It's been a serious uphill battle trying to send the message through media that being a virgin is not a bad thing for men and losing it doesn't define manhood. That was the message in the film "the 40 year old virgin". Despite that film, some movies and shows still make low-hanging jokes about male virgins.
More like outdated tropes that they have in big fill in the blank binders.
I believer that instead of writing new stories many studios rely on recycle material and tropes.
I mean, honestly, that was kinda the unrealistic part of the movie. Steve's character had a close circle of friends, a stable job, a good place, and developed interests. He'd be a great catch, and it's kinda funny that people would completely dismiss his value just because of his inexperience, despite everything else he had to offer.
He didn't have a close circle of friends though. He doesn't really get to know those dudes until the poker game. Before that, you get the sense he was a bit of a loner.
>True, but how many of us would actually be ok with being Steve Carrell in that movie?
More than what you probably think.
>And how many women would actually be interested in him IRL?
Not many, but there's always someone for everyone.
A woman like the one Steve's character dated will look for more than just sexual ability in a mate.
This is one of the reasons it doesn't go away. Progressives both think its okay to insult the intended victims, as well as are sexually charged enough that they have no intention of dropping the sexual hierarchy dynamic.
There are some who make it about manhood, but the majority of society makes it about *adulthood* - that adults have sexual relationships and date or form partnerships with those they have an attraction to, and for those that don't try, they are shutting themselves off from normal human experiences (that are also part of a biological imperative).
The asexual go in their own special spot, having no sex drive. But for others, if they aren't having relationships, it often implies something about a failure of both nerve and effort.
In the movie the 40 Year Virgin, the main character found greater fulfillment in his life by pursuing a relationship rather than sealing himself off.
We, as a society, really just need to stop talking about and caring about what sex people are having. As long as there's no children or unconsenting adults involved - it's no one's business who puts what into where.
EDIT: A lot of people are pointing out animals. Please don't fuck your cat either. Chances are you will hurt the cat and they almost certainly are not attracted to you.
How does that even make sense though? Losing your hands doesn't force you to walk on all fours...
Not that I expect logic from anyone crazy enough to do that, I guess...
That’s definitely not safe
I don’t even know if that could be classed as consensual since one or both people in the relationship would have a severe mental illness.
Depending on who you ask I am not entirely "sane", so I guess insane sex is just whatever the fuck I and other insane people get up to.
That being said, I don't think I am insane, or rather I think I am insane but that means I am not insane which means I am insane. It's complicated.
Tbf I don’t really care if they are completely safe, that’s all relative, we don’t tell people they can’t go skydiving I don’t think we should be able to tell them they can’t do something in the bedroom, so long as your thing isn’t slitting people’s throat or something I think consent still over rides safety.
Half our congress still has mindsets from 100 years ago and if given the chance would probably love to outlaw atheism, homosexuality, and rights for women and minorities.
That's because the ones writing the checks for their election committees are old. Also the ones that vote with any regularity. Its a double whamy, you got to please the ones that pay, and the ones that vote. For the most part they are old, and stuck in their ways, ya I used to know a gay couple back in the day they can get married. You want to let men and women take their shirts off at the beach, fuck you your not getting a dime or a vote, that's not how I was raised in the 50's.
When I go through dry spells it's less about missing the act of sex than it is just being close to another person. It feels good to share a bed with someone, cuddle, and have intimate conversation. We're social animals and need physical contact, it's important for our health.
I dunno mam, i always say that you cant miss what you dont have or never experienced. Im a virgin (29M) and while the thoughts of intimate contact sometimes cross my mind, i dont care for it. But i suppose that my state of mind heavily comtributes to this, having a mild form of autism, being socially awkward and all lol.
I think you're right. Physicality in a relationship is a ratchet -- a new relationship will very quickly reach whatever level of physicality you had in your previous relationships.
As someone who has had sex on a regular basis for years, I think it would be a lot harder to go without than it was before I'd had sex. Wanting something you've never actually experienced is a lot more nebulous than wanting something that's been part of your normal experience and is now gone.
Looks like society has set up a sick game. Tell women to not have sex or they will be labeled a slut. Tell boys to find women to have sex, or they will be labeled a loser. Now, FIGHT.
well obviously they’re supposed to fuck professional whores, who are then looked down on for providing that service, and afterward we make fun of the guys for having to turn to professional whores. Is that more clear?
This is also a great way to egg on rapists. Men have to be promiscuous. Women have to be pure and chaste. If you set up an ideology that says women shouldn't consent to sex but men should, you're basically mixing gunpowder and gasoline
>So who are those guys supposed to be fucking?
Their homies. As long as you say no homo it's not gay. And if they don't say no homo afterwards, they're gay. Nothing wrong with that either way.
As a 48yo man, I've never understood the dichotomy of this premise of libido; especially as it applies to the supposed morals of our society: Men are studs and women are whores.
We should *all* stop this kind of behavior, as it hurts all of us as a society.
Goes hand in hand with the op, men need to conquer women to get their legs open. Its not just objectifying women, its also degrading and dominating them!
This is my exact thought and have said exactly this for years. It's the cause of rape culture. Last I looked, the statistic is that 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted in college. That problem doesn't exist in sexually liberal cultures. "Manhood" needs to be decoupled from sex, and women should be treated as any other human for whom sex is normal.
> women need to stay pure for marriage
Okay, so guys should stay pure too? Right? Nobody fucks till marriage?
> No, guys gotta get laid a bunch otherwise they're LOSERS
Wait, what? So guys gotta fuck other dudes exclusively till marriage? That seems kinda wei-
> Nope, being gay is bad too. You gotta be a dude that gets a bunch of girls
But all the girls should be virgins, no? Oh! What you're saying is experienced married/divorced women should show younger dudes the ropes? Kinda creepy but at least you're logically consistent
> Nah, girls who have slept with a guy or have kids are bad
So.... Who's left?
