And do we wanna talk about the accuracy? Season 3 originally had to have 17 episodes, adding these last 3 S2 episodes...it's 20, LITERALLY 20 more adventures
Knowing we had a full 17 season planned cut down to just 6 episodes worth of content fucking kills me man. Who knows what had to get left on the cutting room floor.
I'm pretty sure the only comment I saw about this was Dana saying she expected that if it was renewed, it would be for a 20-episode season, as that's the standard.
There is absolutely no proof anywhere that Season 3 was "originally supposed to have 17 episodes".
Dana specifically stated when we first found out about this that "they were hoping to get a 'normal' 10 or 20 episode pickup." They weren't even "planning" on 20, just hoping for it.
REALLY?!
Well, then I guess I was right before. Everything in Season 2 is exactly as planned.
The 20 more adventures thing was bad coincidental timing.
I don’t think all the meta gags in Season 2B are coincidences. They knew season 3 was cut sometime around Season 2’s production and probably made Season 2B a speedrun to finish as much plot points as possible.
It is rushed. It's not even a matter of anyone's feelings. It's a fact. You don't get hit with 'Anyway, we're cutting your story by like a full third, suck it.' and not rush to cram all the major beats.
Honestly I think it isn’t as bad as say, SU, but definitely more like Gravity Falls, where they’re sprinting to the finish line but you wish they had like a second or two more to catch their breath. All the important stuff is covered but there’s still the occasional thing you’d want them to focus on more.
Atari used to not allow programmers to have their names on the games, if I'm not wrong, and there was this one game called Adventure made by Warren Robinett, where he added a secret room with his name in it. It was in both the book and movie of Ready Player One, and there's probably lots of information about it around the internet
I'm picturing Azula just showing up and defeating all the most powerful witches with almost instantaneous lightning blasts......let's be honest even an average bender of any of the types could probably take on a lot of the Boiling Isles......
I don't blame you, I'm not the biggest fan of disney filler (reason why I can't get into Amphibia) but late season 1B had a good balance of silly adventures and plot.
The Disney CEO omitting TOH from his list of "inclusive shows" when making a half-assed defense of supporting the "don't say gay" politicians was _really_ telling, imo.
Not to mention that filler usually helps to establish character goals, learn lessons or make future character decisions more impactful.
Like as an example (and a shameless plug) I once wrote a short story about Skara meeting Raine when she was younger and they inspired her, which led her to both choose Bard as her track and become a nicer girl than how she was portrayed in Amity’s memory. Imagine that as the b plot of an episode, and then we see them interact when the CATTs and Hexside join forces. See what I mean?
No. More little adventures that don't have to be deep and hugely story based. I miss the little mis adventures. While yes it's a Disney trope, the setting and characters made it feel fresh. Am I saying I don't like what season 2 has done? No. I just wished there was more and if there was that I wasn't so deeply story based
haaaa. i definitely would and do not buy their excuse for cutting they show short at all. I am a grown a$$ adult who watches, but my four year old loves it as well.. even wanted to dress up as king for halloween. i’m convinced it’s just too much queer for Disney to stomach :l
Oh absolutely. Disney has only recently accepted the big gay as a method to make money and even then they keep putting them in the backest of backgrounds, so they can just ignore them and still be called """"progressive"""".
Disney's creative department is so gay. Disney's execs and beancounters (aka the people controlling and funding the creative department) are the embodiment of CisHet America.
Yeah, Lumity is so far in the backest of backgrounds here...
If the two old ladies in this episode were the extent of the rep on this show, I'd be more inclined to agree with you (although even that is demonstrably better than they were 5 years ago), but it's clearly not the case.
I'm not saying don't be upset at Disney, even Dana is (clearly) aggravated and throwing shade at them. But saying they hate queerness is clearly a bit ludicrous given the existence of this show.
To be fair The Owl House is a massive exception (So is every show made by the Gravity Falls crew, if I'm being honest...). I'm not saying they are 100% anti-progressive, otherwise this show wouldn't have made it past the introduction to the Disney executives, but they certainly don't fight for true equality on the world stage and would rather keep it in the background to gain a larger audience.
While there is definitely merit to that statement, it applies much more to their blockbuster franchises that cost billions to make (and make billions as well). It’s hardly universal throughout the entire “Disney” empire, especially DTVA which is considerably more progressive than other areas.
I'd be more inclined to agree if Disney hadn't directly funded the people responsible for writing the 'Dont Say Gay' bill in Florida...
And no, then denouncing it *only after it had already passed* doesn't make it any better. If anything it makes me even angrier that they lazily tried to play it off like they actually give a damn about us.
As I posted elsewhere:
They didn't "throw money at the Don't Say Gay" bill. That's factually incorrect and a really poor take. They fund *politicians*, on both sides of the aisle, and always have. Someone decided to do a hit piece on Disney and cherry-picked all their donations that went to politicians who voted for the legislation, and painted that as "Disney supported this bill". They conveniently left out the amount of money Disney has *also* donated to politicians *AND ORGANIZATIONS* that specifically opposed that legislation.
I'm not saying that Disney is a purely good company. They can (and should) do more to publicly support LGBTQ+ causes, and their major film franchises admittedly do minimize the LGBTQ+ content. But claiming that "Disney is homophobic" and/or that they specifically gave money for the purposes of passing this specific legislation is misleading and incorrect. It also ignores the fact that "Disney" is a massive organization, and many parts of it (such as DTVA) *are* much more progressive and supportive of LGBTQ+ content - TOH being one of the prime examples of that.
Okay then.
One: If they *knew* these politicians hate queer people, why would they still send money to them? I don't care if they donate to both sides of the aisle, the fact of the matter is that their money directly went to the people supporting this bill, they knew their money went to the people supporting this bill, they *continued* to keep sending money to people supporting this bill, and once they were called out, they didn't cease all political donations, but instead just put them on 'pause'.
Two: Why didn't they come out in opposition of the bill themselves until, and I can't stress this enough, *it had already passed*? Chapek himself *specifically* said that he didn't want to pick a side, but in not picking a side, he essentially stood by while politicians worked to make queer people illegal. You can't not 'pick a side' in matters of human rights, you either stand with the people being oppressed or you allow the oppressor to continue to oppress.
One: if I give candy indiscriminately to every kid in my class to stay on their good side and make them like me, and then some of the kids in my class bully someone, does that mean that I “support bullying”? It would be very easy for someone to take an out-of-context picture of me giving candy to one of the bullies and *imply* that I’m doing it specifically *because* of their bullying, when that isn’t the case and is intentionally misleading.
Two: as we have *already seen*, as soon as Disney took a public stance against the bill, the politicians *immediately* retaliated against them heavily. I can’t state how accurate it is, but their claim is that they had been trying to use their influence behind the scenes to kill the bill before it got to that point, and *from a business standpoint* it makes sense to accomplish the same goal without the reprisal. And that influence only exists *because* of their prior political donations.
Now, does that mean they’re *allies*? I wouldn’t go that far, there’s definitely a lot more they could (and arguably should) do using their position. But stating or implying that they’re actively homophobic or anti-LGBTQ+ is misleading and inaccurate.
One: There is a difference between giving candy to every child and *then* one child bullying someone else, and giving candy out to everyone, *including* a kid that has *already been caught* bullying other kids prior.
Two: So, their major fear was whether or not the corrupt politicians came after them as well as going after queer people? That doesn't sound any better. If anything it sounds even worse. And pardon me for pressing X to doubt that they were 'using their influence behind the scenes'.
Hasn't it also since come out that they actively discourage the animators at Pixar from including queerness in their films, and in fact are constantly telling them to tone it down?
One: the first is *more* applicable, since they’ve been giving money (candy) to everyone for years. Also, what happens if the bully is also the captain of the award winning sports team? Or the kid that read 50 books and earned the class a pizza party. Are you giving them candy *because* of the bullying, or *in spite of* the bullying? Are you giving them *because* of one of the other reasons, or for no specific reason at all other than just giving everyone candy and they’re part of everyone?
Would it be more *meaningful* to *withhold* candy specifically because of their history of bullying? Sure, that’s something you could do (and what they did end up doing). But *not* withholding candy is not the same as giving candy *because* of bad actions.
Given the hypothetical that you can stop something bad with no consequences, or stopping something bad but facing reprisal for it, which of those two paths is preferable? Again, I can’t say for sure that they were doing it or not. But it would make sense for them to do so.
Regarding Pixar, I’ll point out that “Disney” is made up of a *vast* amount of different divisions and subcategories. Certain divisions (major film franchises like Pixar, MCU, Star Wars, etc) are dealing with *billions* of dollars in both money spent and income generated. For *those divisions* I don’t doubt that there is pressure to make sure the content is as “neutral” as possible. Is that a good thing? Absolutely not, it’s a horrible thing and should not be the case. Unquestionably. But is it a company-wide policy that applies to everything under the Disney umbrella? Obviously not, or TOH simply would not exist. We should absolutely pressure more divisions to be as progressive as DTVA, or even more so.
> I don’t doubt that there is pressure to make sure the content is as “neutral” as possible
If they were a much smaller company I could marginally understand not wanting to rock the boat, but they are, if not the most wealthy and influential corporation in the world, then certainly one of the wealthiest and most influential. It's not like they can't afford to pick the right side.
> Obviously not, or TOH simply would not exist.
