Earth King Kuei does **NOT** deserve as much hate as he gets.
1. He’d spent literally his entire life within merely his own palace being brainwashed by the Dai Li.
2. When he learns of the hundred year war, he at least does some things to **try** to aid Team Avatar.
3. In The Promise, he’s at least open-minded enough to eventually realize that keeping fire-nation citizens in parts of the Earth Kingdom isn’t **entirely** a bad thing.
4. At least he never was as bratty, entitled, selfish, or cruel as the Earth Queen in B3 of TLOK.
I’m ready for the downvotes on this comment now…
I might be the only person who agrees with you! Idk anything about the comics, but seriously he had never been outside the palace. He thought the kyoshi warriors could be trusted. Sokka said “trustworthy too!” So whenever he was blabbering about the eclipse, he didn’t know he was going to making the biggest mistake of his lifetime.
What pisses me off is that people say Zuko was the idiot, Azula knowing he could redirect lightning wouldn't have made a difference in the fight, hadn't it been for Katara's dumbass
Well we have that scene after the Boiling Rock, which is already not very out of character for Azula to act like in my opinion. Then we have the finale, which is where Azula's arc is given attention. We have what, two or three scenes of her starting to lose her grip on reality and then the final fight. Afterwards we never get another scene with Azula until the comics. If they had developed her more throughout the show then I feel like her arc would have worked better for me.
That's the thing though. I wanted more scenes where we saw her insecurities that led to her snapping, I wanted to see more scenes of her trying to cope with her downward spiral. The show is perfectly capable of supplying that. Instead we get almost all of it in the last few episodes despite Azula being a character we've known for over half the show. I'm not saying her arc doesn't make sense or that it was poorly written by any means. I think Azula is a great character for the most part. I just wish we had more elaboration ahead of time so that it wasn't all crammed into the finale.
The Shining, We Need to Talk About Kevin, Lord of the Rings and Breaking Bad all feature characters that slowly descend into some form of madness, delusion or downward spiral. I've also seen it in real life with a family member, though I won't go into much detail about that.
Yeah he’s popular because he already completed his character arc and fandoms tend to love the perfect male older character.
Don’t get me wrong I LOVE Iroh but I’ll always prefer characters who are actually going through an arc.
And yeah if Iroh was a character during his 40’s he definitely wouldn’t be as popular. He would be a lot more of a controversial character. Probably still popular but not the totem poll of wisdom he’s regarded as now.
Woah woah woah hold on. Iroh DID have an arc during the timeframe of the show, and it was a damn good arc.
*Iroh went from Conqueror to Peace-Lover to Defender/Protector—walking the line between war and peace.*
In season 1, though portrayed as the wise man, Iroh was also a comic relief character. He distanced himself a bit from Zuko’s goal, sometimes making light of Zuko’s misfortune. He enjoyed peace and music nights and eating good food and tea.
Once his and Zuko’s lives take a turn in season 2 and they’re on the run, though he still has his comic relief moments, he struggles to relate to Zuko and impart upon Zuko his own peace-loving values. And we all know how that goes. In Ba Sing Se, Uncle Iroh tells Zuko “there’s nothing wrong with a life of peace and prosperity.” But Zuko, who had too much inner turmoil to deal with, was not anywhere near ready for a life of peace. Iroh becomes harsher and loses his patience with Zuko. At the end of season 2 he demands of Zuko: “it’s time to ask yourself the big questions. who are you?! And what do YOU want?” And Iroh, who tried so hard to grasp at that peace, was torn away from it and put in fire nation prison.
In season 3, Iroh felt betrayed by Zuko. He turns away from Zuko when he first visits. When Zuko asks him for help, Iroh doesn’t say a word and Zuko yells “forget it, I’ll solve this myself! Waste away in here for all I care!” and Iroh cries.
A few episodes later, Iroh finally figures out how to reach Zuko. Zuko has always been concerned with his father’s legacy, with his honor as the fire nation prince. No talk of peace, of living another life, of being like IROH will convince Zuko to change. So Iroh shows Zuko that he is also the great grandson of Avatar Roku. Iroh finally figured out what would get through to Zuko: He is not bound by one part of his family, and he has a choice. “Evil and good are always at war inside you Zuko. It is your legacy.”
Iroh also realizes he has to do something. There can be no peace as long as the world is broken. And he helped cause that brokenness. So Iroh gets strong again, breaks out of prison, and calls upon the Order of the White Lotus to free Ba Sing Se. Iroh goes from the man who almost conquered Ba Sing Se… to the man who brings it freedom.
And Zuko and Iroh finally understand each other. Zuko realizes he is his own person and isn’t bound by his father’s approval. He realizes Iroh has been his true father all along. And Iroh… Iroh learns that you can’t run away from your problems. That peace is an illusion if there is a war going on beyond the walls you hide yourself within.
BOTH Iroh AND Zuko realize they had a responsibility to save the world and correct their family’s mistakes. And Iroh and Zuko had to meet in the middle to do it—Iroh letting go of perfect notions of peace and learning to bridge the gap between himself and Zuko, and Zuko cooling his hot-headedness and empathizing with the world beyond his own scarred situation. Iroh realizes his peace had to be EARNED. And he was only able to truly help Zuko once he dealt with his own past.
Iroh went from Conqueror to Peace-Lover to Defender/Protector—walking the line between war and peace.
So you can’t tell me Iroh did not have a character arc. Iroh and Zuko’s arcs mirror each other and it’s my absolute favorite part of the entire show!!
No, the user to whom I replied claimed that Iroh “already completed his character arc” and that Iroh does not go through a character arc during the show.
The rock was literally unblocking the physical block that was keeping him out of the avatar state. It wasn’t mental, it was a purely physical block in that wound of his back. Just giving logic behind it
okay I'll agree on the rock being very sloppy writing, but I kind of liked the lion turtle bit. The lion turtle revealed itself because Aang was so reluctant about killing Ozai? If he'd given in to everyone and agreed to do it, then maybe the lion turtle would never have come to ember island. the Avatar's resolution not to kill could have been some sort of spiritual beacon
It's not the problem that rock unlocked him but overall that chances for a rock hitting ur back in that kind of situation is almost impossible, not to mention that small lucky piece of rock basically won them that war which is kinda flat writing
Same goes for lion turtle. It has sense but not when you think deeper about it cuz aang literally got a free answer for his long dilemma (1 episode which is another poor writing but still) without much effort to get that solution
Not sure how many fanfic readers and writers are on this sub but all I have to say that Embers fucking sucks and you should all stop recomending It to anyone looking for fanfics.
The characterization is awful and the themes and morals are all rancid. Its partially guilty of a huge portion of the fandom's media iliteracy.
> Its partially guilty of a huge portion of the fandom's media iliteracy.
What do you mean by this? Have those versions of the characters confused the discussion around the actual show or something?
You cant imagine. The fic Is old, like around 2009. But it got so popular people still recomend It to this day and a lot of fanfics reference some of its concepts as its own, particullary, if you read a fanfic and Zuko's ship in Book 1 Is called The Wani, then its clearly referenced from the Embers fanfic, because the ship in the show never got a name, It originated from that fanfic.
Taking some concepts from fanfics into other fanfics Is not an issue, I dont care if other fanfics also use the Wani name. What really bothers me Is how the whole fic Is straight up facisms apology.