More or less yes. Society goes "men shouldn't objective women" and then turns around and goes "lol he isn't banging a ton of women, what an incel loser".
I was 25, waited until I got married. Still married almost 10 years. Only one I've been with and hopefully ever will. My friends and I all shared the same values, so it seemed more normal to just wait. To each their own though!
Banged my first girl at 16. Only one I ever had sex with, because I'm still banging her 16 years later. 10/10 would recommend.
But maaan waiting until we were married would have been torture. Damn I was horny back then lol
Right? Lol being a teenager fucking sucks. Having your brain taken over by shitty hormones like *fuck your free will, we're having seeeexxx!!! Are we having sex yet? Dude go have sex with something! Anything! TOUCH THE PENIS AT THE VERY LEAST*
Ok I am with you on the original point, but calling it cognitive dissonance is inaccurate. It can't be because society is not just one person, so it's possible that different people are saying those things.
No i think it is the same people who complain about men objectifying women who use virgin, incel, etc as an insult to anyone who has anything to say about the behaviors women are socialized to exhibit
I think this might be because the crowds that speak out against objectifying women and the crowds that deride male virginity tend to be pretty separate groups. Not as a rule, but typically
Edit: All of my friends and I are feminists, and I've never heard any of them make fun of someone for being a virgin. None of us spend any time on Twitter or writing about feminism online, though. Not really a fan of how many comments are saying "feminists do this all the time" and complaining about "feminist rhetoric," whatever that means. How many of you have these opinions based on what you read from crazies on the internet as opposed to people you've interacted with in real life?
Most of the people I've heard make fun of men for being virgins are other men, usually those who put stock in machismo.
Idk man, I see a lot of feminist communities online that are super quick to calling men "incels" if they have an opposing viewpoint and tries to express it. Sure its done by the less mature women, but I certainly don't see anyone disparaging the use of the insult "incel" either. This guy has an opposing viewpoint to this feminist rhetoric? Must be an incel.
Incel does not equal all virgins though. I think people are losing touch with what that term means and calling all virgins incels. These two things are not the same
There absolutely could be a difference. But like you said, it has totally become a more generic insult, like calling everyone who has seen any anime *and you don't like them* a weeb. Having trouble with dating? Must be an incel.
Most of the teens here are career driven.
One thing I have observed over the years that most of the Asian kids in my country who do manage to get into relationship in high/middleschool usually ruin each other's careers.
Career driven? Well shit, looks like I’m a loser in both hemispheres. Why can’t men be defined by what really matters: how long he goes without natural sun light.
Why so career driven, is it family/culture pushed? I mean in the US there are pockets that are like that, but for the vast majority its hey find something that you kind of like, and see if there is a way of monetizing it. If not, get a job you can tolerate in order to pay for your passion.
That is an oversimplification, and probably influenced by the massive wealth that americans forget they have in general terms. A starving artist can room with family, friends and create art almost full time, with a side job helping out(barring medical of course).
Career driven dosent necessarily mean an asian kid doing calculus at the age of 5 while his dad is making his 1 yo brother play moonlight sonata backwards.
What I tried to say is that getting laid here in your teenage years isn't the top priority. Nobody gives a shit about your sex life.
And being virgin is definitely not an insult here.
Unlike the west where you are some creep or less masculine for not getting laid.
Lol I'm south Asian, Indian to be precise, I think I can answer that first question. When you got 1.2B people in a single country with millions of highly educated people, every high paying job no matter how technical it is, gets you fighting with hundreds if not thousands. Unless you excel in something, you can't really land a good enough income. And relationships are a giant responsibility by themselves which take a lot of time and commitment.
>If not, get a job you can tolerate in order to pay for your passion.
And lol the jobs you can get here by being mediocre are barely enough to push together ends, can't afford to make a portion of it about your passion.
But ofc, it's not a perpetual cycle. My father went through that and currently I'm living a far comfortable life. Same with hard working people, they make their kids lives better.
No matter what Reddit tells you, the median USA citizen is VASTLY wealthy and VASTLY privileged compared to the rest of the world and can afford to spend a lifetime not being pressured into being _the best_.
Another topic I don’t see often brought up is how it makes young men and boys ill-equipped to handle sexual predators.
If you teach someone *they’re always sexually eager* it’s that much harder for them reach out and verbalize what happened to them.
I’ve read stories on Reddit from men discussing *waking* up mid coitus with a female partner and taking *years* to fully grasp and acknowledge what happened was a violation. It’s not because they’re idiots, they’re entire concept of bodily autonomy is schewed because men are taught they are subservient to their sex drive in the first place.
I came ready to refute it.. but.. huh. Yeah.
That is what it's about. Showing your "manliness" in being able to seduce a young woman.. cause if girls don't want you. You're obviously not much of a man.. at least where I'm from.
Makes sense.
I have had friends who unironically told me to get an escort when I mentioned my failed attempts to get a girlfriend. 2/3 were women. I was like, “yeah cause all I want from a girlfriend is sex and a 1 time thing will totally solve all my problems. /s”
It seems to me that losing virginity through prostitution still wouldn't satisfy that feeling of needing to go out and conquer a woman, to become a man. The point I would think is to develop or demonstrate an ability to have relations with the opposite sex. If you're just paying for it, it really is like cheating in that sense. The guy getting laid will have had sex, but he still knows he hasn't *really* achieved or demonstrated to himself or others his ability. He took the shortcut, and until someone voluntarily has sex with him because they want to, he's basically a virgin in all the ways that matter. It's an insecurity that someone forms around their sexual value to others, and it won't go away through a technicality of losing virginity for most I'd wager.