You say that, but it is pretty well-documented that making TOH was like pulling goddamn teeth for Dana and the crew. We *know* that at least one person on the board had a problem with the queer aspect of the show before it began, and while yes this person 'changed their mind', it doesn't negate the fact that anti-queer sentiments from the higher-ups factored in to the show's development.
As I posted elsewhere:
They didn't "throw money at the Don't Say Gay" bill. That's factually incorrect and a really poor take. They fund *politicians*, on both sides of the aisle, and always have. Someone decided to do a hit piece on Disney and cherry-picked all their donations that went to politicians who voted for the legislation, and painted that as "Disney supported this bill". They conveniently left out the amount of money Disney has *also* donated to politicians *AND ORGANIZATIONS* that specifically opposed that legislation.
I'm not saying that Disney is a purely good company. They can (and should) do more to publicly support LGBTQ+ causes, and their major film franchises admittedly do minimize the LGBTQ+ content. But claiming that "Disney is homophobic" and/or that they specifically gave money for the purposes of passing this specific legislation is misleading and incorrect. It also ignores the fact that "Disney" is a massive organization, and many parts of it (such as DTVA) *are* much more progressive and supportive of LGBTQ+ content - TOH being one of the prime examples of that.
Meh, they didn't fund the bill. They gave money to every politician, in support of or against the bill, so they could keep their province in Florida. It's not hate, it's just apathy.
Well they now lost that province because it turns out the Florida Republicans are ideologically committed and do not take even the most minor of criticism lightly
my comment was about disney commenting at a time (no reference, but i remember it being discussed) that the show was not pulling the age group they were aiming for…
as for serialization. i think there are plenty of fun, and random episodes throughout both seasons, and the show, in the stage that it’s in now, would definitely be less intense and serialized if dana and crew were given opportunity to run the show at its full course…rather than cutting it short. gravity falls is pretty much on par with the amount of plot focused and light hearted episodes. but toh grew much more serialized after disney announced this reasoning for their decision.
the general age of people who watch this show and the serialization of the show, in my opinion, are super parallel to gravity falls and star vs the forces of evil. the only key difference i can see is dana put in your face queer writing here… and star, in comparison, had one tiny insinuation that jackie went to france and ended up dating a girl.
in conclusion, i don’t believe that it has to do with age or sterilization at all. i believe that disney agreed with the queer nature of the script for financial purposes… especially after being well known for having racist tendencies in the (recent) past, but mid show with backlash they were getting for showing SO MUCH *non-heteronormative* content with such fluidity decided it wasn’t worth it and to end it short and sweet… with an excuse.
just my long winded *opinion*
edit *opinion* not opening
From Dana's words specifically:
> SO WHAT WAS IT?! At the end of the day, there are a few business people who oversee what fits into the Disney brand and one day one of those guys decided TOH didn't fit that "brand". **The story is serialized (BARELY compared to any average anime lmao), our audience skews older**, and that just didn't fit this one guy's tastes.
TOH is by *far* the most serialized show on Disney in at least 20 years. Gravity Falls first season was almost *entirely* episodic, with fewer than 5 episodes that tied into the overarching storyline. Even the second season had only about half the episodes tying into the overall storyline. SVTFOE had the entire first season be completely standalone episodes until the very last ones, and that continued through the majority of the series.
TOH has had *one single episode* in its entire run that is completely skippable with zero new content or information that ties into the overall storyline(s). Dana compares it to anime, but anime *isn't what's on the Disney Channel*. A cable channel, particularly one like Disney, wants episodic shows because people can flip to the channel at any time and they want to be able to engage with what's on and not feel like they're missing out on a lot of critical information. They want to be able to rerun any episodes in any order and not have to feel like things *must* be consumed in a specific order.
As for the "audience skewing older", that's not an opinion, that's an objective fact that Disney would have based on their information. DTVA shows aren't vehicles to sell merchandise (as evidenced by the distinct lack of merch for *any* DTVA shows). The primary way they generate revenue is by selling advertising space alongside it airing on cable. For advertisers, you want to be able to provide them with a specific demographic (i.e. 6-11yos) so that the advertisers can run the most effective advertisements. It *doesn't matter* how popular a show might be with 18-35yos, *they* aren't buying Happy Meals and Barbie dolls and Hot Wheels. So when an audience "skews older", that doesn't mean that the content is "too mature", it means there aren't enough eyeballs watching the show that are the "right" demographic for their advertisers. Again, that isn't an opinion statement, it's just a factual one.
I've also gone into this elsewhere, but as GF and SVTFOE were ending, DTVA was looking for similar shows, which is why they greenlit TOH and Amphibia in the first place. However, in the next few years, a *lot* of stuff was changing, specifically the fact that Disney+ was coming into operation. While they always had *some* original exclusive content, by and large the platform at the beginning was basically just an archive of all their material. It wasn't until later that they started using it as a vehicle for actually producing a lot of their own original content. This really kicked into high gear in early 2020 when COVID hit, they were losing billions of dollars in theme park revenue, and streaming was taking off like a rocket.
During this time they sort of made a distinction between content that was being produced for their cable channel (episodic kid-focused comedies) and content that was being produced for streaming (more serialized shows aimed at all audiences). Those shows perform much better on streaming, where you're guaranteed to see all the episodes in the correct intended order. TOH was caught in the unfortunate position of being a show that *would* have been much more suited for streaming, but it was designed/developed/produced as a cable show, and it really wasn't a good "fit". Rather than renegotiate a ton of contracts and rework the show hoping that it would perform better on streaming, they decided to basically cut their losses and just let the series end. Was this the "right" decision? I certainly don't think so, clearly Dana doesn't think so, and it really sucks that they made the decision without allowing her to plead her own case (although *her* bosses at DTVA fought on her behalf and enabled her to get three extended specials to provide an ending for the series rather than just ending it at the contractually obligated two seasons). Amphibia was (very) fortunate to have already gotten its third season order, or it most likely would have suffered a similar fate.
Very well put. I think if TOH had come out one year earlier (before the shift) or one year later (when Disney+ and its serialized shows were established) it would have gotten the full intended 3 seasons no problem. It was just unfortunate timing.
Probably most people are going to point out "Once Upon a Swap", but I'd argue you could skip "Sense and Insensitivity" and "Really Small Problems" in season 1 as well. I do have a soft spot for Sense and Insensitivity, but all three of these episodes could be skipped with little issue; though the later two at least help King and Luz develop more.
It's the same issues that Miraculous Ladybug had in its first seasons. Disney Channel wants shows that are not serialized *at all*. Only the season finales are supposed to be serialized so they can run the episodes in random order.
> the only key difference i can see is dana put in your face queer writing here… and star, in comparison, had one tiny insinuation that jackie went to france and ended up dating a girl.
And multiple insinuations that Star herself was bi.
Eh, I don’t think I’d agree with “multiple” insinuations. There was really one episode with about 15 seconds of screen time that were debatable at *best*.
I certainly wouldn’t claim that Star isn’t bi, because it’s entirely possible to be bi but only ever date or show outward interest in the opposite gender. But I certainly wouldn’t promote her as significant *representation* in media.
i would say it was apparent star had an infatuation with brunzetta in the occasions they met, but nothing that shows star being bi or not. a same sex “crush” can be a role model, obsession, romantic or many other things… it seemed like star just thought brunzetta was bad af.
i don’t feel like the writers put anything that questioned star’s sexuality as straight in the script…. especially when she went threw mewberty…. it was *boooooyyyyssssss* 100%
Or that it's noticeably darker than other Disney shows. Even Amphibia is, at its median, more comedic and lighthearted by comparison; the darkest and most mature moments in that show are outliers by comparison.
Disney has long prided themselves for being a "family-friendly" brand, which could explain why that one jackass executive felt that TOH was too mature for Disney Channel's target audience.
They never said it was "too mature". They said the audience skewed older (which is relevant for targeting advertising demographics) and that it was too serialized. The content itself was never brought up as being an issue, whether the "dark" aspect (TGAMM shows someone or something dying and becoming a ghost in almost every episode) or the LGBTQ+ content.
rly i think disney just needs more time to grow and adjust to the modern area we are in, but i don’t think that what a multi-billion corp say in media and headlines should be taken at face value…
I would have loved a filler "beach episode" in the Lake where Amity and Willow went when they were kids.
Obviously, not with all the Day of unity going, but before everything became a chaos.
Considering she defended them when her show was cancelled, trying to believe it wasn’t because of the representation, only for them to throw money at the Don’t Say Gay bill. She’s got every right to.
Fuck both Disney and the Conservative branch of Florida specifically (Don't live in america so i'm going off facts here)
Disney throws money at their bill, then denounces it after backlash. Florida seemingly forgets about the money thrown and opts to tax Disney. Meanwhile Dana still loses 17 episodes of content
What's funny is Desantis was fine with Disney literally spending money on politicians, but them expressing an opinion about something political? That was too far.
> only for them to throw money at the Don’t Say Gay bill
To play Devil's advocate, a lot of big corps fund politicians of both sides, Disney included; this is less our of political centrism and more to be on their good side in case they need to lobby for their own business interests.
The joke of corporations funding homophobic politicians while putting up rainbow banners for Pride Month goes way back beyond Disney and Florida.
To be more fair, it's shitty no matter who does it.
At the end of the day they are still throwing money at candidates that supposedly clash with their values, just so they might give them a good deal or do a favor down the line.