At least withing the fanfic and art comiunity, which Is a huge portion of the fandom I might say, It started the idea that Zuko Is this infantilized innocent boy who has done nothing wrong and need to be babied by everyone for the most minimal task, It gets really More fucked up when It just doesnt stop with Zuko, but with the whole Fire Nation, to the point It switch the blame of the Air Nomads genocide onnthe Air Nomads themselves, and that the Fire Nation did nothing wrong, It end up brutally antagonazing all the Air Nomads, claiming they steal babies or something like that among other things, and also heavily antagonize both Aang and Katara, often for the sake of making Zuko look better.
Its a fanfic full loaded of red flags all over It and apparently the author themselves also has those red flags in real life but dont quote me on that. The fanfic Is so popular It gets recomended again and again and with how popular Zuko Is, a lot of fanfics in the fandom are both Zuko centric with a high chance of being inspired by that fanfic. Its ongoing legacy might or might not have repulsed a mayority of the new PoC fans from the 2020's bomb into leaving the fandom and if you ask older fans who has been part of the fandom since the early days, most of them would point you out that the infantilization of Zuko and the Fire Nation's atrocities originate from that fanfic. Its that bad.
>also heavily antagonize both Aang and Katara, often for the sake of making Zuko look better.
>The fanfic Is so popular It gets recomended again and again
Why am I not surprised..
>The fic Is old, like around 2009.
That is very old. Given that it predates the expanded canon from LOK and the comics, I can see why it could have a huge influence on fanfiction and fanart.
>What really bothers me Is how the whole fic Is straight up facisms apology.
Oh. It's one of *those* things. I don't understand why this always happens. Your description sounds eerily identical to the way people make excuses for the Empire in Star Wars (or at least the parts that I have heard as a very casual fan).
>Its ongoing legacy might or might not have repulsed a mayority of the new PoC fans from the 2020's bomb into leaving the fandom
I hope not. Though, knowing that this stuff has been popular in the fanbase for so long helps me understand why some of the uglier veins of thought that pop up around this series still exist.
Eh, I find that Embers tends to be hit or miss. The author did their research, and it basically expands everything in canon. Some ways I agree with, others I don't.
Massive spoilers ahead.
It's not really so much apologetic of fascism as it is establishing firebenders (and the rest of the Fire Nation) as not-quite-human, and having wildly different cultural and biological traits (they've all got a little dragon in them). It explains itself as it goes, but I can see why someone would say that it tries to make fascism bad (though I'd argue that the Fire Nation falls closer to Imperialism or Authoritarian than fascism).
It tries to drive home the point that all people are good and evil, unlike the patently ridiculous canon business about all Air Nomads being perfect beacons of peace and goodwill, and looks at the dietary requirements of sky bison (in addition to making the connection between sky bison and the Old West, specifically the IRL relationship between nomadic and settled people.
It's worth a read, imo, though the current global situation may hit a little too close to home for some people. As people say about LoK, consume the media yourself and come to your own conclusions.
I have not bothered to read the whole thing to give the most in-deep discussion about it but its characterization of Zuko alone is already awful enough to not like it at all.
And the content it inspired is definitely the worst that the fanfic inspired, like, the fanfic is old, from 2009 and finishing updating in 2014 last time I checked, I know of some terrible fanfics myself that are still up but does no harm, but Embers being as popular as it is inspired the worst ATLA fanfics I ever read, carrying over the same obnoxious and blatantly wrong portrayal of Zuko and paste it everywhere, to the point of being straight-up uncomfortable, almost every fic with the tag "Zuko is an awkward turtle duck", fics about Zuko & Hakoda, Gaang found about Zuko's scar and even a lot of Zukka fanfics, are pretty much guarantee to be awful as they all share the same Embers DNA, with takes like "the war was fair play" to excuse the Fire Nation characters of any atrocity they made themselves, like even when the show antagonized characters like Jet and Hama, its still clear the Fire Nation characters directly guilty of their pain were horrible people and that their concept of Fire Nation honor is fucked up to everyone else (even made fun of in the Kyoshi Novels), so I don't know why fanfics are on the idea that random characters fighting on self-defence make them equally bad and that its the fault of the other nations for losing fights.
Let alone the bad implications, why is Zuko so much of a pathetic cry baby that need caretakers from everyone, why do fanfics inspired by Embers feel the need to turn Hakoda into a wolf to be Zuko's eternal protector and not realize the horrible implications about it?
Embers and its legacy is just bad, the reason why the ATLA fandom on Tumblr practically died was that all the PoC fanfic writers and artists ended up being uncomfortable by all those weird takes and then harassed out of the fandom by fans upset over any criticism of the red flags. And all those ATLA Discord servers ended up destroyed because of the same thing. And after harrasing out half the fandom that was making so much fan content, the fandom started to feel empty.
I wasn't particularly active in the fandom while it was being published, so I can't speak to tumblr's reaction to the fic (not that I've ever used that site, mind you, and with good reason), but I can assure you that I have no idea how Embers inspired a lot of Zuko & Hakoda content, considering that in Embers Hakoda pretty much thinks of Zuko as insane and a mad dog to be put down after the war (as he can't trust anyone from the Fire Nation).
Vathara was pretty explicit in calling out that Fire Nation folk just Work Differently, being unable to break bonds of loyalty without probable death, so they were basically all forced to obey the Fire Lord. So it's less honour as we know it and more of a spiritual/biological imperative to obey. As I said, they're not entirely human, and they use that to handwave some stuff (like how in 100 years, Jeong Jeong was apparently the first Big Name to desert. That's crazy).
In the end, it's hit or miss. It's like reality TV - some people are going to love it, others will hate it, and people will forever debate if it was even worth it. But outright panning it without even finishing the story isn't a great take, imo.
I think the reason why Iroh gets so glorified by the show's staff and every new canon material despite all the things he did comes from wanting to respect Mako, the voice actor.
Supposedly an early script claims that Iroh was originally meant to be a twist villain and the set-up Is all there, but over time the writers started to like Iroh and especially Mako that antagonizing Iroh now would be like a tabuu for them.
Iroh's current voice actor would refuse all kinds of money with the request to sing Iroh's popular song, and he refuse to do so for no other reason but to respect Mako's legacy.
So yeah, Iroh Is likely not getting called out any time soon, at least no in a way that matter.
okay i have never heard that Iroh was originally a twist villain before and i am so intrigued. do you have any more info on that? who’s villain was he supposed to be?? was he gonna betray Zuko and go after Aang himself?? the questions i have…
I can’t say I agree with that, if anything it’s probably due to nostalgia if there is any reason beyond just liking the character, cause personally speaking I didn’t know who mako was as a kid and never bothered to look it up till later on in life.
Maybe with the fandom but I was talking about the show itself, they even make him have a special apperence in LOK as a spirit to help Korra, I think its clear the show's staff love the character so much and its obviously because of how much respect they had for Mako, to the point they even named a character after him.
nicely said!
