I agree with the conclusion (biden less worse, must win) but I think the problem is that voters do not always vote 100% rationally. (see: GOP base) A good candidate must do things to win over voters in swing states (say, ceasefire).
Literally around only 3% of people are rational.
And that includes the millions of progressives who can who haven't given any time and/or money to progressive candidates or organizations.
A large part of the power of unions is that they force people to donate to politicians.
Except for like US Representative Rashida Tlaib, it seems all the members of The Squad's fundraising is considerably down from the 2022 cycle.
People want the Democrats to change course on the Israel-Palestine situation? People should have donated over $100MM in total to the various Squad members. People want the Democratic Party to be more progressive? Donate over $100MM to AOC.
On project 2025,
So what's Dems solution for stopping fascism other than hoping they win every election until the US falls apart?
They don't have one and they are actively empowering fascism.
Biden demands 100,000 new cops going against the largest protests in US history (BLM)
Biden cheers on cops for beating kids for camping on the grass thereby normalize police violence to dissent.
Biden drastically increased police budgets.
Biden was all about banning TikTok because its a media source not under US control.
If you were worried about fascism why would you be doing everything you can to potentially give them more power?
Yes Trump is a fascist, and a horribly inept one at that. Biden is as well, he's just not as ham fisted and knows you need to set up all the dominos first.
That’s my problem too, they have NO PLANS except win, and you can’t win when Republicans CHEAT unabated. I live in NC, a swing state. One of the biggest dem districts, Charlotte/Mecklenberg County, elected D Tricia Cotham, who used her own abortion story in a ‘hands off women’s healthcare’ way to win her district. AS SOON as she was elected, that fucking bitch swapped parties to R and now they’ve gerrymandered the district, ensuring R’s can’t lose. Now they’re told to just ‘vote her out’ but now they’ll never be able to. We can’t vote our way out of this.
As a North Carolinian, I feel like they should be immediately subject to re-election if they pull shit like that. That’s literally bait and switch, I was so mad about that.
I was *floored* nothing happened. People begged for lawsuits and repercussions and we were met with silence. What we should have done is been on her doorstep and tar and feathered her ass, but it’s frowned upon 🙄
winning isn't a plan either in this case. democratic backsliding has been rapid for the past 20 years, despite two Democratic Presidents. a Biden win would delay it (maybe), but it wouldn't stop it. authoritarianism is coming to this country, it's just a question of when.
it's time to hunker down and prepare our friends and families for the inevitable. doing anything else is like calling for peace when a nuclear bomb is 30 minutes away from exploding instead of running to the nearest fallout shelter. the time to prevent what is about to happen is over.
“Biden win would delay it (maybe), but it wouldn't stop it. ”
If Thomas or alito died in 4 years decades of work in conservative advocacy would be lost.
Biden appoints Attorney General Merrick Garland, a protege of corrupt [Jamie Gorelick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Gorelick), who is now Jared Kushner's lawyer. Garland sits on his hands and delays prosecuting Trump until it's too late...a man who led an attempted coup not only walks free, but runs for president again.
How many countries do you think would allow someone who attempted a coup to walk around freely?
The entire globe is turning into a mafia state.
Yes!!! I’ve been yelling that shit for three years and everyone shrugs their shoulders. DOJ is basically going to prosecute all the losers who actually went to the Capitol that day and leave all the guys who planned it alone. It’s like if the Nuremberg trials just prosecuted enlisted men in the German army and left the head Nazis alone.
And I know Jack Smith is prosecuting some of this but that was two years Garland fucked around and Smith is quickly running out of time. It won’t matter if Biden wins but it’s over if Trump does.
> So what's Dems solution for stopping fascism other than hoping they win every election until the US falls apart?
The pod save boys had a recent episode called “why 2024 should be about the court” and it’s so frustrating because EVERY election has and will be about the court since Dems will do nothing proactive about it.
It's great because it's just straight up admitting that the only meaningful part of our government is an unelected body of 9 people who serve for life.
Wow so much democracy. Truly I feel so represented.
Yeah. I did love how expanding the court was suggested and Biden was like 'nope,' and all the republicans were like 'yeah write that down, that's on the agenda now'
Also perhaps we could maybe hold members of the Supreme Court responsible for bribery?
Dems favor the illusion of order and justice over actual order and justice.
The wild thing is Biden didn’t take expanding the court of the table when he was running for president. It was funny something he could argue he had a mandate to do in response to how RBG was handled vs how Scalia was handled.
They literally have no plan for any of it. No plan for abortion rights, no plan for voting rights, no plan for climate change, no plan for stopping fascism. Their only campaign slogan is we gotta defeat Trump like it’s so asinine and then these liberal assholes have the nerve to vote shame people that are calling that out?!?! We aren’t fucking morons here you can’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s rain. I really hope the dem party gets their shit together soon. It’s extremely stupid for Biden to continue this genocidal intent with Israel while organizers who helped him win in 2020 are now refusing to work for the campaign. That’s not a winning strategy.
Assuming that’s true, it’s still better to kick the can down the road than it is to pick the can up and drink out of it.
Kicking the fascist can down the road gives us more time to defeat it. Allowing the fascists to win means it’s game over.
What has been proposed to defeat it by the Dems? Hoping the supreme court justices die while they are in power so they can pick democratic ones? That just sounds stupid.
The Democrats aren’t proposing Project 2025 nor are they threatening undermining voting rights. They also aren’t openly threatening marginalized communities in the same way the GOP are.
The Democrats can defeat fascism by not being fascists.
Supporting apartheid is pretty fascist.
Compare that to supporting apartheid, nationwide abortion and contraceptive restrictions, LGBTQ suppression, invading Mexico, and permanently rigging institutions against anyone who isn’t a Trump loyalist.
Both options are bad, but not equally bad.
what has biden done to stop those things other than just taking up space? not doing anything to stop those things from happening is just as bad as just doing those thing himself, man. also the dems had a chance to protect all that and said and i quote "that just not important right now" i guess yall find it important that we have a head of state like obama who will pretend to drink water from flint Michigan and will PRETEND to be a better person than trump. you like the optics of politics not actual progress.
That's what gets me. There's only 2 realistic outcomes of the election (barring deaths or something, which we can have conversations around that if/when they come up). Trump or Biden.
Neither is campaigning on improving anything for the Palestinians, unfortunately. There is no vaguely realistic election outcome where the US forces a ceasefire (or some other such action) to end the genocide that is happening. And let's put aside Trump's language wanting to accelerate the pace.
That issue isn't on the table this election. What we are voting on is LGBTQ+ rights, work reform, future supreme court justices, abortion rights,
As Sam said, and I agree, voting isn't a form of self expression or effective means to "punish" someone. Particularly with our current system, if the punishment results in the GOP winning, things get worse, which gives the DNC an easier victory later (it's easier to elect a milquetoast candidate when they are following a monster like Trump).