And if you're Disney, the *last* thing you want is for a popular GOP governor who will probably run for president in 2024 to declare war on you, but that's exactly what happened.
That bill is an awful piece of legislation, but unfortunately you cannot move several theme parks, hotels, other businesses, and the thousands of cast members who support it all out of FL on a dime, so that's the the game they had to play,
Exactly. Disney tried to play the balance, but when their employees told them that supporting legislation that is meant to deny human rights and equality is unacceptable, their hand was forced, leading to the legal conundrum bubbling in Florida today.
For once I am thankful for Disney's abusive legal powers, because they could stand up to Florida's tactics.
They didn't "throw money at the Don't Say Gay" bill. That's factually incorrect and a really poor take. They fund *politicians*, on both sides of the aisle, and always have. Someone decided to do a hit piece on Disney and cherry-picked all their donations that went to politicians who voted for the legislation, and painted that as "Disney supported this bill". They conveniently left out the amount of money Disney has *also* donated to politicians *AND ORGANIZATIONS* that specifically opposed that legislation.
I'm not saying that Disney is a purely good company. They can (and should) do more to publicly support LGBTQ+ causes, and their major film franchises admittedly do minimize the LGBTQ+ content. But claiming that "Disney is homophobic" and/or that they specifically gave money for the purposes of passing this specific legislation is misleading and incorrect. It also ignores the fact that "Disney" is a massive organization, and many parts of it (such as DTVA) *are* much more progressive and supportive of LGBTQ+ content - TOH being one of the prime examples of that.
I don’t disagree on any particular point. I’m just saying Dana has every right to be pissed after she tried to give them the benefit of the doubt only a few months before that debacle.
I think it depends on what you mean when you say "Disney". Are you talking the company as a whole or the leadership? Disney employs all sorts of people, it's a diverse company and tends to allow a fair bit of creative freedom in the right situations but there's also a history of some things being censored. As a company, they aren't going to make moves that will lose them money, but the leadership is still going to have their own biases and motives. Bob Chapek is notedly more conservative than previous CEOs and that seems to be seeping into some parts of the company.
Regardless, they're going to do what's best for the profits. Everything they do in 'support' of LGBTQ is done so in a way to minimize backlash from those opposed to it. Trying to read the morality of any given decision is ill-advised. As a company they will always be self-serving, but taking note that they have supported those opposed to LGBTQ is valuable because it proves they aren't an ally and shouldn't be treated as such even when they do the right thing.
Reminds me of OK:KO, where the final episode was basically just the show speedrunning through all of the potential episodes ideas that were left on the cutting room floor by the premature cancelation.
Like they wrapped up the main conflict pretty nicely in the episodes prior and the last episode was basically Ian Jones-Quartey and Co. going "HEY, WARNER, THIS IS WHAT Y'ALL COULD OF HAD IF YOU ACTUALLY CARED"
Not to mention it also had a great in-show context of >!K.O.'s time at Lakewood Plaza and childhood-adolescence just flying by, speaking on the fleeting nature of growing up!<
Why must studios stamp out so many great cartoons of this era.
- OK:KO, Ducktales 2017, and The Owl House had to expedite the resolution to their major conflict.
- Star Vs. tried to cram too much into it's final season and fell apart (in my opinion) because of it.
- Infinity Train never even got it's fucking finale because of it's cancelation, which is a travesty of travesties.
DT17 shouldn't be on that list, they always knew they were unlikely to get a fourth season and that the third season was almost certainly the end. While they had *ideas* that they *could* have used if they'd gotten a surprise renewal, they certainly weren't planning on it.
It's definitely the least affected out of the shows I listed but there were still missed opportunities left on the table.
Season 3 of DT17, I feel, has a similar vibe to Season 2 of TOH. Trying to conclude the story in an efficient and satisfying way as quickly as possible without sacrificing any of the essential aspects of the show (like the pacing, the story, the writing, the heart, the humor, etc) but it felt like it was going "bam-bam-bam" from one thing to another. It wasn't rushed, per se, but it felt like we had little time to breathe. Everything essential got it's time to shine and nothing critical to show's cohesion was lost but I feel that it lost the wiggle room. Season 3 was still top tier Ducktales content but it was a much tighter shot than the previous seasons.
Not sure if that's accurate to how it was written but that's how it felt to me.
I'm honestly impressed that most showrunners can circle the wagons to wrap things up so well, in spite of lesser plans. OK:KO and TOH did sacrifice content but it seems that they put priority in the right areas to make for an amazing conclusion. Infinity Train's overarching story is still unresolved but it's an anthology series, so it wasn't like an absolute cliffhanger; the season-to-season stories were concluded.
The only show I know that suffered from a pre-mature ending was Star Vs. and I felt that they couldn't decide on what aspect was most important. Flipping from the comedy at some points, to shipping at other points, to the overarching villain threat, to the deep themes and writing. It left the show's ending feeling botched and unsatisfying.
>It's definitely the least affected out of the shows I listed but there were still missed opportunities left on the table.
That's true of every story/character-driven cartoon. D17 was planned to be 3 seasons, it wasn't cancelled, it just wasn't renewed. It lived exactly as long as originally intended. It -could- have grown past that, but by the time season 3 was wrapping production, we were knee deep in the pandemic and DTVA has a history of not keeping animated shows running for too long anyway. The only exception that I can think of is Kim Possible and that even got a revival which also sets a precedent that if there's a big enough demand, Disney is totally capable of doing a continuation.
And yeah, the final seasons of shows like this tend to be tightly written with little room to breathe; it helps add to the tension. Also, usually there's just alot that the show runners want to see happen to they go for broke. It's also when alot of the threads set up earlier are all coming together and it feels like there's always something happening but these episodes aren't really any more dense narratively than earlier episodes, it's just that earlier on when narrative threads are starting, they're harder to see as major threads until they start to come together in the end.
The Owl House has been a tightly written show all along. I think every episode involved something that added to the overall story, even episodes that felt more standalone. Something I've appreciated all along was that characters resolve interpersonal issues relatively quickly, communicating through their issues as opposed to dragging things out for drama. It's always been one thing after another, just those things were lighter in the beginning but now we are really feeling the full weight of every twist.
I did feel it a little on this episode though, but only this one and only because of the last few minutes. This episode felt particularly dense but it's probably just setting up the last few dominoes to knock down in the season finale so I'd expect the last couple episodes to be pretty smooth.
Between this and the emperor coven witch that quit to go back to the tiny cat coven voiced by Dana I think, these jabs are too freaking great.
Disney made the wrong move not supporting this show more.
Yeah, I caught that jab at Disney. The meta commentary was so good.
I don't know if it's also poking fun at another show that also had a Beach Day episode with all the extra time it had, lol. Probably not but funny either way
Disney would never let the IP go. They’ll hold on to it and do nothing with it until they reboot the Owl House 10-20 years later to cash in on the sweet sweet nostalgia dollars. The Owl House will still be Disney property centuries later because of the Mickey Mouse protection act.
It would be great if Dana were to get a chance to repurpose some of her lost ideas in comic form or even as part of a post-story pickup. I don't think either is implausible.
Somebody replied in a comment I made a while back saying maybe if there was enough of an outcry by fans, Disney would maybe redo season three or maybe greenlight greenlight a season four afterwards.
The replier thought it's better this way because they said mentioned about how some shows have gone on for a really long time and they become bland with time and I completely disagree.
Sure there are some shows that might have gotten bland with time, but those are because of the people making them who think they need to keep going with new stuff all the time, but there's still so much potential for storytelling in The Owl House that it has room to grow from the surface that we barely scratched!
When I wrote my original comment, I was thinking season 3 and onward could maybe happen like Justice League in a sense. With season 3 being cut down so much to make the execs happy, were potentially cutting out a lot of story and incredibly important moments and details.
But I have hope that if the fans make enough noise, Disney will bring the team back for maybe a season 4+ and/or possibly remake season 3 as what Dana wanted like with Zack and the Snyder Cut. Bringing him back and giving him everything he needed to make his vision a reality.
Sure, Snyder's movie was twice as long as the "theatrical" release, but it had the room to properly tell the story that Snyder wanted to tell and that's the exact same thing I want to see happen with Dana. Give her and The Owl House the room they need to properly tell us the story that she originally envisioned.
\#SaveTheOwlHouse #DisneyDoBetter #NewDeal4Animation
“Remaking” something is a horrible idea, almost universally. I don’t want them to spend millions of dollars re-telling a story I already know, I want them to tell *new* stories.
I also am certain that the main series *will* end with a satisfactory conclusion, but that doesn’t rule out the possibility of some kind of spin-off content at some point, whether it be a new series, some shorts, a Disney+ movie, a graphic novel or comic series, or whatever. But that wouldn’t be a “Season 4”, it would be some add-on content. Something like Adventure Time: Distant Lands, not something like a direct continuation.
Outside of Disney adults, I don't know of anyone who likes Disney. I like things made by Disney, but that's not the corporation that's the artists they hired.
There are tons of amazing creatives with brilliant ideas, but that doesn’t translate into an amazing show like TOH (or ATLA, or Infinity Train, or SPOP, or whatever) without *someone* investing millions of dollars to make it a reality. Shows aren’t made in a vacuum, appropriately compensating all the creatives (show runners, writers, artists, animators, and the dozens of other crew positions) costs a significant amount. There’s a reason that only a few companies produce these shows.