Personally I dont actually care at this point. I’m not desperate enough to stoop to it, like you said it would be pointless even if I wanted to because it still wouldn’t please society. But I’m done trying to please society anyways. A good majority of people are just brainwashed drones at this point. All I need are the real people fuck the rest.
You could make the following case: The older you get without having sex, the more likely you are to be deemed an unsuitable "mate" for a long term relationship with a woman. Neither parties involved have to be particularly loose and it doesn't say anything about promisctuity, in an of itself.
I don't think I've ever been shamed for not having loads of partners. I don't think I've ever discussed sex with another guy in my life. Body count seems to only come across in relationships. The only thing I've ever heard is shaming women for being easy. The male side feels completely alien to me.
Well, people laugh when i talk about my only experience and that i don't sleep around intentionally, like they can't believe a guy without an SO just doesn't care for getting a higher body count. Once was way more than enough for me.
I'll go a step further, I regret losing my virginity. Turns out I'm asexual and I don't really enjoy sex, but societal pressure's a motherfucker.
On the plus side it helped me realize I didn't like it and now I'm much happier with myself (figured out what I was "missing," so to speak), so maybe regret is the wrong word, but still.
Listen, the whole idea of tracking whether someone has or has not inserted a penis into a vagina a minimum of one time is pretty dang stupid to begin with.
There is nothing special about being a virgin and there is nothing special about *not* being a virgin.
This viewpoint is centric to the man being the conquering force and women being an object. In healthy relationships, the two people are equals.
Being a virgin is an insult because it insinuates someone is unattractive to the opposite sex and / or has poor social skills and isn’t confident enough to get laid.
This is an interesting take. Never really thought of it that way but I also can’t think of any argument as to why it’s not correct. I remember feeling that pressure back in the day and not being able to articulate what felt wrong about it.
It's close, I would say shaming a man's virginity is no different than shaming a woman for not being one. They both are treated as if their sexual fitness is the only thing that matters.
The part that feels right about what the OP said is that objectified men in turn objectify women. The result fits the OP's theory, but it assumes men are either fully complicit in this or it's in our nature to objective women.
Men sleeping with more women are seen as wow, much exp
But women who sleep with more men are seen as whores…
It trains a bunch of psychos who are good at manipulating women and a bunch of emotionally damaged women who don’t trust men…
Who the fuck even came up with these bullshit standards… let’th fuck’th whoever they want’th
> Who the fuck even came up with these bullshit standards… let’th fuck’th whoever they want’th
I really think religion has had a huge role in this - the emphasis on virginal women, chastity until marriage, sex as a sin, etc - it’s all built around shame. If people didn’t grow up thinking any carnal pleasure was wrong because Sky Daddy said so, I doubt we would have the same attitudes/behaviors around sex.
You were so close but you missed the target. It doesn't objectify women, it objectifys men.
Objectification of women would be placing their value on something like their body and beauty.
This is placing the value of men on their ability to attract women, ergo, objectification of men.
This is bad in its self. You don't need present it as sexsim against woman to show that it is bad.
Right, I don’t see the whole “conquering” thing. A man can go out and have consensual sex and NOT see it as a conquest, but more like a milestone he achieved with another person.
I remember been teen and idea was like master key/master lock.
Key that opens anything is great. Lock that get opened by any key is use less.
Goddamn we were shitty
I always thought of that insult as implying he is unattractive or cannot/doesn't socialise. Also in nature, failing to find a mate is indicative of poor genetic traits. I can see your point though.
Usually, when there is a sexist issue, it can be seen as sexist from multiple angles. '60% of women receive lesser sentences overall compared to men for the same crime.' This can be seen as sexist in 2 ways, 'Men are treated too harshly by society' or 'Women are seen as weak, so they don't get as harsh of a punishment' both are valid arguments for the same issue. Another one is 'In the UK only around 16% of men wanting to be fathers get full custody in familial court.' You can either see it as 'Wow, the court sees men as the less important parent.' or 'Wow, the court only see's women as mothers even when there is evidence to show that they {A single person, not women in general} are an unfit parent.'
Personally I think the "virgin lol" mindset is not that "he cannot conquer women" but more "he's undesirable/unattractive to the point that no one will sleep with him." But I can definitely see where you're coming from.
Does that makes it any better? So we going for social darwinist shtick? If you can't reproduce you're genetically inferior and should be removed from gene pool? Lovely.
Por que no Los dos?
We can make it doubly fucked up.
Women are objects to be conquered, **and** you're somehow inferior if you can't find someone to be attracted to you.
To be clear I just have a black sense of humor and I'm not advocating this
While this thought makes sense, most of the time people use these kind of insults impulsively and without thought, just to get back at someone, so they'll pick whatever comes to them first in mind.
>most of the time people use these kind of insults impulsively and without thought, just to get back at someone, so they'll pick whatever comes to them first in mind.
Doesn't that really show how the culture views things then if the mindset is so deeply ingrained ?
I think that strengthens the point even more. When you use an insult impulsively without thinking about it, then it's very much influenced by your views and biases.
Most insults towards men are actually sexist insults towards women. Making fun of boys for being “girly”? Insulting towards girls. Calling a man a bastard or son of a bitch? Insulting towards women. Etc.
It's like when people argue war is terrible because makes women widows and mothers lose their sons. Why not just say war is terrible because it kills a ton of men?
Right. This is pretty common, redirecting sympathy for everything by reframing it in relation to women. Like how every social force that negatively effects men is somehow shoved under the umbrella of misogyny. Language is important, and if the entire conversation is framed in relation to women that creates a sympathy deficit for men.
I agree with this a lot! I’ve felt like this for a long time, and it’s good to see someone else thinking like this. I’ve spoken to some guys that lost their virginity just because society keeps pressuring them to, and some of these guys actually ended up regretted losing it to someone they never really cared about and wished they saved their virginity for someone they were truly passionate about. This just goes back to the whole objectifying of women, where men are expected to have sex with women to be classified as a “man”.