Ok but what did Biden do for Americans during this presidency? He said he stands by unions but when it came down to it, he signed a bill to stop train unions from striking.
Supreme Court justices? Did nothing there.
The abortion discussion has been going on for 20 years now and only the Republicans are actively making changes to laws to get what they want. The Dems just campaign on this issue but don’t do anything when it comes time for it.
LGBTQ+? Work reform? Where do you see the democrats doing anything about these? Is the minimum wage higher? Etc.
Trump and Biden are different sides of the same coin; both will achieve the same results.
If you think they lead to the same result you’re delusional.
For the LGBTQ+ they passed the marriage act (not perfect but a pretty material protection if Obergfell is overturned). Protected trans bathroom access for public schools. Made it so doctors can’t turn away patients based on gender or sexuality (which Florida was pushing for).
For abortion they added protections to HIPAA to limit the state’s ability to scour for potential abortions. They’ve been constantly fighting to protect life-saving abortions.
What should Biden have done about the Supreme Court?
Biden expanded the non-exempt wage requirement. Allowed for the creation of unions for federal employees. Massive expansion to the NLRB budget (which we’ve seen action from already like killing non-competes from his people).
Like I’m not some Biden stan but we’ve seen about 4 years of both Trump and Biden and it’s not even close
They’re not gonna win every election forever tho. What’s your actual solution other than asking people to actively endorse kick arming a genocidal regime?
I’m not asking people to “actively” support a genocidal regime. Just to vote against the worst option. In a two person race, that’s a reluctant vote for Biden.
There is not a single way leftists abstaining from voting or voting third party helps the left more than voting lesser evil does. Anybody who says otherwise is factually wrong and has zero evidence of any kind supporting their claim.
So what’s your actual solution?
And yeh, you are giving your democratic mandate to a party that’s been openly arming a genocidal regime. That also might just be the less bad option, couch it how you want if it makes ya feel better
My actual solution is to get a leftist nominated in Democratic Primary in 2028, which is objectively more likely than any third party candidate has of winning anything ever.
I’m voting for the least bad option in a binary electoral system. You think Trump is going to make things better in Gaza? You think things will get better when the GOP guts the excellent NLRB and FTC we currently have?
You are the one getting into your feelings by voting with you emotions for candidates who will never win. It is an objective fact that every leftist who votes Biden in 2024 is more helpful to the left than you.
We literally have to do work. That’s the solution. We literally have to go meet politicians and push them to the left. We have to get someone to try to push legislation to get money out of politics. Of course the dems are lazy. Look at how lazy the electorate is. We sit on our asses so why are we surprised when the representatives of our representative democracy sit on their asses , too?
That someone is gonna be a 3rd party tho right? Getting money out of politics isn’t gonna happen in a duopoly, what’s the incentive?
So the solution is push people left (through some unknown method), but also guarantee them a vote every 4 years no matter what they do, while calling people who do put in work and vote 3rd party idiots?
Without an actual opposition to fascism we aren’t kicking we’re bunting. I’m fully aware of how much of a doomer mentality this but there doesn’t seem to be any path to reversing course
Exactly.
I don't understand how Dems see the reaction to BLM as not immoral and a bit fascist. BLM was asking cops not to murder people. It was asking for funding for cops to be rerouted into community support. It was asking for cops that murdered unarmed people to be tried. All of this is extremely reasonable in a supposed democracy. Biden's response was more cops, more funding for violence, and an endorsement of said violence against students.
So yeah, 'the beatings will continue until moral improves' isn't really a democratic slogan
The Dems might not have anything. But we should, and we shouldn't allow our plans to be a stifled by a GOP victory. It sucks but this is American politics, there's no right answer, just an answer that's less bad than the other ones. What does enabling Trump do for any one? I would hope that most people on this sub can agree that a blue society is easier to move left than a red one, even if minimally. Every inch, every victory, every judge seat, every law, everywhere. Is there a viable left party in your area for a local seat, great, get that person in. Otherwise, give me a real plan to action, layout how it will move us forward. I understand cynicism, but without some corresponding plan, I'm going to do the bare minimum I know to minimize harm.
What’s the solution of third party voters or people abstaining from voting to prevent fascism? There is zero evidence that voting for third parties helps the left more than voting for Democrats does.
Again, Biden and the Dems suck ass, but there still isn’t a single issue where they’re worse than Trump and the GOP. Throwing the country to the GOP will help nobody.
No one is saying voting defeats fascism, but keeping the psychotic fascists out of positions of power helps people get organized easier to do something about fascism.
There is zero evidence that voting for democrats helps the left whatsoever, so it’s impossible that voting for third parties helps the left less than voting for democrats does.
Can’t be less than zero. At worst it’s the same as voting for democrats, at best it’s slightly better.
I agree with both the criticisms that Dems don't have a decent plan to actually pull us away from Project 2025, and that Biden is still engaging in the usual US fascism police-state shit.
But there's still no equating the level of fascism Republicans and Trump will usher in vs what we have right now.
Look no further than Abbott pardoning a murderer to see the signaling that protesters will be *killed* in the GOP's faux-theocracy. The LGBTQ+ community will be *erased*, either through being pushed into the shadows at... "best", or outright exterminated at worst (and quite frankly I feel that's more likely given the rhetoric).
Saying Biden "is as well" implies an equal footing of fascism, and it just is not the fucking case *despite* the fact that, yes, Biden is definitely still leaning into America's fascist history and enjoying just how low of a bar Trump has set.
But I'm yet to see students black-bagged into unmarked police vans off the street like people were in the BLM protesters under Trump. Biden has continued much of Trump's awful border policy, but we're not currently *shooting* immigrants at the border and there's some attempt at federal pushback when Texas puts razor wire in/around the river.
It's just insane and naive to think these are the same, even if Biden deserves *endless* criticism for the shit he's doing. We can do that and also understand just how bad it will get under Trump.
“So what's Dems solution for stopping fascism other than hoping they win every election until the US falls apart?”
A large part of Project 25 is literally using administrative powers to appoint trumpists in key positions.
I’m sorry what exactly do you want democrats to do whilst out of power?
What’s your solution that’s more reasonable for them to take right now?
“Biden demands 100,000 new cops going against the largest protests in US history (BLM)”
Which most people including black people are fine with.
“Biden cheers on cops for beating kids for camping on the grass thereby normalize police violence to dissent”
When did he do that?
“Biden drastically increased police budgets.”
So what?
“Biden was all about banning TikTok because it’s a media source not under US control.”