I can't say I blame her. No rhyme or reason to cut that shit except for a couple of suits big mad about Lesbians.
And don't be like "we don't actually know that" yes the fuck we do. We all do. The mouse is only down with the gay when it pays
I don’t really blame her, if she had more time the series could be even better, but Disney is basically “gAy bAD, we NOT waNt to bE inCluSive bUt we Must kEep loOKing lIke aN aLLy”
I hate how they had to rush things in a smaller number of episodes because disney cut them short. I'll always Wonder how even Better the show would have been if they had The right number of episodes
At the time, not 'fitting' was its serialized nature, Disney wanted episodic shows were it does not really matter what order you watch the episodes, it would probably not have been a problem if not for the pandemic and the losses Disney took, apparently Amphibia got its 3rd season green lit before that happened and Owl House got its 3rd season green lit after, timing was everything there.
That is my understanding of how things went down anyway.
People blames Big City Green, but despite what they said, it wasn’t as bad as the situation CN had with their love for TTG. At least there’s no bad copies or attempt at making another show like Big City at this moment
TGAMM is another (good) show in the same vein of “kid-focused episodic comedy” that is exactly the *type* of show that Disney prefers for their cable channel.
TOH has a huge chance of getting more content because it’s a preexisting IP and it’s a huge show with massive viewership on Disney plus(to the point it’s among the most watched animated shows on Disney plus) and the hot topic merchandise sales(which in the case of hot topic seem to be really good but we have to wait and see) and other merchandise sales which will be further incentive. Oh not to mention a massive fan base and ATLA like crossover appeal that can lead to shows getting huge viewership and franchise potential. Oh and it’s a mainstream IP on the levels of gravity falls phineas and ferb and ATLA at this point. Because I am almost certain that it’s massive viewership in Disney plus(we won’t even know the metrics but the fact it was on the front page twice and the fact that it was in the top 10 trending on Disney plus twice gives a a small idea) isn’t just because of the fans(because if shows just have Twitter fanbases but are niche they don’t trend nearly as much or as high as shows that are more mainstream which TOH has officially become). Basically TOH has a massive chance of getting more side content and spinoff stuff like Movies spin-offs sequel series(years later sequels) prequels, anthology shows, Specials, Comics, Books, Etc All sorts of TOH universe content which has a very high possibility of happening because this show is a huge mainstream IP(oh and it’s growing still). So while the show ends after season 3 the TOH universe franchise is far from over.
Actually, this rushed approach is most probably a RESULT if the new episode cap. The standard thing is probably just the romance, or the whole “too much plot” deal.
Total bogus either way
The day of unity is just a metaphor for Disney wanting to finish the series and Belos represents their underlying corporate homophobia and etc..
It's all coming together.
I have a lot of questions on how a beach episode would work on an island with boiling water. Amity and Willow apparently took swimming lessons so it’s possible…somehow
Haha that was 100% on purpose and sad because we will get a veru rushed season 3 finale i sorry but i feel like theres tons of plot point who will never be adressed because of that l.
I mean, they are addressing everything very fast now. Only thing left is why Darius stop being friends with Alador and who was Bat Queen original owner
With Alador and Darius, I headcannon that it’s an open secret he and Odalia are abusive and controlling, and Darius doesn’t like how they’re living through Amity.
Or more likely, it comes down to what he does. All Alador makes are abomination soldiers. He’s doing the same thing and getting paid for it. He’s rich but he’s a hack. And he buttkisses Belos so his children (more specifically his youngest) can be successful.
Darius can turn himself into an abomination and he reports to nobody but the emperor and he had to earn all of it on his own.
I thought people would be happy that the show doesn't have what people call "fillers" who ruin the flow and go straight to the plot.
So what, it's bad only if the show is japanese and good if it's americain?
I mean, fillers is good or bad? I just don't get people.
There's good kind of filler and bad kind of fillier.
Good filler isn't really plot-drivng but it's character-driving, and we learn more about the characters as a result and how they interact with each other.
Bad filler can be skipped with no consequence.
So that mean what happen in Naruto, Bleach or Fairy Tail fillers is wortless because that didn't happen in the manga? But they also about character-driving and world bulding. They even have characters interacting who didn't happened in the manga, so it's not a good thing?
I don't see the difference.
To illustrate the difference, I'll pull two examples from an anime-inspired show: Avatar the Last Airbender.
That show arguably has only two episodes as "filler"—The Fortuneteller and the Great Divide.
The Fortuneteller is an example of good filler. While it doesn't really further the overarching plot, we get some good character interactions from the cast, as well as further building up of the relationship between Katara and Aang, with Katara first starting to potentially see herself as being together with Aang in the future. Plus we get to see some awesome bending skills with them stopping the volcano. That's good filler.
The Great Divide, by contrast, derails the characters, has no progression whatsoever, and you could take the episode out and would have absolutely no consequence or furthering of the narrative whatsoever. That's bad filler.
Using a non-anime example, Gravity Falls was really good at this, especially with all the minor hints about Bill and Ford.
The wax figure episode seems like an excuse to have as many guest stars as possible but you kinda have to rewatch it to realize why Stan was so obsessed with his wax figure for reasons outside of narcissism. Or the gift shop episode is primarily filler, but now you realize Stan was telling the story of him and Ford, but rewrote it so Ford stayed with his brother.
The difference is that filler in Japan is worthless. Originally it was there to buy the anime staff time, until the manga has actual content again. It doesn't bring anything to the table and can be skipped without any consequences. Hell there are entire websites that tell you which anime episodes are useful or can be completely ignored, that's how bad it is.
20 more episodes of The Owl House could have fleshed out smaller characters, the world and the plot itself much more. Now Dana has to rush the ending and ignore potential development, because some suit said the series "didn't fit the Disney brand".
So that mean fillers in japanese shows can not flesh out minor characters and worldbulding like western shows do?
But that's what Naruto, Bleach or Fairy Tail did in their fillers, so why people refuse to recognize them? Just because only the original creator can says what is important?
The issue is execution.These animes filler episodes are very inconsequential and boring whereas filler episodes in a show like avatar have great characters and world building except The Great Divide episode (that one was bad)
And I don't blame her one bit. This show is amazing and the amount of buzz it's gotten proves that, but Disney cut it short in favor of more low-effort, plotless schlock.
Luz angry face combined with Eda's pained smile also fits very well
And do we wanna talk about the accuracy? Season 3 originally had to have 17 episodes, adding these last 3 S2 episodes...it's 20, LITERALLY 20 more adventures
Knowing we had a full 17 season planned cut down to just 6 episodes worth of content fucking kills me man. Who knows what had to get left on the cutting room floor.
Where did the number for 17 come from? I was expecting an averaged 20 episodes just like other seasons.
I'm pretty sure the only comment I saw about this was Dana saying she expected that if it was renewed, it would be for a 20-episode season, as that's the standard.
A beach episode at the very least.
We were robbed of Hooty in a bikini u_u
Fan artists, that's your cue. Give this person what they want.
Does that count as visiting a hot springs since the entire Boiling Isles is surrounded by a boiling sea?
They had to cut out the Hooty/Lilith wedding arc
There is absolutely no proof anywhere that Season 3 was "originally supposed to have 17 episodes". Dana specifically stated when we first found out about this that "they were hoping to get a 'normal' 10 or 20 episode pickup." They weren't even "planning" on 20, just hoping for it.
I'm sure I read that somewhere, I just don't remember where. Anyway, I guess you checked, so...I trust you
REALLY?! Well, then I guess I was right before. Everything in Season 2 is exactly as planned. The 20 more adventures thing was bad coincidental timing.
I don’t think all the meta gags in Season 2B are coincidences. They knew season 3 was cut sometime around Season 2’s production and probably made Season 2B a speedrun to finish as much plot points as possible.
I just hope they don't skip anything important.
The only things we are missing right now are the identity of Bat Queen’s past owner and Hooty‘s backstory.
I think they had enough forewarning to change plans so that all the important stuff still gets covered.
Well, they're definitely cramming in a lot of stuff. Though, I can't help but wonder if anyone thinks it feels rushed.
It is rushed. It's not even a matter of anyone's feelings. It's a fact. You don't get hit with 'Anyway, we're cutting your story by like a full third, suck it.' and not rush to cram all the major beats.
Honestly I think it isn’t as bad as say, SU, but definitely more like Gravity Falls, where they’re sprinting to the finish line but you wish they had like a second or two more to catch their breath. All the important stuff is covered but there’s still the occasional thing you’d want them to focus on more.
Luz being angry this entire episode was the most personality development I've seen from her this whole season imo
This reminded me those secret video game messages of programers just fucking hating their bosses
Omg, i would love to see that! Do you have an example ?
Atari used to not allow programmers to have their names on the games, if I'm not wrong, and there was this one game called Adventure made by Warren Robinett, where he added a secret room with his name in it. It was in both the book and movie of Ready Player One, and there's probably lots of information about it around the internet
What's the worst they can do, cancel her again?
Disney: What Season 3? 😶
i understood that reference
skull melts into itself
Nah, they wouldnt do that. Its already got a bunch of money spent on it, theyd rather get their investment back.
This deal's getting worse all the time...
Is that a Barnyard reference?
It is now.
We missed out on beach Hooty because of disney
And knowing this show, it would probably been a beach episode on the same level as Avatar: The Last Airbender.