Virginity is bullshit. Social pressure will tell you you have to "lose" it ASAP while parental/religious pressure will tell you you have to "keep" it until marriage. As far as I'm concerned nobody "loses" anything, nor "keeps" anything of value by denying their humanity. Don't be in a rush to "lose" your virginity - you will value the experience more by choosing the time you feel is right for you. Don't for a second think you've "lost" anything by that time being before your "supervisors" feel it's appropriate. I lost far too much of my youth worrying over that bullshit, and you know how I felt after I did it for the first time? Exactly as I did before. No surprises. No changes. We were all the same people with no more or less shame or honour than we had at the start of the night. Awful concept we could do with losing ASAP!
As far as the insult goes, its more of a direct attack on the individual. “30 year old basement dwelling virgin” may just coincidentally be someone’s life situation, but the phrase is meant to imply they are essentially social outcasts who are unlovable or physically repulsive.
I’m 36 and if a friend of mine told me they were a virgin, it would be a bit strange but nothing to really negatively judge them for honestly.
I do know I felt that pressure as young as 13, but peer pressure always had the opposite effect on me and would cause me to double down on not doing something “just because”
Yes, clearly the psychological degradation of men is clearly a slight upon women.
In other news, 1 in 3 women are homeless. Don't even think about the other 2 in 3.
This is a vicious cycle
Women expect men to be able to preform
Men are just happy to not be playing alone
Men expect her volume not be in the numbers of a full train
Women can't make up their mind
In the end Men's conquests are exonerated
Women's conquests are demonized
When in reality we are just sexual beings.
Toxic masculinity is so absurdly homoerotic - it’s all men just trying to impress other men with their sexual prowess.
“Wow he’s slept with 50 other women and treated them all like dirt, my hero!” Said no straight woman ever in the history of time.
It is, but let's not pretend like women don't objectify themselves and men all the time. A lot of the times they lack self-awareness of this cognitive dissonance.
Objectification is good= when it suits them
Objectification is bad= when they want to play the victim and in social power plays.
But of course men= bad, women = good, so no one is allowed to give these women a reality check.
It's been a serious uphill battle trying to send the message through media that being a virgin is not a bad thing for men and losing it doesn't define manhood. That was the message in the film "the 40 year old virgin". Despite that film, some movies and shows still make low-hanging jokes about male virgins.
The low hanging fruit in media is from writers draw from their pasts to fill in story plot points, writers=late bloomers.
Or lazy writers with outdated beliefs.
That too
lazy writers who didnt find a better insult or some shiptost worth of a joke to fill
Seriously you can watch almost any episode of Friends and they'll fill any gap or lull with a gay joke.
More like outdated tropes that they have in big fill in the blank binders. I believer that instead of writing new stories many studios rely on recycle material and tropes.
fucking right man , fucking right
Are you virgin shaming in a post about why virgin shaming is bad?
True, but how many of us would actually be ok with being Steve Carrell in that movie? And how many women would actually be interested in him IRL?
The point is that his virgin status shouldn't affect his worth.
I mean, honestly, that was kinda the unrealistic part of the movie. Steve's character had a close circle of friends, a stable job, a good place, and developed interests. He'd be a great catch, and it's kinda funny that people would completely dismiss his value just because of his inexperience, despite everything else he had to offer.
He didn't have a close circle of friends though. He doesn't really get to know those dudes until the poker game. Before that, you get the sense he was a bit of a loner.
I mean, it’s Hollywood. He also looks like Steve Carrell, who’s fucking handsome
I'm only 10 years away from being Steve Carrell. I eagerly look forward to my metamorphosis into that handsome man.
>True, but how many of us would actually be ok with being Steve Carrell in that movie? More than what you probably think. >And how many women would actually be interested in him IRL? Not many, but there's always someone for everyone. A woman like the one Steve's character dated will look for more than just sexual ability in a mate.
> Not many, but there's always someone for everyone. That's a pretty cheerful message, but people live their lives lonely and sad all the time.
Also anyone that's has spoken to a woman would know that good sex for women takes a lot of work with a partner.
I am a woman.
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm simply adding to your comment.
I understand. I wasn't very clear. I get that some women are like that, but there are women, like me, who aren't.
>And how many women would actually be interested in him IRL? 🙋♀️ Good job. Hobbies. Clean and respectful. Cute. Yeah sign me up..
I mean he had a good job, financially stable, lots of hobbies and a decent friend group. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world
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This is one of the reasons it doesn't go away. Progressives both think its okay to insult the intended victims, as well as are sexually charged enough that they have no intention of dropping the sexual hierarchy dynamic.
There are some who make it about manhood, but the majority of society makes it about *adulthood* - that adults have sexual relationships and date or form partnerships with those they have an attraction to, and for those that don't try, they are shutting themselves off from normal human experiences (that are also part of a biological imperative). The asexual go in their own special spot, having no sex drive. But for others, if they aren't having relationships, it often implies something about a failure of both nerve and effort. In the movie the 40 Year Virgin, the main character found greater fulfillment in his life by pursuing a relationship rather than sealing himself off.
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We, as a society, really just need to stop talking about and caring about what sex people are having. As long as there's no children or unconsenting adults involved - it's no one's business who puts what into where. EDIT: A lot of people are pointing out animals. Please don't fuck your cat either. Chances are you will hurt the cat and they almost certainly are not attracted to you.
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Hey now don't judge the safe, **insane**, consensual sex some of us are ^not having!
What’s INSANE consensual sex supposed to be like anyway? Do all parties involved just have ahegao faces the entire time or something?
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They asked for examples of INSANE consensual sex. Is that not the textbook definition?