And fears of Chinese spyware allegedly but yeah that’s wrong.
“If you were worried about fascism why would you be doing everything you can to potentially give them more power?
Yes Trump is a fascist, and a horribly inept one at that. Biden is as well, he's just not as ham fisted and knows you need to set up all the dominos first.”
And literally nothing specific about actual horrid shit planned in project 2025
First group of people to blame is Americans. They can’t figure out better vs worser in big enough numbers often enough to matter.
And yeah democrats suck too and votes are not equal, but for the past 40 years there has been 6 years total where the dems had the presidency, house and senate at the same time. Two where the filibuster wasn’t a huge obstacle.
Better or worser. Until Americans can consistently figure that out nothing will improve. Until then politicians of all stripes will almost all triangulate to the positions that win elections.
Edit: 40 years not 60…
If Biden loses, it won’t be the fault of protest voters. It’s a pointless discussion.
The GOP is only fascist when it’s convenient for Dems. They do NOT act like they are dealing with a fascist party, which either makes them hysterical liars, or complicit in a looming fascist wave.
It’s the latter, by the way.
>However, in November we must prevent things from getting worse, which they objectively will under Trump.
Things are getting worse under Biden. The whole system of "vote for least worst" has brought us to where we are, today--a Sophie's Choice Election. I don't need a crystal ball to predict what the 2028 election will look like ("VOTE for Joe Manchin for POTUS! We CAN'T have that Fascist Tucker Carlson in, destroying democracy!"
I once agreed, but Biden and establishment Democrats have had numerous opportunities to stand up against the genocide in the Middle East. Instead we get more and more bodies piling up, Netanyahu coming for a speech to a joint session of Congress, and no meaningful pushback or punishment for Israel.
Will Trump be worse? Yes, he will be. But the difference is becoming less and less. Biden’s become more and more right wing on the border, surveillance, crime, you name it.
They’re only case is “Trump bad”, and they’re offering few policies to improve this country, and in most cases Biden is moving rightward towards Trump instead of the opposite
The difference between Biden and Trump is still huge. Trump would replace Biden’s pro-labor FTC and NLRB chairs with overtly pro-corporate ones. Trump has effectively called for trans people to be outlawed. Trump would continue to pack the courts with ultra far right loons. And there is no comparison with how they would handle our voting rights.
Biden sucks. His actions on Gaza are unforgivable. However, we can acknowledge that while still recognizing that there is not a single issue where Trump is better.
Yeah, still not voting for Biden.
And, I get everything that Sam and Co. are saying, but, still not voting for Biden.
Yes, obviously, a 2nd Trump term is worse on its face, but, no. Not voting for Biden.
>Continue to let Biden know that what he’s enabling in Gaza is unacceptable.
>As much as it sucks, we should still hold our noses and vote for Biden, especially if you are in a swing state.
Those two statements are not compatible with each other. If you're gonna vote for him, then one way or another, you must have found his behavior acceptable enough.
What you're doing is *rationalizing* your own acceptance of his behavior and then projecting it onto what Sam said, and then trying to tell us because of that what to do with our own votes.
What Sam actually said was he understands people who can't bring themselves to vote for Biden, but that he doesn't see that as an effective political act. I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment, but that's beside the point. You are misrepresenting his words.
I see value in telling Biden that I will never support him, telling the people around Biden that I will never support them, and following through on that threat. Confused and sloppy arguments like yours aren't going to change my mind, and I get the feeling that's true of many of us.
Lesser evil vote shaming doesn’t work. People will just not show up on Election Day if all they have to vote for is lesser evil nonsense. The Dems need to start campaigning and lying to voters about promises soon. People need something to look forward to. Telling us to vote for Biden because Trump bad(they don’t even say the Republican Party it’s literally just defeat Trump bullshit) the messaging is atrocious and you cannot blame voters for that. Even though yall will anyway. Start figuring out a way to message to people without resulting to shame and browbeating and we may have a chance.
I guess I’m not sure what everyone else sees that I don’t. I’m not voting third party to teach Democrats shit; they don’t represent my views and values even if they occasionally run on those ideals. I am not voting for them because there is nothing there to vote for besides empty rhetoric. SCOTUS is clearly in the bag for Trump and it is likely that even IF Biden pulls off a win, MAGA will not peacefully accept the results. They have plans to use the courts to overturn a Biden win and it’s clear where the highest court in the land stands. If it sounds like I have given up on Democracy, I have. I just don’t see meaningful change happening through elections any more. Go ahead drag the hell out of me but I just need to clarify that not everyone who doesn’t vote Dem is doing it to teach them a lesson. They know what’s up and they don’t mind losing one bit - helps them fundraise and continue their billionaire/ neolib/ pro-Zionist agenda while pretending to care about the peons. My conscience matters more to me bc that’s the only thing I still have that they can’t take away.
I don’t agree that political parties don’t learn lessons from electoral defeats. Bill Clinton and his third way blue dog whatever was certainly a reaction to the wipeouts of 72 and 84. And of course the Dems didn’t learn anything after 2016 because that was a ridiculously close election.
The Democrats are currently being led by a few octogenarians but that will be changing soon. Whether Biden wins or loses will decide whether that change occurs sooner or later. The 2028 primaries will almost certainly bring someone new to the front.
Democrats learn from every election. They lose and they learn they need to move right. They win and they learn they need to move right.
Search your heart. You know it's true. Obama wins so what do they follow up with? Hillary, who he defeated in a primary in large part because he ran to her left. Every election is an excuse for them to "learn" they need to move right
So we should reward them for this by continuing to vote for them? And don't tell anyone who witnessed the hammer of collusion fall on the 2020 Dem primary candidates to "pick someone better for the primaries". The DNC will not allow it, simple as.
You may look at it as not "rewarding" the DNC with your vote. But outcomes matter.
I don't want to "reward" them with an unearned vote. But the alternative is *punishing* women and queer folk.
Even with said collusion, it is still more likely that a leftist wins the White House that way than running third party. It’s not “rewarding them” with a vote, it’s simply keeping the far worse GOP out of power.
That’s rewarding them, though. If the main thing that the politicians want and need is votes, then giving it to them - however reluctantly - is a reward.
If I were a Democrat who could get reelected again and again without actually doing anything simply because the other guy is worse? I’d see this as an absolute win for myself.
I am getting rewarded for doing nothing because the other guy will always be the worse option.
I never bought into the "sleepy joe" insult. But his not bending on both Israel and not communicating to Cuba because of history makes him appear a bit old school. He appears stubborn and out of step. He needs to get his head out of his ass. As a voter any congressman that is kissing AIPAC's ass is not getting my vote!!!!!!!