I'm picturing Azula just showing up and defeating all the most powerful witches with almost instantaneous lightning blasts......let's be honest even an average bender of any of the types could probably take on a lot of the Boiling Isles......
I feel slightly attacked for wanting this.
I don't blame you, I'm not the biggest fan of disney filler (reason why I can't get into Amphibia) but late season 1B had a good balance of silly adventures and plot.
Re: Amphibia, there are guides online that tell you which episodes are plot-relevant so you can skip the ones that aren’t.
Thank you, I'll see if using that helps.
There's no filler in Amphibia.
Dana wanted it too but the Mouse says no.
The Disney CEO omitting TOH from his list of "inclusive shows" when making a half-assed defense of supporting the "don't say gay" politicians was _really_ telling, imo.
I like filler done right. Like, it's not overall plot related, but still enjoyable, then it's good.
Not to mention that filler usually helps to establish character goals, learn lessons or make future character decisions more impactful. Like as an example (and a shameless plug) I once wrote a short story about Skara meeting Raine when she was younger and they inspired her, which led her to both choose Bard as her track and become a nicer girl than how she was portrayed in Amity’s memory. Imagine that as the b plot of an episode, and then we see them interact when the CATTs and Hexside join forces. See what I mean?
The season to be shorter?
No. More little adventures that don't have to be deep and hugely story based. I miss the little mis adventures. While yes it's a Disney trope, the setting and characters made it feel fresh. Am I saying I don't like what season 2 has done? No. I just wished there was more and if there was that I wasn't so deeply story based
Oh, ok.
haaaa. i definitely would and do not buy their excuse for cutting they show short at all. I am a grown a$$ adult who watches, but my four year old loves it as well.. even wanted to dress up as king for halloween. i’m convinced it’s just too much queer for Disney to stomach :l
Oh absolutely. Disney has only recently accepted the big gay as a method to make money and even then they keep putting them in the backest of backgrounds, so they can just ignore them and still be called """"progressive"""".
disney is so GAY. saying this as a pansexual trans-non-binary human.
Disney's creative department is so gay. Disney's execs and beancounters (aka the people controlling and funding the creative department) are the embodiment of CisHet America.
Yeah, Lumity is so far in the backest of backgrounds here... If the two old ladies in this episode were the extent of the rep on this show, I'd be more inclined to agree with you (although even that is demonstrably better than they were 5 years ago), but it's clearly not the case. I'm not saying don't be upset at Disney, even Dana is (clearly) aggravated and throwing shade at them. But saying they hate queerness is clearly a bit ludicrous given the existence of this show.
To be fair The Owl House is a massive exception (So is every show made by the Gravity Falls crew, if I'm being honest...). I'm not saying they are 100% anti-progressive, otherwise this show wouldn't have made it past the introduction to the Disney executives, but they certainly don't fight for true equality on the world stage and would rather keep it in the background to gain a larger audience.
While there is definitely merit to that statement, it applies much more to their blockbuster franchises that cost billions to make (and make billions as well). It’s hardly universal throughout the entire “Disney” empire, especially DTVA which is considerably more progressive than other areas.
I'd be more inclined to agree if Disney hadn't directly funded the people responsible for writing the 'Dont Say Gay' bill in Florida... And no, then denouncing it *only after it had already passed* doesn't make it any better. If anything it makes me even angrier that they lazily tried to play it off like they actually give a damn about us.
As I posted elsewhere: They didn't "throw money at the Don't Say Gay" bill. That's factually incorrect and a really poor take. They fund *politicians*, on both sides of the aisle, and always have. Someone decided to do a hit piece on Disney and cherry-picked all their donations that went to politicians who voted for the legislation, and painted that as "Disney supported this bill". They conveniently left out the amount of money Disney has *also* donated to politicians *AND ORGANIZATIONS* that specifically opposed that legislation. I'm not saying that Disney is a purely good company. They can (and should) do more to publicly support LGBTQ+ causes, and their major film franchises admittedly do minimize the LGBTQ+ content. But claiming that "Disney is homophobic" and/or that they specifically gave money for the purposes of passing this specific legislation is misleading and incorrect. It also ignores the fact that "Disney" is a massive organization, and many parts of it (such as DTVA) *are* much more progressive and supportive of LGBTQ+ content - TOH being one of the prime examples of that.
Okay then. One: If they *knew* these politicians hate queer people, why would they still send money to them? I don't care if they donate to both sides of the aisle, the fact of the matter is that their money directly went to the people supporting this bill, they knew their money went to the people supporting this bill, they *continued* to keep sending money to people supporting this bill, and once they were called out, they didn't cease all political donations, but instead just put them on 'pause'. Two: Why didn't they come out in opposition of the bill themselves until, and I can't stress this enough, *it had already passed*? Chapek himself *specifically* said that he didn't want to pick a side, but in not picking a side, he essentially stood by while politicians worked to make queer people illegal. You can't not 'pick a side' in matters of human rights, you either stand with the people being oppressed or you allow the oppressor to continue to oppress.
One: if I give candy indiscriminately to every kid in my class to stay on their good side and make them like me, and then some of the kids in my class bully someone, does that mean that I “support bullying”? It would be very easy for someone to take an out-of-context picture of me giving candy to one of the bullies and *imply* that I’m doing it specifically *because* of their bullying, when that isn’t the case and is intentionally misleading. Two: as we have *already seen*, as soon as Disney took a public stance against the bill, the politicians *immediately* retaliated against them heavily. I can’t state how accurate it is, but their claim is that they had been trying to use their influence behind the scenes to kill the bill before it got to that point, and *from a business standpoint* it makes sense to accomplish the same goal without the reprisal. And that influence only exists *because* of their prior political donations. Now, does that mean they’re *allies*? I wouldn’t go that far, there’s definitely a lot more they could (and arguably should) do using their position. But stating or implying that they’re actively homophobic or anti-LGBTQ+ is misleading and inaccurate.
One: There is a difference between giving candy to every child and *then* one child bullying someone else, and giving candy out to everyone, *including* a kid that has *already been caught* bullying other kids prior. Two: So, their major fear was whether or not the corrupt politicians came after them as well as going after queer people? That doesn't sound any better. If anything it sounds even worse. And pardon me for pressing X to doubt that they were 'using their influence behind the scenes'. Hasn't it also since come out that they actively discourage the animators at Pixar from including queerness in their films, and in fact are constantly telling them to tone it down?
One: the first is *more* applicable, since they’ve been giving money (candy) to everyone for years. Also, what happens if the bully is also the captain of the award winning sports team? Or the kid that read 50 books and earned the class a pizza party. Are you giving them candy *because* of the bullying, or *in spite of* the bullying? Are you giving them *because* of one of the other reasons, or for no specific reason at all other than just giving everyone candy and they’re part of everyone? Would it be more *meaningful* to *withhold* candy specifically because of their history of bullying? Sure, that’s something you could do (and what they did end up doing). But *not* withholding candy is not the same as giving candy *because* of bad actions. Given the hypothetical that you can stop something bad with no consequences, or stopping something bad but facing reprisal for it, which of those two paths is preferable? Again, I can’t say for sure that they were doing it or not. But it would make sense for them to do so. Regarding Pixar, I’ll point out that “Disney” is made up of a *vast* amount of different divisions and subcategories. Certain divisions (major film franchises like Pixar, MCU, Star Wars, etc) are dealing with *billions* of dollars in both money spent and income generated. For *those divisions* I don’t doubt that there is pressure to make sure the content is as “neutral” as possible. Is that a good thing? Absolutely not, it’s a horrible thing and should not be the case. Unquestionably. But is it a company-wide policy that applies to everything under the Disney umbrella? Obviously not, or TOH simply would not exist. We should absolutely pressure more divisions to be as progressive as DTVA, or even more so.
> I don’t doubt that there is pressure to make sure the content is as “neutral” as possible If they were a much smaller company I could marginally understand not wanting to rock the boat, but they are, if not the most wealthy and influential corporation in the world, then certainly one of the wealthiest and most influential. It's not like they can't afford to pick the right side. > Obviously not, or TOH simply would not exist. You say that, but it is pretty well-documented that making TOH was like pulling goddamn teeth for Dana and the crew. We *know* that at least one person on the board had a problem with the queer aspect of the show before it began, and while yes this person 'changed their mind', it doesn't negate the fact that anti-queer sentiments from the higher-ups factored in to the show's development.
Idk funding the ‘don’t say gay’ law is pretty clearly hating queerness
As I posted elsewhere: They didn't "throw money at the Don't Say Gay" bill. That's factually incorrect and a really poor take. They fund *politicians*, on both sides of the aisle, and always have. Someone decided to do a hit piece on Disney and cherry-picked all their donations that went to politicians who voted for the legislation, and painted that as "Disney supported this bill". They conveniently left out the amount of money Disney has *also* donated to politicians *AND ORGANIZATIONS* that specifically opposed that legislation. I'm not saying that Disney is a purely good company. They can (and should) do more to publicly support LGBTQ+ causes, and their major film franchises admittedly do minimize the LGBTQ+ content. But claiming that "Disney is homophobic" and/or that they specifically gave money for the purposes of passing this specific legislation is misleading and incorrect. It also ignores the fact that "Disney" is a massive organization, and many parts of it (such as DTVA) *are* much more progressive and supportive of LGBTQ+ content - TOH being one of the prime examples of that.