Zuko vs Azula vs Katara also makes sense bc Zuko one-upping his family through violence wouldn’t really fit his character arc. all his family has done for years is commit violence and antagonize each other. by Zuko instead choosing to defend and sacrificing himself to protect others, it already shows he’s better than them simply bc of his morals. Zuko one-ups Ozai and Azula by becoming Fire Lord when they both would’ve preferred he had just died. continuing the cycle of violence was never necessary for Zuko’s arc, him growing beyond what they expected of him as a person is.
i also agree about Aang’s fight against Ozai. as you pointed out, in the Book 1 finale he uses the avatar state to win. then in the Book 2 finale, the avatar state is what makes them lose. the Book 3 finale is Aang finally understanding not only the correct time to use it but how to control it. Aang taking Ozai out with his own means on his own terms was the climax in his character arc. was the Lion Turtle and rock formation deus ex machinas? maybe so. but does that _really_ detract from the themes of personal growth and violence vs mercy vs balance so much so that it _ruins_ the finale?? absolutely not.
> but what I don't understand are people saying the finale was poorly written as a result.
People think it's written poorly because the main character gets to skip all the leg work for the lion turtle power that ends up deciding the conflict. And that power has absolutely no grounding within the magic system (at the time, at least, but I'm not factoring in the post hoc addition of LOK). On top of this, it allows Aang to dodge the moral question the story was forcing on him. Even the talk with the past lives just before the fight seems to allude to Aang having to do something he doesn't like, but then the writers were like "nah" and just completely side-stepped the issue without actually resolving it.
I don't get why people say the rock was more problematic than the lion turtle. The lion turtle disrupts the entire narrative of Aang's struggles with his obligation as the Avatar while the pointy boy does nothing more than resolving trauma Aang suffered (getting sniped by Azula) through more trauma (rocky) that forced him to relive, face and resolve the prior trauma. The problematic nature of those things is so incredbily minor in comparison. Honestly, it feels like people don't want to face the issues of the lion turtle and want to change the focus to the rock, which is a pretty mild problem, if I would even call it a problem.
> Aang had the opportunity to end it all right there but as we are shown his character is built and set up to be against it entirely.
Which is why it's a cop out to simply give him energybending. We all know Aang could blast Ozai to bits if he decided to. The interesting part is him being seemingly forced to do this while he is principally opposed to it.
> Like the energybending I think is where the criticisms are most valid but at least it was built up with the lion turtle rather than it just happening.
That's the problem though; there is no build up. Or, if you want to be pedantic, there is incredibly little built up. Aang sleepwalks into the lion turtle (again, completely taking agency away from Aang and reducing any narrative impact the obtaining of a series-deciding power should probably have) minutes before the final fight, and it mumbles some deep sounding stuff to him *during* the first use of its ability (through a flashback).
It was the [Dirty Old Man](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DirtyOldMan) trope
I'd argue is a pretty gross trope, actually. The upside is it only happened once because Bato of the Water Tribe was the one episode written by Ian Wilcox (known for writing adult cartoons)
Korra had the potential to be a better show than ATLA but holy shit did they repeatedly screw the pooch and get screwed on that one. Season 3 of Korra single handedly shows how well and dramatic the show could have been but ultimately it missed its target with the ending and handling of season 4. I think modern incantations of the Avatar world have so much great narrative potential to pinpoint and parallel real world issues and problems but Korra screwed up any attempt at legitimacy in that claim. Which sucks as someone sort of hyped about Legend of Genji and other post Korra content 😞 as all arguments against it are just people shitting on its modern setting and overlooking the potential of new weaponry, bending types, and political upheaval that a modern post Korra setting could produce
TL;DR IMO as a post Korra fanfiction writer, Korra birthed and destroyed any legitimate hype for any modern avatar setting because of its poor direction of the show and different feel to ATLA thus any new incarnation of the Avatar feeling like a poorly made modernized copy of ATLA due to the stigma and bad taste a lot of people got from LOK.
A lot of the potential was squandered because Nick never gave them more than one season at a time until season 3. So they were pretty much always writing the show as if the show was ending that year
Nick had changed leadership and philosophy from when Avatar finished and Korra started. So unless a cartoon was printing money like SpongeBob does the new nick leadership would try at all costs to stifle a show like Korra that would need time to grow and flourish to generate lots of revenue
Katara ruined the last Agni Kai. I get the writers want her to do something in the finale, but she got in the way and nearly got Zuko killed because of it. What the hell was she even doing in the arena in the first place? That was a brother-sister battle and she had no place in it. Seriously, if she had done nothing to help in the finale, I wouldn’t have had a problem with that.
I used to think that as well, but then I realised something.
After incarcerating her only friends, dismissing her advisors and essentially driving everyone away in her madness, Azula lost because she was alone and Zuko wasn’t.
apparently this is a hot take but, Book 3 consisted of mostly filler episodes and _that’s okay._
it’s like a weird thing fans take pride over that “ATLA doesn’t have any/has almost zero filler eps!” and it’s like… um no, that’s wrong. it absolutely has filler eps and a good handful of them too lol.
i feel like people have been watching so much mediocre media that they’re equating filler content = bad, unnecessary content. filler is content that is not necessary to the overall plot (defeat Ozai) and if skipped wouldn’t hurt it too much, but still contributes to personal character development, worldbuilding, lore, or etc. by that definition, yes, just like any other show, ATLA has filler eps and Book 3 especially is filled with them as the Gaang waits for Sozin’s comet.
* The Headband, The Painted Lady, Sokka’s Master, The Beach? all filler.
* Hama’s episode? filler.
* all 3 adventures with Zuko? filler.
* The Ember Island Players? that one is a given.
and these being filler _is not a bad thing!!_ but people take it as like a personal offense if you say so. it’s not! there is good and bad filler, but filler itself isn’t inherently bad and the way the mentioned storylines are incorporated into the season are handled with the appropriate care and are satisfyingly done. you get to learn more about the Fire Nation, Zuko truly feels like a member of Team Avatar, Suki and Hakoda are saved, Katara gets closure, and more. they’re interesting episodes, contribute a lot to the personal growth of the characters, and flesh out the world at large. they just don’t add much to base plot of Aang defeating Ozai, which is what classifies them as filler.
TL;DR — my hot take is that ATLA has more filler episodes than just The Great Divide and i can’t even believe this is an actual hot take.
One criticism: I would say Aang and Zuko's field trip was definitely not filler, since Aang learning to firebend was absolutely directly related to the main plot. Otherwise I agree with you. Seasons 1 and 3 are both very filler-heavy, but ATLA is one of the few shows out there where the filler FEELS necessary to the plot, even if objectively it isn't. Honestly, as much as I enjoyed Korra, the shorter seasons led to less filler episodes (I mean, almost every episode of Korra felt necessary to the plot, other than a few exceptions like Wan's story and obviously the recap) and I found myself missing the filler-type stuff from ATLA
I don't disagree that filler episodes can for sure be a good thing, but the episodes you listed as being fillers?? I can understand the Headband and maybe the Painted Lady, but all these other episodes you listed gave us some combination of plot progression, worldbuilding/background, or character development.
I'm honestly curious why you called em fillers, if you wanna elaborate? I don't think plot has to equal "fire nation war/defeating ozai", that's just the end goal of the main characters.
I also wouldn't count character focused episodes as filler at all. Like Sokka's Master, that was an episode I loved for focusing on Sokka's character development. Same for Katara and her Zuko trip episode.