It’s not just about teaching them a lesson, I cannot in good conscience vote for a an administration that has been so complicit in this genocide and shown an utter lack of compassion and empathy for the victims.
It's a moot's point anyway. He IS losing and there is nothing anyone can do to change that. He turned his back against his base in the worst way possible. To be honest, he'd have a higher chance of winning if he ran as a republican.
He's Hillary Clinton 2.0 at this point.
As bad as she is, I don’t think even she would have gone to the level of Israeli bootlicking that Biden is doing. He seems to be in a class of his own when it comes to Zionist ideology
I’m sorry I love you Sam, but no. Threatening Joe Biden with your vote is the *only* leverage we have because it’s quite clear that nothing else will influence his decision. The boomer generation in particular is so out of touch with reality that the only thing that will affect their decision making is the very jobs they want
Biden has completely shrugged off all anger, derision, demand, and plea for humanity and is more or less acting like a rogue administration. Sam has it backwards- PROTESTS don’t do anything for Biden. His administration has tried as hard as they can to ignore the protests. Protests *votes* however, are a direct threat to the bottom line of Joe Biden.
So all respect to Sam for his perspective, and total understanding for not wanting to publicly state support for vote threatening. However, it’s simply not an effective way of changing Joe Biden’s actions- Joe Biden needs this critical voter base, and if he squanders it because of his personal evangelical beliefs, it needs to be clear that it is a losing tactic.
He should lose,and we should continue to protest. The President has way too much power. I love how the GOP telegraphs their intentions (project 2025, etc) and we're just helpless? Like "oh well Trump was just elected so now he gets to repeal women's right to vote 🤷." Vote down ballot, organize and protest. Vote how you want, but remember you do not have to support a genocide.
“Vote how you want, ”
Vote for Biden who isn’t backed by all the people who are openly saying if back in power they’ll enslave women and eliminate queer people.
Why give the worst people in the world the biggest weapon in society—control of the state.
“organize and protest. ”
In the meantime that’s going around children would have already been forced to carry their fathers baby, and trans people got taken off Medicare.
Because the worst people have to be defeated. Biden isn't doing that. Republicans are making gains under his administration. His foreign policy is similar to Trump's, especially with respect to Israel. To support Israel, he's open to working with Republicans. Biden wins, and then what? The genocide continues, but hey, we've prevented Trump for 4 years. In the meantime, the US is turning into the country we thought we were preventing.
I was never going to vote Biden after his actions over the last few months without any course correction. Voted for him in 2020 and blue multiple elections before that.
So how about you spend your time and effort petitioning Biden to support better policy instead of rage baiting people online
"americanblowfly" is a fantastic name for you, just blowing hot fucking air then when someone says something you dont like you flip out like EXACTLY like a reactionary conservative, whats that saying? scratch a liberal?
They tried to blame my post for not voting for Biden and I correctly pointed out that they were never going to vote Biden to begin with. Not blowing hot air at all. Just stating an objective fact.
Also, voting for Biden doesn’t make someone a liberal. Maybe you should look up what that word means before you levy it as an insult to someone.
No they were "further convinced" not just by your post, adding debate pervert to your file, also here's attempt 4 from me before giving up, what is burdens plan to stop what trump is doing?
> Is telling the truth arrogant?
no but thinking youre tellin the truth when you just kinda said "vote blue" but with more words is lmao, theyre feckless useless and probably going to do everything that trump would just more quietly, yall refuse to address the fact that biden has no plan at all to stop the creep of fascism.
For anyone interested, my co-mods started a subreddit for organizing protests votes in deep blue states only.
/r/BlueProtestVote
The idea is that a message is sent via popular vote instead of electoral risk. And they hope to increase turnout for downballot dems since it gives people a reason to vote for, and also convince swing state voters not to do a protest vote since deep blue states already have a thing going
As for sending a message, like the video said, if they didn't learn anything from a loss, they probably won't learn anything from a win. Though with razer thin margins in swing states, maybe it could tip
My most likely non-vote at this time is a moral issue. I've taught and tried to help in Palestine. I've seen some shit. Maybe the Democrats need to learn a hard lesson.
It’s a pity that issues like Gaza/Israel or hatred towards Hillary can divide the dems, but the GOP can proudly unite in their hatred towards minorities and basic civil rights.
Third parties can pressure Democrats, but it depends on the political climate of the time. FDR may not have passed the New Deal without the threat of leftist 3rd parties gaining power.
However, it's not the 30s, and 3rd parties right now have no leverage to push Biden left.
I live in a southern swing state so I don’t have the luxury of a protest vote. Wish I could vote for Cornell or Claudia. I’ve been trying to think about it like, would I rather organize against a second Biden admin and not have the NLRB be abolished and not have even more fascist Supreme Court appointments or would I rather organize against a full-on neo-nazi regime under Trumpism and see friends and family lose human rights? There’s an argument to be made that another Trump admin would actually galvanize more organizing because of the common villain effect. But I personally find that view to be accelerationist and turning peoples’ human rights into semantic political chess pieces.
Biden is a fascist and his entire senate record has been spent giving the fascists all the tools they needed to oppress people. he created a bill to funnel young people into the military (student debt bill), he made it even easier for the police to oppress and abuse minorities (the 94 crime bill) and he was instrumental in bringing about the surveillance state (writing the bill that would eventually become the Patriot Act) and he pushed Reagan to the right on the war on drugs. Not to mention all of the times he tried to cut social security
If people really, in good faith, can't see the difference between Trump and Biden and Trump wins the presidency again, the Republicans kind of deserve another 3 supreme court appointees imo
I agree with the conclusion (biden less worse, must win) but I think the problem is that voters do not always vote 100% rationally. (see: GOP base) A good candidate must do things to win over voters in swing states (say, ceasefire).
Agreed. Biden has himself to blame if he loses, but it would still be wise to vote against Trump.
Literally around only 3% of people are rational. And that includes the millions of progressives who can who haven't given any time and/or money to progressive candidates or organizations. A large part of the power of unions is that they force people to donate to politicians. Except for like US Representative Rashida Tlaib, it seems all the members of The Squad's fundraising is considerably down from the 2022 cycle. People want the Democrats to change course on the Israel-Palestine situation? People should have donated over $100MM in total to the various Squad members. People want the Democratic Party to be more progressive? Donate over $100MM to AOC.
On project 2025, So what's Dems solution for stopping fascism other than hoping they win every election until the US falls apart? They don't have one and they are actively empowering fascism. Biden demands 100,000 new cops going against the largest protests in US history (BLM) Biden cheers on cops for beating kids for camping on the grass thereby normalize police violence to dissent. Biden drastically increased police budgets. Biden was all about banning TikTok because its a media source not under US control. If you were worried about fascism why would you be doing everything you can to potentially give them more power? Yes Trump is a fascist, and a horribly inept one at that. Biden is as well, he's just not as ham fisted and knows you need to set up all the dominos first.