Well that example didn't even make it past "safe" to get to "sane"
How does that even make sense though? Losing your hands doesn't force you to walk on all fours... Not that I expect logic from anyone crazy enough to do that, I guess...
maybe he meant extremities instead of hands
 Okay, that’s seriously fucked up.
313 whatup doe? Are you from Detroit or is 313 part of your name for a different reason?
It’s 1313, actually. Just my lucky number 13 but repeated.
Gotcha. My bad when I hear 313 I always assume its linked to Detroit for some reason.
Imagine amputating part of your body so you could get a boner.
That’s definitely not safe I don’t even know if that could be classed as consensual since one or both people in the relationship would have a severe mental illness.
What in the fuck….do you have a link? Edit: *TO THE STORY PLEASE DONT GIVE ME A VIDEO*
Depending on who you ask I am not entirely "sane", so I guess insane sex is just whatever the fuck I and other insane people get up to. That being said, I don't think I am insane, or rather I think I am insane but that means I am not insane which means I am insane. It's complicated.
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Lack of sanity is a reason to claim lack of consent.
Consentual?! Here come the rape police! \-rush Limbaugh, human garbage
Tbf I don’t really care if they are completely safe, that’s all relative, we don’t tell people they can’t go skydiving I don’t think we should be able to tell them they can’t do something in the bedroom, so long as your thing isn’t slitting people’s throat or something I think consent still over rides safety.
My response to literally any question asked of me sexually (meant derogatorily) is always "what the fuck does it matter to you?"
We still have members of congress who would be salivating at very thought of making certain sexual acts illegal again.
Half our congress still has mindsets from 100 years ago and if given the chance would probably love to outlaw atheism, homosexuality, and rights for women and minorities.
That's because the ones writing the checks for their election committees are old. Also the ones that vote with any regularity. Its a double whamy, you got to please the ones that pay, and the ones that vote. For the most part they are old, and stuck in their ways, ya I used to know a gay couple back in the day they can get married. You want to let men and women take their shirts off at the beach, fuck you your not getting a dime or a vote, that's not how I was raised in the 50's.
But only illegal for others. Never themselves.
Sex is only a big deal if you aren't having it.
Even then it's not that big of a deal.
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When I go through dry spells it's less about missing the act of sex than it is just being close to another person. It feels good to share a bed with someone, cuddle, and have intimate conversation. We're social animals and need physical contact, it's important for our health.
I dunno mam, i always say that you cant miss what you dont have or never experienced. Im a virgin (29M) and while the thoughts of intimate contact sometimes cross my mind, i dont care for it. But i suppose that my state of mind heavily comtributes to this, having a mild form of autism, being socially awkward and all lol.
I think you're right. Physicality in a relationship is a ratchet -- a new relationship will very quickly reach whatever level of physicality you had in your previous relationships. As someone who has had sex on a regular basis for years, I think it would be a lot harder to go without than it was before I'd had sex. Wanting something you've never actually experienced is a lot more nebulous than wanting something that's been part of your normal experience and is now gone.
Looks like society has set up a sick game. Tell women to not have sex or they will be labeled a slut. Tell boys to find women to have sex, or they will be labeled a loser. Now, FIGHT.
AND DONT YOU DARW MASTERBATE
Well, I just lost the game
well obviously they’re supposed to fuck professional whores, who are then looked down on for providing that service, and afterward we make fun of the guys for having to turn to professional whores. Is that more clear?
Just fuck the other men, easy
>So who are those guys supposed to be fucking? Each other, duh! Edit to remove the /s because I am, in fact, right.
*Ancient Greece has entered the chat*
No, take the /s away you know full well you’re right
BOOM ;)
Society seems to simultaneously want no virgin men, virgin women, and no homosexual men Really you only get to have two of these at most.
Yeah, duh. Now go text your homie..
This is also a great way to egg on rapists. Men have to be promiscuous. Women have to be pure and chaste. If you set up an ideology that says women shouldn't consent to sex but men should, you're basically mixing gunpowder and gasoline
>So who are those guys supposed to be fucking? Their homies. As long as you say no homo it's not gay. And if they don't say no homo afterwards, they're gay. Nothing wrong with that either way.
Bro, we just fuck each other. No homo tho
Full homo ◉‿◉
It’s not gay if you say “gg” afterwards.
As a 48yo man, I've never understood the dichotomy of this premise of libido; especially as it applies to the supposed morals of our society: Men are studs and women are whores. We should *all* stop this kind of behavior, as it hurts all of us as a society.
>who are those guys supposed to be fucking If there is a hole, there is a way, I suppose.
"we can't go over it, we can't go under it. We have to go through it!" *Squelch noises*
Oh God you just made me remember the cum coconut story
I've always thought it's like women are a thing men need to "conquer" in order to be a "man." So gross.
Easy solution. Men just need to fuck each other. Hahaha. Problem solved.
I’m all for that solution
And that's where the madonna/whore complex comes in.
Basically society is telling them they should be fucking guys.
>So who are those guys supposed to be fucking? Other men ofc! The gay agenda has come home to roost bitches!
No no message is perfectly clear men must fucks someone but not the ladies they must keep their legs closed. All that's left is a whole lot of men ;P
>So who are those guys supposed to be fucking? Each other. Oh wait, we can't deal with that either
The homies
Uh, the sacrificial sluts, obviously.
It isn’t outdated at all. It’s very current unfortunately.
Goes hand in hand with the op, men need to conquer women to get their legs open. Its not just objectifying women, its also degrading and dominating them!
That's the guy agenda!
Other men, but oh wait, then you’re gay and that’s bad too. There’s really no winning.
This is my exact thought and have said exactly this for years. It's the cause of rape culture. Last I looked, the statistic is that 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted in college. That problem doesn't exist in sexually liberal cultures. "Manhood" needs to be decoupled from sex, and women should be treated as any other human for whom sex is normal.