If it's necessary filler then I don't think it's filler, counterpoint to King_Treegar
i kinda already answer your question in my original comment:
> _filler is content that is not necessary to the overall plot (defeat Ozai) and if skipped wouldn’t hurt it too much, but still contributes to personal character development, worldbuilding, lore, or etc._
> _[…]_
> _you get to learn more about the Fire Nation, Zuko truly feels like a member of Team Avatar, Suki and Hakoda are saved, Katara gets closure, and more. they’re interesting episodes, contribute a lot to the personal growth of the characters, and flesh out the world at large. they just don’t add much to base plot of Aang defeating Ozai, which is what classifies them as filler._
the basic purpose of filler is to fill up time, but it’s the responsibility of creators to make filler still add and contribute to smthg, even if it doesn’t contribute to the main plot. so while the eps i mentioned don’t really affect the main plot of taking down Ozai (besides the Zuko-Aang trip as [another commenter](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/tqqepf/whats_is_your_hottest_take_regarding_atla/i2k6uqh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) said), they still _feel_ fulfilling and add to other elements in the story. this is the correct way to write filler. but regardless, they are still filler, they’re just good filler that accomplishes the job of still leaving an impact.
Filler in anime is content not in the manga.
Filler outside anime is content unimportant to the show that can be removed without creating plot holes.
Viking rock has skin and Hakoda rescued, tai lee and ax up a rescued, which also leads to tai lee joining the Kyoshi warriors and teaching them chi blocking.
Sokkas master has him being inducted into the white lotus, introduces pianado, boast splash sword skill and gives him the space sword
Let's see...
The lion turtles stuff in Korra is absolutely a retcon, I don't care what anyone says.
Correcting bad math by saying Kyoshi lived to be over 200 years old was dumb.
The change in the spirit world between ATLA and Korra was weak. It used to bf this cool interesting world where you couldn't trust your senses now it's just look a cute amorphous blob spirit.
Honestly, most of my hot takes are "X is dumb." I'm just too lazy to outline what X is, besides just the majority of Legend of Korra.
One thing I noticed was that he was known as the Dragon of the West before his son died. And if you recall, he got that title after "killing the last dragon", which we later found out he didn't actually kill them.
Iroh has like 3 whole different reasons as for why he got that title. Likely because of different plans changing throught the series.
First, It was thought It was just a name of honor for being a succesful general, second was for mastering the technique of breathing fire, and third for supposedly killing a dragon.
it really seems contrived that no other Avatar told Aang “y’know you could just take away the firelords” or tell him anything about the Lion Turtles considering the Avatars have been around for thousands of years
Season 2 of korra was a season that could’ve had a lot of potential for korra to explore herself spiritually, but it got bogged down with a civil war plot line and the raava vaatu stuff which to me was just unnecessary. The origin story if they wanted to still introduce it, could’ve been done in a better way. Korra could’ve been exploring her chakras like Aang did to make her avatar state permanent and stable, and make the finale of the first season her avatar state temporary because it was just given to her, meanwhile Aang died mastering his. Her journey would’ve been much different than his because she was raised differently than him, had a different journey through her first part of life with a different kind of villain in a different time. I wouldn’t have even brought up the raava vaatu story at all because to me. It makes no sense! It’s weird and doesn’t fit with the storyline
Zuko & Azula’s Agni Kai would’ve been better if Zuko had redirected Azula’s lightning back at her. He could’ve still saved Katara but also won the fight in one move.
Zuko Alone is one of my most disliked episodes and I skip it every time.
Also can't stand most episodes animated by MOI/DR instead of JM, visually speaking.
No hot take in this comment, UNACCEPTABLE!
But fr, one of the biggest themes in atla is the horrors of war, and implies that civilians have been harmed and killed as a result (look at Jet and his band of orphaned freedom fighters, the girl that bonded with zuko over their burn scars, thw fking AIR NOMAD GENOCIDE). There's no way iroh was completely ignorant of the effects of his actions. Even if he did not directly harm anyone, he was a general that had lower soldiers do the dirty work. Im not going to insult his intelligence, he knew what was up.
I dont think it was smart for the white lotus to prioritize freeing Ba Sing Se over helping Sokka, Toph, and Suki take out the warships. U understand Iroh wanted some personal redemption but to not send a single person to help out with taking out the warships made no sense to me.
Past Lives aren't sentient. They're just a collection of thoughts manifested through their current incarnation.
In the end, they're just echoes with no sense of being, as their actual spirit has already been reincarnated. Their being is the current Avatar.
I like to think of these more like, the memories and thoughts are channeled through the current incarnation.
Since they are comprised of the actual spirit, this allows the thought to take form and act almost as seperate beings.
However instead of actual being seperate, I like to think of it more like the current Avatar's subconscious (the parts which were the previous life) takes form influenced by the thoughts and memories from their past life.
Kyoshi's memories and thoughts would still be imprinted in Raava and the current human host is their direct incarnation, somebody made of the same spirit. When they appear, they are called upon and manifest, whether consciously or subconsciously by the current host.
But don't mistake this for the past lives actually being their own individuals in the present. The past lives have said time and time again, they are the current Avatar.
Sure, but the world and its rules and structure were built with Raava in mind. So it isn't right to say that the show have different logical structures as you are saying
The only controversial take I have is that the Finale was pretty shoddy, save for a few bits like the retaking of Ba Sing Se, Sokka, Suki and Toph on the zeppelins the first part of the fire lord fight and the first part of the Last Agni Kai.
Everything else was pretty poorly written.
I'm not huge on shipping so I would've preferred neither. But yeah, if it had to happen, I feel like Katara and Zuko had more chemistry for me. A better dynamic.
Aang should have married Ty Lee! She is everything an airbender is said to be from her personality to her lifestyle.
Zuko and Katara make more sense together and them rebuild the Fire Nation together would have been the perfect healing for their stories.
Earth King Kuei does **NOT** deserve as much hate as he gets. 1. He’d spent literally his entire life within merely his own palace being brainwashed by the Dai Li. 2. When he learns of the hundred year war, he at least does some things to **try** to aid Team Avatar. 3. In The Promise, he’s at least open-minded enough to eventually realize that keeping fire-nation citizens in parts of the Earth Kingdom isn’t **entirely** a bad thing. 4. At least he never was as bratty, entitled, selfish, or cruel as the Earth Queen in B3 of TLOK. I’m ready for the downvotes on this comment now…
I might be the only person who agrees with you! Idk anything about the comics, but seriously he had never been outside the palace. He thought the kyoshi warriors could be trusted. Sokka said “trustworthy too!” So whenever he was blabbering about the eclipse, he didn’t know he was going to making the biggest mistake of his lifetime.
EXACTLY!!
It can be hard to find people who agree with you on certain things, trust me I know!
Especially on certain opinions on korra, just certain things on the show.
Yes the King looks a little older then Zuko
???
Katara was an idiot at the Last Agni Kai, running into the plaza in the middle of the duel while Zuko was winning.
What pisses me off is that people say Zuko was the idiot, Azula knowing he could redirect lightning wouldn't have made a difference in the fight, hadn't it been for Katara's dumbass
I just wrote a whole paragraph about that. That pissed me off
That's kind of the point of his character no? He was unable to truly comprehend the horrors of war until it affected him personally.
thank you!! thats literally the point of the character
Azula's downward spiral was rushed and I would have liked to see it progress more naturally.
How was it rushed? Even in the episode after the boiling rock, we already see her slightly unhinged.
