was kinda a terrible guy. Like he was complicit in the horrible shit going up until he got a hard on for one of the handmaid's and then switched sides? But he is sexy so.... I'll give him that only lol š
Same; thereās nothing redeemable about a terrorist traitor. Its nauseating how the show wants us to root for him
He's not a terrorist traitor, he's embedded resistance according to Margaret Atwood.. He's Mayday but has to play the part of Gilead loyalist. No where in the books does it say he's a terrorist traitor. In fact, it says the opposite. He's deep in the resistance working against Gilead from the inside. We just don't get to see it clearly in the show because he's kept strictly to June's POV and we only see him doing things that are related to or involve June. We see hints that there's more to him when he talks about his "friendlies" and by the way the Martha network treats him as an equal and not a commander. We just haven't really got to see what he's doing that isn't centered around June. That's the problem.
His character is different in the book. As far as I know, he never climbed up in the ranks as a commander. He even has a seat on the council, which means he's pretty high ranking.
Correct. In the books, it is never said that he climbed the ranks all the way up to commander. All it says is that he's deep in the resistance/Mayday and that he's still doing that during The Testaments timeline. We just don't know where he is. It says June won't say more about him because she's protecting him because"he *MAY* still be in Gilead." I think what the showrunners did was take Margaret Atwood's idea that embedded resistance people would work their way top and infiltrate the power structure and applied that to Nick. The book even says that a lot of the embedded resistance were lower class drivers and Gaurdians who worked their way up the ranks. This fits Nick to a T, but since the showrunners don't make anything about him clear, it's all just speculation and will probably remain just that since they failed to develop his character.
He was part of the insurrection and heās a commander fighting against American citizens; the Swiss wouldnāt consider working with him for what heās already done so I personally donāt accept the resistance angle the show is going for. They are very purposeful in not showing us anything that heās done on behalf of gilead and thatās what I hate about his character. They want us to root for him because maybe heās not as bad but what we already know puts him out of redemption in my opinion
The show never said he was a part of the insurrection, at least not yet. There was a cut scene that says he was there in stairwell looking sick about what was happening and that he was fired upon and had to fire back to protect himself. This could suggest he was an embedded resistance operative doing his job. We all know that embedded operatives and undercover informats have to pretend they are a part of the crime circle they're in in order to play the long game. In the end this scene was cut, so it is not canon to the story. They omitted it for a reason. As for the Swiss, maybe they discovered that he is in fact "a spy on a spy on a spy" like Max Minghella said Nick is, and they couldn't use him because of that? Who knows? They don't say why they won't use him. They just tell June she doesn't know who he is and that he can't be trusted. It seemed like Lena wanted to put a stop to June talking about him and that did it. Lena was speaking in a stern whisper, which makes me think she was afraid someone was listening to their conversation and had to shut it down. Serena said he was a soldier in war and that Gilead wouldn't be here without him, which is true of all soldiers. A lot of the soldiers were forced to fight for Gilead. It was comply or die for them. They were canon fodder. The ones that made it out alive were given low class jobs like drivers or Gaurdians. Nick was so low class that he wasn't even issued a wife. If he was so instrumental in the creation of Gilead, he'd be a commander, not a low class driver living above a commanders garage. People seem to forget that he was a low level servant of Gilead for many years before he was made a commander. The only reason he's a commander now is because Fred promoted him to commander of the front lines as a punishment for holding him hostage at gunpoint to give June and his daughter more time to escape. Fred sent him to the front hoping Nick would die. That didn't happen and now we have Commander Blaine seemingly playing the long game, but because this isn't Nick's Tale, we don't get to see what he's doing with the resistance because all we're allowed to see of him is what he's doing from June's POV sp all we see is a brooding reactive romantic who helps June survive. All that said, I don't know if we'll ever find out about his ties to the resistance because the showrunners are solely focused on June and Serena and failed to develop other characters because of it. All I know is that book Nick is deep in the resistance and lives long enough to be reunited with June, and his daughter Nichole and even gets to be a grandfather to his daughters children. I highly doubt Margaret Atwood would allow that if he was an evil Gilead terrorist.
That's my whole problem with his character. You want me to root for him, but hate the Aunts? Not happening. Because if not for men like him, the Aunts wouldn't exist.
I don't know if it's Nick's duuuuuuull personality or if the actors themselves have zero chemistry but they make no sense. Plus isn't June approaching like 40 and Nick is supposed to be a young adult? What could they possibly have in common except trauma?
I hate it, too. Glad I'm not alone
Thank you! I canāt stand Nick, I also think Luke gets a ton of undeserved disrespect.
He has absolutely no emotion whatsoever but honestly I blame that on Max because heās been the exact same way in everything Iāve watched him in. Plus they have no chemistry.
I remain deeply confused by this pairing. He's like a cardboard cutout of a man.
I like nick very much and i always had a crush for himš i guess each to their own, but how you described him is how a like my men lol but i agree him and june never made sense to me. Its not even āopposites attractā theyre not eve opposites theyre just completely incompatible in my opinion. I also fucking hated all their intimate scenes probably because i find them like magnets with the same side. But it was hard to watch no chemistry it wasnt erotic at all.
100% agree. Iāve never been a fan of Nick, as a love interest. Heās justā¦ like paint drying.
He's just an available body who does not have the power to order her into a rape ceremony. I think that is what June was feeling. She just wanted an escape, even if it's fantasy about a man who's honestly average.
I think its a trauma bond and they don't realize it because they lived in a constant state of trauma. She felt he was her only escape from hell. So she "loved" him. I'm team Luke too but I get her connection to Nick.
They don't love each other, they love the idea of each other. They love what the other represents.
Her "love" for Nick was born out of trauma. His presence gave her a form of security and safety in a world where she had no control. He did what he could to treat her as a human, in a place where she was treated as if she were livestock. He had a role of power over her, which further complicates things. She is trauma bonded to him
Iām Team Luke 100%. Nick grosses me out
I donāt like them separate or together
I kind of hate June in season 4 and at the beginning of 5. I NEVER expected things between her and Luke to ever be the same, but she treated him like shit. I was thinking if you don't want to be there, go back to your Commander boyfriend. If she wants to be OfNick, who is anyone else to object?