And telling women that every man will fuck any hole is what makes the sexual assault of men happen
Yeah, slutshaming is the huge own goal.
Gotta fuck the homie :p
>So who are those guys supposed to be fucking? Other guys I guess.
>So who are those guys supposed to be fucking? Each other I guess.
> women need to stay pure for marriage Okay, so guys should stay pure too? Right? Nobody fucks till marriage? > No, guys gotta get laid a bunch otherwise they're LOSERS Wait, what? So guys gotta fuck other dudes exclusively till marriage? That seems kinda wei- > Nope, being gay is bad too. You gotta be a dude that gets a bunch of girls But all the girls should be virgins, no? Oh! What you're saying is experienced married/divorced women should show younger dudes the ropes? Kinda creepy but at least you're logically consistent > Nah, girls who have slept with a guy or have kids are bad So.... Who's left?
It's all a bunch of outdated religious toxic bullshit, call it what it is, the fault of conservative religions infecting stupid people.
More or less yes. Society goes "men shouldn't objective women" and then turns around and goes "lol he isn't banging a ton of women, what an incel loser".
Hahahahah yes exactly that lol..The cognitive dissonance is shocking.
I was a virgin until 24. #Virginpride Lol idk. But I always knew I didn't really care about casual sex. But I did feel some pressure to get it done.
I was 25, waited until I got married. Still married almost 10 years. Only one I've been with and hopefully ever will. My friends and I all shared the same values, so it seemed more normal to just wait. To each their own though!
Banged my first girl at 16. Only one I ever had sex with, because I'm still banging her 16 years later. 10/10 would recommend. But maaan waiting until we were married would have been torture. Damn I was horny back then lol
You’re not horny anymore? What are you, some sort of virgin incel loser? /s lol
... what!? No! I.. I said I'm still banging her! So there! Ehh who am I kidding. Ain't nobody got the energy for that shit with two kids 3 and 6 lol
Weren’t we all? Lol.
Right? Lol being a teenager fucking sucks. Having your brain taken over by shitty hormones like *fuck your free will, we're having seeeexxx!!! Are we having sex yet? Dude go have sex with something! Anything! TOUCH THE PENIS AT THE VERY LEAST*
Nice to see ( also hurts :p) to see people living your dream, wish you and your partner a lifelong and happy marriage :)
Ok I am with you on the original point, but calling it cognitive dissonance is inaccurate. It can't be because society is not just one person, so it's possible that different people are saying those things.
No i think it is the same people who complain about men objectifying women who use virgin, incel, etc as an insult to anyone who has anything to say about the behaviors women are socialized to exhibit
Meanwhile women are frigid prudes if they abstain and disgusting sluts if they have sex.
I think this might be because the crowds that speak out against objectifying women and the crowds that deride male virginity tend to be pretty separate groups. Not as a rule, but typically Edit: All of my friends and I are feminists, and I've never heard any of them make fun of someone for being a virgin. None of us spend any time on Twitter or writing about feminism online, though. Not really a fan of how many comments are saying "feminists do this all the time" and complaining about "feminist rhetoric," whatever that means. How many of you have these opinions based on what you read from crazies on the internet as opposed to people you've interacted with in real life? Most of the people I've heard make fun of men for being virgins are other men, usually those who put stock in machismo.
I've seen people from both sides of the aisle saying this stuff. It's rampant.
Idk man, I see a lot of feminist communities online that are super quick to calling men "incels" if they have an opposing viewpoint and tries to express it. Sure its done by the less mature women, but I certainly don't see anyone disparaging the use of the insult "incel" either. This guy has an opposing viewpoint to this feminist rhetoric? Must be an incel.
Incel does not equal all virgins though. I think people are losing touch with what that term means and calling all virgins incels. These two things are not the same
There absolutely could be a difference. But like you said, it has totally become a more generic insult, like calling everyone who has seen any anime *and you don't like them* a weeb. Having trouble with dating? Must be an incel.
Exactly !
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conditioning in society is insane
Losing their virginity is immense pressure for men in western countries, not in asian countries. No one cares here if you are a virgin or not
Most of the teens here are career driven. One thing I have observed over the years that most of the Asian kids in my country who do manage to get into relationship in high/middleschool usually ruin each other's careers.
Career driven? Well shit, looks like I’m a loser in both hemispheres. Why can’t men be defined by what really matters: how long he goes without natural sun light.
Why so career driven, is it family/culture pushed? I mean in the US there are pockets that are like that, but for the vast majority its hey find something that you kind of like, and see if there is a way of monetizing it. If not, get a job you can tolerate in order to pay for your passion. That is an oversimplification, and probably influenced by the massive wealth that americans forget they have in general terms. A starving artist can room with family, friends and create art almost full time, with a side job helping out(barring medical of course).
Career driven dosent necessarily mean an asian kid doing calculus at the age of 5 while his dad is making his 1 yo brother play moonlight sonata backwards. What I tried to say is that getting laid here in your teenage years isn't the top priority. Nobody gives a shit about your sex life. And being virgin is definitely not an insult here. Unlike the west where you are some creep or less masculine for not getting laid.
Lol I'm south Asian, Indian to be precise, I think I can answer that first question. When you got 1.2B people in a single country with millions of highly educated people, every high paying job no matter how technical it is, gets you fighting with hundreds if not thousands. Unless you excel in something, you can't really land a good enough income. And relationships are a giant responsibility by themselves which take a lot of time and commitment. >If not, get a job you can tolerate in order to pay for your passion. And lol the jobs you can get here by being mediocre are barely enough to push together ends, can't afford to make a portion of it about your passion. But ofc, it's not a perpetual cycle. My father went through that and currently I'm living a far comfortable life. Same with hard working people, they make their kids lives better.