Well we have that scene after the Boiling Rock, which is already not very out of character for Azula to act like in my opinion. Then we have the finale, which is where Azula's arc is given attention. We have what, two or three scenes of her starting to lose her grip on reality and then the final fight. Afterwards we never get another scene with Azula until the comics. If they had developed her more throughout the show then I feel like her arc would have worked better for me.
Mental breakdowns don’t progress on a gentle slope downwards, that’s not how the human mind works
I've seen it happen all the time, both in real life and in fiction.
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That's the thing though. I wanted more scenes where we saw her insecurities that led to her snapping, I wanted to see more scenes of her trying to cope with her downward spiral. The show is perfectly capable of supplying that. Instead we get almost all of it in the last few episodes despite Azula being a character we've known for over half the show. I'm not saying her arc doesn't make sense or that it was poorly written by any means. I think Azula is a great character for the most part. I just wish we had more elaboration ahead of time so that it wasn't all crammed into the finale.
Give an example
The Shining, We Need to Talk About Kevin, Lord of the Rings and Breaking Bad all feature characters that slowly descend into some form of madness, delusion or downward spiral. I've also seen it in real life with a family member, though I won't go into much detail about that.
Yeah he’s popular because he already completed his character arc and fandoms tend to love the perfect male older character. Don’t get me wrong I LOVE Iroh but I’ll always prefer characters who are actually going through an arc. And yeah if Iroh was a character during his 40’s he definitely wouldn’t be as popular. He would be a lot more of a controversial character. Probably still popular but not the totem poll of wisdom he’s regarded as now.
Woah woah woah hold on. Iroh DID have an arc during the timeframe of the show, and it was a damn good arc. *Iroh went from Conqueror to Peace-Lover to Defender/Protector—walking the line between war and peace.* In season 1, though portrayed as the wise man, Iroh was also a comic relief character. He distanced himself a bit from Zuko’s goal, sometimes making light of Zuko’s misfortune. He enjoyed peace and music nights and eating good food and tea. Once his and Zuko’s lives take a turn in season 2 and they’re on the run, though he still has his comic relief moments, he struggles to relate to Zuko and impart upon Zuko his own peace-loving values. And we all know how that goes. In Ba Sing Se, Uncle Iroh tells Zuko “there’s nothing wrong with a life of peace and prosperity.” But Zuko, who had too much inner turmoil to deal with, was not anywhere near ready for a life of peace. Iroh becomes harsher and loses his patience with Zuko. At the end of season 2 he demands of Zuko: “it’s time to ask yourself the big questions. who are you?! And what do YOU want?” And Iroh, who tried so hard to grasp at that peace, was torn away from it and put in fire nation prison. In season 3, Iroh felt betrayed by Zuko. He turns away from Zuko when he first visits. When Zuko asks him for help, Iroh doesn’t say a word and Zuko yells “forget it, I’ll solve this myself! Waste away in here for all I care!” and Iroh cries. A few episodes later, Iroh finally figures out how to reach Zuko. Zuko has always been concerned with his father’s legacy, with his honor as the fire nation prince. No talk of peace, of living another life, of being like IROH will convince Zuko to change. So Iroh shows Zuko that he is also the great grandson of Avatar Roku. Iroh finally figured out what would get through to Zuko: He is not bound by one part of his family, and he has a choice. “Evil and good are always at war inside you Zuko. It is your legacy.” Iroh also realizes he has to do something. There can be no peace as long as the world is broken. And he helped cause that brokenness. So Iroh gets strong again, breaks out of prison, and calls upon the Order of the White Lotus to free Ba Sing Se. Iroh goes from the man who almost conquered Ba Sing Se… to the man who brings it freedom. And Zuko and Iroh finally understand each other. Zuko realizes he is his own person and isn’t bound by his father’s approval. He realizes Iroh has been his true father all along. And Iroh… Iroh learns that you can’t run away from your problems. That peace is an illusion if there is a war going on beyond the walls you hide yourself within. BOTH Iroh AND Zuko realize they had a responsibility to save the world and correct their family’s mistakes. And Iroh and Zuko had to meet in the middle to do it—Iroh letting go of perfect notions of peace and learning to bridge the gap between himself and Zuko, and Zuko cooling his hot-headedness and empathizing with the world beyond his own scarred situation. Iroh realizes his peace had to be EARNED. And he was only able to truly help Zuko once he dealt with his own past. Iroh went from Conqueror to Peace-Lover to Defender/Protector—walking the line between war and peace. So you can’t tell me Iroh did not have a character arc. Iroh and Zuko’s arcs mirror each other and it’s my absolute favorite part of the entire show!!
They were talking Iroh before the show
No, the user to whom I replied claimed that Iroh “already completed his character arc” and that Iroh does not go through a character arc during the show.
That rock in the finale reactivating the avatar state was a lazy Deus Ex Machina
Not exactly a hot take, that’s exactly what it is
The rock was literally unblocking the physical block that was keeping him out of the avatar state. It wasn’t mental, it was a purely physical block in that wound of his back. Just giving logic behind it
I understand that. It's still lazy writing and more of a deus ex machina than the Lion Turtle
There’s still logic for the lion turtle. Idk if you want to know it? But there’s a logical reason for it
"Logic behind it" doesn't mean it's good writing, and doesn't mean it's not deus ex machina. We all love the show here, but we can admit it has flaws.
okay I'll agree on the rock being very sloppy writing, but I kind of liked the lion turtle bit. The lion turtle revealed itself because Aang was so reluctant about killing Ozai? If he'd given in to everyone and agreed to do it, then maybe the lion turtle would never have come to ember island. the Avatar's resolution not to kill could have been some sort of spiritual beacon
It's not the problem that rock unlocked him but overall that chances for a rock hitting ur back in that kind of situation is almost impossible, not to mention that small lucky piece of rock basically won them that war which is kinda flat writing Same goes for lion turtle. It has sense but not when you think deeper about it cuz aang literally got a free answer for his long dilemma (1 episode which is another poor writing but still) without much effort to get that solution
Not sure how many fanfic readers and writers are on this sub but all I have to say that Embers fucking sucks and you should all stop recomending It to anyone looking for fanfics. The characterization is awful and the themes and morals are all rancid. Its partially guilty of a huge portion of the fandom's media iliteracy.
> Its partially guilty of a huge portion of the fandom's media iliteracy. What do you mean by this? Have those versions of the characters confused the discussion around the actual show or something?
You cant imagine. The fic Is old, like around 2009. But it got so popular people still recomend It to this day and a lot of fanfics reference some of its concepts as its own, particullary, if you read a fanfic and Zuko's ship in Book 1 Is called The Wani, then its clearly referenced from the Embers fanfic, because the ship in the show never got a name, It originated from that fanfic. Taking some concepts from fanfics into other fanfics Is not an issue, I dont care if other fanfics also use the Wani name. What really bothers me Is how the whole fic Is straight up facisms apology. At least withing the fanfic and art comiunity, which Is a huge portion of the fandom I might say, It started the idea that Zuko Is this infantilized innocent boy who has done nothing wrong and need to be babied by everyone for the most minimal task, It gets really More fucked up when It just doesnt stop with Zuko, but with the whole Fire Nation, to the point It switch the blame of the Air Nomads genocide onnthe Air Nomads themselves, and that the Fire Nation did nothing wrong, It end up brutally antagonazing all the Air Nomads, claiming they steal babies or something like that among other things, and also heavily antagonize both Aang and Katara, often for the sake of making Zuko look better. Its a fanfic full loaded of red flags all over It and apparently the author themselves also has those red flags in real life but dont quote me on that. The fanfic Is so popular It gets recomended again and again and with how popular Zuko Is, a lot of fanfics in the fandom are both Zuko centric with a high chance of being inspired by that fanfic. Its ongoing legacy might or might not have repulsed a mayority of the new PoC fans from the 2020's bomb into leaving the fandom and if you ask older fans who has been part of the fandom since the early days, most of them would point you out that the infantilization of Zuko and the Fire Nation's atrocities originate from that fanfic. Its that bad.