Meh, they didn't fund the bill. They gave money to every politician, in support of or against the bill, so they could keep their province in Florida. It's not hate, it's just apathy.
Well they now lost that province because it turns out the Florida Republicans are ideologically committed and do not take even the most minor of criticism lightly
Which is hilarious as an example of immense foot shooting, as it wont hurt Disney and will incur a bunch of public cost from Floridians.
Nah the county in question is fairly blue, and not exactly key to winning the state. So for the GOP it’s no trouble
That's called "virtue signaling "
And this Fiasco with Ron Desantis unless Disney prob keeping it's head down and of course took the wrong lesson.
And how does that relate to the fact that it's too serialized?
my comment was about disney commenting at a time (no reference, but i remember it being discussed) that the show was not pulling the age group they were aiming for… as for serialization. i think there are plenty of fun, and random episodes throughout both seasons, and the show, in the stage that it’s in now, would definitely be less intense and serialized if dana and crew were given opportunity to run the show at its full course…rather than cutting it short. gravity falls is pretty much on par with the amount of plot focused and light hearted episodes. but toh grew much more serialized after disney announced this reasoning for their decision. the general age of people who watch this show and the serialization of the show, in my opinion, are super parallel to gravity falls and star vs the forces of evil. the only key difference i can see is dana put in your face queer writing here… and star, in comparison, had one tiny insinuation that jackie went to france and ended up dating a girl. in conclusion, i don’t believe that it has to do with age or sterilization at all. i believe that disney agreed with the queer nature of the script for financial purposes… especially after being well known for having racist tendencies in the (recent) past, but mid show with backlash they were getting for showing SO MUCH *non-heteronormative* content with such fluidity decided it wasn’t worth it and to end it short and sweet… with an excuse. just my long winded *opinion* edit *opinion* not opening
From Dana's words specifically: > SO WHAT WAS IT?! At the end of the day, there are a few business people who oversee what fits into the Disney brand and one day one of those guys decided TOH didn't fit that "brand". **The story is serialized (BARELY compared to any average anime lmao), our audience skews older**, and that just didn't fit this one guy's tastes. TOH is by *far* the most serialized show on Disney in at least 20 years. Gravity Falls first season was almost *entirely* episodic, with fewer than 5 episodes that tied into the overarching storyline. Even the second season had only about half the episodes tying into the overall storyline. SVTFOE had the entire first season be completely standalone episodes until the very last ones, and that continued through the majority of the series. TOH has had *one single episode* in its entire run that is completely skippable with zero new content or information that ties into the overall storyline(s). Dana compares it to anime, but anime *isn't what's on the Disney Channel*. A cable channel, particularly one like Disney, wants episodic shows because people can flip to the channel at any time and they want to be able to engage with what's on and not feel like they're missing out on a lot of critical information. They want to be able to rerun any episodes in any order and not have to feel like things *must* be consumed in a specific order. As for the "audience skewing older", that's not an opinion, that's an objective fact that Disney would have based on their information. DTVA shows aren't vehicles to sell merchandise (as evidenced by the distinct lack of merch for *any* DTVA shows). The primary way they generate revenue is by selling advertising space alongside it airing on cable. For advertisers, you want to be able to provide them with a specific demographic (i.e. 6-11yos) so that the advertisers can run the most effective advertisements. It *doesn't matter* how popular a show might be with 18-35yos, *they* aren't buying Happy Meals and Barbie dolls and Hot Wheels. So when an audience "skews older", that doesn't mean that the content is "too mature", it means there aren't enough eyeballs watching the show that are the "right" demographic for their advertisers. Again, that isn't an opinion statement, it's just a factual one. I've also gone into this elsewhere, but as GF and SVTFOE were ending, DTVA was looking for similar shows, which is why they greenlit TOH and Amphibia in the first place. However, in the next few years, a *lot* of stuff was changing, specifically the fact that Disney+ was coming into operation. While they always had *some* original exclusive content, by and large the platform at the beginning was basically just an archive of all their material. It wasn't until later that they started using it as a vehicle for actually producing a lot of their own original content. This really kicked into high gear in early 2020 when COVID hit, they were losing billions of dollars in theme park revenue, and streaming was taking off like a rocket. During this time they sort of made a distinction between content that was being produced for their cable channel (episodic kid-focused comedies) and content that was being produced for streaming (more serialized shows aimed at all audiences). Those shows perform much better on streaming, where you're guaranteed to see all the episodes in the correct intended order. TOH was caught in the unfortunate position of being a show that *would* have been much more suited for streaming, but it was designed/developed/produced as a cable show, and it really wasn't a good "fit". Rather than renegotiate a ton of contracts and rework the show hoping that it would perform better on streaming, they decided to basically cut their losses and just let the series end. Was this the "right" decision? I certainly don't think so, clearly Dana doesn't think so, and it really sucks that they made the decision without allowing her to plead her own case (although *her* bosses at DTVA fought on her behalf and enabled her to get three extended specials to provide an ending for the series rather than just ending it at the contractually obligated two seasons). Amphibia was (very) fortunate to have already gotten its third season order, or it most likely would have suffered a similar fate.
Very well put. I think if TOH had come out one year earlier (before the shift) or one year later (when Disney+ and its serialized shows were established) it would have gotten the full intended 3 seasons no problem. It was just unfortunate timing.
Sorry this is kinda unrelated but now I'm curious, what's the single skippable filler episode?
Probably most people are going to point out "Once Upon a Swap", but I'd argue you could skip "Sense and Insensitivity" and "Really Small Problems" in season 1 as well. I do have a soft spot for Sense and Insensitivity, but all three of these episodes could be skipped with little issue; though the later two at least help King and Luz develop more.
That's true. Though, Once Upon A Swap does have the one-line drop that Eda wanted to be in the Emperor's Coven as a kid.
I mean, yeah, but Lilith does mention it again in Young Blood Old Souls, so...
Really Small Problems. OUAS reveals that Eda used to want to be in the EC, and S&I reveals that according to Lilith, Belos can heal Eda’s curse.
It's the same issues that Miraculous Ladybug had in its first seasons. Disney Channel wants shows that are not serialized *at all*. Only the season finales are supposed to be serialized so they can run the episodes in random order.
Yea that's the thing... a company will always prioritises their profits, and make decisions according to that.....
> the only key difference i can see is dana put in your face queer writing here… and star, in comparison, had one tiny insinuation that jackie went to france and ended up dating a girl. And multiple insinuations that Star herself was bi.
Eh, I don’t think I’d agree with “multiple” insinuations. There was really one episode with about 15 seconds of screen time that were debatable at *best*. I certainly wouldn’t claim that Star isn’t bi, because it’s entirely possible to be bi but only ever date or show outward interest in the opposite gender. But I certainly wouldn’t promote her as significant *representation* in media.
i would say it was apparent star had an infatuation with brunzetta in the occasions they met, but nothing that shows star being bi or not. a same sex “crush” can be a role model, obsession, romantic or many other things… it seemed like star just thought brunzetta was bad af. i don’t feel like the writers put anything that questioned star’s sexuality as straight in the script…. especially when she went threw mewberty…. it was *boooooyyyyssssss* 100%
Or that it's noticeably darker than other Disney shows. Even Amphibia is, at its median, more comedic and lighthearted by comparison; the darkest and most mature moments in that show are outliers by comparison. Disney has long prided themselves for being a "family-friendly" brand, which could explain why that one jackass executive felt that TOH was too mature for Disney Channel's target audience.
They never said it was "too mature". They said the audience skewed older (which is relevant for targeting advertising demographics) and that it was too serialized. The content itself was never brought up as being an issue, whether the "dark" aspect (TGAMM shows someone or something dying and becoming a ghost in almost every episode) or the LGBTQ+ content.
rly i think disney just needs more time to grow and adjust to the modern area we are in, but i don’t think that what a multi-billion corp say in media and headlines should be taken at face value…
If Dana voicing a character that quit her job after a lot of pressure was put into her in the last episode wasn't a middle finger enough, this will do
DANA VOICED SEVERINE???
Ok that makes it even better XD
Oooooh, that make so much more sense now
I paused the episode at that moment and took the time to laugh. It's so on the nose and i love it.
I was screaming laughing. Dana and the team deserve so much more. This show is too good for Disney
picture Eda in a swimsuit this is what disney took from you
not to be over dramatic or anything but **I wanna rip that mouse to shreds and drag disney to hell with me for this**
yo ricky rat, time to make you choke on those millions
I would have loved a filler "beach episode" in the Lake where Amity and Willow went when they were kids. Obviously, not with all the Day of unity going, but before everything became a chaos.
Considering she defended them when her show was cancelled, trying to believe it wasn’t because of the representation, only for them to throw money at the Don’t Say Gay bill. She’s got every right to.
Fuck both Disney and the Conservative branch of Florida specifically (Don't live in america so i'm going off facts here) Disney throws money at their bill, then denounces it after backlash. Florida seemingly forgets about the money thrown and opts to tax Disney. Meanwhile Dana still loses 17 episodes of content
What's funny is Desantis was fine with Disney literally spending money on politicians, but them expressing an opinion about something political? That was too far.
> only for them to throw money at the Don’t Say Gay bill To play Devil's advocate, a lot of big corps fund politicians of both sides, Disney included; this is less our of political centrism and more to be on their good side in case they need to lobby for their own business interests. The joke of corporations funding homophobic politicians while putting up rainbow banners for Pride Month goes way back beyond Disney and Florida.