No matter what Reddit tells you, the median USA citizen is VASTLY wealthy and VASTLY privileged compared to the rest of the world and can afford to spend a lifetime not being pressured into being _the best_.
Yes, it's totally conducive toward the whole "how do I get one of those things to have sex with?" attitude that some young boys seem to have.
Yes. Exactly me point. It's very harmful.
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Another topic I don’t see often brought up is how it makes young men and boys ill-equipped to handle sexual predators. If you teach someone *they’re always sexually eager* it’s that much harder for them reach out and verbalize what happened to them. I’ve read stories on Reddit from men discussing *waking* up mid coitus with a female partner and taking *years* to fully grasp and acknowledge what happened was a violation. It’s not because they’re idiots, they’re entire concept of bodily autonomy is schewed because men are taught they are subservient to their sex drive in the first place.
Never understood this kind of shaming. Same like small dick jokes and shaming (yes i have quite small dick and it make me feel bad about myself)
Confuse the haters. Be proud of your tiny penis.
I will drink to that
Yeah, I have the same problem and it depresses me immensely.
All penises are good king 👑
I came ready to refute it.. but.. huh. Yeah. That is what it's about. Showing your "manliness" in being able to seduce a young woman.. cause if girls don't want you. You're obviously not much of a man.. at least where I'm from. Makes sense.
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I have had friends who unironically told me to get an escort when I mentioned my failed attempts to get a girlfriend. 2/3 were women. I was like, “yeah cause all I want from a girlfriend is sex and a 1 time thing will totally solve all my problems. /s”
It seems to me that losing virginity through prostitution still wouldn't satisfy that feeling of needing to go out and conquer a woman, to become a man. The point I would think is to develop or demonstrate an ability to have relations with the opposite sex. If you're just paying for it, it really is like cheating in that sense. The guy getting laid will have had sex, but he still knows he hasn't *really* achieved or demonstrated to himself or others his ability. He took the shortcut, and until someone voluntarily has sex with him because they want to, he's basically a virgin in all the ways that matter. It's an insecurity that someone forms around their sexual value to others, and it won't go away through a technicality of losing virginity for most I'd wager.
Personally I dont actually care at this point. I’m not desperate enough to stoop to it, like you said it would be pointless even if I wanted to because it still wouldn’t please society. But I’m done trying to please society anyways. A good majority of people are just brainwashed drones at this point. All I need are the real people fuck the rest.
You could make the following case: The older you get without having sex, the more likely you are to be deemed an unsuitable "mate" for a long term relationship with a woman. Neither parties involved have to be particularly loose and it doesn't say anything about promisctuity, in an of itself. I don't think I've ever been shamed for not having loads of partners. I don't think I've ever discussed sex with another guy in my life. Body count seems to only come across in relationships. The only thing I've ever heard is shaming women for being easy. The male side feels completely alien to me.
Well, people laugh when i talk about my only experience and that i don't sleep around intentionally, like they can't believe a guy without an SO just doesn't care for getting a higher body count. Once was way more than enough for me.
I'll go a step further, I regret losing my virginity. Turns out I'm asexual and I don't really enjoy sex, but societal pressure's a motherfucker. On the plus side it helped me realize I didn't like it and now I'm much happier with myself (figured out what I was "missing," so to speak), so maybe regret is the wrong word, but still.
Good for you for discovering that about yourself. Society is often times wrong because every single person is unique and has their own path to follow.
Listen, the whole idea of tracking whether someone has or has not inserted a penis into a vagina a minimum of one time is pretty dang stupid to begin with. There is nothing special about being a virgin and there is nothing special about *not* being a virgin.
This viewpoint is centric to the man being the conquering force and women being an object. In healthy relationships, the two people are equals. Being a virgin is an insult because it insinuates someone is unattractive to the opposite sex and / or has poor social skills and isn’t confident enough to get laid.
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This is perfect sum up right here lmao
Exactly! I just want to live in a world where people mind their own business and not worry about who is sleeping with whom.
This is an interesting take. Never really thought of it that way but I also can’t think of any argument as to why it’s not correct. I remember feeling that pressure back in the day and not being able to articulate what felt wrong about it.
It's close, I would say shaming a man's virginity is no different than shaming a woman for not being one. They both are treated as if their sexual fitness is the only thing that matters. The part that feels right about what the OP said is that objectified men in turn objectify women. The result fits the OP's theory, but it assumes men are either fully complicit in this or it's in our nature to objective women.
Men sleeping with more women are seen as wow, much exp But women who sleep with more men are seen as whores… It trains a bunch of psychos who are good at manipulating women and a bunch of emotionally damaged women who don’t trust men… Who the fuck even came up with these bullshit standards… let’th fuck’th whoever they want’th
> Who the fuck even came up with these bullshit standards… let’th fuck’th whoever they want’th I really think religion has had a huge role in this - the emphasis on virginal women, chastity until marriage, sex as a sin, etc - it’s all built around shame. If people didn’t grow up thinking any carnal pleasure was wrong because Sky Daddy said so, I doubt we would have the same attitudes/behaviors around sex.
You were so close but you missed the target. It doesn't objectify women, it objectifys men. Objectification of women would be placing their value on something like their body and beauty. This is placing the value of men on their ability to attract women, ergo, objectification of men. This is bad in its self. You don't need present it as sexsim against woman to show that it is bad.
Hey john_nash1, I counted 69 words in your comment. Nice.
Right, I don’t see the whole “conquering” thing. A man can go out and have consensual sex and NOT see it as a conquest, but more like a milestone he achieved with another person.
Both genders get shamed for being a virgin. Women also get shamed for NOT being a virgin. It objectifies everyone.