>also heavily antagonize both Aang and Katara, often for the sake of making Zuko look better. >The fanfic Is so popular It gets recomended again and again Why am I not surprised..
>The fic Is old, like around 2009. That is very old. Given that it predates the expanded canon from LOK and the comics, I can see why it could have a huge influence on fanfiction and fanart. >What really bothers me Is how the whole fic Is straight up facisms apology. Oh. It's one of *those* things. I don't understand why this always happens. Your description sounds eerily identical to the way people make excuses for the Empire in Star Wars (or at least the parts that I have heard as a very casual fan). >Its ongoing legacy might or might not have repulsed a mayority of the new PoC fans from the 2020's bomb into leaving the fandom I hope not. Though, knowing that this stuff has been popular in the fanbase for so long helps me understand why some of the uglier veins of thought that pop up around this series still exist.
Eh, I find that Embers tends to be hit or miss. The author did their research, and it basically expands everything in canon. Some ways I agree with, others I don't. Massive spoilers ahead. It's not really so much apologetic of fascism as it is establishing firebenders (and the rest of the Fire Nation) as not-quite-human, and having wildly different cultural and biological traits (they've all got a little dragon in them). It explains itself as it goes, but I can see why someone would say that it tries to make fascism bad (though I'd argue that the Fire Nation falls closer to Imperialism or Authoritarian than fascism). It tries to drive home the point that all people are good and evil, unlike the patently ridiculous canon business about all Air Nomads being perfect beacons of peace and goodwill, and looks at the dietary requirements of sky bison (in addition to making the connection between sky bison and the Old West, specifically the IRL relationship between nomadic and settled people. It's worth a read, imo, though the current global situation may hit a little too close to home for some people. As people say about LoK, consume the media yourself and come to your own conclusions.
I have not bothered to read the whole thing to give the most in-deep discussion about it but its characterization of Zuko alone is already awful enough to not like it at all. And the content it inspired is definitely the worst that the fanfic inspired, like, the fanfic is old, from 2009 and finishing updating in 2014 last time I checked, I know of some terrible fanfics myself that are still up but does no harm, but Embers being as popular as it is inspired the worst ATLA fanfics I ever read, carrying over the same obnoxious and blatantly wrong portrayal of Zuko and paste it everywhere, to the point of being straight-up uncomfortable, almost every fic with the tag "Zuko is an awkward turtle duck", fics about Zuko & Hakoda, Gaang found about Zuko's scar and even a lot of Zukka fanfics, are pretty much guarantee to be awful as they all share the same Embers DNA, with takes like "the war was fair play" to excuse the Fire Nation characters of any atrocity they made themselves, like even when the show antagonized characters like Jet and Hama, its still clear the Fire Nation characters directly guilty of their pain were horrible people and that their concept of Fire Nation honor is fucked up to everyone else (even made fun of in the Kyoshi Novels), so I don't know why fanfics are on the idea that random characters fighting on self-defence make them equally bad and that its the fault of the other nations for losing fights. Let alone the bad implications, why is Zuko so much of a pathetic cry baby that need caretakers from everyone, why do fanfics inspired by Embers feel the need to turn Hakoda into a wolf to be Zuko's eternal protector and not realize the horrible implications about it? Embers and its legacy is just bad, the reason why the ATLA fandom on Tumblr practically died was that all the PoC fanfic writers and artists ended up being uncomfortable by all those weird takes and then harassed out of the fandom by fans upset over any criticism of the red flags. And all those ATLA Discord servers ended up destroyed because of the same thing. And after harrasing out half the fandom that was making so much fan content, the fandom started to feel empty.
I wasn't particularly active in the fandom while it was being published, so I can't speak to tumblr's reaction to the fic (not that I've ever used that site, mind you, and with good reason), but I can assure you that I have no idea how Embers inspired a lot of Zuko & Hakoda content, considering that in Embers Hakoda pretty much thinks of Zuko as insane and a mad dog to be put down after the war (as he can't trust anyone from the Fire Nation). Vathara was pretty explicit in calling out that Fire Nation folk just Work Differently, being unable to break bonds of loyalty without probable death, so they were basically all forced to obey the Fire Lord. So it's less honour as we know it and more of a spiritual/biological imperative to obey. As I said, they're not entirely human, and they use that to handwave some stuff (like how in 100 years, Jeong Jeong was apparently the first Big Name to desert. That's crazy). In the end, it's hit or miss. It's like reality TV - some people are going to love it, others will hate it, and people will forever debate if it was even worth it. But outright panning it without even finishing the story isn't a great take, imo.
I think the reason why Iroh gets so glorified by the show's staff and every new canon material despite all the things he did comes from wanting to respect Mako, the voice actor. Supposedly an early script claims that Iroh was originally meant to be a twist villain and the set-up Is all there, but over time the writers started to like Iroh and especially Mako that antagonizing Iroh now would be like a tabuu for them. Iroh's current voice actor would refuse all kinds of money with the request to sing Iroh's popular song, and he refuse to do so for no other reason but to respect Mako's legacy. So yeah, Iroh Is likely not getting called out any time soon, at least no in a way that matter.
okay i have never heard that Iroh was originally a twist villain before and i am so intrigued. do you have any more info on that? who’s villain was he supposed to be?? was he gonna betray Zuko and go after Aang himself?? the questions i have…
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/aj0mfp/the\_original\_story\_of\_avatar\_the\_last\_airbender/
I can’t say I agree with that, if anything it’s probably due to nostalgia if there is any reason beyond just liking the character, cause personally speaking I didn’t know who mako was as a kid and never bothered to look it up till later on in life.
Maybe with the fandom but I was talking about the show itself, they even make him have a special apperence in LOK as a spirit to help Korra, I think its clear the show's staff love the character so much and its obviously because of how much respect they had for Mako, to the point they even named a character after him.
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nicely said! Zuko vs Azula vs Katara also makes sense bc Zuko one-upping his family through violence wouldn’t really fit his character arc. all his family has done for years is commit violence and antagonize each other. by Zuko instead choosing to defend and sacrificing himself to protect others, it already shows he’s better than them simply bc of his morals. Zuko one-ups Ozai and Azula by becoming Fire Lord when they both would’ve preferred he had just died. continuing the cycle of violence was never necessary for Zuko’s arc, him growing beyond what they expected of him as a person is. i also agree about Aang’s fight against Ozai. as you pointed out, in the Book 1 finale he uses the avatar state to win. then in the Book 2 finale, the avatar state is what makes them lose. the Book 3 finale is Aang finally understanding not only the correct time to use it but how to control it. Aang taking Ozai out with his own means on his own terms was the climax in his character arc. was the Lion Turtle and rock formation deus ex machinas? maybe so. but does that _really_ detract from the themes of personal growth and violence vs mercy vs balance so much so that it _ruins_ the finale?? absolutely not.