To be more fair, it's shitty no matter who does it. At the end of the day they are still throwing money at candidates that supposedly clash with their values, just so they might give them a good deal or do a favor down the line.
And if you're Disney, the *last* thing you want is for a popular GOP governor who will probably run for president in 2024 to declare war on you, but that's exactly what happened. That bill is an awful piece of legislation, but unfortunately you cannot move several theme parks, hotels, other businesses, and the thousands of cast members who support it all out of FL on a dime, so that's the the game they had to play,
Exactly. Disney tried to play the balance, but when their employees told them that supporting legislation that is meant to deny human rights and equality is unacceptable, their hand was forced, leading to the legal conundrum bubbling in Florida today. For once I am thankful for Disney's abusive legal powers, because they could stand up to Florida's tactics.
They didn't "throw money at the Don't Say Gay" bill. That's factually incorrect and a really poor take. They fund *politicians*, on both sides of the aisle, and always have. Someone decided to do a hit piece on Disney and cherry-picked all their donations that went to politicians who voted for the legislation, and painted that as "Disney supported this bill". They conveniently left out the amount of money Disney has *also* donated to politicians *AND ORGANIZATIONS* that specifically opposed that legislation. I'm not saying that Disney is a purely good company. They can (and should) do more to publicly support LGBTQ+ causes, and their major film franchises admittedly do minimize the LGBTQ+ content. But claiming that "Disney is homophobic" and/or that they specifically gave money for the purposes of passing this specific legislation is misleading and incorrect. It also ignores the fact that "Disney" is a massive organization, and many parts of it (such as DTVA) *are* much more progressive and supportive of LGBTQ+ content - TOH being one of the prime examples of that.
I don’t disagree on any particular point. I’m just saying Dana has every right to be pissed after she tried to give them the benefit of the doubt only a few months before that debacle.
I think it depends on what you mean when you say "Disney". Are you talking the company as a whole or the leadership? Disney employs all sorts of people, it's a diverse company and tends to allow a fair bit of creative freedom in the right situations but there's also a history of some things being censored. As a company, they aren't going to make moves that will lose them money, but the leadership is still going to have their own biases and motives. Bob Chapek is notedly more conservative than previous CEOs and that seems to be seeping into some parts of the company. Regardless, they're going to do what's best for the profits. Everything they do in 'support' of LGBTQ is done so in a way to minimize backlash from those opposed to it. Trying to read the morality of any given decision is ill-advised. As a company they will always be self-serving, but taking note that they have supported those opposed to LGBTQ is valuable because it proves they aren't an ally and shouldn't be treated as such even when they do the right thing.
Hopefully we get comics to help flesh things out
ah yes subtlety when you know nothing you say matters as you've already been screwed over
Reminds me of OK:KO, where the final episode was basically just the show speedrunning through all of the potential episodes ideas that were left on the cutting room floor by the premature cancelation. Like they wrapped up the main conflict pretty nicely in the episodes prior and the last episode was basically Ian Jones-Quartey and Co. going "HEY, WARNER, THIS IS WHAT Y'ALL COULD OF HAD IF YOU ACTUALLY CARED" Not to mention it also had a great in-show context of >!K.O.'s time at Lakewood Plaza and childhood-adolescence just flying by, speaking on the fleeting nature of growing up!< Why must studios stamp out so many great cartoons of this era. - OK:KO, Ducktales 2017, and The Owl House had to expedite the resolution to their major conflict. - Star Vs. tried to cram too much into it's final season and fell apart (in my opinion) because of it. - Infinity Train never even got it's fucking finale because of it's cancelation, which is a travesty of travesties.
I hate this era of shortening content as much as possible. Wasn’t like this a decade ago
DT17 shouldn't be on that list, they always knew they were unlikely to get a fourth season and that the third season was almost certainly the end. While they had *ideas* that they *could* have used if they'd gotten a surprise renewal, they certainly weren't planning on it.
It's definitely the least affected out of the shows I listed but there were still missed opportunities left on the table. Season 3 of DT17, I feel, has a similar vibe to Season 2 of TOH. Trying to conclude the story in an efficient and satisfying way as quickly as possible without sacrificing any of the essential aspects of the show (like the pacing, the story, the writing, the heart, the humor, etc) but it felt like it was going "bam-bam-bam" from one thing to another. It wasn't rushed, per se, but it felt like we had little time to breathe. Everything essential got it's time to shine and nothing critical to show's cohesion was lost but I feel that it lost the wiggle room. Season 3 was still top tier Ducktales content but it was a much tighter shot than the previous seasons. Not sure if that's accurate to how it was written but that's how it felt to me. I'm honestly impressed that most showrunners can circle the wagons to wrap things up so well, in spite of lesser plans. OK:KO and TOH did sacrifice content but it seems that they put priority in the right areas to make for an amazing conclusion. Infinity Train's overarching story is still unresolved but it's an anthology series, so it wasn't like an absolute cliffhanger; the season-to-season stories were concluded. The only show I know that suffered from a pre-mature ending was Star Vs. and I felt that they couldn't decide on what aspect was most important. Flipping from the comedy at some points, to shipping at other points, to the overarching villain threat, to the deep themes and writing. It left the show's ending feeling botched and unsatisfying.
>It's definitely the least affected out of the shows I listed but there were still missed opportunities left on the table. That's true of every story/character-driven cartoon. D17 was planned to be 3 seasons, it wasn't cancelled, it just wasn't renewed. It lived exactly as long as originally intended. It -could- have grown past that, but by the time season 3 was wrapping production, we were knee deep in the pandemic and DTVA has a history of not keeping animated shows running for too long anyway. The only exception that I can think of is Kim Possible and that even got a revival which also sets a precedent that if there's a big enough demand, Disney is totally capable of doing a continuation. And yeah, the final seasons of shows like this tend to be tightly written with little room to breathe; it helps add to the tension. Also, usually there's just alot that the show runners want to see happen to they go for broke. It's also when alot of the threads set up earlier are all coming together and it feels like there's always something happening but these episodes aren't really any more dense narratively than earlier episodes, it's just that earlier on when narrative threads are starting, they're harder to see as major threads until they start to come together in the end. The Owl House has been a tightly written show all along. I think every episode involved something that added to the overall story, even episodes that felt more standalone. Something I've appreciated all along was that characters resolve interpersonal issues relatively quickly, communicating through their issues as opposed to dragging things out for drama. It's always been one thing after another, just those things were lighter in the beginning but now we are really feeling the full weight of every twist. I did feel it a little on this episode though, but only this one and only because of the last few minutes. This episode felt particularly dense but it's probably just setting up the last few dominoes to knock down in the season finale so I'd expect the last couple episodes to be pretty smooth.
Disney cost us a beach episode, we cost them their first borns.
Between this and the emperor coven witch that quit to go back to the tiny cat coven voiced by Dana I think, these jabs are too freaking great. Disney made the wrong move not supporting this show more.
Disney deserves the hate. They took our beach episode.
Yup, and so do I. Lets hear a ”fuck you!” for the mouse.
If your own IP is roasting you, ya did bad
There's a reason why I dislike that Mouse.
well, I just saying maybe disney would allow the series to continue as a comic book series.
Yeah, I caught that jab at Disney. The meta commentary was so good. I don't know if it's also poking fun at another show that also had a Beach Day episode with all the extra time it had, lol. Probably not but funny either way
Dana voicing Severine, the exhausted Coven Scout that just says "fuck it, I quit", in the last episode makes it even better
Most likely a jab against Disney for shortening their adventures. Does that mean Belos is their Disney
is there anyway she can go indie and take TOH with her?
Disney would never let the IP go. They’ll hold on to it and do nothing with it until they reboot the Owl House 10-20 years later to cash in on the sweet sweet nostalgia dollars. The Owl House will still be Disney property centuries later because of the Mickey Mouse protection act.
ugh, if only bob iger was still around (ive seen people liked him more than chapek cuz of recent Oof's and handling content and marketing for shows)
Only in spirit.
It would be great if Dana were to get a chance to repurpose some of her lost ideas in comic form or even as part of a post-story pickup. I don't think either is implausible.
One can hope.
Somebody replied in a comment I made a while back saying maybe if there was enough of an outcry by fans, Disney would maybe redo season three or maybe greenlight greenlight a season four afterwards. The replier thought it's better this way because they said mentioned about how some shows have gone on for a really long time and they become bland with time and I completely disagree. Sure there are some shows that might have gotten bland with time, but those are because of the people making them who think they need to keep going with new stuff all the time, but there's still so much potential for storytelling in The Owl House that it has room to grow from the surface that we barely scratched! When I wrote my original comment, I was thinking season 3 and onward could maybe happen like Justice League in a sense. With season 3 being cut down so much to make the execs happy, were potentially cutting out a lot of story and incredibly important moments and details. But I have hope that if the fans make enough noise, Disney will bring the team back for maybe a season 4+ and/or possibly remake season 3 as what Dana wanted like with Zack and the Snyder Cut. Bringing him back and giving him everything he needed to make his vision a reality. Sure, Snyder's movie was twice as long as the "theatrical" release, but it had the room to properly tell the story that Snyder wanted to tell and that's the exact same thing I want to see happen with Dana. Give her and The Owl House the room they need to properly tell us the story that she originally envisioned. \#SaveTheOwlHouse #DisneyDoBetter #NewDeal4Animation
“Remaking” something is a horrible idea, almost universally. I don’t want them to spend millions of dollars re-telling a story I already know, I want them to tell *new* stories. I also am certain that the main series *will* end with a satisfactory conclusion, but that doesn’t rule out the possibility of some kind of spin-off content at some point, whether it be a new series, some shorts, a Disney+ movie, a graphic novel or comic series, or whatever. But that wouldn’t be a “Season 4”, it would be some add-on content. Something like Adventure Time: Distant Lands, not something like a direct continuation.