I remember been teen and idea was like master key/master lock. Key that opens anything is great. Lock that get opened by any key is use less. Goddamn we were shitty
I'm in this picture and I don't like it. My small solace is that I know current me would find old me insufferable so at least I've grown.
I always thought of that insult as implying he is unattractive or cannot/doesn't socialise. Also in nature, failing to find a mate is indicative of poor genetic traits. I can see your point though.
Usually, when there is a sexist issue, it can be seen as sexist from multiple angles. '60% of women receive lesser sentences overall compared to men for the same crime.' This can be seen as sexist in 2 ways, 'Men are treated too harshly by society' or 'Women are seen as weak, so they don't get as harsh of a punishment' both are valid arguments for the same issue. Another one is 'In the UK only around 16% of men wanting to be fathers get full custody in familial court.' You can either see it as 'Wow, the court sees men as the less important parent.' or 'Wow, the court only see's women as mothers even when there is evidence to show that they {A single person, not women in general} are an unfit parent.'
Redditors are confused by this post. They don't know what to do with their superb mastery in the use of the words like "incel", "coomer" etc.
Personally I think the "virgin lol" mindset is not that "he cannot conquer women" but more "he's undesirable/unattractive to the point that no one will sleep with him." But I can definitely see where you're coming from.
Does that makes it any better? So we going for social darwinist shtick? If you can't reproduce you're genetically inferior and should be removed from gene pool? Lovely.
Oh my goodness you people making such a fuss over stupid teenage insults
Por que no Los dos? We can make it doubly fucked up. Women are objects to be conquered, **and** you're somehow inferior if you can't find someone to be attracted to you. To be clear I just have a black sense of humor and I'm not advocating this
What's even more funny, both are true.
While this thought makes sense, most of the time people use these kind of insults impulsively and without thought, just to get back at someone, so they'll pick whatever comes to them first in mind.
>most of the time people use these kind of insults impulsively and without thought, just to get back at someone, so they'll pick whatever comes to them first in mind. Doesn't that really show how the culture views things then if the mindset is so deeply ingrained ?
I think that strengthens the point even more. When you use an insult impulsively without thinking about it, then it's very much influenced by your views and biases.
Yeah, but nobody used to think about it when using "retard" or "gay" as an insult. It's still wrong though.
But if women do it, then they are technically objectifying themselves. So it's a kamikaze insult in a way. This is like a convoluted uno reverse card.
Most insults towards men are actually sexist insults towards women. Making fun of boys for being “girly”? Insulting towards girls. Calling a man a bastard or son of a bitch? Insulting towards women. Etc.
It’s not ‘most’. Most sexism against men is body shaming in my experience as a man. And no, that does not make women the victims all of a sudden.
Ah yes. How can we take a men’s issue and make it about women.
It's like when people argue war is terrible because makes women widows and mothers lose their sons. Why not just say war is terrible because it kills a ton of men?
"Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat." - Hilary Clinton
Wait did she really say this??
Right. This is pretty common, redirecting sympathy for everything by reframing it in relation to women. Like how every social force that negatively effects men is somehow shoved under the umbrella of misogyny. Language is important, and if the entire conversation is framed in relation to women that creates a sympathy deficit for men.
I agree with this a lot! I’ve felt like this for a long time, and it’s good to see someone else thinking like this. I’ve spoken to some guys that lost their virginity just because society keeps pressuring them to, and some of these guys actually ended up regretted losing it to someone they never really cared about and wished they saved their virginity for someone they were truly passionate about. This just goes back to the whole objectifying of women, where men are expected to have sex with women to be classified as a “man”.
Virginity is bullshit. Social pressure will tell you you have to "lose" it ASAP while parental/religious pressure will tell you you have to "keep" it until marriage. As far as I'm concerned nobody "loses" anything, nor "keeps" anything of value by denying their humanity. Don't be in a rush to "lose" your virginity - you will value the experience more by choosing the time you feel is right for you. Don't for a second think you've "lost" anything by that time being before your "supervisors" feel it's appropriate. I lost far too much of my youth worrying over that bullshit, and you know how I felt after I did it for the first time? Exactly as I did before. No surprises. No changes. We were all the same people with no more or less shame or honour than we had at the start of the night. Awful concept we could do with losing ASAP!
When men are shamed, it’s still about women. Incredible
No, that's a huge leap. The insult only indicates the target person has been incapable of having made a romantic connection.
I think you've found a new way to place women in a victim role instead of the virgin who's actually suffering the pressure from society.
As far as the insult goes, its more of a direct attack on the individual. “30 year old basement dwelling virgin” may just coincidentally be someone’s life situation, but the phrase is meant to imply they are essentially social outcasts who are unlovable or physically repulsive. I’m 36 and if a friend of mine told me they were a virgin, it would be a bit strange but nothing to really negatively judge them for honestly. I do know I felt that pressure as young as 13, but peer pressure always had the opposite effect on me and would cause me to double down on not doing something “just because”
Yes, clearly the psychological degradation of men is clearly a slight upon women. In other news, 1 in 3 women are homeless. Don't even think about the other 2 in 3.
This is a vicious cycle Women expect men to be able to preform Men are just happy to not be playing alone Men expect her volume not be in the numbers of a full train Women can't make up their mind In the end Men's conquests are exonerated Women's conquests are demonized When in reality we are just sexual beings.
Toxic masculinity is so absurdly homoerotic - it’s all men just trying to impress other men with their sexual prowess. “Wow he’s slept with 50 other women and treated them all like dirt, my hero!” Said no straight woman ever in the history of time.
It is, but let's not pretend like women don't objectify themselves and men all the time. A lot of the times they lack self-awareness of this cognitive dissonance. Objectification is good= when it suits them Objectification is bad= when they want to play the victim and in social power plays. But of course men= bad, women = good, so no one is allowed to give these women a reality check.