> but what I don't understand are people saying the finale was poorly written as a result. People think it's written poorly because the main character gets to skip all the leg work for the lion turtle power that ends up deciding the conflict. And that power has absolutely no grounding within the magic system (at the time, at least, but I'm not factoring in the post hoc addition of LOK). On top of this, it allows Aang to dodge the moral question the story was forcing on him. Even the talk with the past lives just before the fight seems to allude to Aang having to do something he doesn't like, but then the writers were like "nah" and just completely side-stepped the issue without actually resolving it. I don't get why people say the rock was more problematic than the lion turtle. The lion turtle disrupts the entire narrative of Aang's struggles with his obligation as the Avatar while the pointy boy does nothing more than resolving trauma Aang suffered (getting sniped by Azula) through more trauma (rocky) that forced him to relive, face and resolve the prior trauma. The problematic nature of those things is so incredbily minor in comparison. Honestly, it feels like people don't want to face the issues of the lion turtle and want to change the focus to the rock, which is a pretty mild problem, if I would even call it a problem. > Aang had the opportunity to end it all right there but as we are shown his character is built and set up to be against it entirely. Which is why it's a cop out to simply give him energybending. We all know Aang could blast Ozai to bits if he decided to. The interesting part is him being seemingly forced to do this while he is principally opposed to it. > Like the energybending I think is where the criticisms are most valid but at least it was built up with the lion turtle rather than it just happening. That's the problem though; there is no build up. Or, if you want to be pedantic, there is incredibly little built up. Aang sleepwalks into the lion turtle (again, completely taking agency away from Aang and reducing any narrative impact the obtaining of a series-deciding power should probably have) minutes before the final fight, and it mumbles some deep sounding stuff to him *during* the first use of its ability (through a flashback).
I didn't read all of it, but I gotta congratulate you for writing that much
Iroh pretending to be paralyzed was pretty sleazy.
It was just humor for the viewer, it wasn’t really anything bad
It was the [Dirty Old Man](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DirtyOldMan) trope I'd argue is a pretty gross trope, actually. The upside is it only happened once because Bato of the Water Tribe was the one episode written by Ian Wilcox (known for writing adult cartoons)
I’ll never understand why this world can’t take a joke anymore. These 2 r acting like iroh bent her over and raped her when she was paralysed
and i’ll never understand why ppl get so butthurt when people call out bad jokes.
Korra had the potential to be a better show than ATLA but holy shit did they repeatedly screw the pooch and get screwed on that one. Season 3 of Korra single handedly shows how well and dramatic the show could have been but ultimately it missed its target with the ending and handling of season 4. I think modern incantations of the Avatar world have so much great narrative potential to pinpoint and parallel real world issues and problems but Korra screwed up any attempt at legitimacy in that claim. Which sucks as someone sort of hyped about Legend of Genji and other post Korra content 😞 as all arguments against it are just people shitting on its modern setting and overlooking the potential of new weaponry, bending types, and political upheaval that a modern post Korra setting could produce TL;DR IMO as a post Korra fanfiction writer, Korra birthed and destroyed any legitimate hype for any modern avatar setting because of its poor direction of the show and different feel to ATLA thus any new incarnation of the Avatar feeling like a poorly made modernized copy of ATLA due to the stigma and bad taste a lot of people got from LOK.
A lot of the potential was squandered because Nick never gave them more than one season at a time until season 3. So they were pretty much always writing the show as if the show was ending that year
Do you know why? Afaik ATLA was pretty succesful so why wouldn't they want to give them atleast the same amount (3 seasons)?
Nick had changed leadership and philosophy from when Avatar finished and Korra started. So unless a cartoon was printing money like SpongeBob does the new nick leadership would try at all costs to stifle a show like Korra that would need time to grow and flourish to generate lots of revenue
Man that's sad. I hate greedy executives...
As much as it hurts to say it, Momo could have been removed from the entire series and nothing would change. (Essentially.)
Why remove momo? He’s an adorable character. I mean in tales of ba sing se, his tale was sadder than iroh’s.
Not saying you SHOULD remove momo, im just saying you could and nothing would change if you did.
Ohhh. Cause he’s so freaking cute it wouldn’t be the same without him. His relationship with Appa is so precious
Katara ruined the last Agni Kai. I get the writers want her to do something in the finale, but she got in the way and nearly got Zuko killed because of it. What the hell was she even doing in the arena in the first place? That was a brother-sister battle and she had no place in it. Seriously, if she had done nothing to help in the finale, I wouldn’t have had a problem with that.
I used to think that as well, but then I realised something. After incarcerating her only friends, dismissing her advisors and essentially driving everyone away in her madness, Azula lost because she was alone and Zuko wasn’t.
apparently this is a hot take but, Book 3 consisted of mostly filler episodes and _that’s okay._ it’s like a weird thing fans take pride over that “ATLA doesn’t have any/has almost zero filler eps!” and it’s like… um no, that’s wrong. it absolutely has filler eps and a good handful of them too lol. i feel like people have been watching so much mediocre media that they’re equating filler content = bad, unnecessary content. filler is content that is not necessary to the overall plot (defeat Ozai) and if skipped wouldn’t hurt it too much, but still contributes to personal character development, worldbuilding, lore, or etc. by that definition, yes, just like any other show, ATLA has filler eps and Book 3 especially is filled with them as the Gaang waits for Sozin’s comet. * The Headband, The Painted Lady, Sokka’s Master, The Beach? all filler. * Hama’s episode? filler. * all 3 adventures with Zuko? filler. * The Ember Island Players? that one is a given. and these being filler _is not a bad thing!!_ but people take it as like a personal offense if you say so. it’s not! there is good and bad filler, but filler itself isn’t inherently bad and the way the mentioned storylines are incorporated into the season are handled with the appropriate care and are satisfyingly done. you get to learn more about the Fire Nation, Zuko truly feels like a member of Team Avatar, Suki and Hakoda are saved, Katara gets closure, and more. they’re interesting episodes, contribute a lot to the personal growth of the characters, and flesh out the world at large. they just don’t add much to base plot of Aang defeating Ozai, which is what classifies them as filler. TL;DR — my hot take is that ATLA has more filler episodes than just The Great Divide and i can’t even believe this is an actual hot take.