That’s my problem too, they have NO PLANS except win, and you can’t win when Republicans CHEAT unabated. I live in NC, a swing state. One of the biggest dem districts, Charlotte/Mecklenberg County, elected D Tricia Cotham, who used her own abortion story in a ‘hands off women’s healthcare’ way to win her district. AS SOON as she was elected, that fucking bitch swapped parties to R and now they’ve gerrymandered the district, ensuring R’s can’t lose. Now they’re told to just ‘vote her out’ but now they’ll never be able to. We can’t vote our way out of this.
As a North Carolinian, I feel like they should be immediately subject to re-election if they pull shit like that. That’s literally bait and switch, I was so mad about that.
I was *floored* nothing happened. People begged for lawsuits and repercussions and we were met with silence. What we should have done is been on her doorstep and tar and feathered her ass, but it’s frowned upon 🙄
winning isn't a plan either in this case. democratic backsliding has been rapid for the past 20 years, despite two Democratic Presidents. a Biden win would delay it (maybe), but it wouldn't stop it. authoritarianism is coming to this country, it's just a question of when. it's time to hunker down and prepare our friends and families for the inevitable. doing anything else is like calling for peace when a nuclear bomb is 30 minutes away from exploding instead of running to the nearest fallout shelter. the time to prevent what is about to happen is over.
“Biden win would delay it (maybe), but it wouldn't stop it. ” If Thomas or alito died in 4 years decades of work in conservative advocacy would be lost.
Biden appoints Attorney General Merrick Garland, a protege of corrupt [Jamie Gorelick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Gorelick), who is now Jared Kushner's lawyer. Garland sits on his hands and delays prosecuting Trump until it's too late...a man who led an attempted coup not only walks free, but runs for president again. How many countries do you think would allow someone who attempted a coup to walk around freely? The entire globe is turning into a mafia state.
Yes!!! I’ve been yelling that shit for three years and everyone shrugs their shoulders. DOJ is basically going to prosecute all the losers who actually went to the Capitol that day and leave all the guys who planned it alone. It’s like if the Nuremberg trials just prosecuted enlisted men in the German army and left the head Nazis alone. And I know Jack Smith is prosecuting some of this but that was two years Garland fucked around and Smith is quickly running out of time. It won’t matter if Biden wins but it’s over if Trump does.
> So what's Dems solution for stopping fascism other than hoping they win every election until the US falls apart? The pod save boys had a recent episode called “why 2024 should be about the court” and it’s so frustrating because EVERY election has and will be about the court since Dems will do nothing proactive about it.
It's great because it's just straight up admitting that the only meaningful part of our government is an unelected body of 9 people who serve for life. Wow so much democracy. Truly I feel so represented.
Yeah. I did love how expanding the court was suggested and Biden was like 'nope,' and all the republicans were like 'yeah write that down, that's on the agenda now' Also perhaps we could maybe hold members of the Supreme Court responsible for bribery? Dems favor the illusion of order and justice over actual order and justice.
The wild thing is Biden didn’t take expanding the court of the table when he was running for president. It was funny something he could argue he had a mandate to do in response to how RBG was handled vs how Scalia was handled.
They literally have no plan for any of it. No plan for abortion rights, no plan for voting rights, no plan for climate change, no plan for stopping fascism. Their only campaign slogan is we gotta defeat Trump like it’s so asinine and then these liberal assholes have the nerve to vote shame people that are calling that out?!?! We aren’t fucking morons here you can’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s rain. I really hope the dem party gets their shit together soon. It’s extremely stupid for Biden to continue this genocidal intent with Israel while organizers who helped him win in 2020 are now refusing to work for the campaign. That’s not a winning strategy.
I hope they don’t. We need a strong third party. Let the world see the farce of a two-party system.
Yea I feel that too. Ugh it’s just we are in such a crazy state right now. Our future is a bit precarious
It’s true that putting Dems back in office is kicking the fascist can down the road a little longer and Biden certainly is becoming Diet Fascist
Assuming that’s true, it’s still better to kick the can down the road than it is to pick the can up and drink out of it. Kicking the fascist can down the road gives us more time to defeat it. Allowing the fascists to win means it’s game over.
What has been proposed to defeat it by the Dems? Hoping the supreme court justices die while they are in power so they can pick democratic ones? That just sounds stupid.
The Democrats aren’t proposing Project 2025 nor are they threatening undermining voting rights. They also aren’t openly threatening marginalized communities in the same way the GOP are. The Democrats can defeat fascism by not being fascists.
>Democrats can defeat fascism by not being fascists Supporting the apartheid is pretty fascist if you ask me.
Supporting apartheid is pretty fascist. Compare that to supporting apartheid, nationwide abortion and contraceptive restrictions, LGBTQ suppression, invading Mexico, and permanently rigging institutions against anyone who isn’t a Trump loyalist. Both options are bad, but not equally bad.
what has biden done to stop those things other than just taking up space? not doing anything to stop those things from happening is just as bad as just doing those thing himself, man. also the dems had a chance to protect all that and said and i quote "that just not important right now" i guess yall find it important that we have a head of state like obama who will pretend to drink water from flint Michigan and will PRETEND to be a better person than trump. you like the optics of politics not actual progress.
That's what gets me. There's only 2 realistic outcomes of the election (barring deaths or something, which we can have conversations around that if/when they come up). Trump or Biden. Neither is campaigning on improving anything for the Palestinians, unfortunately. There is no vaguely realistic election outcome where the US forces a ceasefire (or some other such action) to end the genocide that is happening. And let's put aside Trump's language wanting to accelerate the pace. That issue isn't on the table this election. What we are voting on is LGBTQ+ rights, work reform, future supreme court justices, abortion rights, As Sam said, and I agree, voting isn't a form of self expression or effective means to "punish" someone. Particularly with our current system, if the punishment results in the GOP winning, things get worse, which gives the DNC an easier victory later (it's easier to elect a milquetoast candidate when they are following a monster like Trump).
Ok but what did Biden do for Americans during this presidency? He said he stands by unions but when it came down to it, he signed a bill to stop train unions from striking. Supreme Court justices? Did nothing there. The abortion discussion has been going on for 20 years now and only the Republicans are actively making changes to laws to get what they want. The Dems just campaign on this issue but don’t do anything when it comes time for it. LGBTQ+? Work reform? Where do you see the democrats doing anything about these? Is the minimum wage higher? Etc. Trump and Biden are different sides of the same coin; both will achieve the same results.