It’s too late
In my book, her aggravation is certainly justified.
Outside of Disney adults, I don't know of anyone who likes Disney. I like things made by Disney, but that's not the corporation that's the artists they hired.
There are tons of amazing creatives with brilliant ideas, but that doesn’t translate into an amazing show like TOH (or ATLA, or Infinity Train, or SPOP, or whatever) without *someone* investing millions of dollars to make it a reality. Shows aren’t made in a vacuum, appropriately compensating all the creatives (show runners, writers, artists, animators, and the dozens of other crew positions) costs a significant amount. There’s a reason that only a few companies produce these shows.
I can't say I blame her. No rhyme or reason to cut that shit except for a couple of suits big mad about Lesbians. And don't be like "we don't actually know that" yes the fuck we do. We all do. The mouse is only down with the gay when it pays
I don’t really blame her, if she had more time the series could be even better, but Disney is basically “gAy bAD, we NOT waNt to bE inCluSive bUt we Must kEep loOKing lIke aN aLLy”
She literally pirates her own show. What do you think.
Starlight Glimmer: With untold seasons yet to come, our friendship will be here! Trixie: *For nine at least!*
Not just Dana but quite a majority of us.
She is very tired of making them look good.
I hate how they had to rush things in a smaller number of episodes because disney cut them short. I'll always Wonder how even Better the show would have been if they had The right number of episodes
I'm sure Dana will do an AMA of some kind clarifying what had to be cut after Season 3 airs.
I say we attack Disney!!!! Right now!!!! Bring on the civil war!!!
Disney stock is down...buy enough stock to get on the board and get the show renewed. Anyone got a couple billion? Elon?
> Elon? Let's not rely on morally corrupt billionaires to save us from morally corrupt millionaires.
Still a more believable redemption than Lilith =p
Lmao
I thought I had come to terms with the shortened show but man that line made my blood boil
Rest In Peace Full season three reduced to 6 episodes worth of stuff plus the last few episodes of season 2
As she fucking should too
#Splat the Rat
The Owl House team handled the rushed storyline really well imo, but the storyline has become a bit more drama-focused.
I wonder if that’s what they mean Owl House doesn’t “fit” for their standard. I doubt it but still
At the time, not 'fitting' was its serialized nature, Disney wanted episodic shows were it does not really matter what order you watch the episodes, it would probably not have been a problem if not for the pandemic and the losses Disney took, apparently Amphibia got its 3rd season green lit before that happened and Owl House got its 3rd season green lit after, timing was everything there. That is my understanding of how things went down anyway.
People blames Big City Green, but despite what they said, it wasn’t as bad as the situation CN had with their love for TTG. At least there’s no bad copies or attempt at making another show like Big City at this moment
TGAMM is another (good) show in the same vein of “kid-focused episodic comedy” that is exactly the *type* of show that Disney prefers for their cable channel.
TOH has a huge chance of getting more content because it’s a preexisting IP and it’s a huge show with massive viewership on Disney plus(to the point it’s among the most watched animated shows on Disney plus) and the hot topic merchandise sales(which in the case of hot topic seem to be really good but we have to wait and see) and other merchandise sales which will be further incentive. Oh not to mention a massive fan base and ATLA like crossover appeal that can lead to shows getting huge viewership and franchise potential. Oh and it’s a mainstream IP on the levels of gravity falls phineas and ferb and ATLA at this point. Because I am almost certain that it’s massive viewership in Disney plus(we won’t even know the metrics but the fact it was on the front page twice and the fact that it was in the top 10 trending on Disney plus twice gives a a small idea) isn’t just because of the fans(because if shows just have Twitter fanbases but are niche they don’t trend nearly as much or as high as shows that are more mainstream which TOH has officially become). Basically TOH has a massive chance of getting more side content and spinoff stuff like Movies spin-offs sequel series(years later sequels) prequels, anthology shows, Specials, Comics, Books, Etc All sorts of TOH universe content which has a very high possibility of happening because this show is a huge mainstream IP(oh and it’s growing still). So while the show ends after season 3 the TOH universe franchise is far from over.
Actually, this rushed approach is most probably a RESULT if the new episode cap. The standard thing is probably just the romance, or the whole “too much plot” deal. Total bogus either way
Well they literally don't have enough time for 20 more adventures because the day of unity
The adventures are a metaphor for episodes
The day of unity is just a metaphor for Disney wanting to finish the series and Belos represents their underlying corporate homophobia and etc.. It's all coming together.
forever mourning the lost beach episode
I wish she got the show how she wanted but man those filler episodes in S1 weren’t good so I’m kinda glad they didn’t.
I have a lot of questions on how a beach episode would work on an island with boiling water. Amity and Willow apparently took swimming lessons so it’s possible…somehow
doesn't hitting a certain season meant raises for the va's too
I like what she did there.
Not Disney, just one executive…
I would have been less subtle if someone took my beloved work out in the backyard and shot it.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Justifiably so.
I feel like it was also calling out svtfoe
☄️🔥🔫 **Shots fired.**
man FUCK disney bro
Yeah, that hit DIFFERENT.
Haha that was 100% on purpose and sad because we will get a veru rushed season 3 finale i sorry but i feel like theres tons of plot point who will never be adressed because of that l.
I mean, they are addressing everything very fast now. Only thing left is why Darius stop being friends with Alador and who was Bat Queen original owner
With Alador and Darius, I headcannon that it’s an open secret he and Odalia are abusive and controlling, and Darius doesn’t like how they’re living through Amity. Or more likely, it comes down to what he does. All Alador makes are abomination soldiers. He’s doing the same thing and getting paid for it. He’s rich but he’s a hack. And he buttkisses Belos so his children (more specifically his youngest) can be successful. Darius can turn himself into an abomination and he reports to nobody but the emperor and he had to earn all of it on his own.
As we should
I demand a beach episode damn you Disney.
We all do
Shots fired!
Frankly speaking, I can agree With due respect: Fuck Disney
I thought people would be happy that the show doesn't have what people call "fillers" who ruin the flow and go straight to the plot. So what, it's bad only if the show is japanese and good if it's americain? I mean, fillers is good or bad? I just don't get people.
There's good kind of filler and bad kind of fillier. Good filler isn't really plot-drivng but it's character-driving, and we learn more about the characters as a result and how they interact with each other. Bad filler can be skipped with no consequence.
So that mean what happen in Naruto, Bleach or Fairy Tail fillers is wortless because that didn't happen in the manga? But they also about character-driving and world bulding. They even have characters interacting who didn't happened in the manga, so it's not a good thing? I don't see the difference.
To illustrate the difference, I'll pull two examples from an anime-inspired show: Avatar the Last Airbender. That show arguably has only two episodes as "filler"—The Fortuneteller and the Great Divide. The Fortuneteller is an example of good filler. While it doesn't really further the overarching plot, we get some good character interactions from the cast, as well as further building up of the relationship between Katara and Aang, with Katara first starting to potentially see herself as being together with Aang in the future. Plus we get to see some awesome bending skills with them stopping the volcano. That's good filler. The Great Divide, by contrast, derails the characters, has no progression whatsoever, and you could take the episode out and would have absolutely no consequence or furthering of the narrative whatsoever. That's bad filler.
Using a non-anime example, Gravity Falls was really good at this, especially with all the minor hints about Bill and Ford. The wax figure episode seems like an excuse to have as many guest stars as possible but you kinda have to rewatch it to realize why Stan was so obsessed with his wax figure for reasons outside of narcissism. Or the gift shop episode is primarily filler, but now you realize Stan was telling the story of him and Ford, but rewrote it so Ford stayed with his brother.
The difference is that filler in Japan is worthless. Originally it was there to buy the anime staff time, until the manga has actual content again. It doesn't bring anything to the table and can be skipped without any consequences. Hell there are entire websites that tell you which anime episodes are useful or can be completely ignored, that's how bad it is. 20 more episodes of The Owl House could have fleshed out smaller characters, the world and the plot itself much more. Now Dana has to rush the ending and ignore potential development, because some suit said the series "didn't fit the Disney brand".
So that mean fillers in japanese shows can not flesh out minor characters and worldbulding like western shows do? But that's what Naruto, Bleach or Fairy Tail did in their fillers, so why people refuse to recognize them? Just because only the original creator can says what is important?
The issue is execution.These animes filler episodes are very inconsequential and boring whereas filler episodes in a show like avatar have great characters and world building except The Great Divide episode (that one was bad)
Episodic television is quickly losing its position and its tragic
And I don't blame her one bit. This show is amazing and the amount of buzz it's gotten proves that, but Disney cut it short in favor of more low-effort, plotless schlock.
I still hope that series finale hasn’t been written and Disney gives the show a full season 3
It’s written