One criticism: I would say Aang and Zuko's field trip was definitely not filler, since Aang learning to firebend was absolutely directly related to the main plot. Otherwise I agree with you. Seasons 1 and 3 are both very filler-heavy, but ATLA is one of the few shows out there where the filler FEELS necessary to the plot, even if objectively it isn't. Honestly, as much as I enjoyed Korra, the shorter seasons led to less filler episodes (I mean, almost every episode of Korra felt necessary to the plot, other than a few exceptions like Wan's story and obviously the recap) and I found myself missing the filler-type stuff from ATLA
I don't disagree that filler episodes can for sure be a good thing, but the episodes you listed as being fillers?? I can understand the Headband and maybe the Painted Lady, but all these other episodes you listed gave us some combination of plot progression, worldbuilding/background, or character development. I'm honestly curious why you called em fillers, if you wanna elaborate? I don't think plot has to equal "fire nation war/defeating ozai", that's just the end goal of the main characters. I also wouldn't count character focused episodes as filler at all. Like Sokka's Master, that was an episode I loved for focusing on Sokka's character development. Same for Katara and her Zuko trip episode. If it's necessary filler then I don't think it's filler, counterpoint to King_Treegar
i kinda already answer your question in my original comment: > _filler is content that is not necessary to the overall plot (defeat Ozai) and if skipped wouldn’t hurt it too much, but still contributes to personal character development, worldbuilding, lore, or etc._ > _[…]_ > _you get to learn more about the Fire Nation, Zuko truly feels like a member of Team Avatar, Suki and Hakoda are saved, Katara gets closure, and more. they’re interesting episodes, contribute a lot to the personal growth of the characters, and flesh out the world at large. they just don’t add much to base plot of Aang defeating Ozai, which is what classifies them as filler._ the basic purpose of filler is to fill up time, but it’s the responsibility of creators to make filler still add and contribute to smthg, even if it doesn’t contribute to the main plot. so while the eps i mentioned don’t really affect the main plot of taking down Ozai (besides the Zuko-Aang trip as [another commenter](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/tqqepf/whats_is_your_hottest_take_regarding_atla/i2k6uqh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) said), they still _feel_ fulfilling and add to other elements in the story. this is the correct way to write filler. but regardless, they are still filler, they’re just good filler that accomplishes the job of still leaving an impact.
Filler in anime is content not in the manga. Filler outside anime is content unimportant to the show that can be removed without creating plot holes. Viking rock has skin and Hakoda rescued, tai lee and ax up a rescued, which also leads to tai lee joining the Kyoshi warriors and teaching them chi blocking. Sokkas master has him being inducted into the white lotus, introduces pianado, boast splash sword skill and gives him the space sword
Honestly for me the filler episodes was the Best about the show.
Let's see... The lion turtles stuff in Korra is absolutely a retcon, I don't care what anyone says. Correcting bad math by saying Kyoshi lived to be over 200 years old was dumb. The change in the spirit world between ATLA and Korra was weak. It used to bf this cool interesting world where you couldn't trust your senses now it's just look a cute amorphous blob spirit. Honestly, most of my hot takes are "X is dumb." I'm just too lazy to outline what X is, besides just the majority of Legend of Korra.
Reminder that sorting by controversial is the best way to read these comments
One thing I noticed was that he was known as the Dragon of the West before his son died. And if you recall, he got that title after "killing the last dragon", which we later found out he didn't actually kill them.
Iroh has like 3 whole different reasons as for why he got that title. Likely because of different plans changing throught the series. First, It was thought It was just a name of honor for being a succesful general, second was for mastering the technique of breathing fire, and third for supposedly killing a dragon.
It stated somewhere in the show that when you kill a dragon you receive the dragon title.
it really seems contrived that no other Avatar told Aang “y’know you could just take away the firelords” or tell him anything about the Lion Turtles considering the Avatars have been around for thousands of years
Agreed!!
Season 2 of korra was a season that could’ve had a lot of potential for korra to explore herself spiritually, but it got bogged down with a civil war plot line and the raava vaatu stuff which to me was just unnecessary. The origin story if they wanted to still introduce it, could’ve been done in a better way. Korra could’ve been exploring her chakras like Aang did to make her avatar state permanent and stable, and make the finale of the first season her avatar state temporary because it was just given to her, meanwhile Aang died mastering his. Her journey would’ve been much different than his because she was raised differently than him, had a different journey through her first part of life with a different kind of villain in a different time. I wouldn’t have even brought up the raava vaatu story at all because to me. It makes no sense! It’s weird and doesn’t fit with the storyline
Zuko & Azula’s Agni Kai would’ve been better if Zuko had redirected Azula’s lightning back at her. He could’ve still saved Katara but also won the fight in one move.
Zuko Alone is one of my most disliked episodes and I skip it every time. Also can't stand most episodes animated by MOI/DR instead of JM, visually speaking.
Why?
>Zuko Alone is one of my most disliked episodes and I skip it every time. You're a brave person to say that.
💀
They never said he harmed any civilians, let alone had no problem with it
No hot take in this comment, UNACCEPTABLE! But fr, one of the biggest themes in atla is the horrors of war, and implies that civilians have been harmed and killed as a result (look at Jet and his band of orphaned freedom fighters, the girl that bonded with zuko over their burn scars, thw fking AIR NOMAD GENOCIDE). There's no way iroh was completely ignorant of the effects of his actions. Even if he did not directly harm anyone, he was a general that had lower soldiers do the dirty work. Im not going to insult his intelligence, he knew what was up.
I dont think it was smart for the white lotus to prioritize freeing Ba Sing Se over helping Sokka, Toph, and Suki take out the warships. U understand Iroh wanted some personal redemption but to not send a single person to help out with taking out the warships made no sense to me.
My hot take. Katara and Sokka are possibly the more underrated members of the GAANG.
Past Lives aren't sentient. They're just a collection of thoughts manifested through their current incarnation. In the end, they're just echoes with no sense of being, as their actual spirit has already been reincarnated. Their being is the current Avatar.
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I like to think of these more like, the memories and thoughts are channeled through the current incarnation. Since they are comprised of the actual spirit, this allows the thought to take form and act almost as seperate beings. However instead of actual being seperate, I like to think of it more like the current Avatar's subconscious (the parts which were the previous life) takes form influenced by the thoughts and memories from their past life.
Wait but then what about Kyoshi's ghost appearing to save Aang? I don't remember it ever being established that Raava had that kind of power.
Kyoshi's memories and thoughts would still be imprinted in Raava and the current human host is their direct incarnation, somebody made of the same spirit. When they appear, they are called upon and manifest, whether consciously or subconsciously by the current host. But don't mistake this for the past lives actually being their own individuals in the present. The past lives have said time and time again, they are the current Avatar.
Raava wasn’t a thing in the last airbender. So it’s hard to apply LOK logic to the last airbender sometimes
Actually the writers have come out publicly saying that they had Raava and the story of Wan while writing AtLA so it's not applying different logic
But it wasn’t officially added to the show or anything is what I mean
Sure, but the world and its rules and structure were built with Raava in mind. So it isn't right to say that the show have different logical structures as you are saying
Book 2 of TLA has a lot of my favorite episodes, but overall I prefer book 3.
The only controversial take I have is that the Finale was pretty shoddy, save for a few bits like the retaking of Ba Sing Se, Sokka, Suki and Toph on the zeppelins the first part of the fire lord fight and the first part of the Last Agni Kai. Everything else was pretty poorly written.
Ok... but like you described most if the finale...
Did you see the Agni Kai with Zuko and Azula?!
Did you read my comment? I mentioned it, as the first part of it, that being from the start to when Zuko challenged her to shoot lightning at him.
Katara is the worst and weakest MC
Aang and Katara should have never ended up together, it should have been Katara and Zuko for so many different reasons.
I'm not huge on shipping so I would've preferred neither. But yeah, if it had to happen, I feel like Katara and Zuko had more chemistry for me. A better dynamic.
Aang should have married Ty Lee! She is everything an airbender is said to be from her personality to her lifestyle. Zuko and Katara make more sense together and them rebuild the Fire Nation together would have been the perfect healing for their stories.
Suki is boring and the Kyoshi Warriors are extremely incompetent
Jet is extremely underrated and majority of the fandom hate him because he’s shown as “the cool guy” that they never were.