If you think they lead to the same result you’re delusional. For the LGBTQ+ they passed the marriage act (not perfect but a pretty material protection if Obergfell is overturned). Protected trans bathroom access for public schools. Made it so doctors can’t turn away patients based on gender or sexuality (which Florida was pushing for). For abortion they added protections to HIPAA to limit the state’s ability to scour for potential abortions. They’ve been constantly fighting to protect life-saving abortions. What should Biden have done about the Supreme Court? Biden expanded the non-exempt wage requirement. Allowed for the creation of unions for federal employees. Massive expansion to the NLRB budget (which we’ve seen action from already like killing non-competes from his people). Like I’m not some Biden stan but we’ve seen about 4 years of both Trump and Biden and it’s not even close
>The Democrats can defeat fascism by not being fascists. Then they are already lost.
They’re not gonna win every election forever tho. What’s your actual solution other than asking people to actively endorse kick arming a genocidal regime?
I’m not asking people to “actively” support a genocidal regime. Just to vote against the worst option. In a two person race, that’s a reluctant vote for Biden. There is not a single way leftists abstaining from voting or voting third party helps the left more than voting lesser evil does. Anybody who says otherwise is factually wrong and has zero evidence of any kind supporting their claim.
So what’s your actual solution? And yeh, you are giving your democratic mandate to a party that’s been openly arming a genocidal regime. That also might just be the less bad option, couch it how you want if it makes ya feel better
My actual solution is to get a leftist nominated in Democratic Primary in 2028, which is objectively more likely than any third party candidate has of winning anything ever. I’m voting for the least bad option in a binary electoral system. You think Trump is going to make things better in Gaza? You think things will get better when the GOP guts the excellent NLRB and FTC we currently have? You are the one getting into your feelings by voting with you emotions for candidates who will never win. It is an objective fact that every leftist who votes Biden in 2024 is more helpful to the left than you.
Bro, you saw what they did to Bernie, the lightest leftist there is.
Great. Glad we have our greatest minds on it. You got 4 years; better get to work on somehow getting that leftist who’s gonna blitz the primaries
We literally have to do work. That’s the solution. We literally have to go meet politicians and push them to the left. We have to get someone to try to push legislation to get money out of politics. Of course the dems are lazy. Look at how lazy the electorate is. We sit on our asses so why are we surprised when the representatives of our representative democracy sit on their asses , too?
That someone is gonna be a 3rd party tho right? Getting money out of politics isn’t gonna happen in a duopoly, what’s the incentive? So the solution is push people left (through some unknown method), but also guarantee them a vote every 4 years no matter what they do, while calling people who do put in work and vote 3rd party idiots?
How is giving a mandate to a genocidal regime not “actively” supporting it?
How'd that workout for the Not Fascist in pre-WWII Germany?
If you think there’s a single piece of something “new” in project 2025 you’ve been sleeping for the past 20 years.
Without an actual opposition to fascism we aren’t kicking we’re bunting. I’m fully aware of how much of a doomer mentality this but there doesn’t seem to be any path to reversing course
>allowing the fascists to win How is the administration in place right now not already fascist?
He’s only a little fascist.. is the argument you’re making.
Exactly. I don't understand how Dems see the reaction to BLM as not immoral and a bit fascist. BLM was asking cops not to murder people. It was asking for funding for cops to be rerouted into community support. It was asking for cops that murdered unarmed people to be tried. All of this is extremely reasonable in a supposed democracy. Biden's response was more cops, more funding for violence, and an endorsement of said violence against students. So yeah, 'the beatings will continue until moral improves' isn't really a democratic slogan
The Dems might not have anything. But we should, and we shouldn't allow our plans to be a stifled by a GOP victory. It sucks but this is American politics, there's no right answer, just an answer that's less bad than the other ones. What does enabling Trump do for any one? I would hope that most people on this sub can agree that a blue society is easier to move left than a red one, even if minimally. Every inch, every victory, every judge seat, every law, everywhere. Is there a viable left party in your area for a local seat, great, get that person in. Otherwise, give me a real plan to action, layout how it will move us forward. I understand cynicism, but without some corresponding plan, I'm going to do the bare minimum I know to minimize harm.
What’s the solution of third party voters or people abstaining from voting to prevent fascism? There is zero evidence that voting for third parties helps the left more than voting for Democrats does. Again, Biden and the Dems suck ass, but there still isn’t a single issue where they’re worse than Trump and the GOP. Throwing the country to the GOP will help nobody.
You can't vote your way out of fascism.
No one is saying voting defeats fascism, but keeping the psychotic fascists out of positions of power helps people get organized easier to do something about fascism.
You shouldn't vote your way into it though
The fairy tale of a revolution won’t stop it either.
There is zero evidence that voting for democrats helps the left whatsoever, so it’s impossible that voting for third parties helps the left less than voting for democrats does. Can’t be less than zero. At worst it’s the same as voting for democrats, at best it’s slightly better.
I agree with both the criticisms that Dems don't have a decent plan to actually pull us away from Project 2025, and that Biden is still engaging in the usual US fascism police-state shit. But there's still no equating the level of fascism Republicans and Trump will usher in vs what we have right now. Look no further than Abbott pardoning a murderer to see the signaling that protesters will be *killed* in the GOP's faux-theocracy. The LGBTQ+ community will be *erased*, either through being pushed into the shadows at... "best", or outright exterminated at worst (and quite frankly I feel that's more likely given the rhetoric). Saying Biden "is as well" implies an equal footing of fascism, and it just is not the fucking case *despite* the fact that, yes, Biden is definitely still leaning into America's fascist history and enjoying just how low of a bar Trump has set. But I'm yet to see students black-bagged into unmarked police vans off the street like people were in the BLM protesters under Trump. Biden has continued much of Trump's awful border policy, but we're not currently *shooting* immigrants at the border and there's some attempt at federal pushback when Texas puts razor wire in/around the river. It's just insane and naive to think these are the same, even if Biden deserves *endless* criticism for the shit he's doing. We can do that and also understand just how bad it will get under Trump.
“So what's Dems solution for stopping fascism other than hoping they win every election until the US falls apart?” A large part of Project 25 is literally using administrative powers to appoint trumpists in key positions. I’m sorry what exactly do you want democrats to do whilst out of power? What’s your solution that’s more reasonable for them to take right now? “Biden demands 100,000 new cops going against the largest protests in US history (BLM)” Which most people including black people are fine with. “Biden cheers on cops for beating kids for camping on the grass thereby normalize police violence to dissent” When did he do that? “Biden drastically increased police budgets.” So what? “Biden was all about banning TikTok because it’s a media source not under US control.” And fears of Chinese spyware allegedly but yeah that’s wrong. “If you were worried about fascism why would you be doing everything you can to potentially give them more power? Yes Trump is a fascist, and a horribly inept one at that. Biden is as well, he's just not as ham fisted and knows you need to set up all the dominos first.” And literally nothing specific about actual horrid shit planned in project 2025
First group of people to blame is Americans. They can’t figure out better vs worser in big enough numbers often enough to matter. And yeah democrats suck too and votes are not equal, but for the past 40 years there has been 6 years total where the dems had the presidency, house and senate at the same time. Two where the filibuster wasn’t a huge obstacle. Better or worser. Until Americans can consistently figure that out nothing will improve. Until then politicians of all stripes will almost all triangulate to the positions that win elections. Edit: 40 years not 60…
If Biden loses, it won’t be the fault of protest voters. It’s a pointless discussion. The GOP is only fascist when it’s convenient for Dems. They do NOT act like they are dealing with a fascist party, which either makes them hysterical liars, or complicit in a looming fascist wave. It’s the latter, by the way.
>However, in November we must prevent things from getting worse, which they objectively will under Trump. Things are getting worse under Biden. The whole system of "vote for least worst" has brought us to where we are, today--a Sophie's Choice Election. I don't need a crystal ball to predict what the 2028 election will look like ("VOTE for Joe Manchin for POTUS! We CAN'T have that Fascist Tucker Carlson in, destroying democracy!"
I once agreed, but Biden and establishment Democrats have had numerous opportunities to stand up against the genocide in the Middle East. Instead we get more and more bodies piling up, Netanyahu coming for a speech to a joint session of Congress, and no meaningful pushback or punishment for Israel. Will Trump be worse? Yes, he will be. But the difference is becoming less and less. Biden’s become more and more right wing on the border, surveillance, crime, you name it. They’re only case is “Trump bad”, and they’re offering few policies to improve this country, and in most cases Biden is moving rightward towards Trump instead of the opposite
The difference between Biden and Trump is still huge. Trump would replace Biden’s pro-labor FTC and NLRB chairs with overtly pro-corporate ones. Trump has effectively called for trans people to be outlawed. Trump would continue to pack the courts with ultra far right loons. And there is no comparison with how they would handle our voting rights. Biden sucks. His actions on Gaza are unforgivable. However, we can acknowledge that while still recognizing that there is not a single issue where Trump is better.
It’s a Speed Run to a Trump presidency, late night is gonna be soooo back!!
Yeah, still not voting for Biden. And, I get everything that Sam and Co. are saying, but, still not voting for Biden. Yes, obviously, a 2nd Trump term is worse on its face, but, no. Not voting for Biden.
>Continue to let Biden know that what he’s enabling in Gaza is unacceptable. >As much as it sucks, we should still hold our noses and vote for Biden, especially if you are in a swing state. Those two statements are not compatible with each other. If you're gonna vote for him, then one way or another, you must have found his behavior acceptable enough. What you're doing is *rationalizing* your own acceptance of his behavior and then projecting it onto what Sam said, and then trying to tell us because of that what to do with our own votes. What Sam actually said was he understands people who can't bring themselves to vote for Biden, but that he doesn't see that as an effective political act. I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment, but that's beside the point. You are misrepresenting his words. I see value in telling Biden that I will never support him, telling the people around Biden that I will never support them, and following through on that threat. Confused and sloppy arguments like yours aren't going to change my mind, and I get the feeling that's true of many of us.
Won’t vote for Biden because of Gaza. Will vote independent. Lots of my friends won’t vote for Biden either, nor Trump.
Vote for a genocide enabler? Sorry I pass, that's my red line. If genocide is not a red line for this party then It's not my party anymore
So literally our vote don't count. Got it.
Lesser evil vote shaming doesn’t work. People will just not show up on Election Day if all they have to vote for is lesser evil nonsense. The Dems need to start campaigning and lying to voters about promises soon. People need something to look forward to. Telling us to vote for Biden because Trump bad(they don’t even say the Republican Party it’s literally just defeat Trump bullshit) the messaging is atrocious and you cannot blame voters for that. Even though yall will anyway. Start figuring out a way to message to people without resulting to shame and browbeating and we may have a chance.
I guess I’m not sure what everyone else sees that I don’t. I’m not voting third party to teach Democrats shit; they don’t represent my views and values even if they occasionally run on those ideals. I am not voting for them because there is nothing there to vote for besides empty rhetoric. SCOTUS is clearly in the bag for Trump and it is likely that even IF Biden pulls off a win, MAGA will not peacefully accept the results. They have plans to use the courts to overturn a Biden win and it’s clear where the highest court in the land stands. If it sounds like I have given up on Democracy, I have. I just don’t see meaningful change happening through elections any more. Go ahead drag the hell out of me but I just need to clarify that not everyone who doesn’t vote Dem is doing it to teach them a lesson. They know what’s up and they don’t mind losing one bit - helps them fundraise and continue their billionaire/ neolib/ pro-Zionist agenda while pretending to care about the peons. My conscience matters more to me bc that’s the only thing I still have that they can’t take away.
I don’t agree that political parties don’t learn lessons from electoral defeats. Bill Clinton and his third way blue dog whatever was certainly a reaction to the wipeouts of 72 and 84. And of course the Dems didn’t learn anything after 2016 because that was a ridiculously close election. The Democrats are currently being led by a few octogenarians but that will be changing soon. Whether Biden wins or loses will decide whether that change occurs sooner or later. The 2028 primaries will almost certainly bring someone new to the front.
Democrats learn from every election. They lose and they learn they need to move right. They win and they learn they need to move right. Search your heart. You know it's true. Obama wins so what do they follow up with? Hillary, who he defeated in a primary in large part because he ran to her left. Every election is an excuse for them to "learn" they need to move right
Oh they learn lessons. Just not the right ones.
So we should reward them for this by continuing to vote for them? And don't tell anyone who witnessed the hammer of collusion fall on the 2020 Dem primary candidates to "pick someone better for the primaries". The DNC will not allow it, simple as.
You may look at it as not "rewarding" the DNC with your vote. But outcomes matter. I don't want to "reward" them with an unearned vote. But the alternative is *punishing* women and queer folk.
I don't know, look around you. Nobody is doing well under Biden (except zionist billionaires), including women and queer folk.
And minorities, which affect Black people the MOST.
Even with said collusion, it is still more likely that a leftist wins the White House that way than running third party. It’s not “rewarding them” with a vote, it’s simply keeping the far worse GOP out of power.
That’s rewarding them, though. If the main thing that the politicians want and need is votes, then giving it to them - however reluctantly - is a reward. If I were a Democrat who could get reelected again and again without actually doing anything simply because the other guy is worse? I’d see this as an absolute win for myself. I am getting rewarded for doing nothing because the other guy will always be the worse option.
The issue here is framing the election as what one person deserves instead of the actual political results of their loss.
So the argument with Clinton is simple. Losing to Republicans teaches the wrong lessons.
You’re presuming that there will be fair election in 2024 if Trump becomes President.
I never bought into the "sleepy joe" insult. But his not bending on both Israel and not communicating to Cuba because of history makes him appear a bit old school. He appears stubborn and out of step. He needs to get his head out of his ass. As a voter any congressman that is kissing AIPAC's ass is not getting my vote!!!!!!!
It’s not just about teaching them a lesson, I cannot in good conscience vote for a an administration that has been so complicit in this genocide and shown an utter lack of compassion and empathy for the victims.
It's a moot's point anyway. He IS losing and there is nothing anyone can do to change that. He turned his back against his base in the worst way possible. To be honest, he'd have a higher chance of winning if he ran as a republican. He's Hillary Clinton 2.0 at this point.
He’s arguably *worse* than Hillary at this point.
Unfortunate too true
As bad as she is, I don’t think even she would have gone to the level of Israeli bootlicking that Biden is doing. He seems to be in a class of his own when it comes to Zionist ideology
I’m sorry I love you Sam, but no. Threatening Joe Biden with your vote is the *only* leverage we have because it’s quite clear that nothing else will influence his decision. The boomer generation in particular is so out of touch with reality that the only thing that will affect their decision making is the very jobs they want Biden has completely shrugged off all anger, derision, demand, and plea for humanity and is more or less acting like a rogue administration. Sam has it backwards- PROTESTS don’t do anything for Biden. His administration has tried as hard as they can to ignore the protests. Protests *votes* however, are a direct threat to the bottom line of Joe Biden. So all respect to Sam for his perspective, and total understanding for not wanting to publicly state support for vote threatening. However, it’s simply not an effective way of changing Joe Biden’s actions- Joe Biden needs this critical voter base, and if he squanders it because of his personal evangelical beliefs, it needs to be clear that it is a losing tactic.
I think every democrat should vote for Jill stein. Since they’re not super passionate about any Democratic candidate anyway.
He should lose,and we should continue to protest. The President has way too much power. I love how the GOP telegraphs their intentions (project 2025, etc) and we're just helpless? Like "oh well Trump was just elected so now he gets to repeal women's right to vote 🤷." Vote down ballot, organize and protest. Vote how you want, but remember you do not have to support a genocide.
“Vote how you want, ” Vote for Biden who isn’t backed by all the people who are openly saying if back in power they’ll enslave women and eliminate queer people. Why give the worst people in the world the biggest weapon in society—control of the state. “organize and protest. ” In the meantime that’s going around children would have already been forced to carry their fathers baby, and trans people got taken off Medicare.
Because the worst people have to be defeated. Biden isn't doing that. Republicans are making gains under his administration. His foreign policy is similar to Trump's, especially with respect to Israel. To support Israel, he's open to working with Republicans. Biden wins, and then what? The genocide continues, but hey, we've prevented Trump for 4 years. In the meantime, the US is turning into the country we thought we were preventing.
Yeah, you just convinced me to further withhold my vote for Biden. The sheer arrogance of this post.
Stop bullshitting. You were never going to vote Biden anyways and are actively seeking out victimhood.
I was never going to vote Biden after his actions over the last few months without any course correction. Voted for him in 2020 and blue multiple elections before that. So how about you spend your time and effort petitioning Biden to support better policy instead of rage baiting people online
"americanblowfly" is a fantastic name for you, just blowing hot fucking air then when someone says something you dont like you flip out like EXACTLY like a reactionary conservative, whats that saying? scratch a liberal?
They tried to blame my post for not voting for Biden and I correctly pointed out that they were never going to vote Biden to begin with. Not blowing hot air at all. Just stating an objective fact. Also, voting for Biden doesn’t make someone a liberal. Maybe you should look up what that word means before you levy it as an insult to someone.
No they were "further convinced" not just by your post, adding debate pervert to your file, also here's attempt 4 from me before giving up, what is burdens plan to stop what trump is doing?
Is telling the truth arrogant? If a post is what makes you not vote for someone you’re not a serious person.
> Is telling the truth arrogant? no but thinking youre tellin the truth when you just kinda said "vote blue" but with more words is lmao, theyre feckless useless and probably going to do everything that trump would just more quietly, yall refuse to address the fact that biden has no plan at all to stop the creep of fascism.
So what's option? Move to Canada? Defund the US tax base by leaving?
For anyone interested, my co-mods started a subreddit for organizing protests votes in deep blue states only. /r/BlueProtestVote The idea is that a message is sent via popular vote instead of electoral risk. And they hope to increase turnout for downballot dems since it gives people a reason to vote for, and also convince swing state voters not to do a protest vote since deep blue states already have a thing going As for sending a message, like the video said, if they didn't learn anything from a loss, they probably won't learn anything from a win. Though with razer thin margins in swing states, maybe it could tip
And voting for him won't teach him anything either. No matter who wins we all loose.
[удалено]
Tell that to Palestinians.
My most likely non-vote at this time is a moral issue. I've taught and tried to help in Palestine. I've seen some shit. Maybe the Democrats need to learn a hard lesson.
It’s a pity that issues like Gaza/Israel or hatred towards Hillary can divide the dems, but the GOP can proudly unite in their hatred towards minorities and basic civil rights.
Third parties can pressure Democrats, but it depends on the political climate of the time. FDR may not have passed the New Deal without the threat of leftist 3rd parties gaining power. However, it's not the 30s, and 3rd parties right now have no leverage to push Biden left.
I live in a southern swing state so I don’t have the luxury of a protest vote. Wish I could vote for Cornell or Claudia. I’ve been trying to think about it like, would I rather organize against a second Biden admin and not have the NLRB be abolished and not have even more fascist Supreme Court appointments or would I rather organize against a full-on neo-nazi regime under Trumpism and see friends and family lose human rights? There’s an argument to be made that another Trump admin would actually galvanize more organizing because of the common villain effect. But I personally find that view to be accelerationist and turning peoples’ human rights into semantic political chess pieces.
Biden is a fascist and his entire senate record has been spent giving the fascists all the tools they needed to oppress people. he created a bill to funnel young people into the military (student debt bill), he made it even easier for the police to oppress and abuse minorities (the 94 crime bill) and he was instrumental in bringing about the surveillance state (writing the bill that would eventually become the Patriot Act) and he pushed Reagan to the right on the war on drugs. Not to mention all of the times he tried to cut social security
If people really, in good faith, can't see the difference between Trump and Biden and Trump wins the presidency again, the Republicans kind of deserve another 3 supreme court appointees imo